Sir John Hegarty - Inside the Mind of Advertising G.O.A.T

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38:29And promote. And do you think most brands try and do one or the other? They're trying now. They've forgotten persuasion because digital companies, the social media companies have gone, you don't need to worry about all that persuasion stuff, all that broadcast advertising because you can be really efficient and you can just talk to the people who are going to buy your product. Isn't that fantastic and that's efficient and you're not wasting money? And of course, what that forgets is that all advertising, all brands are trying to build market share. They're trying to build more consumers. Even if somebody isn't going to buy your product, they can add value to it.

39:13One of the most important expressions, phrases about building brands is a brand is made not just by the people who buy it. but also by the people who know about it. Now, that is profound. That was on my, again. Yeah. That is something that the industry, big brands today have forgotten because a lot of big brands have been taken over by logical thinkers, left-brain thinkers. They're not about growing. They're not about expansiveness. They're not about showmanship. They're not about, hey, here I am, you know, great brands. You know, whatever you think of Elon Musk, and I'm sure we all have points of view about it, he's a showman.

39:58Yeah. And, wow, he's out there talking about, now, I think he's gone a bit off the rails at the moment, but, you know, creative value. But Richard Branson, very much the same. James Dyson, very much the same. You know, Steve Jobs, very much the same. Showman, get out there, talk about it, make it happen. And that sense of you've got to kind of do that as well as then promote. Yeah. Then as well, they've got these deals, you can get it there, we'll put that with it, we'll do that. That's promotion. And that's once I bought the brand, then yes. And the industry seems to have forgotten those two fundamentals, persuasion and promotion.

40:35They talk about, well, television doesn't work anymore, but television works in a different way. How so? Because it's a medium where you can sit back and enjoy it and listen to a message and be intrigued by something, as opposed to on your mobile phone, it's transactional. Yeah. Sorry, I'm doing that. Yeah, okay, 20 % off. Yeah, might do it. Oh, that's quite nice trousers. Yeah, okay, fine, boom. Yeah, the context of the message is super important. It's fundamentally important. Interesting. Fundamentally important. You know, I always say, you know, Michelangelo was the first great, not only art director but media director because he realized when he was going to have god making man he put him on the sistine chapel ceiling so you looked up ah there's god yes that's where he put god he didn't put him on the wall down there he put him up there the the bit i want to go back to john is when you said advertising is i think you said simple and deep or simple and profound simple and profound so when that simple message goes into someone's head like so i've interviewed Seth Godin a couple of times and he's one of my heroes and I asked him a question of like what what what makes consumers but I think the question was what was true about marketing 400 years ago about why people buy things and what will be true in 400 years time that was a question like the the timeless rules he said people will buy anything for three reasons status i does it give them status affiliation and connection so are we in you know orbit together and uh or freedom from fear so you know you're going to make a decision if there's a tidal wave coming you're going to get out there and and i'd love to explore that with you about how from your perspective writing those words or making that profound yet simple message how do you think about what's your version of that why do you think people do things well because i think i mean i have a phrase which is My one is, you know, principles remain, but practices change.

42:37Yes. Fundamental principles do not change. You know, I mean, if you want to look at humankind, I mean, we've, you know, people, you know, you can take very, let's call it 250 ,000 years. We've evolved. We've developed. And just because we've invented digital media in the last 25 years, humankind has not fundamentally changed. It is exactly the same. We've got wealthier. We've got more of that. We've got more things. We've got that. So those fundamentals don't change. But technology tries to convince you it has because it wants you to prefer that bit of technology versus that bit of technology, whatever it might be.

43:18So you have this sense of it's all different. You know, Gen Z, Gen Y, Gen F, Gen Z. It's all bullshit. It is total bullshit invented by research marketing companies trying to make clients feel insecure. And if you go into the background of those people, so what are their beliefs? You look at them and you go, you've just described an 18-year-old or whatever. And that's what I was like when I was 18. Somebody said to me the other day, they said to me, oh, you know, young people don't watch television anymore. I went, no, I didn't when I was 18. I didn't watch television. I was out. I was trying to meet as many women as I could possibly meet.

44:03I wasn't sitting in front of a television next to mum and dad. That's what they were doing. I wasn't. So this idea that it's all fundamentally, of course, certain things have influences. The use of the mobile phone has influences. Technology has an influence on us. but we haven't fundamentally changed and it's important to understand that there are three things we've been obsessed about since the beginning of time and that is access speed the future all right we've wanted to access more because that made us more secure i could get more food yeah that speed i want to get there faster so we got on a horse you know as opposed to you know we started out walking crawling then we walked then we ran then somebody said get on a horse you go even faster we went from an axe to a bow and arrow that went even faster from spear to a bow and arrow and so and then the future we've been always obsessed about the future what's going to happen tomorrow am i going to be able to feed myself you know our ancestors could track an animal They could look at a print and go, oh, that animal passed here about two hours ago, so I could track it and catch it.

45:20All right. If it's like, oh, no, that was three days ago, gone. So we've been obsessed with those three things since the beginning of time. We haven't fundamentally changed. Now, technology around us changes. We still want stuff faster. We want more. We want access to more. And we want to kind of understand the future. Access, speed. Speed, access, the future. Yes. Three things that we... I suppose that all three of those things ultimately link to survive for the fittest. It's our desire to survive. Survive. Survival. Understanding the future is survival. How do you think brands play a role in evolution?

45:58Well, when you say evolution, what do you mean by evolution? As in our desire to constantly... That idea is to constantly improve. Well, yeah, they make it easier for you. So I have a mobile phone. I'm connected. Yeah. I can connect to you faster and I can connect to more people. So it does two things, speed and access. Speed and access. It can't predict the future. We're still obsessed with that. People are trying to tell us they can predict the future. I remember somebody going, this was about six years ago now, there was a whole thing where Google had done some algorithms and they'd worked out that we were going to suffer from flu or something because people were buying more cough suites.

