Manchester's Busiest Restaurant: "We Killed Everything That Made Us Cool” (and got busier) - Cafe Continental

48:42All right, but you can't order it till this time. But then by that time, they've already waited 20 minutes to get this on, and we're trying to flip this kitchen. Listen, there was time. With people losing their fucking mind. There was times, yeah, where we'd sat people down late because it'd been busy or whatnot. Oh, there's a big group. And there was a big group. And I've had to go up to the kitchen to him while he's got fucking joints of beef coming out of the oven. I'm just going, table five on five's got more eggs on. We've had some interesting conversation. These fucking eggs, right around the back of the pack.

49:15It's fucking two joints in the evening's hand. I'm like, is that all right? No. All right. Off we go. You're going to have to have Sunday roast table five. the that's interesting like there's a who was it avoid what was it I think who was it it was like don't avoid unpleasant conversations I think that's it you've got to have them yeah what's the biggest like not bar meetings you've had but how do you as a creative partnership make sure you are fucking off the breakfast menu like what's the art of having having difficult conversations so to be honest with you there's there's there's four of us there's me there's Lee there's Jack Jack, who, he was a builder, he built, he built the place.

49:59And then my best mate from being sort of young teenager, Dave, and Dave actually manages the bar and stuff. So we're all sort of involved together, but myself and Lee will take the creative direction and the food direction. So, you know, Jack and Dave are quite happy to sit back, let us take the lead. and luckily, like, myself and Lee are quite aligned on the dishes, on what we're serving, when we're serving it, how our role should be, like, we don't really have many disagreements. Yeah, we have disagreements on service levels and this and that, but like I said, Lee is a perfectionist because he's a chef and he's a good chef, where, like I said, my motto is perfect is the enemy of good, so I'm just striving for consistently good, where Lee will always strive for perfection.

50:51That's a great, That's a great tension though, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And like, sometimes I need bringing up when something's not to standard and he has to talk to me and then sometimes Lee's talking down and I'm like, you know, Lee, nobody cares about that too much. Like, let's just, let's get it on the table and let's get it out. Let's get out as a dish, this and that. So we don't have, like, I can't say we've never had a fight. No, I don't think we've ever had a fight. No, we had some fucking tense conversations over certain things. What's been the hardest conversation you've had to have together?

51:20I've been fucking stopping breakfast. Yeah, I was banging the drum for a long time. Yeah, I was. Because you had to fucking cook it. I didn't have to cook it. So I was like... Were you making good money on it? No, so you don't make money on breakfast. I think you obviously do, but it was a struggle. I was using the best sausages you can buy, the best black pudding you can buy, the best... We went too heavy on breakfast, but I do think especially... Hotels make money on breakfast, because it's 21 quid. Yeah, there's only so much you can buy. How much is your breakfast? 14 quid. Yeah, and I think even that's at the high end of what you can charge for full English.

51:54And I wouldn't have felt comfortable charging people more than 40 quid for breakfast. Obviously, we need to make money, but we're not ruthless in our approach. I realise that even our Sunday roast, we charge, I think it's 24.50 for sirloid of beef, where a lot of restaurants are charging 24.50 for rump. Now, we do have conversations like, you know, Ryan, this is a little bit too cheap. And I'm going, I understand that, but could I smile at a customer for a 28 pound roast? it should be probably about that because our sirloin is fucking good. But there's a balance between offering a good product at the right price and then people also unfortunately have an opinion on price and you find it very hard to move the market.

52:38We got that a lot when we, the amount of times I've heard they can't charge that in Staley Bridge. We are using the same products as a sitting centre restaurant. We're delivering the same quality as a city center restaurant, but because we're in a suburb, we should be charging a lot less. We're still labor-intensive like any restaurant is. We still can't claim VAT. We still pay 25 % car tax. Our ingredients, if anything, our ingredients are dearer because we're not a big chain. So we don't have the buying power. So obviously, we have to make a margin to stay open. So the principles are, good is perfect is the enemy of good.

53:19good consistently is great what was it have a good product deliver a good product and show people a good product any other principles

53:33don't be afraid of saying you got it wrong don't be afraid to say you got it wrong and change the only thing that we will maintain is our direction of the basic principle of the style of the restaurant the style of the food and the only times where we've had to change our mind is where it was outside of our own principles which is obviously the breakfast mate at one point our coffee menu was fucking bigger than the breakfast menu we were doing fucking all sorts and like we used to have back and forth about it because I was always like because the food was so good and my thing to leave was like our food is so good like I kind of wanted the drinks menu to reflect that and it was over complicated It really fucking was.

54:18But I thought we were sort of matching that for the customers. And do you know what? We were busy on the coffee machine because we were doing all sorts of cold foam match this fucking... Even Agnet. I didn't know what a blueberry cold foam was. You know what I know? We were doing that fucking... We were doing... We were doing the fucking Parisian hot chocolate. So this Parisian hot chocolate, I think it used like a full fucking bar of galaxy. and the barista at the time I had poached her she was a good barista she was passionate about it and I kind of let her run with the coffee menu and I was supportive of the coffee menu because I thought, do you know what it's good and the food's good I wanted them to both be in sync I wanted to be fully impressive and everything was over complicated on the breakfast so I looked at it and I'd never sort of questioned it It's a really interesting tension of sticking to your coffee so what gets you from A to B in terms of this links to this cool piece it's not necessarily going to get you from B to C i.e.

55:17you may become irrelevant you know and there's the two things it's like you've got to stick to your fucking guns yeah but you've also got to adapt and in the middle of those two things is ego yeah yeah because the thing that got you flying yeah well no no we've had this with the content that's why we're trying new content styles I was a you know my ego was like no no I know what I'm doing but you know we need to try and adapt and do new stuff and then but if you're just chasing the next fucking thing then what are you? I'm like, yeah. Do you know what I'm trying to say? You quickly forget like the basics quite, like ego can get the better of you like not, like obviously the breakfast thing I was like, I wanted to have the best breakfast on the side of Manchester, you know what I mean?

55:59And like, not saying Lee didn't but he knew the intensive nature of breakfast and the demands it put on the kitchen and like, it took a while for me to fall and I go right, fuck the breakfast stuff let's, but please can we keep the lunch menu because I still wanted to attract people in the day and I was I was reserved and scared of not appealing to enough people during the day because I thought you can't just survive on a Friday and Saturday night like you know a lot of businesses fucking struggle in this game because the main source of customs Friday and Saturday nights and you might get a tickle Thursday Sunday if you're looking if you're not doing Sunday rolls it's not easy to sort of attract customers in for the basic menu so i was i was adamant that breakfast was the right thing it was bringing people in the day it was paying some of the bills you know we weren't making loads of money on it but at least it was some cash into the business and like it wasn't it wasn't good cash it was it was it was poor cash and you know the labor intensiveness the staffing of it the coffee machine it was just it was a fucking free-for-all really wasn't it but i still So we still want to keep the lunch menu.

