The 11 BIGGEST Lessons from 4.5 Years Podcasting - Every Food & Drink Founder Should Have These Tattooed on Their Arm

0:01Bwagwan people, hope you are amazing. um so this week we're doing things slightly differently i'm actually doing a solo poddy um the 11 biggest lessons from four and a half years of podcasting yeah it's been four and five years which is absolutely wild i really believe every single challenger food and drink brand should have these lessons and principles tattooed on their body tattooed on their dairy oil and if you're feeling very fruity maybe on your uh as a tramp stamp why not the challenge brand tramp stamp if you're extra extra hungry so we're gonna go into stuff that the far of lucky satan has taught me giles brooke who did so many brands he was an innocent um invited cocoa bear snacks i mean he's done every brand under the fucking sun david hyatt from hyatt jeans gorgeous lessons um julian metcalf from prattamandre and itzu um james watt brew dog there's just tons in this alex smith the strategy sensei rory sutherland of course he's a massive um massive guest on the poddy james bailey seer of waitrose and a couple more um so yeah because basically it's been four four years since we started this thing and um i've never ever really sat down and thought okay what are the actual biggest lessons from the show what are the ones that really resonate with me what ones I use the most and um I think if I find them helpful you will most certainly find them helpful as well we're going to roll completely off the cuff on this um the reason being is I was meant to have a podcast today I got up at 5 a.m nice and early um I drove all the way up to Chelsea with my editor spent about four fucking hours setting up this new studio slash new uh software we've got no sorry new software like cameras and stuff looks like doctor who star star wars sort of stuff like you could probably take flight with it anyway spent ages setting that up get there and they're like oh my god i'm so sorry about um the gas isn't actually in london today we thought it was on film and i'd literally said like i i put i put this in the email like two days before been like we we're doing it at this location this is addressed um and so i don't actually have a podcast this week that's another reason i'm doing it and um we were putting in place like we've got loads of other big podcasts in the locker but didn't um have time to get it all sorted so this is what we're doing this week very off the cuff as they say

2:45so numero uno is by luke bows the founder of lucky saint and also um i think emma hill uh emma actually taught this to luke it's something that sticks with me every single day as i think i've used yesterday i will use um tomorrow i will use it indefinitely entrepreneurship is everything is the feeling that everything is coming together and falling apart at the same time oh my god this couldn't be more true and i think this will resonate with everyone like the absolute moment that things are going wrong the absolute moment that everything's going pete's on the absolute moment you feel like giving up like literally behind the corner behind there's a whole sort of meme of the person digging he's so close to the gold that the gold and the opportunity is literally right there and i think you just got to get comfortable with the feeling that when things are going badly things are actually going to go good as well and it's getting used to that sort of bipolarness of running a business like the other week i literally had a call i think i've announced it now i had a call with a sponsor and they you know couldn't continue for the the year as we parted ways it was really sad and i was proper down literally on the car back from the gym i get a call from uber eat's been like mate we're good to go obviously the worst way to celebrate a new deal meant instead of playing it cool i was like Fucking come on, boy.

4:02Let's go write down the phone to the bloke, which was, yeah, I should learn to keep it cool going forward. But yeah, I think it's getting used to the feeling that everything is coming together, but it will feel like it's falling apart. There's a great quote by David Senra, who does the Founders Podcast. I think it's something, I'm going to probably butcher this, but it's like, opportunity is a strange beast. It often occurs right after a loss. And I think it's really important to remember that when you're losing, appreciate like you've got to go down to go up. And I think Adam Ballon from Innocent said, you know, when you're losing, you're probably going to lose in threes.

