Michelin Stars Make You Miserable. Do This For a Happy Life & Business - Michel Roux Jr. (round 2)

25:57So sleeping better, less coffees and less drink, less alcohol. So all in all, just a much, I think, better person and a less angry person as well. And a person that could then take decisions, not afraid to take decisions in a certain way and be able to think through problems much, much clearer. Yeah, that for me was the turning point.

26:30Michel Roux Jr.:You've said anger a couple of times, Michelle. Is there a decision you regret that came from anger?

26:39No, I wouldn't say that because if I were to change things, would I change probably? I don't know. It's very difficult to pinpoint one particular decision that I made over anger. Yeah. But I was a grumpy chef. I was an angry chef. I was just not a particularly nice person during those five, six years that I first took over from my father. It was a massive responsibility. Yes. Huge responsibility. I mean, Gavroche was already an iconic place. But it was big boots to fill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Albert Rue's boots were pretty big.

27:24Michel Roux Jr.:So when you stood up the mental health, how would that manifest? Was that like self-doubt that it's too big to handle? You name it. Like anxiety? Or was it sort of a buffet of all those? Like how did that manifest? All of the above and more. Oh, really? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you say I'm more. I mean, it may not look like it, but because I think I come across as a fairly self-confident person, but that comes with age and that comes with experience. Yep. um but uh but no back in yeah of course there's always i was always self-doubting always questioning myself is that the right decision is that the should i be doing this uh and and yeah yeah fearful of failure as well i mean that's that's a massive one isn't it yeah there was all of that it's um so i was just do you know well godaro did 11 madison park and yeah so i was in nashville two months ago but we we did a podcast with him it was great he wrote that book unreasonable hospitality yes which is all sort of detailed how they became the best restaurant in the world and um just really really interesting guy and he's got like some really interesting principles um but one of his things is is pursue contradictory goals and by that he said so there's excellence right and then the other side of that is is hospitality and generosity and so like in a in a in a in a in a setting you know excellence is that constant criticism that's not good enough um that can be better uh you know work harder you need that but the other but if you don't have the other side of it either contradictory goal which is hospitality or generosity is like you're doing a great job you can be better um sorry you're you know you're doing better the whole family meal the kindness the generosity when you pursue that tension he says that tensions are really really that's how they sort of became the best in the world when you took over like how if we're looking through the lens of excellence versus hospitality within the company culture how did that start and change over the years when you were managing Le Gavroche it's different era yeah that's what yeah completely different era I mean, you're talking, you know, I mean, the Gavroche opened in 67 and I was a kid then, but I witnessed it all and saw it all, you know, through the 70s, 80s and 90s and to where we are now.

30:03And I think hospitality now is in a much, much better place than it was then.

30:08Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah. Can we do more? Of course we can do more. And I do believe that hospitality is doing more. It's not perfect for a long stretch. But, yeah, I mean, I remember the 70s and 80s, and it was not nice. It wasn't. And it needed to change. But why, this is not a loaded question, but if it wasn't, how is that not nice period actually good for excellence, though? Do you know what I mean? Because it did... Well, because, yeah, because you're, I suppose, you're pushing yourself as an individual, as an owner of a restaurant or the head chef. You're pushing yourself, pushing yourself, but you want the rest of them, rest of the team to push as well at the same speed.

30:58So you demand excellence. You demand that every little whatever detail is perfection. and you couple that with extremely long hours and it just becomes, it's just a horrible place to be in. It just doesn't, I don't think it's conducive to excellence. Not anymore, that's for sure anyway. And that can only last a certain amount of time and you get burnout. Burnout as an owner and as a head chef, but also your team gets burnt out.

31:38Michel Roux Jr.:So it's counterproductive. And then how did it, so that was that era. And what are some of the changes you put in place? I mean, my burnout, for example, was probably manifesting itself in migraines and me being, you know, not a particularly happy person. And so that was how it was manifesting itself. And the way I got out of that was through physical exercise. So when you'd walk in with those migraines, like, so you walk through the doors of the Gavroche, go down into the kitchen, whatever, What are the thoughts going through your head if you could kind of paint that picture? Anger. Just anger, like this is not good enough.

32:14Anger at myself and anger at just the place where I was at. I said place where I was at, not physical place where I was at, but sort of the sort of mental place that I was. Yeah. Why was my head throbbing and banging? uh and and that's just yeah such horrible horrible feelings yeah i think it was reassuring

32:39Michel Roux Jr.:people listen to this who like you know hitting that what as i want to detail is the wall it's just to get where you've got to is there is almost sometimes a cost to that success and it's i think having that release valve of that pressure oven oh sorry pressure cooker it's just like you need to find that and you can either do it by smashing beers and drugs and you know there's how you skin the cat is different but like i think yes well i certainly wouldn't hit the alcohol or drugs that's for sure but yeah getting a pair of trainers and going out and running is a far better way of doing it what was the what was your favorite marathon you did london really without any question london done 13 london marathons and for me it's it's the best big city marathon out there yeah um i mean i've i've done new york paris um monaco trying to think of the other big cities i've done um tromso although that's not a big city where's that the arctic circle what was that saying norway it's a midnight sun uh run so you you run up midnight basically and it's broad daylight oh wow yeah yeah yeah yeah it's good fun um so yeah no for me it's it's london it's just a great city i love london and and and the the crowds are unbelievable i wrote beginning to the end yeah i think i wrote a thing about oh i wrote a post about it being like the london marathon is the reason i'll never move to dubai because obviously everyone's now saying i'll move to dubai it's like tax-free and i was like i could be surrounded by a load of you know blokes and man bags who are selling courses online but when you're running through there As you go over Tower Bridge, I'm like...

34:21Michel Roux Jr.:It lifts you. I get goosebumps when I talk about it. It was like, this is just, this is Nirvana. And then as you pop the corner, it's like, Canary Wharf, you're going to hell. The thing when you go around the corner, you're not even halfway there. And you see people that are running back already, aren't you? Yeah. Shit, I've got to go all the way to Canary Wharf and come back this way. Yeah, I thought, so some bloke came past me and goes, guys, it's only a park run to go. and I go mate that's so far so I was like to myself I was like right put your watch on and just like dig in and I was hoping to see my family on as I was going down the embankment and I didn't see them and I felt really bad because there was these two um slightly older ladies who were next to me and I the 5k went up on my watch and I was going mate I'm nowhere near the finish line now and someone from the crowd shouts um only a mile to go and i don't know you know how much pain i went oh i went oh fuck's sake and these two women go are you all right and i was like i'm fine oh it's so so interesting the um what i wanted to ask you about is and and again this is a will thing is he talks about uh customer recovery as in when something's going pete tong in a restaurant He goes, that's actually, and he had some really interesting data on it about how, and this is not just in hospitality, right?

35:45Michel Roux Jr.:This is in any business. It's how you recover it. How you recover it. And he said, that is the best word of mouth tool out of any, the studies escape me. How did you, what's the art of that? What have you learned about that as a restaurateur? How do you recover things when they're going, yeah, bad? Not as they should. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think honesty is the best policy. So put your hand up and say, sorry, look, I've messed up here. I've done this or that or this isn't working or whatever.