57:03And the lunch menu ran for a while. And we both had a conversation, the boozer one night, and was like, you know what, mate? Should we just trial and error, see if people want to eat our food in the daytime? Because what was happening is, after all these videos have gone viral, people were asking for our evening menu of the day, and people were turning up disappointed that they couldn't get that food. Right. And we were like, really upsetting quite a lot of people, because we're like, we've come for the short rib, and it's not on the lunch menu. And I was always like, let's not put the short rib on the lunch menu, because I want people to have an excuse to come back in the evening yeah and yeah it took a while didn't it but after after a bit of discussion we pulled the lunch menu and like we just started doing our evening menu and even even the evening menu was sort of more lunchy at the time wasn't it because we were trying to evolve it rather than just going straight to the evening menu there's still a fact got a few what other classes of lunch dishes on the evening menu but we changed it didn't we and like yeah yeah it's a real good lesson like the ego is the enemy and it's just like look what's in fucking value But it has been a nice natural progression of, you know, we got to a place where we wanted to be.

58:06We've had to do sacrifice a bit for it. You know, we had to do a bit of shit to get there along the way. But now it works. Everyone's happy. Like we've got the lunch menu at lunch. Sorry, the evening menu is the only menu we do. But then we have a specials board and we'll fill it as much as we want, you know, because we have more time. We have more freedom. And yeah, it's a beautiful place to be now. we honestly like I've got a group of really good chefs up there and they stay because they do have the freedom to cook whatever the fuck they want you know what I mean we'll always have a chat you know Wednesday right what we're getting in for the weekend you know what I mean and like how dishes you know a special evolves into a dish and then it's added to and then it becomes a permanent dish a lot of our core menu now is we're always specials that evolved along the way and it's yeah they become that hard to take off because people see it and they come for it they ask for it but even obviously I knew with like the burger he was getting phone calls will that burger be on on this day on that day you already have the feeling yeah it's going to become a classic of the restaurant you know what I mean yeah I want to talk about Manchester I went to uni here so I was like I fucking love this city it's got like a I don't know like it was the epicentre of the industrial revolution yeah so all the fucking it was Cottonopolis yeah like it was yeah basically the centre of the world at one point with all the canals, it was just a huge export.

59:30And then you almost had the, the madchester days in the eighties, everyone was getting peeled up. Yeah, Hacienda. Hacienda, Oasis. I think the food revolution's happening. You're having a Hacienda of food now in the city, especially the places I went last night. Sorry, can you, is the mic picking the kitchen noise up? It should be okay. Are you sure? Right, demo, just with any blenders right in the back. It should be alright, we can cut it and we can cut stuff out. You might just put all of the stuff. Damo, we just... Yeah, just knock it on the head for now, it's only another hour mate. Damo, just turn the extractor down.

1:00:07Just put the slide in front of his face. That's alright. Isn't that better? Yeah, so it's got this grit and this creative grit is what I've described the city as. It always has. It's just different generations of creativity and what the buzz is at the time. and what the key focus is at the time. Like we've had the music. We've had, like, I think Manchester had the massive bar revolution as well. Just not, not just nightclubs. Like... What do you mean as in like, as in, is that happening now? Sorry. So, yeah, no. So bars, but nightclubs started to die because people's drinking habits and partying habits changed.

1:00:46People wanted to go out early. Because I was here in 2016 when clubbing was big. Still big. It was probably the last as it was Keeling Off. So we used to go to Sankey's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking, what was it? Was it called Hidden? Hidden, yeah. I think Hidden is still there. Hidden was great. Yeah, Hidden, yeah. Like loads of places like round Fallowfield. That's when people were still getting on it and partying. But that's sort of, I feel like food's replaced party. You just wanna come out now and instead of getting, doing loads of gags, they just wanna have like a nice steak and a bottle of wine.

1:01:13That was obviously my DJing career sort of fizzling out as well, because there became a new evolution of sort of bar, straw, restaurant, where people wanted to eat and drink in the same place and then party a little bit after and then go home earlier rather than sort of coming out, pre-drinking and coming out and then going to a nightclub and then getting off your face and then going home. Like, late girls wanted to dress up a little bit more. They wanted to wear the heels and dance at the same time. Lads wanted to dress a little bit smarter rather than going out in rave gear. So that, this evolution of like vibrant dining became sort of prominent and then bars started to pop up here left, right and centre as nightclub started to close.

1:01:52So the bar revolution, I think, was a popular invention. It's so interesting, like, have you been to Dorian in London? Oh, no, I haven't, no. Mate, so I went the other day, and it's like, it's kind of that. So you're sat at the counter, and they're banging out steaks, and, like, it's open counters, it's like the cinema of shit. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. But they're playing all this, the music in there is, like, full fucking whack, and it's like, oomph, oomph, oomph. Yeah, yeah. And you're eating this banging food, and, like, you kind of, you know, and then, weirdly, I was having a cig outside, and Chris, the owner, as we were getting a cab, popped in and saw Ash and was like, and I was like, mate, the music in there is fucking sick.

1:02:29And he was like, yeah, we were going for this, I don't know, he says that he's this crazy Australian guy. He's like, we're going for like this, this like Al Pacino Scarface techno. And I was like, this is how it's moving. It's like, we're wanting to go to these places where you can go to a bar afterwards. And I feel like people are either going to a restaurant or a pub and pubs now are really becoming music venues or you're going to a big fuck off rave like a Josh Baker thing at you know like a proper stadia rave you're not going clubbing really it just exists in a very rare form now clubbing like I said people want to stay in one place if they can Sankey's reopened Sankey's has reopened yeah in a different location shout out well that's the other thing because Anco's when I was at uni was a It was a ghost land.

1:03:21Yeah. Busy gaff now, Ancocs. Well, Ancocs is like the Shoreditch of Manchester, isn't it? Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. So the evolution of the bar, and then the bar started doing food, and then the bars then became sort of nightclub at restaurants. You can see the evolution. It went back to, back in the early 2000s, you had something called Dean's Get Locks and the Sugar Lounge. So Sugar Lounge was like one of the first premium bars in Manchester where all the footballers used to go. And then you had the living room the living room popped up doing food and that was David Beckham's favourite place to go and so on and so on and it's just grown and grown and grown into this sort of behemoth of vibrant dining like you had probably 12 years ago Neighbourhood a lot of inspirations come from the meatpacking district in New York I haven't put those links yeah like even the ones in London like they were like the ones to sort of really push this forward like this nightclub restaurant type have you been to New York Catch and stuff like that just like overly noisy very brash food's expensive but everyone's having a good time a lot of inspiration was taken from these areas in like New York and stuff that was like at the forefront I mean we went to Carbone in London well sorry I went to Carbone in London a few weeks ago and that was very very similar I was expecting like a retro Italian gaff in like you see in the one in New York but no it's it was very very much sort of nightclub it was very dim lit but the bar was booming and stuff like that and I was like this is it now it's also I think a big part of that is Sewer House in the sense that what they did is they that whole all day dining and it moves into nightclub sort of thing so you're not actually leaving the so we stayed at Molly's last night which I think started as under Sewer House and then it got sold it feels but it's like you know there's Molly's Diner but then downstairs is the bar and the music slowly throughout the day gets more like do you know what I mean and it's it's mad how culture is changing but as you say like if you're trying to you can either go with that tide and stay to your true roots or you can just get stuck in the past we did we did when we opened we that like we did like we so we had do you have this go can you have you got a license to turn this into more of a like oh we did so let's say the kitchen we used to turn into a dj box and we used to see can you see up there that was the d now the dj used to go up there we used to have like rent sound systems and stuff we used to have singers on when we first opened like the dj thing was more like specific parties that we used to throw and like we used to have like live singers on and this is another direction where we had to just go no it's not working yeah I forgot about that yeah yeah like so yeah because that seems like that would be a sick idea well because well we're a restaurant not a nightclub and like there's the author Stephen King has a quote I love which is kill your babies yeah yeah which is basically say you've written a book and there might be a section you really fucking love and you think it's some of the best writing you've ever done yeah does it work you've got to kill your babies so like if you're an ex-DJ DJ, fuck me, I've got a banging restaurant.