46:40And they're, well, look, I can predict the future. And I remember the senior marketing director of a very, very large, famous organization telling me and saying, John, it's amazing. We can now predict the future. And I'm working with Google on this. And we can look at the algorithms. Apart from the fact that I thought he was fucking stupid. I went, I saw, you know, he really had drunk the Kool-Aid. And obviously Google had done a very good job at selling him. And I said, so you can predict the weather. And he went, what do you mean? And I said, well, obviously the weather drives all kinds of purchasing decisions.

47:14You know, if it's raining, I buy an umbrella. If it's sunny, I buy an ice cream. And he kind of believed that they'd done it. But that's the one thing that, you know, always frustrates us. There are a lovely phrase which says there are no facts on the future. and um you know we we have people who are constantly we all the time prediction prediction i predict this i predict that we we you know i suppose ultimately the reason we want that prediction is a form of safety safety oh yeah of course i predict looking at the elephants sorry the leopards tracks i predict elephants coming it's like oh fuck me but if that elephant's coming i'm dead i'm dead yeah so get out yeah yeah yeah and i suppose our desire i've been reading a lot of um nasim celeb's book are fooled by randomness and it yeah he talks about exactly this about how predictions are a load of bollocks yeah yeah and he he tried i think there's someone who predicted the twin towers happening it's like are you fucking crazy but post post we post rationalize of course you do yeah i knew that was going to happen which why we watch the weather forecast every day it's a prediction you know now fortunately that one usually is right because you can get 24 hours ahead but we're obsessed with the future yes and of course therefore then you've got people who are going to go, oh, I know I can sell you the future.

48:33You know, I can sell you the answer to that. And of course, we're susceptible to it, which is why this guy was kind of working with Google and their algorithms and saying we could predict the future. Yeah, so future access, that's a really nice way of being a future, access and speed. Knowing those three basic human needs. Speed, access, future. How can brands manipulate that? Well, then you work within that. So what you're doing is, you know, you go to a supermarket, you access more food. You go on a holiday, you can access more fun. I've got more bars. They've got more of that. We're kind of obsessed with those things.

49:09Then they interpret them. They translate themselves in lots of different ways. And we want to get there faster, you know. I want to ask some really inane three-year-old questions because I think, but what would you say? What is an idea to you? An idea is a thought or plan formed by mental effort. That's a dictionary definition of an idea. An idea is a thought or plan formed by mental effort. I used to have it up in my office. So when somebody came in with a very sort of sloppy idea, I'd say, do you know what it says up there? It says mental effort. How much mental effort went into that? No, sorry, not many.

49:48Go away, come back again. Yes. So an idea is a way of changing people's minds. it's interesting so i've got this there's a great have you read the book the war of arts by stephen pressfield no oh my god one of the best books of all time but he talks about the war of art which is ultimately it's the he's got this idea of resistance and resistance is getting the way getting in your way of writing your book of doing your podcast of right you know doing your play and he says the goal is this reason it's the war of art is we have to beat resistance every single day and once we push and bludgeon our way through resistance the creative ideas come and they blossom and and that's your point about with mental effort yes with mental effort it takes me for that and some people are lazy you know we are naturally lazy yeah you know we are it's only survival which drives us not to be lazy because we we don't do something we'll i find i've yeah i can totally agree and so i think if we and i've got this thing with like Like sometimes when I'm right in the morning, it's really painfully hard.

50:49And it's just like, I can't be fucked to do this, but I do it every single day. And then I'll go on a walk or I'll be doing the tea and I'll get a tornado or a flood of ideas. How does that ever happen to you with your work? All the time. I mean, I always say. What is that in your opinion? Well, because what it is, is this goes back to, you know, part of the process of understanding your creative being, understanding that it's an expression of self. So the more stuff you're absorbing, it's going in. And then what happens when you come to have to solve a problem and you hit a bit of a roadblock?

51:26You've just got to switch off and let all that stuff that's gone in and go for a walk. And I always say I do my best thinking when I'm not thinking. And my brain, it pops in like that. That's an interesting idea. Or you see something, you go, that's very good. and that starts a process going. A conversation can start a process going. And that way you then get to a solution. But one, you've got to be allowing stuff to come in, read as many different things as you possibly can read, don't just go to art shows, don't do what everybody else is doing, do more than that, be curious. You know, they say Leonardo da Vinci was one of his geniuses, I mean the man was a genius, that he was very gregarious.

52:11He loved talking to people. He would see a craftsman, a tradesman doing something and he'd ask them, well, why did you do it like that? That's interesting. And he was fascinated. And that fascination drove his need to find out more and that drove his creativity. Didn't he work in really short bursts and then have breaks? No, it would vary, apparently, when he was painting The Last Supper. Yeah. They put benches out for people to come and watch him. and he might turn up for five minutes and not doing anything and go and then next day he'd be there for 12 hours you know and people would come and watch him he was yeah i like the idea of like yeah you know there's no it's not like an eight hour day it's when the it is funny there are two great um documentary series you one could watch one is the peter jackson movie on the beatles oh Oh, my God, yeah.

53:06You know, their album. And the other one is Rolling Stones' Exile on Main Street. Now, the Beatles, the French, oh, I'm a great Beatle fan. They turned up at 10 o 'clock, have a cup of tea, and sit down and start working and start playing. They stopped for something to eat at 1 o 'clock. Then at 2 o 'clock they went back, carried on working, finished at 5 o 'clock, went home. The Rolling Stones, and produced a genius album. Genius, genius. The Rolling Stones, on the other hand, they're in the south of France. Drugs everywhere. They were coming in and out. Nothing happened until about midnight.

53:48Then they'd get going and they'd finish at 9 o 'clock in the morning and all be kind of zonked. Chaos. Out of it, a genius album. there is no absolute right or wrong. It's what you feel you like doing. Who do you prefer, the Beatles or the Stones? I love them both. I mean, I thought, I suppose in the end, I think they're both just absolutely brilliant. I think in the end I admire the Beatles because they were able to go from one genre to another genre to another genre to another. They constantly reinvented. They reinvented. And that takes huge courage to go, I've done that. I'm not going to do that anymore.

