Margot Henderson, Rochelle Canteen: Successful Female Chefs in a World of Blokedom, The Hidden Genius of Fergus Henderson and St. John, Forging Her Own Path, Gentle Hospitality, The Art of Drinking a Negroni

38:22That's all part of the theatre of the restaurant. So when you arrive at 12, it's quiet. It's just the finishing touches of the waiters doing their things and then there's the build-up and the excitement as guests arrive, lunch happens. If Fergus orders a half a bottle of champagne, the whole room's having half a bottle of champagne. I like that, pal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's about the simplicity, but there's great beauty in that as well. And letting things, letting the customers interact as much as, you know, if you had music or paintings, The customers are very much part of all that as well.

39:06Yeah, there's a kind of a brutal beauty in the simplicity of the whole thing. But the uniforms, when we were at the French house, I argued against having uniforms and he stuck to his gun. So the jackets that they were at St. John, we had them at the French and he was adamant. I said, oh, it's a bit stiff. So what were you pushing for? Like, I don't know, T-shirts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something a bit crap. But the jackets made it and it was so brilliant, this tiny little place and everyone had their uniforms and that lovely, that classic restaurant feel is very much part. But also just the cooking with fish on the bone, meat on the bone, that was all, you know, that was different and had a strength to it too.

39:57I read somewhere that you said, I think you said, Fergus is the artist and I'm the craftsperson. I don't know if you remember, I've gone back deep into the research weeds, but I think it's interesting. So we talked about kind of Fergus is the artist, the architect with St. John being incredibly stubborn, brightly so with the vision, the brutal beauty of simplicity. I'd love to, so maybe let's say that's the artist. I'd love to explore, Margot, with you, like the difference with the craftsperson and kind of how you've made your own mark differently with Rochelle in this wonderful restaurant? I mean, I suppose an artist is always giving you the meaning why.

40:40And I never know what the meaning why is. That's why I married her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He can do the art. He can do that. I like, you know, like a craft is more, you know, we're talking about skill. Not that focus doesn't have skill, but, you know, sometimes people say chefs are artists, I mean I'm like I don't know, sometimes they can be if they have a big floss, a big idea, but I'm about the craft of a restaurant, I love the ins and outs of a I'm obsessed with restaurants, I love them I always have done it's the gathering of all those things, the staff the food, the produce, the guests all coming together I like all the ins and outs of the business you know side of it what do you like about the business side of it well not so much the actual XLS sheets I get so confused in those things the planning how are we going to make this work you know are we are we going to be full and if we're not what is the problem what do we need to do making energising it for the staff staff making them because it's all about the staff really and whether they're enjoying their jobs how how active are they because if they're responding well to it well then the customers will respond well how do you make it how again that's i think a lot of people listen we have a lot of people listening to this who own restaurants and or food brands and it kind of and i think what you said there, Margot, about being all about the staff.

42:22Like, how do you actually do that? How do you make people, when they come here to this part of Shoreditch, feel something and then that transfers to the... Well, I let my chefs do almost anything they want. No, it has to have a sense of what Rochelle is. Right. So, you know, you can't go off piece, but there is sort of quite a wide area to cook in, to be yourself in but put your own ideas in. For people to have their own ideas is great. Is there an example of that where it's like... So the menu changes every day, the chefs are writing the menu. I mean, obviously it repeats itself and there's a flow to it.

43:04I mean, how many different green sauces in one restaurant do. I mean, it's sort of, I like it that it's not exacting. I always think, oh, my God, we should be more exacting, we should be more of this. But I like that sort of it's a neighbourhood restaurant that people come from far and wide to. But there's also, we have a beautiful garden. It's a lovely place to come to work. We are good to our staff. We hope they have a love of food. They eat well here. We give them good perks. I mean, you know, it's just about trying to be a family and understanding everyone's lives as well, isn't it? I love that, understanding everyone's lives.

43:46That's, again, simple. What you've said there is so simple but so profound because it's like when you can understand what someone's feeling and going through, there's just kind of this beautiful empathy runs through it. And actually, we were talking about kind of the right beginning, the kind of hunter cookery versus gatherer cookery. or restaurants, there's a light kind of, someone wrote this, like feminine touch when you're here. And I think it is that kind of what you've said there, that understanding everyone's lives. And there's kind of an, empathy is the word I felt. Empathy is the word.

44:19I can't, I don't know if you can put that in a plate of food. I don't know if you can. Maybe that's me being the wanky artist here. But like there does feel that kind of. The food's a bit rough. I mean, Hector's not, the chefs are not as rough as me. I'm quite a rough sort of chef. and I don't want it to look too exacting, but then at the same time, that's quite hard to teach sometimes because you say, oh, you've been too precise there. I don't know. I mean, you know, they can be really, and that's a bit up your bum to me, and I want it to be more like, ooh, and that's very difficult. Suddenly they're putting great big blobs on there.

44:57Really heavy. You're like, no, I didn't say that. How you get what is in here to there? Fergus always says, tell them the reason why. But I try that. I mean, you know, we're constantly in a restaurant. It's about small details that you're repeating all the time and you've been doing for years and it can be very frustrating. Yeah. And it's all about cleaning, really. I mean, we've just got to keep on cleaning, cleaning and cleaning. But at the same time, we have these joyous moments where we cook lovely food and we have great produce coming in and that's happening. That's an exciting thing that's happening in Britain now.

45:35We are, you know, we're getting meat straight from farms, you know, rather than middlemen so much now. We're getting fish from dayboats that are coming directly to restaurants instead of going to the, I mean, I don't want the big markets to go because they're a sort of beautiful thing as well. But there is a lot more of direct going on. Like we get vegetables from wonderful farms like Lindley. And, you know, that's a very exciting thing. On a Wednesday, we have the most massive vegetable delivery you've ever seen. And vegetables in this country have been a bit boring. And they pick the, you know, they dig the potatoes and they put them in a coal store for a year and then we get them.

46:16And it's like, come on, can we get something a bit younger and fresher? I mean, obviously the French understand that. They love a young vegetable. But we've taken longer. I think we were going for weight. It's all that. And now, you know, but it's expensive. Yeah, I'd love, so I think what you've said there is that I love the kind of the subtle art of imperfection in terms of, you know, what pulls you to, Fergus said, tell them why, like tell them really the reason why. Like, what is the reason why you kind of like this? I think you went like that, that. What is that? I think just aesthetically, I like the look of it.