4:39So if you're having a bit of a shitter, keep on bludgeoning your way forward. So that's Luke Bowes from Lucky Saint. This one's Giles Brooke. I think it's a truism for every single Chandra brand. And it's you need a 40 % gross, sorry, true gross margin. Now, gross margin is quite nebulous. And people can shove their sort of numbers all around the P &L and basically lie to themselves about how much gross margin they're actually making. True gross margin is less trade marketing spend. So anything you're spending on trade and less media spend. um you've got to factor that and he's also saying factor in stuff like your cost of acquisition if you're on d2c um really put everything in there so you've got a true gross margin so if you don't have a gross margin a true gross margin of 40 you don't have a challenger brand you can't build the team um and you're basically going to get into a sort of situation you've seen so many brands go into where it's like you're constantly having to raise money and you just don't have a sustainable business so true gross margin 40 listen to the podcast with him if you want more on this there's there's tons this is another one which i love the journey this is from giles as well the journey doesn't get easier it gets different oh my god like when i started the podcast four years ago i thought right four years in if you were to tell me the situation i'm in now you know we've just got a massive sponsor we've got some it's it's amazing getting guests like it's it's still just as hard as when i was doing it on my ones it's just the challenges are completely different the challenges you're going through as a challenge a brand you may be on a market stall in i don't know saint albans saint albans feels like a sort of place that would do loads of fucking market stalls saint albans or bognor regis something like that on a um where you're hand making the stand or you're going to taste of london and you spunked half your money to go to taste of london and it's stressful and you're hustling and you're you're tired and you're on your feet and the monzo not on the monzo the i-z or whatever the fuck is called machines not working and that is hard as you get bigger and bigger and bigger it doesn't get easier it just gets different as you get bigger you've got more people to deal with more more people to manage more people to look after the challenges get different and i think there's something about accepting that it doesn't get easier it just gets different and there's a kind of weird just acceptance of that and acceptance of things getting hard and another thing that um henry dimblebee sorry it sounds like i'm just fucking name dropping everyone at the minute i'm really not well i am but i'm not meaning to he taught me another thing which was um you know your pain threshold goes through the roof the bigger you get the longer you're in the game the longer in the business so if you can just get used to sucking up that pain and it does link to giles's um um what's it called uh it doesn't get easier it's different and um the more you're in the game the longer it gets uh it gets easier to sort of just accept those blows, which is super useful.

7:42Another thing Giles taught me is your shopper changes as just like the journey doesn't get different, get easy, it gets different. The same with your shopper. Your shopper will change as you go along the adoption curve. So in the early days, when you're super small and agile, you'll know exactly who your customer is. As you get bigger and bigger and bigger, your customer will actually change. and this is why data is actually so important i think there's an example of trips are trips customers even though they probably target as you can imagine sort of the nottingham does spin class yogi sort of that's their probably core i think from the data is actually showing that most of their customers are over 40 in retail so as you get bigger and bigger and bigger and you get to the size of trip your customer will change and so being all over the data and accepting that your customers can change is so important.

8:34Giles had this at VitaVitaGo. Sounds like VitaVitaGo. No, VitaGoGo, where the original shopper was someone who was super, super health conscious. By the end, it changed. And you need data to know how your shopper is changing as you go along the adoption curve. I was very ardently against data. That was probably four years ago. I've probably changed my mind on that ever so slightly. I think I'm still massively into intuition and volume intuition, but I think sort of tempering that down with data is also super important. And knowing how to use data to inform decisions is absolutely vital. Next one, David Hyatt from Hyatt Denim.

9:19So this episode is like cowpole for the soul. It was one of my favorite ones we ever did. And I listened to it when, you know you see all this pernicious shite on linkedin have everyone been like eternal linkedin gives me fucking anxiety attack it's like oh my god i'm so behind i haven't done a 10k i haven't done 10 000 steps i haven't made 10 grand i haven't got a 10k watch i haven't got a 10k louis vuitton bag and um it's like whoa why did i you know linkedin's linkedin can actually kind of pollute your mind making you think it's all about growth this episode with david hyatt of hyatt denim is an antidote to that.

9:52David built and sold Howie's Jeans to Timberlands. He's done the journey. He made a shitload of wonga and he realized, oh God, this isn't the sort of panacea I hoped it was. And so he's kind of got this antidote to growth and you can grow in different ways. Like he talks about, you don't have to be a, you can be a time billionaire. And I think that's what I'm definitely leaning towards. Like, I just want to be in control of my diary. If you've got a free, if I've got a free diary in a week, then I'm a billionaire because there's actual billionaires out there who are working 16 hours a day who would love the freedom the freedom to get up and go wherever they want um so that's what i'm trying to optimize for and david's been amazing in that um in that episode there was just so much gold what does he say so he says um he talks about he gives this great analogy of why challenge your brands must be a speedboat not a shipliner so i when you're small you can move fast you can be nimble you're like a speedboat when you're big you're heavy as fuck you're tired it takes longer to make decisions decisions by committee all that jazz that you see in corporates being a speedboat is is the way to the future and i try and move at relentless speed i know the best startups move at relentless speed trip bulb beam are just moving quick they are speedboats and why i love uh the speedboat analogy is says the way to the future is to get there before anybody else speeds boats get there faster so if you can if you can fail fast in fact i hate the word fail everyone's like oh failure porn fuck that like it's failure is bad failure is really really bad you don't want to fail i think people have convoluted mistakes for failure if you make mistakes that's great because mistakes equals learning failure means you're out the game but like this whole thing on linkedin again i made i failed so many times no you didn't you made a mistake okay slight difference um so david's great at that i listened to this episode it's like yeah just be small i don't need to hire a massive team um why growth can be stressful your company starts running you don't climb the wrong mountain again like how many people list uh look at linkedin how many founders think i need a massive team i rose right opposed the other day about how team size is basically a swinging dick contest um for founders when they go around trade shows and it's like oh man how many how many has he got how many you got in bd how many got in this how many got in that it's like well just just chill you don't need a massive team you really don't actually more people equals more problems and that's when he says your company starts running you.

