Jeremy Lee: The Most Magical Conversation on London’s Restaurant History, Creativity, Art

39:15And he went, you wouldn't believe, you know, and I've eaten the world over three times how poor mayonnaise can often be. I'm like, wow. Wow. So just that, you know, and of course the devil is in the detail, as we always know. And it was things like, you know, if a kitchen made a really good salad or a really good bowl of mayonnaise, you almost were going, phew, I'm in safe hands. The rest of it's going to be good. Whereas many were eyes on main courses, meat, sauce, that was it. They were blind to everything else. That was a very big part of the growing up of kitchens in Britain, I think, when these cobwebs and myths and strange ideas were really just suddenly, weirdly, whatever that's about.

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42:05So if you're like prepping for this conversation is like, I didn't realise how kind of new style and design is. Oh, it's in it's in it's teenagers. Yeah, like in the grand scheme of things. How did it, how did it, how do they sort of like force into the zeitgeist? Do you know what I mean? Such an interesting thing. I, I lucked out because mum and dad were interested. You know, I saw when like when Habitat - Were you weird if you like were into that at the time? Yes. Right. Okay. Yeah, definitely. Definitely a light on your feet. Definitely, you know, or of an artistic persuasion. Possibly, or something stupid, you know, something really bonkers.

42:39Yeah. And, no, you didn't shout about it at all. And, you know, because homes back then, normally it was chintzy, flowery wallpaper, fitted carpets was the norm. And, you know, and this incredible generation that came out and were kick-started by the Festival of Britain in 1952, in a huge attempt to bring Britain, ignite Britain up again. And design was a huge part of it, but it was very London-centric. And this amazing structure, these structures were built on the embankment on the south side of the Thames, which began the National Royal Festival Hall and all that, all this, you know, suddenly brutalist architecture.

43:21And everyone's going, ooh, the Georgians, the Georgians. I went, well, the Georgians had slaves, so let's just deal with that, shall we? and then take it from there, will we? What about five families that owned it all? Does that remind you of anything?

43:34And everyone else is in servitude, bobbing and curtsying, and some of these estates employed a thousand servants. You really want to go back there? You think that's going back to the good. Okay, maybe for five people. But didn't Winston Churchill government come in and they basically only did it for a year or something? Yeah. Because it was a Labour government that did the festival of Britain and then... Yeah, he was ousted after... And they got rid of it immediately. Oh, yeah. But anything that was kept was the Royal Festival Hall, I think. Yeah. Well, amazing structures. I don't even know what.

44:05I mean, bits and scraps will be around somewhere. But it's amazing. I mean, it's well documented, really. Yeah. So that was the sort of thing that forged it into the zeitgeist. How did it begin to sort of blossom and flower into... Well, I think suddenly, you know, youth discovered sex. You know, couples could walk hand in hand. And all the old taboos were being blown away. Conception pill. Oh, God, you know, family planning. Yeah. You know, fun and games, you know. And, you know, do you know what? I wouldn't mind a kiss and a hug and a fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think it's too much to ask.

44:38Oh, my God, civilisation's going to end. You know, I know you're not going to go to a convent, darling. No, no, you'll be all right. No, I just said, no, it was enlightenment was coming. Yes. You know, and we were pulling down the curtains and they were like, enlighten. and it was all this cobwebs being dusted away and old, old notions that had hung around far too long. And really, I'd stayed there welcome where I'd just cast out, you know, just cast out, just, you know, swept up, put in the bin, taken and carted away. What did Terence teach you about, like... There was a kid who used to work for a book called Bo, who listened to the podcast, worked at Fallow, and he reached out to me.

45:21I was having a load of drinks in Clapham. I was quite drunk, to be fair. He was like, I'm doing my dissertation. I'm in design in Manchester. He was like, do you mind if I interview you to, like... And I was like, yeah, absolutely not a problem. And he was asking me some really intriguing questions about how design shapes the experience of restaurants and actually how it changes the taste of your food, right? Oh, God, yes. I feel like... OK, so you can make a most wondrous dish if you eat in a fucking shitty halls in, you know, in the dreg ends of Manchester, it's not going to taste quite as nice in sort of a place you're setting, right?

45:58But what did Sir Terence teach you about, like, design and, like, how did he think about sort of the bigger setting, how it impacted the taste of the food? Well, I think Hayes' trajectory is so interesting because he had the soup kitchen, which I think was on the King's Road way back in the 50s, and he decided he loved restaurants and realised there's no money in this. and so he went off and created um his first billion pound empire which was habitat mother care and all that um and with habitat he just wanted you know a bit like gilbert and george say art for art for the people art for everyone um telling us like everyone should have good design you know and it's would you rather have a coffee in a plain white cup or do you want some busy pattern on this that simple you know and you want fine bone china or do you want a chunky chunky potter cup or you know isn't tea and coffee better from cups than mugs a really simple thought he's devil you know he was really it all fascinated him i think that was the great thing tan it all he loved a great setting with great people sitting down on good chairs at a great table beautifully laid, magnificently laid in some instances, eating good food and drinking wonderful wine.

47:16I mean, all of it was fantastic. And you were like, wow. And mum and dad, in their very, very modest way on these coasts of Scotland, had embraced that fully. And they were part of that and they were all college students. They were makers and doers and stuff. So they were, they had embraced that early. I'd grown up with very aware of this world. And these names weren't new to me by any stretch. But when I suddenly found myself sitting at a table with Terrence, or cooking at one of his restaurants, I'm like, oh. Because that was one of the great things, because I did 18 years at the Blueprint, years after meeting him at the band.

47:53We used to have lunch every other week together, and it was wonderful. Can I remember one thing we talked about? No, do I remember it being amazing? Yeah, absolutely. And slightly in awe, a bit tongue-tied, a bit gawky. Funnily enough, still. but he was instrumental in growing my confidence i suppose i think how did he do that i think because you know the first time i did i was so tongue-tied and you know just i've got nothing to say to you i've got nothing to give you what have you and he wasn't having that wow um and the same with his sister priscilla who was equally um precious um and as close a friend as well you know and they They were just like, they would bring very quietly, very brilliantly, bring you out of yourself.

48:38And to that I'm forever grateful. How do they get, how do they do that? So to like questions or just like being? Settled. So, I mean just by, just, do you know what? Kindness. And encouragement. Wow. I really do think that's what it was. Every single time it seemed to me, I was always that kid being taken under someone's wing. Yes. I don't know what that was about. And they sweetly did that. They were very generous. And not only did we lunch at, you know, together at Blueprint, because that was work, but also, you know, would go out together and, you know, try other things. And I mean, all was generous and all was giving.

49:18Not easy. I mean, I think fascinating people aren't easy. How is he not easy? I think he could be wonderfully curmudgeonly. So that was my job, you know, we had a bad day at the office. Good lunch day. Make sure it's good. LAUGHTER Soften him up slowly. Yeah, exactly. You know, because there was one hilarious time, he came and went off on something... For the life of me, I can't remember what it was, but I did have to, you know, just go... ..like that, just go, you know. And then he looked at me and I went, feeling better? Shall we just have lunch now? LAUGHTER And I could be that cheeky on a very rare occasion.

49:55you know we just go that's a well so was he kind of when you say curmudgeon was he sort of stuck in his old ways or like well what we didn't know at the time was he was being really deviled by a bad back that he couldn't treat because the treatment it required was at odds for the medication you could get back I mean now he'd have fixed it in a nanosecond sure so we didn't know he was in a lot of pain right and he was a very busy man I mean he had I mean he authored I don't know how many books he authored well I mean the shelf is I mean it's probably the length of this table yeah um and there was a design company the Conran shops Conran architects I mean Conran restaurants I mean it was huge what he did you know and he had an elephant time-sized brain and mind um you know but it was a lot you know I just think you know an old man are combustionly I mean it just goes with the turf you know here we go territory yeah take me into like right into the apex and kind of the the cup paint the colors and the smells of the blueprint cafe um because that was like down in is it the chad thames which back then was like it was kind of a no man's land oh god yeah he really kind of well his his lovely story is that he was on there was a gathering on one of the dutch sail barges for some dean and the sales there of tire bridge went up they sailed through and towns was just looking at the ruins of all these wharfs along the south bank and just going what is this these are all bang in the middle central london addresses that because they're on the south back have just been left to rack and ruin you know and what is this you know no longer are these vast fleets of merchant navy ships coming in and you know that all that's practically gone so what's happening with all this and so he could and so that was the big thing he could conjure and see what butler's wolf could become and so and indeed that's what happened and on the other side of butler's the other side of an empty plot uh was the old pno office um that you know standing empty yeah so terence bought the police for that as well.

52:11And then he created the design museum. I want a museum and I want a design museum. And I want to show good design to people to look at. And to get the last cash injection required to open it, the front of the design museum had, it's almost like these steps going up in these terraces. And the Piano Nobile on the first floor, amazingly, Terence was the one who just said, oh, God, he said, why does everybody want to go to a cafe and buy rubbish bag of crisps, really rubbish bowl of soup for a fiver, and think that's good? He said, this is wrong. He said, we will have a cafe for coffee and cake and biscuits and what have you, for sure, and we'll do good salads, you know, that whole culture.

52:58But the blueprint was going to be opened as a restaurant, and it would just be sited on the first floor of a museum. that was dedicated to design. What did it look like inside the restaurant? Oh, it was beautiful. How did he do it? Well, he did it very plainly because I don't think they had a pot to piss in by this stage. I think all the money was in the bricks and mortar of the Design Museum. Yeah. So we went in and it was just this huge stretch of pale oak floors and these two big massive white columns that were the service areas. And they were redolent of an Eames table, Murray and Charles Eames.