46:55But I think, I mean, I love precise food as well, but it's not in, I think it's about personality as well. You know, and your personality definitely comes out in your food. I'm not going to be, I had to cook with Italian, skinny Italian chef, you know, three mission stars once. And we were doing his salad and I had to put three of this herb into that leaf, three of that one, four. And then it comes around to like five minutes. But with the tweezers, I use the tweezers. I mean, he is incredible, but it's just not in my personality. And I suppose, and we can't all be the same, can we? Yeah. Oh, no, we all want to be different.

47:47And a lot of people don't want to cook like we cook. But I think they're also, there's a lot we all get from each other. so sometimes we're looking at the more precise fine dining and trying to take some of that into our world not that you probably noticed but we are we're looking at everything and everyone is you know i think people are responding to i also think i think empathy when we talk about empathy is understanding people's i don't i'm probably giving the wanky why reason here but from what i from what i understood in terms of when i came here with my friends and now I'm being forgetful of what we had.

48:24We had the Sutton Woo Pie, which was delicious. We had like a, I think it might have been a panko, like a panko crusted, it's escaping me. The food was delicious. Cookie dough ice, chocolate ice cream. It was just all simple, so simple. But I was like, well, empathy is understanding people's imperfections. And I think there's a feeling of empathy when I come here. And then the imperfections on the plate are kind of like, Well, that's kind of life. Do you know what I mean? Maybe Instagram makes everyone feel like their life is tweezer poked and it all looks like a perfect velouté of life. You want it to be delicious.

49:01Yeah, yeah. And also I think there's different ways we like to eat. Sometimes, you know, we want to eat at the clove club, but that might not be very often. Well, we'd like to, but we can't afford it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes we just want to go out for a meal and have delicious food that is simply cooked and be more about, you know, with our friends. And, you know, a restaurant to me is the food. I mean, can a waiter save a meal or can a chef save a meal? Or what, you know, say it's all going down. I think a waiter can save a meal. Front of house, it's amazing the power of front of house.

49:41You know, it's in, I mean, obviously not if you're paying£300 for a meal. and you want it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want the whole thing. You want the full shebang. Yeah, and I love the full shebang. I like waiters all around me, all that sort of thing. It's a theatre. It's, you know, I've been to Noma. It's like going to the opera and it's a different thing and the way they pace it and, you know, they've thought about every detail. But this is a very different way of cooking and eating and the menu's changing and flowing. It's just, it's all, yeah. And imperfection is one of the things that we like to express with love.

50:23Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I kind of have the same approach with this podcast. People say I don't really, I very rarely edit it unless someone says something they want out. Because some podcasts are like, you end up sounding like a fucking robot like that. Do you know what I mean? Life is kind of the imperfection. That speaks to me deeply. In terms of, so what I find interesting. So you've got Fergus here, kind of artist, staunchly kind of on his beliefs. Margot, kind of imperfection, empathy, gentle cookery, craftsmanship and or craft. Yeah, craft. Fergus taught me the gentle cooking. OK, OK, OK.

51:03He taught me that. OK, yeah, yeah. So you got rid of the jus. So how are you guys? He taught me lots because I didn't really know what. I've just cooked in lots of restaurants and followed chefs. And it was starting. I knew that I wanted to cook simply. I knew that. What made you know that? Like, was that just... I just think instinctively, I got my first head chef job and I was writing the menu and I was looking to Elizabeth David, Simon Hopkinson. You know, Simon Hopkinson was my completely, you know, I was in love with him. I still am. He's the best. And then I went and worked for Charles Fontaine and he was doing...

51:42I mean, it just felt at that time, he had this dish on, which was sliced tomatoes in a row with anchovies going down it with a vinaigrette poured over it. It just seemed like so simple. And Fergus had done pigeon and peas. And I was like, oh, my God, I've gone to a pop-up. We didn't call them pop-ups then, but he did this pop-up for a week. And he did pigeon and peas. And I just thought that was outrageously exciting because it was so simple. but he um we still going yeah i'm just checking there um i can't remember what we're talking about god yeah the simplicity yeah yeah but he taught me that as well i mean we came together you know i was 27 years old it was very exciting we got each other we were having we were cooking a japanese meal together at home and everyone was going to make their own sort of wraps and We could have bought one packet of nori, but we bought six.

52:41I thought, I love this guy. I just knew it then. That's what I wanted to do, but I was always nervous because everyone said, oh, that's too much. But we bought, and we both knew that we thought six was perfect. It wasn't that we would use it all or not, but we wanted that feeling of generosity. And then we spent years having people to our restaurants and our home for meals. so we have cooked together so much and I am his biggest fan and I think he's a fan of mine so it's a coming together and we both bring a lot of each other of ourselves to each other and then so this and then so this gentle kind of generosity is how you're similar how would you say you're different because you both forge different paths and then where I want to go next is we'll talk about Hector and what the influences he's picked from each of them Fergus is much more strict.

53:37Well, I'm from New Zealand. You know, I can have a bit of this and a bit of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it's New Zealand food culture. It's coming now. But, you know, we don't really come from anything. We've got Hokey Pokey ice cream. What's Hokey Pokey ice cream? It's vanilla ice cream with, you know, honeycomb in it. Honey, you'd call it honeycomb. Okay, yeah, yeah. You'd call it Hokey Pokey. But it's like, it's on every ice cream parlor, you get Hokey Pokey ice cream. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just in fancy restaurants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that probably came from Scotland.

54:07And, you know, all our food comes, and there's Maori food, but that was the hungi. I mean, you can't cook a hungi. But now, through amazing fine dining chefs like Ben Shuri and people like him, he's in Melbourne, you know, they've brought some of the great food, I mean, you know, that great culture of Maori food onto a fine dining plate. And he's done things like that. He's very much about Aboriginal food. So, you know, that is all going. But I am more a sap, I suppose. I'll take it. You know, I've taken, I'll take all sorts of cultures. Oh, but there's a quote of someone who said to me, it's like all great artists steal.

