Sat Bains (update) - Surviving a Deadly Heart Attack, Banning Caviar & Truffle, Winning 2 Michelin Stars, The Behavioural Science Wine List that Makes £1000's

16:04Dan:Exactly, yeah.

16:05Sat Bains:Because you've done your research and all that and actually told me about yourself to give you a bell. And I think the idea for me is like the honesty and the passion and the desire to keep pushing and not look at it like, I've been here 25 years taking a photo of the gas all that bollocks no these guys that are coming tonight and you might only have fucking 10 covers in tonight but they've still got a world class experience because if I took my foot off I've done a massive misjustice to that customer

16:34Dan:and to the team so I know one of the things I've read as you say like this I've got me and Rich have it this white belt mentality I think you call it clean slate mentality so every day every podcast we do we rip it up start again I don't want to be saying the same stuff I read all sorts I want it just to be fresh and that's why it always changed the environment so if I was in a studio

16:54Sat Bains:I would go fucking nuts

16:56Dan:it would be quite systematic it's so systematic like I don't know you pick up like even speaking to John this morning like seeing all these weird like Willy Wonka fucking scenes like all these things add to the add to the experience right but I think in terms of that because I think part of keep pushing is the way you keep pushing in my mind is keep wiping slate clean or you or white belt mentality of what you want to say is like go back to square one in the last couple of weeks what are some of the new things you've learned so for example we're now in a season where it's game season my favorite

17:28Sat Bains:season in the world yeah so we've got some really good dishes on but they've been on probably four to six weeks so because they've been on four to six weeks there's nothing wrong with that and you can change dishes every three months it's not an issue but there's an element of me that thinks is probably getting a little bit complacent because I need to now tweak a dish or change a dish. Not because we're getting the same clientele in all the time, but I just need to keep an element of the dishes moving so there's a new element that people still feel invigorated about cooking it.

18:01Dan:Because you know you said it's like an organism. That's what I feel here. I really do feel that. But as you say, you're almost stoking it, keeping it moving.

18:09Sat Bains:Because the complacency is death, as we all know in business, being stagnant and complacent because I think you take your foot off the gas. If you are complacent and there's nothing wrong with tiny little percentages of complacency to say, fuck, can I be busy tonight? Thank God we've got a full restaurant on a Saturday. I'm complacent for that period but then I'm automatically looking next week or next week's quiet on Wednesday, what we're going to do? Because I can't allow yourself to be in that joyous feeling of success because success is fickle. If you start believing your own heart, you're fucked.

18:41Sat Bains:I'm never going to be the best chef ever of the UK. I'm a mediocre chef. I'm a mediocre businessman. But the drive is 100%. Drive to be better tomorrow is the one that's driving me. The blank canvas, the white belt. Because I still know nothing in my head at 38 years in the kitchen, surely then I've got to apply myself each day and each week and each month to be better. I can't think I've got this repertoire of dishes that are all in all these books. And I can just keep going back to them. what I say to John all the time the guy's like okay we did that that was a great dish how can we do the next version of it but evolve it

19:17Dan:but I also think if one of some of the people I've spoken to Rory's like this staying naive as you get older or getting actually getting more naive as you get older so the more you're in it the less you know

19:27Sat Bains:that also keeps it enjoyable also vulnerability keeping yourself vulnerable how do you keep yourself vulnerable by not knowing

19:35Dan:but if you start saying

19:36Sat Bains:I know that I don't know fuck all you know when scallops come each time they come in and we're prepping them I'm still scared to hold one in case I rip it yeah but that's because you're not complacent because you think fucking I can't do this scallop misjustice by leaving half the flesh attached to the shell I've got to make sure I do it justice by getting to that point because that's you know

19:54Dan:Ash was showing me I was having beers with him and he was showing me I don't know if he was up here or you texted him yeah and he was here was that here it was here when he came up here

20:02Sat Bains:it was hilarious because I saw it in Spain that was it he was saying it and he goes why the fuck have I not thought about this because I don't know. Yeah, what was it? Just to give context. So basically, it's a scallop shell. Yeah. You've cut the scallop, the flat side off. You left the bit at the bottom and then what you've got, you take the row out and all the skirt, give it a wash and then what happens when you turn it upside down, it just hangs. So you sit it on the plancher. So it's a Spanish technique. Yeah. Sit on the plancher like that and then the scallop just touches the griddle but then the steam creates this beautiful cooking vortex.

20:31Dan:Yes, that's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:32Sat Bains:And then I turn it over and I put this little sauce of the edge with rose pickle, roses and all that shit in it and he goes for fuck's sake and we both look to each other why why haven't we thought yes but again because you're looking yeah because you're looking for that new you're looking for the scallop hasn't given up all her secrets yet yeah when you think about that a scallop is a beautiful piece of uh protein right but what if you've only scratched 10 of what scallops available because you've not investigated it enough so we're stupid enough to You think, yeah, scallops, pan-fried, sear, blah, blah, roasted butter.

21:04Sat Bains:That's it, I know scallops. What if there's scallops that you've never even learnt about yet or been taught about or understood yet because you've not studied it enough to say, you know, yes, you can serve as a sofiche, a tartare, poached, steamed. What if there's something that you've not done yet? So surely the excitement is, I still don't know anything about you yet. I can't wait to explore it a little bit more.

21:28Dan:It's naivety equals curiosity equals excitement. Yeah, that's exactly it. And that's what I get from doing this. It's like a feeling of constant learning. Because we don't know.

21:36Sat Bains:Yes, we've been in this industry a long time, and we've had a restaurant 26 years, whatever, but I still know nothing. So if I knew... I'm not saying you'll ever know everything, but the idea is to go into the guises I don't know anything because that's when the opportunities for learning happen. So if you're not knowing, you're then looking to learn. So that means you're open to interpretation or ideas. You listen to the youngsters, listen to the front of house team, oh chef if we did this that would be better oh my god brilliant idea you know manda's vision is all about the customer service all about the expectation mind in the kitchen all the discipline with the guys but then one of them can easily that what you have to have an open forum say everybody has the accessibility to an idea and i hate the idea of someone going no no you don't know you're a young lad what if that 19 year old kid had the missing link to that dish you've been working on for nearly six months yeah but give them the opportunity to talk about food any examples

22:29Dan:of that where that's happened like a youngster's come in and you because you've created this as

22:33Sat Bains:you say this sort of open vulnerable environment it is but it there's not specifics but there's there's hundreds of them yes in terms of how things will evolve so we all say okay let's do this and someone will go okay chef what about that let's do this we need some acidity in there so acidity back in the day so we are going back a long time when i looked at acidity and it was like lemon but then it's like also grapes and wine and fermented foods and it was everything yeah so acidity comes from many guys's yeah so all of a sudden you're not just looking at the lemon which is what as a chef you think yeah you need some acidity i'll get some lemon juice on there well hang on why don't we just use something like apple juice or something like a little bit of white wine vinegar or and all of a sudden these opportunities open because you're not looking for you're not looking for acidity you're looking for a specific acidity because that's now umbrellas into acidities like the ball then all the spider graph that comes off it is all the other acidic things that it could be like yuzu and citrus and then you've got like you know um let's see bookthorn and you've got vinegars and then you've got all the plethora

23:40Dan:of vinegars and you've got the balsamics yes and then also even you can get acidity from

23:44Sat Bains:olive oil so jimmy so all of a sudden you get all this mad rain okay that really would do actually I think it will work well with pickled carrot juice.

23:54Dan:Yeah.

23:55Sat Bains:That will really go well with that sauce, Jacqueline for that scallop dish because it has carrots in already or sauce. You know what I mean? It's like, so you're trying to open up this opportunity of looking not just down the normal barrel of ingredients. Say, let's look left and right and see what else is available. But then opening that into the guys in the kitchen saying, what do you think? And sometimes some...

24:18Dan:Yes. That's why I don't... Freedom, innit? Freedom. Freedom, and that's kind of the narnier thing that I keep going back to, is that curiosity and just wonder. As you said, that's kind of what I think curiosity is. People can look at it. Some people look at this, as you say, like acidity, but as you said, it flowers into this much bigger thing, and that's where the fun happens. That's where all the fun happens. I want to go back to the sort of, you know, the least trodden path is the hard path. I feel like people who come here, you know, Gareth Ward, Tom Spencey, they come here, and there's this, as you said, there's this touch of sat that goes into their work and then they create their own sort of being.

24:52Dan:What are some of the hard things they learn and can only learn in this kitchen versus other kitchen? How are you different? How's the sat way different? I think it's difficult to talk about yourself like that

25:02Sat Bains:because I don't know any other version of me.

25:04Dan:Yeah, yeah.

25:05Sat Bains:So I'm very demanding of myself and I'm also demanding of them because I don't want to waste their time. So my biggest failing is I didn't give them enough time or effort.

25:15Dan:Okay.

25:15Sat Bains:So if I had you as a chef and you came here with your two hands and your palate and your eagerness and your whole attitude. And I just was nonchalant towards you. And I thought, yeah, he's a twat, fuck it. But I've really disrespected your career path. The fact you've come here is enough for me to say, you know what? I really need to make sure you're working hard, working clean, you understand. And then after a certain period of time, which normally happens after about 12 to 18 months, some chefs will take a bit longer, but normally around 18 months, there's a click and they almost turn into the everything that you've been teaching them for that 18 months goes into that and then they start getting it so then they start coming to you with ideas of dishes but it's in the same vein as what you've been doing whereas when they start at first a lot of chefs will come from where they've just come from and then trying to because their knowledge is that and what they'll do very very normally is they'll go oh why don't we do this and i said did you do that in your last job yeah something similar so i'm not interested in that I want them to look at scallops langoustines as if it was the first time they ever saw one what could you do with a langoustine if you've never seen one that means for everything you know for everything you've done now look at what it is it's a protein, it's sweet, it's fucking incredible it can be roasted, it gets sweeter it can be poached, it can be tartar what do you think would do that langoustine the greatest justice and you're going to be in charge of what do you think and they're like, fuck me.

26:43Sat Bains:Fuck me.

26:44Dan:But no, but that's brilliant.

26:46Sat Bains:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:48Dan:What are the behaviours or disciplines? I know you've talked about disciplines that take, so they start here and they end up here and this is where the click happens. What are some of the things that they need to develop personally to get them to the point where the click is never small?

27:02Sat Bains:I think it's to do with their journey. Everyone's individual, not everyone does the same. But it's about the discipline I say is cleanliness, your working methods, the way you see a chef work tells you a lot about how they are in their career so if you see a chef very beautifully clean working systematically everything's like at the right time almost like a conductor you see a guy in a violin everything notes made perfect sometimes they're very systematic and formulaic but they could miss something that could be a bit maverick so you almost want sometimes a bit of scruffiness because that you can train that out of them but the one that was a bit more crazier in the terms of the flair you don't want to lose that because that's that's a bit of magic dust if you know what i mean yeah yeah you don't want robots yeah you still want i still want your identity as a chef and i still want you to put your down and say listen yeah this is this is me i've been taught this but then you're going to work yourself in a way that you feel your section is individual to you yeah so you can't have a system where it's robotic that everyone's got to work the same it's like when we we're changing over two sections at the moment one of the chefs is teaching one guy fish one of the girls is teaching one guy meat I know for so I'm listening to them I'm not getting involved I listen to the dishes come up we taste it we tweak it so I'm listening to them and they're saying things that I've said to them like work clean whitey board but I know that that's them passing on my idea but they've got to find their own feet before they start doing that because that's alien to them at the moment so they're so into a new system that they've got to first find their own feed.

28:40Sat Bains:So normally what happens is you normally tell them to set up how they would have set up somewhere else. So it gives it familiarity.

28:46Dan:Yeah.

28:47Sat Bains:So you then feel straight away that your section, if you close your eyes, your salt was there, your butter's there, your spoons are there. So you kind of get that bit going.

28:54Dan:Yeah.

28:54Sat Bains:And then you start tweaking them to work in a more efficient, very small space. Wow. And it's loads of tiny things like that. So if you look at the Gareth and the Toms or the genius.

29:02Dan:Yeah, I was going to say, what was Gareth like? It was brilliant. Gareth was brilliant. when he started yeah when he starts here versus when he left I've always said the one thing I've said

29:10Sat Bains:and I think I'll stand for this is I've never really taught him how to cook I've probably taught him how to think and that's very different yeah because I've heard you say that a lot that's very different because I want them to be obsessed with food yep I'm not interested in how fast they can fill it at Red Mullet I don't give a shit yeah yeah it's what we're going to do with the Red Mullet now yeah

29:31Dan:what we're going to do with it

29:33Sat Bains:what we're going to do with that Red Mullet so it's quite oily quite earthy what we're going to do classically serve it with a Mediterranean sauce that's got orange in there and carrots so it's sweet what we're going to do and that's where the thing comes on the light bulb I think we should do blah blah blah well yeah that sounds good let's try it

29:50Dan:yeah yeah yeah

29:51Sat Bains:because all of a sudden that's the thinking bit is I don't want chefs that I just wrote I want all of them when they've come through the door they were individual characters and yeah different levels of skill when they've left they're very talented chefs anyway i didn't give them that they were passionate they came here they spent the three to four years they worked their nuts off and they've gone to fly in their own stratosphere so i can't take credit for any of them and i won't do that they're already brilliant when they started i just showed them this other path and by showing them to the path was asking questions that they're not normally asked what are the hard obstacles on that other path on the path

30:28Dan:they're on here or yeah when they you show them the other path they go down the least the least

30:32Sat Bains:trodden paths because there's no rules there's no one that's done it for you there's no one that's fucking made it safe there's no one that's gone you know if you do that and do that you'll get that it's like shit i don't know i don't know let's if i don't know how do they know yeah and then we all go on that path together yeah and then oh my god we can get to there yeah and it's all philosophical and it sounds all bit no no i believe in this stuff massively yeah but this is how my creative mind works yeah i you know me and amanda haven't gone down a routine of having a becker um getting a restaurant working for someone else that would drive me fucking mental working for someone else so can we get some new country please oh no you're fuck off yeah yeah it's new country we'll make it work we'll use cash flow we'll be clever with the fucking sales we'll make sure that the business is looking after itself and i think also with with the transparency of running the business with everyone that's worked here i'm honest guys is a bit fucking busy today smelly is we need to fucking push the wines you know we've got a full restaurant we've had a shit fucking Thursday you know you've got to take a certain amount so by being transparent with the workings of a business you're working here with me you can ask me anything you want any time of day chef how do you work out what the gross profit is on selling that dish or how do you work out the costings and I'll work it out this way this way then you've got a bit of knowledge because why am I hiding from here this is your career why can't I give you them little bits of nuggets of information sooner so when I was younger I was 22 someone gave me a formula on a calculator of how to work GPs at and it was the cost price times 100 share by the difference in the percentage of of

32:07Dan:my maths is horrendous and all of a sudden

32:09Sat Bains:you've got a selling price at 70 % and I was like fucking hell so I was costing menus at 22 onwards knowing that the ingredients and all the dish cost that and if you sell it to that price I knew I was hitting my GP so little nuggets like that I would never have been told that if I was working in the kitchen because no one would have known it this was a guy that worked behind a bar who's a manager yes and he said oh this is how we work out Costings and that formula hasn't stayed with me ever since yeah yeah yeah but surely you want to pass all that on it's not just about cooking it's about running a restaurant in tough and good times so the good times come we all know it's all cyclical our industry you'll have these great times where everything's fucking going great you're fully bought and blah blah but again you've always got to have one foot large it's busy what are the business principles

32:56Dan:because that's one of the things about this podcast is as much about the business side

32:59Sat Bains:what are you all like one two three again i haven't got that formulaic look at it i just look at each week and each day and i know that we've got say 130 book this week yeah i know each chair equals x amount of money i've got to make sure that we take that money i know that but it's so instance like for example say the first few checks come in on an evening yeah friday or saturday and there's no wine pairings on it. So it just takes me to say to the major league chief, what's going on? Not hard sell, just making sure that they understand the wine pairings next level. It's going to be fucking brilliant.