53:36So they were white formica, I think it was formica, and this lovely wood trim and bentwood chairs. And those were the round tables, so in different sizes running along the windows. And then these beautiful red-topped, like classic Paris French bistro tables, and this wonderful red formica, with these gorgeous big thick legs, and then the bentwood chairs in there. And then on the walls were all photographs of all the designers. redolent of what David Bailey did for Le Caprice. These were all the covers for the Blueprint magazine. Wow. So it was all that thing, hence where the name came from. And then this incredible light, because it was the whole wall facing the Thames, was glass.

54:26Wow. And this enormous terrace that had this great huge awning that spanned the length of it, which I think at the time, if I'm right, was the longest awning in Europe. Wow. Yes, because it was easily the length of Corvadas, if not a bit more, I think. And we were four London townhouses. I mean, it was colossal. And it was amazing. It was absolutely beautiful and so simple. And it was David Mellor cutlery. What did that look like? Beautiful. It was the Odeon. So it was very simple stainless steel and quite stumpy tines on the forks, but a beautiful black almost. Wow. um handled black handled knives that were lovely plain white plates plain round white plates so you're a cousin of this but even whiter um and i think it was all a pilco or peluva classic french white plate that we had and that was it that was all it was and she was a beauty and folks used to say 18 years and i said you know you know lifers get less and i went i know i said but you know i'm a what am i going to be i said how do you beat this i mean i'm looking down on the i walk i cross the thames every morning i can take my pick to go to the borough market or down to spar terminus you know and all i mean amazing wealth of food producers and suppliers all in the hinterland um which was amazing and that would that was unforeseen that grew through my tenure um and there was the pool of london and the tower and you went doesn't it doesn't get better than this yeah and i'll bet you i end up in a basement if i do leave here hello that's amazing in terms of um like just going back to like what he taught you so about like you know kindness breeds confidence allowing you to up and if anything amazing yeah like i love people who push the boundaries or like do things differently or create amazing things like is there any other sort of principles that not with work or life that he sort of taught you kind of was through osmosis.

56:31I think you learn a lot from like people like not necessarily by what they actually told you, but just by being around them. Well, I think one of the great things is that he's very worldly. Well, it's a big world out there. And one of the things that definitely made our generation of chefs stand out was we'd holidayed abroad. We'd been to France and Italy and Spain and eaten abroad. so we knew about tomatoes and garlic and olive oil, nor with any great plan to do anything, but we understood food culture, you know, and we loved restaurants. And it's hard to imagine a time when there wasn't a restaurant seen in the whole of the United Kingdom.

57:13There were very tiny little oasises here and there, but for the most part, it was posh and privileged and really quite dull, I think. I swear they're all in hotels, weren't they? Yeah. Yeah, it was like a... and a bit snooty, you know, and a bit Terralini tablecloths. and you'd be like, ooh, I don't know about this. How did he help you find your unique style? Well, because I was a bit of a blank canvas because I think, like, a lot of my lot... I mean, you know, we didn't eat in restaurants. I mean, we didn't have the money for that. We ate at home. You know, we went to a restaurant. It was once a year on New Year's Day when Granny took us to some pocheteau for a big lunch.

57:48That was it. So the restaurant thing, I think that's what's so fascinating for me, looking back on it, was I literally grew up as a cook. as the restaurant business in the British Isles grew and British cooking began slowly to come to the fore. And there's a great, it's the spider's web that is the family tree now of all the characters involved is colossal. But way up there is Terence, definitely, as a founding, you know, massive presence in all this to make it work. And I think his real medal of honour went to bubendum because because he simon hopkinson was cooking at hillier and terence had fallen and caroline who he's married to at the time had fallen in love with him and just said you know your food's just amazing and because it was a perfect roast chicken and you know just beautiful food um and probably what we would have been called back then a sort of bourgeois bonfarm style of french cooking it was very much the fall back then and when you know i mean all cycle past michelin building which was not in a state but you know you know very well yeah like was that what was that would have been coming up to the mid late 80s right and before that what was it was a guy it was a michelin it was literally michelin hq that was the guy the building you pulled up to to get your tank filled to go barreling out west okay now yeah it was a garage it was a garage they could do absolutely garages like that these you know i mean off the charts beautiful magnificent i believe the expression is a fuck off well yes an absolute fuck off guide but a garage nonetheless and terence just turned it into this um along with funny a brian the great brian henderson who was the architect who was his great chum who's fergus henderson's dad was the architect for it and they were great great chums so that was another whole um side to this incredible tale we all became great chums um and yes because fergus is not How many is he the same age as me, but has a sister two years younger, called Annabelle?

1:00:00You couldn't make it up. Wow. You know, strange things. That's the other thing, you know, we were talking about, like, I love the idea of synchronicity with all these different things linked together. Yes. Like, completely random things. But one is, one thing I wanted to explore with you, mate, is like architecture and food and how those two things are. God. But like, yeah, because Fergus was, he's a trained architect, right? Yes. yeah yeah so like what have what have you learned between those two kind of worlds colliding well we i mean we sort of i mean it's very sweet because we really did just fall into each other's arms you know without even knowing each other and just and you know kindred spirits but from very different roots um and fergus you know i don't think like a great many like alistair never worked with anyone he i think he just went into his career and simon hopkinson barely ever worked for anyone they just went straight into their careers as well whereas i come through you know you know um apprenticeship and you know step by step by step and so it's very interesting when the two those two worlds collide and they gel they didn't clash it was really interesting yeah exactly that's the it's the gelliness of the yeah which kind of they kind of melt and marble and soak into each other which kind of surprises me because they kind of but how how how so do you But I think, well, there's...

1:01:17Because we were talking about the blueprint earlier. And if you look at the blueprint back there, white walls, plain wooden floor, plain white tables, plain wooden chairs. You go to St John's, plain white walls, plain... You know, paper cloths, for sure. We didn't have paper... We didn't have table cloths. But paper cloths and bent wood chairs. You're like, wow, you know? And, you know, I didn't know what the connections were at the time. Yeah. So I think we both obviously liked that aesthetic very much. Why, when you link it to the food, is that to make the food more prominent? Yeah, so white plates primarily, why a plate is white, is so that all your attention is on the food.

1:02:00Wow. Rather than the curious, you know, the remarkable, amazing things that people do now, and the potters now are just off the charts extraordinary. But for us, and particularly our generation, The white plate was all about your eyes would be drawn right to the centre of the plate. That would be it. How do you, because that's, I interviewed Marga Henderson a couple of years ago. She's brilliant. She's amazing. She's amazing. And I asked her a lot about St John. The one thing I fucking didn't ask, which I wanted to ask her, is who does the copywriting for St John? Because you read that and it's like.

1:02:36Well, it's all Ferg's voice. That's what I was going to say. All of it's based on Ferg's voice. So that is some of the best writing ever, regardless if it wasn't even linked to the restaurant. I mean, the way it's described, like a chocolate pudding or like a chocolate tart, you're reading it like you're kind of... I can't believe you're not. I'm so cheeky and cheeky. Will he be writing it then, still? Who writes it then? Well, I would imagine what they do now is they're just going over things because, you know, Ferg is sadly not well. and so he is less and less able. But I think still really can, he does.

1:03:14Yeah. You know, so I think the copy, I mean, I think it is just a rehash of what he's saying. But that voice is him. Pure him, yeah. Wow. For sure, yes. How does, so again, as I was going to say, we'll jump around, Jeremy, but like how do you think food and words sort of intersect? Because I think that's like another really fascinating place to play because it's like, it adds a certain soul, I think, to someone's food. Even when I read your book, what do you call the fish chapter? It's like shiny little darnings. Oh, the silver little darnings from the deep. Silver darnings from the deep. Yeah, because herring were always known as the silver darnings.

1:03:53Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing way to say this is about fish, right? You know what I mean? Well, you could just write fish. Yeah, you could write fish, but that was fucking boring, yeah. But yeah, so So how do you sort of think about those two things? Well, I think words and recipes and cooking have a wonderful play with each other. I love how they come in. And I would hesitate to use the word poetry for a recipe, but there is definitely a rhythm to how you cook. And I think the whole point of a cookery book, first and foremost is to woo somebody into the kitchen. And I think what's great about it now is we finally got rid of the idea that the kitchen's a tyranny, it's a terrorising place, you'll burn spaghetti, you'll burn water, for God's sakes.

1:04:47Burn water! It's a series of actions that will result in something delicious. It's fine. And also, fuck it up, by all means, as often as you like, As if we all came ready-made. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, nobody just pulled the cellophane off us, popped us in the microwave and stuck us in front of a cooker. That just doesn't happen. Yeah, flat-pack chefs. Absolutely, they're pumping away like mad. It doesn't come... You know, it comes through years and years. And really famously, back when I was a kid, you were actually more impressive in how you got out of being in the poop than you were...

1:05:27I mean, if you sailed through it, you were boring. But if you were, if the kitchen was in full flight and all hell was breaking loose, it was how you dealt with that, you know, and how you got out of being, you know, and suddenly your section was sinking. And you went, oh God, how am I, you know, how do I handle this? And, you know, just bringing that back in was how you were judged. And, you know, it's, but, you know, if the mayonnaise splits, boo hoo. You know, or the French would wickedly say, Tompie. Or Tompice. But I mean, you know, it's, stuff happens. and what's great is getting back in the saddle and doing it again and learning from or understand maybe understanding why it happened alright I have the toy so quickly oh bugger I tried I used eggs from the fridge they should have been a room temperature done these million little things you know it's like playing what I'm word games are like that the more you play a word game the more words stick in your mind and in your subconscious so the next time you play you're oh god that's that word yes and you'll stop when you'll start linking Yeah, you're stuck.