54:52And David Bowie's got a quote, which is, this is it, the only art I'll ever study is the art I can steal off. You know, he's the most pioneering. Yeah, I'm a thief, but then you have to make it your own. yes you have to make you have to try and make it your own is there an example of that because that's what i think originality is i don't think anything's truly original i think you're you're basically being like a this is what laura said to me laura from um laura and chris from canada said to me um we're like a magpie so we go to a restaurant we'll go to we'll take my friend works for them on the uh kind of the grocery retail side my friend jess she's like she was like we'll literally go to manchester and we will look at what what this will be like a magpie and take little bits of these different restaurants and then we'll come back and we'll sit down and say how do we want to do this at caravan what's your is there an example of like fergus wouldn't do that okay interesting he wouldn't do that what how where does he get his ideas from then he he from from his well from his family from himself from his history from him from him whereas i'm a bit more of a magpie yeah yeah yeah i don't focus i mean he's he's always thinking about food and what it is that he loves and he really responds to other people's cooking and loves it but it's not like he would that's what is so brilliant about saint john it's so sure so timeless as well and it's so sure of itself and what it is whereas sometimes i can be all over the place it's beautiful there's no right there's no right or wrong in any of this the But I think there's a real lovely feeling of empathy when you come here and kind of the imperfection.

56:30I have a lot of imperfections and a bit of, like, you know, a few things that when I come here it kind of feels like, you know, everything's going to be sweet. It's nice and relaxed. Also, I think the fact that it's in this... In fact, you've got a garden or courtyard, I think the fact you've got to press the buzzer, there's a genius magic to that. What was the why behind that? Well, we can open the door. Okay. It just is. it's not like some plan it just is people say so how did you come to this it's just the whole restaurant has evolved Melanie and I opened, James who owns the building said do you want to open a restaurant here, we said yes then we found a table in the building we put that there Giles Deacon was making clothes here so he came in that day and then the doorbells started buzzing but I think to that point it does feel like even today when i'm pressed as i've called podcasts today but but like it feels like there's something but we had catering as well yes so we did two things multitasking i'm always into the multitask if you're going to be slow i've always thought if we're slow we can just sell duck-laking carrots yeah you know you need to be thinking of different things am i going to put something in a jar or you know we can't sit on our laurels and think oh we're just going to be slow yeah yeah yeah but so we had two but now we have one we're not multitasking so much that's interesting we're going to get on to that so i'm loving understanding the way both this whole thing kind of operates and this is kind of zuzu is just perfect but then you said fergus gets his ideas because i always like um finding discovering new things when i do these conversations and one of the common themes is this magpie effect i've never really heard it if someone goes, they actually look back in their history, is I think what you said, Margot.

58:26Where do you think he gets, what is his history? When he was an architect, he started an architectural movement called ArchiCulture with his partner and Jack Burnett Stewart. And it was, all his drawings for architecture were about eating halls. One was a whale with a great eating hall in it. One was, I mean, they went for Hastings Pier to do the pier that came second, but you had to take your shoes off and walk down the wooden floor. I mean, it's almost like something you would find now and then there'd be a sushi bar at the end. But it was all about food, and he was definitely, and he, but it was, yeah, it was a food that his mother had cooked, so she was from Lancashire.

59:17Whereabouts in Lancashire? Bolton. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. From Bolton. But really good food. But there was a time where they had, Machala Hazan had just brought Italian food to Britain. So they had great cookbooks then, and they were reading them. Not like now. Are we reading anything? Now they're just for like a display thing, aren't they? Now we've just got this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were reading books and getting their food culture from books. And there was a great food culture in Britain in middle-class people's homes. You know, they were learning about pasta and olive oil. I mean, one of the first dinners I cooked at Fergus's parents' house, it was for about 40 people.

1:00:00And we started with brandard, salt cod, and toast. And everyone had that as a starter. Oh, no, we had artichoke vinaigrette. Everyone had an artichoke. Piles and piles of leaves. And then we had the brandard. And then I think a dessert. But that was it. I thought, God, these guys are cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, whoa. I mean, that's quite simple. And they had tripe and things. I mean, you know, but they'd gone to Paris, had travelled a lot. His parents are architects. Architects, I think, are the best eaters. Oh, go on, tell me about that. They're always hungry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've gone to a lot of dinners, big dinners for people.

1:00:40Artists, well, they love their food too. Yeah. But I think architects, you need a lot of food for architects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they eat a lot, and if they've been given it, it's all gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. It is. I really think they're pretty good eaters. I mean, in the amounts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the art world, they love their food. What? These are generalisations. Oh, no, of course. Yeah, of course. So then how would you say, what would you say, it's just interesting seeing Fergus, Margot, then Hector's now, he's head chef here now, isn't he? He's head chef.

1:01:18How is he similar and different? How is he kind of taken from the mix of you guys? Well, he's battling, isn't he? He's down there battling.

1:01:29Well, you know, he's 30 and he's... So he ages me, actually. Yeah, and I think, you know, he's getting going. I mean, he's really into Trinidadian food. He worked in Australia for the Trinidadian chef there. They're doing a dinner this week at Crivatus, which is Trini food, which he's doing with his friend Celeste. But, you know, he's very much about British food, produce. He's doing a great job here. But I can see there is a difference. He's really into the whole bringing the butchery. He learned about butchery in Italy. doing butchery there. So he's bringing in the things that he's learnt along the way.

1:02:14And I think he respects his parents. And their ideas. That's hilarious. But he likes, he also likes like really good, like that sort of quite macho meat, sauces, you know, in a burger. You know, he likes all that stuff too. He's quite, he's got, yeah, he's got a lot of, he's got different things yes it's interesting seeing almost I suppose I like things a bit plainer yes yes he likes to sauce it up sauce it up maybe which is quite a thing now isn't it you know I'm not I'm not talking about the jus I'm talking about you know your different mayonaises your different chilli sauces your different this you know and there is fun it's fun yeah yeah it's like plain food it's it's still in there just Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:03:07It's interesting. I just find it crazy how everything evolves so, so quickly. One thing I've got to go back to just out of sheer curiosity is you talked about Maori cuisine. Yeah. Never heard of that before. Well, it's not. What kind of food is that? Well, it's the foliage. I mean, leaves and things like that. It would have been birds back in the day because it was only birds there and they had proper bird houses to hang all the birds. I mean, but we're not allowed to. They don't eat pigeon or anything in New Zealand. It's all protected. And a pigeon is also a sacred bird in New Zealand. So I did once say to a few old Maori guys, don't you ever wish you could eat a pigeon you know where I live we eat them all the time it's crazy why is it protected this isn't like just the native birds they're very beautiful they looked after it this bird thing is a bit of a problem I think now yeah woodcock what do you mean by that as in eating woodcock I feel a bit bad now I think it's my age as you head towards death I should have saved those little woodcock birds I do love a woodcock they're very yummy