33:32Sat Bains:They're going to enjoy it better. Their time here is going to be better. And all of a sudden you see a little surge. So my biggest fear, if I wasn't here, what would happen? If I didn't be that on it. But the idea is you pass that on to you guys that they will notice

33:50Dan:what's going on here the wines aren't selling hey guys mention it all of a sudden the wines start picking up it's always that slow gentle attack all the time

33:56Sat Bains:yeah but the trouble is you stop being like if I didn't do that and we didn't sell hardly any wines that week or that night then the takings are down and I'm thinking shit what happened last week so I believe it's that instant I believe it's that that tiny little nuance of a word say what's going on just triggers the person that up front because I'm not up front they're there front-facing guests and you're coming here hey guys first time with this oh brilliant listen we've got three wine pairings perfect to to go with your food if you're not if you're not if you're driving no problems we've got a non-alcoholic one but offer it my biggest argument right and this is where it comes to business like you've got to allow your guests to spend money with you right got to allow your guests yeah you've got to because you could have a menu at one price and you could have a wine pair at one price and that was it so you did nothing else so your minimum maybe you're going to take is that yeah so we offer three wine pairings at three different levels we offer two menus at different levels we offer an additional course of a shoe far c in game season so by allowing that you're allowing your guests to spend money with you because you're saying yes you this is it but you can also have this and the mentality is i am here anyway it's

35:10Dan:that whole this is where we're getting to behavioral science it's all that choice architecture it's like if you give them give them more more options per and actually a bit of empathy it's like you're here okay you're driving whilst you give you these two i think me and storm went for the full razzle dazzle which was the bollocks yeah i was fucking twisted when i got out of here i ended up in stealth in nottingham because i used to it was just like it was when and you fucking good night and and in some golf bar oh mate it was good fun though um that's fascinating are there any other i know you love rory sutherland and he's been on next level yeah What are some, and we were talking before, like you've done these psychological tricks or not tricks, but like hacks or, you know, one of those things is choice architecture.

35:51Dan:So when you look at our menu now,

35:53Sat Bains:we've got, so for example, I'm going to tell you a little thing. So again, when I look at the industry, I look at what everyone's doing. And it's something I do, a little bit of research on my own, just go on the internet and see, like when we did the a la carte menu, right? So I was noticing that there's, outside of London, there was only three restaurants that did, at two star level, that did an a la carte menu. So everyone's doing tasting. So I'm thinking, if you're doing tasting, I'm doing tasting, the guy in Cambridge doing tasting, the guy in Birmingham is doing tasting, why am I going to you?

36:20Sat Bains:It's a tasting menu format.

36:22Dan:Yeah.

36:22Sat Bains:I'm not getting anything different. As I got older, I've always loved Alucard. I think Alucard is great. It's a little three courses, choice menu. You're not there for three hours. You're there for two. And you can go. A nice bottle of red, blah, blah, see you later. That's going to be, because I've been here 25 years, that's going to be my clientele that have grown up with me. So as they're in their 50s and 60s, Yes.

36:42Dan:They're not wanting the full tasting menu.

36:43Sat Bains:Yes. They might want it once a year as a regular, but two times a year they might want a shorter menu, but they've got a bit more choice and they can go within two hours. So what we did is we introduced it in April last year. So I introduced it on the chef's table and kitchen bench only at the five o 'clock slot. So that meant if you wanted to eat early and you were a young couple with a kid, get back for babysitters, a bit older, eating at five is brilliant because you're not eating too late. Yeah, yeah. You can have your menu. you can be gone by 7, 7.30. We really lay that table at 7.30 but it's tasting menu only.

37:16Sat Bains:So you're getting two hits of the cherry. Genius. But where you're making the loss in the business because everything's gone down you've now hit it with two lots of the cherry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're offering two things.

37:27Dan:Wow.

37:28Sat Bains:And also, Roy will know this, you can never lower your price for the same menu. What you can do is offer a different offering at a different price.

37:37Dan:Yeah.

37:37Sat Bains:so when we used to do a 10 course and a 15 course or a 7 course and a 10 course I looked at everyone in the UK everyone's doing a number

37:47Dan:back in the day when I was like a price or a number of dishes ok yeah why the fucking tell you the number

37:52Sat Bains:of courses for back in the day it used to be menu degustation menu surprise menu gourmand it was a name so I went back to names so we do menu prelude menu overture

38:04Dan:yes

38:05Sat Bains:you don't know how many courses it is so that means when you look at the prelude menu on the left hand side and there's a little box at the bottom with an additional course of the shoe for c but then you look at and it's like that short with a little bit here you look there it's a full page yeah for 45 quid 50 quid difference i'm here anyway so again we sell 90 of the overture which is the bigger menu but because you're offering it the way you're offering it with the right side of the paper it looks more you know opulent yeah it's a no-brainer but you're here anyway there's mate the whole this is like

38:42Dan:the whole allow your customers to spend money but it's how obvious is it though it's what it's not obvious it's not obvious well it is it is but it's not and it's like the whole on the behavioral science thing it's like price anchoring so you put you know rory talks about why they put they sell um rolls royces at yacht shows right because if you've got a yacht you can definitely have millions yeah and as you say because you're here to spend money fuck it i don't want to buy a yacht but I'll have that because it looks cheap it looks cheap but again it's like you know the tasting menu's here but actually come in and again the context is so important it's like you've got a kid they need to be home at 7 or you're a little you've got a babysitter you still want a date night yeah exactly but that is I've never sat across someone who thinks like that to be honest mate and it's genius and then also I just feel like the yeah the you're kind of by having that what's the other one I did the full shebang

39:31Sat Bains:so you did the prelude

39:32Dan:Preljude, yeah.

39:33Sat Bains:So that's like an introduction to RSB.

39:35Dan:The Overture is everything.

39:36Sat Bains:Yes.

39:37Dan:And then by changing... Everyone wants to go to that big one.

39:39Sat Bains:Yes. And what was brilliant is when we did the packages in the room, we call it the triptych package, which is a sum of three things. Triptych. Yeah, so dinner, bed and breakfast. Yes. So it's triptych, three things. This was taken from an art constellation. And... Art constellation, what do you... A triptych is like paintings in three parts. Okay, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we did it like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So by using that word, it was unique to us. so when you say the triptych package at RSB it's going to be dinner bed and breakfast so you're going to have three things it's going to be a set price you're getting a discount on the room guess what it includes a prelude they sit down can we upgrade to the beverage tour 90 % of the grade less than 50 quid per person but because you're offering it at that package it's getting them in at the right price point because they're looking for a bargain because everyone is money's tight for everybody we all know that it's a real shit climates out there yeah wait we can go to rsb fucking our midweek 500 quid dinner bed and breakfast for the two of us yeah once you're here you know what we're gonna upgrade to the overture yeah and we're gonna go for the wine pairing all of a sudden yeah they relate this you've allowed your customers spend money with you what are other ways you've done that because

40:48Dan:i could talk about this for days i love this shit mate it's so interesting things like the

40:51Sat Bains:shoe faster you know we've got a little um little ball of a cabbage with chicken mousse for our our truffle partridge and again it's 35 pounds it's a supplement but again within this our maitre d and the front of house the way i don't want hard sell i hate the idea of shoving it down your throat i think it's fucking rude i don't think restaurants benefit from it you'd feel ripped off it's subtle oh we've got the prelude overture um oh we'll go for the overture but i really want that shoe fancy well i'll tell you what why don't you go prelude share one so you downgrade them but they're still spending extra 35 quid so this is reverse but they're still getting another dish yeah so what about getting people here i know you've got this now massive reputation it's not that it's still hard it's still hard because the way you do it because we've got no like media like mine created by hospitality insiders including the actual

41:50Dan:Don, Marco Pierre White, Eatup gives top bars and restaurants control a new stream of quality paying customers to fill those quiet times. No faff, no upfront

42:00Sat Bains:costs, only upside. Look, if you're in hospitality and you want bums on seats when you need

42:06Dan:the most, please drop the founder pan. You know what's absolutely mental, mate? London is literally the greatest foodie city in the world with so many absolutely banging delish restaurants opening on the reg. I absolutely love it. But look, let's get real. There's lots of times where tables are still sat empty when your favourite spot is silent shrugging.

42:29Sat Bains:One of our boys, he's a head sommelier in a restaurant in Amsterdam called Q. Right. And they've just got the star, him and George. We did a collaboration dinner with them a few months ago, me and John. Mo was one of our boys

42:40Dan:back 10 odd years ago. He works as a young spader.

42:44Sat Bains:Including the absolute Don, Marco Pierre White, Eat Club gives top bars and restaurants control of the new stream of quality paying customers

42:52Dan:to fill those quiet times. No faff, no upfront costs, only upside. Look, if you're in hospitality and you want bums on seats when you need them most, please

43:03Sat Bains:drop the founder pan. You know what's absolutely mental mate?

43:07Dan:London is literally the greatest foodie city in the world with so many absolutely banging delish restaurants opening on the reg. I absolutely love it. But look, let's get real. There's lots of times where tables are still sat empty. When your favourite spot is silently struggling. And look, every single table counts. Everyone needs solutions and they need solutions very fast. And that, my friends, is where EatClub comes in. EatClub is a profitability tool. Created by hospitality insiders, including the absolute Don, Marco Pierre White.

43:42Sat Bains:Eatcub gives top bars and restaurants control of the new stream of quality paying customers to fill those quiet times. No fan, no upfront costs, only upside.

43:52Dan:Look, if you're in hospitality and you want bums on seats when you need them most, please drop the founder Pan or the VP of the UK, Liz, both absolute legends. Drop them an email. Fillmytables at eatcub.co.uk. Fillmytables at eatcub.co.uk. That will get you straight through to your name. because it's hell. Yeah, it's hell. Let's turn those energy tables into perfect.

44:15Sat Bains:She had an art degree. So she was my muse for years because she worked here for 10 years. Yeah. And we used to do so many creative things together. It was brilliant. So we wanted a unique wine list. There's a wine list you can have, which is traditional for the ones that want the list. But this is a creativity where you say, it's an emotion. So if you say something like rich and opulent in wines, it's going to be the burgundies, it's going to be the white burgundies, the Chalamet whatever it is the beautiful the creamier wines so you have a mood so as you flick through the wine list you go through crispy clean right through to fruit driven right through to creamy right through to light red mysterious then through dark and dirty almost but as you know your style of red you will start oh my god look at that it's got a pricing on it but the idea is it's a flow so it's like a feeling

45:05Dan:that's it because obviously as you say the crisper wines and again I'll put this on the screen The colours are all different. The colours are all different. So it's like this.

45:12Sat Bains:So Hannah did it all and she got it to a T. So the idea is as you're reading a wine list, instead of looking at a list, we all do, but how do you make it unique for RSP? How do you make it that, how do you add that creative element?

45:23Dan:You said you guys did a lot of creative things. What were some of those other things you did?

45:27Sat Bains:Well, even the menu, I'll show you later. We've stopped doing the doodles now on the menu. So the idea is you'd get a menu, which was like the 15 or the 10 course, and each dish had a doodle on it, which I drew. And then that will give you almost an evocative idea what it's going to look like but a sketch and then when you look at oh my god that's the dish so it's trying to connect the artistic creative aspect to the literal where you're going oh my god and then but then you're still trying to make sure that the dish itself over exceeds because your expectation is high so what you've got to think is like yeah i can't wait for that that the beef cheek or whatever it is with the oysters whatever it is but then when you eat it You go, fuck me.

46:06Sat Bains:How do you get so much flavour into something like that? Because all I've got from you as a guest is your anticipation and expectation.

46:13Dan:Yeah.

46:13Sat Bains:If you've not eaten it before, you're only going to search your history of where you've had that dish or something similar before. How do I exceed it? I've got to make it more punchy, seasoned perfectly, really exciting to eat, but depth, layers and layers and layers of flavour. You go, fuck, I've had this before, but never like this.

46:30Dan:Yes.

46:31Sat Bains:And that's the skill of the chef. Of the chefs. Yes. How do we get it to something so small be so intense and that way the skills of cooking comes into it? Because I'm competing with every other restaurant in the world, aren't I? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when the guest walks in here, it doesn't matter to them what we're doing in there. They want to be blown away. So the guests that we get are true travelling foodies per se.

46:58Dan:Yeah.

46:59Sat Bains:But why else would you come here? It's a fucking shithole.

47:04Dan:it's so good but i don't know if it adds it adds to the juxtaposition of it because i feel like it's what i can't describe like i've been it's just it was just it is all those things you've said it's just wild and it's this i don't know this it's that it's that feeling there's an energy there's an energy i think describing it as an organism that you sort of just keep moving keep kind of like just pushing it just tweaking it just keep i think like keep chipping away at it. So what is, so I believe that you can become more creative. Yeah. I really believe that. So you know, I say I write a lot, I write every day.

47:33Dan:Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like almost, I know you go gym, talk motherfucker, right?

47:37Sat Bains:Yeah, yeah.

47:37Dan:But you know like, say you're doing bench press, Yes. And you do like, say you get to like 10 rounds Yes. And you're fucked.

47:43Sat Bains:Yeah.

47:43Dan:And then you do, you've got a spotter who helps it up. And then you do a bit of a drop set and you just, it's almost like that progressive overload. What would you say that is in creativity? Like how do you push your guys?

