The Beautiful and Heartbreaking Story of KOL Becoming the 13th Best Restaurant in the World | Chef Santiago Lastra

34:30And it was very difficult because when I moved here, I was like, okay, I want to do Mexican-inspired food with British ingredients. That it doesn't feel like too traditional. That it works together and it looks iconic and beautiful. and it's pretty refined to create something so unique that will become world class that is something that you can write down but then in the moment that you are in the field doing it it's frustrating because it's like okay I just actually don't know how to do that like I never lived here before I didn't understand anything about wild British food. And I understood Mexican traditional food, but then I wanted to create it without Mexican ingredients.

35:31And I thought that they would work, but I didn't have a direction. And for a year, I was also 27 years old. 27 years old. So young, yeah. So then when I finally got to invest, like work with my business partners and the investment, we start, we rent a house and I moved from Kidbrook to East Acton. And we have this house and I was developing the recipes, but they didn't taste good. And that was so frustrating. I was doing 14 dishes a week. it's so interesting what you're saying there because it's like sometimes the map is not the terrain or like in terms of movies the script is not the reality so you may have like a Steven Spielberg may have an idea of what fucking Yoda looks like but in reality it's like how do you get a little you know whatever that's a shit example but you know what I'm saying but so is there a specific example of like a dish that on the script you had this vision of Mexican soul British ingredients you're in this flat and acting it's late at night and it's just not working I mean there's so many things I mean like there was this like there is this razor clam toast with beans razor clams that it sound really well like really good so it was a sourdough bread toasted with like with like

37:05scallop scallop emulsion like a fudge made with scallops that it was like in the toast and then razor clams and beans. So it was like a bean and scallop paste, like fudge. And then the razor clams on top and rock samphire. And that is a dish that it sounds good and it tasted good, but it wasn't right. It didn't look right. I want the food I don't know if you've seen The Food of Call but it's like it's very polished it's like very iconic yeah yeah yeah it's but I didn't know it's dramatic yeah exactly but I didn't know how to do that and it wasn't right and it wasn't I mean like we did like I was saying we were doing 18 recipes every week every weekend and then we try it and and then everyone would say that it was good no one will be like oh this is shit or this is not good but I knew that it wasn't good enough that's when the director comes in i knew that it wasn't good enough but then it's like no one is saying to you like we were already opening the restaurant anyway yeah in a year's time because it takes a long time to get aside and everything but in my gut i felt that what i was doing wasn't good enough it was good for a bistro what were the changes you made to just take it to that next level so that's the thing like it was really hard because we did like 120 recipes in the year.

38:41And then we only choose five. I only thought that five of those recipes were good enough to open this restaurant. And then when we open, we have some good reviews and everything. I will obviously never use those recipes again, like most of them, like now. What were the recipes? I mean, it was like a beetroot tostada with the... Oh, actually, it was lamb leg, like sear lamb leg, that it was dressed with fermented gooseberries and walnut oil and then an emulsion of chilies around it with a tostada on top. Yeah, I mean, like, there was, I mean, like, it was good food. But then we just choose five recipes, right?

39:24And then after a month, two months, I was like, okay, well, now I need to make more recipes. But then now I don't have a year to make 120 recipes and choose five. I have two weeks. So what did you do? So that's the thing, right? So what did you do? You know, and I think one of the interesting things when I was creating the recipes in this house, I will wake up in the middle of the night and like write things in the board, like ideas and ideas and ideas. And I will do all these recipes. And when I knew that they were not good enough, you question yourself. Like, are you actually not good? You know, and are you not good enough?

40:05Or are the recipes not good enough? You know, so then you don't know who to blame. The reality is that I wasn't good enough. But it's very difficult to accept that. Very difficult to accept that. Because good enough is really relative. Good enough for what? But anyways, the thing is that when I was here, then I was like, oh my God, like what are we going to do? And then I did it. You know, like I did recipes slowly and I evolved the menu. But it was hard. It was really, really hard. And then suddenly I was in a position where I was like, oh, my God, like, what's the goal of all this? You know, like, why am I going to work?

40:50You know, if I'm working all these hours, I'm stressed. I feel that I can't, that I want to deliver something that I'm not sure if I can. and I have all these people that believe in me, what do you like? And I think that is one of the questions that were in my head so much because for so long, my dream was to open this restaurant. So that's what I like. I like to have a restaurant one day. That's what my goal was. But then when you suddenly open and you see how hard it is to actually work at this level, you realize like, okay well you need to find out what you like you know and uh and i talk to me more about finding out what you like as in what do you actually like you know like when in terms of the food or like in terms of like in general of your job so what do you like you know like yeah so then i realized that what i like is to create you know and i and i and i was i was thinking like okay well if i like what i create what are you going to do you know how are we going to create stuff you know and um And then that is one of the things that creators in this industry, like chefs, struggle as well the most.

42:02And artists in general. How are you going to come out with an idea? If you're working 100 plus hours or like 80 hours or you're under so much stress. You got to get out of it. And then you got to have a clear mind. And you have to be really good in your mind. So what do you do to get that clear mind now? I mean, like, I think it's just accepting the fact. You know, like, I spoke with this guy that is a chef from Spain. His name is Andoni Luis Aduriz from a restaurant called Mugaritz, where I work for a couple of years. I think it's the most creative restaurant in the world. And he came to eat, and he loved it, and he was like, man, I'm so proud of you.

42:45It's amazing. And I went to the table, and I sit there, and I sat there, and I whispered to his ear, you know, I was like, man, like, I don't know if I can do this, you know. I don't know if I can keep creating. What do you do when you run out of ideas or when you run out of creativity? And he's like, if you're truly creative, ideas come to you naturally. Yeah, so I write, like, as much as I started writing before I did this. I write every single day and I like in the newsletter and it's I think creativity is a is a is a is a resource that the more you do the more you get I really believe that like I don't believe you run out of ideas I think you may run out of your own like taste or your own um style that may that may change but like in terms of actual ideas I believe there's infinite yeah what does create like so first question is what's your definition of creativity yeah and then second question what does it feel like so i watched that heston blumenthal documentary and he says creativity and this resonates with me at least is you're a kid in a sweetie shop right yeah yeah and and you're like you know a little toddler like and then suddenly the fucking clouds open and every single suite you've ever dreamed of is just like and you're just trying to catch all these ideas yeah i really like that's what i feel like when i'm in the creative process it's just like and you're just trying to make sense of it but yeah i'd love to know what's your definition of creativity first and then what does it feel like when you're in that state of creating these dishes because they are so just at the frontier yeah yeah i uh well just to finish that what he said to me is that he uh so he said that if you're truly creative yeah ideas will come to you come to you you just need to you just need to admit that and enjoy it and then uh and that is something that changed my life admit it and enjoy it yeah that is something that changed my mind because That is, you are, I was not confident 100 % about that, you know, because I was like so in the middle of so many things that I wanted, I needed to achieve in order to keep this restaurant alive.

45:14that I forgot about how like a truly, there's some sort of truly creation of any one of us, you know, that you just make for fun, as you said. You know, like it's, and it's important to enjoy it, you know, like, and the thing is that if you don't enjoy your job or your role or whatever is happening, you can be creative you know and it is important to enjoy it you know and I think in that moment the next day I woke up in the morning and I was like you know what I want to go to work so I can create something and that is something that it's a mindset that changed my mind changed my life because I mean yes there is a lot of things that you need to organize a lot of people that you need to work with and a lot of problems of like a daily basis of a restaurant.

46:14But that's fine. I think the most important thing for me is to be in the right mindset to enjoy what I really like that is just bringing something to the world. You know, like just like it can be, there's little things. You know, like it can be a texture or a flavor or a presentation or a joke. At the end of the day, it doesn't have to be creativity only applied into creation of art. And when you don't want to do art, it's fine. You can take a break. But that doesn't mean that you don't apply creativity for your daily life. What are you going to wear? Why are we going to change in this? We're going to change in that.

47:00What are you going to say to this person? That's creativity. and the moment that you acknowledge that uh it makes your life it makes you to feel more creative oh mate there's so um i just what you're saying speaks to me deeply like there's i interviewed a guy the other week called john sir john hegarty he's the founder of bbh kind of the godfather of advertising and his whole thing is it's all about creativity um and that's kind of what he says is is we should all have a creative philosophy and it's not just at work. It's, you know, do we go into the kitchen and just pick a couple of ingredients at home?

47:40Is it like how you do a workout in the gym? Is it going in and like reversing the order? Is it, you know, when you get off, instead of taking what City Mapper says to work, you go the other way. And he goes, when you do all these things in 24 hours a day, you're trying to be creative in everything you do. Yeah. It's a beautiful way to live your life. It's a muscle. It's a muscle, exactly. Creativity is a muscle. And that you work out. Yes. Like if you do arm in the gym, you're not necessarily lifting stuff in your daily life. But then suddenly when you're going to lift something, you lift it. Yes.

48:17Easily. Yes. And you don't realize how strong you get. And that is something with creativity that is very important to, like, as you said, in your daily life to use it. because you cannot be creating dishes 24 hours a day, you know, but you do your work in the side, you know, of like little things and putting yourself in the right mindset and have small wins. Say, oh, well, that was creative, you know. Like, oh, yeah. And then suddenly when you are with an ingredient or you are in a meeting of creativity for the menu, et cetera, you will leave that. It will be like no difficult at all. You know, so that is something that is important.