1:04:54Oh my god, I am so, so, so excited. is longer than the river nile but they also share risk and invest in brands that they really believe are a force for good that brands that they believe are going to be the next big thing like how the snack that gives back but even more exciting news big fish want to speak to the next wave of small challenger food and drink brothers that are destined for big things the raconteurs the movers shakers buccaneering visionaries so look if you want to speak to big fish and just have a chat get your brand in front of them then drop me a message my mate louis from local beer amazing beer was in their office aka la fishbowl uh last week chatting to perry freddie and the big fish crew so drop me a message if you would like to speak to them bohemi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first 100 stockists to wholesale boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger boemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollie's ollie's been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using boemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff is coming to podcast in a couple of week weeks he uses it to manage a team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using bowie me look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time islands um but you know it's more about you know it's all food is looking at what you what what fish you have what what you respond to right here and now isn't it yeah it's a little bit harder in london but you know in a place like new zealand it's looking at buying you know getting your fish that is locally your vegetables but native things as well so there's a lot of people learning about native please i don't know anything about it but i've been to restaurants there and they really are going deep into what they what is growing wild they're foraging you know they're doing all that and it's exciting and that is because of I suppose Instagram, you know people taking ideas and you can see that they've been influenced but they're doing their own food and it's you know because they have the most amazing oysters, all sorts of things which maybe in the past we didn't cook so well not oysters but you can't there's power crayfish all sorts of things but you also you can't take much of it it's very protective lots of things are protected i suppose one of the beauties of instagram is it is much easier for that as as a cuisine as an idea to spread now like albeit not because you can't be active to the animals the um i want to talk about bourdain and um he i've like i'm obsessed with him like as soon as i read kind of one of the big inspirations for doing this podcast was when i read kitchen confidential um i think he's just a fucking legend an all-time legend i know you guys i think he said saint john was his favorite restaurant in the world that's fucking fuck off fucking restaurant i remember i remember watching i think it was on youtube like 2001 uh ball day when he came to he did he was did he do it twice with saint john i think yeah yeah but one of the old school when He was like literally was on TV, but I was smoking a ciggy.

1:08:34Like, yeah, he's earring in like much younger. And then I think he did one slightly old, like later on with Jay Rayner. Talk to me about like the first day you met him. Like what, where was that? What did that feel like? If you can remember. I can't remember. But he was Fergus's great friend. They got on so well. They were very connected. They just got it straight off. They were like, he's a very warm, funny, clever, brilliant guy. Very nervous as well. Really? Yeah, very nervous. We did a dinner at the Groucho once and he would be asked a question and he could take it and go, but at the same time his hands were shaking under the table.

1:09:16Really? He was quite shy. Interesting. He was a very sensitive, lovely person. We adored him and he adored. I mean, we went to New York and visited him when he was still cooking in his restaurant. We were all smoking like crazy. And then they brought in the no smoking law and we're all still smoking. He's taking the fines. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it came that you couldn't smoke anymore. It was over. Yeah. But we did all fight it a little bit in the beginning. Bit stupid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, change is always difficult. Yeah, yeah. Well, especially with his cigarettes. I remember when I went to New York, I went to light up a cigarette because you're not allowed to smoke on the rooftops and you're not allowed to drink outside.

1:09:59So I was expecting to go out for a pint in the cig. and I was like well mate you can't do this there's not many people smoking you in America versus here I don't think which is probably a good thing but not as fun the so when you said him and Fergus and you guys you just got it what was what do you think it was because I yeah I think it's just about an energy and also it's about restaurants you know you speak the same language you love the same things It's, you know, it's not complicated. I think it's quite base. Like a drink or two, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's got something to do with it.

1:10:39Love a long lunch. A long lunch. You know, he liked a long lunch. Do you think, what do you think is better, lunch or dinner? Lunch. Yeah, same. Yeah. Well, it's, you've got more possibilities. I'm generally hungrier and it can go on. It can go on. Yeah, long. Harder when you get older. Yeah, yeah, long lunch. That's a long lunch. Everything's better. Yeah. What is it, the first bottle of wine's expensive? I said there's a quote, I think, the first bottle of wine's expensive, but not as much as the second, something like that. But the, that's, so, and then what do you think, you said he's nervous, what other sides to him do you think people didn't really see versus, you know, what was in the book, what was on Hearts Unknown, what was on the layover, like, what was the other side?

1:11:20I mean, I didn't know him really personally. You didn't know him personally, it was more Fergus. Yeah, but it was more, I mean, he was a clever, sensitive, beautiful man that we all loved and we would enjoy his company immensely. And, you know, he was just fantastic. He's just great company and we would talk about restaurants, you know, and food and, you know, and then, I mean, he then obviously skyrocketed out of this world. But we met on the day, he interviewed me here on the day that Brexit, we voted for Brexit, and I was, because I used to drive a black cab, and I'd gone to sleep early and I didn't know what had happened, and I wound down and asked the passing person, so what happened?

1:12:11And he said, we voted for Brexit. I could not believe it. And then I saw Anthony that day, and I told him I was going to this restaurant and I had to get a train at 12. I'd even got, not one, I'd even got a motorbike to pick me up. And they're like, oh, Antti won't get up at that time. I said, well, tell him. I can't believe I said that. I should have put all the stops out. Anyway, he was a darling as always. He's just sort of had it, didn't he? He's so gifted and gorgeous. He just had the ability to just. And a brilliant writer. Such a good writer. Effortless writer. I think he talks about a pie in Sydney, and he talks about it being this volcano, and it's like the gravies of the lava, and it's just the most, it's like literally three, four sentences, but it's just so articulate and beautiful, and you look at this pie he's eating in Sydney, you're like, fuck, now that's just so good.