12:14So, but anyway, so that's kind of the core lessons, but what David does say as well, and I've actually used this, I do a lot of brand strategy days, brand training days, just did one for Exploding Bakery down in Exeter, in the West Country. And I've kind of bar-sided this from David plus my own learnings, but I think you can really boil down brand strategy into sort of three questions. So what's one word you want to own as a brand? What's one friend? So imagine like your friend, who are you going to speak to? And then the third thing is how do you speak to that friend consistently? And that is basically developing a tone of voice.

12:53Now, if you want this, I could actually send you the slide. But I use an example of rude health versus mind figures. You can imagine rude health, exactly the same product. I'll probably get castigated for saying that, but very, very similar product. totally different brands, totally different value propositions, totally different customers, totally different way of speaking. So I always think you can own a word as a brand and you really want to try and own a word. So minor figures could be nonchalant, punk, funk, rude health could be frivolous, scrumptious, yummy. So you pick one word. So what brand, what one word do you as a brand want to own and dominate?

13:30Then you need to think of a friend. And some of the, you can imagine the minor figures friend is a hipster in Dalston, in Stoke Newington who's probably got everything pierced and, I don't know, wears Solomon Trotters, you know what I mean? It's very, very different to Rude Health who's probably sort of, you know, wears a signet ring, scrumptious, eats lots of soup. I can imagine Rude Health customers eating lots of soup, loves making tzatziki, hummus, and homemade rice crackers. That kind of vibe. Very, very different customers. and I think if you have your one word scrumptious and say nonchalant so scrumptious for rude health nonchalant for minor figures your one friend hipster someone from Parsons Green for rude health then how do you speak to that friend consistently now if all you go look on minor figures Instagram and that their tone of voice versus rude health and that's how you develop a tone of voice you have one word how do we want to how do we want to exist what one word do we want to operate own what's the one friend and then how do we speak to that person i get asked what i was like how do you actually develop a tone of voice i think you've got to just think like how what who's our brand's best friend and how do we speak to that person consistently if you look on rude um rude health it's all like um yummy scrumptious delicious hearty melty uh coffee something like that oat milk whereas like minor figures is like quack like god would beat me in a marathon it's all very kind of esoteric and weird um so yeah one i think david hyatt what he taught me is you know a brand you can get a pretty decent brand strategy in three words just say what's the one word we want to own what's our one friend um how do we want to speak to that friend consistently tons in that episode numero cuatro julia metcalf founder of pret omonje and it's so i've i mean pret is just been interwoven into the tapestry of my upbringing it is just i won't ever forget the day that i first tried the um it's like the the croissant with cheese and bacon in it and tomato and ham like i think this was before julian exetive when the product was fantastic and they were just i just used to smash them the whole time and the tuna baguette um when that first came out when the baguette was super crust crusty was just um astoundingly delicious um and then obviously it's a i love sushi and i love dumplings and i love goyozas so um i'm just yeah i love julian i love julian the way he thinks he's for julian it's not about the money it's about making art it's about he sees business more like art he sees business as a way to um yeah it's like a form of expression he's just such an interesting character um you know when we do a when i do a podcast with him straight he's on the phone talking about japanese ingredients before we hit record and then as soon as we're we're out he's asking if there's like a kiyobi whatever thing available in korea like he's just so obsessed with product creativity and and um and yeah just get the relentless pursuit of better and i think he says you can find a nirvana i think he found nirvana with a bow bun or something like that.