49:16You have to train it. But I guess as well, creativity for me is, I mean, like, there is different sides of creativity. But in terms of you have the creativity that comes as a result of what you know. You know, like everything that you know, everything that you train, and you put it together in a way that makes sense for you. And that is unique for you. Right? So that's one side of creativity. and that creativity needs a lot of training it needs a lot of knowledge for you to be to be able to do something that no one else can so you have to have your own experiences experience your own things travel what are some of the experiences because i know you traveled 27 countries yeah yeah the stuff with rani resepi which we'll get on to but i was reading your stuff i was like dude you're 27 and you've had like 27 countries like yeah the other thing i believe about creativity is different inputs yeah it was different outputs yeah so you're diff if you've got look if five people go to the same country and they come back with dishes they'll probably look quite similar yeah exactly unless but if they put their personality in it's slightly different yeah if you've been to like 27 and there's another restaurant down the road who's been to two like you've got a real rich texture like what some of the less inputs will yeah out of that experience to those 27 countries?

50:41What were some of the things you picked up? I think, well, just to, yes. So then you have to experience things, right? And you have to train. You have to work with people that are really good. Much better than you could imagine you will ever be. And that is something as well that is very important. even if you don't understand what they're doing to like be close to them was that person like with Noma like working at Noma or working in Mugaritz or work I mean like I work in some of the best restaurants in the world first before traveling what was the tell me about the genius at Noma what did you learn there yeah I mean like he was I mean the thing is that working there really changed my life because I I could really understand more how Rene will think more than the recipes.

51:40Like when you work for chefs and in restaurants, the only thing that you have access to is the recipes. And yes, you can see a pattern and you can learn the recipes, but you don't learn why those recipes exist. And traveling with Rene, because I organized the Noma Mexico event, made me that, like, made me understand the vision and the meaning of quality. because I think one of the most difficult things when you do your own thing, even if you're a chef or you're an artist, it's when you create your own style, it's to know what is good. Like that for me has been a journey of years. Like probably like, like I still kind of trying to figure it out, but for the first like 10 years, I was just like, I just don't know what is good.

52:33Like, I don't know what is good. It's like you're blind. Like you're trying things blindfolded. You don't see, you don't understand the difference between a good wine pairing and a bad wine pairing. You don't understand the difference between a good dish and a bad dish and a good idea and a bad idea. And also like to be critical to yourself. Like how if you don't know what is good and what is not good. So then I dedicate like 15 years of my life or like 12 years of my life to stay away from what I think that it was bad. You know, because I wasn't able to understand what was good because it's just hard, you know, like how can you tell?

53:17And then with Rene, I understood that his philosophy is all about the quality of craft. So if you do your craft right, you will have a result that is good already. you know you get it you got to do the legwork of doing things from scratch and that was really incredible and obviously that quality is not something overly luxurious like putting gold uh gold sheets on top of the steak or anything um or caviar and truffle and everything it's more about things that are made with respect and and they have a story a backstory and a and a and an element of human interaction to create them. And that was really incredible.

54:05And I also like traveling around the world as well. And I said to the young kids as well, the word here, younger, that you got to try a lot of food to find out what you like. Because one of the things is what the journalists like or what the chefs like or what your guests like or what but then and then what is right and what is wrong or what is good and what is bad but then what is good for you what you like and that is a very very also more complicated journey as well because you also have to find the middle ground between what you like and what you want to represent but also what people like.

54:50So then that is one thing. And then the other way of creativity that I think is, so one thing is that everything that you know and your experience, put it together in your own interpretation. Yeah. If you make a diary, diary, diary? Yeah. And you write down absolutely every single piece of information that you learn in your life and you put it in AI, they will create things for you like that. So have you done that? No, no, no. I haven't done that. But I guess that's because it's just like it makes sense. It makes sense if you mix these two things to do something. It's like this guy worked in the steakhouse and he worked in the beach.

55:39So he might do grilled fish. it makes sense yeah there is another type of creativity that doesn't make any sense which is that is true creation and for me that is the most that the most like the most fascinating way of creating that i believe i've been reading this book the artist way i don't know you know yeah yeah yeah exactly so then that is a philosophy that i've been having this in the last in the last year that I, where I created, I think one of the best things I ever create. Which is? Like, like the, like, I think just like the current menu that we do this year, like, like there was a lot of things that are quite unique.

56:23Like for example, like the, this guacamole dish that is, is made with, with hemp seeds and courgette and onions and, and they are blended into an ice cream. and then underneath you have crisps of corn and then finish it with a sunflower, the heart of the sunflower that is cooked like an artichoke. And then everything is dressed with like a caviar sauce that looks like a sunflower with petals and everything. And well, I think that... truly new ideas or what is called inspiration comes with that you are in the right frequency with the universe. Mate. And that you don't take, basically, I don't take credit for those ideas.

57:22I'm just, I just receive and literally just translate. You're a conduit. Yeah, exactly. Have you read The War of Art? There's two books you need to read. Yes, yes, I have it. Steven Pressfield. Yes, yeah, I have it. You know Rick Rubin, the producer who did Adele, Beastie, Boys, Jay-Z? Yeah. He's got a book called, I actually gave this book to John Hegarty. Yeah. Creative being. I haven't seen that. I haven't watched it. Unbelievable. He basically says creativity is this like, you know, like on a radio, it's like, and then you plug in. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You listen. All you're doing is you're just basically going, and the ideas come to you.

58:02And so is that the true creativity when you're in tune? I think and that is what is called flow in that in that how do you access that um so so the way that you access that is I guess also like I think one of the most important things what and for for you to be able to access that is to develop your intuition yeah and and have an intuitive way of working because if you are too technical it's very complicated to access to that because you're like you have an idea already that is set in stone and you write it down and it's like, okay, well, I'm going to do this. That's why I don't have questions now.

58:42So I used to do these interviews and I used to have like a thing. Yeah. And I'm like, I need to ask this. And it's just like, I'm not, whereas now, like I just let it just be. It's close. The curiosity is in the room. It sounds quite ethereal. No, no, no, it's true. I'm into these things. Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. Whereas before it's like, it was like, I was holding the Ferrari like this. Yeah. It's like a, it's like an actor that only say the, what is in the script. Yes. that is limiting yes exactly so then that is something that is important and also to be in the right mindset again you have to be okay in your head that is hard for all of us in this stressful life I do a lot of meditation meditation walks exercise eat healthy and just what sort of exercise do you do uh i i just go to the gym yeah yeah i go to the gym and swim yeah uh bike every day bike and uh and i also like just i guess also like put yourself in moments there is two two sides of things like putting yourself in moments where you are uh just just by yourself like without any like phone or distraction yeah exactly and i i like train rides train so just like getting the train and just go somewhere without, without a destination, just like train.

1:00:06And then, and then suddenly it's like, boom. And then I start like writing things out. So Rick Rubin says, procrastinate, distraction is not procrastination. So essentially he says, his thing is to go on a drive or a train. And he goes, you're basically distracting yourself. And then, cause do you know, um, in McGilchrist, the, um, left, left brain, right brain, and basically left brain is all the analytical shit and then the right brain is all the ideas and the feelings and your intuition come from and I think we want to so much of life especially today is left brain follow these rules, these instructions this is the blueprint, this is the handbook boom, boom, boom, boom and we need to somehow shut that down to let that right brain almost be the antenna to ideas you're going to have both and it's the best way that you can do it is when you combine them do some work and then go for a walk.

1:01:02Yes. Or do some work then go on a train. You know, it's very important because, I mean, there is, you know, Quentin Tarantino that he said, I don't know which interview, but he was saying that one of his techniques when he was writing, when he writes, I think it was like in Glorious Bastards, but it was like, he writes for like hours i've heard this and then he goes in the swimming pool yes and ideas come in and just but like he writes like two three hours and then he stops and goes swimming pool for like four four hours with doing nothing like literally just just there and then he doesn't have to think about the script but then because it's so fresh it just starts like some things that he he haven't really thought about yeah they come in or nothing comes in but it's just like you know so then doing some work and going or but like what i'm saying about doing some work is if you're gonna work if you're working on a dish or you're working on an idea and you're writing it down or you're doing it with your hands it is important because that is grounded already like you're doing it but then to add into it a different spin-off or like a different thing you got to balance that with this you know as you say this frequency situation you know and when you can have both at the same time is the best and it's when it is when you're in the kitchen with ingredients and then you just intuitively mixing flavors you know because what what i like about what you're saying is you have to do all the reps outside yeah when you come to the kitchen yeah it just yeah exactly and tarantino's got i use this um you know ashley palmer watts devonshire did fat yes yeah of course yeah um he's brilliant i use this quote funny enough about tarantino and he says your pen yeah is the antenna to god yeah great of god i love that and i think whether it's like a typewriter or a knife or ingredient it's the same sort of thing yeah um one thing i'd love to ask you about is is maths yeah and there's a great have you read much about nasim taleb no i was amazing books yeah um but he's basically a mathematician he applies like maths to creativity and like problem solving stuff because the other definition in terms of like beauty the truth you know i think another definition of creativity is it's got to solve a problem yeah you know yeah and And I think maths is a really good lens.