36:22And if you have that opportunity to put your hand up and say sorry at the time, it's easier to be able to rectify the problem. it becomes more of a problem when the guest doesn't say anything or just yeah midnight on the keyboard and after a few drinks starts starts you know using social media as a as a way to vent their anger so if if a guest is upset and says so at the time it's fantastic it because that gives you an opportunity to rectify it and to make good and you do your best to make good so you know champagne goes a long way champagne is a lovely gift uh and and champagne normally can make people happy but um but you know so gestures so it's but first of all first and foremost if if you have made a mistake as a restaurateur is to put your hand up and immediately go there to the guests and say look we we've fucked up basically yeah you know really sorry how can we rectify this or i wouldn't even say how here's a little something this is on the house we're going to rectify this we're going to do that for you and you know that's that's the way to do it because you like you quite rightly said it's word of mouth and it's a huge huge tool you've got to be you've got to do your best that the people once they've left that they've got a spring in their step and they go wow they screwed up on my steak but they made up for it in you know immeasurable ways

38:06Michel Roux Jr.:lots of champers whatever it is I ordered a bavette steak it was overcooked but they came with a fillet instead of a bavette, which costs 90 quid instead of nine quid or whatever. And an extra bottle of wine. Wow. I think a lot of the lessons, a lot of people that listen to this don't even work in anywhere near restaurants, but some of the lessons are really applicable. And this is Will's stuff, as he says. But you see, for me, it is so important that if you have got a gripe as a customer, and it can be in anything, whether you have a hospitality or you've taken your car for a service or whatever, you're not happy with that or whatever.

38:50You've got to voice your miscontent or what you've seen as a problem there and then.

39:00Michel Roux Jr.:As a customer. As a customer. Yeah. Rather than just letting it brew and fester and you get more and more angry and pissed off with it and you don't give that person a chance to redeem themselves or to tackle the problem. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a takes two to tango, doesn't it? Because the worst thing, and Rhys and I were discussing this, you know, before you arrived, Michelle, is those Google reviews, right? And Rhys doesn't look at them because it's like, you don't know whether that person's, you know, had a barmy with their partner, they've been fired from a job, they're in a bad mood, they're like, you know.

39:38Michel Roux Jr.:They've had too much to drink. had too much to drink. And it's just like, you know, as the keyboard warriors, you know, smashing away their anger.

39:48When TripAdvisor started many moons ago, I used to read them. Was that in your angry period? No, it was a bit later. TripAdvisor would have been a little bit later. But I used to read them. Yeah. And for the most part, thankfully, they were good. And then occasionally you'd get a really bad one and you'd think, what the? What the hell? What? Why? When? And then you'd look at the time and it was like one o 'clock in the morning. You'd think, oh, okay, well, fair enough. So you've had too much to drink and you've had a row or whatever and you're taking it out on me like that. And very often they're personal and they've got nothing to do with it and they're always exaggerated.

40:26So I switched off. I said, I'm not answering them and I am not going to even read them because for me, anybody who has a gripe, has a genuine complaint, if they don't say so at the time, then I'm sorry, but at one o 'clock in the morning on a keyboard, you've lost my respect.

40:47Michel Roux Jr.:Yes. Yeah, I mean, we don't look at any of the YouTube videos. Like I get people who say, like I've got severe ADHD, it hasn't taken its pills. Like I don't need that in my life. Just like, let's not look at that stuff and I'll just have a chat. Yeah, what's been some maybe ostensibly negative feedback that was actually really constructive and improved the operation? Yeah, so what I say to young chefs and people starting out in hospitality is be prepared, get ready for the nasty ones because no one is 100 % perfect and you're always going to get some genuine heartfelt criticism. so don't be angry when you read it I know it's difficult it's bloody difficult especially when you're young you're just starting out read it don't answer it put it away try and sleep on it try sometimes you can't because they are so personal and vindictive and horrible and you know deep down that it's not right but anyway don't answer it immediately read it put it down give it 24 hours read it again and then put yourself in the boots of this person that has written it and you'll be able to filter through and somewhere in that complaint there might be something just one thing that you can read and you go okay they've got a point we can do better here or an example or i can't think of yeah but but there's there's always something there's I found in the past that even the great big monologues of listing 10 things that went wrong in my evening, there's probably only one that really triggered that complaint.

42:40And you've got to find it in there.

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43:50Michel Roux Jr.:So all you've got to do is click and you've made the booking. It's so simple. click the link in the show notes to book a demo you're gonna love it i was talking to tom brown um and he uh william sitwell wrote like a negative review when they when he launched the capital but just about a year ago and um he was saying you know at first i think he did give it that's what he was like what like i think we're doing everything great here but he said actually we kind of did what exactly you've just said michelle as he scoured through it i think he changed one of the dishes based on a bit of feedback and it was actually that improved the dish massively and we were saying you've got you've got to hear all feedback but you only listen then it's selective hearing then it's selective listening actually I should say because otherwise you'll just be dwindling around what did you did you think about competition were you competitive with other restaurants in that in that like kind of mode did you focus on doing your own thing again because i like um i spoke to karen who runs hoppers and he was like he'll go to a launch of another of a friend's restaurant or whatever and he'll be like uh okay i should be doing that and then he like how did you what's the art of doing that because how did you think about i don't think we ever really followed trends at leu gavroche interesting because we were outside of that we like i think we were we were unique in many ways um and we had our own style um yeah it's i mean nowadays a lot of chefs young chefs just scroll through tiktok and instagram and take inspiration from that um but they don't don't do the research as in getting a proper book or looking up a certain subject and going deep down into it.

45:42So, yeah, copycat of something visual is never going to be the same as actually trialling it and trying recipes and then sort of nailing, finally nailing that dish and truly calling it your own.

46:01Michel Roux Jr.:yeah i like developing um uh i don't you might you may have met him but you met the paul smith designer uh you know paul smith clothes he's got a really good little thing on his website kind of like a creative philosophy and it's kind of to your point of it really rings true now in the world of doom scrolling even i do love to doom scroll but it's it's it's kind of like have a point of view read far and wide yeah and then kind of absorb everything but then it's having the point of view and the taste that's the hard bit how did you maybe we can use a dish or anything to kind of bring this to life but how would you create a dish develop your point of view and be like that's mine like yeah how would you do that yeah um i don't i mean say one one of the first dishes that i put on the menu at le gavroche was um based on classics uh so a little ragu of langoustine um a classic french beurre blanc but flavored with ginger um so it's just using classic french technique uh but with a little a little bit of my own personality because i love ginger and and i traveled and worked in hong kong for a while so you know it was a flavor that i was that i really enjoyed and thought it would marry itself really well which it does it It was a dish that stayed on the menu for a long time.

47:28When the old man saw it on the menu, he went, well, what the hell are you doing? Ginger, we're a French restaurant. So I said, sit down, sit down, and eat it, try it. And he actually really enjoyed it. But so I suppose that's an example of... Bringing in your personal experiences in Hong Kong. Exactly.