1:06:18Let's put some parties on. Yeah, again. Gotta kill your baby. There's a little bit of ego in that as well. We did, we love a fucking party. It was quite appealing to us two years ago. But that was a bit of ego as well. It was like, I used to throw these parties. We've had some pretty well-known DJs. Who've you had to play here? So Corrupt FM come and did one event for us. We had Sweet Female Attitude, Zed Bias. And then I had more booked in some of the bigger names. I don't want to mention them on here. We can take it out. Yeah, it was just. Sick. They're friends of ours, so they said, yeah, we'll come and do one of them.

1:06:55But I looked at it, I was like, and we used to post videos of it online. And I used to look at it and I looked cringing on it. I think, what were we trying to do there? Like, it's just a bit, it looked, from the out face, it looked just a little bit chavvy. And I'm like, right, we need to pull that. Same thing, we used to have like a stage here where I'm sat. We used to have live singers on every, we see it Thursday, Friday, Saturday sorry, Friday, Saturday, Sunday What sort of music? Just like live acoustic Like their own songs or was it like Covers, covers their own songs we had some really good singers on our books because I knew a few back from when I was doing sort of music and we'd get people coming in asking to specifically sit away from the singer and stuff because it was loud and I was like, whoa so in the end I was just like are people actually enjoying this?

1:07:44because it's taking up sort of covers in the restaurant it takes quite a big space even if you had like someone on a stool they've still got a speaker we've still got to plug all the cables in it's a bit of a nightmare it was like it's not our thing like we're not in the city centre we don't have to be vibrant yeah when we got rid of it like no one batted an eyelid no one cared there was not one comment it was just it was gone and then that was it we moved on so do you know Will Godara who did 11 Madison Park he wrote Unreasonable Hospitality no it's the book that like it's that yellow book that everyone reads but that 11 Madison Park, it was a freestyle place but it became the best restaurant in the world.

1:08:18Anyway, he said when he started his restaurant, well, he wanted the restaurant to reflect the singer Miles Davies. And he said, if you think about that in your head, it's a bit of a weird question this. But I'd love to know, out of all the bands that have come from Manchester, which are the ones that sort of, would you want to model this restaurant off creatively? Well, if you're talking Manchester, Stone Roses and Oasis, Happy Mondays. It's like It's all the cliche ones isn't it but they are the best you can't you can't deny that we went to Oasis didn't we last year in Manchester yeah Heaton Park it was unbelievable but you don't realise just how successful Manchester is as a city until like you've been to one of them gigs and you've seen the love and support that people show up how many gigs did they do five, six in Manchester maybe maybe less but and the amount of people who just swarm to the city and like everyone there was a different vibe at them concerts wasn't there like yeah I still put it down as one of the greatest nights of my life to be sure I saw them at Wembley fucking hell no not Wembley was it Wembley yeah it was yeah Wembley yeah yeah yeah mate and it was just I just literally come back from my beef the day before and then my mate was like do you want to go to Oasis I was like fuck it yeah go on and just even we were in Soho and everyone had the caps bucket hats on mate it felt like you know like before a footy game you know I'm a Spurs fan my dad's got a season ticket so we'll go to the games and it's just this this tribal fucking energy yeah it's hard I've never seen that before but that everyone so it felt like everyone was going to a football game it felt like the World Cup but for music it was just this yeah the World Cup was fucking hard work I think they as you say they're cliches they're cliches but cliches for a reason exactly what do you think it is about like the I know like the Manchester perspective with creativity like why do you think this city just produces this I don't I don't I think there's a there's a Mancunian spirit man isn't it like you know what is that spirit it's like tough chin up carry on mentality away nothing gets you down there's a there's a little bit of Mancunian Mancunian spirit it's like stick it to the man isn't it like they're quite a rebellious energy about the Mancunian spirit and it's a working class environment like everyone's sort of like back in the day everyone used to know everyone's business and like neighbours were neighbours and front doors were left open and it reflects in the music but again it's I think the music scene and the hospitality scene just run so much in sync Yeah that's why I wanted to explore this because it's like they're not They're very much in cahoots and some people don't realise it.

1:11:10You know, I think, like, there's scientific studies going, like, depending on, like, the tempo of the music played in a restaurant, you're more likely to order more this or that, or, you know, the slower the music, that might make you more tired and you spend less money. I've seen a few podcasts where, like, some of these restaurants and stuff are thinking that deeply into, sort of, the music coherence with the food. Oh, mate, the music punctuates the food. Oh, absolutely. So Stowe last night, I loved it. It's very industrial. It kind of has the vestiges of Manchester in there, but it's got, you know, festoon with all these little flickering candles.

1:11:49So it creates that vibe. And the music is just old school 90s hip hop fucking loud. And it's just like, no, no, no, it's not that casual. But you know what I'm saying? And then you get these delicious plates of food and the music punctuates it. It's just like full stop bang, full stop bang. it's like in this city it's just got it is fucking mad because it's it's a big city but it's not a big big city and on the grand scheme of things it just it punches so above its weight creatively yeah it does I think like the second capital of England now Manchester is it oh yeah yeah definitely I think it's been like that for a while culturally it's been as big as London yeah because you've got the football you've got the it's always been what do you so I don't know if you listened to the pod we did with John Hegarty who's the big marketing guy.