16:43And that really speaks to my soul, the way he views business. But anyway, I asked him last time, pod's not actually out yet, but I was like, what have been, in everything you've done for this glorious success you've had across so many brands, what have been the two biggest mistakes? And he says, actually, there's another thing he can do. He's got two superpowers, find simplicity in complexity. Now, for me, who overcomplicates even going down to the shops, i'll get complicated doing that it's like a godsend just like just simplify it simplify like how how do we i think someone said genius is is the most steps is is the least amount of steps i love that so how can you simplify this and i'm i'm so bad at this i'm like naturally a complicated person so always asking myself like how do i make this easy what would this look like if it was easy um and julian's brilliant at this and he said he says it's not easy to find simplicity and complexity.

17:40And he basically says in every organization, there's complexity is like an odious cancer that sort of slowly engulfs and suffocates and ravages businesses. And I see it all the time. And I think just trying to simplify things. So that's kind of one of the macro thing. But then the question I asked him is like, what have been the biggest mistakes? And he said, it's very simple. Very simple. It's these two things. It's when I have lost focus of the product and the customer the product and the customer now for myself last year i got very distracted so for me my product is my podcast um and my customer and my sponsors and my customers are you guys listening to this um my audience that i care about deeply and hopefully provide lots of value for um anyway last year i got distracted as fuck uh thought i was steven spielberg and thought i was going to just suddenly turn in some director and start producing a lot of podcasts you know lights camera act shall know and be a podcast producer massively distracted me from my product massively distracted me from my customer massively got things complicated massively it was a headache massively it was just annoying as hell and it caused a lot of pain and I lost a lot and um it was it was a total nightmare and I see this happen in so many times of like Like if brands losing sight of their customer and customers, customer means two things.

19:07It's customer, I think for challenge of brands is both your consumer. So people who actually buy a product and customer as in, you know, Tesco's, Waitrose, Sainsbury's co-op. And this happens so many times. So one, you can lose sight of your core customer. So you see a land grab opportunity and you suddenly go into an MPD. And I think, I think in a great example of this, and Ed's been super candid about this is I think creators who are smashing sort of the protein. and uh what's it called protein snacks but um he they went into mushroom burgers they saw a bland grab opportunity in mushroom burgers he talked very candidly about this on the podcast and he's realized just focus on the customer focus on your consumer and your customer like what is your consumer who is your customer how can we make you happy i think just constantly asking yourself as julian says how can we make this better how can you objectively make this the product better and how can you objectively make the customer better and i think it's just a very simple aphorism it's like i know i ask myself this every day it's like am i making the product better am i helping the customer uh the customer is always right as they say um sometimes customers can be told to fuck off um so yeah i think just relentless focus on customer and product if you're a challenger brand that's absolutely killing it in d2c but you're struggling to crack retail then you've got to listen to this maybe you've got an ocado listing maybe you've got a whole foods listing maybe you're absolutely killing it in selfridges maybe you're absolutely killing it in your farm shop and your indies but my friends making the leap crossing el chasm crossing el rubicon to grocery retail is not easy it's the champions league of fmcg it's super hard it means playing at a higher level and that's where some of you amazing brands sadly stumble Look, retailers want stories backed by data, not dreams and a pretty pitch deck.

21:00And let's be real, supermarkets are not just going to magically make a space for you and your little brand. They need data. Something's got to go for you to get in, for you to get on shelf. And that is why I've got to tell you about Northstar. They are the team that's helping purpose led FMCG brands go from gut instinct dreams to unstoppable pitch decks that actually unlock retailers. northstar i'm not like another data company that force feeds you data like foie gras that act like a nasa space mission it's super super simple to use their team are amazing and they actually get the challenger mindset northstar are your shortcut to smarter decisions stronger pitches and investor confidence all built specifically for challenger brands like yours you don't need a massive sales team you need northstar link in the show notes click that link and you'll be able to book a free demo with Northstar.

21:51Highly, highly recommend that and thank me later. Number five, this, you probably heard me banter on about this, like, like based in every single podcast. So I've been trying to grapple with this idea for years and years and years and then it finally clicked and it links to James Watt from Brewlog, but it's actually probably a truism from all the most successful founders. So it's Nassim Taleb's Barbell Theory. And Nassim Taleb is an amazing writer. He's written Anti-Fragile. He's written The Black Swan. He's written some other books that are pretty good, which I can't remember. But he has a theory called the Barbell Theory.

22:35And what it means is, Barbell Theory makes you anti-fragile, makes you very, very strong. And he basically talks about it in terms of investing. So imagine you've got a barbell in the gym. If you're lopsided, if you've got too much on the left-hand side, you're out of balance. If you've got too much on the right-hand side, you're out of balance. A barbell is holding two opposing things at the same time, and that makes you anti-fragile. That makes you super, super strong. So in investing, and I don't know anything about investing, but in investing, he talks about this, is having on the left-hand side, low risk, super low risk investments like bonds, tracker funds, index funds, all that shit.