47:47Michel Roux Jr.:Is that what the art is? It's bringing in your own real, true experiences into your... Okay, interesting. I think so. And, you know, like I said, that dish was a huge hit and a favourite on the menu. And even now, as I go on the road and do little pop-ups or gavroche on the road, as it were, it's a dish that I sometimes, you know, put on. What was Hong Kong like? Hong Kong was fabulous. I went to Hong Kong in the early 80s. It still is one of my favourite destinations to go to. I love Hong Kong. What's so good about it? It's got an energy. It's got a vibe. It's got a buzz. I mean, even after all the troubles, and I haven't been for a few years now, but for me it's just a fabulous place and foodie paradise as well.

48:38Michel Roux Jr.:What other places have you been to that are beautiful or resting? Singapore. Really? Yeah, Singapore is another foodie destination. It's immense. What sort of stuff would you have over there? Anything and everything. especially the street food it's it's it's so good yeah so good i mean the the grilled pork and uh that that lovely i can't remember what it's called now that red super super thin pork just and you know what i'm salivating just yeah yeah yeah i'm getting hungry as well the um so i know you're a big i'm trying to remember all the anyway yeah yeah sorry Yeah, so I know you're a big Quinns fan, rugby fan.

49:22Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah. And I was speaking to Tom Kerridge about because he opened a restaurant with Gary Neville in Manchester. And obviously his kids, his son plays rugby. I think he's a big Gloucester fan. Terrible. Yeah. But I'd love to, and we were just talking about the parallels of sport and running kitchens versus being a restauranteur. and he was saying that you know um when you're in in sport like even if you're on a football pitch it's very reactive you know your teammates got a yellow card what the fuck you're doing in a kitchen someone's spills what the fuck you do but he goes as you so it's very reactive there as you become a restaurateur it's very you have to have space between how did you talk to me about that how did that manifest at the gavroche that sort of reactionary versus non-reactionary stuff yeah so so i'm guessing tom is the same as me so you put people in place so for many years i was running the pass and i was running absolutely everything putting the orders through at the end of the day uh doing the rotors uh unblocking the drains you name it the lot um and uh but then you have to have a structure so your head chef then will do a little bit more work and well, the work will do more of those duties that you were doing.

50:50And then maybe you will get another structure and you will have an executive chef maybe create that position as well. And it depends how big the company is too. And can it take those extra salaries too? But then once you've got that structure in place, you as a boss, as a restaurateur, can take that step back a little bit and not be that reactionary person. and you can then be the, you know, the, as it were, the father figure, which I very much was at Le Gavroche. I was the father, like my father was at one stage. I was, you know, becoming the, or became the father figure. So I knew everybody really well.

51:33Yeah. They could all come to me with their personal problems, which they used to. and I was there every day and they could talk and we did we would talk but then obviously when service started service was on and I had my head chef who was running the past executive chef was running you know the restaurant and I would oversee it and be that almost in that buffer like you were saying or that being able to oversee and look and sometimes actually prevent flare-ups because I could see it from, you know, from above.

52:09Michel Roux Jr.:Wow. So, yes, almost I suppose you've moved from sort of 1 ,000 feet or 10 feet to 10 ,000 feet, hasn't that? You're looking from above. Yes. And you can spot the problems and you can see where pressure points are happening because when you're on the same level, as it were, you can't see everything. thing you can't see where the pressure point is where where things are going wrong or how whether there's a sort of a pinch point or whatever but when you are just above that then you can see hang on a minute this person on this section isn't he's it's not working let's move this person back to this section because they were doing really well there so let them shine there let them do that and then we'll you know it's the art of like move almost being the orchestra oh it was an orchestra what's the bloke a conductor that's it um yeah so it's it's so is that's that's how the game changes almost like moving the chess pieces of pressure i think so and also being a restaurateur you're not just kitchen you're also front of house service so you're seeing it as a whole because let's not forget front of house is key to how the kitchen runs as well yeah so if they're not they're not in unison not singing the same uh song as it were uh and not listening to the conductor then it can go pretty wrong the rory southern says the best the best mba uh is to be a kitchen porter and the reason he says that is because you see you see the whole you see the sum of its parts versus your individual thing obviously it's a bit cheeky but like how did you marry those two things like what was hard about marrying the the symphony or the orchestra

53:57um yeah it it's it's not easy i mean i'm gonna when i first took over back in yeah when i yeah i suppose in fact before that i remember growing up in le gavroche and and just hearing and seeing the furious rows between front of house and the kitchen. I mean, proper, proper, full on.

54:22Michel Roux Jr.:Off to the side of the door. Finger jab, no, no, on the pass, jabbing on the pass, this, that and the other, an absolute, you know. And it was very much us and them. And even after work, you would never, ever dream of going out with a maitre d' or going out with the front of house, never. Really? Oh, God, yeah. It was definitely us and them. There was extreme jealousy as well. And if anything went wrong, it was never the chef's fault. It was always the front of the house fault and vice versa. So it was terrible. So breaking that and making everyone realize that actually we're all working together and we're all, you know, for the good of our guests, we have to work together.

55:12And that wasn't easy. I mean, there's a saying in French, it's pas mélanger les torchons et les serviettes. Never mix the kitchen cloth and the napkin, which says exactly that. We don't mix front and back of house, we don't. Really? And so, and how did you get those,

55:38Michel Roux Jr.:it's almost like the Arsenal and Tottenham in the kitchen, right? How did you get them to become pals? Well, my dad tried by having football games. So we had football games. That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah. I remember going, we would go to Battersea. That was horrible. But it didn't last very long. We only did a few games because... Sly tackles galore. Yeah, you'd come back on a Monday morning and half of the front of the house would have black eyes and dead legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was... that didn't last very long but no dad instigated and so did uncle a lot of um uh trips for for staff to sort of um get togethers and and stuff like that so and i continued that a lot as well but so where would you sort of take where were some of the cool places you took people oh we we did we did 10 pin bowling we took over 10 pin bowlings we did um uh one year we i took everyone on the rib boats on the thames oh yeah so 40 of us on rib ribs i hide out all the went down did a and then we had a slap up boozy lunch and I'm trying to remember it was in Covent Garden I think it was a Mexican place I can't remember now that was going back a long long time but you know things like well every year I used to take the staff out up until closure twice a year a summer one and a Christmas one yeah and it was out for lunch so yeah Hawksmoor was a very very popular one so we'd all take 50, 60 of us down to Hawksmoor and we would have an absolute feast Derby's as well we did Derby's one day my god I went there the other week did some damage there I felt I felt for their staff because mind you the damage was in the bill too Jesus those big I don't know they had them on when you went the beef the little what they call it Big Mac nugget things that they have I could literally eat a whole platter Derby's yeah there's food is i love robin yeah that's one i think should have a mission so not that i'm any i've got no any no gravitas at all but i just think the food's extraordinary i think the vibes it is but he probably doesn't want one now i'm he's not here to defend himself or to talk but but it's it's bloody good it's a great vibe i mean oysters and then that beef pie afterwards for example or the the turbo on the bone i've had there when rich and i did the podcast uh with robin like that we ordered like a main each and i was like i'll have a pie as well you know share a pie it's extraordinary but i think what you're saying michelle is so it's so interesting because and as i say like a lot of this stuff is applicable to any business whether it's whether it's kitchen versus front of house sales i mean when i used to work for a company like the sales team really fucking hated the ops team it was just it was jarring and they're like we're trying to grow the business, you're trying to cut costs, when if there is like a specific argument or like just real tension between two teams, obviously we're talking about the football stuff, or sort of take them on trips but on like an actual specific it's Tuesday front of the house is kicking off with, you know, back of house sorry, kitchen how do you solve that?