54:33I'm going to do this. Picasso had that. Picasso went from, I'm not going to do cubism anymore. I've done it. Well, what's he going to do? I'm going to redo it. I'm going to paint a portrait like this. So he creates Dora Maar. And they all did it. It was only nine years. Nine years. That's what I find crazy. Well, it was slightly longer because, of course, they were in Berlin. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry, Hamburg, I should say. Hamburg, yeah. They were in Hamburg. Yeah. So they were kind of working together. And then you're quite right in a way. It was, you know, a 10-year period. But then I do say that most creative careers last 10 years.

55:08They have 10 years when they do their great work. And then if you're lucky, you're in an industry where you can go on repeating what it is you did in that wonderful flowering, flowering that great moment of creative expression, like music. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards wrote Jumping Jack Flash in, I don't know, it was 1968. They can go around the world singing it today and they'll be very successful. Now, the problem that you have is if you're in an industry, creative industry, where you have to come in every day and have a new idea. how do you solve that? so how do you go i'm going to go from a 10 year career to a 15 20 30 40 year career that's one of the big challenges how do you do that because i think well there are a number of longevity is something i want to be doing this for a long time well uh there are a number of things you can do it's in my little book on hegarty on creativity i talk about that yeah we read that and it i mean a number of them are one um stay curious yep that's fundamentally important uh surround yourself with great people it's inspiring uh only look at great work because if you read shit you'll think shit you'll create shit right that sounds very kind of elitist but i'm sorry what's the best what are your favorite books or like what i've got i keep reading amazing books i keep reading them.

56:36I don't, you know, I mean, I could go back and talk about. Yeah, I'd love to just know. Yeah, no, a book I love was written by a man called James Stevens, and it's called A Croc of Gold. I think you can just get it. A Croc of Gold. A wonderfully philosophical, mystical book. It's just, I thought, wonderful, wonderful. So don't become, you've got to be an optimist uh cynicism destroys creativity and there are a few more that you can do and if you indulge in those then or if you live by those things then you will extend your creative career but the trouble is it people become i don't know why it is they become cynical they become they they stop uh uh trying i suppose laziness sets in yeah i think curiosity is so important Curiosity, fundamentally important.

57:34Curiosity is like, to me, everything. It's just constantly be curious. Yeah. The one thing I wanted to ask you about is, with the Rolling Stones example, is kind of, you must have been part of that when they were in the zeitgeist. And I'd love to know what role you think alcohol has in creativity. The good, bad, or ugly? Because I think now we're at this place where people are like lambasting booze. And I don't know where I sit on that scale because I like a drink, but equally I've done time sober. And I don't know where I stand, but part of me thinks like Churchill won us World War II and he was smashing a bottle of whiskey every night.

58:12So I'd love to know what your thoughts are on that. There's a very good friend of mine, Stephen Bailey, and I remember having a conversation with Stephen about it, and he's a cultural commentator. And he said to me, there is no record of any great artist who didn't drink or take drugs or whatever. Now, I'm not advocating you do that. But I think creative people embrace life. And I don't think you – I wouldn't advocate drugs. You could argue alcohol is a drug. Okay. But you could – the sense of elevating yourself, the sense of taking yourself out of somewhere and going somewhere else, I think is very fundamental to the creative spirit.

59:06And I think because there is a generosity in creativity. Oh, I love that. But it's trying to embrace. It's trying to include you. Creativity doesn't want to even exclude people. Yeah. It wants to include. You know, you don't write a book and go, ah, I'm sorry, I don't want, you know, those people to read it. You want everybody to read it. You paint a picture, you want everybody to go and see it. You make a movie, you want everybody to go and see it. You don't go, oh, no, not for you. Pricing brands do that. Rolls-Royce doesn't want everybody to own a Rolls-Royce. Or Gucci doesn't want everybody to wear whatever it might be.

59:46But creativity wants to include. So I think that sense of generosity is there. And I think creative people in themselves are generous people. They're not narrow people. So I think some essence of opening you up, the spirit, communicating, relaxing, enjoying things is fundamentally important. And if that tends to involve, I talk about alcohol more than drugs, because drugs can be, you know, I don't smoke, but I don't consider a spliff to be a really serious drug. I think it does help people. Now, I am actually reading a brilliant book called Three Shades of Blue. It's about three genius jazz musicians, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Bill Evans.

1:00:40Right. And they all became heroin addicts. And that was unbelievably damaging. Yeah. And they, jazz musicians in the 50s did it because Charlie Parker was a heroin addict. Who's Charlie Parker? He was great. One of the all-time great jazz musicians. Developed a style of jazz called bebop. And his ability to play the saxophone, the alto, at a level which was like unprecedented. And it was because suddenly his brain was connecting in a certain way because of heroin that, you know, nobody had ever heard it like that before. And other people followed him. And that was, I think, in the end, very, very damaging.

1:01:27So, like, everything in life. It's interesting. On the Beatles side of things, when you listen to their discography, they're my favourite band. My mum's a Scouser as well, so there's something that really speaks to me. But the album, when they did all the, when they were basically off their nut on acid, essentially, but the way their music changed if you listen to it's all like happy happy at the beginning I want to hold your hand like Helter Skelter they basically pull the plugs out that one song creates death metal and it's just genius what's the one where they're pulling the synths and they're playing it back to front there was a lovely George Martin talks about kind of how he helped them create the sound and things like that But I just think it opened up ways of looking at things and thinking about things.

1:02:21But I think you've got to be in control of it. Yeah. The only thing I would say. And that's where danger occurs. But, hey, listen, if you're a racing driver, you know, you've got to go as fast as you possibly can. You might come off the track. You know, the difference between winning and losing is, you know, taking that corner at 200 miles an hour, you win. At 199 miles an hour, you lose. And at 201 miles an hour, you come off the track. Yeah. It's almost like voraciousness and like obsession are when it's very positive. And so, you know. And that can turn negative. That can turn negative. And you have to make the decision.