1:03:41But basically what he says is maths is, in his eyes, and he's got like six books, Fooled by Randomness, Black Swan, Anti-Fragile. They're like a collection of really good books. And he says maths to me is a metaphor. And you can use maths as a metaphor to sort of understand kind of the follies of human beings. So one of his things is 10 times 1 is not the same as 1 times 10. Yeah. And what he means by that, or like another example of that would be, you know, say you get hit by a car 100 times at one mile per hour. Yeah. Nothing happens. Yeah. If you get hit by a car once at 100 miles per hour, game over.

1:04:22And he uses math as a really wonderful way to explore like humans. The kind of human perception. Yeah, perception. exactly and then i think the other one he says is um you know a 75 percent um fat free burger in a consumer's mind yeah it's not the same as a 25 fat burger yeah you know and he's go it's a beautiful book yeah you did you were going to be wanted to be a mathematician yeah what what have you learned about maths that you apply to problem solving and creativity what's that that's you're obviously steeped in yeah there's two sides of things like there's actually a book that i i just finished that is called um art and fear art and fear art and fear and it's such a small like it's amazing they're like an espresso yeah it's amazing i finish it like straight away and uh and that one is is a very interesting that it's uh what's it called art and fear okay sweet and And it's an interesting book because that's one of the things that it says is that when you have this genuine idea, it's just at the very beginning.

1:05:34And that is the only moment where you have this inspirational, like kind of Eureka moment. the rest of the journey and the 80 of it is the work that you have to do to deliver that and all the creative decisions that are going to happen after that first idea are going to be not new ideas are going to be ideas to solve problems to make that idea tangible you know and I think that goes into maths and problem solving in which how so because I'm really I was really bad at maths I just like picked up these no I was really good at maths and I always have A maths and I was in the math competitions and everything and because so basically what you're saying so you get the idea applying this maths to creativity you get this idea right it's almost like a seed yeah then actually getting that to blossom into a flower that's where the work yeah and that is where the work like the 80 or 90 of the work of creativity also gets applied but to problem solving and like make that idea possible you know like i want to do a guacamole with hemp seeds that has that looks like a flower yeah and you dry it and you draw it and everything yeah and then it's like and then it's like can we have enough can we have enough sunflowers you know so then we need to reach out to the farm it's like okay well we're gonna do this dish and we need sunflowers so we need a field and stuff like that so then so then it's oh wait how can we do it how many we need and then so then all the all the the like it's a very it's like Harry Potter you're like and the Jacob Rowling like one of the things that she had, like she was like late for her train, whatever, or her train was late, you know, like there in Scotland.

1:07:44And she was like, she had an idea of boy is magician and he doesn't know about it. And that was the idea, you know, like, and that is what made Harry Potter, made the whole franchise of Harry Potter. Then he need to write it down. She needs to sit down in the coffee shop and be like, okay, well, there's a boy that is a magician that doesn't know that he's a magician. And that's the plot. Then she needs to write it down. Okay, so what's the name of this magician? Where do they live? You know, like all this. So that is the creativity that, like, grows, as you said, that can put water on that sieve.

1:08:33Wow. You know, like, but because you apply 90 % of your creativity on that, on developing the story, you know, on developing the dish, on making sure that it works on the marketing. How's that like maths? So again, I'm like, you get past key stage two, mate. No, but maths is about problem solving. It's not about remembering formulas or being good at numbers. It's not about like. It's not arithmetic. It's being really quick of like, okay, what is like three times five or whatever. It's not about that. It's more when I will go to a competition, they will give me three or four questions. So you were doing maths competitions?

1:09:18Yeah, I was in the Olympics of maths. That's so sick. Yeah, I got like some medals and stuff. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I will go. You were working hard at maths as well? Or was this so like... Yeah, you go, you go. As long as you train for it? Yeah, yeah. It's like the movie 21. You know, you go with like a special teacher that is training you for your competition. It's like, imagine that. How old were you at this point? 14. 14. Sick. And then I will go and travel around Mexico to go to these competitions with a team of my state. So I was representing my state in this competition, like national competitions.

1:09:55And but then they will give you four questions. but the question doesn't necessarily have only one answer it doesn't have a multiple answer and it doesn't like and it will give you they will give you four or five hours to answer those three or four questions and you gotta think and you can and the most amazing thing about maths and that the way that i will approach it is by common sense so you need to have a very very like like a mind or like a a way and a and a and a and some sort of finding joy on solving problems and looking into every single possibility on how can this be solved. And problem solving doesn't have only one root.

1:10:56And that is the math brain, the mathematician brain, because the mathematician thinks in all the possibilities. And then even if it's not being formulated, so then you can create avenues, you can create results, you can create processes that doesn't exist. And then some of the mathematicians that are really well-known, they create problems that they have no solution. But they create the problem. It's about creating. It's about creativity. It's about creating your own world. And I think creativity is about also being just understanding that it's not only one solution, you know, and working with your team and make sure that they have that right mentality as well.

1:11:58And you have to be flexible and you have to change your concept, evolve, you know, and that is what helps you evolve. And that is what makes the idea reality, you know. Yeah, is there, mate, I love that. There's a guy who's been on loads, Rory Sutherland, who's like a, does Ogilvy, really creative guy, got a great book called Alchemy, which is all about, he did, he did statistics as well at university, but all about, it's called Alchemy, like the magic of creativity and how to solve problems. One of his things that I love is at school, you can't rewrite the question, but in business you can. And actually, it's a lot about asking dumb questions.

1:12:36It's like, I believe the smart answer lies in the dumb question. Instead of looking for the answer, you say, again, linking this to maths is what's different solutions here. And you have a whole buffet of different options. That may work, that may not. Yeah, that goes down to business as well. Not only creating the issues. Yeah, exactly. So what would you say in terms of that specific examples of sort of applying the maths to Cole and or Fonda, where you've kind of gone to the team and said, right, this is a problem. We're going to find four or five different solutions to this. And then because I think it's I think closed mindedness in teams or in business is like sometimes you go to in a lot of businesses.

1:13:20Oh, we don't know the answer to that. Yeah. It's like, I'm going to go and ask someone above, and we don't know the answer to that. Yeah. It's like, oh, I don't know the answer to that. Oh, we don't have an answer to that. Yeah. Fucking bullshit. Like, you can find, the best teams are the ones that find ways to swim around problems, you know? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, it's been a lot of things, and I cannot take the only credit for that. Like, I think my business partners, Jake and Marco, they are really smart people as well. and I think one of the most difficult things as well about a restaurant is that it's a business and the most difficult thing about fine dining a restaurant is also that it's a business.

1:13:57So then I think the way that we've been working collectively to adjust our course, it's been remarkable and especially after COVID and all the things that happened when there was so much limitation of like what could we do and we have to be smart about it. Okay, let's make more courses and let's have less guests or let's do a bar downstairs. Okay, let's not do a bar downstairs and let's bring up the level of experience, you know? Like let's do events. Let's have a test kitchen for ideas. I mean, like there is a lot of business decisions that are being made and make this restaurant grow. But I think one of the most important things, it doesn't matter how many answers you have or how many ideas you have, is like when you work with people like together in the decision making is that you share the same values.

1:15:06What are the values you hold? And the value is quality. And we will never compromise the quality. And I think a lot of restaurants, And a lot of restaurants with partnerships, they fail because someone compromised the quality. You know, so then I think our common denominator is quality. So it's like, OK, well, preserving the quality or improving, what can we do? you know and that is something that is I'm very grateful to meet them because quality is not the quality only the quality of the food and drinks quality is the quality of life of the staff quality is the quality of the business quality you know like quality means so it's that we're not going to compromise that and that is something that is really important you know as well but the other side of that is like so many great restaurants are closing yeah like i interviewed tom brown the other week yeah you know the uh yeah he's a legend again very into his creativity obviously but he was saying he had to shut cornerstone yeah i remember yeah how have you dealt with with the quality the creativity but also the pressures in 2025 of yeah running mission style restaurant yeah so that's the thing like you need to you gotta adapt man how have you adapted and uh and i think you gotta adapt to the market uh you gotta you gotta to do something that is uh beyond and that's the thing like that is the only thing that we can do here you know like you gotta people want people want an experience and more and more they wanna they wanna share i went to this place and i took this with me like i took this memory unforgettable memory with me they don't want to go to a place and uh and and spend their money in something that is average or formulated or you can have all the time, especially these kind of restaurants.

1:17:14So I think that is what keep us in our toes. I think London is the most competitive city in the world to have a restaurant, a fine dining restaurant, and a restaurant because it's just restaurants. It's just so good. and in the past 10 years they've been better and better and better restaurants how did you, yeah because I was going to say why did you, out of all the cities in the world why London and then also why do you think it's, a lot of people now say this is the best place in the world for a restaurant why would you say that is? well when I came here for the first time I got, like I saw a potential of culinary destination what year was that?

1:17:59that was like 10 years ago or something like that like the first time that I came yeah exactly 2015 what do you can you remember what you did when you first well I was working in a for a company in the weekends in London so I was living in Copenhagen and I will come here in the weekends to develop like do research and development for a company um food company yeah I know I know it's just they will fly me over from Copenhagen and pretty sick yeah I know I know but then it was one of those things that I'm like what is this place like why they have so many airports and uh and so many like people and interested in food but without like it was like it was starting i think i think things were starting like padella just opened you know like it was like it was this moment where chefs they were coming back and they were open they will open portland in in portland street or or like smokestack and all these places were new you know like it wasn't like um any other restaurants in that period i think uh you know like the laughing heart and like all these like p franco and uh and you know like most of the restaurants were starting in east london to like uh to to like people were like these these chefs that travel all around the world and coming back and opening their own restaurant they had so much understanding of uh of food and uh and culinary like like like the like the the culinary world and they started to open their own places and that was that was a turning point because then it's like okay well then then kiln kiln open and and suddenly like in the in the in central london you will have koya and you have kiln and you have so then and then and then suddenly in the last five years it exploded with like six years with Mountain and Brad and all these incredible Agora and all these restaurants from people that started small started with Kiln started with with the grazing goat or with Smokestack and then all these Dorians and and what's the name of the Palmer place, the Devonshire, sorry.