1:06:25Because it's like it is like a tapestry. Yeah, you know, I mean, all you know, the threads you start stitching away like mad. And you know, suddenly and then you put a blue thread in and then the sort of point thread. And then I suppose there's like this juxtapositions in writing. There's probably juxtapositions in cooking and there's you could probably go through. As you said, it's like poetry, but the two things dance. Well, you know, I'm God knows. I mean, I guess I mean, many of the time I've started writing a page and then halfway through just went i don't know what that is then but no i mean you know i mean sometimes it works beautifully and you think this is wonderful in terms of other times you just stay on a blank screen and go oh my god yeah but you need but you need the fuck-ups to find the goal oh god within the lead is the goal of course of course you know it's just not you know i mean i think that's what the lure of our the world we've made now that you can go into a supermarket and i mean it's like christmas 24 7 there i mean everything's shiny and bright and they've really workshopped the lighting everything's wrapped everything glitters everything is bright and abundant there's tons of it you're like who is growing all these blueberries there's a lot of blueberries going around you know in every shop imaginable i um i interviewed franco fabini he's the yes natura um couple weeks ago he was over from new york amazing human being and he was he was talking to me about a fucking egyptian mango and the way he was describing it was like cutting it open the first time and the smells and the aura and the aura, sorry, and it was like kind of, he was saying it was like a work of art like all the sort of the red and the crimson coming through this bloody mango and I was like wow and we were talking about food markets and Fred said that you're a food market junkie, like where are some of the best food markets in London you think and where do you go for different bits and books?

1:08:11Well I think what is amazing is because I think Paris you know, generally the impression I've always had is that the bitter regret that they demolished Lial. And then it's just this gaping wound with this brutalist concrete shopping mall underneath it, this Walmart thing. And amazingly we didn't knock down Covent Garden. The structures are still there. And it's hopelessly impractical as a fruit and veg market now. But at the height of its day it was the hub of London. And what is interesting is, and I saw the tail end of it when I got to London in the early mid-80s, when the food community in the West End was still thriving, there was still a massive Italian population in Soho, there were butchers and all sorts, and grocers in Mayfair, Clark and War was thriving, there was all, you know, and now there's, I mean we even just lost Camisa the other day.

1:09:05You know, and if you walk about, Camisa and Son, Fratelli Camisa, which was the last Italian deli on Old Compton Street, which sadly closed its doors. And so that chapter's now concluded. And in Alistair Little's Soho Cooking, you can read about all this world. It was just wonderful. But Berwick Street Market, which used to be a thriving guns firing where you could buy anything, from silk stockings to Egyptian mangoes and everything in between. And I mean everything. Yeah. Everything. And so much fun. And now it's just a few coffee stalls and things, you know. And so it's moved on. But I think one of the things, miraculously, as the West End began to diminish, one of the things is all the boroughs around the West End began to ignite.

1:09:57And so when I first came to London, if you were asked a cab driver to take you to Hanne, you literally laughed at. And you went, and good luck getting back. You know, you just went. Whereas now, you know, it's the dernier cri in the last one. it's got an amazing food community and that's all the way from peckham dartford kentish town you name it all the satellites all the little villages have all you know they all have amazing bakeries they've all got amazing coffee shops they all have great pizza they all have great burgers etc etc and a lot of good restaurants as well and so i think that is really fascinating and as the west end diminished where it's went into watch the passage um the borough market was about to be demolished It was very under threat.

1:10:42Why was that under threat? Well, it was over 1 ,000 years old. It's priceless real estate. When these markets, like pubs, are sighted brilliantly, right bang in the centre of town. So it's priceless real estate. And this movement just stepped in and went, that is outrageous. What, we're just going to have developments everywhere? There's the heart and soul in the world? And amazingly, it was saved. The entire food community descended, pretty much spearheaded by Henrietta Green and Randolph and Anita Monmouth Coffee and Niels Yardieri and that whole gang and the wonderful Tony Booth. Sadly, you know, he longed the longer trades.

1:11:21Tony Booth. He was a wonderful green grocer. Yeah. He was one of the very early green grocers there. In fact, he was in Leadenhall Market. And so what's in the Leadenhall Market remains, but it's basically just wine bars and shops and, you know, for half a year. It's certainly not a trading market. Yeah. But Borough thrived and then it went through all sorts of weird machinations. God knows what. I stood well out of it. But it's now settled into an amazing mix of restaurants and dynamic and traders. And it's really great. And then this bizarre thing. I went, oh, it's so touristy. And I went, how often do you go to Venice?

1:11:58How often do you go to Rome? It's so true. How often do you go to New York? Who the... Well, what do you mean tourists? Rome's been nothing about tourist trap for 3 ,000 years you nut jobs yeah I get so bothered but I guess oh the tourists are spoiling everything but no the tourists are what keep this going actually yeah it's so mental anyhow but oh well finally I'll settle into this brilliant thing and there's Brindisa and Niels Gardeary cheek by Jarl with the ginger pig and all these restaurants thriving and all the satellites and it's and And if you look at a classic structure of a market where there's a great market and there's a great produce, you have these amazing people, restaurants will naturally thrive in the environ, which is exactly what's happened down there.

1:12:45Yeah. And then you'll consequently have really good wine bars and restaurants, you know, and it just naturally the ripple effect of good produce is remarkable. Well, that's Franco's whole thing is flavour first. Absolutely. Like flavour, everything is downstream from flavour. Absolutely. and obviously grain grain. Well, that's what we crave. I literally don't care what it looks like. We'll take all the weirdo veg. So where would you, what are some of the best markets you think in London on the sort of, as you say, the satellite peripheries? Well, I mean, Hackney is amazing. And folk get very annoyed about all the traders with, you know, baby clothes and things.

1:13:21Well, there's always been babies. Why are you getting upset about someone knitting something for a baby? Why would you get upset about that? It's so weird. You know, and it's right beside the most amazing tinned fish tinned food man with amazing tinned fish i think that's fantastic you know and you can't start the children's young enough as far as i'm concerned so i think baby grow and a tin box to the sardines is excellent shopping and then there's really good fruit and veg around there and there's a brilliant farmers market um i think they're i'm making i mean there's the hackney farm market there is the great one up on i can't remember the name of the street but it's just north of London Fields heading towards Dalston Lane I think bringing the Turkish food center there's a man you know because I'm where there's green lanes there's all the whole Turkish Cypriot thing that you stand is incredible and then there's all the the petticoat Lane craziness and all the white chapel you know with mangoes and sorry sign by sign which is amazing what pulled you to where were you living before happening because you live in Hackney now like what yes oh god oh well um a gay boy should never share a flat with his sister right it's really that it was actually that simple and we were my sister and I were sharing a flat in Soho and then we moved to an amazing flat in Covent Garden and I think I was just beginning to emerge as you know trying to know who I am, see who I was, you know.

1:14:46And so my post-sister was, she's like, OK, here we go, all right. I said, darling, do you have to go off like a stick of dynamite? And I went, I think I have to. You know, I've been a complete dweeb all my life, so it's my turn now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was like, oh, God, here we go. LAUGHTER Amazing. And she was a brilliant shopper, and one day she came back and she said, I bought a flat, and I went, fuck! Oh, my God. um so I had to get my skates on and sort myself out and so a friend of my sisters was an estate agent in Hackney and this big building had been read it had been developed and it was one of the very early ones what year was this oh god this would mean just before the millennia so we're in 99 I was you've been there for a long time now cobwebs you must have seen it really yes blossoming to what it is oh there's dust balls i mean it would literally there was a broadway market was i think there was the dove there was an amazing dvd shop there that i really miss it was brilliant um and but a little else besides really i mean so to see it now you're like wow yeah yeah you know and then you know if you say you know why you know i used to go there's all fair and how you know um london fields and sort of victoria park when they run and they go, oh no, they're like, oh no, really?

1:16:08And it's quite funny. Smug, yeah, a bit smug. That's a good bet, that, yeah. Not bad. Where do you, what are some of your sort of favourite restaurants around there, or where do you... Oh, God, lots. You know, I think Estate Tartar and Chips at Bistro Tech is a joy, love what Davey and Pablo do, and it's an amazing room, Bistro Tech. It's just this light-filled, beautiful space, and always a great crowd. I love it there. There's a brilliant new career in one called Miga. That's just opened up on Mayer Street. That's fantastic. Mangal 2 is just up the road still. There is Cappie Cecilia, which is wonderful.

1:16:53Rochelle Canteen, naturally. Lila's, of course, if you can ever get a table. Oh, the list is endless. I mean, the shopping and restaurant thing, it's really great. And I love the fact it's settled down now into just a very natural thing. How would you mean it's settled down now? Well, once you get, once you shuck that new kid on the block thing, which is a real pain in the ass when everyone sees your new hot thing. Yeah. And everyone beats a path through the door and then they move on to the next new thing, which is a very annoying business. Because the thing is, you don't want, ironically, when you start, you actually don't want anyone to come and see you for a couple of weeks.

1:17:29so you can just get into it. Yeah. Start finding your feet. And then it's not two weeks in you need a review. It's two years in. Well, two, three years down the line where you aren't the new kid on the block anymore and then you might actually need a review. Yeah. In my humble opinion. Wow. But far better for me to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because who was I speaking to? Apparently in New York, the in restaurant is way more prevalent than it is here. So it's like going to... Oh, my God. If you don't get a table in the first two weeks... It's like, oh, being in. so it's this kind of like actually opening a restaurant in New York is kind of precarious because it's like you have to be the hot thing but the hot thing you know you can't be the hot thing for so long and then before you know it but I think here there's a bit more of a kind of slower not slower but there's more kind of um people will go there more you know if they like something um which is super interesting let's talk about Alistair Little because I know you work with him and I think I read somewhere you said he was fucking hilarious and I think he's amazing, wonderful describe the first day you met him and then I'd love to know how he used humour to push boundaries because I think or do radical things I think is exactly what you said the thing to understand about Alice he's ferociously bright ferociously bright he had an amazing intellect and there was no subject on which he couldn't expand, let alone talk.