23:10On the other hand side, on the right hand side, it's having high risk investments, Bitcoin, challenger brands. But those two things will keep you anti-fragile. And most people, founders, businesses get fragile when they're too lopsided. And it's kind of basically, as I say, holding two things at the same time. And I think James Watt is the genius at this from BrewDog. He's got the ability to balance moving at relentless speed with the wrong direction sorry the wrong direction that's not great today isn't it it's good let's go lead you guys down the wrong path here and uh yeah these are the kpi um that would be done but yeah so to see so james has a great way of balancing moving absolutely at relentless pace with with direction so he's like we're going to try and go this way but we're going to go so fast if we if we are wrong i'd rather us move fast and we can course correct.

24:00How do we course correct? Links to Julian Metcalfe, focus on the customer. Another barbell strategy is absolute relentless focus on the core range, but then actually have a little bit open for some NPD. I did a sales workshop at Vitacoco and we were all about releasing their new NPD. They'd kind of spent so much time launching new NPD that they'd kind of they'd over they'd over sort of um stretched themselves and hadn't focused on the core and the core was absolutely vital um and so what they they kind of reverted and said right we're going to absolutely relentlessly focus on the core for three years i think by doing that they could droop with their business but then to give their barbell some you know some focus on the other side they've just launched this new um strawberry and cream uh skew um so i think that that's another barbell calm and aggression i think you as a founder you need to be super aggressive and go after opportunities and you need to move relentlessly fast if you can temper that and balance that with sort of calmness i love the quote slow as smooth smooth as fast is something i never adhere to i should probably get it you know whacked up here um there's loads there's a seneca quote intense action by intense reflection that's basically what i do from one until 3 p.m.

25:16every single week when I chill in the David Lloyd spa and saunter around. And they're basically reflecting and doing sweet fuck all. Intuition and data is another barbell. You've got a balance using intuition, going with your gut with actual data. Again, something I hadn't necessarily thought of. And there's a quote by Aristotle, which means we're hunting for the golden meme, which is that absolute sweet spot in the middle. And I think I'd highly recommend reading everything by Nassim Taleb. He's a genius. But the Barbar strategy is something I constantly try and think about. If I'm pushing super hard, I know I need to rest.

25:53If I'm being aggressive, I know I need to calm down. You're just trying to constantly, the pendulum is constantly swinging. And the goal is just to keep it, try to keep it in the middle. Try to keep it in the middle, but it's not easy. Another thing James Watt taught me was, he writes down everyday questions. And I think the smart answer lies in the dumb question. Ask more dumb questions to yourself. I should have got some water for this solar potty because I'm fucking dry as fuck up here. But I think one of the questions James asked, if I spend this one pounds, do I get 10 extra turn versus competitors?

26:30Great question. Another question he asked, what could you do that would kill your business? A great question again. question three what is five craziest random things I could do right now to 5x my business and it's all about basically getting really lots of bad ideas out on the table and you're going to find amongst the lead a plethora of gold a plethora of sparkling easter eggs of wisdom and I think the other question he asked himself he'll literally say at the beginning of the week white piece of paper what are my five biggest challenges in my business right now and how do i run at them how i run at them super hard and um it's something i've been trying to do but to honest i just get sucked into wanting to chat bollocks on podcasts i don't really do it but um yeah it's something i want to do more and in fact i want to do that tomorrow with my i'm meeting some uh strategy bloke who's gonna help me so i'll do that but he um yeah write down like what of the five biggest problems.

27:31But there's another thing between, a link between Julian and James. They both run at hard. Now hard, it feels like this force against you, this force pushing against you. And if you can run really hard at hard, that is where the magic lies, that there's an opportunity in this obstacle. The whole obstacle is the way stuff. Alex, number six, Alex Smith, for strategy sensei or sensei author of no bullshit strategy linked influencer um there you go i just said that um but he's i mean he's a genius like he basically makes he makes strategy which is can be so dry it's like it's like inviting a sort of accountant around to a dinner party who loves twiglets and has huffy breath strategy can be just be so bland and boring uh whereas he makes it fun and light and sprightly and accessible and entertaining um and joyful and he just does it in the most charming way he writes like hemingway um yeah i'm being a bit of a sycophantic norsebag right now but he's amazing and i love him and he's really helped me but i think one of his a few things you can boil it down to with with alex and it's um be be different not better every man is dog is up my product's better we're better for the b-cob we're better for this we're better for that better better better better consumer doesn't care how you're different be different be different again linking this back to rude health and minor figures they are so different to the other um malaise of you know banal crap that's in the category of oat milks like they are so so different and uh and yeah and he's and he's brilliant so the first principle with alex is just be different or better like always ask yourself how can you be different um and then i think we talked a lot on the podcast about like people say oh what's our point of uh what's our point of difference or what are usps and we kind of went again a bit kind of uh weird and spiritual on this but we were like points of difference are sort of uh conscious like people like everyone's saying they're different that points difference go one level down one level deeper and say, what is our point of disagreement?