47:57Sat Bains:Whereas I would do, say, max weights, wherever they were, bench press, and you could smash it, and you were solid, and you could do it clean form. Again, technique driven. You don't want to rock. You want to make sure everything's stable. You're grounded. And you did a beautiful rep. But as you get older, you don't need to do the heavy weight. You just need to perfect your technique. So as you do less reps or less weight, do it stricter. Have a little rest at the bottom. Squeeze out. so you're tweaking your mental state with the training but also with the work so your creativity doesn't have to be like fucking wild now you're almost honing it in to say i really need to be put a lot more creativity into that area because i think the customer's experience could be better so then amanda will come into that because that's her forte but then it's again going back to expectation because you've got a creative mind that means you've got to be fucking wild it means you can then hone it to a certain dish a certain style a certain minute a certain season a certain element of a dish a certain nuance like the pizza yeah yeah that was bankrupt but yeah but again it's a it's an ideology that's born from trying to be uniquely different not for the sake of it to give you something gustatory that say fuck me you don't believe this right Like, half the way through the meal, they take you out to this little pizza hut, you get a glass of champagne, and this pizza's cooked down a minute to order by this brilliant Anna, or one of the guys, and you're just sitting there, what the fuck's happening here?

49:27Sat Bains:I've stretched my legs, I'm not sitting at the table three hours, I've had a bit of a rest, I've walked around.

49:33Dan:What I liked about that is there was another couple, I don't know if that was even better, but there were two of us, so then we were discussing the meal. Exactly. That adds to the magic, that adds to the connection.

49:41Sat Bains:Because it's connection. It's connection. Because restaurants were always about connection.

49:44Dan:Yes. mate it's so the way you think the way you think is so genius

49:48Sat Bains:but it's not genius it's not having the clouded judgement of having a mentor because you're free

49:57Dan:you can think freely

49:59Sat Bains:and I think that's probably my biggest attribute because I was allowed freedom and we've built this business on freedom because we can do whatever we want whenever we want there's no one telling us what we can or can't do imagine that and imagine a business where it's tough out there I'm not going to lie you know that but you still have freedom you're not you know you haven't got that shackles on saying oh I really want to do that but I'm held back because I don't know how I'm going to pass it through the board

50:26Dan:yeah oh god yeah fuck that you'd be screwed because that's why with this because I work for a company we had a board you can do what you want I was like do whatever the fuck I want when I want I don't want investors I don't want any of these things I'd rather make less dough but I can do whatever the fuck I want

50:40Sat Bains:that's the key right you've hit on the head we run this business on a model where we we don't need a lot of money from me and amenda yeah the reinvestment is crucial and the staff needs to get paid really well and we do the four day week since 2015 yes you would have lost some money but the investment was so good that return was greater yeah so they are loyal they stay with you three years they grow with you you put them through the exams through the w sets you see them grow you see them fly so i've always said if you're ever going to leave us never go sideways or down always go up so I'll help you so he's sat I've been here three years I'm like Charlie one of my boys he's back now he goes oh chef I've been here three years I really want to he went to Bennu and that was a text to a friend of mine and he was there a year 18 months then he went to Amsterdam now he's back as a senior but to see him grow as an 18 year old when he started and now he's got all that beautiful knowledge of travelling experiences now he's an asset and now he's part of the senior team that he's running the kitchen with us, that's a joy to watch.

51:46Sat Bains:You know, to see people flourish and grow as youngsters that have a dream of one day hopefully having their own restaurant. But this is a blank canvas to them because they can ask me what they want. They can ask me, oh, chef, how do you get the deals that you do? You know, how do you work on supplier run? So when you say deals, as in? See, I love deals. Don't? I love fucking deals. I love dealing with suppliers. I like to do barter.

52:09Dan:Yeah.

52:09Sat Bains:Because I'm from that era.

52:11Dan:Yeah.

52:11Sat Bains:So if something's costing me, say I'm going to get spring lamb and it's like£21 a kilo for the loin, I'll say, okay, I'll take 100 kilos. I'm going to prep it all, get it beautifully sealed in the freezer or wherever I'm going to put it. For that season, I'll fix the price.

52:26Dan:Yeah.

52:26Sat Bains:So I'll get£19 a kilo. But I guarantee I'm going to take 100 kilos. Go on then. I'll say fucking£2 a kilo. That's massive. Yes. You know, caviar. I don't use caviar now. Why? Because it's the biggest scam. Go on. in the fucking world, right? It's all farmed, which we know has to be legally. It's all probably from the same place in China. But it's on every fucking menu. It is so overrated. I've banned caviar since March. And I'm not using it. Because it's no longer... I will use it again when it becomes the star of the show. Now every dish is a beautiful dish. Say you've got some beautiful asparagus.

53:04Sat Bains:That should be the star. Now you had a big dollop of caviar. you've lost the identity of the asparagus and that's now become second rate. The star of the show was asparagus. You've just smothered it in caviar then they're like, oh yeah, that was nice, I'll carry on it in bollocks. But every restaurant's using so much of it. It's like truffle. So I banned truffle and caviar in March so I'm not using it until it's in its peak. Why would you not use truffle? Because, again, speaking to a legend like Pierre Kaufman and I had a brilliant chat with him one afternoon like a chef when you were like in the kitchen and even now when is the best time for truffle it goes white truffle now november december white truffle black truffle january some like what exactly you don't use it until that's when it says it's peak it's ripest it's available from october november and they're on all menus but again going back to you know i've got brilliant suppliers like wiltshire truffles and n25 caviar i'm not stagging them off but they have an obligation to tell us when they say it's peak so if you're buying it out of peak you're buying an inferior product just to put on the menu and then i'm taking the piss out of you as a guest because i'm not giving you the best truffle when i put it on in january they'll be the best truffles i could have afforded at the best quality you're going to have it as a celebration of truffle how obvious is that you wouldn't serve shit fish out of season why would i do that with the truffles it's um

54:35Dan:i love that because also what i what i'm picking up from you as we're getting deeper into this conversation is you've got all this wonderful creative freedom energy generosity but then the other side is this sort of hustle working class deals like what have you and actually like Rory Southern says, I know, the best MBA is either being a kitchen porter or working in a newsagent. I know you worked in newsagents. Dad had newsagents. Yeah, exactly. And the reason he says this is back to, you know, back to the thing, actually I was speaking to... What's MDA? MBA? MBA is like a fucking wanky business.

55:08Dan:You know, like basically what cunts go on. Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Sorry. But yeah, but I'll take that out. But it's been, everyone's gone MBA. So you do them at Oxford. Basically, it's after university, you go on MBA. It's meant to teach you about everything about business. Everything. So you do it and then you basically go and it's just a wanky thing, basically. The reason Rory says kitchen porter or news agents is because so often in business you see things in silos.

55:33Sat Bains:Yes.

55:33Dan:So it's like, I just do accounts or I just do marketing or I just do supply chain or I just do... They don't talk to each other.

55:40Sat Bains:Yeah, they don't. But when you're in a newsagent growing up, you see everything. But it's like this. Because this is ours, you see everything. Yeah. so it's like the two biggest areas of a business in a restaurant is the phone so calls coming in yeah and the booking system and bills going out so if you can control them too meals or bills

56:02Dan:bills bills going out yeah

56:03Sat Bains:so for example say I'm in charge of purchasing at the restaurant so what I do is I've worked out for each cover how much we've got to spend on you yeah that's your limit for that day for that week so if we've got 100 covers and say it's like 20 quid just let's make it up you've got what's that 100 people 20 quid a head what's that 2 grand whatever it is yeah yeah yeah my mask yeah yeah yeah that's your limit so I'll give John a budget got 140 but 150 bucks this week your budget's 10 pound a head that's what you got so his goal now because it's he's a what the word what's the word when you're when you're competitive he wants to go under

56:42Dan:yes

56:43Sat Bains:he don't want to hit the target yeah yeah yeah he's not giving him a target Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Genius. Calls coming in, we don't have calls coming in because everything's online. Calls coming in is where you lose and get most of your bookings. So for example, someone rings, like you'll ring in the restaurant. Hi, like a table, please. Sorry, fully booked. Oh, I got it. Nah, sorry, mate. Boom. What the fuck's that about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The reason you rang was because you want a table. So I've got to give you a table when you haven't, we haven't got your table you want, but I've got to give you opportunities for other tables.

57:13Sat Bains:Allow them to spend money. Yes.

57:15Dan:Wow.

57:15Sat Bains:I'll tell you what, I haven't got a Saturday night, but I've just got a table this Saturday night, just come available. But I can do it at two o 'clock. I'll take it. How obvious is it? It's so obvious.

57:28Dan:No, no, it's... I never lost a sale. It's uncommon common sense. That's a good one. I like that. I've used that before. Yeah, I think uncommon common sense. Because you've sold the table.

57:36Sat Bains:Yeah. It's no good ringing someone saying, I really want to, you know, and that's where arrogance comes in. That's where successful restaurants get complacent, going back to complacency, because they think, well, fully bought, mate, fully bought. Yeah, fucker, twat, sick head, fully bought. Hang on, I want to spend money with you, you fucker.

57:51Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:52Sat Bains:You just said no. And that's what happens with, there's a thing called the reception, is it could be a dentist, doctors, or a restaurant. They think they run the fucking restaurant. Yes. And then what they do, they do that. Hi, I'd like to book a fucking filling. I want to book a dentist appointment. Sorry, fully bought. When's that? Three months. I know, if the fucker that owned that place answered that, he would squeeze me in because that's fucking 300 quid. The power they think they've got. So they need all retraining.

58:22Dan:How would you retrain? Because this is a really important thing.

58:25Sat Bains:See, the way you can go... Okay, fine.

58:27Dan:Another thing, again, because it's only because, like, another thing Rory has said is, why have we lost the ability for people to pick up the phone?

58:34Sat Bains:Because they're fucking... And Amazon, you know,

58:36Dan:Amazon, you can actually still pick up the blower.

58:38Sat Bains:Yeah, I know.

58:38Dan:Which is fucking wild. But, like, the other day I got stuck on, it's just the most infuriating thing being stuck and then obviously some dwee picks up the phone and you know it just but it's not

58:49Sat Bains:they're so far removed from the business owner's model and the business owner is in business because he wants to take money create a business make profit pay the buyers pay staff it's the basic necessity right but you ring a doctor's surgeon or a fucking dentist or a restaurant and the restaurant's busy and you ring them and say oh, you're like, reel our table for Thursday, please, next week. Almost like they're pissing themselves, laughing at you. I'm sorry, fully booked. Have you got anything now? Sorry, thanks. Hang on, we'll start. I want to spend money with you. Give me an opportunity that's a different day, that's as close to me becoming one of your clients and taking my money off me.

59:30Dan:Yeah.

59:30Sat Bains:I'm not ringing you because I want to see how the fucking weather is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think this is so infuriating when I see it and me and Amanda They always use the same terminology, doctor's receptionist, dentist receptionist. That's the mentality because they're so far removed. So yes, one way is you could give incentives, but fuck incentives, that's their fucking job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pay them well. Yeah. Look after them. Tell them how important that call is.

59:55Dan:Yeah.

59:55Sat Bains:And then the second part of that is the spending of the money. All these guys are accountable for anything they spend. Why are you doing that? So all them as an account, I get to sign off, see what they bought. before I say yes. They're not allowed any credit cards because I've got it, so I'll give them a credit card if they want to buy anything. So you're controlling the expenditures and you're controlling the calls coming in. So money in, money out. How is the booking,

1:00:21Dan:the online systems now, how has that changed things for good, bad and ugly?

1:00:27Sat Bains:In fairness, being brutally honest, you probably want a bit of both. Yep. We open the office from 10 till 4. that's for someone wanting a query yeah we don't take the credit cards over the phone because we want to stay away from that so there has to be done online so there's a level of security because i don't want that on my head yeah so you will have to book online with your card yeah 50 pound deposit nothing crazy but that just gives the security to the guests and the security to us that no rogue member of staff is taking credit cards over the phone you know i mean yeah yeah yeah but the idea is you want a bit of both you want someone that's fed up on the internet can't get through hey i'm really struggling we're talking for it oh thank god thank you again

1:01:07Dan:that opens up the another thing as well is um you know as you said one allowing people to spend money but opening up who's going to spend the money so if you've got an old couple they want to get on the blower yeah some young i don't know how to use the internet my nana was trying to book here she doesn't know what the fucking ipad is do you know i mean it takes about 10 minutes

1:01:26Sat Bains:that someone's there to help them out yes to walk them through it yes um but everything's gone that way but if you look at it from a busy place you know i'll still ring restaurants and a lot of it might be on open table or wherever it's from but you can still get through so you've got a table next next thursday and and the really busy ones i find are the ones that are sometimes the most snootiest because they're just so complacent so you've almost got to like that that guest is bringing some fucking fuel and money to your business to keep it going Keep the organism moving. Yes. Yes.

1:01:59Dan:Mate, this is sick. So back to the news agents. Yes. And your old man. What was your relationship with him growing up?

1:02:05Sat Bains:Yeah, it was hard. Very hard. I had a really hard upbringing. I was working from the age of like 10, 8, 9, 10, whatever it was in the shops. And I can't knock it. It gave me a work ethic. That was brutal. You know, I started, I would go to the shop in the mornings, do the paper rounds with him, do the rounds. How many shops did he have? Mostly I had was three. Yeah. But the one I used to work at was the main one.

1:02:25Dan:Yeah.

1:02:25Sat Bains:and then I'll do paper round, go to school, come back up, lunch, relieve my mum so she can have a break, have my dinner, go to school, back to the shop, finish at 10. So I used to do paper round at night as well. So it was something from the age of 11 to 16. Don't begrudge it, brilliant work ethic, but he was a hustler. He was absolutely on the ball. He knew in the shot what everything was and he had a really sharp eye. and I used to see deals all the time like guys coming in for cans of beer didn't have the money but you're charging a bit extra next time they came sell single cigarettes at 10p each so you're getting like an extra quid a pack so you know I kind of grew up with all that kind of around me yeah and I think with restaurants so the way I look at it right you've got a restaurant I've got a restaurant we're doing a similar amount of covers You want my business as a...

1:03:21Sat Bains:The butcher's here. He wants our business.

1:03:25Dan:Sorry, we're both... The butcher's there, we're both competing.

