The Best Brand Strategy Podcast of All Time - British Airways, Bold Bean Co., Meta, EA Sports - Tobey Duncan, Uncommon Creative Studio

26:18Because as you say, if we get more people obsessed with beans through foodies, through chefs, then actually ironically you're going to solve, well not ironically, happily, you're going to solve the soil situation and the meat consumption situation. Exactly. And this is where you shift, that's the difference between being a phenomenal brand and a phenomenal business. Like that stuff is really important to the business. You know, it's aligned with the team. What's the difference between a business and a brand? Well, the business is the operations, how you deliver the product and how you create the brand and how that gets to market.

26:50You could imagine there's the brand layer, but there's so much more going on behind the scenes, how you treat your workforce, how you treat your suppliers, how you do business, the values of it. That still can be operated and continues to do really good and powerful things because it's a really phenomenal business. But the brand strategy focus needs to be far more singular and in my case, kind of far more pointed at the lives of consumers. So actually the episode went out like a couple of weeks ago with Seth Godin all about strategy. Yes. Great book called On the Back. Yes, how it's fallen for you.

27:25Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've gone from one of the goats to this little room. No, no, no. I can attest to the podcast still going well. There's going to be some people listening who kind of go, oh my goodness, after Seth. I saw that and then I put my phone away. I saw this is far too intimidating. I was told this was like a foodie podcast. And I was like, oh my God, what have I signed up for? No, no, no. But as you say, you start mapping everything out across all these different big marketing people I've spoken to, it's fascinating. And it's like, you know, John Hegarty said to me, a brand is the most valuable piece of real estate in the world, dot, dot, dot, the cornerstone of someone's mind.

28:05And as you've said, linking to your stuff, mate, all about like the intangible layer, that bit that goes over the top, that actually has a point of view. And so how can you be, if you're looking at Amelia's point of view, the only way you can really be with Bowl being a cornerstone in someone's mind out of those three options, soil, eating less meat, or foodie beans, making you assess with beans by giving you the best of beans. But that suddenly becomes the most salient option to pick, and you've got the resources and you push that forward. But anyway, so sorry, Seth was saying to me that strategy is upstream from tactics.

28:41and essentially the more you do strategy, the better it gets, the more you do tactics, some tactics like price promotion, the worse they get. Where do you sit on that with the strategy and the tactics? We can either use Bowl Bean and or another brand, like that interplay, because I've seen it whereby a lot of people are using tactics and thinking it's a strategy. And it kind of links to this point of like, we'll give you a free extra coffee. that's not a position or a point of difference or a purpose 2.0 in the world. That's just a tactic. Or like we're investing 1 % of our profits to fucking whatever, you know, but well, you ain't making any profit, mate.

29:21So it's kind of a great irony, isn't it? Where would you sit on that? Oh, it's so interesting. I heard that and I thought it was really kind of profound. I think it speaks to businesses that probably are finding themselves in a really bad place, if I can be candid. If you find there is a hard delineation in your business between strategy and tactics and you're trying to upweight one and downweight the other, that is a bit of a crisis point, I would say. And the reason why is because the value of strategy is its ability to kind of simplify and clarify decision-making around every single tactic.

29:55So in a really highly, you know, or a very powerful organization, at least from my view as a brand guy, there's a really clear sense of what the brand's about. They've done that hard fight of kind of going, this is the tension that we resolve in our consumers' lives. We're super clear on it. We've bought into it. We've left other stuff on the table at the cost of this because we've bought in so much. And now every tactic we do has to be able to be connected to that mission. Yes. That's what he says, yes. And I don't want that to be read as, okay, well then we're only doing big, cool, sexy stuff.

30:28A promotion can achieve a mission. You know, when I see Bold Bean go on sale and I think of their mission to welcome more people into the world of brands, into the world of beans and make more people obsessed with beans. I'm like, well, that tactic perfectly aids that mission because actually creating a lower cost entry point for a certain amount of time lives up to the mission. And when I see them kind of innovating around a recipe book, I also see them living that mission. So if you're in a situation where tactics and strategy feel like they're in opposition, that's really, really tricky because if there's no tactics attached to a strategy, it's never going to happen.

31:02Are there any brand examples that have done that, maybe big brands? Not necessarily that you've worked with, but any brands that have gone where the strategy has sort of swam away from the tactics? Oh, heaps. I think there's lots of organizations where brand isn't firmly rooted in the operational system of a business. I wouldn't want to name any, because it's not particularly fair, but there are a handful of brands who put... Or it could be a brand like years ago, not like currently. Yeah. So like, you know, probably the CMOs have passed away. But in the history of advertising stuff. I think you can think of something like insurance.

31:40Like insurance is, people kind of think about it in an incredibly rational way. You know, we just need to make sure we guarantee it. I think people could think about, you know, it's only about price. People are never really going to understand these policies. And so, you know, the key levers, and I'm thinking kind of a few decades ago for the insurance category, were, you know, price effectively and, you know, some kind of commitment to safety. And then I think there's been this kind of great breakthrough where people have been far more playful and, you know, made jokes about kind of what goes on.

32:11Interesting. And I think they've kind of gone, oh, God, like this whole category has left the lever of brand on the table. We're going to kind of embrace that. Brands like, I suppose, in banking, like Monzo coming into the market, Revolut. 100%. Interesting. And there was another thing that, again, John said there's a great book about marketing air. And what he means is a lot of the services we're buying now are stuff that is actually literally air, like Vodafone, mobile services, broadband. And it's like an interesting... And that shows the intelligibility of, as you say, the intelligibility of a brand because we are literally flogging air.

32:49Or maybe it might be oxygen or air, if I would have said, yeah. But what a great example, the way that people can feel so differently about 3 or Vodafone and BT. I think that's the thing that always made me so interested in this dimension of brand. I was like, right, people sit around and come up with what they want that feeling to be. And they have a point of view on why feeling a certain way about air is going to be more valuable than feeling another way about air. I was like, what a brilliantly kind of creative and ambitious and like new space to kind of play. I just thought it was badass. Sick.

33:17What are some of your sort of, with that, swimming down that lane, in terms of the most proud work you've done in terms of creating that feeling out of nothing? How did you specifically get me into the weeds at how you planned, plotted, pontificated and got the fucker moving, you know? Yeah, well, look, there's been tons of stuff. Let me think of a good example. You know, look, well, this place works with this incredible array of bands from British Airways to Instagram to the ordinary to startups like Bold Bean. So we get to work across this incredible spread of clients and all of them approach brand in a similar way to what we're talking, albeit to very, very different ends.

34:10One brand that we've been on a really fascinating journey with is The Ordinary, I think, the skincare brand. you know they were this kind of powerhouse really this kind of incredibly inventive and disruptive brand right that had this kind of point of view that people just paying for so much guff in that category you know what i mean like category guff's a great word oh my god like that could be a podcast in of itself you know we're talking a little bit about having a gripe how like a problem can make you go further you know this kind of sense of like actually the real heroes of the skincare category are the ingredients but let's think about all the stuff that like that categories put around skincare, celebrity endorsement, the crazy names, the insane packaging.

34:48It was like a complete distraction from what the real hero was. And that frustration that kind of grew ordinary was really, really powerful. That brand's been this incredible success over the last kind of decade but was looking to scale. And I'm just really kind of proud of the very interesting ways that we've kind of helped that brand capture that magic. You know, I talked a little bit before how sometimes your job is to kind of create something, you know, help a brand find it. I think in The Ordinary's case, it was very much about channeling something that really existed there. And what was hard to be, because that's another point with this, is sometimes it's channel something that's already existed.

35:22Sometimes it's like looking internally into a brand or as a leader, as a founder. And you can get so distracted by the panoply of different options that you could pursue that it kind of blinds you from seeing the very thing. Keep the main thing, the main thing. What was the challenge with that? And look, we've talked a lot about how brand strategy is out there, right? What's going on in your consumer's life? What is going on in culture that you might be able to fix? But actually that first question around what resources, and we talked a little bit about how a founder's energy is probably one of the big resources.

35:52It means that actually the first thing the brands really need to do is turn inwards. The best brand strategy, particularly for established brands, is kind of archaeology versus creative invention. So the job really isn't to sit around and kind of go, oh my God, wouldn't it be cool if the brand could do this? Because brands really can't outrun their origin story. You know, fundamentally in the walls of an organization is a sense of what that brand's about. And as fantastic as it would be able to move a brand to a certain area or to chase a certain trend, fundamentally brands start for a certain reason.

36:24Yes. I think, you know, think about yourself. Like this empire, this media empire will grow to a certain level at some point, you know, and you'll kind of go, oh, my God, could we go into this or could we move into this? What you'll find is you'll have to go back to the initial idea around what this brand was. mate I like yeah yeah as I said to you like yeah so I get these inbound opportunities now so the other way the other week I looked there my mate's like I've got a site in Shoreditch by where Box Park used to be he was like do you want to do a hungry food festival I get like excited like a little kid run down there next thing I know I've got a fucking hard hat on next thing I know I'm in Shoreditch house having an ADHD orgy meeting no one's taking notes I'm like yeah we could do we could do a Thailand we could do a whole fucking Thailand thing so one day it's Thailand then we could do a pizza fest then we could do a then we could do like a different almost like a series and like and then i was just sort of gone like what are we doing yeah what like what is the the reason we're here i mean i'm maybe kind of going through that now it's where i really believe like you know distractions masquerades opportunities and it's trying to you get to a point where you get bombarded and sort of like a tornado or avalanche of um inbound stuff that you can't work out what what you're doing and it's one of the things i've decided to do is just i don't do you know the brand purdy and fig yeah reuben's a really good mate of mine he literally ripped like we used to get on it and stuff and party when we're at uni together and um he used and we used to talk about business ideas and all this and he was just saying the thing with focus is always do it two years longer than you think you need to and it's like it's a really good like mental model because it's like everything else probably isn't needed right now and it's it's tricky isn't it i don't know how to but you're right it's about looking inwardly yeah well look i think in that instance it kind of reminds me a little bit of that chat we're just having around tactics for a strategy yeah which is you know sometimes it feels like their intention but really it's about actually can that move be in service of the brand's mission yeah and this actually like you know maybe just to round out that point around purpose 2.0 and why i think it's important is because we're at a moment I think, where people are really ready to turn their back on purpose.