1:12:36Yeah, I've seen a few clips of that. So he's quite old now, he's like 80, not being ageist, but he was one of the OG dons of British advertising. Set up BBH. They did the famous Levi's campaign. So before BBH, Levi's was some really pony brand. Marvin Gaye's career was going down the pan. He was shit. And they did this advert and everyone was wearing jock straps. they weren't not jock straps um what are they called like what what are the things called breaches breaches sorry yeah not jock straps um but basically he did this advert which was the famous uh laundry uh advert which the first time like people got he you know to do that back in the 70s or late 60s was really pushing the boundaries and you know the guy comes in takes his kit off and he's wearing boxers off the back of that advert that one i'll show you after we've recorded levi's became a sick brand marvin's gay's song came number one and the culture changed and people started wearing box shorts because it is just the guy did the toshiba thing as well that's dave trot so he they're in the same pantheon of yeah but yeah but um but anyway what what so john hegarty says he's got this amazing book called creativity and he says if you want to be creative go to places where the weather's shit and he says you won't ever be creative in in a place where you need to go where you don't have to think as much you've got to think more you've got to be a bit because you've got to be a bit fucked off for creativity you've got to be also when you're indoors when the weather's great you're going to be working more hours yeah like how and this is a bit of a maybe airy fairy question but how how does that how do you think that helps with your creativity the weather in manchester it's got that grit to it do you know I mean that's a is a fair point because we do have to think on our feet as well because we don't have a massive outdoor dining space at all in fact none um we've got a couple of small kitchen tables yeah a couple of small tables outside but like summer hot summer is your enemy when you've only got an indoor space so obviously you're gonna have to think of like light additions aren't you things that are going to bring people in the door it's not going to sort of feel like too over feeling and then vice versa in the winter we want to keep people indoors invite them in for like wholesome full home cooked style with our spin on it food and like yeah the environment outside very very much dictates your menu as it does with any restaurant how do you how do you dance with that then like in terms of the menu creation if you're not again we always have the car menu and there is we'll sort of change it every quarter with a season but obviously the seasons are half out the window now anyway it's uh yeah nothing makes sense to me in a season anymore well again when the car does most of the talking and we just blast the specials bar with whatever we want and you know we'll have sometimes different because we do just specials till we sell out i'll have different specials at lunch and then different specials at dinner and that's always been able to you know we've always been able to keep if there is because even you know you look at the weather 30 degrees tomorrow right let's bang on to about later tomorrow just we we go with it like that you know right just as long as we can react fast that's the way we've done it so far it always seems to work for us yeah we have to turn it around quick as well we have to get the dish out get out on social media almost like going fishing for customers like we'd yeah we need to attract these people in who want to sort of stay out the heat like even we didn't even do the post not so long ago like we just put air condition on the specials board.

1:16:18Obviously it's been fucking boiling this summer. It's been a banging summer and there's so many cafes that we're sort of just putting on the blackboards. We have air conditioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's just like just that adaptability. What's the, so you're not in the centre of Manchester. I think restaurant location is one of the things that or site selection. It's science, it's art, it's intuition, it's data. it's fucking fascinating to me. Talk to me why you didn't open in the centre where everyone is. So this... So just the context of people listening, we're about half hour drive.

1:17:00It's like 12 minutes on the train straight from Piccadilly to the train station, which is two minutes behind the restaurant, to, you know, if you're on a good one, you can get into Manchester in 20 minutes in the car, you know, anything from 30 minutes to 40 minutes spending on traffic. But this was supposed to be... Well, this was never targeted originally. We looked at Stockport for the restaurant. We did look at city centre locations. Why do you look at Stockport? Because there's a little bit of a heartbeat in Stockport that's sort of up and coming. I think that was them. Now Stockport, there's loads going on at Stockport.

1:17:35Really? Some great restaurants at Stockport. Who's the band that's from Stockport? The Blossoms. Fuck. Ciao, Chaz. There's a good band that's from Stockport. It's Escape Me. There is, yeah. but that's south isn't it Stockport yeah is it south of the city yeah like towards like the airport way yeah yeah yeah it's literally a 50 minute drive from here it's not far but I was on the hunt and I went to I went to view a restaurant in an empty shell in Stockport and I'm walking around and I'm like I just at the time I didn't have any familiarity with the area I was like I didn't know sort of the pockets of places that might be good because they've got something called the underbank now and that was supposed to be the place to be on that was the upper underbank what's that underbank I think literally it's underbank like it's just like but is it like one of those restaurants yeah like just like a little street full of bars and restaurants and cafes but I went to view this place and I came away it was tiny it was like it was probably the same size in total the same size as this restaurant floor and I come away and I was on the phone to me my wife and I was like I found this place but it's cheap enough it's got good transport links but it it just didn't sing at all to me and like it was it was just a square room it already had like a small kitchen fit and I was like is this I don't I don't feel a connection to it so I was like I was on the way home and I was like fucking hell what can I do here because I'd looked at other towns like there's somewhere close to a car up a mill it's just a fairly vibrant area in one of the villages it's expensive and the footfall is what it is it's in a village it's quite remote but it's popular for tourists but it's as and when and I was driving home and I thought I have to come through Staley Bridge to get to my house so I thought do you know what I'll just go and look is there any empty units there so I drove down here my wife's mum has got a shop just like five doors up she's a hairdresser so I always knew this was here but it never came what was this before it was a chemist this was a chemist?

1:19:43yeah massive fucking chemist yeah yeah oh yeah no so what was it before that a tea shop yeah it was like it was like a tea importer as many years ago like i think it was like a proper old school general store um so yeah i came out i packed my car up looked outside here there was this and it had been up for rent for about four years i knew it was here but it just never come to my mind so the shutter was down but there's like a post box slitting in the shutter so i just popped my eyes through and I looked at the floor, the square dining room, and just above you there, it's a platform, and that was just an empty platform that you could see above it, and I thought, that's the kitchen there, just immediately, and that's the kitchen, so I got on the phone, I viewed it, and was like, yeah, and the rent was the right price, and the most important thing to me was the transport links, because the train station's there, there's loads of car parks, it's not that far out of Manchester, but as the crow It really isn't difficult to get to.

1:20:39And I thought, you know what? As long as people can get here by any means possible, I mean, that'd be train, tram, because Ash Thunderland's got a tram as well, car, loads of car parking spaces. I was like, we can make it work. I had confidence that we would make it work. So yeah, the selling point to me was actually the kitchen platform because I wanted an open kitchen that was always sort of on the business plan and the transport links. And yeah, fortunately, it's paid off because people have actually traveled. They don't find it too difficult. to get to and they can park up there's plenty of car parks around which is important people don't believe how important that is but it really is yeah I hadn't thought of that like the car park I think that's why the car park that's the thing with town like you think you want to drive into Manchester yeah we were trying to park last night you've got to get in the car you've got to get ready you've got to get in the car if you're not getting an Uber which is expensive now albeit they've got no choice because the cost of fuel and everything else is ridiculous but you jump in the car now after you've got ready go and try and find a parking space in town if it's pissing down it's not inviting and you've got to walk to wherever you are because typically car parks on street parking are never near any fucking restaurant it becomes a bit of a rigmarole all evening and then you've got to do the same home where we've got to look quite lucky here because you can literally park outside the restaurant there's a car park around there if it's pissing down you've not got far to come to the door people aren't that fussed about getting overly dressed up so like there's a few things that like weren't thought of which have worked out in our favour and you don't realise it's too open like had you thought about those things beforehand or was it more some of them no but the transport links was one that's why we didn't sort of aim at the other villages close by to it because they're a bit remote albeit there's some train stations nearby nothing is close to what we've got here yeah and and and the the shape of the restaurant and the kitchen that was that I just have these pictures as well for people that we can put them on the screen people listen who's the photographer?