58:57Michel Roux Jr.:Like what's the art of solving that? Because there'll be people listening to this who are going to have that issue probably when they get into work after they listen to this on the train, right? Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's any magic wand that you can wave that can solve that problem. There's always going to be problems. There's always going to be problems. I'll tell you what's helped is open kitchens. Open kitchens and being able to see the chefs at work. The guests love that, I think. And I think the chefs love it too because they can see, you know, the instant reaction when the plate of food goes down.

59:30I mean, just for example, we've got this beautiful churros that's landed on our table. My immediate reaction was, wow, you know, so the chef can see that. It's, you know, it's that immediate kind of gratification that you are doing a great job. And it also means that you've got to curb your tempers when you've got an open kitchen. You can't be effing and blinding and you can't be, you know. So there has to be a really good rapport between the front of house and the back of house. So that's really helped. Oh, gosh. I don't know. As I said, there's no magic wand. You can't just magic is away if there is a tension.

1:00:07You can always sort of say, right, walk in fridge now.

1:00:14That's hilarious. That's so funny. It's happened to me a few times.

1:00:20Michel Roux Jr.:What do you like about rugby so much? Why that sport? I played as a schoolboy. Really enjoyed it. What position? What does it look like? I'm not a front row or second row I was on the wing wing or fullback nice yeah speed run yeah yeah yeah but no yeah what did you like about it so much the camaraderie the ethics of rugby being together the team yeah just all of that and also Actually, one thing too is anybody can play it. It doesn't matter what shape, size you are. There's a position there in rugby for you. So, you know, I always say that, and I said it earlier as well. In hospitality, there's a job for everybody.

1:01:14It doesn't matter how good you are. You know, we will, in hospitality, we will find an area where you can excel

1:01:23Michel Roux Jr.:and where you can be happy. And rugby is that. you've got absolutely big fat monsters uh who can you know play and you've got tiny little lives like me who can also play uh and you're playing together the so obviously i think what's really interesting with henry pollock and you know eddie hearn's gone into yes not boxing into rugby. Yeah. And I feel like it can take one amazing character to blow a sport up. We saw it with Conor McGregor with, you know. We need characters like Pollock. Like when Marco launched Harvey's, was that like a similar sort of, was it, did he have almost the Henry, does Henry Pollock have the Marco Pierre White effect?

1:02:15Michel Roux Jr.:Was that what it was like when that happened? Did he come in? That's a really good analogy. I've never thought of it that way, but yeah, kind of, little sort of bad boy, bad boy image, kind of. Winding the crowd up, which Marco was very good at. Yeah. But immense talent. Yes. Immense talent. I think Pollock has definitely got talent there. But rugby needs characters and he's one of them. It was dying. Joe Marlow was another one. Yes. You know, they're characters. They're people that will, you know, there'll be headlines, sometimes for the wrong reasons, but there'll be headlines and they can turn a game.

1:02:56and when people go to rugby, they want to be excited. They want these little moments of magic.

1:03:02Michel Roux Jr.:It became so boring like four years ago. I think I read somewhere that it became really a kicking and penalty game, whereas now it feels like there's way more tries. It's hilarious. Again, when I'm sort of doom scrolling my life away, which I enjoy to do sometimes, but I will watch the clips. And one, it's clear that Henry Pollock's clearly had a meeting with Eddie Hearn somewhere in Essex because he's really ramping up the argy-bargy and the celebrations are becoming more, you know, hilarious. But I think that's really good because it's, you know, I think I saw something of him scrapping with one of the Leicester players on Saturday.

1:03:38Michel Roux Jr.:So I was like, go on, son. But you need that. You need that character. It's crazy because of my doom scroll as well. And there's a lot of criticism of Pollock on social media and they're saying, oh, it's great. The French hate him. They wind him up, blah, blah, blah, this, that and the other. No, the French don't hate him. Really? They love him. They absolutely adore him. Why? Because he's different. Because he's an oddball. Because he is good at what he does. He's a great rugby player and he's got character and flair. That's French rugby. Character and flair. They love him. Why? French rugby is more like football to us, right?

1:04:21Michel Roux Jr.:Right. As in, because in fact, I was literally sat there watching the French game, the Six Nations, speaking to two Parisians over a couple of beers. And they were just saying like how we're obsessed with, as in football, as in soccer. I don't know what I'm saying. But anyway, it's football. But apparently, I think Courtney Laws said this, like the fervor, if that's the right way of saying it, for rugby in France is much bigger than it is here. Is that right? Oh, God, yeah. So what culturally, what's it like? Rugby has taken off in France. I mean, it's always been a very, very popular sport, but now it's even more.

1:04:55And I mean, you just look at the numbers that they get in top 14 in the stadiums. It's just phenomenal. Every game is packed to the rafters. Yeah. And this is a massive following. Why? Probably because there's some great characters in there. The rugby is played with flair. You were mentioning about tries. There's a huge amount of tries being scored. It's a different style of rugby. And not forgetting, France have done really well in the rugby. So in the Olympics, of course, we've got Dupont. Dupont's magic. But he's actually quite possibly on the way now. There are other great players out there.

1:05:37Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah. So, yeah. But if you're going to rugby heartland, you know, the south and southwest of France, it's incredible. It is the number one sport. That's like, my mate's got a place in Gettary, like near Bearritz. I should say it probably, yeah. But yeah, we used to go there and it was absolutely caning it down. It was a summer's day when we walked here. It's now hailing. I think it's hail. It's hail. It's mad. Feels like we're in the depths of winter. Yeah, so Henry Pollock to Marco. Again, it's a bit of a tenuous thing, but I just think it's interesting. No, it isn't. I think it's a really good one.

1:06:13Michel Roux Jr.:But like how, so talk to me about Marco when he first walked through the kitchen. Why was he different, but also why was he better than everyone else? Because you can have all the, you know, verbose character. What I like about Pollock is he backs it up. Yes. Talk to me about that. Yeah, Marco did as well. Absolutely. 100%. He was driven, a little bit crazy on the edges, but so is Pollock, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. that kind of bad boy image. But Marco backed it up with absolutely fabulous cooking. Taste, he's got an unbelievable palate. And he was surrounded by people who understood media then, which is, when you think about it, it's going back, you know, in those days it was before social media, but understood how to use that image of Marco, that rock and roll image.