29:43The deeper you disagree with a customer, sorry, I'm shaking, I'm losing the camera. The deeper you disagree with a customer, the stronger the point of difference. So actually say, what are our points of disagreement with the category? What are your points of, what do you really like totally hate your competitors on? Not in terms of actually hating them, but like as in, you stand for this, we stand for, you stand for Y, we stand for X. I love this. What is your unique value that your competitors can't copy? And that is an inside job. Again, Jack Reben on a recent podcast, he did Purdy and Fig. He absolutely schooled me on this.

30:30Your point of unique value and disagreement is an inside job. You've got to look internally, like how are you different? Don't actually look at competitors for a competitive advantage look internally and you know i had the same thing like all of it everything i'm writing now or talking right and talking about is from my own mistakes like i got distracted from the customer i tried to do another podcast i tried to start thinking i was a tv network i tried to get massively distracted oh i didn't try to i just did um and jack i was i'm doing another podcast i'm gonna set this up set this up sub brand it's like just okay why you've got to ask yourself some questions internal questions it links to alex why why how what got you here do more of that and i think people don't do that people founders are always looking to do the next thing or like slowly improve that or try that like yeah of course you've got to evolve but i think people try and evolve too quickly like someone's just sit down ask yourself like what got you here do more of that and if you do more of that for another year that's what jack says just just keep doing hungry for another the hungry is in a podcast for another year 18 months and see where you end up as soon as i've done that like everything started to click into place so doing more of more of what is working and that links alex smith which is a unique value that your customers can't copy it's an inside job uh and yeah you can hire me to help get that inside value out of you okay i'll only charge you a few hundred grand okay that's uh it's a great deal uh of Number seven is Man Like Rory Sutherland, who is the most downloaded pod of all time.

32:05There's so much you can pick out and pull out and listen to with Rory. I think, so it's interesting. So I think some of the best marketeers actually understand the power of sales. Okay. Seth Godin's favorite book of all time is Zig Ziglar's, let's see who's behind me.

32:31No. No, it's not. Anyway, it's not behind me. His favorite book of all time is Zig Ziglar's The Secret of Closing the Sale. David Ogilvie, who founded Ogilvie and Mather, or Ogilvie, he was an agar salesman. He would go around the country selling agars. He even wrote a book about how to sell Argos. The greatest marketeers know that if it doesn't sell, it's pointless. You have to be able to sell product. And I think you can get so many marketeers get in this airy-fairy, convoluted, brandy bollocks. Does it sell product? Yes or no? Seth Godin, modern day genius, obsessed with sales. David Ogilvie, pastime genius, obsessed with sales and copyright.

33:13And actually, all three of these are copywriters as well. Rory, he knows how to sell. And actually, yeah he's he's a genius marketer but he knows he's got a big foundation of sales um so i think what worry you read his book alchemy but his ability to pull in context and anchoring and framing um they're basically they're manipulation superpowers and uh it's just it's just genius like you know context like fish and chips sells more by the by the by the seaside was actually efficient the best fish is probably from Billingsgate Market in London, not by Brighton. Brian's probably some, I don't know, I can't imagine it being very decent mackerel down there.

33:52But it's, yeah, it's, he's got a great ability to just to sell things. I think knowing how to do it is super, super powerful. The context anchoring and framing. So anchoring is benchmarking your price against another product. You use it in negotiations. So I'm going to say you want 100 grand, you say you want 100, you start with 150 grand. For example, framing is again, links to context. It's like how you position things. A brand that's done this incredibly well is Surreal. So Surreal, the cereal looks incredibly expensive versus Coco Pops. It's like, I think they're like four quid and coca pops are fucking cheap right what they've done is they've basically on the levels of their adverts is they've changed the context they've started comparing surreal versus protein bars and protein bars versus chocolate bars are more expensive but people are so used to that context and that anchoring uh that has helped sell more cereal so actually surreal versus coca pops looks incredibly expensive but surreal uh in parallel with a protein bar versus a chocolate bar it suddenly makes it fair game okay that clicks so you can use these special effects so it's it's genius another thing that i just love and i just see it around everywhere is hits has raised the floor chains raise the ceiling so we need hipsters we We need avant-garde brands.