1:20:20Yeah, Devonshire. The Devonshire. Like all these places. Then now we are in a moment where you can access to insane ingredients and really good techniques and you don't have to go to the Ritz. So you don't have to go to, necessarily, to go to the River Cafe or to Dinner by Heston or to like all these like restaurants. Being democratized, essentially. You can have an amazing lobster in Dorian and just walk in and sit outside and have a glass of wine. And it's amazing. Or you can have an amazing, amazing cut of meat in Brat or this whole fish or whatever. Like, I think before, like London had an evolution of places that were institutionally French.

1:21:20The St. John's, the British institutions. and then suddenly

1:21:31now we have the new places that are offering you same or more quality for and that is incredible and also in the fine dining side you have incredible restaurants like Icoji and like Club Club and all these places that are making like really like new things as well. So it's a lot. It's a lot happening here. But it keeps you on your toes. Yeah. You know, like I think if you will, if we will live in a less competitive little town somewhere, we will not evolve. You know, and I'm not here and I don't think anyone lives in London for, you know, just to hang out. and enjoy life. Yeah, exactly. And that is...

1:22:26That's what I like. You know, we're talking about the improvement and the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the beauty of London is the... or the peace people find is the rush, ironically. It is the like, right, I'm out, boom, boom, boom. You know, like, I do this, I go to Farringdon for meetings and I've got dinner, and it's like, that is the energy. Yeah, because at the end of the day, otherwise you'll be like, I just did that one thing. Yeah. I just did that one thing. What would you say your sort of top restaurants are in London? Which ones do you really like? Well, in terms of fine dining, I really like Ewong and Endo, Ikoji, Klopp Klopp.

1:22:59You know, like, I love mountain as well. I mean, I really like Japanese food. So I go to Koja. Where do you say the best Japanese food is? I mean, like, I think Endo. Endo in the Rotonda in White City. That is really, really incredible. but like really traditional Japanese food, I'll say like a Koya, you can go for breakfast in Soho. Yeah. Koya with a K. Yeah. And a Tokonoko in Hagerstown that also is incredible, like super like chill vibes, like close to the river there. And you can have like also incredible just traditional Japanese food. Is there any like sort of cheaper Japanese places? Yeah, those ones.

1:23:50Yeah, like you can eat for like 20 quid or something. What I was going to ask is I interviewed Sam Hart, who does Barafina and does Tacos El Pastor. Yeah. And I had a look around the kitchen the other week after we had lunch here. And we were talking about, Sam was saying why it's so hard for Mexican restaurants or like not fine dining restaurants, but kind of like, is it taquerias, what you call them? Yeah, taquerias. Taquerias. To open here, obviously they're everywhere in the States. It's almost like the Mexican food hasn't really got going here. And one of the things he was saying is because it's the, to actually, to make the tacos, the machines incredibly expensive.

1:24:33So it stops a lot of new upstarts from starting up because they don't know if it's going to be a success. Yeah. I suppose the first question on this is where would you say are some of the best Mexican food places to go? Because I love Mexican food. Yeah. I mean, there is so many, like obviously El Pastor is great. There's a place called Sonora Taqueria. Where's that? It's in East London. And then also there's another place called Tacos Padre in Borough Market that is also really good. Um, I, uh, haven't been in all the Mexican restaurants in London because I have enough Mexican food in my daily basis, you know, like daily life.

1:25:19Um, but, uh, but apparently there's been a hundred Mexican restaurants open in the last year with like a high profile chef in London. So I think we're going to see more and more Mexican restaurants in London. and it's just one of the things that London does really well is in the moment that you do something with quality you have overall improvement because people then don't forgive you know you have one chance here and when you do it and it's good and if it's slightly elevated people will not go back to like something that is not as good yeah the boats rise with the tide exactly yeah i mean like and if you don't if you don't try and float rise your whenever your boat sinks and you can you can see it on the on the on the trends of like whenever someone start doing fresh fresh pasta then people will not doing dry pasta anymore like everyone let's do fresh pasta like when someone started doing sourdough bread then it's like okay well we're not gonna not do sourdough bread.

1:26:30Someone started doing specialty coffee. Well, I'm not going to have my like shit coffee anymore. You know, I want, I like the specialty coffee. Like people in London have a really good taste. Yeah. It's almost like the, applying this to nature, it's the survivor of the fittest. Yeah, exactly. Adaptation. You're constantly improving, constantly improving. It is. Yeah. You have a, like, sorry, like people here have a good taste, a great taste. I think the only thing that, that happened in the past is that there was just no access. There was no, like you will think that you will have to go to France or you have to go to Italy to have good Italian food or that you have to go to India to have good Indian food or do you have to, and in my case, that you have to go to Mexico to have good Mexican food.

1:27:12But then the more that that belief is changed by delivering a high quality product, then the demand grows and then also people don't want to have the cheap burrito anymore it's interesting what you say about taste because one of our we produce other people's podcasts his wife works for she used to work for London Fashion Week I think she works for GQ now one of the big publishing things and she was saying like London so you've got sort of Paris, Milan, New York, Tokyo and London as the five cities they see as where all the new fashion trends start. And I think what you say in terms of London, not London, actually the UK in terms of style, it's like rock and roll, you know, the Beatles, the Stones, like we fucking pioneered rock and roll and like what people were wearing was so like out there.

1:28:15And I believe like what's happening now in food is it's just, that's now happening in food. That's why it's so exciting. Yes. 1962 for music was when the Beatles started then then the Rolling Stones happened and then like you know all the bands that followed that essentially and someone the guy who did Pizza Pilgrim said 2011 was like 1962 of food because you had street food you had all the street food kicking off you had um as you were saying earlier these influxes of places like 2011 2012 2015 smokestack yeah instagram made people suddenly everyone into food yeah and then you had all these as you say just this melting pot it's yeah it's insane no it's true it's true london has everything like it's uh it's in the forefront of fashion uh of art uh science like like like discover like like there's a lot of like incredible scientists yes from from the uk and and also um fashion as you said yeah uh music film you know incredible what filmmakers oh yeah what Christopher Nolan who else yeah Joe Wright as well Joe Wright Joe Wright made the the darkest hour yeah oh sick yeah yeah yeah amazing actors yes like incredible film uh industry and then I think I think the food is what is following you know like it's just the only thing that you'll be like okay well how these guys like done everything yes but then the food is missing yeah but it was just the access man i think it was just the fact that people thought that you couldn't do it here yeah and now i mean people are i mean also like climate is changing you know you can grow much better things here and you have an amazing like this year we have an amazing season like we have better season than in spain you know like in terms of like the length that we have like be able to have strawberries and tomatoes and all these things.

1:30:19Like it is, there is like incredible fish, incredible seafood, incredible meat. And for a long time, for years, that has been only like mostly exported. You know, like the biggest, like the people that buy more scallops from Scotland are from Hong Kong. you know like and it's one of those things that are like and the langostics go to spain and the and the meat goes to spain and then you know so it's one of those things that are like now that the the the food is becoming better organically people are growing the demand and consuming more local restaurants instead of having to go to euro for the weekend etc yeah yeah yeah there's also more like better communication with the suppliers and with the producers to keep, like to grow better things and do better things for the local community.

1:31:24The only thing that is hard is that there is, they're just too good. You know, it's just too good. So then the only thing that you can do is to be better, you know, and that is how you survive. Yeah. How do you deal with the fear of staying relevant like because i think that's the other thing of restaurants yeah you can come and go one minute you're in one minute you're out yeah how do you is it is it getting better or yeah no i mean like the thing is that i don't really i'm not really afraid of of of of that i am i just i i couldn't be more excited i mean like i i like to to see like and focus myself on on on what is coming you know for for for this restaurant and uh and i i am really glad to to to say that what is coming for this restaurant it's uh it's it's incredible and it's the best thing the best team we ever had the best uh food we ever had and and i think we couldn't be in a better place um so i'm just excited to see you know like it's one of those things that you could be as as as stress as you want to be.

1:32:32But I think when you have a great product and you have a great team, there's nothing to be afraid of. Yes. I want to talk about Mexican soul because that's a big part of this and really get into the Mexican side of things. Like, who do I speak to? I love it. I was at a wedding on this weekend, just gone. And half of them were like, half the bride's side were German. And they were saying there's a word in German. and they were discussing the mum, they said like, I can't really pronounce it, right? But it was like some words in some languages don't exist in other languages. Do you see what I'm saying?

1:33:09And so I think the word they used was like warmth and homeliness. It was like just one word. It's all good, man. The Japanese have a word for, for what's it called? They've got some mad words. They've got a word for walking through a forest when the bluebells are out. All right. Like, as in just mad. Are there any words in Mexican or Mexico that the British language don't have that are really interesting to you? I am not 100 % aware right now of pretty much anything. but there is one that I saw the other day that is called, it's a apapacho. Apapacho. Apapacho. So I'm saying that like an Italian.