1:07:09When you say surrounded by media, as in like? media savvy people he was in so marco yeah yeah yeah uh and and it was just the perfect perfect combination uh they had a uh spectacular chef somebody who who really really knew how to produce a great plate of food um had that kind of rebel rock and roll image uh and they just bounced off each other and and that was it it was in the beginning of of a a new era i mean you had you had the one era which i would say was the the rue brothers my my father and uncle yep the 70s early 80s uh and then you had the this this new wave of english chefs uh the marcos and then the Gordon Ramsay later on after that.

1:08:01So they started making cooking rock and roll.

1:08:07Michel Roux Jr.:I think that's what Pollock's done. Conor McGregor did it to UFC. You need those. So during service, why was he better than everyone? Why was he better? Like, was he faster? Was he... If you take me into a service... You were working with him, right? Yeah, we rubbed shoulders when he was at Gavroche for a few months. and when he was at Gavroche as well, which was the original Gavroche, it was on Lower Sloan Street and they moved to 81 to Mayfair. So he was in the 1980s, or 1980, yeah, or maybe 79, 80, he was at Gavroche. But he was fast, furious, even as a commie chef. Fast, furious. He was so, so eager to learn.

1:08:53he couldn't learn quick enough we were not giving him you know enough for him to absorb it was always more, more, more why can't I move on to that section because I want to learn how to do this I want to do this and the eagerness was just unbelievable and that's just Marco and actually Gordon was very similar real sponges soaking up

1:09:22Michel Roux Jr.:What do you think is under-celebrated about those guys?

1:09:29I can't think of anything. We do. We celebrate. And if we don't, then we're fools. Anybody who doesn't celebrate Marco, Gordon, are fools. They are. They are. I mean, they started a revolution. As I said earlier, I think my father and uncle started one. back in the late 60s, early 70s. But then they started the next generation, the late 80s. Yeah, but I think we... And they backed it up. That's the thing. Yeah. Because they backed it up with excellence. Yes. It wasn't just PR. It wasn't just Facebook. It wasn't just social media. It's crap.

1:10:14Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't just TikTok. It wasn't just Instagram or you name it. They backed it up. What's Gordon like off camera? Because I know Emily was saying that you guys know. Yeah, great guy. She's so tight. I can understand that people like Gordon and Marco as well are a marmite. Yeah, some people just like Harry Pollock. Like Henry Pollock. but you can never take away from the fact that both of those are just exceptionally gifted I would not so I go booze a lot on Bellevue Road if you go out boozing yes and here, if I'm not here on Bellevue Road but I think it's interesting like going through Wandsworth Common where Harbeast was and was now like that because it's kind of a quiet road it's i think when it's yeah you wouldn't this this global coloring institution is there it's there and i just find like it's so perplexing they're not perplexing but it's just it's kind of and back then it was that was a was like quite far out of everything it was in the mixture like could you paint the picture of of london and what that was like compared to now and then what it was like when you first went into harvey's because i think that.

1:11:42Michel Roux Jr.:I just find that I go past that place where the White Eat book was all the time. What was that like for you? No, Arby's was fantastic. I mean, I remember going there when it first opened and thinking, wow. We've got a superstar chef in the making, because I knew he was going to be a superstar chef on my doorstep, because I live in Clapham. We had time to still live there. And I'm thinking, wow, this is unbelievable. No need to go into Mayfair. No need to go into Tann. There's a fabulous restaurant in the making here. And it wasn't any. It grew and grew and grew until it outgrew that tiny little place in South London.

1:12:30But, yeah, it was magical. It really was. And I remember eating there and thinking, shit, it's cost me just this much. Because his prices, when he first opened, were just like so, so competitive, so cheap. Really? Oh, my God, yeah. I can't remember the exact price he paid. But in comparison to going in tan. So he was, you know, he was very clever. He made sure that his prices were.

1:12:58Michel Roux Jr.:But what I think was in his book or someone's book, Red, is like now obviously there's more restaurants around here, but then it was like you're hoping to get people, not dragging to the earth into nowhere, because that's a bit... But as in it was quite far out back there. Winsworth Common wasn't like it is now. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, as I said, I've always lived in South London, tooting before that happened. them. But even, dare I say, in the 80s, if you got into a taxi by Pop Corner and said, I'm going to Clapham, they'd say, sorry, mate, I'm not. Find another taxi. A lot of taxis wouldn't come across the river.

1:13:40Michel Roux Jr.:No. Why? Because it was the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they wouldn't get a fare back. I mean, well, now that's certainly not the case. but then yeah what did it look like when you went inside it was a beautiful restaurant I mean I went there loads of times really a lot of times because it was the best restaurant in my local area and to see the evolution of it as well to see how Mark progressed from Harvey's the early days to Harvey's at the end where he he outgrew it. He had to move. Yeah, so what was that progression? I always find progressions, and then, like, if anything, is really important.

1:14:29I mean, he started as Marco always did, running rather than walking. And, you know, he wanted those Michelin stars. We spoke earlier about not chasing Michelin stars, but I think that he was so driven, he wanted that. And very, very driven. And, yeah, It was just great to see that progression, to see it get better and better and better. And I think every time I went, I never went at least a dozen times in the early years when he was there. And to see the progression every time, it was just...

1:15:08Michel Roux Jr.:So I interviewed the founder of Sir Alice of the Week, Nick Jones. And I think the way he designs things was really intentional and really clever. and one of his things uh is removing friction he just looks he like really like focuses on what is the friction and then remove visit so he was talking about like he'd you know it's quite interesting so he's just this will go live after this but out so it's fine but he's about to talk to this new hotel and um and he was showed me one of the rooms he was like okay so when you go into a hotel what's really annoying is you get this tv remote you're like how the fuck do I use this it's about 10 buttons yeah so he's created a tv remote which just says on off and i think then the middle button is netflix because that's what you need now it's like on off netflix then like in the in the um the cabinet on the when you go into the bathroom right you know it's usually and i think he's called it like uh oh my god what's he called it like something really interesting like what's anyway and it's got a little tag on it but everything in there is free it's got all the cool brands like it's just he's really thought about everything he's got this door that opens there because like when you go into a hotel room there's always um and again i just i've just been a board tool i just put my clothes away i just think fuck it just and i just dab out the case because that's really frustrating and and that is a lot of friction and this whole thing is remove friction like what is the friction you see in in restaurants and that could be removed you know i mean i'm just thinking of hotel rooms they they're jarring aren't they they can be You can't, there's the buddy on and off switch for the lights as well.

1:16:46Michel Roux Jr.:Also, I feel like when you go into a shower, I'm like, mate, what's going on here? Like, sometimes I'm like twisting things, I'm like, is this going on? Is it boiling hot? Oh, yeah. Those are all the hotel rooms are the Galafio Islands of friction. Yeah, and every hotel room is different as well. So, yeah. Sorry, back to restaurants. Yeah, you know, I think friction's just a really interesting, like removing little bits of friction because, again, linking this to Will Goddari is like, actually finding that friction is where there's opportunity for really magical things. Yeah, but I think, you know, the human element is key and is important.