1:22:40Robbie McIntosh. Robbie McIntosh. Yeah, from Naples. Yeah, he's from Naples. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's that geek? What's the old geek? Tutor Passa. What does that mean? Everything passes. Everything passes. You've got to live in the moment because it's not here forever. How do you guys apply that to what you're doing now? Oh yeah, yeah. What do you mean in terms of how do you live that? We haven't taken it too seriously. Although... So what does it say? Everything shall pass? I think it means actually it will pass. It will pass. Too tall passes. So good things, bad things, ugly things. Yeah, don't take things too seriously.

1:23:18It's going to move on. How do you not take it seriously so much? Well, obviously, we're serious about food and there is a business run behind this. But we've enjoyed ourselves in the process. We've gone on food tours. like we've we've gone like nights out like we've partied we've we've we've grown with the business like in a in a in a casual way as the dining experience is like when you say like you don't take it too seriously obviously we've got a job to do and we've got to deliver a product that people love but we have had the ultimate amount of fun in the process it's not it's not been like doom and gloom for us and we are one of the fortunate businesses that are sort of surviving in this climate but I think most of the reason why we've done well is because we all get along you know there's like I say the four business partners we are all friends we we we we go out on the wine tours we'll go abroad we'll do our food research we'll do it all as friends yeah that's pain yeah we're doing it as mates and like we've got like friends of the restaurant now like who are our friends who are just in here all the time like our a maintenance guy, a couple of other guys, they come with us now, they'll do the food festivals with us, they'll give us a hand, the restaurants start to become this hub for people that we know who come in constantly, and we take them on our abroad trips with us, we'll include them in the events, in the restaurant, and we've had an amazing time in the last two years, we're just socialising, we've got now a community around there, of, you know, everyone that's been involved with this restaurant, you know, the Joyner, the Sparkies, the, you know, everyone gravitates towards it.

1:25:11And we include everyone in everything. And if we announce something, that we're going somewhere, we're doing something, you can guarantee there'll be 15, 20 people who want to get involved just because it's us. That's sick. Yeah. I want to get into both your backstories and how you guys kind of met, because I think it's important for context. So you were DJing, mate? in different venues. I remember you saying that you almost went to all these different restaurants and had a list of things you didn't like. Yeah. Talk to me about that and then what was on that list of shit you just thought, oh, I don't like that.

1:25:43Like 12 years ago, I quit my job because I was offered a, because I was DJing on the weekends and I had like a, as a sales manager in the day. What were you selling? I worked for an electrical wholesalers. So like anything electrical really to electrical contractors and whatnot. Very much building trade. And I got offered this job which was because I was DJing on the weekends and I got offered it up. What sort of music were you playing? So I was predominantly sort of R &B and house and this job came up where it was like there was a I don't know if they're still going now but individual restaurant group where they pumped a load of money into putting live DJs on their terraces and their outdoor spaces.

1:26:30And my dad's old business partner at the time was the guy in charge of sort of curating the music and finding the DJs. And he come to me and said, do you want a full-time job here? Like, it's four days a week. It's really fucking good money. Low stress. Long hours, but low stress. I was like, yeah, do you know what? I will do because I've been driving around up and down motorways for the last four or five years. I fancy a change. So I jumped on it. I was doing four days a week. And I was moving around different restaurants because they're all over the northwest and even down to London. so I got the opportunity to work at a few different places over about a two year period when you spend 12 hours a day in a restaurant you pick up a lot of things what restaurants were you going to?

1:27:10so at the time there was piccolinos, bar and grills I think they'd just started taking over Gino De Campo restaurants at the time I worked in a lot never on the food side of things but I'd always been into food food has been my biggest passion so you pick up things when you're in there and I spent a lot of time observing because I'm there for 10-12 hours a day what are you DJing for 12 hours a day 10-12 hours a day what from like I suppose 12 like 12 in the afternoon until midnight some nights especially on the weekend they really invested a lot of money into creating this a broad atmosphere yeah yeah yeah again because now that's everywhere yeah this was 12 years ago so yeah I spent a lot of time there and one of the main places I worked was just in the city centre where Lee was working at the time and we just you know we just used to have fleeting conversations and stuff I always knew he was passionate about food because he'd always be making stuff off menu and letting me try things and this and that so we stayed in contact with each other but like not like anything more than just chatting online and stuff like that seeing how he was doing checking in and yeah you were working in Bermuda at the time weren't you or something yeah well I can't even remember how it came about you shouted me I was working in Bermuda but I was leaving Bermuda at the same time and I think you shouted me what are you still in Bermuda what are you doing because I'm planning this and I said funny enough I'm actually moving back so I'll give you a shout when I get back and then I moved back to London but I came down to visit Whereabouts in London were you?

1:28:39I moved back to Canary Wharf just because my brother lived there so Yeah yeah yeah I just moved in with him because it was available you know what I mean so but my plan was always to move back and work in London but obviously I took a bit of time off I took a year off just because I had an injury that needed to fix and then obviously in that year the restaurant's been found and we've gone from there and it was more or less perfect timing by the time this restaurant was ready I'd moved a few months before yeah and that's just sort of went in sync like that but yeah it was a pretty much pure fluke the timing of it I'd had enough of Bermuda and I was coming back What do you not like about Bermuda?

1:29:23I mean, when you're there for long enough, the food seems... Is it in the Caribbean? It's in between, like... Yeah, I think it is classed as Caribbean. It's just above the Caribbean. It's just in the middle of the city, and it's on its... Somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a beautiful island, but the food's stuck in the past, and the... I mean, unless you like golf or fishing, you're fucked, you know what I mean? The two, yeah, everybody knows your business, and... What sort of food were they doing? like it was a bit of a pastiche of like yeah but i mean you had a beach club a golf club and it was one was italian one was obviously seafood you had the main hotel i mean it was a beautiful hotel yeah it's a rose with the nice gas you know oh yeah lovely yeah yeah but still there's when you know you get a menu you can barely it's a hotel menu for x amount these kind of people it's you know we're still talking about herb crusted raxalam and stuff like that it's it's how did your creativity change when you came here with the with back to the grittiness oh god yeah yeah banging out left right and specials left right and center and did you feel like you have i love heston's describes creativity and i believe this because i have all these i'm right right so i have all these fucking ideas and it's like it's like a rain sweeties falling down yeah i think it's the best definition of creativity and you're just like trying to catch it write it down was it like was Was it a spittering of rain in Bermuda and then like to rain?

1:30:50100%, yeah. But even like, towards, even that's why I left. Because I couldn't even be arsed for food at the time. I was like, this is mind-numbing, so I have to leave. And then obviously I left. My idea was really to go back and work in London again. But when you look at what you've got to learn to live comfortably in London, you can do a lot better here. You know, you can earn a decent wage here. You can have a decent flat. not too far away from your job and it's comfortable. Whereas in London, you know, you're in a shared house, you're struggling, the fucking, the travel's horrendous. And I much preferred it up here.