1:03:01You have to make the decision. what's like the 27 club uh jimmy hendrix kurt cobain amy weinhouse yeah it goes on doesn't it yeah it's interesting and then so that's like i'd say as kind of the elitist level of creativity it's sort of some of the best in the world beetles in terms of i was having lunch with rory sutherland the other week and he was talking i was talking about what was it like you know when people it was kind of the madman era of people going out on the slosh and he basically said a lot of people are sort of functioning alcoholics but well in terms of kind of in general with with booze and creativity what was that period like for you then versus now well I think there was in terms of you like getting boozed up no but I think there was a conviviality yes okay that's a word yeah you know people sort of say oh you went out for long lunches we did and we talked and we talked about ideas and we talked about what are you doing and why you're doing and out of that came thoughts ideas it came ways of doing things excitement and i think just look at the work the work is you know a thousand times better than all those people who sit in front of a screen and have a a pret sandwich for lunch and you know so you know let the work do the talking yeah so almost it's like you know you're saying creativity is generosity being in those generous convivial environments.

1:04:26It inspired you. You talked about the difference between persuade and promote. Because we've lost the long lunches, we're obsessed with promotion, but we can't do persuading. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. And I think what's happening is there's a kind of the Taliban thinking has taken over. You know, you mustn't do this, you mustn't do that, you mustn't be this, you know, trying to tell you how to behave. You know, it's like language. We're now in a situation where people get offended by certain words. And these people are like the Taliban. And I was very interested. I'll tell the story, actually.

1:05:05I was just about four months ago, maybe a bit longer. Anyway, and I was caught up by the BBC and they produced it. they were going to do a documentary series on denim. Part of it was going to be the selling of denim, which they contacted me because of the famous Levi's campaigns. Anyway, we were having a lovely conversation. And this female producer said to me, so when you sold Laundrette, how did you go about selling it? because it's a very profound idea and changed all kinds of things. And I said, well, actually, when you look at it, I explained there is a thing called advertising is 80 % idea, 80 % execution.

1:05:58Most creativity is like that. Now, my maths, I was never very good at maths, but I can tell you that makes 160%, which is nonsense. And we were talking about it. And I said, well, if you look at Laundrette, it was a very, very simple idea. Guy walks into a laundrette. He takes his T-shirt off. He takes his jeans off. He puts them into a washing machine with some stones. And he sits down next to a great big fat man. And she said, oh, you can't say fat man. And I said, why? So it's not acceptable. So now I'm being truthfully. What I should have said, but I was so stunned by this. I thought, what?

1:06:42And so I walked away saying, so should I have said clinically obese? Because technically he was clinically obese. That was part of the joke. Or I should have said to her, so if you can't say fat, you can't say thin. And if you can't say thin, you can't say average. How dare you define me as average? I'm special. And I walked away thinking, these people of the new Taliban, they have decided the word fat is wrong. On what basis? So you can't say fat swaller anymore. Or fat boy slim, he does both, of course. So you've got that. So it's this way that society sometimes develops this belief system that some things are wrong and some things are right.

1:07:30Some things can be offensive. Of course they can be. And you shouldn't do it. But her answer to that should have been, Well, I wouldn't have said fat. I would have said this. And then you have a debate about it. That's fine. But to immediately say, I am banning this word. I'm banning that. And it's happening. And we live in a society where freedom of expression, without being offensive, without trying to be offensive, is being challenged. And I think that's hugely dangerous. Yeah, it's incredibly dangerous. and I think it's I think I'd love to know how you think that's impacted sort of creativity I feel like people because I know you know I write this newsletter and I write I've had a few things where people have sort of kicked back some stuff I've said and I try and you know I love the word irreverent and that's why I try and write in a kind of a really like Tom Wolfe was one of my biggest inspirations and I love you know so the way he writes I he's a massive inspiration Huntress Thompson and so it's a bit weird but I love it and it's my style but some people kick off with it or and I'm like just unsubscribed that's that's cool but don't go on a big you know don't you you've taken offense that's your problem yeah don't take offense they're like yeah you need to do a public apology I haven't said you should go out and shoot somebody I haven't been I haven't been discriminatory in the sense of saying you know that person's better than that person because as they've got long hair, short hair, brown hair, red hair, wiry hair, whatever kind of hair.

1:09:00You know, and that would be appalling, obviously. But when you say, you know, you've described somebody in a certain way or you've used a certain word, as long as you're not trying to offend the person, then don't take offence. You know, context is fundamentally important. But also language carries with it a kind of understanding I understand what you're saying. So suddenly turning around saying you can't say fat anymore, well, how would I describe this person? Clinically obese? It's a kind of weird world we're living in, and I think it has affected creativity because you can see people afraid to do certain things.

1:09:46And I think that... All the films, they're just done 28 weeks later. That's right, yeah. So it started off with 28 days later, 28... 28 years later, is it? Yes, 28 years later, sorry. It's like everything's a repeat because people are too scared to actually put their neck out on the line. Hollywood is decimated now. Oh, well, Hollywood is fearful and being cancelled. And I think this sense of cancelling somebody because you disagree with them is... It's hugely dangerous. It's huge. And I do, you know, I do admire those who stand up for it. I mean, you know, Salman Rushdie, God bless him, nearly paid for his life because he said something that other people got offended at.

1:10:29And how dare you get offended? That's your problem. What was the last thing you radically changed your mind on? Oh, wow, that's a big question, that. What have I radically changed my mind on?