1:18:55And so, I mean, and he never stopped talking, ever. Right. You know, it was a hilarious thing. We were cooking with him in Italy, and he was backing into a fridge with a carcass, talking, and turned around, put the carcass on, and came out still talking. We were all like, how do you do that? I mean, that's just amazing. Most people just go, can you excuse me for a few minutes? I'm like, Alison, no, no, just that. It was all done. I mean, he was hilarious, and he, you know, the original Pin-Up Boy, I mean, he was... What's his route from cooking in Soho? Yes, because he told this amazing story once.

1:19:33What was it Charles Gray told him? The our famous actor, Charles Gray, was at a bar in Knightsbridge where Dudley Moore used to play the piano out the back, really properly sushi. And the doorbell rang and Alistair Little, in full tux, way before he became a chef, walked... what was he doing before he was a chef well he was a metredi he was he was studying he studied archaeology at cambridge i'm not even sure if he graduated he might be one of that lot yeah just skimmed through you know not well i don't know that's a dim chapter um and but he was an archaeologist and i just think he like like many people who ended up in the restaurant business um not for him you know I'm just said oh god I've got this great education but until one I don't want to do this it's not for me whatever the thought was so to London you went and I think you got a job anyway but at this bar as a mid-fiddy not dissimilar I think like a lot of us did just in front of house everyone who works the kitchen should do a stint from the house amazing things can happen and in this instance through the door comes Lauren McCall Laura McCall being Humphrey Bogart's wife one of the great magnificent icons of golden Hollywood beautiful beyond belief and fur coat off probably sat down doorbell rings a burn and in comes Ava Gardner equally magnificent icon of golden Hollywood and sits down and Alison has nice eyes out on stocks they're just going the sheer glamour that's performed you know immaculately craft and groomed there and then in what's Charles Grape was a very eminent famous English art um very count very brilliant who you probably remember being the he's the narrator in the Rocky Horror Picture Show right so it's his voice yes and so he comes in the three of them sit down and Alice is going oh you know just furrows out like this and then is then prompt here would you like something oh whiskey yeah gin vodka you know and he goes okay and so came back and comes back with a tray of you know what whiskey is you know frisky and something and a gin and tonic and what you know oh darling no no not glasses bottles and i think if anything sums alistair up it's that it was just always like what how can you just make this better and more fun and i think he had an enormous spirit a great sense of humor ferociously bright probably the best palette i've ever encountered and that's buying sight with simon hopkins and i think he and simon thought poles apart in many respects but arrived at the same conclusion from very different roots um and i think that's really interesting yeah going to sink sink into that a bit more the how they're because i think you described them as yeah i've read that you described as polar opposites but then as you say meet this oh god when i came to literally out the pot you know there would be this and yeah there because glass corvales i'm sorry, Burbendam was this huge Titanic of a glamorous, I mean, it was an ocean liner, magnificent and huge and ravishly expensive and, you know, very rich and extravagant, unashamedly.

1:22:47And Alistair was, well, he had cooked at 192 in Notting Hill, which is a very famous wine bar where Mary Lou Sturridge and, you know, there's a whole casted list of wonderful people there. but and Alistair cut his teeth in the kitchen there before moving to 5th Street in Soho where he opened his eponymous restaurant as it was known which was the size of this wow very modest in scale, impeccably designed absolutely beautiful and again polished shiny floorboards very Danish in its approach, black tables black wooden tables and chairs so chic and so stylish and menus printed written lunch and dinner every day beautifully designed illustrated by brian my see you know um this wonderful architect who's a great friend of alistair's um and you know printed every day i mean it was an amazing production in this very small restaurant um beautiful and the food that came out of it was you know i mean he i think probably is the one who ignited the fervor that was become this Italian Renaissance in cooking in Britain definitely and because Georgia the others at the same time as Georgia Locatelli was just appearing there of a cafe was just appearing you know and so all this was going and I do think of Alice I hadn't done what he'd done I wonder if he'd got quite got the reception it would have had well how did he because again I like a bit like I like people who can, through their brute force or personality or storytelling, can create this sort of...

1:24:31..kind of earthquake of change, positive change. Like, how would he do that? It's a great question, because I think a lot of it was learning on the way, learning on the cuff. Folk adored him, and one of the great beguiling factors to the restaurant business is that the food community is somewhere where you meet amazing people that you would not normally meet if you were a customer at a table. But if you prove your mettle as a cook, my goodness, the world goes berserk. I mean, it's... And as Fergus Henry would say, like, it's the power of chef. I thought people opened doors for you. It's bizarre.

1:25:16I've never understood it and never will. Never will get to grips with it. But it is an amazing fact. And Alistair dazzled. And when he opened Fifth Street, he was the first hot chef. He graced the cover of Elle. The first edition of British Elle had Alistair on the cover. Yes. Wow. You don't get that if you're not... So he started the rock starification of... Yeah. Oh, I mean, he wrote the rule book. And super... But with such style and panache and chic. And that's why I really liked it. And he wore it so lightly. And if it was, you know, a pasta, you know, if it was a bowl of chickpeas and pasta and seafood, which would be on the menu, would be Zupa di...

1:26:04Zupa di ceci e pesci, I think. I can't quite remember what it was. But this unbelievable bowl of deliciousness would appear. The smells, you couldn't believe, because the produce was so good. Wow. And the olive oil was always exceptional. The Parmesan was the best, you know. And so these, I mean, the soups alone were just knockout. And you felt you just sat down and there would be Marcella Hazan opening up a book in front of you. Like, this is unbelievably brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Because one of the things that was very important to remember about, not only was there a wealth of restaurants opening and this whole new talent emerging, but there were also these producers who were suddenly inspired to bring ingredients in that we'd never had access to before.

1:26:50So they were finding all these amazing pulses and ingredients in Italy and in Spain. Monica and Bundiza are bringing over the hams and anchovies from Spain, which we'll never forget. Actually, she should be sainted, basically. Really, yeah. I think she is. I think it's Saint Monica. Yeah. And make a Pope. She's a far away under... She's an amazing human being. I mean, she'd make a superb Pope. But no. Amazing. And look, hilarious. And talk about blessed, blessed are the cheesemakers. I mean, you know, she'll devil the smallest little producer, you know, and do all the paperwork for them, you know, to make sure it's all done just so the projects won't get stuck at the borders.

1:27:26How would Alistair sort of, like, lead? And what's he important about? I think that's a really... I love leading. I think humour and leadership is gorgeous. Oh, he was... That's so hard to do, but how did he do that? Yeah, he... You know, he... Well, there was an interesting one. He threw out one day, but it wouldn't matter a whit to him if the person involved was the biggest talent he'd ever encountered. If they were a wanker, they were not in the world. He wouldn't have them in the kitchen. Wow. I mean, I think it was really quite... His philosophy was really quite simple. It went, I just want to work with good folk who are good at what they do and love what they do and enjoy what they do.

1:28:06None of it's easy. I mean, it certainly wasn't... I mean, he was... many monosectomy i've said he'd be made to stick to beat his own backwards but that said it was always a joke well because you know that was the normal i mean you know most kitchens are really quite ferocious still i mean the huge steps made in the last 20 years are incredible you know and i mean you know kitchens a lot of kitchens are unrecognizable from what they're kind of yeah so how was you started as sort of right when we started our sort of conversation story in the kind of the kitchen that was called you by name, when you went into these sort of more, yeah, sort of, as you said, ferocious kitchens, more aggressive kitchens, like what was that experience like for you?

1:28:51Well, amazingly, and this is a very interesting one because it's similar, I somehow gravitated to, without giving it much thought, I think, towards kitchens where everyone had a name. I really wasn't interested in, and also we're a great, so it was great produce, good folk, great personalities, somewhere you would learn something every day, that was very important, and what became very apparent. and so I lucked out and you know and I do otherwise I'm not I'm not sure how you survive those things and also it's a career you want to be working right the way through I mean you know you don't want to be a bright light going out by you know 21 and exploding at 25 what's the fun in that yeah yeah and you're going to work your socks off you want to think no I've done my time I've studied I've graduated now I'm going to get a job now I'm going to start working now I'm going to you know and I'm going to work towards getting my own practice or my own kitchen or my own restaurant, you know, something.

1:29:53You should be on the road and it should be going somewhere and it needs to progress along the way, you know, and you want that road to go along the road, you're like, well, you know, I wouldn't mind a cushion. It's quite nice to sit on this wooden chair with a cushion. It'd be more comfortable. Do you know what? What about having a curtain up here on this window? Should we put a curtain up here? That's quite nice, isn't it? You just sort of bit by making this journey more, you know, padded. Yes. I'll need to run to the toilet because I'm absolutely dying. These do. I'm actually in love with this.

1:30:20We'll get on this QV in a sec. Oh, lovely. I'd love that glass of that water would still go around, don't I? Yeah, yeah, it's good. As I say, it just sort of jumps around. Because I think otherwise you've got to sort of let... I believe curiosity is like this kind of weird, wonderful thing, isn't it? Yes! It kind of let it into the room and just let it take you, almost like a tornado. It is really interesting. I know you're like, gosh, I know, oh, God, where's this one going? Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, yeah. I like that. That's quite good. Yeah, sorry, like, my bladder faculties sort of erode after about an hour in, so...

1:30:55Don't worry, darling. But, yeah, sorry, so we... Alice Little, yeah, his genius. And we were talking about how he... Like, how he used humour to lead, I think is what we were. Yes, well, you could see it in his menus. There was wit. Right, how would he add wit to the menus? So the menus were almost quite terse in their volume. So it would just be, you know, there would be zuppa de, you know, and to read. So the structure was always vital. He was very impressed by vital. And he always had cookery books in the kitchen as well. He was encouraged to read. And, you know, and I just think the other thing is, if you're going to spend a long day in a kitchen, you don't want to be bored.