1:03:27Sat Bains:We both compete for... We both use him. Okay, yeah, sure. But I'll say to him, okay, I want to use this much beef this year. I want a fixed price. You're just buying every week. So I'm already an advantage, aren't I? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've looked at it long term as a business. I've looked at him like me. How would I want... If I had a guest, imagine this, right? if I had a guest and say I'm going to spend five grand with you a year can you offer me anything in advance yeah I'll give you one meal free because I've guaranteed five grand innit

1:03:58Dan:yeah yeah yeah it's like a little no but mate

1:04:01Sat Bains:it's getting this

1:04:03Dan:we've gone into the creativity's up here but the underworld is all this this beautiful hustle

1:04:07Sat Bains:the reality is the business without the business you've got nothing the creativity's great but not on its own you need them to feed off each other you need the money coming in to fuel the creativity and you need the creativity that fuel the money coming in yeah so it's completely cyclical what other lessons did

1:04:22Dan:you take from the news agents a la like the it's the nba work it was just constant work cash and carries and you know also i thought you can work very hard at a very young age it's not going to kill you yeah and it's and it's about applying yourself you know i had no choice i couldn't go

1:04:40Sat Bains:i'm not going it's your family i had no choice and i always remember this is a really this is a this is probably the hardest reality I've learned but the most beautiful so I worked for one month solid because my dad went to India so me and my mum would open the shop I looked after it went to school did that whatever for a whole month he came back and bought me a bike so I was like oh my god Christmas night I've got a bike and he goes don't get too happy I've sacked two paper lads you're now doing their run so the joy of the bike was so great but then it was whipped out from under you because now I'm on wheels I can do more work so we save money on two paper lads because I never got paid so you think about that logic it's genius isn't it when you think about it yeah yeah yeah 100 % I'm family you don't get paid you're the son that's your dad that's your mum you've got three sisters and you work in a shop but I thought fucking hell I've got a bike I've always wanted a bike it's a rally from Nottingham

1:05:41Dan:That's the prime example of you as a kid. Creativity feeds the business. Business feeds the creativity.

1:05:45Sat Bains:Yeah. Fucking genius. So it's probably a lesson I learnt very young without knowing. Yeah. But then when I hustle with caviar, you know, I'll hustle. Back in the day, I'll say, listen, I'm going to buy 50 kilos off this, 100 kilos this year. I want a fixed price. And, you know, they'll say, yeah, okay, but don't tell anyone else. Of course I'm not going to tell anyone else. I'm the benefactor.

1:06:04Dan:You know what I mean? So true. Yeah, it's so true.

1:06:07Sat Bains:You can probably not do it as much, but there is ways, you know, and I'll also, I'll barter with three or four different fish supplies for the same fish. You know, I'm getting some turbots, one's 39, one's 32, one's fucking 29. I've got to then look at the quality of each one. Is that guy reputable? Is that one better? And then probably go for the middle one because I know it's going to be guaranteed. But the boys, because the thing is that you don't learn as a young chef is you've got buying power. Yeah. You don't know yet. Because you just times what you spent that week times 52 or 48, that's your budget with that fishmonger and you're going to say you know i'm going to spend quite a bit of money with you there's got to be something you can shave off here we're all in business

1:06:49Dan:there's nothing wrong with bartering mate so fascinating that the sort of the business side what else have you learned any other principles you've learned about hustle the subtle art of

1:06:58Sat Bains:hustle because i think there's i think hustling is it's probably innate in everything we do like you know when we looked at the four-day week was perfect example so i worked out me and amanda work talent it's like we're all looking for the same staff looking for the same same staff yeah we're in this situation where we're all doing this five-day week we're all looking for the same members of team to join us as that restaurant that star one star three star so there's a pool of talent but we're all not offering anything different we're just saying do you want to work for us and i hate that whole fucking concept of yeah they'll work for you because it's all bollocks you've got to offer them something you've got to offer incentive and the incentive was we are going to open a four-day week i'm gonna offer you a top salary and you are going to have three days off all of a sudden we'd never have to look for staff again for that period for that three five years because what they realize is i can do five days a week there and i'm getting something similar to what i'm doing for four days but i've got three days off so this is where psychology kicks in back in the day you could do a four-day week but the restaurant could open six days yeah say you're on the fish right and it's your day off yep you know someone's coming in tomorrow to do your section to cover you and then you're coming back in two days time first thing you do on your day off your last day off is about three o 'clock in the afternoon say you're with your wife your kids or whatever it is you start worrying about tomorrow like has he made me that fish sauce i don't know i'm gonna text him chief what we've in tomorrow have you made that fish sauce what's my mise en place this tomorrow so you're no longer off you are mentally at work now while you're off by closing there's no one can do anything you finish on a saturday night you're not back till wednesday no one's on your section no one's running your prep kitchen you have now got complete freedom in your mind that you're not going back till wednesday so no one's on your section so psychologically you're free that's

1:09:02Dan:Yeah, I was going to say, because you may be, and that's so true, like physically free versus psychologically free.

1:09:07Sat Bains:Because you're halfway through your day off, your second day off, you're already thinking about work tomorrow. So what you tend to do is, shit, I better text him to see whoever's on my section. What's in tomorrow? What do I need to do? What's my prep list? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've already got anxiety.

1:09:21Dan:You're not getting a break.

1:09:22Sat Bains:No, of course you're not.

1:09:23Dan:But that means your two days now is one and a half. So you almost look at the competitor set and say, right, that's what these guys are doing.

1:09:30Sat Bains:We're on the same boat. we've all got the same supplies, we've all got the same you know methodology of running a business no we haven't, we haven't I've got friends that have got multi-million pound backers they don't give a fuck, because they haven't got to worry about it but you know what I mean, that's how it is I think being slightly afraid each week walking into work, not knowing what's going to happen keeps you on your toes I think you need that nervous energy to run a business, because without it again, the words we keep using complacency comfortable they're okay in small doses but you start utilising them a lot your nervous energy disappears and then you lose the edge the edge is fucking hell I don't know

1:10:15Dan:how we're going to get through this really the excitement of it as well it's exciting but I think

1:10:20Sat Bains:nervous energy is a good word

1:10:21Dan:that's what I'm saying because I think nerves and excitement are kind of two sides of the same coin and you can flicker between the two it's interesting so we Storm and I when we came up here before and we were doing all our planning for next year and we basically looked at our p &l that we'd done and it was like fucking squeaky bum time right it was like red all the clients and sponsors we'd lost and we were thinking fucking that was kind of and you know what we're talking about these when i get on shortly is when you look back i hadn't looked at that since yeah a year ago and i was thinking oh my god like that was a roller coaster going down and but that nervous energy was like right we need to sort this out and then you know we end up getting doing a deal with uber eats so it's just like it comes out of but that energy and

1:10:59Sat Bains:that i think it's out there in the ether it is and that ether then hears it and it gives it your back because because you've put it out there you've put your nervous energy out there and it gives it back i think it gives it back okay so i believe that i really yeah i believe so i want to

1:11:14Dan:talk about creativity and where it comes from have you heard of rick rubin he's a music producer yeah yeah he's a fucking g like he did red hot chili peppers um adele let's not ever amazing and his whole thing, he's got a book called The Creative Being or something. And it's all these little parables about how to be creative. And it's beautiful. But one of the things he says, and it kind of does link to the... Actually, does electricity go through the pylons? That's a really stupid thing to say. Yeah, okay. But he basically says, like, creativity is like this electric force, right? And it's a bit like, you know the frequency of when back in the day when you're trying to tune into the radio, it's like...

1:11:52Dan:And you tune in. and he basically says there's this energy and fucking force all around us and the job is to basically open yourself up to allow the creativity to come through for you do you believe you go to creativity or it kind of comes to you like how does that how do you think about it it's in the

1:12:09Sat Bains:ether i think it's there yeah you can probably go into it and out of it as you please yeah sometimes you're at a mental block and you know that it's going to be all right because you know that eventually you'll get to the right place yeah so you're trying to think if there's a sticking point of the business or a dish or whatever i do know that in a matter of time i don't know how long that time is you'll find the solution so that's probably come with time over over the years yeah so whereas before i was really desperate to think of that creative gene or whatever you want to call it it's like i've got to think out of the box got down the box where that's no longer there it's it'll it'll come yeah it'll come back it'll work itself out because you're thinking in that vein it almost like bleeds into it then just comes back yes so it's a different feeling from for myself than the frequency it's more um it's probably just thinking out of the box it's thinking differently so hence me doing all my research is why is everyone following this path why is everyone doing the no ala car why is everyone um not thinking of changing the menu from seven and ten course why is everybody not letting allowing the guests to spend money with them so when you start collating all of that information it's a lot of it's what is why why are they why are they not yeah it's almost like you study where why everyone's zigging and then you zag and it's yeah it's almost like why the sheep analogy is the one that's most in Fury is why is everyone just followed that why does everyone just do that why doesn't someone open like in Nottingham we've got another restaurant one of our boys he's got the same Michelin style restaurant but he should open when we're closed

1:13:55Dan:yeah yeah yeah yeah

1:13:57Sat Bains:he should open Wednesday to Monday because we're closed Sunday Monday Tuesday he should open Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday mate it's it's uncommon common sense mate but like it's that's your but here's your business model. When we're open, let's not compete. You open and you open. I'll open when we open and we hit the whole seven day market. But you can't tell anyone that because they think you're, they don't know what you're talking about because it's like, well, no fucking hell, Saturday night's business night. Well, make Thursday night a business night. Do you know what I mean?

1:14:28Dan:Yeah, mate, mate, it's mad. Let's pull on that thread a bit longer. Are there anything else you think, again, sort of that zig versus zag thing, when you just look at what's going on and then you're like, right, I'm just going to go and do something completely different. it doesn't have to be about the food it could be yeah anything really it's like yeah so so we don't

1:14:44Sat Bains:open lunches we only open saturday lunch and again trying to concentrate where the business can make the revenue it's like why be a busy fool so instead opening wednesday thursday friday so we all open now chef's table and kitchen bench thursday friday lunch which we used to back in the day and what that does it capitalizes on a really good market for small table we're here anyway they can spend money with us anyway yes so it's a no i'm gonna get all the staffing yeah i just opened it for an exclusive table they feel special because it's only for them the boys and the girls look after them in the kitchen and the sommelier you feel like a million dollars because you've got your own private table in the kitchen and it's a cost of premium but that means we're not killing ourselves trying to do 30 covers for whatever it is for an a la carte menu on a Saturday Saturday's the only day we open lunch and it's again we offer the a la carte on a Saturday again for them that want it but again majority probably go for the tasting menu but again you're you're it's looking also at your access points what is your accessibility route in so now I said his accessibility route is 145 pounds but then we twisted it again now our accessibility route is 50 pounds ahead for breakfast so a few months ago we now open for breakfast for three tables

1:16:06Dan:mate it's the other the pareto principle which is like us this is really interesting it's like eight it's the 80 20 rules it's like 80 of your revenue or happy happiness comes from 20 of your activities okay so like oftentimes you'll probably be people won't even realize but they'll wear like 20 % of their clothes, 80%. Yeah, I know that one. Yeah, I know that one. Yeah, and it's the same with making money. It's like this, I'll send you, I'll send you really fucking interesting. And you basically look at your business and there's almost a long tail of, as you said, being a busy fool.

1:16:37Sat Bains:Yeah.

1:16:38Dan:And I get so excited by new stuff and that's kind of what we've been doing. We're like, why the fuck are we doing that, mate? It's amazing. At one point I was like, right, I'm going to create this thing where we produce hundreds of other podcasts for other people. And then Storm was like to me, he was like, why would you do that? Because that stops me having this conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I was looking at the money that was coming in. It was literally fuck all. Yeah. And what we're trying to do is like sever the tail of the snake. And I suppose that's what you're doing. It's like three tables for breakfast, 50 quid.

1:17:07Sat Bains:Yeah, but guess what? And that monster brewery. But guess what? That's 47 grand a year. Yes. For no extra revenue on staffing, a little bit of ingredients. But you've nearly made 50 ,000 on your bottom line. Yeah. for fuck all

1:17:23Dan:and then you can probably upsell them if the experience is really great.

1:17:25Sat Bains:And then they can have champagne, they can have Bloody Marys. Yeah. So the cost for breakfast is£50 there is add-ons once you're here that's up to you. If you're driving, you can have a coffee, unlimited. But the point is, you're looking at your business from a really again, looking at it from an opportunity point of view, it's like breakfast is like, now the entry level now for a two star restaurant, it's£50 I can go for a two Michelin star breakfast and it's expensive but it's world class and it's two courses you're going to have your starter then your main you're going to have whatever you want and you're sitting in this lovely environment you're being looked at by the brilliant team and you've got these three tables and we had a table six and a two on Sunday that booked in externally so we can do seven bedrooms that's 14 covers already so there's your seven tables gone we've got 11 tables in here so we can do four but we just keep it at three so there you go you've got your fucking extra revenue for no extra cost but you're offering something unique that nottinghamshire hasn't got yes or the closest one to is if you look at even further where's the nearest two-star hotel it was le manoir yes there's nowhere else the nearest north is andrew fairlie's yes there's nowhere else there's a mate it's mad like i love

1:18:42Dan:doing these because you just unearth all these unexpected things but there's a real like business um there's like an mba here like i don't know the business bit is the one that keeps me the

1:18:52Sat Bains:most aggressively active yep the kitchen bit's easy that's the creative the business bit is the one that if i take my foot off this this is the one i'll shit myself going fucking i never saw that why didn't i see it why the fuck am i sitting here waiting for this shit to happen when everyone else is doing the same i've got to attack i've got to change i've got to move i've got to pivot i've got to do something because it's not working.

1:19:14Dan:Yeah.

1:19:14Sat Bains:As soon as you get to that point, things start, ideas, and we brainstorm with the guys. Okay, guys, what are we going to do?

1:19:20Dan:What are some of those monsters that just came out of nowhere?

1:19:22Sat Bains:I think the Alucard. We haven't done Alucard in 15 years.

1:19:25Dan:Yeah.

1:19:25Sat Bains:We haven't done it.

1:19:26Dan:No, but I mean the monsters that you like, that you came...

1:19:29Sat Bains:Well, you know, when business is shit and you fucking, you look at what happened. I noticed business dropped off after the Ukraine war. I can look at my figures from 2007, I've still got all my Excel sheets. And I fill them in every week. And I fill in the covers and i fill in how many covers each each section how many three quarters and i do that religiously every wednesday from the following week and that keeps me on my toes of what's happening so then i looked at the drop and i noticed the drop covid as you know was a honeymoon period and then the the war kicked in the the energy crisis kicked in everyone shit themselves we're never recovered restaurants never recovered so what you're thinking okay there's less people out there they're still coming but how can we take more revenue and these are the things that keeps me awake to think like to give you an example right you can't just put the price on it's shit people go fucking 50 quid a head more so what you do is you go here's your seven course here's your 10 i'm gonna rename them add a couple extra courses put more 50 quid not one person glitched that would generate 140 ,000 a year

1:20:40Dan:and that was just the renaming genius

1:20:44Sat Bains:but it's not genius it's being proactive in a very hard environment because I can't put the price up 100 quid ahead because people will they won't pay there's a limit what you can charge for the value and the perception and the preconceived idea of how much it's worth and that's why I think people have got to feel value for money hence as you know what we do here the course in the garden the last one in the kitchen having the cigar hut afterwards if you want to drink you don't have to have a cigar you can have a drink in there afterwards with a coffee so you've made it more of an escapism so there's actually lots of things to do here rather than just sit at a table for three hours and then go so you've made it an adventure i wanted on that note i want to talk

1:21:30Dan:about the systems of sort of the magic. So I went out, had a cigarette, Andre, to the cigar hut. And obviously I've had my, like, I had a couple of beers and sat out there, fucking bang, the wine had come out. I was, I'm going to go for a cig. And then he walks me to the hut. He's like, oh, do you like, I do. He's like, do you like 90s old school hip hop? And I was like, I fucking love like Wu-Tang Clan, all that stuff. And he was like, oh, you look like that. and then suddenly out of the blue, Biggie Smalls comes on. And I'm having a sig, like I'm a G and I'm in this hut and it was just like the sickest thing ever.