38:29We're so over an era of brands over-representing the way brands talk and feel so overextended. So when I talk a little bit about a shrunk ambition for a brand, it's not because I'm down on purpose. It's actually because I'm trying to preserve it against, I don't know, a much smaller vision of what brands can be. But it's fundamentally because I do believe that brands need a really active role in their consumers' lives. They do need an interface with the world. They do need when people say, do you want to come on, be involved in this opportunity or do you want to extend in this way? This really clear sense of self that allows them to kind of quite quickly answer whether it's a hell yes or a hell no.

39:05Again, there's a business component which might mean resource wise it's not the right time. But when it comes to what that brand exists to do and what it wants to add to the lives of its consumers, we do need that kind of simple interface. And I am really worried that we're going to kind of abandon that kind of view of brands as kind of active, involved in the lives of consumers with a point of view on the world we're going to abandon that view in an effort to kind of solve some of the problems we solve with the first iteration of purpose yeah the purpose the purpose thing's interesting because it's almost become this has become commonplace hasn't it yeah and a bit of a cliche yeah yeah cliche yeah it's not really a it's not really and almost disconnected from brand now it's like oh well the brand needs a purpose but we won't use that really in conversations around business and we won't really using conversations around marketing because it's actually this big audacious goal which is you know we exist to bring you know more happiness to every corner of life and you'll find out it's a candy brand or something like that like it's become very disconnected also i think like what i love about what you're doing with bold beans specifically is there's this whole thing of we need a massive why like what's your big why and actually you can start with a small why and over time like the why today is going to change tomorrow yeah right i think seth talks about this which is the circle of us versus the circle of now, which is he says brands should try.

40:25It doesn't happen to happen on fucking day one. I think people now think day one I have to solve world hunger through selling popcorn. He's like, over time, expand your circle of us, sort of the people who the brand looks after. So it could be, you know, the circle of us for Bold Bean would be foodies right now. Over time, that may become farmers. Over time, that may become meat eaters. and then the circle of now is like the time frame of doing it over and that's the difference is it's like what Seth's essentially saying is people try and solve everything off the bat it's like just if you extrapolate time as long as the circle of us is extending and the circle of now is getting longer that's a really nice way of like framing things and I think it links perfectly to your sort of how do we actually get into our consumers lives and solve their problems That's a really great circle of now.

41:18Sorry, circle of ours right now, but that can extend over time. In terms of, like you said, you work with some of those bigger brands and actually they struggle to find their, small brands have so many problems they could solve. Big brands need to create problems. Let's look at it from that side. How do brands struggle, the bigger they are, to find their strategy? Yeah, well, I think, you know, a lot of times you can, you know, when a big client kind of reaches out to a partner or is looking for a new brand strategy, it's often because there's just a sense of lethargy in the place. Like people kind of fill the mojos off.

42:02People kind of go, there's thousands of people coming to work every day and they don't really know what they're doing. They know what they're doing, but they don't know what it adds up to. And there's that absence of meaning, you know. Interesting. And these are ginormous organizations. with super smart people in it, right? If the answer was obvious, they could do it. And frankly, I think if business leaders were kind of going, well, we don't know exactly what it is, but people think we're fixed about eight things, you know, and they're really excited about those eight things, I don't think they would reach out to a partner like us.

42:33It's usually because actually all the meaning is gone. You know, it's like, right, what the hell do we exist to do anymore? Just a little bit closer. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that's like a question of what the hell do we exist to do anymore? But then it actually, a bit back to the point we're saying, it's like brands can't really outrun their origin story. If you go back and search what that brand was initially about, often there's something kind of incredibly powerful in that. And I think often when we're working with big brands, sometimes the job is to reconnect them with that kind of history or that origin story.

43:04And what's amazingly powerful is sometimes when you click that back into place, like, you know, it sounds kind of like woo-woo, but like there is just something in the ether of an organization that goes, yeah, hell yeah, yeah, that's why we existed. Now, it might need a little bit of recalibration to kind of exist in a new era, but, you know, there's something kind of really, really powerful in that. Yeah, I think what you said, the brand archaeology versus creative invention. Yeah. Is there an example where you've gone through the archaeology of the brand and found that gem of origin story that you turned into a sparkling piece of purpose?

43:38Well, look, you know, a client I worked with for a long time was B &Q, and, you know, B &Q found themselves at that kind of moment, you know, massively successful business in lots of ways, household name, lots of stores, business doing well, you know, not terrible, not kind of facing a crisis. But, you know, with enough kind of headwinds that kind of the team there was starting to kind of go, you know, this brand probably needs to be stronger. You know, there's a lot going on in that category, certainly when we met them that forced them to kind of ask that question. And what's really interesting about B &Q is that you get to the heart of that story.

44:11It's like, well, B &Q is not a made-up name. It represents the two people who found it, Block and Quail. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are they from? The two, you know, blokes from the UK. Block, his name was Block? No, two, like two guys. It's Robert. Oh, was it their surname? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, I thought his name was Block. No, that would be an amazing name for the time. So Block and Quail. Yes, and when they, previous to that, if you want to buy things like plaster or a hammer, you have to be kind of a tradesman because the only place you could kind of buy that stuff was from trade stores and, you know, you'd have to have the kind of right access to be able to do something like that, right?

44:49They had this kind of radical belief that regular homeowners should be allowed to or had the capacity to kind of improve their homes. And in that incredibly positive story about people, you know, that kind of fundamental belief in what people are capable of doing, what we kind of saw like a kind of future of the business is kind of ability for people to kind of move their lives forward when they wanted to. And we ended up kind of recognizing that actually the DIY business is often associated with chores. It's like something you kind of, oh, my God, like the tap's leaking. Oh, God, I need the, you know, the room needs kind of sprucing up.

45:27Like it's often talked about as if it's a chore. I've just moved into a place, I'm looking at Carpenter, and I just fucking did my editing. Yeah, but you know what's really powerful on the other side of that is that actually what people associate with it is change. So people don't see, oh, I need to fix up the carpet. They start to kind of go, God, if I did that, I'd have a completely different room. Or maybe if I put a patio out there, I'd have a stage for summer. Or maybe if I had a different kitchen, my teenage kids would hang around a little bit more. So people thinking a lot more about change.

45:52So what we did in our journey with them was kind of really reconnect the brand with this very optimistic view in people and what they're capable of doing and kind of move the category from being one all about chores to change. because actually two guys, however many years ago, had this kind of view that regular people, yeah, 50 years, 60 years or something like that, had the capacity to kind of impact their own lives. And that was kind of the answer to so many kind of parts of that kind of brand's, you know, desire for a new energy. And then when you just still it into a sentence, what was that process like?

46:24You know, really, again, like sometimes when you just land upon these things, it becomes really, really quickly. And I find like those sentences tend to move, go in one of two stages. as a long hand sentence, which broadly kind of centered around like B &Q exists to empower people to kind of move their lives forward. And the expression that we ended up using that became kind of a consumer facing expression, but also a replacement for that line was... That's really, I love it when I like stumble upon nuance. Because I think that's a thing. So I like this, mate, in the sense that you say you do probably have a slightly longer one for you to like look at.

46:57Become precise, yeah. But also maybe longer. So when you're making decisions, because that can be heuristic for making a decision that's on brand. But then also I suppose the shorter one, which is more pithy and like, you know, the think different with Apple or whatever. Yeah. That's, because I think a lot of people think, and I know this, they're like, fuck me, I have to get it down to four words. It's like, give yourself a bit of space to create something. 100%. Wow. Okay. Okay. Okay. So yeah, sorry. What was the long one? And that was the long one. And then the short one was build a life. Build a life.

47:26Yeah. Interesting. And I think you're right. You couldn't peer into the expression of Build a Life and kind of go, I know exactly what that brand's about. But having been on a journey together, had that kind of slightly longer expression, which I probably kind of butchered ever so slightly. You know, what Build a Life was, was that shorthand for this idea that we believe in the power of people to kind of move their life forward through DIY. But I think that long form piece, because I think the thing about strategies, a big part of this is how do you make decisions? you know the stressful thing is pick your customers pick your future pick your competitors pick your future so you've got to make a choice and having a longer longer sentence gives you gives you more space to use it as a as a as a compass when you're navigating the sort of the seas of decision making was I think one of the mistakes I've probably got people listening to make think I've got to get it into one sentence yeah how can I use it for my map and I was like hang on a sec interesting are there any other nuances or contrarian views you have about like about anything marketing brand go for it um well i think one thing we maybe haven't talked like exactly about is like the power of tension yes um you know when when kind of building a brand strategy you know the thing that we are always obsessed with is where's the tension because attention kind of tends to exist in the world where you see people's values out of step with their day-to-day practices so we're really interested in these places where like basically the question boils down to this where are people forced to live their life a certain way when they'd much rather live in a different way and brands can kind of meet those tensions in really really interesting ways um you know so i think any kind of brand builder or brand author out there might want to take this kind of framework and this kind of inquiry of kind of going okay how can i become really good at tensions how can i start kind of seeing consumers through the lens of kind of people who are often doing stuff but kind of wish things were a different way any examples of that like in the world right now?