1:34:00Yeah, so it's like a hug to the soul. Apapacho. Oh, wow. Apapachar. It's like you're hugging someone else's soul. Yes. Yeah, so that's like, it's like comforting, but in the highest of the levels, you know? Apapacho, yeah. Like apapacha. Apapachar. Yeah, so I'm saying like an Italian, mate. A-pa-pa-char. That's jokes. A-pa-pa-char, yeah. And what about the other way around? Any British words? I know there's a lot of slang.

1:34:34I mean, I think there is a lot of things that we never say. I mean, like, there is a lot of normal things in English that you never say in Spanish. Like, for example, looking forward to. Or I'm excited. What would you say? You just don't say it. You just do it. How do you say it? yeah like you will never say like oh well i'm i'm very excited of like like you could you could say it but you will never say it or like looking forward like these kind of things like you never wow like yeah exactly yeah it's uh it's like a too formal like it will be like a really like like a like a very formal way of expressing that you will never say in Spanish.

1:35:16Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Because now I am, I mean, like I've been living here for seven years and I've been living in English-speaking countries for about 10 years or 12 years. And I mean, for me, it's very, very normal to say that sounds very exciting or looking forward to it. But then when I translate it, I feel like, oh, that's not, yeah, that's not what you say. Yeah. Any other things like that? I'm sure there's loads, but I'm not sure right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, on the top of my head, it doesn't exist. I mean, there's a lot of things that don't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:35:54So talk to me about your growing up in Mexico. Whereabouts were you? What was your home like? Was it a busy city? Paint the picture of that for me. Yeah, so I'm from Cuernavaca. That is a 40-minute drive from Mexico City. It's a small town and it used to be this weekend town from the people from Mexico City. What's that on the coast? No, no, no. It's like in the middle. Right. It's kind of like the Kent of Mexico City in a way. Jokes. It's just close, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But imagine that Kent will have the best weather. Because the thing is that Mexico City is really high altitude. So then when you go down, there's a valley, right?

1:36:38That's Cuernavaca. So you have to go down from Mexico City for 45 minutes. Is the weather not good in Mexico City? Not as good. Really? So Cuernavaca, they call it the city of the eternal spring. Wow. So you will have between 25 to, like between 24 to 30 degrees all year. Oh, mate. So you never have anything less than 24 degrees. And you will never have anything over 30 degrees. so then it's just the perfect pocket of paradise where everyone like all the houses have a swimming pool everyone is in flip-flops in the streets and and it's just it was cheaper than Mexico City so people from Mexico City after this big earthquake they bought properties there and they moved there and that is where I born well when I grew up and it was yeah so it wasn't like a rural like too rural the town it was more like a like a new city yeah and um and i studied there and uh and it's it's a beautiful weather like really warm and uh but then you know what we are from this generation of fast food and microwave like microwave was a new thing when i was a kid and uh and and and potato mash from the from the from the package was new thing and the pizza delivery was a new things.

1:38:00So my childhood food was more that, you know, like having pizza and having, you know, like, like, like fry fish with potato mash and just like a very good classic, good traditional, but like, but more like modern food than the than the actual like Mexican, like indigenous food, you know yeah what is um what are some of the lessons culturally from mexico that you think you you apply or i know we talked about drama and color and i experienced that in south america not in mexico specifically but i think that really is applicable to brit so sometimes we can be a bit like you know what are some of the other things you think are really interesting i think positivity you know like positive mexicans i'm mexican and mexicans we're positive you know like you always find the right side but the bright side you always find the bright side yes there is always a way of enjoying something in anything in life because we don't have much you know and uh and i think something that I learned working of my time working in Mexico in the kitchens is that the guy could have nothing like literally like the guy that was working with you lives in a place that is like three hours dry like three hours in like public transportation from the restaurant and has a family and kids and like lives in a building site like I went to his house once like three hours away and I was 15 and his house was like a building site no windows no doors you know just just couches in the floor and he will earn less than me because I have I went to high school he didn't and we will go to like a place to like have a drink he will invite me a beer you know like that sense of solidarity like i know the guy can't afford his life but there is a solidarity element of mexicans that we support each other and also we laugh you know we find the bright side we are positive people we are never because you're used to survival you used to have so many problems like the traffic the that is like there's no water supply today in the whole country or the politics or the economy or whatever it is like it's always every single day of your life you have a problem so then whatever we have is to join forces on positivity and i think i uh i feel that i'm very positive person yeah and that um And that is what I bring to the table by being Mexican.

1:41:04Like positivity and ingenious. Like I don't know if that's an English word, but ingenioso. Yeah, ingenioso. Like when you are creative with what you have. You're not like, okay, well, let's just make it happen. Let's put, like your wheel doesn't work. Okay, let's just like get this wooden board and just like cut it into a round thing and put that and you're fine, you're good to go, you go home. That kind of way of making things happen. Like we are, in Mexico, people will make things happen. It might doesn't make sense, it might not look pretty, but it works. And that is what Mexicans, we are spicy, we are fun, we are positive and we make things happen.

1:41:58Make it happen, yeah. at all costs. And we make mistakes, you know, but we don't think too much about what is going to happen afterwards. But it works. And people also, we are very, like, we believe in solidarity and we're also really friendly. Like, I think we are, like, I think Mexico is one of the warmest, warmest place to be. You know, like, when you go there, you make a friend in no time. Like you go to anywhere and people will speak to you and you will be friends, you know, like your first day at work and then you know everyone and, you know, like they invite you to their house. Like it's like there is a sense of like openness and friendliness that is really good.

1:42:46So those are the things that I think are really, really Mexican. yeah in terms of um so you know you talked about the sort of the politics and one thing i'd love to know is like i think there's sometimes there's a lot of noise and it's like with mass media right yeah there's all the talks of like the cartels and all that shit yeah but what was that like on the ground for you growing up was that i mean and also what do you think the westerners get wrong about mexico what do they not understand because you know you hear stories of fucking el chapo like yeah actually like you know like it just depends where you are in mexico and who you are with right um i think mexico is wild as well wild wild yeah yeah but it's unpredictable wild you know you never know what is going to happen even as even as a local uh yeah even as a local But if you, you will not, like all these like massive crimes and cartels, they are organized.

1:43:48So that's why we call it the organized crime. So they're organized actually. They're like, they're very organized. So then they will not randomly shoot you in the street basically, you know. like that you need to be with the wrong people doing the wrong things in the in a wrong place for that to happen to you that can happen to you but it's not gonna happen to a foreigner it's not gonna happen to like a young kid that just happened to born in like my hometown or if you're in Mexico City like Mexico Mexico is safe yeah for people to visit for people to live there and the only thing that is unsafe about mexico is your if you're if you're a drug dealer or or you you know or you go out with a drug dealer wife you know like that's uh it's not it's not gonna end in a good way so you gotta be a little bit more careful than outside the world yeah you know on what are your actions and what are you doing and where are you doing it but it's not the wild west you know like you you're like you can be there and have a really happy life.

1:44:58Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's on playing this, playing this back is, sorry, playing the other reverse. What are some things you take from British culture that you think, uh, like Mexicans could benefit from? Because I interviewed someone who says the only way to understand your culture by going in other people's culture. Yeah. And I'd love to sort of use being here, experience this for seven years. What have you picked up from the British? I mean, I love, I love this country and I love living here because of the structure and structure and just the idea that things that work make you happy that the underground works and that the flight is not delayed and that you know what you're going to get I like that sense of peace of the everyday life.

1:45:53You know, like very small things. Like when I came first to Europe was to be able to see how long the bus is going to take to pick you up in the station. Like in the little thing that you see, like, oh, well, 10 minutes. Like, whoa. Like that will never, ever happen in Mexico. Like very small things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Small things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I think one of the things that I really like about British culture as well is that you will never say yes if you're not 100 % sure. And that is something that we could take on. Because we say yes really quickly. It's like, yeah, sure, man.

1:46:30Oh, go into... Okay, so talk to me a bit more about that. No, like in terms of like, maybe you're going to get a site or you're going to get a deal or someone wants to... Like someone is going to work with you or something like that. Here people are conscious about what is going to happen if I commit right so it's a very it's an honorable very honorable way of of doing things yes and that take longer that will take longer because they need to check you know they need to speak with their team they need to like you know like they need to review you need to you need to submit things you need to like you know like it just takes longer but when someone say yes it means yes you know yes like in mexico yeah yeah yeah but in mexico yes can mean no you know like you never know you never know if yes will be no in some point you know like so then it's like it's one of those things that yes comes really fast yeah well any other things in Britain?

1:47:42I love the weather as well. Fuck off. The weather, yeah, man, like, I love... Mate, the weather's so pony. I like to sleep in a place that is cold and that is raining outside or, like, go out in the rain or, like, just, like... I just don't like hot weather. Okay, this is very interesting, right? That's just very personal. So, you know the John Hegarty guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got another really good book on creativity. I'll send you all these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. the big advertising guy in the week, he goes, if you want to be creative, never, ever go to hot country. And he basically says, I was asking, he goes, well, look, best rock bands, Manchester, Oasis, Stone Roses, the best storytellers, Ireland, the best summer, best novelists.