1:17:24I don't like QR codes for menus or for paying or for ordering or this, that, and the other. And for years, I used to get wound up as well about booking a restaurant online, it still annoys me a bit, if I'm honest, but that's probably my age. It's clunky. I'm getting old and grumpy. It's gone full circle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the joy of phoning up a restaurant and having somebody who knows how to answer a phone. What do you mean by that? Smiling. So I always used to say to the person who would answer the phone on my behalf, because it is, it's on my behalf. Le Gavroche is smile when you're answering.

1:18:16And the immediate thing would be, well, the person can't see me. He said, no, but they can hear you. And if you're smiling when you're saying, good morning, Le Gavroche here, can I help you? Or if you're, morning, Le Gavroche, Le Gavroche. It's totally different. It puts a completely different tone in your voice and manner as we can. So things like that. that took away that touch point that first touch point which I think makes a restaurant or can make a restaurant or break a restaurant it's that first kind of whereas if you're booking online you just get on pissed off

1:18:58Michel Roux Jr.:they make you put your card details in it's such an irritant thing I want to go at 7 7.15 I understand, I get it, I understand sure but yeah it's everything like that so the what else so the smiling thing is really interesting any other of those little things because i think the little things are the big things like little things you put in place that was in the kitchen that's right they're smiling onto the phone what else other examples like that i think it's really fascinating yeah yeah umbrellas umbrellas at the door um and uh and don't chase a customer down the road if they nicked your umbrella?

1:19:40They've taken your umbrella because it's raining. That's pretty good word on earth.

1:19:44Michel Roux Jr.:Mark your logo on it. It's cost me 10 quid. So what? It's a great piece of advertising and that person has taken home your umbrella and you cherish it because they didn't get wet on their way home. Little things like that. I used to train the receptionist

1:20:11and you see the taxi arriving and see the car evolving open the door but don't just do that go out and open the taxi door or hold the taxi it's raining about your umbrella so you you're literally going out to welcome somebody in as opposed to just waiting so they open the door

1:20:31Michel Roux Jr.:Yes, yes, yes. It is it. And all of those kind of service touch points and eye content and opening your body when people come in. Almost, I'm exaggerating here by putting my arms out, but almost as if you're giving somebody a hug as they walk in. I interview Jeremy King, and he was saying he went for dinner with, it's in his book actually, it's really interesting, with Ruthie Rogers from the River Cafe. and they're having a dinner somewhere it was she was with her granddaughter and i think that they came around to you know to sort of deliver the bill or whatever and ruthie said to her granddaughter color and jeremy was like what are you on about and she said brown right and basically it was the color of the waiter's eyes so she was already telling her granddaughter to look at look basically look into people's eyes eye contact's really important and it's like I just thought like and obviously she's a legend but like drilling that in at that age is just because it's again that's what I say it's like you know I really believe restaurants are a microcosm for humanity it's like lessons you they are little they're little you see humanity in restaurants do you know what I mean and it's that's why that's why I think QR codes and things like that are taking away that yeah that humanity you can imagine people around like a Neanderthals round of fire using QR codes.

1:21:53Michel Roux Jr.:We used to have a little occasion with my daughter and I do sort of think that whenever we used to go and eat out without each other, so if I was going out with my wife to a restaurant, to a nice restaurant, message her first kind of thoughts of the place was butter was good. And so it's carried on. We haven't done it for a while Well, yeah, but it's still something that we talk about occasionally is we go out, we taste the butter. And if the butter's good, it's normally a good sign. Where's the simmering of butter? The rest of the meal is going to follow. Yeah. Because it's little things like that.

1:22:32It's the choice of butter. And if it's served at the right temperature. So if the butter's good.

1:22:39Michel Roux Jr.:So what is that like? Yeah, because I love bread and butter. Bread and butter is just. It means that the chef takes care of the smaller details. The Adam Handing's restaurant in what is pub in Windsor, Lock and Tyne, their bread and butters, they have this chicken skin butter, and then they have this doorstop thick sourdough, but then they have a little pool of gravy. It's just insane. What's some of the best bread and butter you've tried? So I'm not a huge fan of emulsified butters and chicken skin butter or anything like that. And for me, proper good quality salted butter. I like britting the butter.

1:23:27I'm a little bit biased with that one. I just like that flavour profile. Served at the right temperature, not too cold, but definitely not sort of soft and spreadable. You've got to be able to...

1:23:40Michel Roux Jr.:It's got to have some firmness to it. Interesting. And then what sort of bread are you rocking and rolling with? Any bread, as long as it's good. Yeah. You know, I love a great baguette. I love sourdough. Although that's been overplayed now, hasn't it? There's more and more sourdough everywhere and sourdoughed up to my eyeballs. I think sourdough, if I was the pecking order of bread, like you've got baguette, you've got milk bun, like the milk bun things they do at Devonshire, treacle bread like sourdough is probably not even the champions league of my breads it's kind of a kind of it's kind of like yeah but it's but i don't know it's become so it's become so ubiquitous so what i what i don't like in restaurants is that they offer you too many different varieties of bread and none of them are really stand out why not just concentrate on one bread yes and nail it simplicity yeah there's a um yeah simplicity something i would like to school with you because I think that was Nick's thing is also how it's just simplicity but there's the Da Vinci quote which my mate who's probably the most complicated guy on planet earth has got tattooed on him which is like simplicity is the greatest sophistication but he's hilarious but he so what's the art of simple like so we talked about the bread simplifying that what other things you think should be booking processes simplified what else should be simplified food right Unclutter, simplify, knowing when to stop.

1:25:12I mean, it's a common trait in young chefs, is wanting to put too much on plate and not know when to stop. Why do you think that hits? Is that... Going back to this, TikTok and Insta, and these beautiful plates of food. Yeah, they're beautiful. Yes, I get that. I understand it. But sometimes, you know, that extra sauce, that second or third sauce that's on the plate, or that puree or that gel of this or that sprinkling of whatever, it's just one step too far. So bring it back, rein it in. All the stuff that you put on the plate, is that really going to showcase that beautiful Diver Court scallop that has a fabulous yet delicate plate profile?

1:26:03Does it need all of that on the plate? In fact, it's... Yeah, simple is hard, isn't it? Bloody hard. You know, great Escoffier, Fait Sampe.

1:26:15Michel Roux Jr.:Just keep it simple. Keep it simple. And no one can say that Escoffier's food wasn't complex. There's like 101 ingredients in every dish. Yet his motto was Fait Sampe. Is that the way to stop? I mean I'm like I'm just looking at sort of business lens I want to try a gazillion different projects and it's like just try and do one thing well but like what we have what have you learned about simplifying from like a business perspective like make making a successful well group restaurants I think that is not just the play it's it's the p &l like you know that it goes but it that's a great life lesson like what would you what's the art of yeah simplifying a business I think it's trying to find the most profitable area of your business and concentrating on that if you take it all down to the bare bones to what brings in the most money and not necessarily actually what brings in the most money what brings the best profit bottom line of your business focus on that and make that the best So what was that for you guys?