1:22:06Dan:It's crazy, isn't it? But I know, you know, I've sat in the kitchen this morning, like there's a lot of sort of systems behind the scenes that facilitate this sort of magic. You know, you've got sort of cameras where you can see what's going on. What are some of those things that, like almost if we want to go backstage, I feel like this is a theatre, as you said. What backstage, what are the things that people won't notice to create that?

1:22:27Sat Bains:It's difficult, you know, because they're all being amassed over a long period of time. With you. So they're tweaks. They're tiny little tweaks over a long period of time. And the tweaks are going to be significant enough that it's the customer's expectation that you're addressing. It's like when you walk in now to the restaurant, into the bar, and to the front door, there used to be, and we look back and it's like, what the fuck were we doing? And it's just probably because of the way we were. you'd open the door the opposite way and it would straight onto this fucking, like a high bench with a book on it.

1:23:06Sat Bains:So there was like a barrier. What do you mean? So wait, so you walked... As you walked in the front door. Yeah, yeah. It used to open the other way. So the door would open almost facing the toilet. Yes. And then there would be this block of wood in front of you, which was like a, whatever it was, like a fucking desk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With a book on it, it's like, hi, can we help? so madame's been looking at us just that is shit like it was been there for whatever and it was purposeful you used to have a phone on there you'd have a little book on there when we stick bookings on the by phone yeah so when we stopped taking bookings by phone she goes it's just so shit because we want the experience to be if you're staying over especially if you know when you go on a holiday and you're going to a resort and you go they take your bags they sit you down they give you a drink and then you fill in a little form and they say hey welcome to the restaurant here's a little drink on us but then the door now opens the opposite way so it's open yes you're opening to the restaurant yes and she made that lovely little desk so when you look at it it's lower you sit down someone's there to greet you there's a bell so if you're there table two this is for the guests staying over yep you press the bell someone comes and takes your bags to your room this is Mr.

1:24:16Sat Bains:and Mrs. Jones so these kind of tiny little journeys because Amanda loves role playing the restaurant scenario of guests coming in one's a bit awkward how we're going to deal with it so she plays that a lot to make sure that they get used to crazy questions or crazy requests and there's things we will do and things we won't so example if you check in check-ins at four the leeway is half three anything before that we're not ready we've got a hoover we've got a clean yeah so you're coming into a half set theater yeah so there's options here you go oh how are you going to deal with that guest walks in it's five plus three we're not ready for another hour hey guys how you doing oh can i just drop my bags off yes you can but we're not ready uh so you've got to you'll deal with that scenario right so it's how you deal with it so you say of course you can but i'll tell you what you can either sit in the hut and get your drink or why don't you nip nip into town and get your taxi and check-ins from four o 'clock you can get about a quarter to so you've addressed all their words they're looking for say why can't we come here now why can't we get here it's three o 'clock we've travelled three hours because what you don't want is to upset someone that's on the way to have an experience with you so you've got to match their expectations with information and the information has to be given in a nice clean way so there's no misinterpretation

1:25:36Dan:because if you came

1:25:37Sat Bains:and you came with your missus and you've been excited to come and you've been years ago and you love it here but you've missed on your confirmation check-ins at four and you've had a horrendous journey from Wales five hours you'd have fucks sake it's only an hour letters in so there's got to be things we can address

1:25:54Dan:like

1:25:55Sat Bains:Sonny why don't you get in the garden let's get you a drinks list check is not till four so you're trying to manage expectations all the time and that's part of the restaurants that's what restaurants do but it's how you do it it's like you know someone came the other day that they had a walking stick and a wheelchair we didn't know but you've got to be clever you make sure that no one's in the restaurant is going to make a fuss you move the chairs around quickly everything's done we've got these chairs like this but we also ordered six without these because there's going to be larger guys larger people yeah yeah yeah so once they're in the lounge you see them you know what table they're going to go you swap the chair around so as they walk through they sit on a normal chair without them being embarrassed it's just empathy it's like real you're here to you know restaurants is restoration isn't it that's the that's what it means yeah yeah yeah looking after people yeah feeding them, making them feel nourished to go on their way.

1:26:54Sat Bains:So if you look at the base instincts of a restaurant, yes, you can be fucking arrogant, you can be this. You've got to manage expectations. Especially if people haven't been here before, they don't know what to expect. So by being friendly, a smile, a welcome, you're automatically on the side. If you're like, sorry, is your name down? And you're like that, and then they go, yeah, I don't know, my secretary booked it, it's not their name. You're already fucking alienated as soon as you walked in. And we've all had it. It's happened to me and Amanda loads of times in the past where you've gone to a restaurant on the day and you fucking want you there.

1:27:27Dan:Yeah, it's the worst. I mean, the ones I hate about that are these sort of East London, I was talking to my mate about these East London fucking bakeries, right? Oh, really? You've got these hipsters and they look at you like you're just a piece of shit who's walked in. And I'm like, I don't know what to say of the company, but there's loads of them in East London. They're all like wearing these things and like stupid hats and shit. And you basically get put, they're like, I'm like, can I have a coffee and a croissant? and they've got a thing of croissants at the front and I was like, do you have that available?

1:27:54Dan:And she looked at the thing going, no, clearly not. I was like, oh. They shouldn't be in our industry. They shouldn't be in the industry. Then I was standing there waiting for a coffee, like say they're making the coffee, so she goes, can you wait out there? So then I'm waiting out there like in a pen of, like a little sheep in a pen of fucking hipsters, yeah? I don't want to be there. And then they just call out your name and it's just the whole thing was just... It's like they're doing you a favour. It just, yeah, like, yeah. And I'm like, I'm giving you my money. See, this is about going back to the fucking dentist reception.

1:28:20Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:28:21Sat Bains:You know, if the owner was there and the owner was the business mind behind it, he'd love people coming to his coffee shop, bakery, whatever I want to call it.

1:28:30Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:28:30Sat Bains:The arrogance doesn't match.

1:28:33Dan:That is so interesting. Like, in East London, there is this sort of arrogance to the restaurants of, like, yeah, you're coming to me, man. Like, it's just like...

1:28:39Sat Bains:I think that's probably just youth.

1:28:41Dan:Yeah, yeah. I think there is that kind of... I get that kind of energy. Obviously, there's some absolutely stunning and wonderful places, but there is that kind of curtness and it's it's fascinating what are some of the i just want to push more on manda's role in this side yeah because i think it's what you've said there is um uh what what rory and when i had the podcast with osha at the devonshire rory osha talks about silent irritants and silent pleasantry so silent irritants is the door so it's stuff that you don't even know the the big bigger lad with the chair that's a silent irritant and you can't even get your arse in.

1:29:15Sat Bains:And you've alienated that guest because you want a trendy chair.

1:29:17Dan:Yeah, exactly.

1:29:18Sat Bains:But what about human body shapes?

1:29:21Dan:Restoration. Restoration, yeah. What are some of the other sort of silent irritants that you sort of pick up from more of the front of house side of things?

1:29:29Sat Bains:I think that's, because Amanda's a silent she's not, she doesn't do any podcasts, she's not on anything because she doesn't want to be and I think that's brilliant because she just wants to be running a restaurant and enjoying what she does. But her knowledge is world class she's she sees things that we don't see so she will always put the customers expectation first and see what is it that they were looking for like the way you're greeted like you know we'll go to the the car with an umbrella if it's raining so they can walk in and time so you're listening out for the gravel so if the car pulls off you know they're going to be getting here about four o 'clock for guests that are going to check in so you know there's someone around around 4.50, 3.45, and you hear the gravel, that means a guest is expected.

1:30:13Sat Bains:And then you can be ready for rooms. If it's raining, you run out with an umbrella. You know, the rooms, they're really equipped. So little things that I will never know, like having a cable that can measure a hair straightener to a mirror. What?

1:30:30Dan:Hang on.

1:30:30Sat Bains:Yeah, exactly.

1:30:31Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of hotels, they reckon,

1:30:34Sat Bains:is being designed by men, because a lot of the things don't work. like a hairdryer, straighteners, because there's no mirror. So what women do is essentially detail, is they'll put a mirror near this plug socket so the length of the cable is perfect for doing your hair. Uncommon common sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a tiny little thing, all these things like that. And what's in a little box in the cupboard for your guests is like a lint roller, something else, things that you'd probably need, like a sewing kit, whatever it is, that you think, oh, a little bag of tricks that we would probably wanted once in a hotel.

1:31:09Dan:Yes.

1:31:09Sat Bains:We'd just have it there as little things and tools that you need, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A torch in case it has a blackout or whatever it is, it's like all these little things.

1:31:18Dan:They all add up. Yeah, they all add up. And what about on the role play side of things, because that's interesting. So do you, because I believe that what you practice in private, you're praised for in public. Yeah. So it's like all the, all the, it's like, I don't know, the rugby at the minute is I saw a thing on Instagram of, well I kind of follow rugby from a distance but it was a try that they scored against Argentina but then they literally showed the next reel along was them practicing it in training and it was beautiful because it was just like so you see it when you're watching it and they get praised in public you know the geezer puts the try down you're like wow that was genius show you the practice because I think that's not something

1:31:59Sat Bains:that's probably done enough in restaurants because you're just left to your own devices and I think the training aspect it's something she's really big on because she believes that in awkward situations especially when you're putting them there should be a really good get out of jail clause where you can manage

1:32:13Dan:out of it because you've trained it yeah if you haven't trained it you go into back foot and you

1:32:17Sat Bains:go into panic mood you start making shit talk you start using words that are not yours you just flounder yeah yeah yeah by floundering it looks incompetent because you're the guest going oh you don't know what you're doing yeah yeah yeah whereas if you've actually been in that situation where you've had a tricky moment, by practising tricky moments...

1:32:35Dan:What are some of those...

1:32:36Sat Bains:For example, the way the table's set, right? So we have this rule. Because it's a multi-course menu, if you have a tasting menu. Yep. There's got to be a point where you know, as the sommelier, that that glass goes there. But you need a bit of space for when the fucking plate comes out. So if the sommelier is clued up and he's noticed that the glass is probably a little bit too close to the way your plate's going to go, the idea is they should automatically move it before the plate comes so then it just goes slip because nothing worse doing this

1:33:09Sat Bains:so you're trying to move these little rhythmic nuances without anyone knowing but this is what you're trying to look for to say that's an issue and we know it's an issue because you don't want to stand there with a plate then start re re decorating their fucking table so collectively as a team because a sommelier's going to put the wine down first or pour the water he knows a dish is coming out these are things you should be looking for yes so just to make the transaction really slick not rearrange

1:33:40Dan:everything it's rhythm what you said that's a beautiful word it is like it's because that's what i felt there's this kind of like a flow flow like yeah but like yeah just that sort of but not like and this way what I'm trying to understand is it didn't feel stuffy it can't I don't understand because it wouldn't suit us

1:34:01Sat Bains:because of our background yeah and the reason I used to call it working class two-star was just a piss day because you want it an accessible restaurant yeah

1:34:11Dan:regardless of accolades so for example we know

1:34:14Sat Bains:people have saved money it's a special occasion it's a serious fucking investment coming to a restaurant like this I don't take that lightly none of us do that's a serious commitment you've made to come here so when people have like stayed over last night or they're coming for lunch now or whenever they're here fucking hell you know you give them credit because they've made the decision to eat with you that's something you can never take lightly that's a privilege so you've got to give them you've got to practice like you said all the moving parts so you become really efficient without being because stuffiness is I suppose stuffiness is insecurity.

1:34:55Dan:Yeah. Yeah, it's an illusionary veil for security. You're just an arsehole.

1:35:00Sat Bains:So, you know, hang on, what happened to hospitality? What happened to thanking us for being here? And you're taking me wrong, if it's a rude guest, short shrift, they're not going to deal with that, which is very rare. But the majority of people, 98 % of the people, 99 % of the people want to be here because they want to experience. Given the experience that you've practiced at, that you've become really good at,

1:35:21Dan:he's mad i want to go back to the heart attack yes that's okay yeah of course um like you you stared death right in the eye and you said it changed you like so from what you were in the gym you were i was at home are you at home oh sorry it was so i'm a trainer with me oh you had your training because you're fucking as you said you're fit like you do go to the gym trained all your life so take me to sort of the the zenith of that so yeah training with with nate my trainer

1:35:49Sat Bains:I've had for years we were doing lunges in the garden felt this massive pain about 11 minutes past 11 thought it was muscular I was doing lunge walks with two 30 kilo kettlebells and I just thought fucking hell Nick I remember leaning on the bin and I was like fucking hell this is hard because yeah it's a good weight and it's hard

1:36:07Dan:30 kgs

1:36:07Sat Bains:yeah it was just lunges that's mental that's a lot of weight but I was like fucking hell so I just thought muscular carried on and then Amanda was in the kitchen it was locked down Nick went I was having a shower I was going to have a shower breakfast shower went to Sainsbury's in pain I just felt this pain here and here right it's a very strange never had it before like a bit of a dull sensation nothing major I had a whoop on so I've had a whoop on for four years five years and then I felt this pain and then I she goes let's go to Sainsbury's and went to the Wollerton Park which is not far went for a walk just felt short of breath I thought something's not right I don't know what it was just thought it was again probably overdid it then I felt this pain sorry then I got home how long

1:36:51Dan:what's the time period here

1:36:52Sat Bains:probably three hours about three four hours quite a long time she goes oh why don't you lie down for a bit so it's about three o 'clock four o 'clock in the afternoon she took me to bed and I was like I can't lie here it's fucking shit so I go down John comes and he goes you go down here John come to the house okay sorry yeah to pop in because it was real close during it was a lockdown and he goes you look like shit he goes do me a favour when you when you wake up tonight someone will give me a bell just in case you don't make it, like laughing. So anyway, so I'm not thinking anything of it. And then I feel a pain in my arm.