1:13:09What would you, maybe this is a hard question, so we don't have to go here, you're in the driving seat, but what would you, if you were to see him today, or like if he was to come here today, like what would you maybe say to him or like what would you, yeah, what would you say to him, do you think? Let's have lunch. Yeah. Fancy some lunch. Yeah. What would you cook for him, do you think? About what I cook for him? I think maybe give him a pie. You know, something soothing and loving. He needs lots of love. He does, yeah. Yeah, he needed lots of love. the um so i listened to a thing about um i don't know whether it was i don't know that was bourdain or was action bronson but it was saying fergus um speaks chef and in terms of like in the kitchen he can speak chef and like people understand him not through like necessarily verbally what would you what do you think it means to speak chef i think it was action bronson who said this and I thought it was really interesting and then the more I've been thinking about it uh is is like there is in terms of humans communicating is it's not always verbal like you can there's a lot of non-verbal I think most of communication is non-verbal and I just thought that again I always like try to explore things I've never explored before I said that's really interesting what do you think it means to speak chef without literally speaking I just thing is strength of his idea and that you don't question it you just do you I think yeah there's no wishy-washy way he speaks about food or the restaurant it it is and you go with it and you don't you don't sort of question it maybe is what he's talking about but yes a strength and a great love of food I mean he gets the guy no he gets food and what is good and what is bad you know and um he's yeah he's the best person to go out to dinner with or lunch yeah yeah yeah long lunches yeah it's just you know what Fergus did as well he taught us um you know how you know how to drink you know I was a bit like oh but it's always about what drink do you have for a different time of the day so talk me about how what is the right way because i'm well i mean it depends on you know how much you've got in your wallet but if you're you know it could be a bicicletta in the morning or a perno in the morning then you might move on to wine or you know learning about light great wines that slip down at lunchtime and then afterwards we can't fear prune calvados that sort of thing.

1:15:55Black Velvet was a great, you know, if you go to Sweetings and Black Velvet, but I didn't know about those things. And that was quite a new introduction into the Negroni. Fergus, I mean, I didn't know about Negronis till I met Fergus. We would have a party at our Christmas party at our house every year. I would spend hours on the telephone calling people up, inviting them. And then hundreds of people coming to our flat and Covent Garden. I'd be on the door, Fergus would be making jugs of Negroni out the back and then there would be the Negroni roar. The Negroni roar. Amazing, yeah, yeah. Yes, everyone is shouting.

1:16:33Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'd get rid of the kids for the night. We'll not get rid of them. Yeah, see you later, mate. Negroni's a kind of town. And one year, a friend who was having a bit of a breakdown or something, he got stuck in the bathroom and then broke a hole in the bathroom. I think he'd had a Negroni and maybe he shouldn't have. And the kids came in the next day and they said, must have been a good party. Yes. That's amazing. But they were great parties and these jugs. And so Fergus is Puntimes, Campari and gin, equal parts. It's quite a strong one. But it's the ice. It's so important about the ice.

1:17:16Why is the ice so important? Because then you get a little bit dilution. I love it. I like it when it melts all the way down and you're just, it's all quite watery. The different stages of it, of a Negroni. Oh my God. I didn't even thought of that. I love all the different stages. I, sometimes you can, it can last quite a long time. If you've got that. It's like you want, you want it when you've had a stressful day, like you want it, you want that strong hit to sort of give you, it's almost like a sloppy kiss to say, look, it's going to chill the fuck out. But then as you get onto your second one, you want it to be a bit diluted because you're feeling, I'm feeling a bit wavy now.

1:17:48Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, well, yeah, but I hadn't even thought of that. The ice kind of, the ice is in... That's what's great about those blocks as well. The big ones, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have them, but it's that sort of, as it melts and all sorts of things happen, the magic of a Negroni. Yeah, there really is a magic to it. Yeah, I hadn't even... Yeah, I was smashing them in Lisbon, but you know you've done like eight days on the beer, I've been drinking for like eight days straight, so my tolerance was to the roof, but I was just like, it was sort of going back like cowpole. mean but then i was making up the next day going a watery gin and tonic is not a great thing no it's the opposite a watery non-groni if you started with it strong is actually quite an interesting flavorsome thing it kind of flows in with you it moves with you it's like dancing like it's like dancing with with your with your mood you in terms of like what um you said fergus and you you both kind of uh go out to restaurants all the time like what is your that isn't your own like what are some of the restaurants that you just love just absolutely yeah love like what what is about them that's so lovable do you mean well ikeda is japanese which we absolutely love and we've been going all our lives with our kids um kiln we love absolutely love um what do you love about those like what is it because there's again there's a gazillion well a cader a cader is family-run restaurant it's always the same the chefs have been there for the last few years the guy who makes the sushi he has been there since in 30 years yeah that's crazy and he's there every time we go in we will say hello back yeah yeah yeah we're going for my daughter's birthday this week.

1:19:40There's a great beauty to it. It's really clean. It's amazing fish. The temperature of the rice, the temperature of the fish, the way they meet. There's gentleness. It's a really great restaurant. I love the way it looks as well. It's quite sort of you're in a sort of, it's not groovy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's lovely. It's really beautiful. The bar, the chefs are there. Their pots are all beautifully clean. I wish I cooked like them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're amazing and great sake. And Ken is lovely. His dad had been the sushi chef but he made sushi. He had died many years ago and then his mother ran it and now he runs it.

1:20:26It's been there a long time. It's got that history. Where else is it? In Brook Street along from Claridge's. So you can pop into Claridge's for a glass. Or an agronie. And then you can go into Akeda for really, you know, it's unexpected as well. It's interesting to have places like that still in London. I love the feeling of history in it as well. Where else do we go? Royal China. I've always gone to Royal China. I love the Royal China. I love its chaos and I love Chinese food, Cantonese food. we have got a new Sichuan restaurant in Camberwell. It's called, what is it called? South Lambeth Sichuan.

1:21:13That's what it says in the tin. Yeah, I love those places, yeah. And it's really good. Don't have the dumplings. They're not so great. But all the brothy things, and it's spicy, but I'm not that great at really strong spice. It's really good. I think it feels real. It feels quite traditional. I love that word, feels real. My mate, like, out in Bankstead, which is towards Epsom, he went to a curry house the other day. So it was like, it's one of the best curries he's had in a long time. You know, that's proper old toys. So I was like, what's it called? He goes, curry centre. And I just love that.

1:21:45You know, it's just like, this is the curry centre. You come here. We always have white bait when we, not white bait, jellyfish when we go to a Chinese restaurant. Just to show them that, you know, we're real. We know what we're doing. Really? I've never had jellyfish. It's good. jellyfish is great really it's yummy good texture really generally cold with a chili cucumber sauce yeah yeah yeah maybe i'm trying to put a sesame in it you can buy jellyfish in the asian supermarkets yeah yeah yeah that's where it's good really that's it's just like we know what we're doing they always look at you like no we know what are the um so so we've talked about gentle hospitality and i'd love to kind of go through i was listening to um uh an interview with robert downey jr you know the actor who's in um he's also later one of the questions was like what are the different types of director you work with yeah he went through a few and he thought i thought that was a really interesting uh kind of lens and i want to kind of talk to you about this margot in terms of i think we talked about like gentle gentle hospitality is one one way of one strain of hospitality.