1:31:40You know, and you don't want to be a drudge. And so he would always make it really, and he was so, he was like a live wire. He had such electricity and such a dynamic. And folk would come in constantly to see him. He was just a magnet for everyone. And it was the great glory days of, you know, the magnifical restaurant reviewers like Jonathan Meads and Emily Green and Matthew Fort and Adrian Gill and Faye Mashler and, you know, these titans. I love A.A. Gill was one of my favourite titans. Oh, I mean, they were titans. I was reading, I mean, I've read everything. I mean, he's got that one essay, which is like Morning at the Ivy.

1:32:20He like talks about like the machines in the kitchen, like being like fat sumos. And I'm like, how you can describe something like that? It's just like, oh, he's so, did you ever meet, come across him? Yes. What was he like? Because he's. Oh, he was amazing. Could not, because hilarious there, a billion years ago, when the wave, when the mood changed towards terence conran um and the mega restaurant started coming in and everyone could see that it was completely unsustainable such as oh quaglino's met cell blue button a lot of them were by terence um as when you said it wasn't sustainable but like because they were vast i mean london london's not paris i mean london can paris can support lucky pole right but even the big but even the great brasseries in Paris were flandering at that time.

1:33:08Right. The sheer scale of people you need to fill all these restaurants every day was, just didn't exist, you know, or did every, but very rarely, you know, and so I think they enjoyed exceptional success when they opened up because everyone was just amazed by them. But, you know, I mean, there are difficult beasts to manage. I mean, they're enormous. So I think they, you know, and the tide turned and Adrian, when I first met him, came to review the blueprint and I was so green behind the ears as a head chef that, well, you know, I just thought, you can't recognise him. I didn't feel encouraged to go out and greet him, otherwise that would be terrible.

1:33:51Of course, later on, I realised, well, of course you're supposed to. It's a great honour to have. So what did you do? Well, I just blushed and ran back in the kitchen and just went, oh, God, and just put my band on like this one. and indeed and that week we also had Faye Mashed at Cayman and both reviews sent us to the bottom of the pool of London we were absolutely annihilated really yeah we were blittery well not the food I think they liked the food fine but it was the beginning of Terence bashing like why are all these restaurants being made so much bigger why are all these big restaurants suddenly coming into the world you know we're not in Paris we're not New York we don't understand this culture and so that was mostly what the beef was about right but the fall I was pretty sensational.

1:34:32And we went, oh, it's over. My career is done. That's it. I should go home. What does it feel like when you get one of those? Oh, my God. It's devastating. I mean, I was in floods of tears and had to be frisked off home, destroyed. You know, and I woke up the next morning. And, of course, it is tomorrow's fish and chips. And, you know, nobody better than I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awful. And I think we're fond of us anyway. They quite like what we were doing at The Blueprint. And, of course, we got it wrong. you know, quite not too often you know, because Kitchens, I mean I was a findling, I was just, you know I was a fledgling still, I hadn't really quite found my voice, I wasn't quite sure you know, we were still, you know, I hate these terms like modern European and modern British but it was a bit like that, we were trying out stuff which Terence was very generous about letting us do and you know, all good folk should be generous about that but you've got to have your finger you've got to be there You can't take your eye off that.

1:35:32And so there was a lot going on. Yeah. And so, you know, that was that. But then years later at Corvadas, I mean, he couldn't have been sweeter, kinder and more generous and more supportive. What was he like when you, like, what was he personally like? Did you have much interaction with him? Oh, he was the most elegant and sophisticated of folk. Very erudite. Incredibly, I mean, I was impeccably dressed and impeccably groomed. and very funny and very naughty and very charming. Yeah. Impeccably charming and could hold a table like no one else. Yeah, because he'd passed away when I first started reading.

1:36:11Oh, God. I discovered him, so I think I first read... I read Poor Me, which is his autobiography, which is P-O-U-R. Yeah. And obviously, yeah, the A.A. Gill. Poor Moir, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's so good. but like the way he just the way he strings sentences together a bit like the poetry style you're like wow and the fact that he was so dyslexic and they had all had to be taped yeah yeah that's because he spoke it over a phone dictators into it yeah and then he yeah it's so no it's mad the in terms of the up stuff like i believe um i was listening to this really good podcast the other day with um this uh creative uh he's a director robert rodriguez who did, he does like really fucking off the wall films, but they're like, I like it when people just do their own style.

1:37:01Oh, gotcha. Oh my God, they're escaping me. But one of the things he was saying is like, you've got to study the ashes of your failure because that's where... The remotes of success grow from. So what about, so yeah, so how do you sort of use fuck-ups as like to become more... What is terrible is if you have a terrible service, let's say, for example, you know, it just all goes down the sink. And it happens. You know, and there's that table, there was always going to be a table of two. Whatever goes on there, it's a disaster. Just one arm, you don't have to go void the whole thing, just pour champagne down their throat because they actually hate us now.

1:37:45And they're going to poison everyone in their vicinity, in the dining room, you know, going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So rule number one you learn is accept your failures put your hands up and go what can we do to please you because we're only as good as our team and we need our customers you know going off on a tantrum because it's not working, never did anything for anyone I think that Christians have grown up enormously on that front as well and I think own your mistakes and I think the thing is when you do Groundhog Day then there's a big you know there's a big problem somewhere Right, was there a specific example of that?

1:38:21I would just say if you don't, well, I don't know about an example, but I would certainly say if, you know, if you don't analyse what the problem is and how the problem arose, just so you know to look out for it the next time, you're like, look, we did that, but we can never do that again. I think it's a very, very, very sound mantra, and you learn from that. Whereas if it's just, oh, you know, if it's a lackadaisical, oh, well, that didn't go very well, you'll just think, oh. No, that did not go very well. That went very badly. Right. And we think you might have done something to encourage that.

1:38:58Right. Would you agree with that? That's hilarious. The, um, moving on to QV then. One thing I've... Welcome. So is it John Broadley? Yes. Broadley. Broadley. Broadley, yeah. His illustrations on the menu are, like, Like, to me, we talked a lot about sort of stories and fiction, almost like the fiction of food. Like, when I read that or look at the menu, it has the sort of illustrations of, like, a fairy tale and, like, a kid's book. And it, like, adds this sort of spellbinding enchantment and excitement to, like, tucking in. Thank you for that. Yeah, but I'd love to know, like, what was the process of working with maybe Eddie and Sam?

1:39:41Like, how did that come to be? Oh, God, it's a lovely journey. Create that. Because it's so iconic now. but like oh god it was amazing well it was a very very strange time and i was i'd hugely underestimated for leaving 18 years at the blueprint which feel like massively i didn't i didn't what was the most shocking thing um well it was just a huge change yeah you know i mean imagine like an 18 year old going out into the world for the first time you know i mean there was a touch of that yeah um and into you know this gargantuan building in the middle of soho and I was used to this gentle little room on the gentle lapping waters of the Pool of London on the south bank of the River Thames.

1:40:19Had your mom for the... Oh, yeah, I'd sat around and buy a bag of apricots and elderflowers. You know, it was charming. You know, and suddenly I'm in this ferocious wild building. You know, there was just teeming with its extraordinary history. And Sam and I and Eddie, I needed to get to know each other. And so one of the things was I said, well, you know, look, I'm not coming in to rip off. all you've done beforehand, that's just silly. That's not what this is about, we're partners. Or were then anyway. And then what came through was the menu that the boys had created for the first manifestation of Kovadas, which was so beautiful.

1:41:03I mean, it was like eating in the Orient Express. I mean, the detail and lavishness was just, you know. What was on the menu? Oh God, it was wonderful then. I think what was interesting with Philippe was the chef then, that he just, he was French and just couldn't understand what English, which food was. And indeed, few did at the time, really. You know, because it was just emerging still. And so it was really good produce. But the world had changed, you know, when we were in turmoil again. You know, not for the first time, certainly not for the last time. And then I'm sorry, I said, look, you know, It was an unfortunate set of circumstances.

1:41:44So we should celebrate what was good. And one of the really good things we could preserve was this big card of a menu. And so I started penning up thoughts and ideas for this. And the boxes came naturally, because that's classic brasserie, bistro, look. And then with Julian Roberts, who is a very dear friend, and we'd met through Priscilla Carluccio way back in the day. So there's even more threads go through it all. And I said, do you know what? There's room here for an illustration. And Julian looked up like this and went, oh, can we do that? I went, sorry, Julian in this way. So Julian Roberts, so the three J's in this are, so three J's is the moniker for Dundee, Jute Jam and Journalism.

1:42:27The three J's for the menus at Corvallis are Jeremy, John and Julian. And Julian Roberts is a brilliant graphic designer who did all the graphics for Carluccio's. and probably almost every Italian packaging you can think of. He's probably, you know, been there, you know, working his magic. Genius. And he said, oh, well, if it's an illustration you want, I think I've got just the man for you. I've been wanting to work with him forever. And that's, and it was John Brodley. Yep. And so the first menus we did were very Spartan, very plain. It was quite Presbyterian looking at them now, compared to what they are now.