1:37:23Sat Bains:So my sister's worked for 111. So I rang her. She goes, just ring 999. Don't fuck about it. So I rang her in the next minute. Apparently it's turned on and said, do you ECG? Put some sprain in the tongue. And said, you've had a heart attack. We're going to take you in. So I'm thinking like overnight bag. I'll be out tonight, tomorrow. And then they took me through, did an angiogram, put the dye in your arm. and they realised I ruptured an artery, and it blocked, so I had a blood clot on it, and they had to do, what do they call it, thinners, blood thinners, to see what the damage was, before they could operate, so then in that time, I'm asking them, you know, I'm like, it's by now, the pain's gone, I'm just fucking like, it's normal, don't feel anything, and they go, you know, it's quite serious, you've got this, so I was like, what's the three, you know, what's the options, because you've got three, one's a keyhole, which you have to get to London, but you're not travelling, one's something else and one's open heart surgery it's okay fine i get that so i'm ringing amanda she's we can't come to the hospital but she did and they let her in and um it's on the morning an atheist comes in says i want to do this tomorrow this is your surgeon so one top surgeon okay sounds like take it all in stride everything's cool and then on the morning the surgery that goes oh um it's about five o 'clock goes oh you know see if your wife's gonna come i was what before she's going to surgery at 10 o 'clock i was then so i don't know i'm fucking serious i think you might need to call her so she came and then we obviously had a little chat together which was brilliant sent me down about 10 they said you should come around about five and they'll keep amanda posted but i didn't come around till about nine and then i just remember this fucking thing in my throat and i woke up and they said um and they rang amanda said oh he's through he's come through so i was it that was it i was in hospital for about 10 days what did you say to amanda when had that chat i was cool about it all even now i don't i don't fear death i think because i've had such a great life career we've been together for a long time so we've had a brilliant journey i just know how precious life is but also how fickle it is so you've got to really grab it and it all bleeds into all my beliefs now it all bleeds into that that's probably why i am the way i am that's probably why i've got this mindset that's probably why i'm creative that's probably why all of these things have all accumulated by who i am as a person do i want to die of course today i want to live yeah i want to experience this i'm healthy i've looked after myself i train i eat well i don't do anything too excessive but this is a journey isn't it and it's very short so let's grab it and let's kick the fuck out of it as far as yeah yeah yeah yeah and really do something really well hence if you're gonna do that do it really well if you're gonna do that do it really well so if i want to run a restaurant let's run it the best we can let's have no regrets and that's the driver it's almost there's a stoic um quote i think it's a

1:40:26Dan:morey fatty which is i probably butchered that but it's being a weight being aware of your mortality is actually a good thing. Yeah, I think so. Because it really forces you into fucking like being in the moment.

1:40:37Sat Bains:Acting into action. But also like

1:40:39Dan:appreciating the now. Like we've had a few friends, like family friends who are kind of in pretty horrific conditions over like, it just kind of happens, you know, as I've just sort of, well I'm 32 now, but they're kind of as you just get older. Yeah. And I'm like, shit, like he was super fit. But you don't know what's around the corner. Don't know what's around the corner, so be in the now. So what also,

1:40:59Sat Bains:from that, the one phrase I use a lot is the biggest gift I can give anyone is my time. Yeah. That's for all of us. So forget your fucking gifts, forget your presents. If you go to someone's birthday, you going is the biggest gift you've given them, is your time.

1:41:15Dan:Yeah.

1:41:15Sat Bains:Because time is so fucking precious.

1:41:17Dan:Yeah. And that's how I look at it. And do they, do you think like this constant attack thing, do they know what caused it? Because you were clearly fit.

1:41:26Sat Bains:like it's hereditary genetics and punjabi heritage we all suffer from high cholesterol oh really yeah yeah it's genetics but also probably my lifestyle from a chef from all these years yeah yeah early years of drinking and all the shit used to go with it late nights so it's all accumulative but it's what i do now now i know the information that i know how can I enjoy the next chapter so when you wake up 9 p.m hospital bed eventually come around you've

1:41:57Dan:got this thing in your neck how's the sat change from going in versus going out so I read something

1:42:03Sat Bains:you said it has changed you it's a difficult one because I don't feel I've changed I think what what was difficult was the brain is a lot stronger than the body that I realised because my mind was saying get up do shit but my body couldn't do it so going home for the six weeks eight weeks after I had to keep moving but my body was fat so I lost like 16 kilos in like 10 days so that's fat but because you've got muscle repetition and memory and all the rest of it you slowly start building yourself up you understand your brain is trying to make you move and asking a lot from your body, body couldn't reactivate couldn't respond and it's a humility, it's a beautiful feeling because you think well I'm Ewan and you realise how mechanical and how you're made and how you are machinery biological, mechanical mental, psychological so you're a mixture of everything and you've got to be realistic in your mortality and say you know what i was fucking lucky i've still got this time i'm still healthy i've still got what i love i still love what i do still got my wife still got my job still got all the things that i love my friends and i'm still doing what i always wanted to do i've not changed anything yeah the change came after when i said i wanted to be quieter and we changed it so instead of doing the 250 covers a week we went down to 120 we reduced the staff we reduced the covers reduced the opening times and everything just went do you feel happier now absolutely i think contentment is a beautiful thing and content is being content in all parts of your life and that's what we all strive for and that's why there's so much mental health and everything with people finding out you know i'm not happy i'm happy when a lot of it's down to childhood you know i've had therapy for 12 years i know exactly who i am i know how i get triggered what makes me what makes me act a different way if i don't get certain things and i know that they all trigger certain parts of my makeup because i've done a lot of work on myself you know um one of the things i did which is going back to when you said white belt you know i took up jujitsu two and a half years ago and the reason is completely going out the box the frustration working in an environment like this in the kitchen where you're telling people what to do, you become a mentor.

1:44:34Sat Bains:But the frustration is they can't always adhere to what you're asking them to do. So the frustration is, fuck say, how hard is it? So I go, I don't know what. I'm going to go back to something I'm really shit at, which is jujitsu. So then I started jujitsu, I'm dog shit. But you learn empathy because your trainer is telling you to do something you can't do. So you're frustrated. So it hopefully puts me in a better mindset to deal with people that don't know what they're doing. because I don't know what I'm doing again. Whereas when you're in your field of expertise, it's a piece of piss. You fucking do that, do that, cook that.

1:45:08Sat Bains:It's become blasé. What it's done, it's made me go back, say, fucking hell, people will struggle to do this because it's really hard. Jiu-Jitsu has taught me that. That it's a journey. It's not a destination. It's a journey of trying something, becoming better through repetition, through reps, to hopefully then make you a bit more human to understand how people struggle in a professional kitchen.

1:45:34Dan:Yes.

1:45:34Sat Bains:Because my coach probably struggles with me when he's shown me something five times and I still can't get it.

1:45:40Dan:Mate, that's just such a wonderful philosophy, that kind of empathy and grounding and humbleness.

1:45:45Sat Bains:I think you need it, you need it, because when you get to a certain point in any career, you become really half-decent at it, because it's like the 10, 20, 30 ,000-hour rule, whatever you want to call it. Yes. But you can't ever forget people will struggle. and as soon as you remember that and you put yourself back in the struggle you realise like fuck me I'm really bad at this and then you're frustrated and then you then get fucking wound up and then you're pissed off but then forget all that just remember why you've gone back to doing something from scratch because you want to know what it feels like to be not great at something again

1:46:19Dan:yeah do you know what I mean and a hundred percent but I've never heard anyone as I said you have this kind of it keeps going back to uncommon common sense but it's just yeah I've never heard because I think there's an ego thing in this as well of course it is when people get to the you know

1:46:34Sat Bains:that's something you've got to keep in check all the time you know ego could be oh you shit cunt fucking arse but it's not you know we're not all the same and as soon as we remember that we're not all the same and we all have different learning capabilities we all have different patterns on learning and we all have different ways of understanding are you a physical a practical a mental learner you know I thought I was I thought I was a practical learner for years. I thought, you know, show me a... I wasn't. My jiu-jitsu coach, Carlos, he goes, you're an actual physical learner. You've got to be shown.

1:47:06Dan:Oh, sorry, physical as in like... I've got to do it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Practicals, I can read about it. Yeah.

1:47:12Sat Bains:Practicals are, you know, show you a demonstration, you do it. I need to be shown. So he goes, you're a practical learner. Because I never knew that. I only found that when I was 53 years old. Wow. That's mental, isn't it? That's mental.

1:47:24Dan:That's mental. we're going to come on to the books I want us to explore so what was the pain you were in that led you to go to therapy

1:47:32Sat Bains:I think it's childhood it's all trauma for all of us can we explore that what was that it's childhood growing up in a household that I did having a very strong minded father abusive but you learn you learn from that that was the way he was brought talk so you can put everything back into his box once you realise you're a manifestation of whatever that was and none of it was your fault, that you're actually a by-product and your traits as a man are dictated by your youth. Yeah. And your upbringing, your childhood, because it's all trauma. But as soon as you understand that, it opens this fucking door of wisdom.

1:48:11Sat Bains:It's like, I'm not fucking mental. I'm not deranged and not abnormal. It all makes sense of the pattern and trajectory I've had in my life is why I ended up where I did. Yeah. And then you start to unravel it. And it all makes sense. So my biggest thing is with all my friends, and I've always said it, and guys in the kitchen, you see them struggling. Let's get some help. Get some fucking help. Yeah. Because that's their job, to pull that shit out. Because what you do, you bury it, and it's fucking very deep. And sometimes it's so deep, it just needs a little string, and then the shit comes out.

1:48:45Sat Bains:And then you just fucking out. There's this relief you feel, because you start to understand your makeup. Because all we're doing is questioning ourselves all our lives. Why? Why did I feel like that? why have I done that what makes you do that what makes you have that extra drink on a fucking night out why do I yeah I mean I had to go and do it

1:49:00Dan:for like three years because I had a bad like just partying problem just get on it all weekend and then but it's always

1:49:05Sat Bains:excessive behaviours are caused by excessive traumas

1:49:10Dan:okay because it's all related

1:49:12Sat Bains:it's all related from the the product here was manifested here so you've got to go back to understand the trigger points of why

1:49:22Dan:so what was some of the so one of them for me

1:49:24Sat Bains:it was because I lost out on youth because I was working. So mum was always wanting to stay out late, always go out, always fucking be the last one out, last one home. You know, when I was a younger lad, I've been here since I was 28. We used to go out on a Friday, Saturday night, game at five in the morning, go to work at eight in the morning, three hours sleep.

1:49:41Dan:Yeah.

1:49:41Sat Bains:Because I lost so much of my youth while I was working. So I was chasing something that I didn't need to, but I had to. And then it realised the damage it probably was done later like what the fuck are you doing if I knew now I'd have let that go

1:49:58Dan:but you had to go through that

1:49:59Sat Bains:to get to here

1:50:00Dan:yeah fascinating any other sort of things you learn about yourself through that period

1:50:05Sat Bains:it's just your makeup of who you are why you know I'm very competitive I don't know why don't know where that came from then you realise that because dad was you know jiu jitsu is hard because he used to pin you down so when I get pinned down now I have this fucking horrible period of like I can't move but then coach goes just breathe shut the fuck up breathe and you start learning to deal with pressure.

1:50:27Dan:Yes.

1:50:27Sat Bains:That is traumatising initially. But then when you're putting that situation as a man, you'll fucking, you reverse straight back to that fucking feeling of helplessness. But then you realise with help, with a coach, with fucking life and who you are now, you can get through it now. It's all good. No one's going to do any fucking shit to you.

1:50:46Dan:You're going to get through it.

1:50:47Sat Bains:You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it's all, everything's cyclical. Yeah. everything always comes around and you become the better version of yourself and you understand yourself and you keep pushing and and the push is never to push to the end it's just not to give up

1:51:05Dan:yeah i also think there's a i think there's a sort of taipei people there's a um do you know the restaurant cole in london yeah yeah infuse santiago his story is fucking wild like i think he'd lost his granddad, mum, and maybe dad all in the same month when he was 14. Mate, came to London, had like 40 quid a day, couldn't even go on like hinge dates. Like wild story. And you know, some people say, oh, you'll never be satisfied. It's never enough. Or why do you keep pushing? Or like, just relax. Yeah, yeah. And what we sort of came to the conclusion with, and I kind of agree with this, is that's wrong for like, a lot of people say that are the ones who sat on the sofa doing fucking...

1:51:43Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah, relax. Eating quavers, do you know what I mean? Fuck off. but there's an actual element of peace and improvement yeah when you look at something like how can i make this better there's i i find peace in that like with it's with my writing it's like how do i go it's therapeutic there's like a it makes you very present and i think it's it's really interesting um when you say sort of that competitive thing because i think there is kind of we sort of the narrative of competitiveness is this like yeah get after it but actually there's there is a kind of a beautiful piece to it and energy but the thing with the competitive nature

1:52:14Sat Bains:which is very strange as well and I didn't know this until someone pointed it out all the sports I do is individual table tennis badminton snooker paddle not paddle but I don't play any sports team sports that's so interesting because I use that in here yeah so I've utilised all my team sportsmanship in there so anything else I do squash badminton whatever it is is singular competitiveness against myself. So all I'm doing is trying to compete with myself to be better. But someone pointed out randomly years ago, is that how come everything you do is just you? You never play team sports like football or cricket.

1:53:02Sat Bains:I've got no reason. I've got no want to. Mad. I've got no want to.

1:53:07Dan:Talk to me about Mama Banes. Yes. Because I saw the truck outside. So what was she like in the role in the fabric of you growing up?

1:53:16Sat Bains:She was there. Obviously, she was the matriarch of the house. And she worked. Mum worked. Got three sisters. Managed me. Older sister was kind of like the mum as well because she looked after us. So mum was always working. We had a household, had shops, businesses. And I think it was a busy... Again, Punjabi households are quite noisy. Why that? Because of the culture.

1:53:37Dan:Right.

1:53:38Sat Bains:There's a lot of us in a community in Derby. so my dad had three four brothers you okay yeah yeah go for it so my dad had four brothers and then they had their wives okay we live in my grandma's house there's probably 18 of us yeah and then we all separated and went off to our own houses so there were six of us in our house and then we always live in an area where the community was very big in the Punjabi community dad was the oldest brother so a lot of them would come to our house on the weekends so there's a lot of like nephews and cousins and all that shit so it's quite noisy it's quite funny because when i meet all my sisters the noise level goes all like that and i'm just sitting there like fuck it they're so noisy because again three sisters two quite close in age very competitive

1:54:26Dan:so there's always that that so my mum's one of three scouts so three three sisters scouts are our Christmas is just like,

1:54:35Sat Bains:fucking hell, fucking hell.

1:54:36Dan:It's fucking crazy. And they're like, they're lunatics. That's fascinating. And what is the Mama Bane's thing? Because that was a, what's the crack of that?

1:54:44Sat Bains:We did that in lockdown. We still have a place in Derbyshire that does some of the products. Right. And then we're looking at other venues at the moment to have a look at it. So it's on the bit of a back burner. Right. But it's definitely out there.