1:22:57Yeah. What are the sort of the other types you think that are kind of yeah. It's hard because you know I mean there's obviously fine dining isn't it and they are I mean it's just incredible what they do. I mean there's all sorts of different ways of you know running businesses I mean I suppose rollouts is a different type for hospitality isn't it chains what are your thoughts on that chains i mean you know i would you know i mean there's there's a place for it it's called money you know yeah yeah it's obvious um but you know it's hard for them to maintain the magic the magic scale kills magic yeah someone said that to me and i and i and what is a chain it's how many links you've got yeah yeah Is it linking up?

1:23:54Also, is it a chain to the magic? Is it something that literally chains to your ankle? That's a bit airy-fairy, sorry. Is it something that changes you from, you may get size, but you may change your magic and shackles your magic, potentially? There's a lot in London. Yeah. And most are not great. I mean, but some are good. But it's tricky as well in terms of... I mean, look at Gales. That's pretty amazing. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, they've got 100. Yeah. I mean, they've opened Southland, but I was like, I'm going to Gales. But I go in there. The staff are incredible. Amazing. They've got it all trimmed down.

1:24:31They know exactly what they're doing. It's not too airy-fairy-like. It doesn't have that feeling like we're just pleasing the masses. It's distinctive. Great coffee. I do a bit of consultancy work for a chocolate brand called... I don't even have ever heard of Island's Chocolate. So we are their hot chocolate in Gales. I'll send you some. It's absolutely delicious. But their head of, what I love about Gales is each one is so unique. So the one in Peckham is like all pink, like neon fucking lights. It's super quirky. But then the one in, I don't know, like there's one in Isha, which is just completely, the complete anethesis to this, but they're still the same business.

1:25:15They all feel very different. Caravan has that. Oh, yeah. Caravan has that feeling of, you know, you're going into an individual restaurant. But say St John rolled out, you wouldn't be able to do that. There would be a distinctive feeling, wouldn't it? They couldn't change it to pink to there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because how many sites is St John right now? They've got three. Three. Marlebone, Farringdon, Spitalfields. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the bakery. And they have the bakery. Ah, okay, yeah. And the wine. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one thing I want to ask you about is kind of a palate. This is a bit of a random one.

1:25:59Okay. Sorry, Margot. I just have a lot of, I'm so curious. My palate. No, no, no, not your palate specifically, but like a lot of people say they've got a rip, someone's got a very good palate or like has the ability to like... Taste all sorts of different things. Yeah, but like put a vegetable in their mouth and like understand how they're going to make something out of it. Like how much of that can be learned versus like intuition? So like say X number of vegetables come in today, right? And we're trying to cook something. Like what is the, I'm trying to understand the process of how you like use your palate.

1:26:40Maybe start with this. I'm much more instinctive. I'm more instinctive in the way it looks. I can tell if something's going to be tasty sometimes by the way it looks. Interesting. But, you know, especially with vegetables. Vegetables are quite easy. You want freshness. You want, I mean, my palate is average, really is, because I've smoked too much, you know. That's what I'm saying, is it? But I do know what is good and what is not good. But also, like, we went to Paradise yesterday, they had all sorts of different flavour things going on and we could sense them and love them. And the room was quite dark and the noise was really noisy.

1:27:24But it was interesting. I felt like you were in a bit of a hole with your food. You know, you sort of really, the food was really exciting and amazing. But it's, you want to know, so you have a courgette and you're looking at the... I find creative process as a, whether it's Bourdain writing a piece whether I always think why did maybe Bourdain in terms of film and TV is a good example it's like sometimes I think it's the one when in the episode in Lisbon when they're stalking the pig and he has that really melodic kind of intense almost like opera music because oh that's I'm like why has he picked that do you know what I mean I'm trying to suppose is when you get when you create a plate of food is that how does your brain work in terms of okay this is why this is a Rochelle dish sometimes it's because of what's there yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm not i mean you're planning the menu and you're thinking what you want in it but we you know we're often um just using up things that we've got so we've got all these vegetables come and we're deciding what will go well with this we're we're more instinctive intuitive but then you will have something fermented or there'll be some chili or different vinegars that we're using obviously seasoning with our food because it's so simple it's crucial so you're always trying to get everyone you know seasoning just how we use salt i mean that's a major thing what did most people get kind of wrong with with with the seasoning side of things not enough not enough not enough yeah interesting not too much actually because chefs used to traditionally always be putting too much in.

1:29:08You know, there was a real, because they say they get used to the salt, so they add more and more. But I'd say with us, it can be too little. Interesting. But we always have salt and pepper on the table as well. So that's... Gentle empathy. Yeah, because, I mean, it's great not to have salt and pepper, but I was in a restaurant a while ago, and there was no salt and pepper on the table, and it really, really needed it. and you're like, I'm sorry, guys, you haven't quite got this right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it would have problem solved if we'd just gone like that. Yeah. But, you know, our service is very hard and, you know, there's two people doing it.

1:29:50Sometimes, you know, people forget. Yeah, yeah. But the salt and pepper's on the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, we're looking at more, you know, we're pickling more, we're fermenting more, we're doing more of that sort of thing. So, you know, we're trying to get different depths of flavours and things in there. Are you looking to turbocharge your brand? Take it to another level. Save money, save energy, save stress, save time. Well, I've got the perfect thing for you. I am delighted to announce that HC Brands, formerly HC Consulting, my boy Harry Clark has just launched a commercial growth accelerator programme designed specifically for challenger food and drink brands.

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1:31:30But then it creates something totally unique. But we wouldn't want music anyway. Yeah. It just would be wrong. Yeah. I think we have music in the pub, so I've got a pub with Three Horseshoes in Somerset now and it's really exciting, but it can be quite quiet and people are whispering. What kind of music do you play? Like what would you... David Bowie. Yes. I love that. You know, Joan Armatrading. She's lovely in the background. Yeah, yeah. We're jazz, we're playing, you know, classics. You know, I feel older music works better, but, you know, I'm not there all the time. But, yeah, it's just, it fills a gap.

1:32:16Fergus is still against it, but I said it makes people stay a bit longer. Especially if you're having a boozy lunch. or they've come in for a pint and there's five other people there and it's quite quiet sometimes the quietness can feel a bit oppressive I find it so fascinating where it's quiet at St John is nothing, it's not quiet it's just not quiet it's not that sort of oppressive quietness and sometimes that can be a bit like and everyone's whispering there's a raucous roar when you walk into St John I think even when there's no one there yeah yeah yeah whereas here it's feel like feels like serenity like in a really yeah it's just like much more serene it's just like a wall yeah yeah super serene but then when you've got your your pub now what so how's that like how have you found that running this and the pub down in uh in in Somerset like how I'm not running it they're running it they're all amazing the guys there are brilliant really good team nice Smith is the head chef.