1:10:45I think Portuguese wine. Right. Really, really good. I tasted some wine from the Douarou Valley. Absolutely fantastic. I was really, really impressed with it. And I thought, wow, this has come on leaps and bounds since I last tasted it. So that's one thing. I don't know there's anything I have. I mean, it sounds terrible to say fundamentally changed, radically changed. It would be something quite superficial that I've kind of changed my mind about. I've been fairly consistent. I was lucky in that going to art school and being exposed to very, very smart, talented, interesting, witty people with a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

1:11:34I was imbued with that fairly early on and it stays with you. so you don't find yourself sort of changing that much you don't find yourself going oh wow yeah i used to believe this i now believe that i'm you know i believe you know maybe donald trump's right or whatever no yeah it could even be something about more sort of tactically in the business world in terms of less sort of so for example with me um so i agree i've got my values how about how i want to do things personally in the world if you like it or you don't see you later mate if you like it so if you don't like it let's have a pint or a drink if you do but if in sort of business so with the thing I radically changed my mind on with the podcast was the importance of packaging and titles right so for ages I was like just put the content out there put the content out there put the content out there and we'll figure it out and then actually now I'm like okay doesn't you can have the best video in the world if it's not packaged correctly on YouTube and it's not got you know got the titles and stuff so I've now hired someone who's based in LA who runs a massive podcast who helps us do that is there anything in the sort of maybe more of the business world or marketing world that you've changed your mind on not necessarily radically as well but just change your um it sounds terrible when I say not really I funny I've just done I do these on LinkedIn I I have um your LinkedIn is incredible I do write all that yeah I do yeah I do a couple each week I just do a provocation I've just done one on and this isn't changing mine, but this is how business has got to change.

1:13:06And people always used to say to me, John, do you have a five-year plan? And I said, no, I have a five-minute plan. Because I can't predict what's going to happen tomorrow. But what I can, the way I can guarantee tomorrow is to make today so amazing, so fantastic, what I'm doing now. And that will give me the freedom to do more tomorrow. That's the way I viewed it. And I was reading a thing, it was on the weekend, it was either the Sunday Times Business Review or the Observer business, that there is a business advisor saying, forget the five-year plan. The world is changing so fast that if you have a five-year plan, forget it, because tomorrow it'll be completely different.

1:13:49And what you're doing is you're trying to focus on something that isn't going to happen. And then you'll miss the opportunity that's coming up in front of you, which you'll say, well, it doesn't fit in with my five-year plan. So what's the point in having a five-year plan? I love that. That's really cool. I think that's not quite an answer to your question, but it is something that I used to say this and people used to say, oh, John Bean, just a typical creative person would say that, wouldn't he? And now business people are saying, forget the five-year plan. Who could have thought of – who would have predicted COVID?

1:14:25How did that change your business? So I think we live in – their point was too, We're living in a world which is moving faster and faster and faster. And that ability to predict is disappearing. But what you can do is create something amazing today that that will give you the right to be there tomorrow. Yes. What are some of the brands right now that you believe are doing that? I think I talked about Oakley as a great brand. The oat milk company did a fantastic job at creating that. I think on running, brilliant. I mean, they're literally 10 years old, and I think what they're doing is absolutely incredible, fantastic shoes.

1:15:12I mean, but there's a great lesson there too in how you build a phenomenal company. They've certainly done that. Which is? You start with a point of view, a difference, and then you build on that difference, and the difference was their kind of sole their running sole which is is i think it's like uh inner tubes of of yeah i know exactly what it is we can get up on the streets and that and that that gave them a point of difference uh and from that difference they employed design and aesthetics and created a great logo great name on running on you know and they built it from there but it has a solid foundation it's not just a shoe i believe there's like shallow points of difference and deep points of difference and i think so many people have shallow points of difference and they think oh my god we're so different but it's not a deep point of difference is something like the yeah that's fundamental that's what why do you think so many people get stuck with shallow points of difference and can never get to deep point they don't they don't how do you go dive deep they don't understand that you've got to have something that is simple and profound that is driving the way your company works.

1:16:25So if you look at the great companies, that's what they had. It was embodied in a person or it was embodied in their product. I mean, we talked about James Dyson. It was the bagless technology. In a vacuum cleaner, you look at Steve Jobs in creating a computer for everyone, because you remember, you know, we're talking, his famous commercial of 1984, please play it, was about big brother isn't in control anymore. You now have the right. And that was the idea of it. It was IBM versus Apple. Now, you know, that's changed. So they had a purpose. They had a point of view. They understood what it is they were doing.

1:17:07Look at it in food. It's organic or it's made like this or whatever it might be. It has a profound point of view that you build the company on. Even though you go off and do lots of different things, That essential ingredient is always still there. I mean, Volkswagen was built on brilliant observation made in the early 60s by Bill Birnbach, which is it's ugly, but it works. And that drove their thinking. Why was Bill Birnbach such a genius? Well, it was the right time, right moment. He was a great creative thinker. He was an outsider. How so? Well, he was Jewish in New York, in a city that was very waspish.

1:17:51The advertising business was a very wasp business. When you say wasp as in? You know, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. They call them that in America, wasps. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. And if you were outside of that, I mean, Kennedy becoming president was amazing. He was a Catholic. That was one of the big issues. You know, you think about it. What's that got to do with anything? But that's the way life works. So he's an outsider. But I think, by the way, lots of great creative people are outsiders. And it gives you the ability to look in. How are you an outsider? How was I now? Well, my parents were Irish.

1:18:26I was born in London. Whereabouts? In Edgware. And then I lived in Mill Hill, Mill Hill East, Finchley and all around there. But I think what it gave me was I realised there was a kind of an Irish way of being. and then I'd leave the home and my other friends would be, you know, around me. And I realised it was different and you became an observer and you observed it. And it was, I thought back about it, I thought about wonderful language and we had wonderful, my aunt who lived with us, who was from Cork as well. And she would say things in such an amazing way and I never heard anybody say things like that.

1:19:08You know, a phrase of her is, life's not worth living once you're dead. And I remember my brother and I looking at each other, hang on a minute, I'm just trying to work this one out. Yes. Oh, Nora, could you just talk me through that one again? Life's not worth living once you're dead. And it was a wonderful way of saying something. So you were aware of that sort of use of words. Then you went outside and you heard words used in a different way. And I think it helps your creativity. Do you still feel like an outsider? No, but if you're born with that, it gets into the system. It doesn't leave you.