1:54:59Dan:And is that like another way to make money, essentially? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Or like allow customers to spend with you at a lockdown. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1:55:04Sat Bains:But it's also a very authentic look into my upbringing as a Punjabi household. But again, it's quite difficult to explain because the food you get, that's Mama Bain's food, is that... Mum's food was like Punjabi authentic.

1:55:21Dan:Describe what that is.

1:55:22Sat Bains:So you wouldn't get this in a restaurant.

1:55:23Dan:Okay.

1:55:24Sat Bains:So yes, it's called an aubergine curry or a chickpea curry, but it's not like what you'd get in a restaurant. because that's more like gujarati, Pakistani. So household food is very much home style, but it's passed down from mums and granddaughters and daughters. So it's almost like this really traditional curry, but you wouldn't necessarily recognise the flavours so much as an Indian restaurant. Does that make sense?

1:55:53Dan:Yes, it does. So culturally, what do most people misunderstand, do you think about um the punjabi households or i think you've talked a lot about like this it would be more to do with oh you're sorry i was just going to say because i've heard you talk a lot about this sort of immigrant mindset um you know working your nuts off tits off whatever like but i'd love to understand what do most people misunderstand about that from your perspective

1:56:17Sat Bains:well it's a very close-knit community um normally families are always congealed in a similar in a regional area. Yeah. We're at Derby. So I had all my relatives there and the East Midlands and Midlands. So a lot of us, uncles, aunties, brothers, dad's brothers, dad's nephews, dad's cousins, all that shit came over in the 60s. So my grandparents came over in the 60s and my mum and dad came over in the 60s as well from India. Dad was in Malaysia so he came over when he was 14. Mum came over when she was like eight, went to Bradford. So she's got like a bit of a northern accent. and they had a range marriage at 16 in derby and then obviously first child at 17 so again it's all traditional quite repressed the way it is the way culture because obviously as a community you're an immigrant so you have your own communities and then obviously you've got to work within the environment of the uk but because england um it was part of the commonwealth it was a way in for a better way of life over here yeah so they adapted very well to the british culture of working hard you can earn dad's got businesses and he played the system to his benefit you know where he did half decently well but the community is very um loyal to each other the gudwara is like the meeting pot for the temple the temple the seat the golden sorry the Seat Temple, the Goudwaro is where a lot of the communities all congregate on a weekend.

1:57:52Sat Bains:So you're brought up with religion, tradition, all the things I fucking hated.

1:57:57Dan:Yeah. And then I met Amanda in a hotel restaurant we worked at together,

1:58:02Sat Bains:and it was across the road from the dad's shop. So he had a newsagent, so the restaurant was there, just opened, and then one of the night porters told my dad, well, Sat's done, well, he's seen one of the fucking managers. And then that was it, it was all game over then. Because obviously being Indian...

1:58:15Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:58:16Sat Bains:So then mum found out and kicked me out of the house. So I got kicked out at 18. Yes. With a couple of black bin liners full of clothes. I turned up at Amanda's house going, can I move in? And she really just met each other like six weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she left home at 16, so she was very independent. She's like, what the fuck's this guy going to do here? Jesus. So that was it. Game over. Wow. So again, so it's kind of like, it's probably like that cultural, from the other side, isn't it? Like, I'm Indian, because she was white. I got kicked out. because who knows what you're going to do at 17, 18 years old.

1:58:50Sat Bains:Yeah, of course. You're just a kid. But best thing that ever happened, because it meant I could cut my ties, didn't have to work in that fucking shop anymore.

1:58:58Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could actually use your bicycle for good things.

1:59:02Sat Bains:Yeah, exactly. And then moved in with Amanda. Then I got sat from that job because I was shit. She carried on, then we moved to Nottingham, where Amanda's from, and then we worked. I think it was always this moment, we were driving I don't know how we were driving I had a shit Orion you had a what sorry? shit Orion Ford Orion yep I was coming back from mum's when I was about 24 so it was a few years after it all happened and I saw this fucking car and it's like going past us and on the right side there's a BMW like a fucking 5 series like slick dark blue night time looks immaculate and I'm driving this fucking shitty red Ford Orion with an Amanda and I looked over I was like, fuck it, when's that going to be us?

1:59:48Sat Bains:And she says to me, like, when we're 30. She just said it like that, just, like, confident, knowing that we've just got to work really, really hard. And the world's a oyster, isn't it?

2:00:00Dan:What do you like spending money on materially?

2:00:05Sat Bains:I like spending money on... Mmm. It's interesting actually because I do love things like sports gear. I like Lululemon. That's my favourite training gear. New Balance trainers. Really good Japanese whisky. Some beautiful wines. And cigars. Right? Yeah. They're the normal bloke things. But I've done a few times now where I've done a curfew on myself. Where I'll say I'm not buying anything for a year. And I've done it. Because I've got enough clothes, right? For every season and every sport for the rest of our life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I try to, every now and then, just go, no. and I like to put that on myself where I say I'm not spending for six months on anything and it just resets you.

2:00:48Dan:Do you know what I mean? Yeah, because I'm a bit bad like that. Yeah, it's just on a whim, isn't it?

2:00:51Sat Bains:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:00:53Dan:I've got quite an addictive personality. Yeah, I have as well. They've ended up buying these fucking P600 Nike trainers and I love them and I started looking at all the different colours and I went into the shop. Yeah, yeah. I was like, what are you doing? I ended up getting so many trotters that I don't even have enough days of the week to wear them. And I went into this store, I just had to finish the meeting, I was like, I'll just pop in. Next thing you know, they're very good salespeople. They're like, oh, they're like, darling, you look amazing. They're allowing you to spend money. Yeah, they're like, darling, you look amazing.

2:01:22Dan:I was like, oh, I can fucking rock these. And I literally, I felt so bad. I put them on the thing, I was like, they look fucking shit. And I was like, you're just going to blow another 120 quid on fucking training because you don't need...

2:01:33Sat Bains:The thing is, as well with that, it's therapy, we know that.

2:01:37Dan:Yeah.

2:01:37Sat Bains:But it's short fix. yes it's the endorphins isn't it yeah yeah yeah then you're like oh what have I done that for

2:01:43Dan:yeah yeah yeah yeah 100 let's talk about this yes meet on doodle um because I've yeah so just give some context for people listening yeah um talk to me about what this is I know just we had about there's about a pile of these it's probably about 60 70 of them over the years so

2:02:03Sat Bains:what it is it's a beautiful little book and i like writing i love doodling writing quotes or words ideas sketches and the idea is i i feel that once it's out it's out there so i try not to have anything left in if that makes sense so i need to express myself somehow through this okay so it It could be a word. It could be like a line. It could be like, I could work in an audition. So it's like here. Ideas for mid-summer 2025. So I accept it. How long is this, how old is this book? This is probably about three months old. Okay, cool. So again, you draw, write, you put the dating. So I didn't use to put the dates.

2:02:50Sat Bains:So I thought, shit, when did I think that? So now I always like the date now. So I can have a reference point. So there could be like little things that I'm writing or sketches or drawings and sometimes it could be like a little like a little doodle which is what they're called but that would have lots of significant information on it enough for me so if i went back to it i remember where it was and it could be a new idea for a dish it could be an idea on where the menu's going what what direction we want to go in and i think by having it written it just helps me with my mind process of logging stuff because it just helps me work

2:03:27Dan:better i also think creatively you've got to let your sub subconscious go to work yeah by getting out your head and then you like sort of this whole idea again this rick rubens talks a lot about this

2:03:37Sat Bains:of letting the ideas sort of marinate and yeah breathe energy i think when you get it out put it there it allows it to go to work yeah then it's like it's like sitting there in it and then

2:03:46Dan:yeah yeah and then you open it and you're like and then you come back but also i think when you go back to an idea it's like reading it's a bit like so if i've read a book i'm trying to think of an example like if I read I remember I read Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss when I was like 20 right I re-read it last year same book I'm a different person

2:04:05Sat Bains:really

2:04:06Dan:it means so much difference it means so much difference so it's like you may write that down in April or you may have one of those doodles from 2017

2:04:13Sat Bains:yeah

2:04:13Dan:this is pre heart attack this is pre all this other stuff you go you're a different person you go looking back at it and it gives you this whole new energy that's why I think it's really important to capture these things

2:04:21Sat Bains:and because my first passion was art when I was at school my mom would have loved to have been an artist. So I loved art at school and I loved kind of like Rothko. I loved kind of like contemporary art, minimalist. But then, so then for a while I was actually using, so I've got some books here you can have a look later. Yeah, yeah. Which are all contemporary. So I would actually, instead of looking at inspiration at other chefs, I looked at art and I replicated art images in food. Mate. So it was mental. That's so sick. It's fucking mental.

2:04:50Dan:I really believe different inputs equal different outputs. Yeah, again, so if you're looking where every other chef is looking. You're going to do the same shit.

2:04:55Sat Bains:Yeah, you're all going to do the same shit. So this way, I kind of got some really original ideas. So say there was like a beautiful red circle that Anish Kapoor did. And I did it where it was a beetroot jelly with beef tartar underneath. And you'd cut it and it was all dusted. And we used to put the card of the actual picture first on the table and then the dish would come out. So this is inspired by Anish Kapoor. Wow. And then people go, fucking hell, this is mental.

2:05:18Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just love the whole connection

2:05:22Sat Bains:between creative art and creative food. Because you can do so many things where the idea is unique because it's not come from the normal genre that you're looking at, like seasonality, grouse, watercress, blackberries. But then all of a sudden you've got a unique view. Oh my God, that could be the new grass dish, which is just a purple sheet of jelly. Then everything's underneath it. And it's the sort of case, okay. We did one years ago called colligionous. So I looked up on the dictionary. it means like coming out from the dark so one of our friends in singapore hondre chang's got two star and he was doing a whole movement on this art piece and i said would you do a dish what was it called because i'll calliginous yeah i'll show you it all yeah yeah yeah and it was almost like from the dark to the light or something like that right in a forest yeah yeah so i thought that makes a lot of sense so i did a deer tartar like a venison tartar with loads of lichen oak moss mushrooms so all the forest floor was a black sheet of gel on a black plate.

2:06:27Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:06:27Sat Bains:When he cut it, all the red and the flowers came out so it was the light going from the dark.

2:06:33Dan:That's so sick.

2:06:34Sat Bains:So when I read that, then I did it as a dish on the menu. That's so sick. And he did it in the restaurant in Shanghai.

2:06:40Dan:That's mad. So it's almost this really looking kind of obscure places. Yeah. What was it? This is the John Hegarty guy. Originality comes from obscure sources, which I really like.

2:06:50Sat Bains:Because I think looking at art, especially abstract art, you're so opened up to a new field of thinking. Yeah. Because you know the food's going to look unique because no one's ever done it, but you've got to use your skill as a chef to then layer it with the ingredients and the balance. Yes. Because you've got this beautiful new look. Before we go, I'll show you all the dishes we've done that relate to art.

2:07:16Dan:Yeah, and what I'll do is I'll whack some pictures and then we can whack it on the thing. so just quickly on this and what on the doodles is there any specific examples from here that again we can snap up and whack on uh yeah this one here yeah so this one is the new duck dish so

2:07:30Sat Bains:again just that looking at that makes so much sense because i would as i love the way i would have had that right you would have something similar but this is the new version that we're working on this week okay right so it's not so that makes some so again i love angle so So just looking at that, it kind of appeases my sensibilities of visual because I already know that's going to be toast, soft, crispy watercress, as in acidic, a lovely juice. So I know what it's going to look like and taste like, but I've just got to put it together. So then I can work on the balance of each mouthful goes with what?

2:08:11Yeah.

2:08:11Sat Bains:Is there enough of that to that ratio? so that is almost like a finished dish already i've just got to match that to that where does where does that idea come from like does that just from a physical um that came from trying to reintroduce the new duck dish the old one to make it a bit cleaner but to add some duck skin and toast with pate so you've got the duck liver pate toast chutney watercrest cellar's classic beautiful wild duck but then you've got soft meat crisp soft but then that came from a visual that that looks so right yeah does that make sense completely yeah yeah yeah it just looks so right to me

2:08:50Dan:yeah yeah yeah it's mad just seeing your creative the way as you sort of say the energy flows creatively

2:08:56Sat Bains:and then all you're all you're trying to do is is recreate the feeling you get from a dish can you can you do it in a busy service can you do it where it's you know that's like a tart we did with the with the the mushrooms that you probably had and then you're trying to think about see this is the dish you had there oh yeah that's the one with the that was banging the dog but again that that makes sense now because it looks so do you mean so so striking so then we've got to replicate that on the plate and then will it

2:09:32Dan:so when you take it to the team take it to john yeah because i think creativity he just gets it straight away yeah but is there is there an element of where you like kind of set a la example like say you know Mick Jagger may write a lyric and then pull um

2:09:49Sat Bains:oh no we'll put it out for interpretation yeah yeah that's what I'm trying to yeah absolutely what happens then but again that I will I will probably say I want it to look like that but then we'll work out what each bit is okay so then the dish looks like that yeah but I don't know what it all is yet yeah that make sense yeah you said you have um you write sometimes like

2:10:08Dan:sentences and stuff what are some like this one or two sort of like sentences you kind of live

2:10:13Sat Bains:your life and philosophy by then i haven't really got any i just i think we've used some of them here but again i don't know i use them like allowing your guests spend money um you know things like that they're kind of like probably mantras that's what i mean yeah mantras but i

2:10:26Dan:don't have them written on i know them yeah they're all part of your makeup over a period

2:10:31Sat Bains:at a time that you don't know you can go oh there it is yeah because i've never written them down in that way as a block yeah as in that's one i'm gonna keep that one yeah that makes sense coming out in conversation and you forget you probably forget 90 more than you remember

2:10:44Dan:but at the time it meant so much yes at the time yeah no it's what i like so i've not logged it all but playing it back to you like from what i've picked up is that uncommon common sense yeah the idea of this like one it's it's an organism and an energy restaurant and that transfers to a story like it's fascinating a couple more things then we'll begin to wrap this up mate but i'm absolutely loving this but um so you've traveled all around the world yeah and i'd love to know like maybe the best way to ask this is being specific but like what's what country does the best breakfast do you think oh wow that's a very good one i think the uk yeah the uk do a brilliant breakfast but then like more more to use it as a launch pad to explore different cultures.