1:33:18He's brilliant. He worked at St. John at the hotel and Moro and Koya. He actually was at Koya when Hector started there. Hector was making dashi in the basement at Koya. It was his first cooking job. I don't think he was very happy. He said, one day Hector, this will be your greatest moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. Anyway, Nye is a very beautiful chef. He's just incredible and he's he just he suits it all we're getting um you know we're a five minute walk from Westcombe no actually 15 minute walk from Westcombe Dairy you know the whole area Somerset they're all producing great product I mean meat veg cheese the whole place is you just wouldn't be able to know all the suppliers down there it really is incredible and um Josh is the general manager he's great it's great it's just it's quiet sometimes in the beginning of the week you know you don't you drive him down the lanes you don't pass anyone at the weekends it's packed yeah yeah I can imagine yeah but it's great we're really loving it changing menu lot of classic you know British cooking lot of influence of Fergus and me it's great we're really enjoying it there's a few more things I want to explore you Mo I'm absolutely loving this it's just so I just love being able to see the kind of all the texture behind the scenes of, you know, I had a meal here, but it's understanding everything.

1:34:51Yeah. Yeah. The, yeah, what I want to talk about is you talked about at the beginning there's some dark days and I think a lot of people who listen to these podcasts message me saying, look, I heard from X that they went through some hard times and it made, it just made everything so much, made that day lighter. Right. and I think as you said you've had this long beautiful career both you and you and Ferguson and now Hector which is amazing but I'd love to know what have been some of the heart really hard dark days when chefs hand their notice let's talk about that when James Ferguson handed his notice and I literally had a breakdown no I used to have it was so upsetting you so much of team together and then somebody hands their notes in um and you just think how am I going to get out of this what's going to happen how am I going to because because it's not rigid like here's a recipe cook it it's hard to teach people what you're doing how to make it work and also you've I've cooked we've had so many great chefs here I mean really amazing people Anna Tobias um And she just was so fantastic.

1:36:11I loved her food. And then you're going to miss their food as well. And they make you look so good. And you think, how am I going to get back to this? But you do. And I'm better about it now, actually. I think at my old age I'm getting better about it. How do you get it back? Time, time, you know, talking, sitting down. I mean, sometimes it's better to hire within. So they've already got, we've had quite a few chefs who've come from St John, which is helpful. I mean, also, we don't generally get chefs that don't like the food or what we're trying to do. Yeah, otherwise fuck off me. Imagine that, yeah, yeah.

1:37:00I mean, it would be crazy if you wanted to come in. But there has to be a sense of what they want to bring and what we do because people will leave. And so we need to have continuum and we need to be going. Dark times is when you're quiet. You're like, oh, what are we going to do? So I viewed the, I don't think you've ever had a Black Bear burger, really good burgers. No, I love it. Oh, my God. This will change your life, Margot. Like, I think that they did, I remember getting it in Brixton. they've so they've got one they started in broadway market yeah they've now got one in exmouth market right by caravan one in brixton oh i'll go to the one in brixton uh i could do with the burger now i'm gonna smash some food after this honestly i'm gonna be turning to a i might see this table downstairs i'm gonna smash smash out a load of munch but the um but he was basically saying she was saying to me he goes once he goes you know that you know the graft of the street food is just a schlog um he goes we'd set everything up it was pissing down with rain and we're just thinking why why are we why are we doing this we can't get punters through the door there will be people listening to that who are going through going through that moment right now they've got a restaurant or they've got a brand or they've got and no one's coming no one's coming i don't mean that interrogatory i hate walking past restaurants when there's not many people i feel for them my whole body yes empathy yes i feel for you But what would you say to people who were going through that?

1:38:36And then first question. And second question, was there ever a moment in time where, like this was quiet anyway, how did you drum up people to ring the buzzer? Yeah, no, I mean, Rush Isle has definitely been quiet and we've built it up over the years. In the winter, it could be really quiet because we didn't have the tent or that sort of thing. But we were always trying to drum up. I mean, that's back to multitasking, trying to do different things. We would also bring a lot of friends, you know. Friends are supportive and then they go and talk about it. So we've been, we've probably given away, we've given away a lot.

1:39:17I mean, in the early days of St. John, our friends were incredibly supportive and we have friends in the art world that have always supported us and had big parties. So buyouts are great. you know that they can really help with your takes in a month um so you may need a bit of both but you need to not have too many of them because then you're not open enough also i never mind people calling you know we're in a service industry so i don't mind friends calling saying can you get me i think all that sort of thing you're always trying to help um the staff you just want bums on seats sometimes you know if you're quiet you want bums on seats because you want trying to create an atmosphere aren't you and that atmosphere can bring people like when we're struggling to get chefs as we are at the moment and especially in Somerset I just feel you should we need to be doing anything somehow it's a bit like noise and maybe there'll be some little filter it's a bit like you're being in the bathroom the other day and then it was on but you're trying somehow to get some word out and we're here and what we're doing.

1:40:27I always love, you know, giving lots of love to your food, to your... Everything helps people come. Oh, that's such a... That's such a beautiful... Like, what you've said there is actually so profound in terms of... Yeah, when you give a lot of love... Maybe you'll get it back. Well, you're trying to, you know. Yeah, no, no, but I think people can make it to, like, you know, let's go and stand... I'm not saying you have to do this here, but say it is a burger restaurant or a street food restaurant it's like let's go and give out some flyers to the nearest office and it's like you know it's like quite tactical shit which is fine which probably does work but like actually I'm not saying you'd never have to do this for here I'm just more kind of being empathetic towards people listening yeah it's actually it's like if you put more love into it it can go back don't paint it black yeah unless that's the Rolling Stones song which is an absolute banging oh right I really don't like black restaurants.

1:41:23A whole of Old Compton Street is just all these black restaurants. Why do you think? It's like a dark hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't we just come up? It's like you're in a nightclub. I don't know. They're all sort of badly. I mean, Old Compton Street is particularly dire at the moment. And it's just, I just, it's sort of weird restaurants with black tablecloths. You know, a back tablecloth is a no-no for me. What's your... Do you like Indian food? What's some of the best Indian restaurants you've been to in London? Gunpowder. Is that Indian? Gunpowder. Sri Lankan. Yeah, well, that's because Paradise is Sri Lankan, isn't it?