49:25Yeah. Walk out on Farringdon. You know, probably kind of tons of them. You know, look, I think, let's go back to B &Q. I think the kind of really interesting tension at the heart of that brand was this kind of sense of like, we were living in an incredibly automated world, right? You can order Amazon to your house. You can order Uber to your house. Like, actually, we're feeling more and more powerless about our lives. So actually, the act of being in control or doing something yourself was becoming this quite radical act. You know, there's something quite romantic to it. And that's a very different reality to maybe where we were a while ago, where the idea of that just sounded like labor.

49:58It's like, no, actually now it's kind of quite remarkable. Like it's kind of quite cool at the moment to be able to feel like we can pick up a hammer and change something in our lives. That's kind of like badass. But, you know, again, it's that kind of sense of where are people's kind of lives out of step with their kind of like practices. I think you can see it in lots of corners. Now, you know, it's not like to say every element of human life is rife with tension. Of course not. We wouldn't be able to live that way. But wherever you can kind of find that, it becomes kind of super, super interesting.

50:25And so once the, say I'm a brand owner and they find the tension, as you called it, what are the next steps and where does the strategy sort of infiltrate that tension? I think the tension really is the way to kind of think about the consumer landscape. We're talking about the resource of the brand, like what do you bring to the fight? But the most meaningful fights are going to be where there's a tension. You know, where is stuff going on in the world that you can act? So I think as we were mapping out Bold Bean's kind of tensions before, I think that's a really interesting place to map. Not just stuff that's of interest, but where are the consumer tensions?

50:57Where are the frictions in people's lives? What were those? You know, like I said, like, you know, there's a tension around kind of soil. Maybe not the most profound tension, but you could kind of argue that we all kind of want the world to be a bit better and we're feeling a little bit helpless about it. So a brand that would allow us to contribute towards farmland being better, that's a tension. There's another tension, of course, around, you know, we love meat, but we all should be eating less meat. That's a tension. And then lastly, though, I think most of us feel like we'd love to have an identity of being slightly more foodie, a bit more knowledgeable about stuff that's going on, but don't necessarily have the know-how or the kind of power to do so.

51:33How would you find tensions in other categories? Is this art or science? It's empathy. It's big doses of EQ. And I think one thing that makes a really, really powerful brand builder is an expert just in consumer art. You know, and a real expert, not just in the kind of abstract sense of I know the numbers, I know the size, I can tell you how many of them, I can tell you where they live. But that EQ component, you know, like what actually is going on in people's lives, where's the kind of friction and the kind of anger at the moment, you know, where is stuff out of step or where do people wish stuff was a slightly different way?

52:05Is that, how does, if someone's trying to develop that EQ, is that how would they go around doing that, do you think? Just spend a lot of time somewhere. You know, just immerse yourself in it. I think it's very hard to do from behind a desktop. You kind of want to be in and around the kind of people you're trying to serve, I think, to understand a little bit more. Yes, interesting. And I hadn't thought of it like that way. In terms of a brand like, say, British Airways, and the feeling, intangible feeling piece, how do they, what's their strategy? Because again, especially airlines, it feels like it's so saturated.

52:38Yeah. How do they create the feeling? Yeah, well, I think they've kind of got this, they've stumbled across this kind of really, really powerful idea. You know, obviously they're a ginormous airline, but they're fundamentally a British airline, aren't they? And so you kind of ask yourself the question of like, well, what does that add to the world? Why does that need to exist? And actually one of the most kind of powerful kind of expressions of that is one of the big, and we talked a bit about this at the start of the pod, but like one of the big contributions this country has made is in exporting its creativity.

53:05Like, you know, this kind of sense of like actually, you know, whether it's the Beatles or the music or one of the UK's biggest contributions to the world is creativity. And so this kind of flip from being an airline to actually exporters of British originality was this kind of powerful kind of unlock. You know, what an amazing place to kind of like go to work every day where you kind of go, we're not simply an airline, we're actually in the business of exporting one of the most kind of precious resources in this country, the originality and the creativity. And it just was a very, very different frame to think about travel, you know, completely and start to kind of recognise that actually, you know, a brand like British Airways should probably have a conversation and point of view on Britain, what it is, and this kind of very romantic view that actually this is a country made up of originals.

53:47And you do kind of feel that. I certainly kind of love that kind of sentiment and do kind of see this kind of pulsing creativity through the UK and kind of going like, actually, that's what this nation is. It's a kind of collection of this kind of incredibly originals and the world would be a less colourful, less interesting place without the UK. Mate, that's so... Yeah, because one thing I was going to ask you is, why London? What pulls you here? What do you notice for it from your perspective? Because I think, yeah, what is that for you? Yeah, like I find the London, particularly UK generally, like one of the most like inspiring places.

54:19And I kind of grew up as an Anglophile. Like I was like always - What's that? Like someone just obsessed with the UK. Yeah, because I wrote a thing the other day on LinkedIn about basically like stop fucking slamming, because everyone's like, everyone's leaving, going to Dubai. But that's another reason why I love the UK. Because like that's like, that's what you guys do. But I was just like, it just winds me up no end. And I was like, stop slamming the UK. Like we've got actually - Yeah, but they do it. is so funny as well. Like, so I was, I just grow up like at a time when like, you know, like my kind of, it was really during the indie scene.

54:49Enemy was huge. I'd always go to like - What sort of bands did you like? Oh, like all the indie scenes. Like Folk's were kind of one of my favourite brands growing up. And then went through the Klaxons thing. And then, you know, when there was that kind of thing of like a new indie band a week, like you had Hard Fire and then you had the music and you had all these other guys, like just an insane kind of like moment. I was kind of reading these like two week old airmail copied of like Enemy. I was just obsessed with the idea of the UK. came over here a bunch when I was kind of like younger. And then I decided to move here.

55:16I was that guy back home and everyone was like, look, you either have to move to London or you have to stop talking about it. You have been like talking about, I was the guy who was going to move to London for about four years and they're like, you have to kind of go or shut up. So that kind of brought it to a head and I kind of moved over. And to be honest, I actually kind of find it like, it's actually quite a hard place to land at first. Because? You know, the weather's kind of a bit different than it is in Sydney. I could think I could say that. I kind of think about London, there's not a lot of soft edges, you know what I mean?

55:43Like, you know, you hop on the bus, people don't say hello to the bus driver, you know, it's like, you know. Aggressive, yeah. Yeah, you know, people are, you know, it's just a bigger city. People don't go out of their way to say hello. It's just a very different dynamic to where I was at before. But I've actually ended up finding one of the most inspiring places. I love, like, the creativity is placed, I think across all creative spheres, like, you know, whether it's the commercial creative sphere that I'm in, but music, fashion, like, I think some of the most interesting places are here. What's so interesting about London specifically, is if you go, everything's here.

56:13So I interviewed, linked to me, a guy, Rory linked me, the guy. That's probably the best way to say it. But this guy called David Cleveley, fucking tech, Don, built like these massive, built the Cambridge network. And he's got a great book called, owns Bocca de Lupo as well. Serendipity, it doesn't happen by accident. Interviewed him the other week. And he was basically saying, you have this, what you want is, One, people to have a curious mind, prepared mind. Two, you need people to be, the systems and the networks to kind of have this cross-pollination of different, as you say, bands, art, fashion, theatre.

56:54That melting pot creates this kind of serendipity and this creativity blossoms. I think conversely, like, if you go to America, it's like if you want to go into politics, you go to Washington. If you want to go into Hollywood, you go to LA. If you want to go into finance, you go into New York. Like, we have it all in one little weird small place. It's mad, isn't it? Yeah. Have you ever read, like, the author Stephen Johnson? No. So he, I think, it's fair to say, kind of was really instrumental in kind of breaking the kind of metaphorical image of where creativity comes from. It used to be Newton under a tree, apple hits you in the head, oh, my, eureka moment.

57:32And this idea that creativity, like, was a lightning bolt that struck kind of the genius mind. and he, you know, in a similar way to you've just described, did all this kind of research and exploration and, you know, looked into the science, looked into the kind of experience of creatives, all this kind of stuff, and actually found that that's a terrible metaphor. Actually, what we have in our head at any given time, these kind of buzzing hypotheses, that we need to clash with new stimulus. And so it's why, like, intuitively, I think we all know it, when we're really stuck on something, we don't want to sit at our desk and kind of go, come on, come on, crack, you want to get out.

58:03And it's because your brain is just searching for that slightly different kind of stimulus that opens up and allows you to see something in a different way. And the book Where Good Ideas Come From is just transformational, so you should read it. Where Good Ideas Come From. Yeah, it's this incredible book. And they talk a little bit about the scientists who kind of discovered DNA. They had been playing around with the concept and could kind of spot something that was starting to help them understand it, but they couldn't really make sense of what they were seeing. And this is where you're kind of like, my lack of scientific knowledge will really kind of show here.

58:39But, you know, they kind of were trying to conceptualize in their mind what DNA was based on everything that they were seeing. And then being the massive brainiac that they were, they kind of went home and their kind of evening reading was all about mythology. And they're reading about the Orysboros, that kind of snake that eats itself, that circular snake. Wow. And it was at that moment that they kind of like conceived this idea of the double helix, something that kind of turned back on itself. and you know what I mean? It's just a great example. My example is more like walking around kind of Broadway market and looking at like some people's fashion and how that kind of inspires me.

59:11This is kind of like reading mythology to unlock kind of a massive scientific discovery. But I think they're both just as important. I was just so transformed by that kind of process, which is like, oh shit, like actually we kind of carry around these unsolved problems in our head and then our brain is desperately trying to clash in with new stimulus to kind of open up the way you might see it. And it's like, oh right, this kind of completely tangential thing has helped me see in a different way. So how's, on that note then, how's London more creative or slightly differently creative to Sydney?