1:43:05And they were slightly smaller format, And the illustrations then were much more redolent of Borden, Edward Borden and Revellius, you know, those 30s, 40s, 50s illustrators. Amazing. Very simple, very simplistic. And almost just naive and childlike as well in their simplicity. And then over the time, we started working on, you know, let's do the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang one, let's do the Wind in the Willows menu, let's do an alice in wonderland because we were mad about children's books and illustration and we were obsessed with illustration yeah what was what was the why were you so obsessed with it and what how did that link to the the experience you're trying to create with the customer it was really because the thing is you know if you looked at john's welcome it's quite it's fab some of it's really dark and right what am i you know you think you're going to meet this wild goth and you meet this charming ruddy cheek little blonde you know charming jovial chap you know we look perfectly at home on a tractor tilling a field you know you're like wow i mean how does this work this is incredible um it's a very lovely charming you know group of folk that all came together to work on these menus and then over time um you know there was a thing when sam did the big overhaul of to the first floor of the club and we put a dining room in there.

1:44:33And I said, do you know what? There's a wall there, we could put a Soho tapestry up. And Soho tapestries were made, because St. Giles's, believe it or not, just around the corner, had a great big tapestry factory, which eventually went down to Mortlake. And there were made those gargantuan tapestries that went up in the huge houses that were being built, in the 16th and 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. And as folk, well, there's not very many of those left, shall we just say, if you've got a tapestry, they sold it a long time ago. They are worth a fortune. But apparently you could still get scraps.

1:45:11People would cut bits off it. So we're like, maybe we could get bits off, you know. And then Julian just said, well, John could do... And I went, oh, we could do a Bayou Tapestry off Soho. you know and so that's what graces the wall on the first floor it's 400 years of soho history oh so what's some of the little um yeah what's it punctuated with yeah oh name it i mean you know you're you should be able to recognize that we often joke that if anyone can identify all the characters walking the streets of so so the perspectives are all slightly warped and strange so all looks like it comes from um old compton street and going up but it's the whole of civil behind it it's really fascinatingly conceived and beautifully executed and when you see the originals that he does i mean the detail is it's incredible you know he's mind i mean he is mind blowing and how does that with from the kind of um uh customers experience because um i interviewed osh at the devon shows amazing characters extraordinary man great neighbor he says you we're in the business of um the way he describes hospitality is we're in the business like our we're selling a retail product essentially but our retail product is a feeling and a story which then people take home and their whole thing is you know it's not value for money it's value for times the time spent here or like you know so i'll go and tell my friends about the menus or the pit rolls like how do you what's the story you want people to kind of share you know when they leave here and how do you sort of think about that it's so interesting i mean i think it for me it's even so i mean i think folk just they're on an adventure it's a journey and when you make a reservation it's no different to booking a train ticket or a plane ticket and you're immediately or you know you're immediately bought into right my expectations are this how so so it should be honorably you should be greeted gently and kindly and generously sat down immediately offered water bread and butter you know there's just there's just this gentle journey you go on and each step is impeccable that's the goal we want to achieve um and along the way you know these folk will be so settled and comfortable that they might have some time to actually look up from the menu or the table and actually have a look around and see where they're sitting and know them and feel they are in the right place yes and they've made the right decision and this is exactly the journey they wanted to go on and all along the way they're thinking good so far so good this is excellent and wonderful thank you and if that's your first time hopefully we will have done a job to a degree that will encourage you to come back again um because i'm particularly a bit annoyed an old darling like call vardis um relies absolutely on folk coming back time and again you know and when it's an awful expression repeat business sounds like you're going to burp or something terrible yeah i'm not going to repeat on me oh i know but you know when you see names constantly you know propping up again and again on the booking sheets you go that's well we love them make sure they get a glass of champagne.

1:48:31I know it can sometimes sound a bit sort of like wanky and nausea, but like the adventure through food or the journey through food and stuff. But like, how do you think about food as kind of being the compass through that journey? And how do you do? Oh, it's vital, you know, I mean, it's like putting on a great shirt. And you know, when you sit down to dinner, it's like you're taking a shirt out of a box and taking the wrapping off. and take things out in the collar. You go, and you can't help but feel, oh, that is quite good. It fits nicely, you know. And when it's right, it's the best feeling in the world.

1:49:09And what's been, you can see it in the staff, you can see it in the crew, it's reflected in the kitchen, it's reflected on the food. You know, because a happy kitchen makes happy food, I think. A happy crew creates happy service, you know, just imbues the building. And that we absolutely love. And if there's one, and it's probably our mantra and driving force throughout the whole building that it's you know it's a pleasure you know none of it's easy and it's bloody difficult and you know and we're you know it's strange times we live in that is for sure but not for the first time and i doubt it'll be for the last time um you know and it's annoying that it's happened again you know and you say it's strange oh I just think we are the finances and restaurants are unhinged I just think we are being squeezed I don't know why you know Sam Hart made a brilliant observation he said look you know Paris 20 years ago was the epicenter of the world and it just goes to show that's very fragile what we do it's a femoral you know and much as one would like to like and what you know opening up a bag of you a new garment the problem is you get to keep a garment you know with food it's a female it's for the moment and so there's that old maxim you're only good at your last meal and it's this hilarious thing you know we'd like to think we might people might think what we do is keep it simple and quite simple fair wow how's it not so much how's it complicated that people won't see Well, Sean Hill put it absolutely beautifully years and years ago when he first took over the walnut tree.

1:50:52He went, yeah, folk like to think what we do is really simple food, but he said, it's funny, it takes eight of us all day, every day to do it. LAUGHTER And we have got to pay our suppliers, just saying. That's such a good way of thinking. Isn't it lovely? I thought that was absolutely brilliant. Very astute. He's very clever. It is so, yeah, it's also... He's an amazing man. What's... Yeah, talk to me about him. What's he taught you? Well, I never worked with him. I've worked with people who have worked with him. I've known him. He's been in my life because, you know, Jason Loden... Just for listeners.

1:51:23Yes, he, Sean Hill was... When Rick Stein was starting in Padstow in Cornwall, Sean Hill was the head chef of our very famous hotel in Kent, I think it is, Gidley Park, and was one of the very original new generation of what were then called the Great British Chefs. And so there was Gary Rhodes and Rick Stein and Simon Hopkinson and Alistair Little and Sean Hill was in there too. And an impeccable cook. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful food. And I think Britain introduced a lightness and touch and feel for cooking. It was very singular. It's very lovely. Very singular. Well, because it's very hard to carve out your own voice in a very loud world.

1:52:20And he did just that. You know, he would take dishes that were so familiar. You know, a fish stew, for example, say a burrito or something like that. And it would be the best burrito you ever had in your life. Wow. And the ioli would punch you into the middle of next week. And the broth would be sensational and a fish would be off the charts fresh. And you just have those three things on a plate that are just superb. So it's really interesting. It's interesting what we were saying at the beginning, like the cross-section of things of like sort of fiction and books being like the synchronicity between fiction and food almost.

1:52:52It's like books, portable magic. I think like when you eat a dish and as you say, it's like that, it's very in the moment, but it can be almost like, as I know this is a fucking word, but like teleportative, you know, like teleportative. transportative sorry yeah like it has that ability just to take you oh gosh absolutely but you're still telling stories and then that story will then be passed on yes you know and also think dishes that strike a chord and they just spark a memory like oh god i remember eating something like this when we were in marseille or you know or we were on the south of france once and we ate a dish so you know wow this is amazing you know because holiday food famously never travels you know you never even do do and so i think it was quite a big step when dishes that are so famous were being practiced um i'm famous abroad i'm being practiced near a home um or were being done impeccably was it was a massive different that was a very big step being taken talk let's talk about puddings i think the difference between pudding and dessert is a is slight but also massive at the same time where where do you where what sort of restaurants you think they're really good puddings in London?

1:54:01Oh, my goodness. Other than this place. Well, St John always did impeccable puddings. Yeah. And Rochelle Canteen, Ferghamaga. I always loved their, I loved their puddings. There's Max's Very Knotty Deep Fry Bread and Butter Pudding at Cafe Cecilia, of course. Oh, I'll tell you who's got really good puddings. Morcella on... just around the corner from Exmouth Market. Right. I had a really good pudding there recently. What pudding was it? It was a delicious cake steeped in syrup. It was for dinner to create funds to send to Palestine. And I'm trying to remember who the pastry cook was. It's very embarrassing.

1:54:48I know it's a she. That I do know. But it was absolutely stunning. I think it was a ricotta and almond cake, if I remember rightly. Beautiful. um such a lovely recipe um river cafe a plate of ice creams they're magnificent um yeah and all their cakes really uh cafe deco anna always makes beautiful puddings i always love what she does she's got such a lovely touch anna um and oh god on and on and on i mean you know spring skies puddings are amazing beautiful ice creams you know petersham or heckfield uh not petersham i'm spring or heckfield are fantastic god the list is you know just amazing the puddings we interviewed have you been to the ninth in fitzrovia not yet and want to go they do like this i mean i've been there twice but they're lucky you bread and butter pudding I don't know, it's fucking orgasmic.

1:55:42It's insanely delicious. And it's just like, yeah. You just think bread, I mean, just bread, custard, fruit. How can it not be delicious? So good. How do you think about putting in sort of the journey of the story? Well, I think one of the things that I've become, that I think when I, there's this formative moment many, many, many years ago. And it was one of the very first times I'd ever cooked in a kitchen in Italy. and I grabbed an olive oil, a bottle full of olive oil, I went, gl-gl-gl-gl-gl-gl-gl-gl-gl-gl. And there was this outraged gasp from my host at the table. I went, oh, this is in Tuscany.

1:56:20I'm like, you can't. You know, and I went, I said, I'm in Italy and don't you put loads of oil? And he went, certainly not. You uncouthed out. And I was like, oh, my God. I mean, wow. Wow. All the myths ever, in a nutshell, exploded. and I went, that's incredible. And so I thought, wow, that is really interesting. So I said, how does that translate back home? And so bit by bit over the years, and it was also fueled by the introduction of all these dietries that we suddenly had to start dealing with. I think they were vegetarians and vegans, and they would get very upset if they felt they were being fobbed off with a beetroot and goat's cheese salad again.