35:24We need people pushing the boundaries. Burger King raises the floor. That allows somewhere like five guys to raise the ceiling. Eventually, five guys will become commonplace, and then something like Patty and Bun will come in and raise the ceiling. The quality of coffee is crap. Costa coffee comes in, and it raises the ceiling. Eventually, that becomes the floor, and something like Cafe Nero comes in. Eventually, Cafe Nero becomes the floor, and blank street coffee becomes the ceiling eventually blank street coffee see it becomes the uh floor and a new weird hipster cafe will come hipsters raise the floor change raise the ceiling love it the other thing that i asked rory and he always he said to me if i wanted to open a coffee shop uh i would open one called flat whites or fuck off which i think is absolutely marvelous um and it's the opposite of a good idea is a good idea and again if you've got a good idea if someone's got a good idea, do the opposite and you'll probably find a good idea.

36:21Case in point with this is so many people in so many coffee shops, you can get like a frappa dappa dappa wappa choppa twappa twa chino with extra cream. You're like, what the fuck? There's a massive selection in some of these. And just boil it down, do the opposite. One product, you have it or you don't, bye bye. The opposite of a good idea is a good idea. Again, another truism that you can apply to brand building this links to charlie munger again someone another learning that you've probably heard me talk about a lot but i'd highly recommend reading charlie munger's pause to portray his arm and that i've read it like three times it's like a great book for just mad wisdom uh and he talks about the rule of inversion so which is basically what rory does rory if you actually boil down a lot of what his learnings and workings is you always inverting and by inversion you're basically asking the question back to front so instead of saying like why are customers, how do we get more customers to buy our product?

37:19You actually invert the question, you say, why aren't people buying our product? Charlie Munger gave a famous speech at a university commencement speech in America and all the fucking... His talk was about how to be happy. And he basically inverted the question. He said, instead of giving you a talk about how to be happy, i'm going to tell you how to be unhappy and if you avoid those things then you're off to the races so i think he said uh you know if you want to be unhappy take loads of drugs drink loads of booze smoke loads of ciggies one be unreliable be envious be uh what was it unreliable inconsistent there's a few i google it and you'll you'll read it but it's about knowing what to avoid but asking the inversion question so uh with supermarkets how this works so for example instead of saying how do we absolutely smash this listing with sainsbury's it's like the better question is to ask is how do we not fuck up the next six months and by doing by answering those things we will know what to avoid and that's a better set better set questions i apply this to myself instead of saying how do i build the biggest podcast in the world uh friend group podcast in the world i just say to myself how do i not burn out so that means i'll have a three-hour lunch break i don't care because i'm in this for the long game it's a great great rule and funny enough how to not balls up supermarket listings this leads to number eight with james bailey the ceo of waitrose and um he's basically said and this is this is basically the the inversion question for supermarkets or making brands successful in supermarkets is don't think about how do i drive in a massive rate of sale just say about how do i not how do i make sure i don't fuck up availability he said the availability is like scoring your own goal winning the listings like scoring the goal you're like oh your weight celebrations screaming blah blah blah blah um but yeah not not making your product available on shelf not being all over it like a rash you can use webbam which is always a bloody mouthful there's loads of things or just get your team just hustling hard on the streets be all over availability like you can get the listing but If you're not all over availability, it's game, set, match, and it's all over.

39:34Another one, this really fucking winds me up. I see so many supermarkets do this. They just give brands so much distribution way too early, which basically means you're going to pillage the average rate of sale. I don't really know what the answer is to this. I've even spoken to big buyers and had even the CEO of Waitress saying this to me, but I think it needs to change. Why would you want to kill a brand? like why would you want to kill a brand by giving them too much distribution it's like already hard enough building brands like pushing water up oh you don't need any more hardship um that's another thing another thing you said in the early conversations which from the ceo of waitrose is saying this i think a lot of people can think oh you need lots of data you need lots of data um which you do um but i think you can leave with the heart not the head in the early conversations he literally said that uh but then you do and this is probably my biggest mistake i was very hot heart heart heart heart heart but you need to you need to actually speak the buyer's language and you need to sort of lead with data because the buyer's not thinking about your brand do you think about your brand the whole time you wake up in the middle of the night as you're having your breakfast thinking about your brand you're thinking about your meetings you're thinking like this the buyer doesn't care the buyer's got the buyer thinks about the total category and you need to speak category language and obviously to be fair this sounds like i'm dropping a sponsor but genuinely this would actually help is yeah north star who are our sponsor category management uh specialists but you've but this is my biggest only like you need to do both again this is another about barbell strategy lead with the heart so have the most amazing founder vision and passion in the meeting but then also have data have data if you go in with too much data and not enough heart and soul, you're fucking boring.