1:48:28How does the weather impact your creativity, would you say? A hundred percent. I mean, it's just the willingness of doing something that you don't have when you're in the beach standing. you know like you just don't have that you know like everyone is in a bikini i mean like come on like you're not gonna focus on i'm gonna create this new like scallop dish you know uh when the weather's shit you want to go and no i mean like like you just but i don't i don't really think about that as much it's just like a personal i think it's just a personal um uh it's a personal preference that yeah i just don't like the heat the the like the the the too much heat you know Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:49:06And also it's good for a restaurant. Like if the weather is amazing outside, no one wants to get in a restaurant. People want to be outside. So then... That could be another reason why London's food is... Yeah. Because the weather's a bit pony, yeah. I mean, it's just great. It's just amazing. And it's not as bad as you live in Moscow or in Copenhagen, you know. It's weather in Copenhagen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it's not great. Actually, we met these Swedish girls when I was in... When we were in France. Yeah. And they were saying like, it gets dark at 3 p.m. Yeah, yeah. Or even before that, like sometimes at 1 p.m.

1:49:41It's already black. And that's, yeah, yeah. I mean, like it is, and also it's like cold and windy. And it's like, it hurts. Even if you have gloves, like from November, it's already like, whoa. So it's painful. It's sting. It's like, yeah, stingy weather that here you don't have that. I mean, like, here people get a bit depressed in general. Appreciate the weather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not, like, this is not cold, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moscow, you open the door of your house, and there's snow falling in your face. So what are the countries you've been in? So you talk me through some of the countries you've been to, and what are some of the most...

1:50:19I mean, like, I mainly live, like, for the longest period of time in Spain, in Basque Country, in Copenhagen and in Russia. So those ones are the places that I lived the longest, like more than a year, like a year or four years. Yeah, yeah, I was executive chef of a restaurant in Moscow and then executive chef of like different restaurants in St. Petersburg. I find this stuff so interesting. So talk to me about like growing up, so not growing up, but like being in Moscow. Yeah, I mean, like it was definitely... What's their culture like? I mean, a Mexican, 25-year-old Mexican in a chef. It's a bloody wonderful oxymoron.

1:51:02In Moscow, yeah. It's just one of those experiences that, I mean, like, unforgettable experience of, like, the amount of things that you will never imagine what you can do over there. What surprised you about that? Yeah, but one of the things about Russia is that Russia is very Russian, but it's also not open. Like, you don't know what you get. They've got the best novelists. It's like, you're going to go to Russia, you don't know what to expect. And I'm always about expectations. Like me, I love, and I don't, I mean, like, my brother is very different than me. Like, my brother is, is no expectations.

1:51:43And when we go to a place and stuff like that, it's like, I'm curious about, like, why are you all expecting about this? And he's like, nothing. And I'm like, what? Like, I always expect everything. Like, I expect the best, I expect the worst, I expect, I expect, I'm like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then in Russia, when I moved there, I was like, it was the only place that I ever been and moved that I had zero expectations. I have no idea what I will get. I have no idea. And when I arrived, I was right. There was nothing that you can expect. So how? You will understand you're there. Like no one speak English.

1:52:23the weather is like minus 30 degrees uh like in the winter like minus 28 minus 30 degrees in the winter the snow goes all the way up and uh and people are just really really really like incredible you know they're they're really incredible but they're very russian and it's very russian it's just they're it's just it's just a different it's just a different culture you know like i had the best time i really have the best time like people i was really rare i was a really rare individual but i remember they had this they they used to say this thing that is like that i was too happy that it was like it was strange to see someone smiling you know like it was strange like you shouldn't smile yeah yeah yeah because something bad is going to happened to you you know like that kind of wow like a serious serious chat is like man like be careful you know like you're smiling too much man and i'm like what i was like yeah like no it is it is one of those things but i made the best friends in my life there because it's like it is like even with other russians or they just are the chef no with with other russians that is just like really people that are really loyal you know really loyal and it's same like they're called at first really cold at first but then when you when you when you when you manage to to like show the the level of respect and and loyalness to the other person yeah because they've got their art and their theater is is so they've got yeah dosa tesky out of crime and punishment one of the best yeah the bloke who wrote lolita lolita yeah again one of the most great you read that you're like what the hell is this yeah it's like you've got this really cold culture but there is and again it's like kind of a bit like Japan it's kind of shut off yeah but they have this their own as you say very Russian it's amazing what are some of the lessons you took from your friends you met over there like I mean I just find this stuff I mean like they have a lot of determination for sure determination yeah determination they're super hard workers and uh and they are really loyal and really really straightforward I think something that something that they have is that they will never, like, they will say you the truth, like, straight to your face, no filters, that's it, black and white, and that is something that is very admirable, and also what I learned is that you never drink vodka with, like, like, you never challenge a Russian to drink vodka with you, because that is, it's just, it's just not going to end well.

1:55:00A few more things and we'll wrap this up, I'm loving this, but, I hope that's okay. Yeah, it's okay. So I know you went through a really rough period where by you lost, I think you lost your father, your grandfather. And I think a lot of people listen to this as much to get how they get through tough times. People, everyone's going through something. Talk to me about how, if you're okay going there, how you navigated that period of your life. What did that feel like? Yeah, I mean, like, I think, yeah, it was a very sad moment. I wanted to be a mathematician. I was in between being a mathematician, a chef, and an artist.

1:55:36So those are the three things that I was like. When you say artist, like a painter. A painter, yeah. Wow. And I was in between that. And then suddenly I was 15, like early 15, late 14s. And then in that moment, my dad, my grandfather, and my grandmother passed away in the same month. It was January, I think. And it was a very sad moment. And I didn't want to go to school. I mean, I went to school and everyone will, like the kids will send me little notes of like, I'm sorry. Or like in my, and it'll put in my backpack. Wow. So I'll open my backpack and I will see these little notes. And I was just really devastated, like brokenhearted.

1:56:29and I just didn't want to go to school for a while. And I just started that job in a restaurant like three months before in an Italian restaurant. And I decided to go back to the restaurant. I was like, I'm not going to go to school for a while because I felt that everyone felt really, really deeply sorry for me. And it was uncomfortable because no one will say anything to me. And I wasn't able to really cope with it or know how to act, you know? And I went back to the restaurant and I felt like I belonged there, you know? Like, obviously, when you go to a restaurant and something happened to you, everything is so fast-paced.

1:57:14Everyone is just really, like, everyone was, like, grown-ups, you know, working there. And, like, so sorry, man, you know? And that's it. Like, you have to get ready for service, you know? And I felt that it was good for my coping. but also the the owner of the restaurant was will give me uh bread will give me like uh wine will give me like some of the some of the elements of the dishes that uh that we have in the in the restaurant to cook for my mother and my brother at home so i went back to the i will go back to home and i will cook for them like feasts and uh and they will be happy you know and i think the The fact of me from the kitchen looking at them happy.

1:58:02Looking at your mum and brother? Yeah, my mum and brother happy in such sad times. Sharing a meal that I made with my hands. Sharing something that I made with my hands. Made me realise that I wanted to do that for the rest of my life. So do you think you'd be sat here today with one of the best restaurants in the world? with an amazing fonda down the road, if your grandmother, grandfather and father hadn't passed away? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Because I think that day when I was in the kitchen and I remember it as... It's all good. Okay. When I was in the kitchen and I remember that as it would be yesterday, I put myself a goal with a very like very very strict determination of saying because I was hurt and I was sad but also at the same time I was like I'm going to take this and transform it into strength to build myself up to the top in this profession like it doesn't matter how long it takes me it doesn't matter what i have to do it doesn't matter where i have to go i'm gonna do it you know and like seriously i i thought about that and i never looked back and uh and i and i felt and i felt that in the in the kitchen as i was safe you know and and it's one of those things that I when I thought about when I think about it a little bit more in the psychological side of things like I think I kind of like like like I try to avoid that loss in a way by going to the kitchen but at the same time it helped me to have a goal in life yeah you know so then so then I I stay in the kitchen you know and like for years and for years and years and years I'm still in the kitchen.

2:00:13But yeah, I think when something happened to you, like now that I understand it, when something bad or something that is not necessarily right happened to you is for a reason. And you just need to understand that as a fact and use that as a strength to grow. you know and uh and that was the first that was the first thing that happened to me that target a whole life the universe pointed you yeah exactly exactly it's like how did they die was out the blue or was it well my my my grandmother was ill always and then and then well not always but like for a long time yeah and then there was a moment that she just like gone like heart attack and then and then my grandfather didn't want to live without her I see he was just in love like he was healthy he was he was the the best grandpa in the world Spanish from the like he was in the civil war and he will tell me like his war stories oh sick yeah yeah yeah but he was madly in love with her the moment that she passed away two days after he he passed away sleeping in his bed like i don't want to i don't i don't want to live without her and then uh and then my father follows follow them in a way like he well he was also he also had like an accident uh in a in a boat like a long so many years ago but then but then in that moment it kind of it was that kind of like yeah just like in a like sleep from a boat and but he was also like he also had like this like like um he wasn't like completely healthy but right in that moment with when their parents when his parents passed away he also gave up it was one of those things that is like it just i think my grandmother my grandmother passing away make them just passed away as well yeah yeah it was like you just trigger trigger them yeah to be like okay well that's fine i don't know for some i don't know the reason like completely but yeah no but it's just as beautiful and i appreciate you being so open but like i think it really gives me some real deep understanding of how one the drive the tenacity but like how you've built this so quickly because you're so young still yeah yeah and i think and i think it's important wherever you want to do something to believe in it yeah and uh but to believe in it like until until the last like moment and also to commit on your belief skin in the game versus soul in the game yeah people think they're committed with skin in the game if someone's got soul in the game you're gonna fucking wipe them to the floor you gotta be you gotta be uh completely and devoted to your dream and it doesn't and you don't have to and I think it's going to sound quite extreme but there is nothing else that has to exist for you it's just that it's not what people are going to say it's not how you feel about yourself it's not the time the length that is going to take you is just what you want to do and how to get there have a plan you know because if you don't have a plan and you expect people to help you to like make your dreams reality it's not going to happen because they are making their own dreams reality and they can only help you to a certain extent so you don't have to expect people to take you there or people to like to be like lucky or anything you gotta sit down and be like I wanna do this and I wanna have this and I wanna create this or I wanna I wanna move to London and open my restaurant I want the restaurant to be one of the best in the world I want to open another restaurant whatever you wanna do in your life I highly would say just take pictures of…