1:27:34Well, if I look back to after the pandemic, just as an example, after the pandemic, we lost a lot of staff that didn't come back. And that was in general. That was a lot of people found that. um and so we were operating the restaurant uh with gosh it was about 20 less staff than normal

1:28:04Michel Roux Jr.:and still open for lunch and dinner so going to the most profitable thing yeah so i mean for example when we came back from covid we lost a lot of staff yeah and that was in general lots of people, lots of restaurants, lots of, they just didn't come back. Went to France, Italy, Spain, wherever. And then when restrictions were over and furlough stopped, funny enough, they didn't come back. So we did one week at Leucard-Froche where we were about, I think, 15, maybe 20 short staffed. After one week of doing lunch and dinner service, I said, we can't do this. This is just not working. Let's have a reset.

1:28:46Let's have a rethink. So out of adversity sometimes comes, you know, positives.

1:28:52Michel Roux Jr.:Well, Churchill, adversity is a terrible thing to waste. Exactly. Right with that. Yeah. So I sat down and I, and I thought through it, the issue, the problem, and the least profitable part of the business at Le Gavroche was the lunch menu. opening up for lunch and the vast majority of people coming to lunch would have the bargain that was lunch menu and we would fill the fill the place up do 60 70 sometimes 80 covers for a very minimum take and a tiny tiny little profit so it was a massive amount of work for very very little bottom line. So I said, hang on, let's ditch lunch. Let's concentrate on dinner.

1:29:44Let's make sure that our a la carte and our tasting menu at dinner is the best we can do with the number of staff that we have and open up a little bit earlier. So make the hours of opening in the evening a little bit longer which means we can easily relay more tables so open up at five and so three hours eight o 'clock relay some tables at eight

1:30:17Michel Roux Jr.:so so it's basically the most the net profit is the compass of where to focus yeah absolutely so so you simplify your business and make sure it's streamlined and that it works best for not just the company but for the staff as well because then the staff cut their hours cut the stress as well because the lunch menu was changing weekly and it was a choice of 333 so it was incredibly stressful and tough and hard on all of us um so knocking that on the head and just then focusing on the a la carte and the tasting menu in the evening uh meant that it was it became more profitable for one a better place to work in everybody enjoyed it because everybody had to lie in in the morning um and and less stressful in the evenings because the tables were more spaced out as well because we opened up at five so i believe distractions masquerades opportunities right and you can try lots of different you know you know you must getting all sorts coming knocking on your door like how how did so if you're on the one hand saying find the most the thing that brings in the most net profit and dial in there on the other hand you're probably getting you know either tv work i don't know if it's at this stage but like there's a whole panoply of books whatever how did you navigate saying what to say yes to and what to say no to oh gosh that was that i would say yes well yeah yeah yeah i think it dawned on me at one stage where I looked at the television and I saw I was on afternoon TV on one channel, I was on early evening on another channel, and I was on prime time on another one.

1:32:03So on the same day, and I go, no, this isn't right. This is just not right. I'm saying yes to too many things. And I do not want to become a celebrity chef. Although, don't get me wrong i've enjoyed all the tv work that i do and there may be maybe more but i want to be known more for what i did in the restaurant and look at my tv work if that makes sense um so so i i then went no i i i've got to i've got to rein back some of this um what was the first bit of tv work you ever did uh master chef professionals i mean you went straight into that i didn't realize yeah well i mean i i did guest guest appearances on various other things uh uh but but no the first full full on was master of professionals that uh uh that we launched so yeah what was that experience like i loved it it was great great because it was it was it was mentoring in many respects and it was uh it was mentoring nurturing and giving an opportunity for young professional chefs to uh you know to achieve their dreams and their goals and uh it was probably not allowed in my contract but a lot of the finalists i employed yeah i say not allowed i weren't allowed to approach them but they were allowed to approach me yeah yeah no that's so clever what's the um

1:33:29Michel Roux Jr.:so i want to talk about the roose scholarship um interviewed sat baines um who i love he's such a legend yeah such a massive character and um he talked in just the most fond and you know celebratory terms of it but like what's that been like and how do you think about that and you're um now you're out of out of gavroche you've had more time i think we talked about like what yeah talk to me about that so well for me the root scholarship is again uh an opportunity to mentor and to inspire the next generation, not just inspire, actually help the next generation of chefs. I mean, Sap Bains is a great example, but there are so many.

1:34:15And it's just a great celebration of chefs. And being able to do that, to offer that opportunity is something special. It's something that my father and uncle created and that now my cousin, myself and my daughter are sort of really taking on to the next level.

1:34:40Michel Roux Jr.:And what is that next level? Where are you, how do you want to strengthen it, make it better, make it different? Well, it's not changing its structure that much, but evolving it and making it more relevant to the style of food that is expected now. So when we first took over, my cousin and I, from the two brothers, it was very, very, very classical food. The competition was diehard classic. Veal all off, for example, as a dish to be cooked in the final and such like. So if you didn't know your Escoffier classics, you didn't have a chance of winning. You really didn't. Sure. So we've evolved it.

1:35:34We've taken it to the next step. And that's using French classic technique, yes. But letting the character and the skills of individuals shine through as well. And then we go on big trips. We last year went to Mexico with 16 of the scholars. So, you know, two and a half weeks in Mexico, eating breakfast, lunch and dinner.

1:36:07Michel Roux Jr.:Sounds delightful. It was hard work. Yeah. What's the best Mexican, what would you have for Mexican breakfast? Is that the egg? What is it called? Yeah, I love Mexican food. I think Mexican food in London is a bit suspect. Other than coal. Yeah, I was going to say, Colt ought to do a brilliant job. I'm there next week, actually. Can't wait. Have you been to Fonda? No. So that's his, like, Santi's more kind of accessible place. It's by, you know, the Starman Pub. No, I've not been. No, no, as in like the, where's all those bread, Hedon Street, that's where it is. Hedon, yeah. Yeah, and, oh my God.

1:36:48Michel Roux Jr.:So it's like, it's more kind of, you know, like really great kind of tacos and just you know but it's basic it's like coal but more accessible than life insanely delicious it is delicious delicious food i mean we were blown away by all of the the fragrance and the different spices and the the cooking methods obviously and uh yeah and for me the generosity of the people as well really beautiful people what uh how are they sort of different from say the french and the english deathly silence i think i think in mexico what we found it was it was just that natural warmth uh we went to the yucatan a lot uh and the mayan people and understanding their culture and and it was just genuine warmth um we felt that it was it was more than anything it was true hospitality genuine hospitality uh and in yucatan you know there's not a lot of money there's there's really you know we went to some villages where people were cooking uh for us and you could see there's there's poverty there but they genuinely were hospitable and you know just happy to see us and uh although there was a language bit of a language barrier i don't speak much spanish uh it was just a beautiful beautiful experience and and that carried on through all the way to mexico city where um you know it's it's a megapolis it is huge apparently it's matt like one like area that you don't go into is like the size of um like a brooklyn or something like i've listened to on a podcast i didn't realize obviously never been but apparently it's huge well worth a visit i mean you can spend a couple of weeks just in Mexico City and you've not touched the sides I mean it's it's an incredible place but we didn't feel any animosity or didn't feel threatened we walked a lot uh through the city uh and everywhere we went to I mean it was just yeah a joy so when you're taking these scholars out there like what are you trying to impart on them like is it like like is it cooking um coloring lessons or is it bigger lessons like obviously food yeah of course yeah we it's it's all all pre-arranged we we make sure everything is is you know not left to chance so uh all organized but we also visited the culinary school there as well so we did a day in the culinary school which was amazing yeah yeah absolutely amazing um and uh and then but all kinds of food so michelin star to street food and then visiting the markets.