41:18If you go in with too much heart and soul and not enough data, you're not speaking their language. It's kind of a bit like trying to order a Solero in France. If you don't speak language, you've got to speak French to the buyers who are speaking French, if that makes any sense. So really important. Another one, which was by Lucy from Nice Wine, which is just what What they've built is astonishingly wonderful. And again, some real easy questions to ask to then start speaking category language, start speaking buyer language. What are their KPIs? Start thinking about the buyer. What makes them famous?

41:58You've got to think about the buyer. When they go into their big meeting, they want to say, look, I just got this brand X to suspend this much on promotions. We've got a gondola end away. We've got this. they want like if you actually boil it down like what does the buyer want the buyer wants to look good they want status in their rub job they want to probably get a job promotion they probably want to go on a few more holidays a year or they want to buy their kids a nicer cricket bat or some shit like that like start asking these questions what are their kpis what makes them famous what's their victory speech that will start making you thinking about category in terms of the category.

42:36And then if you really want to sort of razzle dazzle it, go for Northstar as well. They will be able to help you do all that stuff. Kieran's a legend. Bativo, one of my fave brands at the minute. And this links to sort of Alex Smith, but it's brand strategy. And I think brand strategy is asking hard questions to find really easy answers and butteevo absolutely killing it in the alcohol free spirit or aperteevo space i should say but imma worked at some massive brands uh adidas like had her own consultancy i think she she told me something that's really sort of run true again it links to all these link right they're like it's it's an interweb of knowledge that sounds proper weird um but yeah anyway so she just asked these four questions and you could ask these two and he links to rory's the opposite of a good idea is a good idea so one is cultural tension how can we do the opposite of what's going on in the zeitgeist so again with bativo everyone's like we're alcohol free we're clean you know hustle hard work out blah blah blah what bativo says we're not actually an alcohol free brand we're just like sort of have fun hedonism brand and we taste banging amazing category tension where is the white space in the category category and what is the counter category opportunity again everyone's being super clean this many calories like reduce reduce reduce reduce reduce reduce reduce your fun reduce your calories reduce your pleasure reduce seeing your friends reduce all the um fun shenanigans out of life but tivo no we're going to do the opposite of that again links to rory the opposite of a good idea is a good idea have more fun you can actually put booze in your drink this is what i love i love a brand that can kind of a bit kind of be like an octopus and have lots of different sort of brand touch points and tentacles another example of this is trip trip can work in annabelle's as a cocktail but also go and work in a fucking meal doing co-op now that's a brand um sick uh consumer attention who are they why are they different to the rest of the categories it's like again who is your consumer like know this in and out and again linking to jars is your customer will change um And I think you really want to lean on Seth Godin, which is psychographic versus demographic.

44:54I think a lot of people focus on demographic, i.e. 25 does hiking, does this, blah, blah, blah, blah. Psychographic, you know, in life, I'm 31 now. I still feel the same as 21. I've got mates who are 52. I've got mates who are 60. I've got mates who are 40. We're all the same psychographic, different demographic. And I think demographic is myopic. And I think psychographic is a better way to build a brand. And it's something Bativo do. If you look at Bativo's bottle, it's about every psychographic that are all lit together. They were having fun at sort of a bacchanalia of sort of delicious fun.

45:30But they are all united by the same psychographic. So I wouldn't really worry about age, capability, tension. Again, this is linked to Alex and Jack. Ruben, what can you do that no one else can do? What's your internal value? and those are the ones I've been really thinking about recently a lot I may do another one of these episodes let me know if you liked it and yeah I'm just trying to think of other ways to sort of summarise my learnings but yeah thank you for listening full service resumed next week we've got Giles coming out Giles Brooke absolute savage episode honestly so grateful for everyone who subscribes to this honestly means the world to me and please leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed it and I will catch you soon.

46:22Peace.

46:26Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes, next door, but one, cat, dog, whatever. Please tell everyone about this podcast. It means the world to me. And I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much