2:04:48…to this church what are the attributes and the things that you have to have as a person to be able to be ready for when that opportunity finally happens. Because the universe is not going to give you a shot if you're not the right man for the job. Yeah. In terms of the right man for the job, right, so I love people who do things slightly differently or have a different way, because I agree, you've got to just find a way to just... Yeah. You know, how old are you? 32, 31? No, now I'm 35. 35, sorry. But still really young in the grand scheme of things. But you could line up a lot of 35-year-old chefs and they wouldn't be able to achieve what you've achieved.

2:05:35What did you do differently, do you think? Be kind, I think. I think kindness is... There's two things, I think. One is, and I think if you will tell me, like, will you do this again? I will say no. Like, I will not move here again. Like, I will not go through everything that I went through to get this restaurant. Because it's just incredibly complicated and challenging and, like, mentally, like, not draining, but it's, like, hard, you know? So, but I think one of the biggest attributes that I had, it was to be innocent. innocent you know innocence is a blessing and uh and i realized that over the time if i if i will know how hard it will be i will not do it i'll be like you know what maybe i just do that i didn't know yeah yeah yeah i came here with like that's what we're gonna do and it's gonna happen yeah yeah yeah and i didn't know what is gonna happen and how it's gonna to happen and that is a blessing that the more that you understand things the more that you grow up the less innocent you are so then uh so then to to to to like literally just like jump in the open sea like that without having to like think about any repercussions or or or or have or develop any sort of like modern things like, well, like not modern things, but like things that we have, like when you, when you have more responsibilities, like, I don't know, like anxiety or, or stress or anything, it was just like, I'm going to go there and I'm just going to do it.

2:07:28And that's it, you know? And, uh, and that is something that is important. And also, again, I think to be kind to others and not expect anything back. And, uh, because I think there's a lot of people that are very self like that are more selfish or immature or or they want everything for themselves where I come here with a with a with a with a humble goal of like not this is not for myself it's for my country and and it's for like helping people and building a community you know yeah yeah yeah it's not because I want to come here and like be the best chef in the world you know yeah there's a deeper deeper reason behind yeah yeah so yeah so I think if you have a deeper reason behind it and you are you're kind with others you're determined and and you're also like quite innocent in a way that you could also even like have an innocent mindset of being like okay well i actually don't really mind whatever is going to take me and to have goals every every like very often you know because when you're working on your own you have your own company like when you're working for yourself and especially when you're working for yourself and you're actually not working that I was like what I what it happened to me when I moved here that it was one year of like I had no job and no money and how did you get contacts yeah how did How did you get the contacts to get this place?

2:09:02It was just like coffee, like, I mean, like, there is, it is an accumulation. Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can always meet someone, right? Yeah. That is like... Some rich guy or something. Yeah, yeah, some rich guy, yeah, yeah. That's something London has got a lot of, yeah. I don't know, like hang out in Annabelle's or something. But it's not the way that I, that it doesn't really work like that, because what I needed to do is to understand this this city and this country first yeah and then after that i needed to grow my name so then that is something that i wrote down as well so what did you how did you grow your name so they grow like first understanding this place yeah so understanding this place also means meeting people in the industry so i i sent like instagram messages to like some of the best chefs in london and i will just have coffees with them yeah okay can i have a quick coffee with you just to like meet them and like trying to understand what's going on here yeah because i have no idea yeah yeah yeah so then and then some of them will reply some of them will not but then and then and then and then it was a bit awkward you know to have like a coffee with like some random stranger and that doesn't need anything from you it's strange yes but i needed it i need also to like it was some of those chefs someone like james law for example yes from liars like he was so nice and we sit down and he was like yeah man you know like this is london this is the suppliers this is what i do this is my story it's like oh thank you so much and that's it and like like slowly like meeting people going to like this like uh industry like wine bars kind of events and stuff like that to like meet people hey i'm santiago i'm like networking i had to do a lot of networking to like get to like make a list of people that i know in london and then also going to farms, going to visit producers, going to visit foragers.

2:10:53And you had no income at this point? No income, yeah, yeah. How will you survive it? I mean, like, I will probably have, like, one glass of wine in these events or water. And then I will take the train, you know, like, I'll take the train. And then sometimes I will probably do an event or two in Europe or in Russia. I will go to Russia to do something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like sometimes, you know, but I was literally, I will have like a budget of 20 pounds a day that I will lay in the floor. So in the floor, I will put 20 pounds. Okay, so seven days, seven notes of 20 pounds. And that was my budget for the day.

2:11:37And until it just runs out. And what would you buy to eat? Is that when you're buying? Yeah, I mean, like the thing is that I will just not eat as much, you know, like sometimes I will eat, sometimes I will not and then yeah so then that is like the video that you saw is like there was a moment late on the on this journey of the of the first year that I was here a little bit more than a year it was just enough events that I could do in Europe and I didn't want to get a job here because I knew that if you get a job here you're done like your dream is done like you're going to be the guy that moves here because he wants to open a restaurant but in your in your head you're washing dishes or in your head you're peeling potatoes so i don't want to do that like i don't want to get a job because a lot of people like offered me a job like yeah you don't want to work it's like so i don't want to get a job i don't want to lose my focus going and organizing all these events and stuff like that i'm just going to be here and and it was in the very very last moment moments where i just run out of everything so then like there was a moment that i was just like i will walk home because i will not have enough money for the bus it's like the bus you know that was like two pounds or like one pound fifty or something i was like if i if i pay for the bus i can't have dinner you know so i have to walk like two and a half hours or something and then go to Sainsbury's and just buy a package of ham because there was like this one pound ham, you know, and I couldn't afford the bread.

2:13:27You know, I wasn't able to make a proper sandwich, but I would get two packages of ham and I will have that, you know, and then you get into a point that you're like, well, I mean, I'm getting into a moment where I'm in a survival mode now. And then the question is, how long this is going to take me? Like, is it really going to happen? And then also trying to understand, like you start to figure out that a lot of people are doing the same thing. But you start meeting people again and again in these things, and they're also chefs, and they're also moved here, And they also want to open the restaurants.

2:14:14But they've been here for years. They've been here for eight years. They've been here for 10 years. So then you start to doubt on yourself and be like, okay, well, maybe I'm going to fail. And then also like the hardest part on that, and I remember calling my mom and be like, I will not tell her like my situation or anything. But then I was like, I was just thinking in that moment, how, if I have 12 years of experience working in some of the best restaurants in the world, I work at Noma, I work at Mugaritz, I have all this knowledge. I can't afford to have a proper meal or to live in a proper place you know but then and you go you go to sleep sad you know you go to sleep sad you go to sleep like empty you feel empty you know like I'll have a date once a month you know because I couldn't really like I don't struggle I would not struggle like maybe getting a girl that wants to go out with me but I will have to decide when to have that date and I will have one date a month and we will split the bill we will split the bill and we'll go to the cheap place go to Greg's half a sausage roll yeah and that was the thing please don't tell me that you want to go to my place that was the only thing I was thinking where were you living in acton no no i was living in uh in in um it's called kid broke it's close to louisham okay yes yeah yeah yeah yeah but i was living in a couch you know that my my feet will not um not uh it couldn't fit my feet you know in the in the couch but then the thing is that then you wake up and then i think what it makes the difference and i think that makes the difference to succeed.

2:16:28I think that is what it makes the difference between who makes it and who doesn't. I guess, you know. What's your plan? Like, even if every single thing that surrounds you in your visual life is nothing and you have nothing, what's your plan? What's your goal? Are you growing? You know, and then, so then I will make sure that every week I will have a goal and I will tick a box. What are some of those goals? Like, they were like really small goals. This is the whole thing, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We sat here, man. Like, one of the most amazing restaurants, best restaurant in the world. Yeah. People we listening to has been like, they may not, they're probably in a way better position.