59:37I just think the density of kind of like stimulus here is insane. Like, you know, I like the area I live in kind of East London, I think is some of the most kind of creative people. I'm like so inspired by the fashion. I think, you know, music here, you know, I don't, can't speak eloquently exactly where it kind of comes from. But like the kind of music scene here is just amazing. I don't know if it comes from a reaction of boredom or, you know, the weather or just a kind of great lineage now of incredible kind of music and creativity and so much in the ether. I don't know, but the density of creativity here is kind of mad.

1:00:08And I also just think that the density of stimulus is like, you know, we're just sitting on the roof before and like the architecture that you look at. Oh, mate. Yeah. For listeners, they view up the top of this place. Yeah. And I said, no, no, we must be back to the basement for our thing. it's just so interesting to see your perspective mate on it and then like what was sort of surprising about coming to London surprised you that's a good question I'm going to grab this coffee that's been delivered do you want more coffee yeah yeah yeah go for it yeah surprised me so what's what surprised me what surprised you about London when you got here so like for example I went to Columbia

1:00:52that's a bit different yeah no no sorry I'm just saying from my perspective as a Brit going to Columbia is I was sort of just kind of what surprised me about them is just how part of culturally and anthropologically is how party people they are they fucking love a party I mean I probably should have known that but like and you actually see it there you're like fucking hell but then also just how the infrastructure there is pretty, is awful compared to the UK. And it's like something you don't think about. It's like, if a train says it's going to be in two minutes in the UK, and this one's hilarious, it's all moaning about the fucking underground.

1:01:32Like, oh my God, the fucking tube strikes, the fucking... But it's like, mate, go to Columbia. Like, it may say two minutes, but it could be two days before your train walked up. Like, that's what I'm trying to... That's the turn I'm trying to pull. Like, in that way, everything, you know... Um, but this is amazing dialogue between Australia and the UK that makes it like super novel to come to London. Like we've both got pubs. Yeah. But there's a slightly different vibe. And so, you know, like we could have a big argument over what the right beer size is. Cause like in New South Wales, where I'm from, like you get a schooner that's more like a - New South Wales, is that a city or a state?

1:02:10Sydney. Yeah, it's a state. So I'm from Sydney. So you get like a 380 mil beer here. And so like a pint glass is a lot bigger, you know, and so like we can have a long debate over what is the optimal side. I've got very strong kind of feelings on that. Yeah, which is, go on. I'm serious because like I watched the thing and the guy was like, mate, the reason I love London is you have full fucking pints. And I was like, and then the other thing goes, the reason I love London is because of M &S. I think the worst, like the last two sips of any beer are the worst. I just think they're so manky by the way.

1:02:39So I'm like, you wouldn't have this issue with a schooner glass. So true. But at the same time, you're still in a pub and we're talking about, like, the difference of 100 mils. Do you know what I mean? So this is what's so great between the places. Like, there's great familiarity, but there's kind of slight differences. You know, I do think the creativity, like, everyone talks about, like, New York and, you know, other kind of sea centers. Like, the creativity in London is insane. And just of the people, of the kind of culture. Yeah, like I said. Again, it's the David Cleveley thing, which I think the Brits do really well.

1:03:16Maybe it's because it's a small country, but it's this idea of coopetition, cooperation and competition, whereby the rock bands are competing, for example, to get on stage, but they're actually kind of mates as well. So they're sharing ideas. They're sharing how they got there. You see this as an art as well. You see this in fucking podcasts. I've always said I spent a lot of time in Lisbon because my mate was out there and I love it, it's a city but I basically bosher all the food in like three weeks whereas this is like there's constantly a new restaurant starts competition, cooperate because they become friends, it gets better and better and better and better so you said, interesting you said some of my favourite brands but bands, and I think some of the best I think there's a lot of lessons brands can learn from bands some...

1:04:38what would you say as something, One is conviction. You know, we were talking a little bit before about strategy versus tactics. Like bands aren't swinging, changing their vibe or what they think is cool or their style. Yes. Well, at least the best brands. Like, do you know what I mean? Like - Oasis. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, they're still rocking Stone Island after all - You're walking down on that. Yeah, exactly. Like Stone Island, there's just so much conviction there and like, it's amazing. There's this incredible quote. I don't know if you ever heard of their quote about like, I don't want to get the award show wrong, but like one of the award shows and they'll ask to play and they said like, right, like if you don't play this award show, your career will be ruined.

1:05:17And he'll say like, the kind of quote was like, like I'll choose when I ruin my career, not you. Like who the fuck are you? Was this Oasis? Yeah, Oasis. And just that kind of conviction is just amazing. I think that's definitely the other thing. And then, you know, to circle it back to the world of Strat, like there's also the whole thing around fame, you know like that actually what bands have is they're incredibly famous like they're driven by fame and i think fame has become a little bit of a dirty word amongst kind of certain kind of pockets of brand we are like oh we're maybe a bit scared of being famous well we don't necessarily want to be out there but fame really is the thing that grows brands like the fact that like you know as soon as you say oasis like we both want to like launch into a 40 minute kind of conversation over best song you know best things what happened what do you make of the concert that like the fact that like we're talking about it because we both know it and we both have a point of view on it and like we're both like reacting to it, like that is the fuel for it.

1:06:11And like bands use it and they don't kind of chase that obviously, but like you can see it play the kind of power of fame. I also think it's like that's your resources point is when you study bands is they use their resources. Yeah, 100%. And so it's like if you look at Liam Gallagher's an incredible front man, but he's say comparatively to Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger's dancing around in like... It's very different, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but that's what I'm trying to say. In the best kind of way, yeah. But they're using their resources. They're not trying to be something they're not. They're not trying to conjure up things that aren't in their archaeology or their wheelhouse anyway.

1:06:43And like Gallagher, he walks out, he's got that fucking tambourine on his head and he's just like, do the Ponzi, whatever it is there. Whereas like, you know, Mick Jagger's whole thing is dancing around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there's definitely a lesson in using your own resources to create your own fame. Yeah, yeah. How can brands create their... Again, this is probably the many dollar question, but it's an important question, is how can brands begin to think about creating fame? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've probably made like a kind of a hard right turn out of Oasis to say, well, wouldn't it be easy if you were as famous as Oasis?

1:07:15And everyone's going to tune out. Like, it's not really the point. There's been a lot of research as to like what makes the most powerful kind of brand comms or communication from people. And if you broadly bracket it down, there's this kind of rational comms. Hey, we use twice as many peanuts in our kind of peanut butter. That's a rational job. So there's two types of comms, rational comms? Three types. Rational, emotional, and then fame. Rational, you know, twice as many, whatever, half the sugar, you know, half the price. Second is emotional. Like, actually, when you give your kids this chocolate bar, you're not giving them chocolate, you're giving them love.

1:07:52god doesn't make me feel kind of amazing as a parent that there's the emotional strategy and there's a third bucket which is a bit hard to categorize because its main impact is like holy shit have you seen that like i just have to talk to people about it and and comms that play in that area just called fame and what we see is the most powerful form of comms is that third bucket fame rational is the least emotional moves the dial a lot more that makes sense we're more emotional creatures than we are rational but what really kind of accelerates brands is fame when you hit that kind of holy shit did you see that like when like the brand kind of leaves the kind of like advertising sphere and ends up in whatsapp and you know instagram dms and watercaller chat that really is steroids for brands wow so you know you asked how do you get there right like i think the first thing to do is to know that i actually think there's a lot of brands that have a really uncomfortable relationship with fame like are we really happy to be that prolific are we really that happy for two people having a conversation that we're not able to moderate or change.

1:08:49Like that is an uncomfortable kind of thought experiment for some people. Some people like to kind of remain a little bit kind of niche. Then the next thing I think, if you're thinking about fame is fame is conversation, right? Like two people talking about the brand, you know, thing that's going on. I've always had this belief that you could maybe be so creative that you could create something that I'd be like, oh my God, have you seen this thing? We just have to talk about this. The old Spice ad, right? Back in the day, like, I don't know if you were around for that but i was like is that like he's walking down the beach yeah yeah yeah well there we go everyone was talking about the ad like yeah it was just an ad that was so brilliantly written so brilliantly shot so hilarious that everyone was like talking about it but actually it's quite hard to manufacture conversation so it's much easier to run towards where there's already a conversation and kind of play play there um you know and so back to that point around tension wherever there's kind of heat and friction there tends to be a little bit of conversation god like God, I really wish things, like, this is so infuriating the way things are.

1:09:46So I actually just, you know, have a kind of a question, which is, like, how many brands put fame as their number one KPI? Like, we must be seen. We must have people talking about it. Sorry to interrupt. You know, Perfect Ted. You've seen them? Teddy's a really good mate, been on the podcast a few times. Perfect example of tension. So, you know, the London tube strikes, again, that's all kicking off about it. Oh, fucking hell. Lime bike. everyone was going mental about getting a lime bike. They got up early in the morning. Well, I don't know that they did that, but I think they must have done.

1:10:21Kind of such a silly point that, but anyway. And they were launching their new lime flavoured matchup, put them in the baskets of the lime bikes. So that's the fame, tension, and kind of like, yeah, that's so interesting. Then also, I suppose, solving a problem as well. I don't want to speak for those guys because I'm not close to that brand. I love the brand and am so impressed by their success. But if I was going to break down what I've seen them do across some of the dimensions we've talked about, actually they recognize there's kind of a pretty interesting kind of tension in people's lives, which is not as ginormous as kind of world hunger, but it's simply like, God, there's so much heat around matcha at the moment, but it's really hard to make and get and access.

1:11:04Like how many people are getting up and kind of whisking their matcha every morning? there's kind of this kind of massive curiosity and interest in matchup, but actually quite a big kind of barrier to entry. The product just kind of solves amazingly. And then you start to kind of think about some of the levers that they've kind of pulled, like going on Dragon's Den, such a kind of strong pitch, you know, kind of got Stephen involved. Are levers tactics? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd probably kind of call levers like tactics, you know. But all of a sudden they've started kind of, you know, creating a lot of fame.