1:19:49I don't feel that now. But I suppose in a way you could argue that when I came into the creative industries, that creativity was seen as a sort of, well, I suppose we ought to have it in a way. So in that sense, you're an outsider, trying to convince people of the power and the need. Yeah, it's so interesting what you're saying. Why do you think people, and this is what I was speaking to Ben about downstairs, and sorry for listening, it's your co-founder of Garage Soho, is we were sort of saying that with the business creativity, your other business is, I don't know how we've got to the situation where they don't see it as a tool, that they see it as this kind of ethereal, I don't know, why have we got to that situation?

1:20:33Because they don't understand it. What do they not, what's the common misconception? Well, they can't define it. Ah. They don't understand there are two types of creativity, pure and applied. And if you don't, nobody in life wants... What's different from pure and applied? Well, pure creativity, there are two types. I'll go back over that. Yeah, go back over it, yeah. Two types of creativity, pure and applied. Now, what's pure creative? Pure creativity is painting the Mona Lisa. Yep. Right? Thinking up the Simpsons. Yep. Matt Groenig, or whatever his name is, brilliant idea. Or designing the Guggenheim in New York.

1:21:07Pure creativity, out of the mind of Frank Lloyd Wright, this amazing building. Applied creativity is writing the 32nd episode of The Simpsons. I've got the characters. I know what they're all doing. Now my job is to kind of keep them interesting, keep the plots fascinating, driving it. That's applied creativity. Working out how the staircases function in the Guggenheim in New York. You're applying creativity to that. We've got to work like that. That's aesthetically got to be in sympathy with that. That's applied creativity. And they tend to be two different types of creative person who do that.

1:21:48Not completely. It's not a science this. It's not an either or. But they tend to be. And so, you know, the pure creative people don't want to work in a group. You know, don't want to come in and sit around with a brainstorm session. Applied creativity is, well, yeah, we work in a group. We get, you know, influences. You know, you're designing the, you know, you're talking about the characters in The Simpsons and maybe Marge could do this. And maybe you could talk about that. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. Maybe that. What about this? What about that? Or you're designing the staircases in the Guggenheim and somebody goes, well, you could reform concrete like this and we could twist it like that.

1:22:30Oh, that's interesting. so they tend to be different people right and it's very important in the creative process of understanding that to know how to employ people because you're trying to employ them by and large brainstorm sessions are a waste of time they never really why do you think yeah what i've sat in them before and i'm just like this is pointless but i think what i was saying you should we should just go on a four-hour lunch break and go look at some weird shit and yeah That's the way to actually do it. But you see, that sounds irresponsible. I know, it does, yeah. Because you've got left-handed brain people running things, and they would view that as irresponsible.

1:23:06Right-hand brain, that's a really good idea. Maybe we should go and just look at some weird shit and talk about it. Yeah. And that might come up with an idea. But go back to your original question. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Why do you... Because there's one thing you have to learn in life. Nobody wants to look stupid. All right? So if somebody walks into a boardroom of a company and goes, I'd like to talk to you about creativity. Everybody will draw back, oh, I don't know about this. I don't understand it really. And I can't define it. I can't. So they're going to reject it. No, no, we don't. We don't need that.

1:23:40So once you understand something, you engage with it. You know, I always say to people, you understand dentistry. You know, I don't have to explain it to you. You understand it. You get toothache, you go and see a dentist. Brush your teeth a bit more. Dental hygiene. You're less likely to need to go to the dentist. You understand it. If I say to you creativity, even the creative people, I say define creativity for me. They get it wrong, but they just feel it, but they haven't defined it. So it's very important to define something. So when you're in a business kind of environment, it's important that business people understand, oh, I see.

1:24:17That's what you mean by creativity. Right. Now I understand. I can define it. I'm not going to look stupid. if I ask a question. What do you say to them in terms of the definition in a business sense? Oh, I say it's an expression of self. Right. And then I say to them, starting a business is a creative act. Yes. You have to have an idea. Yes. What are you going to make? What's it going to look like? What's it going to sound like? What's it going to... These are creative acts. And the other way I go in is because you've all got to find the way the door in. What door do I go in? I say to them, if I'm in a business meeting and I'm talking about...

1:24:50I say to everybody, right, All right, hands up, please, everybody who believes in innovation. Everybody's hand goes up. I say, thank you. So you all believe in creativity because creativity is at the heart of innovation. All right? I go back to two types of creativity, pure and applied, right? Innovation. So you've got to find a way of a door in. And this is what I'm doing with the business of creativity, helping businesses understand that creativity isn't something to be fearful of or something that, well, occasionally we do it. It is crucial, fundamental to your business and its future, and especially in an AI world.

1:25:31Because what's going to happen with AI, I would say two things about AI. First of all, it democratizes opportunity, right? Now everybody can do it. Any question you want, it can answer it. No longer does Unilever have all the answers to that. You don't. That's gone. So in fact, actually size now is a problem because you can't respond fast enough. So there's that. It's democratized opportunity. The second thing is think of it not as a tool but as a collaborator. You collaborate with it. So now everybody is a creative director. You're a creative director. And what you have to do is drive it. You have to say, no, that's not right.

1:26:13That could be better. That isn't very good. I think we need to use a bit more imagination here. Think about it like this. and it will come back and it might answer you. Yeah, it's the, I was speaking to, who was I speaking to about this? But he was saying, someone was saying on the pod, the word hospitality needs a rebrand because it's actually, hospitality could be McDonald's hospitality, but then the Mishan-style restaurant on the road's hospitality. And we were saying the same with artificial intelligence. It should be called like co-intelligence or. Yeah, well, it is called artificial. Remember that we forget it's called artificial.

1:26:44So I say, so now imagination becomes fundamentally important. So unless you understand how to engage with that, unless you understand how to act with it, then you are going to be at a major disadvantage and your business is going to move forward. Talk to me about Paul Smith and your relationship with him. What's he taught you about creativity? Well, I think the great thing with Paul Smith, the fashion designer, is he's got that wonderful combination of business, like Charlie did, Charles Saatchi, business and creativity. He understands how to link the two together. And that's quite unusual because often you have a partner who does that.