1:31:25So that was, and obviously when me and him connected, it was like, you know, good timing. Fuck it, we'll be a bit short, you know what I mean? Yeah, the travel thing is interesting in London because everything's 40 minutes away. Yeah. And that's considering, like, not, that's considered not far, I think, but it fucking takes ages. London is my favourite city to go to for food. even more so now that I don't live there what's one of your favourite restaurants? I mean, the cliche but it's St John I love, Wright Brothers in Borough Market has always been, I used to live around the corner from it, I used to it's one of them, it's got a buzz for me I love sitting at that counter, I love them the stands that they have every birthday or important event, I've always had it there and I've loved it I mean, Casa Crute on Bermondsey Street I love that Burmesee Street's got loads of good spots yeah erm I mean I could probably go out there erm yeah too many far too many to mention but it's it's some gaff London though like you just you can't keep up with what's going it's you the things that I hear that are opening up I'm like I've always just heard about the last thing that apparently is now old news and like I really want to get to Dorian like I'd absolutely love to give that a go oh it was so sick was it yeah Yeah, I was obviously going.

1:32:43You went to Mountain? Yeah, went to Mountain, like early doors. Trying to think elsewhere else. Yeah, because what is it? You're right, like they opened that Impala place, which was the guy from Kiln. That's open, that's the new thing. And then already kids opened, which is David Carter. Yeah, it's mad. It's like this new fucking place. And that's what I say. I was like, with this, you know, I spent a lot of time in Lisbon because my mate lived over there. and i realized that actually you know i love food so i'll bang out try a new restaurant so i was like i couldn't do the podcast there because you'd run out of places pretty quickly so doing it in the uk or maybe new york there's just so much constantly happening changing that you can keep fresh conversations happening the um mate so that's mad so you've got the the backstory of your your creativity changed when you came here.

1:33:35What were you learning, mate, about, what did you hate about restaurants? What was your list of things we don't want to do that? I don't want to be one of them guys who just comes on and bashes. Not to bash, but it's like, I think, I think knowing what to avoid is sometimes better than what to strive for. I do look at some restaurants and like,

1:33:56some of them just do bad food. Yeah, of course. And that's where we're at. and I think how do you not the basic principle is having good food and I don't view it as rocket science to do something well the simple dishes that can be done well what people will be blown away by and like although price isn't king for me I will pay for a good meal the worst thing is when I pay for a meal that's not good and I'm like on the review landscape people are people are most angry when they feel like they've had money taken off them for a bad bad service or a bad product and that's my biggest gripe is when when I go somewhere and it's not up to scratch and I've and I've paid for it and I'm like what this isn't sort of at the medium level this is when you go to what you would be classed as like a fancy restaurant or a high class restaurant you're like what have I actually just paid for there like if one thing about us is you will not leave hungry like we you'll see you'll see later like we our portion sizes if anything are fucking too big but generous but I've been to some place where I've like I've laughed like paying 200 quid and I'm like what the fuck have I just eaten and have I eaten so but I don't want to go too much into what I don't like about restaurants no no no I don't mean I don't mean bashing I mean more like I think you know positioning is all over the positioning yourself is ultimately being against something so overly overly big menus yeah i don't think can i don't think you can do that many things well yes when you see like these and they're like three pages long i've done like how you can do all those things well is fucking beyond me like you can't so overwhelmingly big menus are a red flag for me um elaborate cocktails what what plus 20 quid per cocktail i'm like i'm getting spanked here.

1:36:00I think also like, with not having, we're good at what we do, you know, we cook over fire, but when people have, they're trying to have a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but nothing's done well. You're trying to hit every target market. So red flags, yeah, are overwhelming the big menus because you can't cook all that well, it's impossible. Expensive cocktail menus, what I don't understand, and with weird and wonderful concoctions that are just names on a fucking board and then like starters, mains and desserts I'm not like that's that's not the style of dining I like to eat there's nothing wrong with that but like it's I class that as sort of an old school dining experience and I prefer to just like have everything on the table at the same time that's just how I like to eat and like trying little bits of everything rather than just being like my meal is my meal type thing yeah it's not a right to eat man I mean, the argument I've heard is when, you know, people have got a dish and they want to enjoy the whole dish.

1:37:01And, you know, people are annoyed when other people... I'm not. I want... I get my dish. I'm a greedy fucker. I want some of his as well. I want some of yours. But if I'm going to a gaff, I want to try and try everything. I'm not getting... But also, mate, we've been... Everyone thinks the small plates things is a new concept. Chinese and curry, which we've been eating for years, is essentially a small plates concept. But the only person who didn't do that was my granddad, which was hilarious. He used to order a curry. Yeah, yeah. He'd be like, right, that's my boon. Exactly the same with an uncle, yeah.

1:37:33Yeah, yeah. And he'd get his old boon and go like, bang, on his plate. And we'd be like, mate, what are you doing? So we'd been doing the small plates concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In our culture of Chinese and... Yeah, they'd literally been doing it for years as well. We haven't invented small plates. and that was one of the things that here like I love eating in Spain like Spain's one of my favourite places to eat and going out to a restaurant at 10 o 'clock at night when everyone's just coming out to eat because they eat so much later yeah they do yeah it's bad and just like when you're hungry and like you've had a few beers and you just can sit down in like a mega alleyway just scrann it up just absolutely just scrann it for fucking hours and just ordering and then being out and ordering more and more as you wish and like it just being little tastes of everything.

1:38:21That's fucking magic. That's the best way to eat. That is my opinion, the best way to fucking eat. Yeah, it's also people shit on small plates but don't shit on tapas. Yeah, exactly. It's double standard, isn't it? You can guarantee those people who are shitting on small plates are going out and eating tapas Indian and Chinese restaurants and having different dishes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're doing Chinese and Indians essentially tapas-style food. What would you say is the biggest scam in hospitality? The biggest scam?