1:57:05and so it was beholden to the kitchens to get creative. And so bit by bit, by default, we started removing butter and cream to a great part. I mean, of course it still appeared, but less and less. And amazingly, we did notice that an olive oil came more and more and more to the fore. So we do have generally three olive oils on the go. That's right. Sorry, it's always been like, three. and yes just shut up and they're just that's what we do and we make it work because it's all about produce and so more and more and more the menu itself so all the bites and starters and main courses and sides for the most part are fundamentally made of vegetable and olive oil to the fore and then whatever you know meat and fish so that when it comes to pudding we can pour in the cream and ice cream and custard and jersey cream and clotted cream and any other cream hands on crepe fraiche sometimes because we quite like that and so we can all go so that's where we can go glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug amazing never on a salad that's just vulgar and to cook with is outrageous i learned a lot from that so i think the journey that that's the journey of put there so that um you know prudings you can get your guaranteed because it's also the thing we are you know we're in soho I mean you know what what is gonna get you off a couch in Hackney when you can pop round the road down the road to wonderful things there are you know there's Dalston Stoet Newington you know there's everything you know and Hackney Wick and the Stratford and there's all sorts of stuff going on all the place what we bring you into soho and we just said wonderful puddings so That's mad.

1:58:58So almost like the pudding's... You think the pudding's almost the main event then? Not the main event, but... It's the magnet. Guaranteed. Yeah, but we would like to think we will spoil you rotten when it comes to a pudding, and it's worth the effort, and it's worth ordering. Rather than just... What's the hardest pudding to make, do you think? Like, because I think there's... I love the art... There's a book called The War of Art, which is all about, like, the creative process. And I feel like sometimes creativity... there's a war in creativity and he talks about this thing called resistance.

1:59:29And he talks about resistance, Steven Pressfield. It's aimed at writers, but it's applicable to anyone in the creative world. And he says, like, sometimes on the other side of resistance is like, is the beauty, is the thing. So true. Which pudding has had the most resistance? If that's maybe a way of... Well, amazingly, none of it. As in the one, not resistance from customers, resistance for you to make. Oh, God. That's what I mean, yeah. Yeah, no, we've never... The chocolate tart that doesn't set, I mean, you need to be Willy Wonka to make that. And that thing... Because it comes out of the oven at, say, 5 to 12.

2:00:09Lovely wobble, perfect, glistening, dark. Half 12, it's cooled a bit, and you're like, what's going on there? You know, it's kind of... It's kind of gone... It's got markings, you know. Yeah. 1 o 'clock, you're like... oh oh god it's set half on the first slice comes out and you're like oh god that should have been at five to twelve so it's very funny so i just said oh fuck it i'm not but you know we've got lots of delicious chocolate things let's not do a job you know and the sound a custard tart is all right but there's a and there's a lot when we had to work out once if you made it in the morning would it be as good in the evening so what you were serving at half one would that be as good to a table sitting at five half five and it's eating at 6 30 so we had to work all those out to see what would stand the test of time yeah um so our profiteroles are all i mean our baits i mean i'm doing the bit almost every hour yeah they've got that sort of like chocolate glistening it's glitter glittering it's unbelievable very very not a very very thin crisp shell and amazingly we fell out of love with crackling almost as quickly as we fell in love with it.

2:01:22Out of love with... You know that crackling thing when people put that mosaic thing on top of your toes. And we just said, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. So we really shouldn't be doing this. But we thought, well, give it a whirl. Let's see what it looks like. And didn't like it. And so you're right. We're resistant to change for change's sake. But all recipes change over time. It's bizarre. It's a bit of a paradox, isn't it? Yes. So we were forced to change. So for example, we suddenly, none of us, not one person in the kitchen could bake a creme caramel. And two of one, we could all say, but we all cooked creme caramel wherever we'd cooked before and never thought about it.

2:02:04They all came out like a treat. And suddenly we were deviled by eggs and all our custard, creme brulees, creme caramels, all went to port. I mean, what is this about? and it's taken, you know, on an almighty amount of thought and working out, literally down to the last gram of an egg yolk to work out what the recipe is. Now I'm like, something's changed, you know. Something really has changed. This is absolutely nuts and I don't get it at all. But the journey, it was very, we had a lot of laughs doing it. Yeah. You know, I had to look at a lot of collapsed creme caramel and just go... How did you find, that's one thing I was trying to get to because you've clearly got your very, like, steadfast sort of style in the way you do things, like, not even just in the kitchen, like, just you as a sort of person.

2:02:52Like, you've worked under sort of Terrence, Alistair Little, obviously sort of Sam and Eddie here. Like, how did you forge your own sort of style and uniqueness? Well, I'll tell you, that is an interesting thing, because I really didn't set out to create anything at all. And I lucked out, I came from a very boisterous family. You know, if you wanted to be heard, you had to shout. Yep. And then, and I was drawn to big personalities. And so you don't need to, you don't have to worry about imposing yourself on them. You just go, you've just got to, you know, march up with it. So I've never had anything imposed on me.

2:03:35It's interesting. I've not really analysed it particularly. But I did think there was a pattern of, I really liked fascinating, brilliant, very stylish, very clever, very talented people. You know, and I lucked out enormously. And to this day, I don't know how in the hell I did it, working with such over a very long period of time. And it all seeped in, you know, and it also sat beautifully with how I'd been brought up by mum and dad you know and my siblings because it was just no effortless style you know they just they just had good take us into your home in Dundee what did it look like what was on the walls oh god well it was a modern house because mum and dad couldn't afford it was amazing architecture in Dundee not a lot else but there is amazing architecture and they couldn't quite afford a big stone georgian which is what they wanted and so what they could do though was move nine miles outside to a small village and buy a plot of land and build a great big block of cheese atoll and tansom papadus there was a modern 60s eames danish-esque style very simple very plain huge windows uh overlooking just you know a wheat field at the time wow it was very really lovely and over time dad created an amazing garden with rocks and pools and terraces and and it's wildly overgrown now of course because we're orphans and you know we've still got it but you know you know it's crazy it's you know it's quite it's like the secret garden it's quite good fun um and they filled they were very good at very about marrying old and new they had a great eye for antiques there so they would marry you know habitat dining chairs based on an old matastati sign you know with a great big old knackered victorian sofa and little wine tables and they just had a very natural easy intuitive instinctive way of putting things together that was very lovely um and so when i walked into the conland shop for the first time i was feeling like oh i'm i'm i know this i recognize this yes it seemed very natural um and indeed when you walked into you know any of my friends homes it was like oh well and so there's a thought all the thoughts were similar you know it was really interesting so yeah i love that it's like all the sort of boisterous and kind of um esoteric household then you meet all these wonderful characters who are some of the most unusual people you've met oh gosh oh gosh i mean you know well one of the great things somebody once asked you know there was a david chipperfield show at the blueprint and the architect very eminent architect yeah and there was a great retrospective of his work and I think it was the days under Alice Ross I think Alice is you know heading up the game at the time and somebody came on and said oh god damn you know David is there was a huge dinner after the opening show and we did a lot of those and so one of the things that came out you know and said oh can you get my table so i said you know and i'd been invited to sit down at a table to have dinner which i didn't always do um i was i always prefer being backstage but in this instance i did because it was a very special evening and so getting up in the middle of all this great hoo-ha and just going find me a table now yeah okay that's what i'm gonna do you know just you know i was like okay that's how it's done you know and one of the amazing things with restaurants and the food community is if you kick your heels around the business long enough it is amazing who you will feed and then having fed them maybe or their parents or even their grandparents or their kids and it goes into generational, that's lovely.

2:07:36But over a long period of time it will be amazing who you will find you have fed and then there will come a time where you might be at something, I don't know an awards ceremony or a great gathering to celebrate someone or something and you bump into someone and bang you're off down another rabbit hole. Wow. You know, and so I've met and cooked for a lot of folk over the years. It's fantastic and great fun. I would no more presume friendship, but there's a lot I've, you know, became great chums with and eaten with and what have you. But I'm not going to give you any names because that would be vulnerable.

2:08:11No, no, no, I don't mean, yeah. I would never do that. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Do I look like Nigel Dempster? No, it's more sort of unusual conversations, especially around here, because I think you can just... Oh, gosh, yeah, no. Yeah, melting pot of, like, different people. A couple more things, then we'll begin to wrap this up. I'm absolutely loving this, mate. But I want to go back to Fergus, because... Yes. Yeah, he's... What he's done is just so astounding with St. John and how he sort of... Yes. ...entered the zeitgeist. But, like, you're friends with him. Like describe when you first met and what are some of the lessons you've picked up from him?

2:08:48It could be, it doesn't have to be up. Oh, his, they're wonderful. I know there's many wonderful things about Fergus Henderson. Chief of mine was my friendship because I just adore the man. And then I think he's the genius. When did you first meet? So we met properly first when I left Alistair Little and I opened our, or I was the head chef. It was my first head chef's gig. at a tiny little restaurant on Upper Street in Missington called Euphoria. And it went off like a rocket. Amazing. I'm not surprised. It was the science of this table. It was teensy. You know, very funny. It was very funny, very silly, very sweet.

2:09:24Yeah, totally unsustainable. But, you know, hey-ho. It was an immensely important work-wise because it catapulted me into another realm. And so I... And we used to... We were closed every lunch. and so at lunchtime we would gather Marwan and myself and we would go to St John for lunch because my friend Dan Leppard was doing the bread then the great baker and we would go out by our bed Dan Leppard that's an amazing name and he's an amazing baker and also we'd cook together at Alice Little so it was lovely again these amazing threads that go through all we do and so I used to go down there and buy bread from him And that then Fergus almost always had no, no, not back then, but very often had lunch in the dry night, but it was on the pass.