1:11:35I feel like, you know, at any given time, like three or four people in this office talking about Perfect Ten, having an opinion on it. Oh my God, you know, they've got a new flavor. Oh my God, you know, this person's on board. Like they seem to have a really kind of strong flywheel around. And there's an interesting thing going on, like around, you know, how some of these food brands are creating. Because there's always an ecosystem. If you can jump on, it becomes incredibly powerful. What do you mean by that? Well, like if you can get in front of Dragon's Den, have a great kind of soundbite that comes out of that, that's kind of like instant kind of fame if you kind of play it right.

1:12:03If you get the right kind of founder on board, whether through Dragon's Den or elsewhere, that can be kind of a moment. There's a real curiosity in the food scene at the moment. So people are interested in who's making moves, who's taking on investment. So there is a lot of kind of fame going on around that, which I think is powering a lot of brands. And I think it'd be so much more powerful if brands also ask themselves, well, what are we going to do to kind of like agitate that kind of conversation? It's such an interesting point. Because the other thing, Lincoln, is sort of culturally is there's the whole, again, I think our cultures definitely share.

1:12:35this is the sort of tall poppy syndrome, which is like, don't get above your station, whereas the Americans are like, bro, let's get a hair through, baby. Like, do you know what I mean? Whereas I think there's, but actually, it kind of does feel a bit uncomfortable to say to a British brand and or founder, like, are you going to be famous? How do you be famous? Be famous as an objective. And actually, the more I think about it, the brands I probably do reference the most in my newsletters on the podcast are Bold Bean, are Perfect Head, are Dash. I think the Dash audaciousness of Dash when they did the, I don't know if you saw the, it was like a Coke, Cola, the red one, not the red one, you know, the Coke Zero.

1:13:15Yeah. They fucking smashed, put the Dash thing over it. It was like, you know, drink to feel good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super interesting. Yeah. How do you think about brand strategy having to change as the world changes and because I think the consumers change as you move from sort of early adopters to that mass market. So everything you're saying, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, and this is maybe going to be a little bit controversial. Brand strategy really should be done once and then set. Interesting. I don't really believe in pivoting across growth. I think you have to reconcile the challenge of what can we do and stand for today that's going to be just as relevant as we scale.

1:14:02Is that a mistake you think a lot of brands make because they suddenly think as we get bigger we need to reinvent them? Yeah, and sometimes there's that philosophy. I also just think there is a lot of chopping and changing of strategy. Things have dramatically changed, but brands really only have a set amount of options available to them. We like to think that actually we could bring out a piece of paper and Perfect Ted could be a super premium product tomorrow and only sell at this price point or actually could go into cola and have something without matchup. Actually, brands operate in quite a tight zone, really, where they can operate.

1:14:39So the job is becoming really crystal clear on what's kind of right. And one of the questions as to what's right is what's going to govern this brand long-term? What is going to power the brand today but going to set us up for growth in the future, not simply get the fire started now so we have to change it wholesale a bit down the line, if that makes sense? so I think kind of strategy has to be kind of set and kept that's the power of it and it brings another dimension to the job of creating strategy which is what's going to be just as true for this small audience as it is going to be for a much bigger audience yes, because we're singing from the same hymn sheet maybe in different tones but this is essentially what Seth was saying is just because you succeed when it's small doesn't mean you'll succeed when it's big just because you succeed when it's new doesn't mean you'll succeed when it's old and he says you know the adoption curve that bell curve has this thing called the casim or chasm it's like brands have to, some brands make it and then they spread to the mass market brand, some don't and they fall down well actually the nuance is that you don't have to always but let's just say for the argument say you are trying to be with your thing there mate, the strategy should be the same today as we move along this adoption and go, it doesn't really, shouldn't really have to change.

1:15:54Yep. What are the challenges then that you see coming along that? Well, I think what the brand stands for and stands to achieve should be written in such terms that it sounds like a big, grand vision for the brand. You know, something, you know, a behavior it wants to see across the whole country. You know, we want to see everyone in the UK being obsessed. That's an inherently scalable mission. So I think it needs that scale to it. And I think a sentence like that can sit across that adoption curve slide that you're kind of mentioning. I think what happens is there's some tactics available to new brands that are exclusively available to new brands that are incredibly powerful and maybe some brands get caught up in fueling those fires that they don't think about the big picture.

1:16:43So some of that small stuff is, God, it's amazing. We've got a small community who actually want to ideate and tell us what the next product should be. They want to vote on the name of our flavor. You know, this is stuff that big brands don't have access to. You know what I mean? Like if a big kind of Pepsi brand comes out and says, what should we name this? You're going to get a lot of Bodie McBoat faces. When a small brand does it, you get like thousands of people thinking very, very diligently about it because they have that sense of ownership and passion. And that's the kind of benefit of early adopters.

1:17:12But, you know, as you get slightly larger and the way you cross that chasm, Mind you, that framework is used mainly for tech where there's a little bit more skepticism, but maybe the kind of spirit holds true a bit more broadly. If you want to cross that chasm, you have to recognize that there's an early mainstream who basically look back and kind of go, is this product legit? Have enough people used it? Like, have I got some trust in it through the crowd? And so it means that some of those kind of things that created lots of excitement just aren't going to excite that group. Like, hey, come buy the brand that are, you know, and you'll have a chance to kind of tell us what the product should be named.

1:17:45that's not really going to get a mainstream audience. What a mainstream audience is going to look for is like, oh, my God, like a few thousand people love this brand. And so I suppose what I'm advocating for is do you have something you can write across the top of that chart that you're like, it's going to be true now when we're serving 10 people, but also when we get up to that kind of 80 % critical mass, it's going to be just as relevant. So interesting. And also, but I think the other part of this, which, again, I've never really explored is the brand sometimes, you can do as much to control the brand, but the brand actually does live within the consumer's as well.

1:18:18How do you think about that? Well, it's worth just kind of chatting a little bit more about that. A brand could be positioned to absolutely swim with early adopters, and it probably would be a brand strategy. Let me kind of improvise here and leave some of the rules I said were important on the thing, but this is going to be the world's first co-created prebiotic soda. We're not going to make a move with our community, you vote on everything. That might be a really interesting kind of contagious idea that kind of catches on amongst a really small crew. And then it'll scale and you get past those kind of early adopter audiences and you kind of go, great, we're humming.

1:18:57Like the flywheels, people interacting, people are saying the product's getting great feedback. They're all hyped. They're super engaged. Look at our engagement numbers versus everyone else. And then you turn to that kind of early mainstream audience and say, come join in. This is the most collaborative thing. that early mainstream audience wants something very, very different from that group. And in the same way, you wouldn't be able to find an early adopter audience by kind of going, this is the nation's favorite prebiotic, you know, soda. We've done a taste test. No one doesn't like that. It's not going to excite an audience.

1:19:28You know, so there is a push and pull on what they ask from brands, and that's why you need that far bigger mission. So it allows you to kind of go, look, we're on a mission here to make the world being obsessed. What's the difference between mission, strategy, and vision? Look, mission and vision, I think you can use kind of interchangeably. And I think strategy is asking what that mission and vision is there to do. You know, the strategy kind of says the mission and vision is there to kind of create a brand that people really desire. So strategy is like the genre and the mission and vision is maybe the kind of nature of the kind of expression.

1:19:56Okay, with you. Fascinating. So Seth detailed the Tony's Chocoloney example when he said, like, in that early adopter stage, and I'd love to get your take on what their strategy is on this, but is people, you know, 10, because that brand's been going around. It feels like it's six years here, which it is essentially, but it's been going for 20 years.

1:20:19And, you know, those early diehard fans, they're going to a dinner party and they're saying, oh my God, have you seen the situation with what's going on in the cocoa industry, this chocolate brand's saving it. Look at the bar, it's got this jagged edges and it shows the inequality in the supply chain. And Seth says we buy things for three reasons. It gives us status, elevates our position, gives us affiliation, connection to people, or a freedom of fear. We don't want to be the one out, essentially. So in the early days, you're getting high status from like, oh my God, I've got this chocolate bar.

1:20:58You're sort of telling a story and you're getting connection to like those people who are trying to save the world. But then he goes, let's be realistic now. If you're in America and it's Halloween or it's, you know, you're giving out candies, whatever, is it's like, basically, they're like, oh, my little kid, you know, Dolly doesn't want to rock up. The new in-brand sweets is Tony's Chocolonely, Chocolonely, whatever. We don't want to give their kids Nestle. So it's actually this, the story's changed from like, oh my God, like kind of purpose, as you would say, to like fear of missing out. Do you know what I mean?

1:21:33And would you say the brand strategy can encompass both those stories? I think it has to. Yeah, I think it has to. You know, I think you need something to kind of recognize that to get a brand off the ground, it's very, very powerful to have that early group of people who feel disproportionately invested. For whatever reason, the mission clicks, the product clicks, you know, the problem that you solve is just more present in their life than it is with others. It just grabs that small crew in that community and kind of go like, has that crew that's going to ride with it from day one. That's massively important.

1:22:03But as you get bigger, just by the kind of the laws of marketing that we were just talking about, the more people you add will become less kind of connected or kind of rusted onto the brand. And so the whole brand story can't be around a very, very deep connection. Deep connection and purpose, yes, but not deep. Like I need you to contribute every day. I need you to do this for us every day. We want like a very one-to-one connection in the way that kind of early partners of a brand really do want. Interesting. Yeah, because, I mean, Grenade had a similar situation where their brands, Al was saying to me, you know, Grenade, the protein bars.