1:39:24We visited the canal system where they grow a lot of the vegetables, all organic vegetables. It's a lot of that. And then culture as well. So Yucatan, learning about the Mayan people. What's Yucatan? It's a province of Mexico. Right. Yeah. So learning about the history of the place, the food obviously uh and and how how how all of that you know is in a melting pot and what we think of mexican food here and what it really is out there

1:40:06Michel Roux Jr.:what's yeah because that's what's the um what's the actual difference between what they what you were eating out there versus say what we get down here which is other than santi is a bit pedestrian in yeah yeah i mean i suppose everybody you know you say mexican food and everybody goes oh yeah you know tacos and guacamole which is banging it's delicious yeah yeah yeah but the guacamole we tasted out there was certainly a lot more different than the one you get in mns or anything like that you know so it's yeah it was it was trying to get authentic taste authentic taste and flavour and they're just getting a glimpse of the history of their food and their culture.

1:40:50Michel Roux Jr.:What was a few more things we'll get into the app this up Michelle, I love chatting to you, chin wagging, we could talk for ages but what was the beginning of the end of the Gavroche, what was that when you're the beginning of the end yeah? so you mean once i'd taken the decision no no pre that decision but what was the maybe a year before two years before like what was that period like yeah well it was just getting out of covid uh and and wanting to make sure that the restaurant survived that it wasn't covid that killed the restaurant that that that was my that was my one focus it was because there was there There was hardly any money left in the bank.

1:41:32There was no money left in the bank. It was, you know, it was, that's it. And how are we going to operate? So week one, when we reopened, I told you it was a shit show. It was bloody, bloody hard. So we had to reassess. So, you know, detail week one, like you open the doors. Full to the rafters.

1:41:51Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah. 20 less staff all working the ridiculous hours and shattered at the end of it and end of week one going nah we can't carry on like this so it was reassessing that's the thing you survive if you can change and adapt and out of adversity comes as I said earlier so being able to adapt and being able to understand and reacting quickly is really important in any business. But my focus was on making sure that the restaurant would survive because since 67, the restaurant had gone through general strikes, IRA bombings, power cuts, you name it, 101 different adversities. but it always survived so my goal was gavroche will survive covid uh and we did so we turned it around made it again into a very you know healthy good business what did you do to make it profitable well shutting lunch helped yeah yeah yeah so we cut back on the number of staff kept kept the number of staff as it uh low but enough to make sure that the dinner service was perfect um and uh so yeah i just changed the business model so you you know sometimes adversity helps you make decisions um to adversity helps you make decisions what other adverse so when i adversity strikes now like how do you like immediately turn it or try to turn it into uh you know fertile territory for opportunity or fertile fodder for opportunity yeah but i I always say don't be afraid of making a mistake.

1:43:50Mistakes can be terrible, yes, but they can also make you stronger. So rather than taking that step, rather than not taking that step because you're afraid of making a mistake, take that step. And if you do make a mistake, then you grow stronger for it.

1:44:12Michel Roux Jr.:You grow, you do, So, sorry, so taking the step, but even if you make a mistake, that's still... I see it as a positive. Yeah. I see it as making you stronger. But if you are afraid to make that mistake, you're always going to stay in the same place. You're never going to go forward. That's when you're kind of in that, I suppose, link it right back to the beginning is the wall bit. Yeah. What's the... So in running, you've got to go slow to go fast, which I'm awful at. The tortoise and the hare, isn't it? Yeah, but I mean, I'm really neeking out on this now. um but like i'm getting really into it i've got the good i've got the addictive um well done gene i just need to put down the cigarettes for that that will come give me another marathon and then um but but yeah there's an art slowing down to speed up which is like all this zone two bollocks but apparently it's really interesting but like what how have you learned to slow down because i feel like you know you're saying at the beginning of that like you're just taking on take it on from old man that kind of like we talked about marcos just like that ferocious fast and furious I think you said like slowing down to speed up talk about that yeah I suppose that comes with age and it comes with experience um it's very difficult to for young up-and-coming chefs to slow down because it's the euphoria of youth and and you know wanting to uh to really make their mark.

1:45:37I mean, if you look at marathon running, for example, a lot of marathon runners are in their 40s as opposed to, you know, younger runners want to run fast. They'll do the 100 metre, the 200 metre, whatever. You know, that's this pent-up energy, this wanting to, you know, really, really get that adrenaline pumping and it's the same way in the kitchen um so but that's maturity i think it's maturity equals slowness right so what you're trying to slow it's it's understanding at what speed you

1:46:16Michel Roux Jr.:have to go to achieve your goal interesting and what was that how did what was to get because how long were you running it for stamina's like you had this amazing stamina with all the tvs how did you say that's too fast that's too slow like how did you get that sweet spot i don't know interesting i it's it's but you you know when you found it that's that's the thing it's just that sort of clicking into clicking everything into place it's mad i mean don't get me wrong i was shattered because i mean i would i would do a maybe eight hours filming with master chef and then I'd go back to the restaurant and do an evening shift.

1:47:01Sometimes I used to run back from the studio as well.

1:47:03Michel Roux Jr.:Where was it being that filmed? At the time I was in Wandsworth. Oh, whereabouts? I'm being really curious. Young's Brewery, which is now High Rise Flats. Yes. The Ram. Yeah, I know, exactly. Yeah, my mates have done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'd do eight hours filming there in the morning and then sometimes run back to the restaurant and do the evening shift in the restaurant and then go back filming the next morning and we'd say, oh, you look tired. I'd say, well, yeah. I went, oh, I was working last night. He said, huh? You were working last night? He said, well, yeah. So what time would you get to the MasterChef?

1:47:40Michel Roux Jr.:So what would that look like? It would be like a 6am to a... No, very rarely would it be 6am. Then you'd be very grumpy. 7, 8. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow, yeah. So still early. Yeah. That's so interesting. I remember getting comments on social media saying, oh, he looks like death or, you know, he looks skeletal. Oh, the bag's under his eyes. I said, well, yeah, I'm fucking working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not my day job filming. My day job is running my restaurant. And would it ever, how would you not let that impact the restaurant? Do you know what I mean? Well, you're only as good as the team that you've got in place.

1:48:22Right, OK. And so I had a fantastic team, head chefs and other chefs there. But regardless of that, because I've always been a very hands-on person, I would still go in. I mean, I'm sure they did a perfectly good job without me.

1:48:41Michel Roux Jr.:Yeah. Probably did an even better job without me. Were you a control freak? You have to be. You have to be. I think so. Interesting. Mate, let's wrap that up. Always a joy. thank you so much michelle cheers thank you

1:48:58Michel Roux Jr.:thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much