1:27:26You know, you look at a lot of fashion designers and they have a partner who does that. Paul has done it on his own, which is just brilliant, with his wonderful wife, Pauline, of course, which we shouldn't forget. But I think what he's got is he's got that ability, that childlike ability to stay connected and that ability to have fun. And I think it feeds into everything he does. And I gave a talk last year at IKEA, and it was brilliant. And I was there. They were having an away day, and they'd invite all kinds of people. They wanted me, obviously, to talk about creativity. And they had done this piece of research on play.

1:28:09And they had something like three child psychologists there. And one of them was from Exeter University, and she was absolutely brilliant. And she talked about play and the fundamental importance of play in developing personality and character. And when she meant play, she didn't mean a game of football or whatever, but with rules, she meant, you know, without rules, no boundaries, play. And that's how children learn. That's how they understand how to relate to each other. That's how they kind of develop social skills. Fundamentally important. And what she was saying was, and we want you to take that into your adult life.

1:28:49And sadly, we don't. And I don't mean that we all sit around and throw it. I know what you mean. But a free-ranging conversation. Back to that lunch. Yes. When you went to lunch, there wasn't an agenda, by the way, this is lunch and we're going to talk about these four points. It was a lunch and you just let it roam. And that is fundamentally important to your well-being. And what they were saying, these child psychologists were saying, the sadness is we don't take that into our adult life. And that's, I think, something that Paul Smith has been able to do. He's not childish, he's childlike, if that's the right way around.

1:29:25That's a really good way of putting it, yeah. He's childlike in the sense of he's always inquisitive. He's always fascinated. And he makes everybody feel around him good because he's playing and everybody feels good when they're playing. What would you say his point? You know, we talked about having a point of difference and the pure creativity. What would you say his is? I would say he's got one thing. He talks about classic with a twist. I always say to him, no, no, no, no, Paul. It's about you have a sense of humour. you introduce a sense of humor so you'll have fun and your clothes brilliantly styled beautifully crafted beautifully made but there is a sense of fun in them you know and um you can see it in his personality and the way he puts fabrics together the way he he makes certain things happen or he puts that shirt with this suit or that with that and that and he's got that sense of fun that sense of kind of enjoyment.

1:30:22It's not... And that's the expression of self. And that's the expression of him. Yes. When you meet him, you'll see why he does what he does. The other sort of, is it Thomas Berthwick in the book that you talk about who designed the London buses? Oh, Thomas Heatherwick. Heatherwick, sorry. Thomas Heatherwick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. What a similar sort of question is what's, how's his, what's he sort of taught you about creativity? I think... He did the London buses. He did. He did do the new Rootmaster, yeah. And he did the Olympic torch. He did. He's done all, I mean, brilliant, brilliant work.

1:31:01I think what he wants things to be, he has this thing about beauty. Right. And about how something makes you feel. Yeah. And he talks about it. He's just done a book about how a building, it isn't just a functional object. It isn't there just to, it's there for people to look at and feel good around. and he talks about beauty and how beauty infects you which i think is very and that's what drives him and it's it's just great i think he's genius he wrote the book blandemic didn't he yes right yeah yeah yeah but bland things are just you know they're not they're not adding anything back yeah it's like we look at a beautiful tree and we see the light coming through it and we go wow that's beautiful isn't it that's lovely well a building in a sense should be yeah doing similar things a few more things john yeah then we've got to go yeah we've got to go but i'm absolutely love this conversation um one thing i absolutely love from the book if i can find it was when you say uh process is trying to make order of chaos creativity is trying to make chaos to create order they are opposite ends of the spectrum talk to me about that well this is very i i'll do it I got a question, and the question was from the audience.

1:32:21What's the difference between a designer and an art director? Right. That's a very good question. And I said, the difference is this. A designer is trying to create order out of disorder. Wait, sorry. A designer is trying to create order out of disorder, so it looks beautiful, it's elegant, it works, it's that. The colors are all beautiful, and I can see if it's signage you're doing. I can see the signage. I can work my way around the airport. Yes, I see that. Trying to get order out of disorder. That's what designers often do, whereas an art director is trying to create disorder out of order because an art director is kind of like he's got, she got, he's got, she's got one opportunity to hit you, so I've got to do something very different.

1:33:15So I'm not trying to create order. I'm trying to stand out. And that's the difference between an art director and a designer. So a designer, their movement would be the kind of Swiss type style movement. All right? Swiss styles. Yeah, it was kind of universe type faces like that. It was called the Swiss style movement. And art directors would be punk. they'd go punk because they're trying to blast it apart put it apart and stand out what do you say you are on that well i'm hopefully i'm i was an art director so i was all my advertising was always trying to stand out i was competing with everybody as a designer you're not necessarily competing you're competing with aesthetics now an art director has aesthetics but the aesthetics are like punk i'm trying to get it to blow up i'm trying to get you to notice it so So that's the way I've always described it.

1:34:09Now, people don't always agree with that, but that's fine. Beautiful. John Ruskin, there can be no beauty without truth. I also like to believe there can be no profit without truth. Yes, that's very good, that. Talk to me about that. Well, I think at the core of creativity is truth. and there's a wonderful if you want to read it there's a man called boris groys g-r-o-y-s and he he's at new york state universities he sort of teaches creative studies there he's written a brilliant brilliant piece and it's called truth in art truth in art truth in art it's not long it's an article yeah you know in fact actually just read the first two paragraphs it's genius He's brilliant.

1:34:58And basically what he says is that if art doesn't contain a truth, then the power moves from the creator to the observer. So in other words, it just becomes I like it, I don't like it. It doesn't hold me like a piece of design or a piece of interior design. And in a sense, we all want power. And truth gives you power, as Ruskin said. Truth gives art power. And I think, here's my thought. You know they say, what is the meaning of life? Now, if you've read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it's the, finally they got it, and it's the number 42, which is wonderful. Well, I think it is the seeking of truth.