1:22:40He was saying to me that they started out as like a, and this is probably tactics, so he's wanting to create, say their strategy was create really delicious low sugar protein bars. That could be their like big sentence. The actual tactic of that on the ground as you become big is they did their whole thing of driving the tank into the NEC. They had the grenade fat loss pills. I took them before I napped her. Those jokes didn't really work, but fuck it. But their bars initially were like this kind of dark green. And Al was saying, he was at a trade show, and someone said, oh, we love your product, but it's not really for us because it's for people in the army.

1:23:28And then they went into retail and he was like, right, and now obviously their bars are like so kind of, and it's just opened up that market but also opened, made them stand out in retail. Yeah. It's wild. I think that's a brand that, again, I think of them through that lens of tension, right, which is like, it's not a ginormous world tension, but there is a really big truth, which is like, if you're kind of health conscious, It's like chocolate's off the table for you. If you're like a protein-obsessed, macro-watching, you know, calorie-counting, just gym-involved person. Gym bro, yeah. Yeah, like, you know, it's completely off the table for you.

1:24:06And like, what a friction, because we all say, oh, maybe I'll get that lint 99 % cocoa. Like, there is just a genuine friction there in people's kind of lives. And you're like, no, no, like here is a peanut butter, chocolate cookie bar that tastes 80 % as good as the competitor, but like actually is just full of protein, not kind of sugar and fat, like that's a really kind of like powerful kind of tension that they've kind of gone and solved. Now, if you kind of had that, you might kind of go, well, what are all the ways we're going to mine that? You know, what kind of ways can we make that problem and the fact that we solve it really famous?

1:24:38Do we have the right kind of design identity that signals that that's a problem that we solve? Like all that stuff, I think kind of starts to become a bit simpler if you have that clarity of kind of tension. And like, I get the sense that brand wouldn't exist without a founding team that really understood that kind of problem in people's lives. Well, that's what he said is he goes, for a long time I'd marketed, because he was, again, about knowing your category, knowing your consumer. His whole thing, the whole interview was, I am the consumer. Yeah. And it's like in the sense that he was a wholesaler.

1:25:10Yeah. It's like we're getting all these amazing branded products that taste shit. Yeah. And then all these tasty products that are marketed. Amazing. Branded stuff. It's interesting. Like everyone, that just friction is such a powerful place to kind of grow a brand. And then, you know, they sell for crazy numbers. And it's like, okay, right, that's kind of the proof of it. What are some of your other sort of contrarian views on marketing versus other CMOs, et cetera, strategists? You know, look, I think there is this kind of desire to like almost let kind of brands retreat a little bit, you know, like, oh, okay, we've just got to focus on, have we got our set of colors?

1:25:49Have we got our kind of marketing assets? I'm much like, I think that one of the biggest challenge brands have is the kind of modern media landscape and all the ways that you need to connect with people. You are doing in-person events. You are doing kind of, you are trying to populate an Instagram feed every day. You're trying to do a thoughtful kind of sub stack. You know, you're trying to do a really entertaining TV ad. And I think kind of actually the explosion of touch points that brands need to offer mean that they do really need this very clear sense of like what role they play in the world so they can have a far sharper filter.

1:26:21Because when something happens, like the LimeBike, you know, the kind of tube strike and, you know, LimeBike kind of, you know, event that kind of happened, like you don't want to be standing still there and kind of going, what should we comment on this? Is this of interest to us? Is this something that's kind of like meets our world? Like I think brands with a really clear kind of sense of who they are and what they stand for have a really simple interface with the world. That means when something happens, they kind of go, this is not really for us that's not something that we need to talk about or they go no we've absolutely got to run towards this this is massively kind of interesting for us mate it's one other thing i'm picking up from you mate is the importance of brand strategy is actually decision making uh heuristic or like yeah it basically allows you to say no rapidly fast whereas i think you if you don't have that lucid polished clarity in your brand strategy you can end up going around asking a lot of questions or trying to answer a lot of questions.

1:27:14We call our framework here the brand OS, brand operating system. Because it's exactly that. And it probably expands on some of these kind of principles that we've been talking about, but it's effectively built around five inquiries which aren't particularly radical, but they are focused. You know, we've left a lot on the table and said, like, these for us are the five things that really matter. So there are four kind of inside territories that then culminate in like a kind of central kind of thought. So when you say inside territories. Inside territories. So let me kind of speak you through the kind of like the kind of quadrants that we ask brands to be really, really clear on, you know, because having worked with really great brands and frankly, some not so great brands in the past, the brands that really seem to cut through and succeed are very clear on five dimensions.

1:27:56Cool. The first one is who they're for. You know, there's a lot of debate around the role of audience. I think sometimes people like a persona, you know, it's like, oh, we serve, you know, John, the, you know, the chocolate bar loving gym rat. Some people kind of go, actually, well, we're trying to sell to everyone. You know, our audience is the world. What we like to focus on as a community, what is that kind of group and that group is kind of connected by a set of values that you're going to serve? Because, you know, if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go with someone.

1:28:26So the brand really should be responsible or answerable to something bigger than itself. And so having a really clear set of what community the brand serves is the first thing we ask. And so when you say that's more psychographic versus demographic? I think a community can kind of exist in lots of different ways, but it's effectively a group of people who are bound either geographically, ideologically, or digitally in some sort of way. But the really important thing is that they do exist. I think so often when trying to come up with an audience, particularly the Sava brand, is to kind of write a person or a community or a crew that you wish existed.

1:29:03You know, we're after people who wish they could spend more on tin coffee every day. It's like, that would be fantastic for a coffee brand, but they probably don't exist. So you actually have to start by kind of going, like, let's find a crew that really, really exists. But when you have that, it means that the brand is answerable to something bigger than itself, you know, and it's really, really powerful. Cool. Who's this for? Yeah. The second thing we ask the brand to look at is its foundations. You know, back to that point before, like a brand's origin story is so powerful. It really grounds the mission.

1:29:34It means even as we get big and we start doing lots of different stuff, there's a clear sense of what we were trying to achieve that's rooted and kind of central to the way we see ourselves. So it means that as brands do hundreds of things when they just used to do one thing, it can always come back and say to itself, like, right, why did we start? And are we still on that mission? and that just gives the brand some coherency, some cohesion in a really, really important way. The next thing we ask for is field. And the field is to kind of go that actually most powerful brands tend to have a guilty conscience.

1:30:06They kind of look at the conventions of their category and they kind of ask themselves, what things are important here and what are we prepared to break? And that's a really interesting kind of question, right? Like if you're launching a new brand, there's sometimes that people kind of go, these things are sacred. We absolutely must be in this store. Our packaging absolutely must be glass or in this kind of format. We absolutely must have a playful tone of voice because we can't be too serious in this category. Now, some of those are true, but you really need to kind of list all the conventions of a category and then ask yourself, well, which of these ones are we prepared to break?

1:30:39Like every brand I know that's been incredibly successful is aware of what conventions of this category it's willing to break. It doesn't break all of them, but it does have the ones that is completely prepared to rip the raw book up. And usually they're kind of seen as sacrosanct until that moment and everyone kind of goes, God, why do we see stuff that way? Is there any examples on that? Yeah, I think you can kind of think of lots of things. I think you can think of Bold Bean's packaging and then you can think about their tone of voice and the fact they're called Bold Bean in the premium thing and the kind of colourfulness and the kind of vibrancy of a brand operating in a premium space.

1:31:09We don't tend to think of that. I think of kind of Monzo launching with their Coral card. You know, anyone could have done that. That's kind of... Coral card. As in the pink colored cards. And the idea that actually their kind of most important marketing moment when they were starting out is when that coral card goes down on a sea of kind of black and blue cards. I suppose the downstream of that is entering the conversation, entering the culture. Well, it's incredibly talkable, incredibly famous. But, you know, that was available to anyone. Any other like darling examples? Well, I think the reason why that example is so interesting, imagine if you're starting a bank and you kind of go, guys, people are going to trust us with their salary, their money.

1:31:46we must be taken seriously. But the idea that they kind of had the bravery to kind of go, yeah, but that doesn't mean colors off the table. It doesn't mean we'd be black and blue. Like, you know, we absolutely need to cultivate trust, but we're going to pilot this space. To me, it's kind of so interesting. You know, I think lots of other brands kind of play in that kind of space. I mean, the last kind of one, and we can kind of come back and dive into any of these, is VIX, you know, back to that point before. What is going on in the world and particularly in your consumers' lives? Where is that tension that the brand might be able to kind of operate and resolve?

1:32:16And with those four inquiries, we kind of land on that kind of purpose statement that we were talking about before. We call it a fire because we kind of believe that that statement should have energy to it. So that's why we kind of call it a fire. So those four elements kind of focus a brand's kind of purpose. If you can kind of get that stuff right, then that's a very, very clear sense of what the brand's about. So who's this for? Who's this for? Yeah, next one. What's the brand's foundations? Why did it start? What's its origin story? Field, like what rules in this category are we prepared to break that everyone else is going to treat as sacrosanct?

1:32:48And then what's the tension that we kind of are aware of and seek to solve in what we do? What's your sort of diagnosis of Guinness's proliferation success? You know, I think they've done some kind of things kind of absolutely kind of brilliantly. One, I think they've kind of really maybe kind of done a lot of thinking about who the audience can be. You know, I think one of the kind of really impressive things about that is how they've kind of gone from a choice of some to the mainstream thing that everyone kind of needs. And I think the kind of, the way they kind of start to conceptualize that brand is this kind of communal kind of thing and not just a niche product.

1:33:24It's super, super interesting. You know, I think the fact that they embrace their difference, you know, the kind of fact that they have always been really comfortable kind of going, we're not going to hide the fact that it's kind of a pain in the ass to do, takes a little bit more time. It looks a bit different. It feels a bit heavier. They're going to be the things that we make kind of super interesting. and the idea that they've now kind of taken all those things and pointed them towards the way of refreshment and started going, yeah, yeah, all those things, but they're refreshing. Like that has that kind of surprising logic to it that has that kind of like that guilty mind that I was talking about in field, you know.