1:42:08Yeah. I love Indian food. I just can't think of one right now. Oh, God, yeah. But, yeah, we have, I love, I mean, I don't, it's no food I don't like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One thing I want to ask you, and I try and push myself to ask some hard questions, but, like, you're completely in the driving seat, so tell me to fuck off, I happily will. But I'd love to know, so Fergus got diagnosed with Parkinson's in, I think it was, like, the late 90s. Like, how's that affected your relationship and affected you? So again, I think people would, everyone's got hard things they have to go through. And I think, yeah, you don't have to talk about it.

1:42:48It's up to you. Well, Parkinson's is, you know, it's bad luck. You know, we've been through a lot. He had an amazing operation where he has wires in his brain. It's called DBS, deep brain stimulation, which changed our life actually because he was moving nonstop and he's really thin. But anyway, he got these wires and it really calmed him down. So that changed that. Now, as he's got older, his speech is really bad. He can't speak. But, you know, he's very much still there. I miss him. I miss, you know, because Fergus would wake up in the morning and say, what are we doing for lunch? And he doesn't quite think like that anymore.

1:43:28So it's been, you know, it's a struggle. It's definitely a struggle. And he's not getting better. but you know love is better love love is an incredible thing because we love each other and so we're very you know we're there you know we're we're we're with each other um I just wish we could do more together because um but we have to go calmly but that's probably quite a good thing for me as well yeah otherwise I sometimes think if he was really well my god Marco what would you be like when you when you first met met back in the 90s was he sort of like bang out of bed like trying to do a gazillion things at once and you were trying to you were kind of what was no he just you know he's always got an opinion and he's he's thinking first thing was what's for lunch every day he's just thinking what's for lunch um whether we're cooking it or you know we're going out for lunch um so he's he's he's not there's he's a bit weaker these days he's definitely weaker he's had parkinson's for a long time and it's a debilitating boring disease but you don't die from that well not at the moment so you know we're blessed we're lucky as well and not i'm not complaining but it is boring well yeah boring for him you seem so but i love your positivity because i think everyone uh everyone listening to this will be going through some thing and it can be you can either uh complain about not saying it is he's never complained once yeah exactly he doesn't complain interesting I can't I can have a win yeah I can definitely have a good old win I'm not going to do it right here yeah um yeah yeah he um never complains he's he's he's strong he's strong as an ox that guy yeah yeah and he I don't think he knows how to complain but I once you know I was complaining he said well think he did once say to me well think how it feels for me darling he is it's hard and you know because we all want to be strong when we're old and he is definitely weaker but you know he still he loves this restaurant he doesn't work there um at all really um but he talks to his chefs and he has relationships with them and he um you know he and he loves it you know it's his baby it's you know it's his life's work St John and you know So we were, I mean, not that I did anything to do with it, but I was very much supportive with our friendships.

1:45:57You know, all the people we met throughout the art world, all the things that happened with St. John, it wasn't just a restaurant. It's, you know, it's our life. It's our, you know, well, our children grew up in there, running around every weekend as we're all trying, having big messy lunches. My proudest day of my children, with my children, when they're all sitting in front of me, sucking the head of a longer steam. I'm like, yes, darling. I mean, I should, but now they like eating too much, probably. Oh, no, but it's... Who was it? I interviewed a guy called Rory Sutherland. His name's Rory Sutherland.

1:46:34He's like a big advertising executive guy, Ogilvy, but we get on because we both just love talking about restaurants and food, but he's a really interesting guy. But he was saying that he once did best thing he's ever eaten of all time was St. John did he had a Guinness and a like a no no no like a sorry my mind's going we'll wrap up in a sec the the like what they called when the the names escaped me but it's like a scratching a goose scratching is what he says ooh that's good yeah so that was it a goose scratching and he said that that that was that um but yeah i think the final thing we'll touch upon then let's wrap this up is it's just this art thing because again there's synonymous i think was at your time at um in all your restaurants like there's been like a link to art like what are some of the most interesting artists you've ever kind of met and what have they they and tour you?

1:47:39Oh, well, great artists. Sarah Lucas, Gary Hume, Matthew Barney, Kai Altoff. I mean, lots of great artists, great friends, built great friendships. They love going out. They love eating. Generous of spirit. And also, I think the art world let us be ourselves and understood it. They always understood St John, where sometimes, like you said, what was, you know, St John was a bit tricky, or that's hard to the, you know, that writing, the simplicity of it, whereas the art world just got it. They had no problem. Yeah, and we all sort of grew up together with that group back then in the 90s. And we had some wild times.

1:48:39A lot of feasting and eating, because also the art world is always, they're always celebrating another exhibition. So Sadie Cole's gallery would have a lot of events with us, with catering as well as in St John and at Rochelle, because they're always celebrating another artist's show. So there's a lot going on. I think what you said there about, They just got it and accepted it straight away? Because I think you were doing something so unique from such a new angle, both of you guys. And they weren't scared of it. They weren't scared. Because they're all so confident. Why do you think artists are so confident?

1:49:15Because they've had to spend all this time thinking about the reason why, or what the idea is. They make some squiggle, and they have to have a sense of what that is. They're probably like their best salesman in the world. And generally, they're all pretty clever, the successful ones. They're pretty smart people. Well, they are really smart. They're brilliant. I mean, I love artists. They're just such great. They're about the world and all the people that flow with it as well. I mean, artists, they're ones that do it. Then the people who build the galleries, people who run, you know, the Tate, all these places, they're all looking at our culture and who we are and what we're doing.

1:49:52and places like St John and Rochelle have been, you know, cultural institutions within Britain and, you know, that's what they're always looking at, aren't they? They are looking at what is culture for us here now and they're generous-spirited, fun-loving people. Let's wrap that up there because I think it ties in perfectly but I've absolutely loved it. Thank you so much for being so generous. You're very sweet. I think it's just this, yeah, I've just added a lot more texture to two restaurants I've revered for so long. And I think many people have revered. It's just good to understand the depth behind it.

1:50:39I hope it's okay. Oh, it's brilliant. Let's wrap that up.

1:50:45Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. if you liked that episode, only if you liked it please do give it 5 stars subscribe, tell all your friends families, foes, next door but one cat, dog, whatever, please tell everyone about this podcast, it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands Thank you so much.