2:17:12If you're born in London, you're already 100 steps ahead, man. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So what were you doing? I mean, like, the goals were like, were like areas of London. so just like to find my right the area for my restaurant so I will go every day to walk in a different area but I will walk for five hours four hours or something in Chelsea and in Shoreditch and in you know Malibu Mayfair Islington and I will write in my little notebook like what what do I think about this area and how it makes me feel so then what did you like about marlborough i like that it doesn't have i like all the areas in london have a label uh well like the main areas let's say such so shoreditch yeah like shoreditch chelsea mayfair you know the labels yeah yeah yeah so then i think marley yeah exactly you know what like there is labels right yeah of course there is tandem well london's a collection of small towns yeah like even like south of the river that's a label like is it there is there is so then Marlebone it's a very interesting place because it's quality there is some sort of label of quality you know like you know that if you buy a piano in Marlebone it's going to be a good piano like you know if you go to the dentist in Marlebone it's going to be a good dentist you know and you know that if you go and stay in a hotel in Marlebone it's going to be good and it's just that like if you're going to buy a mattress, if you're going to buy shoes, if you're going to buy an umbrella, you know, there is, there is a sense of quality.

2:19:00So then that is my dream was to, or it is still to showcase the meaning of quality of Mexican culture, Mexican cuisine. So I think from all the places without being overly pretentious, I think Marley one was the most solid, uh, like the most solid area for my concept. Because also it's close to central. It's not in the center. And it's also like, it was very specific on what I want. I want people to be close. Also the rest of them to be close to underground, but not straight after. But you have to walk like five minutes or like four minutes. And just, you know, like that kind of, to be close to a street where you can get a taxi, but it's not super crowded street.

2:19:50It was a lot of thinking. What other things were you like? I wanted to be a big place. Yeah. Big space. Yeah. Where I could feed this open kitchen and like, you know, like this house. So then I needed a big site as well. Yeah. So yeah, it was a lot of, ah, the goals. Yeah, so then also like knowing about PR. Like what is publicity? Like what is PR? um and so then a week of like meeting different PR companies and stuff like that just understand what they're doing etc like they and they will ask me like when are you opening and I'm like I don't know one day I'll call you back how did you get how did you get the investments to then get the site yeah so then after that very very difficult period then I was like okay well I think I'm ready to do pop-ups here you know like to cook in London because I had like I had you had the I have the skills and I have the knowledge, but my knowledge wasn't good enough and my contacts were not good enough.

2:20:50So then I fear that if I do it too early, I will miss the chance. So then that's why I had to take like one year to like really be sure of where I was, who I was, who I was with. and so then I could like do stuff you know so then in that moment we're like okay well I cannot even afford a sandwich I better get some get to work you know so so then so then I started doing pop-ups you know I started carousel and then I was like doing like different pop-ups in different like either like kitchen shops or or also like even like taking over a coffee shop of like like Like someone had a coffee shop. It's like, yeah, I can take over your coffee shop.

2:21:39And I will do a tasting menu in the coffee shop. You know, like stuff like that, that I will promote myself. And I will invite like all the contacts that I have and people to like talk about it and stuff like that. And that was a process. And then after that, I started getting inquired. Like I got like some press that I will go to those problems and they will write about me. And then after that, there's some people that start reaching out to me that wanted to invest in my restaurant. You know, they will be like, I want to open a restaurant with you. And I had some meetings with different people that wanted to invest.

2:22:17And they were not very nice. They were actually the opposite of nice. And I had bad luck. And I was like, it feels, it's very difficult to say no when you're in that position, you know. And I remember to be in a meeting with like literally no money. And after all this time, and someone is like, well, how many millions do you want? I give you everything. But you don't like the person. And we can start tomorrow, you know? And you don't like the person. What do you do? So I had to say no to like a few times. And it was really hard. But anyways, that's a different story. But the thing is that through a common friend, funny enough, I met my business partners now, jake and marco and we had a we had a we had a coffee in uh in in in electric house and they were like the coolest people what was their background they they used to do they have a company called mjmk and they used to do uh music events like parties with djs around the world and here in london and uh and then in at the moment they were opening a restaurant called cast of the frango in london bridge yeah i love that place yeah it's so cool yeah yeah yeah so So they were opening that restaurant.

2:23:29They were about to open that restaurant. They wanted to move from music to food, to open restaurants. And my friend was like, okay, I have this, my brother has a friend that wants to open a restaurant. Apparently, they were hiking in New Zealand. And then he was like, you know, after like six hours hiking, he's like, oh, yeah, we're going to open a restaurant in London. Oh, I have a, my sister has a friend that's a chef in London. so then they put us in contact and i had coffee with them and i was like oh my god these guys are very cool if i don't work with them i want to be their friend you know and that was a good thing and uh and they uh they were they really they really liked the the the idea and the concept and i really felt that it was amazing to to work with them and then uh and then now we've been working together since then like seven years now man i love going reverse engineering like where we are now and going into all the graft that it took to get it.

2:24:26It's so good. Final thing is I know in terms of like excellence and world performers, I know that Tom Cruise has been here. He gave you a cake. Like talk me about that experience and what did he teach you about like life or what did you learn from him? I think Tom, what was, yeah, why did he come here? What was the crap? I mean, he came the first time that we got in the top 50 and the 50 best, like literally on the same day he booked oh wow yeah he was like like I got a text because I was in Valencia in the award ceremony and and and and they mentioned me just Tom Cruise just booked a table and I was like what and then so then so then he came over and I was very excited because you know what like I'm very big fan so you flew back from Valencia I flew back to Valencia but it wasn't like he didn't came the same day he was like he booked for next week or something.

2:25:18I'm sorry, I came back from Valencia. Did you say Tom Cruise? Huh? Did you just say like Tom Cruise on the thing? No, like her personal assistant contacted the restaurant and was like, okay, you know what? Tom Cruise wants to come. I might change my name to Tom Cruise. Yeah, I mean like you could. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then it's always like the assistant, you know, that makes these kind of things. And then, and then we, I was very excited because I'm a big fan of him and my mom and like my dad was a big fan. Like, Like, it was, it's like, it was like a really like, you know, big, big figure for us growing up, like Tom Cruise.

2:25:53And he's a legend. And when he came was like, I think it was like one of like the highlights of, of this restaurant, you know, to have Tom Cruise suddenly like eating there. And, but I didn't really say anything because the celebrities were really like, we don't make too like fuss out of the celebrities. We want to treat them as a normal guest. And, and he was a normal guest as well. Like he had a table for security and he was there as well. And then at the end of the meal, I say like, thank you. You know, like, you know, and then that's it. That was it, basically. I left. And then when he finished his meal, he got so excited and he was so happy that he shaked the hands of every single member of the staff.

2:26:35I wasn't there anymore. And then that's it. But then after like four months or something, he came back. and and and then okay so then i i spoke with him a little bit i introduced myself and then he was like hey man like thank you so much seriously this is my favorite restaurant wow and uh because it makes me feel good and then the thing is that he doesn't like he likes to eat a very healthy food so he doesn't like he doesn't like like like any like added sugar or dairy or additives or gluten and stuff like that. And we don't use any of that things because I like very healthy food as well. So the food is food of fermented ingredients, like food of like good fiber, good ingredients, local, wild.

2:27:20So then he loved the feeling of coming to the restaurant. And then he's like, you know what? I'm going to come back. I'm going to come back. And then two days after, he was back. Wow. And then he came back with the film director, with Iñárritu, with the guy from Birdman, the director of Birdman. and then he came the next day, like two days after he came with him and then like, you know what? I'm going to bring all the best Mexican directors in the world. Wow. And then next week he was with Guillermo del Toro that is the one that made The Shape of Water and The Labyrinth Maze and he's doing the new Frankenstein movie.

2:28:00Like he's like... Yeah, I didn't know those films but yeah. Yeah, he's like, he's a legend. He's a legend. And he, so they all came, like all these amazing film directors and Tom. And they asked me to sit down with them. So I sit, yeah, I was like, I sit down. That's so sweet. Yeah, I was like this. And then he was talking and everything. And then after that, I told him that we're going to open another restaurant, etc. And he's like, I'll be there. When we open, first Saturday, he's there. And then he's like, I'm going to come back next week. and then he come back and then at the end he's been here so many times and we kind of where he sent us a cake in Christmas this Christmas cake of Tom Cruise that they fly from LA to the whole world they have a list and everything and they send us one to phone and one to call and he loves it here and the thing that he's really the determinate person as well yeah I was going to say what did you pick up from him very present very present very determined but also very kind and humble like he's super nice no like it's difficult to you know like but when you get to know him he's like super nice he invited me to the premiere of the Mission Impossible here he invited my mom to the premiere of Mission Impossible in New Mexico yeah like he's like really kind and generous and and also one of the things that I haven't really have like like a long chat with him but the the few things that we've been uh we've been we chat and stuff like that he's uh i mean he's just like super nice guy and but what i know about him is that he's a perfectionist uh but he's a perfectionist he does all his own stunts doesn't yeah he does all these stunts but he's a perfectionist of on his on his craft you know And I think that is something that we share, that he loves doing things better because that is what she loves.

2:30:00That is what he loves. That's where he finds peace. Yeah, exactly. It's not about pretending or about like, okay, well, if I do this better, I'm going to get my money or I'm going to do this or stuff like that. It's just like a journey, like a personal journey of not only perfection, but just beauty, you know, on what you do that he does really well. and he's doing now a movie that he's probably going to win an Oscar. So, yeah, it's a pretty, pretty cool guy. That's sick. Look, I've had way more of our time, but you've been so generous. But, mate, I've... No worries. One of the best conversations I've ever had on Creativity.

2:30:33Thank you. Thank you so much, man. I fucking love that, man. Thank you. You just covered so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. No, thank you. Like, it's an absolute... Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes, next door but one, cat, dog, whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of Challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of Challenger food and drink brands thank you so much