1:33:58Like we're going to look at the kind of category. When you say guilty mind in field. Guilty mind is by kind of going, okay, what are the conventions of this category? Yeah. And what are we going to break with? Like what are the rules that everyone else here feels like they're absolutely constrained by that we're going to play with? You know, the idea that stouts can be for summer, like that's just like insane like the lagers must have been like oh my god this was our space like we have the sunshine thing like the fact that they're doing that incredibly well so you know look it's not a brand I've studied or been close to but I think they kind of shift into kind of becoming a nation drink and kind of being like this kind of universal kind of drink is kind of really really powerful and like a statement about the kind of country at large is super interesting and I think the fact that they have kind of started to kind of break with the rules of the category and start to kind of go yeah yeah, we're heavy, yeah, we take some time, but that's actually a good thing and it's not something we're going to hide away from.

1:34:46It's really powerful. I love this, like, what's the category of code and how do we break it? Because I think this will help a lot of people, they can literally write a list of the norms. A hundred percent. And I think one of the things I read is, well, as Rory talks about this a lot, but it's like turning bugs into features. The slower serve is actually, there's more care, there's actually an experience around it. But then I read somewhere that they either done something with these sort of brand quake situations where they do this big one or two things or big levers or big tactics that have this kind of massive explosion.

1:35:19But they did something with Kim Kardashian. I read that somewhere. And they also sponsored, like I think it was like, they did like, I think it was either, it might have been like a lingerie brand or something like that in the States. And they sponsored like this kind of event, but it was all the influencers were going there. They were serving like actual Guinness, but also Guinness cookies and stuff. and then that's just opened up their whole, well, just a whole delta of potential customers. It's a mad story. Isn't there a thing with them as well? And, you know, like some people who can speak so much better about like Guinness over the last kind of five, ten years and what they've done so perfectly.

1:35:59Split the G's another thing. Yeah, like wherever that magic kind of came from. But like I think the most interesting thing is, and I don't know the story well enough, but when they basically sacrificed a few other beers that they had in their arsenal and said, no, we're going to go all in on Guinness. Oh, really? And this was like decades ago now. It's that conviction piece, isn't it? Yeah. And I actually think that's where it started. Like it's kind of got that burn the boats thing, which is like, no, we're going to go all in and this has to work. And, you know, I think the way Rory and so many others talk about like the story of Guinness and its rituals and how that kind of just chimes with the brain in really pleasant ways and gets talked about, like all that stuff is super right.

1:36:38But I actually love the fact that like that organization many, many years ago had to make a bet and said like, we can't be supporting. I forget their other beer that they were running at the time. It's like, we have to go all in on one. And then that was kind of, for me, such a pivotal moment. You know, I think so much of the success is probably drafting on the fact that like, no, no, this is our commitment. We're going to make this work. Yes. I suppose that breaks the category codes of other brewers, which is like, let's have lots of different products. Let's have a beer for every occasion. Yes.

1:37:06You know what I mean? like, oh, okay, we've got this fantastic stout, does really well at Christmas time in the cold pubs, but we need to innovate a brand new product for summer. Like no one's going to want our, you know, the idea that this beer is, you know, having to kind of become more and more universal. And in doing so, like, yeah, you are right. There's kind of like a break of the category conventions. Like I think that's downstream that decision to kind of go, no, we are all in on Guinness. Yeah, having the courage of your convictions. What's the most sort of courageous or hard decision you've made with any of your clients?

1:37:35um look you know i i think there's this kind of like off quoted thing which is like strategy really is the art of sacrifice you know strategy is the art of sacrifice yeah fuck that's great yeah it's like well what are the things you're going to leave behind you know what are you going to like leave on the table um and i think the journey that we go on with our clients is is always kind of challenging in that respect because you get in your when you're having these kind of conversations, you find yourself in a moment, you're kind of authoring the new chapter of a brand, you recognize some decisions are going to have to be made.

1:38:09But then you fast forward to the conversation, you're kind of going like, oh my goodness, we're going to leave that on the table. We're going to kind of forgo a whole nother beer. We're going to take one beer to every need state in this kind of category when our biggest competitors are kind of innovating a new product for every micro moment and micro consumer trend. Like those decisions become incredibly hard and incredibly weighty. But I think the thing I love about brand strategy is as you push through that awkwardness, you do get to a stage where stuff feels like it clicks and there is just an inherent clarity and logic.

1:38:44You get to the stage where there is no discomfort in the outcome because yes, there's been some hard decisions along the way, but there's a brilliant logic with kind of absolute clarity and conviction kind of sitting at the heart of the conversation. So I think the process is always challenging. there's always something that you're like oh my goodness are we really going to do that like of course we say we have to sacrifice stuff but surely not that you know surely no one meant you know it applied to a situation like this but you get to the other side of it and there's something incredibly liberating because it's something kind of brilliantly clear and simple in your kind of brand strategy that you exit with yeah there's a there's a Kanye West song which I don't know what it's called but I think he's I've written about this in my newsletter which is like everything I'm not made me everything I am that's things that once you sacrifice yeah kill the boats or burn the boats, you suddenly have this, this is what this is.

1:39:30Interesting. What else do people get wrong about brand strategy, in your opinion? I think it's also worth talking a bit about how it's a massively creative task in a way. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that actually the role of brand strategy is to have often the most audacious dream for a brand, particularly at early stages and particularly if you're rehabilitating a brand. Actually, brand strategy and that whole process is energized by this kind of audacious kind of brief. When you're a startup and you're kind of looking out into the world and kind of going, oh my God, wouldn't it be amazing if our brand could be that?

1:40:06That audacity and that creativity and that kind of sense of like, yeah, I could imagine a world where people operate in the way that we're kind of talking about. There's something massively creative and inventive in that. And as a consequence, there's a lot of kind of rigor in brand strategy. Have we ticked all those boxes I've talked about? Do we have a clarity on our audience, clarity on our category, clarity on our story yeah for sure for sure but actually we still need the magic of kind of um creativity in there like having a crazy dream for the brand but so that so that's interesting so there's the crazy dream but then there's also because what we said at the beginning about you know what you're saying almost about purpose becoming superfluous in the sense of like these crazy we don't need actually smaller dreams do you know where's the tension there audacious and small well i think kind of like amelia's kind of vision to have a nation and you know increasingly a world that becomes being obsessed.

1:40:56That's pretty crazy. Like, that is a crazy thing for a person and a small kind of founding team, ultimately, to put on a piece of paper and say, that's what we're all about. Yeah. But it's not like, it's not fantasy land. We're going to solve. It's incredibly audacious when you think about the category it's played. I think there's just been this chapter where people have just overreached to the point of stuff being unclear. But there is a kind of like a holy shit moment around that, which is like, are we serious about that? Like, are we really going to put that on a piece of paper and say that's what we're about?

1:41:26Because that's going to feel pretty crazy in some of our dark days that kind of come in those kind of early months and years of a startup. Like, oh my God, we're here to create a world that's been obsessed and I'm kind of worried about X, Y, or Z. Or I'm here to kind of invent a brand new chocolate brand and yet I'm worried about payroll. Like, you know, I do think there is audacity in that. But, you know, what I think, the reason why I've always loved brand strategies, it's not easily solvable by an algorithm or equation. you know you can't just kind of go if this is your audience and this is your category then this is your kind of brand strategy there's an art to it and that art really um takes creativity and so i guess the reason why i kind of bring that up is i would hate people to kind of like hear this and kind of go great i've got myself my framework now i need to just work through this kind of framework and yeah no that's why i'm yeah that's why that's the that's why i like to go long for conversations because you can get into the nuance yeah and so is there any examples where you've done that framework and then you've the creative magical genius because i think that framework creates the the rich delta for magic to blossom but doesn't mean you you've got to still nurture the land 100 you know toil away yeah what any examples where that's you've done that process and then how have you brought it to life well you know can be in other categories yeah yeah well let's go circle back to the ordinary which we had kind of done this work on kind of capturing the lightning in a bottle that is The Ordinary.

1:42:48The lightning in the bottle. Yeah, well, I just think The Ordinary is such an incredible brand, has an amazing kind of story around its founding. It's a remarkable, remarkable brand. But, you know, it was scaling really, really quickly. It needed to get absolutely clear on what that lightning in a bottle was before it became diluted. You know, sometimes these brands kind of have such a strong intuitive sense of themselves, and this is not quite The Ordinary, but you can imagine brands in certain situations that have a bit of a sense of themselves, but don't necessarily kind of advocate so clearly.

1:43:20So they kind of came to us to kind of help bring that clarity and start making it, manifesting it in kind of culture. And so I think some of the stuff that we've done with The Ordinary being super interesting, you know, we hired a retail space in the center of Soho in New York, created this kind of ginormous money pile kind of about the size of this room to kind of represent how much extra money we would have to charge consumers if we had a celebrity endorsement. And I think in terms of kind of going like, there's a reason why this brand is so much cheaper than anyone else and it's got nothing to do with efficacy.

1:43:49It's got everything to do with the marketing strategy. It's just an example of how we're slowly finding really remarkable ways to tell that story to a wider audience. That's sick. The money is kind of the example. And then another thing we've done with those guys is use the kind of campaign budget to actually buy a set of academic articles which we've then put on a website so people can kind of see actually some of the kind of mistruths that are being sold by the kind of industry at large. So here are the kind of white papers and the academic papers that prove some of the points that kind of counteract some of the biggest of the category.