1:38:51For me, I mean, for me. Fucking Food Awards, man. The Food Awards. The sketchy fucking Food Awards. Like such as? Well, I got invited. So we got invited to a Food Awards last year. And it was, can I say it and it be edited out because the **** Awards. and I got contacted like you've been nominated for this, this and this sorry this particular thing I was like oh cool, also you can nominate yourself for a couple of other categories if you like just fill out this form I was like alright that's cool so I filled out a couple of other categories which are like best newcomer I think we got asked to be like best newcomer sorry we were nominated for best newcomer and then I did best casual I did best casual restaurant because I thought that would be a similar field and then I think I did something about one of the chef category anyway I got an email about you've been nominated for two of the awards would you like to buy a table to come and support I was like okay yeah so this was like I viewed it as like this is our first big award it's like one of the big award shows in Manchester I was like yeah this would be pretty cool to win this so I was like and I was confident that we might be in with a chance because of the media coverage we've had and stuff so it was like how much is the table it was like fucking it was 200 pounds a fucking seat yeah and the table you had to buy a table of 10 but we were like so that's 2 grand yeah and obviously we've got there's 4 business partners so we've got quite a big family we had wives and girlfriends and people who wanted to come so it was like we needed 2 tables in the end which was like right do you know what we're inviting people out on the night and we'll cover the cost so it pays like 4 grand or something like that who were nominated for these fucking categories anyway after we paid it and stuff like that I managed to get to speak to the owner of the awards and I was like just out of interest like have you who came and who came and tried our restaurant and they was like oh no no one's bitten I said I'm so sorry what he's like yeah that's not how we vote he's like what do you mean that's not how you fucking vote like they had a panel of people obviously that hadn't been here that vote on they had a vote vote for you yeah they decide but then you look into some of the panel they link to some of the other gaffes and xyz yeah it was wild and it's like alright that's how it works so but from my understanding a lot of them work like that it's also what PR PR agency yeah like I think yeah the the award scope is the is the biggest scam and it's a scam on the restaurants part because you often have to cover your costs to go into these awards ceremonies and you have to pay for your staff to go and like you're paying for a table you pay for a meal you pay for a drink like all in all it's a night out and they've coaxed you into this night out to offer you in a while that fucking some of them you don't even fucking they've not even been to your fucking restaurant that's like a I think that's everyone's losing bar them situation yeah like did you win it no no we didn't we had a good night out fully enough where was it whereabouts was it was it like a black tide job yeah oh fucking full job mate yeah yeah was the food good room full of people was the food good what sorry man it was fucking shit yeah shit it was fucking 200 quid where was it full traffic yeah oh careful Cricket, man.

1:42:07What would you say the biggest scam is, mate, in hospitality? The biggest scam? I don't know, because, I mean, it's pretty hard to scam anyone now. Well, the thing that really fucks you off. I mean, proper gimmicky shit. You know what I mean? I can't... Yeah, gimmicks. Fucking smoking cocktails. Gimmicks on social media. Oh, whoa, whoa, we are a gimmick. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's not that much that fucks me off, to be fair. pass me in a wine glass yeah we've done that really yeah i've seen that it's it's hilarious that what were so i think what's fascinating about um uh i love cross-category learnings and i think djing so um djing and service are kind of similar from people i've spoken to in the sense you're trying to read a room, understand the energy, pick the next song or like, you know, offer the next dish.

1:43:10You know, there's a dance and an energy to it. Like, what are the lessons you took from DJing and understanding a room to putting on banging service here? I swear, some cunt left a comment on saying, I think it was Todd, he was like, Ryan was a DJ, like one of our first posts, like Ryan was a DJ in Manchester and some cunt wrote under it, like, I prefer all my chefs to be DJs. so I was like, you fucking wanker. I was like, but you like - Wait, so what did he say? He said, it was on the Todd video. Todd had done the video and like the video started with like, Ryan used to be a DJ in Manchester, but then some funny cunt has put underneath it, as I prefer all my chefs to be DJs over the other than chefs.

1:43:47And I was like, all right. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Fucking fair enough. But I was like, but you, you, pleasing a room full of people, pleasing a room full of people is similar whether you deliver a musical food. Like you play to the audience, like we're picking dishes that the masses are going to like. Like you generally pick music that the room is going to love. It's about pleasing people on their night out. And yeah, like obviously they're not one and the same thing. Like there's a lot more skill in probably cooking a dish than there is in mixing a tune. But like learning how to sort of please a room full of people, whether it be feeding them or giving them music and stuff like that it's about being tuned into your research and knowing what's going to work and what's not going to work like you don't turn DJing without tunes that you know is going to work like we wouldn't put something on the menu that we know so would you research before a night before a DJ and you'd research what venue yeah like obviously when you way back when like obviously you'd be on the lookout for new tunes classics this and that and you'd be and you'd be blending things together like there's not much different than curating a menu you're mixing classics with twists and a bit of modernisation and finding things that work and what people love.

1:45:02But I think that's any product delivery. No, but it's interesting. So again, it links back to doing what you want to do, probably the artist piece versus giving people what they love. And I think out of our conversation today, that is an interesting tension. And the thing in the middle is ego. What Nick Finchuli said to me is he goes, I've got a rule which is one for me, one for you. So if he's playing a set, he'll play a song that he thinks is a banger that some people may love. Some people think, what the fuck is this? It might be a bit weird. And then to satiate the audience after that, he'll play something that everyone fucking knows.

1:45:36And it's just a surly banger. It's just like gets people going. I think that is something we're trying to learn to do is, you know, give people what they want, but then also ask the things that you need that are in here. Some people leave the arse and want to be educated and want to try stuff new. and then the majority of people turn up because they know they like something and they want to go and experience a variation of that or something that they love and they know what they're going to order and that's that. We do our research to make sure our delivery's there and then hopefully the customer loves it when they walk through the door.

1:46:07So how would you guys research before you create a menu? We're going to piss quite a lot. Yeah, quite a lot, yeah. So last year we had, I don't want to fucking sound dramatic, but a life-changing trip to San Sebastian where we ate our way around it like me Lee Jack and Dave Dave just walked in he's one of the other business partners we had a trip there didn't we like fucking and it was literally we didn't turn it into a turbo piss up like we actually ate around because they can sometimes get carried away if you get out of hand but even all everything we ate there nothing was complicated everything was simple and even then when you've seen that and that is class now as a food capital of Europe isn't it we were on the right tracks you know what I mean and obviously it we you know nothing like it was simple cooking but some simple cooking doing very well you know yeah yeah yeah honestly like we there wasn't a restaurant where because because it's san samsung a lot of them are rammed it is there is a lot of tourists there you can't get around that but even the quieter ones that you think do you know like normally if you'd be walking down a food alley and like there'd be a few quiet ones and a few busy ones you think there's a reason there quiet even if you called into like an empty one the standard would be so high on that street or in that town where did you go what place did you hit up for research in San Sebastian I'll give you the list after here remembering all the names the best one we went to was I can't remember the name of it it's down a little alleyway but we sat and had lunch outside we had the entire menu some of it twice we had we had four bottles of wine and it was 260 euros or something and we ate you know what i mean it's every single dish blew us away but we took we took things away doing that like going like the same thing in lisbon where you just go and eat yeah we were in lisbon literally a couple of weeks ago did you go to sal grosso in lisbon what's that one is that chicken gaff no no it's like just down this little side street it's so funny so the menu's on the wall and there's there's this old canadian couple sat on a two top there and they'd just been on like a not ferry like a fucking cruise and i was steaming and i was hanging from the night before and i was with my mate bricker who's a unit like we can put food away and the woman came around and i literally said i want one of everything and the woman goes to her husband she goes oh my fucking god these guys are fucking crazy and i was just like i don't give a fuck more and more food's coming and it's just like yeah yeah that is the best that to me For me it's happiness, man.