2:11:31Sat Bains:I think Japanese breakfast is very good in terms of their, almost like their kaya saki. We had it once in the mountains in Kyoto somewhere and it was just this incredible adventure of like pickles and chow mushi and an egg dish and it was just the celebration of this kind of like all these lovely lacquered dishes full of elements that each had a purpose to be there and i think that's japanese food in general but i think that's the most advanced cuisine on the planet personally in terms of their knowledge their understanding of seasonality the nuances of balance seasonality and all them things to make something a complete with lots of little parts i think their kai sake menu in general is that where you have different sake glasses throughout the meal and it will change the texture and it's a different cup and then you'd have a certain thing at a certain time because it's what's needed then so they're so in tune with the whole makeup of it is incredible so kaya sake is what the modern day tasting menu is so we can take so much from the kaya sake menu if we're doing tasting menus here yeah so you can look at the nuances of balance and that's why sometimes years ago i went in 2007 to japan and then I started introducing vegetables as a course.

2:12:54Sat Bains:Now I remember Daniel Clifford saying years ago, I did a salariate dish, salt-baked salariate, pickled salariate, salariate, puree, truffle juice. He goes, that's what you normally serve on the side of a beef dish. But you've actually made it into a course. I goes, yeah, because we should be celebrating the vegetable on par with the beef. Because you should, there should be no hierarchy with ingredients. Each one should have its own space.

2:13:18Dan:What other countries do you think, like do very exquisite food or like culturally?

2:13:27Sat Bains:It's difficult ones, isn't it?

2:13:29Dan:Yeah, yeah. It's just interesting because I've been to Japan. I went for 2019. What I find mad about that place is just as you go, it's the specialisms of everything. Everything. So like you have the ramen guy, you'd have the katsu guy. Just one thing. I mean, I remember like,

2:13:42Sat Bains:but also they had one guy

2:13:45Dan:like basically doing chicken arsehole. Yeah. Which sounds mental. and like it started fucking banging but I gave it to my dad he was like what the fuck is that I was like it's chicken arsehole mate but it was delicious when she when she when she done the psychological jump that it's a chicken arsehole yeah it was really good

2:14:02Sat Bains:so I think again culturally I'm not sure but I've I've travelled in terms of like where have you been like we've been to America San Fran New York Black Forest in Germany France I love France see for me I still rate France as probably my romantic passage to gastronomy. Because I kind of grew up with reading the French repertoire, La Russe gastronomy, Escoffier, and I was taught French at college, as in French cooking. It's still probably the most satisfying cuisine for me on the planet, as in nourishing. because I love going to a three-star in France and just experiencing the whole etiquette in a glass of champagne to start while you're perusing the menu.

2:14:53Sat Bains:You're not sure what to choose. You see what your mates are choosing and then you have some of them. You choose the white wine. You sit there. You know, the whole romanticism. Like me and Claude will go to Paris twice a year just on the Eurostar, just for lunch. And it's the best trip you can imagine. So I leave Nottingham at 6.30. I'm back at 9.30 at night. yeah yeah we've had lunch in a three star wow but it's the romanticism it still has this it still pulls strings with my heart of the connection of haute cuisine of like you know i love making sauces like sauce making is a true skill to get depth and layers into a sauce and i love that but that's coming from the french repertoire so that's probably where my heart is and where my emotions are as a chef because it's it still means so much to me it's mad isn't it so you've

2:15:45Dan:got the romantic french pull yeah what's the kind of the new or the exciting i know you've just been to australia but i walk i mean what would you say is the best foodie city in the world i mean i hate the word foodie but like where would you say is a place that it's just like you go here and you're having a fucking great time i think london yeah honestly yeah diversity is incredible where do

2:16:05Sat Bains:you like to go see again i like so when i normally go i'll go to the ritz i've been there a couple of times i'm off to yannick eleno's on in a couple of weeks on the counter um i might be controversial but i'm not a massive fan ofst john how come i just don't know i don't know what it's me it's me i can't blame them it's me i just don't get it what you know you get a crab 40 quid it's not haven't prepped it's just cooked you gotta do it yourself genius genius you know i don't i'm not gonna slag it off but i just i'm not one of them fans of that um but again devonshire's good for a pint actually he's got a great concept there with his big you know beef chops and what's going on so good i think it's brilliant there we're there for our christmas do for um eight of eight blokes that all smoke and drink together once a year we get together on a barbecue here and we have a christmas do every year so first year was at corinthia second year was that claude's josephine yep this year's at devonshire so this is all your

2:17:15Dan:mates from here oh from around here yeah yeah so they're all uh in a little club yeah i've got i'm having dinner with ash on monday at lombar something oh okay so the new one i think so yeah he's tributts new one yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm there in a few weeks as well oh yeah Yeah, yeah, because we're going to go to the... Yeah, so I've got dinner with him there. But Devon, he's a fucking legend.

2:17:35Sat Bains:But as a chef, he's fucking up there. He's probably one of the best.

2:17:38Dan:Also, he's so, like, a bit like you, like, the creative...

2:17:41Sat Bains:Oh, he's a genius. Genius. But his pictures, mate.

2:17:43Dan:Yeah, they are world-class.

2:17:44Sat Bains:His photos.

2:17:45Dan:I think he's one of the best photographers I've ever fucking seen. He sent two of John. Mate, and I... The post, I was like, fuck, that's like a poster. Mate, I said you should make a book, right?

2:17:53Sat Bains:Yeah, gee, that's a funny idea. He really should. Yeah.

2:17:54Dan:And so we're doing, as I said to you, a big lever for our sort of revenue stream for our business next year is these sick, like, really boutique events. And I was like to Ash, I was like, I can't pay you, but I want these pictures. Because you can just encapsulate, I don't know, it's just like a different creative outlet. But they are fucking amazing pictures. Like, out of this world pictures.

2:18:17Sat Bains:He's got the eye. And he's got, you know, he's got the kit. But to use it that well, he captures beautiful moments. yeah i think that's where he's got his eye for detail yeah but he is a genuinely top chef you know he's got the drive of the fat duck the eye for detail creativity and the discipline as dinner and he's like he's he's had such a brilliant career in all these different genres he's like

2:18:43Dan:this complete package what about uh claude talk to me about like what what do you resonate with

2:18:48Sat Bains:him like what how's he i think me and claude just gone you know we met a long time ago um an AA award actually very similar characters larger than I love a bit of fun

2:18:57Dan:yeah yeah yeah

2:18:58Sat Bains:and I think because also because of the French connection because I love French food and I think you know I remember going to Hibiscus back in the day in Ludlow and it was world class then and then I used to go and see him in Mayfair and then obviously at Bibendum and I think we do trips together but we both love the same thing so we love that romanticism like we've just been to Hong Kong we did a dinner out there at the Four Seasons we had some beautiful little noodle places fucking incredible food we've been to San Fran together we've been all over the world Japan together and I think it's like a companion that you travel with that you just have these brilliant memories of what brought us together was food and we just travel the world and then we do this road trip now which is the next level

2:19:47Dan:I spoke to Tom about that

2:19:51Sat Bains:so claude tom claire yeah the doyen yeah yeah legend daniel the fivers we do this road trip for our third year we just get cars travel around france go to three stars and we have the best time and you're traveling that driving for like seven eight hours stop over this three star stay over and we're like we're like kids right yeah it's almost like i can't remember where i saw you it once we're all adults but it's almost like if you had a reflection we're all like 12 yeah in the reflection yeah because we're all giddy giddy as in exciting yeah no no i get now i'm in a

2:20:26Dan:restaurant giddy such a thing i think we should be chasing giddy more yeah and we're sitting there and we're like what we're gonna have like i don't know and we're like oh you're gonna have

2:20:33Sat Bains:and like oh and you fucking even now thinking about it i'm for joy yes because it's a joy That's for me, it's a celebration of all them years of working in a white box, right, a kitchen, to allow yourself a little bit of the joys of what restaurants bring. And with friends that are all in the same vein of, we're so lucky to be here, so lucky to sit here and choose that wine and sit in this restaurant and spend time with each other. Like I say, time, you know, is the biggest gift you can give your friends and yourselves.

2:21:04Dan:Yeah.

2:21:05Sat Bains:We're giving each other the gift of our time.

2:21:07Dan:Yes.

2:21:08Sat Bains:Whose idea was it to do that? It was Tom's. He did it for his 50th. Right. So we went to Marseille.

2:21:14Dan:Yep.

2:21:15Sat Bains:And he used his cars back then. We all drove one of his cars from Marlowe to Marseille. And we stopped off at two places. And then now it's our third year, fourth year next year. So then it's become this like annual event. Amazing.

2:21:27Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to just quickly go on to the jujitsu. Yes. How does that? Because I, do you know, there's a guy called James Smith, who's like an online PT, who's now got an actual brand. okay but he talks a lot about jiu-jitsu and marketing and some of the lessons he took from that was really interesting i'd love to know like what's i know we briefly and i thought it was a beautiful lesson on the by doing jiu-jitsu it gives you empathy to make you appreciate someone who's starting the struggle any any lessons on creativity because it feels like it is kind of

2:22:03Sat Bains:i've heard there is creativity but again i don't think you get to that level so you've become half decent so my coach is creative in his jiu-jitsu but he's already a black belt first down or whatever yeah so i think there's a point you've got to go to where you then the creativity may flow but because i'm being taught i'm quite rigorous with my understanding of the thing and i try not to be unorthodox but probably one of my stumbling blocks is i'm not being creative in it so what if I'm not applying what I do here there to allow me the flow because I'm too rigid I'm too I can't do that he's told me and don't forget with my cooking I was never given any rules because I only went to college I've never worked for anyone so I've been free so because of my creative output through my this work I've got to here I might need to start applying some creativity in my jiu-jitsu I like it well done

2:23:05Dan:no I hadn't even thought but I do think anything from jiu jitsu to just running leadership kitchens I know we talked about that but I think the only thing that I can tell them

2:23:15Sat Bains:that I've had a really hard day at jiu jitsu is I think empowering to them to know that I struggle yeah

2:23:21Dan:and then I just want to go just begin to wrap up on leadership specifically because you know I went to Lawrence's place last night oh yeah how was it fucking banging enjoy it really really good like love it did you say hello say hello yeah came out like got the um i got just a banging pie loads of chips yes perfect perfect yeah really really good lovely guy and and you know so i'm speaking to sap tomorrow he's like you don't understand he said he's worked at all these different kitchens he or he has personally i think he said amazing yeah yeah well yeah um because only this place is the one where i've got one genuine friends and he was basically saying you're one of the best mentors and leaders he's he's worked under you know a lot of people listen to this podcast who are not even in the industry they just listen for the like leadership lessons yeah because I think it's what this is is applicable to fucking anything yeah you know you'd hope so yeah yeah not just the fun times but what would you say are your sort of like how do you principles of leadership it's

2:24:25Sat Bains:it's hard you know I don't I don't write any of this shit down I just feel it yeah

2:24:29Dan:what do you feel when you

2:24:30Sat Bains:you've got to be genuine you've got to be honest and authentic yep and that will come through and shine through if you're fickle and you have ego and you are malice you're a cunt yeah because you are not genuinely looking after people you're just showing off your skills to say you're shit and we all did that when we were younger we all had to do that survival mode but as the age I am what I want from my future and what I want from my guys is I want to nurture and progress their futures because that is my obligation to our industry. I don't want to sit here going, fuck the rest, I don't care. That's what I've got as an obligation to my career is to push on the next generation to hopefully give them reasons to be better and keep pushing because there is a brilliant life to have had or be had from this industry.

2:25:26It's short, life is, grab it

2:25:30Sat Bains:and just be authentic. I think if you can do that, you know, someone deserves a good bollocking, they'll get a good bollocking. I'm not fucking afraid of that shit. Fuck HR. But it's for a reason.

2:25:42Dan:And what does that look like? Not as in the actual bollocking per se, but the, how do you do that without, as I said, it's almost like the hairdryer treatment, but he still has the respect. Because your intention is correct. Okay, that's it.

2:25:55Sat Bains:Because your intention is true. It's not like, I've had a shit day, I've lost it squash I'll come and fucking air dry these fuckers it doesn't make sense yeah you've got to check yourself all the time to say what's the reason why you're doing it someone's fucked up I get it made a mistake someone's fucked up again and they're just being clumsy they're not listening and they're not understanding because they're just I can't tolerate that because me correcting your shit is taking my time away from everyone else that's not fair because the biggest thing i will say is that you've also got to want to be here if you're a chef in an industry you've got to be want to be in your kitchen if you don't leave if you see that it's no potential for you to grow leave the reason i say that is because you'll be a lot harder to teach or train because you're already not you've already gone your investment's gone so as an investor i'm investing in you but if you're no longer wanting to learn i'm going to spend a lot of time with you going what's going on are you okay what should we do these fuckers here they're all there they don't get any of that because i'm spending all my time with you so you've sacrificed all their time time

2:27:10Dan:it's a common theme today what's the biggest mistake young michelin chefs make ambitious ones

2:27:18Sat Bains:i don't think it's michelin i think it's just chefs i think yeah you know you've also got remember it's not a race a friend of mine that passed away peter mills you say all the time it goes life's a journey not a destination and i used to love that because enjoy the journey because you don't know how long it is and i love that as you get older you start probably becoming a bit more philosophical but if there's so much more to it now there's enjoy the journey be nice on the way up be nice enjoy it but be true be honest be authentic but for me and amanda especially is we have the person that's in front of us, their career in our hands.

2:27:56Sat Bains:We've got to be authentic and honest. And if they need a help, they'll get help. If they need a bollocking, they'll get a bollocking. If they need nurturing, they'll get nurturing. But it's authentic. Hence, why have we got so many of our ex-chefs still in touch with us? We wouldn't... Yeah. You know, they can ring. So I'm passing through and popping in, I've got a problem. The phones, at the end of their speed dial, it's not the case that I'm this guy that doesn't talk to you. They're lifelong. that's the legacy that lives is they've always got accessibility to RSV.

2:28:26Dan:Yeah.

2:28:27Sat Bains:For the rest of their lives. Do you know what I mean?

2:28:28Dan:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:28:29Sat Bains:100%.

2:28:30Dan:Mate, it's been an absolute joy. Mate, thanks. Because I think, as I said, I came here as a customer and it was sit first, which was wonderful. And I saw this, you know, I call it gastronomic narnia. Some people call it, you know, Oasis, Disneyland for fucking adults, whatever you want to call it. But there is this sort of magic escapism from the customer side. what we got into today when I felt like but then from what I was seeing at your side this is like a world class Premier League football team of chefs and then you see that you saw me just cut it down the middle it's like behind the scenes like all this like role play everything thought about the energy keeping it moving and then that flows to the customer side it's just mate it's been a joy thank you so much pleasure thank you that was sick

2:29:12Sat Bains:no thank you man that was so so good thank you

2:29:17Dan:time fires when you're in the pod didn't it hey guys thank you so so much for watching this video hope you're loving the episode i appreciate a very small yet significant favor por favor please may you click the subscribe button get in the comments tell me what you think about the episode tell me you think we did on the show um it may not seem much but it really helps us grow and helps us get bigger guests thank you so much