1:35:51We're all, that is the meaning of life. apart from reproducing and keeping the species going and having fun. The Greek philosophers had that. I think the other one is we're here to seek the truth. And in art, truth gives you power. Any examples of that? Well, every great piece of art. Guernica. Yeah. No, I mean in brands. So say Camden Town Brewery. Camden Town Brewery, yeah. What was the truth in that? The truth in that, we come from Camden Town. Yes. And everything that represents, we are going to be truthful to Camden Town. Yes. That wonderful place of, you know, that launch commercial we did for them, which was about Camden, about the kind of place it is, that's who we are as a brand.

1:36:34It oozes into the brand. It goes into the brand. You know, great brands are, that's their truth. What is your truth? It is fundamentally important, especially in where we're, concert being told we live in, you know, a fake world and fake news. A couple more questions. what's one sentence you'd want on your gravestone? Timing's everything in life. I just ran out of it. So that's beautiful. That is so good. And then this is a question I ask to all guests. What's one truth you believe that most people would disagree with you on? Oh, gosh, that's a good one. That most people, God, that's a hard one.

1:37:12Dan, that is really difficult. What's one truth? Because I tend to be around people I like and know and we tend to roughly kind of agree on things. I'm going to be a bit contentious here and not say that. Answer it however you want. I'm going to answer this in a completely different way. I am completely confused about why people believe in religion and why they think... You know, I'm often told when people say, oh, I'm a religious person and faith is very important to me. I kind of go, well, why do you believe in a book, you know, when they talk about the Bible, that's so full of the most appalling things in the world?

1:37:55Why should I hold that up as a means of a way of living my life? I don't understand it. And they say, well, what do you believe in? And I say, I believe in the creative being, the ability to create and make beautiful things. And that's why I admire William Shakespeare. He didn't write once about religion. He wrote about the human condition, why you read Milton or why Wordsworth or the great poets. Those are the people that I think we should follow, not some inane book that tells me my God's better than your God. And I think that's – but most of my friends are not religious. So I'm answering your – I'm not really answering your belly.

1:38:47No, it's interesting. I think just – I've got a – I think one of the best things you've ever – I think I listened to a talk you did in Paris where you talked about, like, the best brand is the Catholic brand. Oh, yeah, brilliant brand. You could just quickly go through that and then we'll wrap this up. Because it's just – Phenomenal. Well, I think it's your masterpiece. It's wonderful. I do love irreverence. It's one of my things. Yeah. And I was in New York where I was on a panel. And I lived there for two and a half years, setting BBH up. And I was in, I think it was somewhere in, might have been Denver or Colorado.

1:39:18Anyway, it doesn't matter. I was on this advertising panel. And a question from the audience came up. So what's the world's greatest brand? And I kind of, I was lucky. I was the last one to go. There were about four people in front of me. And they came up with Coca-Cola and talked about the brilliance of it. just called, well, somebody talked about BMW, somebody talked about Nike back then, and it was, Apple was being talked about, and they said, so John, what about you? And I said, no, I think they're all great brands. For me, they're not the greatest brand. The greatest brand in the world is the Catholic Church.

1:39:54And of course, you're in America, there's a sort of slight, ooh, steady, John, steady, you know. And anyway, I didn't care I was in. I said, so think about it. World's greatest logo, brilliant sign of the cross, absolutely fantastic. It could have been, you know, it could have been a carpenter's plane. Jesus was a carpenter. Could have been a fish because the fishermen, the apostles and all that. But no, they went for the cross. And then the genius is they nailed the founder to the cross. What a brilliant idea. Then they put him on the top of every building logo up there. Fundamentally, they went straight away to, they went global straight away.

1:40:31None of this kind of when do we go global. Seven-day opening. What do you mean you close? You don't do that. Diversified, christenings, weddings, funerals. Moved it on, get you in. And, of course, location, location, location. Biggest building in the centre of the town, the village, wherever it was. That was it. You know, understood that. And worked with the greatest artists, worked with the greatest painters, to propagate the church, to propagate the church. Had to go there once a week, you know, just to reaffirm your faith, just like people go to an Apple store today. You know, I worship at the temple called Apple.

1:41:09Catholic Church was there before. Through the line thinking, church was built on the sign of the cross, east-west, you know, the sunrises, you know, that. And just absolute genius, the greatest brand ever. And saw off a bit of competition, you know, The Puritans came along and Seventh-day Adventists and whoever they might be, they're okay. Every brand has a bit of competition. Nike had a few competitions. Nothing like the Catholic Church. 2 ,000 years old, still going strong. And what were they selling? Faith. A very modern brand. Because so often we're buying things today that you can't see. I can't see my bank anymore.

1:41:54I have to believe it's there. I use, you know, I'm on Vodafone. It's vibrating air. I can't see Vodafone. I can't see Google. I can't see Facebook. I don't know building. It's none of that. Very modern brand. They were selling faith, belief. Brilliant, brilliant. Greatest brand ever. And all the lessons are there. John, final thing. I've got you some books, some of my favourite books on creativity and writing. I'm going to give you off this. But I'd love to know. I love reading. I know you don't mention The Croc of Gold. Any other real poignant books that you just think of? Everybody must read it.

1:42:31It's just come out. It's called Your Brain on Art. Your Brain on Art. Yep. And it's just come out. And it basically is written by a neuroscientist and another lady who works at Google, fantastic designer and that. And basically what they're saying is we are wired to be creative. and that if you don't understand that, it's harming your well-being. And they talk about how creativity helps our well-being. They have brain plasticity. It helps trauma. It helps our physiology. They talk about all these things that it actually does. So I want people to read that, your brain or not. And I describe it like, you know, 60 years ago, I said I was going to a gym.

1:43:17Everybody would think, oh, my God. he's trying to be Arnold Schwarzenegger for God's sake you know now there's a gym on every street corner as we've understood the need to stay fit the next big thing is going to be understanding creativity and they talk about this about how it's good for you it helps you live longer that was an absolute joy thank you so so much pleasure Dan great stuff thank you so so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes, next door, but one cat dog, whatever.

1:44:01Please tell everyone about this podcast. It means the world to me. And I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of, of challenger food and drink brands. Please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope, and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much