2:10:14And so, you know, it just sparked off. And then we had lots of friends in common. And bit by bit, very naturally and exponentially and charmingly. We just gravitated. And then when I left and I wasn't in the euphoria for very long, because when Terence came and offered me the blueprint, then it had become vacant. um and then you know and then got catapulted into a realm and suddenly you know there we were side by side you know and it was it's a natural it was a very sweet natural way mara and then this whole you know they all became you know very quickly best friends wow and what is what was like what's he taught you about like because i think he's got his so unique kind of way of doing oh his amazing assurance that this was the right way to do it it's one of the things because what margot was saying to me is back then everyone was like what this is mental like this oh it's almost the steadfastness when the zephyrs of like oh god you know no everyone uh no i think what's interesting critically he was incredibly well received i think this is very important to remember about st john and the fact that the restaurant actually did not enjoy uh a first flush of success for a long time and the critics loved it and the artists loved it but the public were completely bamboozled because they would be offered, instead of, you know, like a grand aioli would be this elaborate pantheon of all the vegetables and this elaborate dish.

2:11:40Fergus said, oh, no, just give them a boiled egg and a carrot and a bowl of aioli. There you go. Mini aioli. And folk just couldn't get it. They didn't know what on earth this was. And the fronds would still be on. Now the fronds will be, the peelings and the fronds and the tips will all be in a pesto. They will go on that one. But back then, it was unheard of. Yeah, and how did you get people to sort of buy into it? or what was the... Well, I think it's fair to say, I mean, Anthony Bourdain was the one that turned the game around for them, I think. Right. They met, because Fergus was being fettered.

2:12:17I mean, this is the thing, he was being fettered the world over by this stage, and the art world had taken him absolutely to their bosom. Because? Because he was just so bloody chic and stylish and brilliant and funny, and, you know, had grown up in this. and he's a London blue blood and then grown up in this world. So knew lots of folk. And it was just a very nice and because he'd been doing supper clubs and all sorts forever beforehand, you know, and had worked with Christina Smith in the basement of Smith's restaurant and done these huge Sunday lunches that were legendary. I mean, he was a legend before he even opened some John.

2:12:53I mean, I think that's fair to say. And then I think the restaurant wise football puzzle, you know people don't understand getting a whole shoulders of lamb back then it was these were unheard off dishes you know it was like what is all this you know we're all about phillip stick and prime cuts and lamb rack and he's like no no you're like a whole you know you know well dressed salads we don't build them you know and all this kind of thing um it was incredible you know and their impact was absolutely huge and then when i think anthony bourdon uh descended fell madly in love with Fergus and St John and wrote about it and literally it went off like a bit it was almost vertical wow did you ever meet Bourdain yes what was that funny I loved him well I thought the first time I met him was at dinner at the Groucho with Fergus and I've never met anyone more erudite and charming he was absolutely really just I mean his eyes twinkled you were like wow you know I mean it's very impressive presence yeah he's I mean I love He was genial, just so genial.

2:13:53And in fact, the last time I saw him, he was actually having dinner bizarrely with Adrian Gill at Corvatus. Really? And these two impeccably dressed darlings walked through the door. We were all like, oh, God. Well, that was a dining room. That was one hell of a night. Really? It was star-studded. Talk me through that night. Because those two are like, for me, starting this. Well, they were having dinner together. A.A. Gill were like two of my biggest heroes. I know, it was amazing. No, they were having dinner together. Neither of them were with us. I don't think they were here even a year later but it was the last time I saw them.

2:14:24Yeah, because A.A. Gill was 2016 and then Bourdain was 2018. It was like, yeah. No, it was a very short period of time. And, oh, he was just gracious, charming and lovely and it was a very special memory. You know, and the room was electric. Everyone just followed them like that. I went, wow. Did you speak to them that night? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when I'm building like this, it's imperative that you walk in. Well, yeah, because I've seen that. Because we've eaten here, like, before I even met Sam. Like, quite a few... We had a mate who was over from New York, and we were... Oh, wow. This must have been...

2:15:01Oh, my goodness. Yeah, a couple of years ago. Probably, like, 18 months ago, I came here for my birthday two years ago. Well, I walked up fucking drunk, to be honest. Well done. Good for you. I sat down there having a fag, and, like, just getting bucket loads of chips... by my friends. Amazing. But one thing I have noticed is you have this commandeering kind of, you sort of carouse and careen through the room. Like, how important is that to get things... Oh, very important. Well, there was a lesson Alistair told me, because when you pop up to see a pal, you know, and very sweetly there's a lot of pals come to eat here, the table next door might have been, you know, going, ooh, you didn't speak to me.

2:15:43And so I just thought, well, I'm not... I'm sorry to don't walk the tables, that's for sure. I mean, I've got, you know, certainly not, you know, but I just think to be a presence is quite nice. So I just walk through the building, you know, every now and again, just to keep an eye on things and what have you. It's interesting. And also, because, you know, we might have a very young front of high staff on that night and they might not be as anything as old as I am and recognise folk and, you know, all that stuff. Yeah. It's quite nice to keep an eye, just to keep an eye on things. Yeah. Have you ever had, what's been some of the hardest days or the lonely days in this journey of yours?

2:16:18Oh, golly, oh, God. They fall off the bottom of the page. Oh, lots! Oh, my God, it's not a gilded business at all. But anything good is not gilded. You know, when you ask a lawyer, you know, or a nurse, or, you know, a nurse that's been on a 48-hour shift at A &E at the weekend. I think anything you care about, anything you enjoy, will come with good days and bad days. There's always a flip side to everything. and golly, for sure there have been days when you went, what the fuck is this and why am I doing it? But, you know, tomorrow's another day. Tomorrow's always another day and I think... What were some of those days that they blossomed to your mind?

2:17:03No, you blocked them from memory. I mean, I think the thing, like pain, you can never remember it. You know, and I think it's very important to do that, never look back. Learn from behind, that's for sure. learn from things past um and you know be aware of where things went and what won't do and i tend it's not rose tinted glasses but i think carrying negative energy is really bad period yeah you want to exercise as much of that as possible because you know there's always going to be bad to deal with how did you do that and i also got these questions self no i've got i've got no idea i it just came naturally with age and experience probably.

2:17:41Yeah. And having really good friends. Yeah. I think it was very, very key. And I think I lucked out in not only working with amazing people, but making great friends along the way. I've remained very, very dear. Now for a very, very, very long period of time. What's the genius of Eddie and Sam? Impeccable eye for detail. Right. They have, you know, they will know exactly how to, you know, if you look at the original design of Barofino, and I loved Fino enormously, that was a great restaurant, and it's much missed, the very first one just off Charlotte Street. but Barifina when you look up when you look at the complexity of this the bars are quite big now but the original bars were not as huge like that and the complexity of what they had to put in place to make that all work with the kitchen and going live in front of them when their place rammed to the rafters it's amazing I mean it's extraordinary so I think being brought up in the business with parents with impeccable style as well and then just simply then and they bring their take on that with the next generation.

2:18:50But I think it's their impeccable eye for detail and style. And they've got brilliant palettes. Absolutely brilliant palettes. You know, and that plate's empty in a trice, oh, there's a big problem. And luckily I've never seen a plate not being returned. I want to finish where we started on books, because I love books, but what would you say are some of your favorite cookbooks? And I know that's a massive question for you, Would you like, if you could maybe distill it to maybe four or five? Just because I... And then actually some of your favourite books, like fiction or non-fiction. Yes, oh God.

2:19:27Well, I still think... Oh God, well, let's... Should we say authors? Authors, yeah. Five authors who I think are seminal. And I think it's Elizabeth David. I would say Alice Waters. I would say David Tannis Fergus Henderson and then, do you know what I think of it? The River Caffey books Ruth and Rose I think they're amazing, they're brilliant I can refer to them constantly because they're just great and that's in no order and that is off the cuff with so many others I could add to that list they just fall off the because that's why we did a photo in the book it's why we just did a random photograph of the shelves is that picture in your home yeah wow yeah cuz I mean yes it doesn't look like that upstairs as well as it's bloody ridiculous yeah but they were going oh list your ten favorite books I hate these lists yeah little torture and it's all and they always change yeah but I said I can do that I'm amazed they let me get away with that one and then yeah just some of your favorite um favorite authors yeah i love like i'll go and read well i would say 19th century russians i love chekov and google um pushkin very very much short stories i love from them um more modern things i love oh my god i'm gonna have an absolute brain collapse now um i mean anything by jane austen it's usually gorgeous because she's such fun and sometimes you need something like that but i think jane austen stoke nancy metford are brilliant love them very very much indeed um who else do i really really like that i'm enjoying at the moment uh why am i reading it at the moment oh my god oh anything by olivia lang usually is brilliant um and she's now breaking and branching out into she's just written her first book of fiction which is the silver which is amazing all about Chinichitta in the 50s which is very exciting and then Charlie Porter I love, he's brilliant but because there's been quite a lot of death in the family of recent, I couldn't finish this book because I'm looking forward to finishing that enormously because I think he's a really brilliantly, fascinatingly interesting writer and I like his take from moving from becoming a fashion journalist into a very seasoned writer I think is an amazing journey and oh golly so much more I love lessons in chemistry thought that was just brilliant like that a lot so no it's it's quite it's quite expansive and you said you've had this death in the family recently how have you how are you dealing with that how do you how's that um it is about it's so catastrophically awful um but you have really got no alternative but to carry on um as tragic and awful as it is in the circumstances and you know the one thing i would just say is i just wish these would stop blowing up the world and put some money into cancer treatment please thank you very much i think you'd all be a lot better off let's wrap that up there that's been an absolute joy of a way to spend an afternoon thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope, and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands.

2:23:30Thank you so much.