1:48:40It's stuff in your face, loads of cold beers, loads of cigs, moving from beers to red wine and then potentially like, to be honest, I wouldn't even like, I kind of go out now, but not really. It's even that's the same for us. Like we're going out, we're going for a scrap and then we're going to get carried away after. But it's, we'll probably stay in the gaffer as long as we can. Yeah, until the keeper's out. Until we get asked to leave. And that's how it goes for us now. What's the art of eating out from the other side as a consumer how do you think yeah yeah like what's if you go to a restaurant what's the best way to approach because I think that is an art I think by the time I get when I found somewhere that I want to go I've seen it a handful of times I've asked people about it and then by the time you get there you know you're that looking forward to it do you look at a menu before you go not really I wouldn't say a menu I look at someone's social media and go for it that way but I think some of the best restaurants like my well we went recently Bar Shrimp I fucking love that yeah Bar Shrimp that's what you recommended to the last one so that's the is it like a cocktail place yeah it's underneath it's this higher ground and they're a great gaff in itself but they've opened up a little bar they've got a DJ on there's a big counter yeah like cold seafood like oysters yeah seafood platters but then the small plates are banging as well and the cocktails are great yeah but yeah I love that I fucking love that gaff but I'm not like fucking like I I'll go for like we had we had to break down from a festival the other day and we went into like we'll go for tacos at like Macimeo like what's it called Pico's Pico's Tacos there Pico's Tacos like we'll just I eat casually like I don't I don't particularly like dress up to go out for a meal like I prefer to like go you know what rice and three yeah the three is that still five pound yes I've not been free I've probably not been since I opened the restaurant but I that's one that's in the northern quarters yeah this couple was too yeah I remember going there and it's just on the tin trays or the silver yeah mega absolutely fucking mega three curries for fiver yeah oh mate this and that this and that yeah yeah and there used to be one called Caban I can't remember it used to be the green one on the corner but I think it moved but I prefer just to be like open minded casually walking in somewhere I know it's going to be good or I've heard good things about it and even if it's not like I'm always going in with an open mind because some people go in with over expectations like I think if you if you egg something up in your head you're quite easily like easily disappointed aren't you so open minded dining and just casual dining for me is like the staple of me going out for something to eat like yeah mate I can't remember we're going to have to wrap this up because you're opening soon but what's final question then we can get on we'll eat your food which we can't fucking wait for man what's one truth you believe that most people disagree with you on

1:51:38timing is everything Dom timing is everything and you can't and this I think timing and luck timing and luck are pretty much the same thing like I think timing and luck are just different badges of the same meaning but and you can't you can not predict timing timing comes to you as you can't predict luck can you I believe you the harder you work the harder you get what are your thoughts on that yeah yeah it's like I remember it all saying like the more I practiced the better I got kind of thing but yeah in terms of look and timing like the timing of this place was everything like we can't deny that we've not had luck in the process like like you say you work hard enough you'll find yourself getting lucky at some point but you can't you can't predict the timing as you can't guarantee yourself luck but every now and again someone will come along who just hits the right timing or hits the right spot at the right time with the right idea and you know there's some restaurants that are like five years too early and they don't work and then you know such as not just as concepts for example oh god like there's been some like really mega sort of Pan-Asian-y type restaurants in Manchester but probably like maybe five years too late is Australasia still going?

1:52:57yeah it is yeah yeah yeah they're good friends of mine actually who operate that because that's been going well that was when I was at uni it's changed hands a few times but the principles are still the same the staples are still the same it's the one that's in the glass triangle yeah yeah yeah still downstairs we're staying by that yeah yeah but yeah like some things just I just miss the mark by a few years and like and it's sad to see my mate Jack Rubin runs Purdy and Fig which is the the spray yeah and you know we used to just it's mad like we used to just he was at uni in Nottingham we used to just get on the session and talk about business ideas but he's just a really amazing entrepreneur but But he, I remember going around London Fields with him in 2016, and he created this idea called Pinger, which was essentially what, it was getting people to come and deliver, say you wanted to go and get some toothpaste from the corner shop, someone could go in and get it for you and bring it to your home.

1:53:54That was five years too early. As soon as COVID happened, you get zap, now Deliveroo go into the co-op for you. And he said exactly the same thing. He goes, a lot of this is down to timing. He got lucky. So the timing didn't work for him then. He kept working hard, kept getting lucky. Bang, COVID happens. They're building all this fucking, you know, what was the stuff we almost put on their hands? Hand wash. Hand sanitizer. Sanitizer. So they built that business. Again, talked about killing your babies. They fucked that off. And they were like, this is a million pound business, but this is going to change soon.

1:54:27And they took all that knowledge and built a consumer facing brand. and now who'd have thought but people want that spray stuff in 2000 in the year 2000 my dad used to have an apartment in Manchester an apartment? yeah an apartment like just one of the first apartments that was built and well obviously I was young at the time but I used to go and stay with him on the weekend and to order a Chinese there used to be a thing called the buzzing butler in Manchester shout out the buzzing butler if you're still going the buzzing butler? the buzzing butler I used to ring him and he would go and get your takeaway so he had a menu and he would go and get your takeaway and put some money on it and bring it to your door.

1:55:01That was fucking 2000, man. 2001, that. So that was well in advance of delivery. The buzzing butler. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of this stuff we've been doing for years. It's just timing. Timing and resource and finance. Did you raise money to open this? Yeah, so obviously there's four of us involved now. So, you know, we're all financial business partners. So we all put money in to raise the capital. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, amazing. What about you, mate? What's one truth you believe most people disagree with you on? I don't think most people would disagree, but I mean, it's probably the most obvious.

1:55:34You've got to have fun. You know, I've worked in gas for, you know, you do for your career and I've fucking hated that entire year. You know, it's a chef thing. You'll work a year here, learn as much as you can, fuck off, work somewhere else. But the, the core team I have, I've pretty much had from the beginning is because, you know, the food is taken seriously, but we have a good fucking time along the way. You know what I mean? You've got to. When you start getting caught up and it becomes this rule that, I mean, if you employ the right people, there shouldn't need to be that many rules. You know, you should be able to trust people to do the jobs and not get carried away.

1:56:14So I think, yeah, just enjoying it and having a good time. How do you have fun? How do you release the valve? Beers or is it? Beers, wine. Yeah, beers, wine. The banter. Nothing's, you know. We go out, like I said, we do go out to all four owners of this restaurant me, Jack, Lee and Dave go out at least once once or twice a month whether it be even if like we go down to Seoul House or just and have our meetings from there and then just have a night out after that just to break things up like if you just carry on just like hammering the seriousness and like just everything just becomes work, work, work, work and you forget why you did it in the first place I think you're just fucked you're fucked mate, mate, mate well I'm a lot of these questions I ask selfishly but I need a reminder of that the last couple of months has been like really serious trying to think about like what's the big vision of where we're taking this thing and it's just it hasn't been that enjoyable but that's why you know coming up Liverpool yesterday here today I might need to be I want to be saying I was saying to Rich this morning so I want to be doing free shoots a week because that's what to me is fun all this businessy bollocks around the side after a while it's like so I haven't done a shoot in basically for the whole of august because we were trying to sort out and i fucking ate it yeah yeah you know i want to be going out there and eating munch and just meeting sick people yeah fucking mate your g's thank you absolutely thank you so much i'm so much to try that it was so much fun sick thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink bands thank you so much