1:44:28And you start to kind of see how this brand, without the biggest budgets compared to its competitors, is starting to kind of find ways to kind of live its kind of purpose of being a brand that puts primacy on ingredients in a category that's kind of got so much kind of fluff. Mate, so interesting. so once you've got the strategy done the creative done on that top of the stream where does the sort of how do you look at it through a marketing lens and i know that's like not necessarily your wheelhouse specifically but then i feel like people get confused with marketing as it's like is it social media like how is it is it in store right you look at it through different channels yeah yeah yeah 100 so and i'll try and use different terminology because some some of the words that relate to that task have been used in this conversation, but they mean very, very different things.

1:45:16You then have to kind of look at the resources different to what we were talking about before of that marketing team. You know, I'm still a really big fan of like some level of kind of planning. It could be annual planning. It could be quarterly planning. It could be half yearly planning. It could be five year planning, but actually sitting down and kind of saying, well, what resources does the brand and marketing function have for the next thing? And then And the framework that I'm a really big fan of is the jobs to be done framework. Jobs to be done. Jobs to be done. So as we look over that time period that we're working within, what tasks need to be achieved for this brand to achieve its business goals?

1:45:51Again, asterisks, I'm working on an assumption that business has kind of relatively clear goals, but I feel most businesses are pretty good at setting goals for themselves. Goals linked to strategy. Yeah, a goal in terms of revenue or something like that. So you might say, we want to grow 33 % in the next 12 months. and we know that the brand's kind of ethos and mission is this, but we also know through that where we, you know, what makes us different in the category, what audience we're pursuing, et cetera, et cetera. And so what jobs need to be done? We might need to raise awareness. We might need to kind of solve a bit of a product barrier that people have, which is people really love the brand, but they're not particularly interested in buying a product like this for X, Y, Z reason.

1:46:26People might love the brand, really want to buy it, but aren't buying it because actually the product is invisible at shelf or it's not distributed in the right places or it's a bit too expensive. you know, you start to kind of get to a series of jobs to be done. And again, my kind of whole practice is really centered on this idea of like focus, sacrifice, having the hard kind of conversations. Can you as an organization get down to two or three jobs to be done for the year ahead? And when we're working on multi-million dollar brands, when we look at their annual plans, they tend to have three or four jobs to be done in the course of a year.

1:46:56And a job to be done is that that framework is super important because once we get those three, two, three, four jobs to be done over the course of it, we say to ourselves, any pound that can't be tracked back to one of these jobs to be done or any minute of kind of human endeavor that can't be tracked to it was kind of wasted. There's a hundred things that this brand could do and a hundred things that it probably wants to do and would be cool to do. Unless we can kind of say why this sponsorship or why this activation or why this campaign or why this in-store activity ties back to one of these jobs to be done, it would be effectively wasted because we've had the hard conversation about what really matters to the brand.

1:47:33Yeah, it's okay. It's interesting. So he's got the strategy, well, framework, strategy, creative, this marketing, jobs to be done. Jobs to be done. And then from there? And the thing about putting jobs to be done at the top of your marketing page is it saves you putting other things at the top of the page, which are often channels. Oh, and marketing starts kind of... Again, I'm not... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because a lot of people like... No, no, of course. So marketers might perceive their job as kind of filling certain channels. We have an in-store fixture that we need to be in. What could be the, what are the channels?

1:48:04Social, out of home, Instagram, YouTube content, TV, if you're kind of so lucky, posters, you know, experiential activity, a festival sponsorship, you know, hundreds of things. And do you think sometimes marketing managers feel like they've got to put something in each one? I think sometimes when you think of this kind of waterfall of coming up with it, like let's say the brand strategy is clear. This brand is super clear on what it stands for. it's done the hard work, it's got its kind of mission, it doesn't overreach, but it really energizes the organization, it's really powerful in the lives of consumers.

1:48:38Then the conversation starts to sound a little bit like, around this time actually, what's the marketing plan for next year? You know, we're trying to grow this business 33%, what's the marketing plan for this year? And sometimes a plan can start off by kind of going, well, in content, we're going to do this, in social, we're going to do this, in our kind of, you know, email, we're going to do this, and we're going to take all our money and out of home we're going to do this. And so what marketing kind of is imagining itself in that context is a job that's just there to fill in boxes. You know, we've got to, we're responsible for filling in the social feed.

1:49:13We're responsible for filling in the YouTube content. I'd flip it another way, which is actually what are the needles that need to move over the next 12 months that we really, really care about? Is it a brand health issue? Not enough people know about us or people think we're too expensive or people don't know how to use us. Is it a, you know, more of a consideration issue, which is love you, but I don't know how to use you. I don't know when I would use you. You know, I've heard about the product a lot, but I don't know if it's a morning thing, a dessert thing. I don't know. Or is it a bit downstream?

1:49:40Like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I keep meaning to buy you, but I never think about you when I'm in the store. Or you were just slightly more expensive than this brand that's always on promotion. Or I didn't even realize you were on that supermarket. I can never find you. Or I do my shop at Tesco and you're only available. Or, you know, you can start to kind of imagine some of the problems that a brand has. It has to kind of ask itself a tough question of like, hey, there's only this team. There's only this much budget. Which of these really matter to us? Because we're probably not going to be able to achieve them all if we have hundreds.

1:50:09We probably need to get down to that set of two or three. And then when you get there, you can start to kind of go, okay, cool. Now let's bring in a conversation about some of those resources, the channels that we have, the money that we have, and start putting them against each bucket. Because different channels do different jobs. That's the kind of amazing thing about it. So, you know, the way you use social can, you know, it's probably better at certain things than it is other things. So I think just kind of starting with jobs to be done and really kind of going, what are the kind of big pressing problems?

1:50:34And that's when you can do stuff that is linking this back to Bowl Beans. I remember Amelia saying, loads of people said to her, it's like, don't launch a cookbook. You can start linking that back to the contrarian things. Everyone's like, oh, you know, brand aside, fucking, there's a lot of wanky terminology, brand aside. But like, you know, and actually that is a really important bucket for her because that... Yeah, but let's talk about how that would look in this framework. It wouldn't start by kind of saying, we need to do a cookbook this year, so that's one of the things on the marketing plan.

1:51:02It would start by saying, we need to kind of actually establish our foodie credentials. That's what's going to set us apart in this country. We're competing with some brands that have kind of amazing European origin stories. We're competing with some cheaper things that are lower quality. It's foodie credentials that are going to do it. So job to be done, number one, is establish our foodie credentials. What other jobs to be done? Well, they might have had another job to be done of kind of grow awareness of the brand. we need more people to hear about us. And they might have had another thing, which is to kind of get more people buying it, you know.

1:51:30That would feel like kind of a solid kind of shape of a marketing plan for the last couple of years for kind of Bold Bean. And then underneath that, you can start being really innovative with tactics. Okay, how do we have foodie credentials? We can have a post that says, we love food, costs tons of money, it's up for a couple of weeks. So uncreative, it's not really gonna do it. Or we could start a cookbook and actually have a cookbook that's kind of so unique that it opens up this whole new kind of conversation. food podcasts want to talk to us food festivals want to talk to us we can start sharing the content online and start kind of showing hey we have a point of view on how you can the creative potential of this kind of product you know that was a really creative solve to the job to be done that they had which is to create foodie credentials one thing i asked al barrett from grenade is you know like in the gym like you've got compound exercises so your bench press your head lift your shoulder press just the big fuckers that move the needle and then you've got the superfluous exercise that people think are important like i don't know like i don't know like i don't know you've seen them in the gym it's like people's got a band that they've sort of connected to their yeah and it's kind of like they're spending it and it's just superfluous yep doesn't move the needle what would you say the big compound things that move the needle yep for brands yep and then what are things that you think most marketers get wrong which is is basically you know doing doing jumping on a bosu ball or whatever um yeah so look i i think some of the fundamentals are recognize the value of kind of meaning, first and foremost.

1:52:54Can you argue what role this brand serves in modern life and in your consumer's life? Wrestling with that job of why the fuck this brand exists is a really tough question for brands to answer. And hopefully I've made the kind of case today that we need not overreach for that, but actually really grounded in that. So one would be meaning, the second would be fame. It's like, how the hell are we going to get people to talk and remark upon this brand? And that might be by kind of jumping into kind of areas where there's immediately heat, either a kind of conversation topic or some of those kind of areas we've talked about, like the dragon's dens of this world.

1:53:26But the brand that grow, do so because they're famed, people are talking about them. And then I think underneath all of that is just this kind of recognition that to get there, the brand's going to need to sacrifice and commit. It's going to have to leave a lot of stuff behind that maybe was kind of interesting and kind of recognize that what signing up for isn't a six or 12 months kind of thing. It's a kind of multi-year journey. Stephen King's got a great book called On Writing, it's kind of completely different category but talk about all about how you should write a great novel and he's got a thing called kill your babies so it's that piece of prose that you love and as in it's a piece of prose that you absolutely love you're like oh my god that's amazing but it's like does it add to the story cut it brilliant we're going to wrap this up in a sec what are some of the superfluous things that most marketers think are important but are just not look I think in the absence of having a really clear brand strategy or a clear jobs to be done framework, probably a lot of stuff.

1:54:21Because actually, you know, particularly if you're a senior marketer, if you're doing singular tactics without clarity on what they add up to, it's really hard no matter how good it is to say it's really, really useful. Because if you do something amazing day one that positions a brand in a certain way for a certain audience, and then the next thing you follow up with is talking about the brand in a completely different way for a completely different audience, those few things might be amazing. And you might sit here and go, fuck that was cool when they did that but actually unless they're kind of connected by this coherent strategy they all kind of become a bit useless so it's the kind of strategy and that kind of long-term commitment and clarity that gives anything kind of power interesting and then finally just some what are some real books that you've really changed the way you've seen the world yeah um good strategy bad strategy which is um a phenomenal book on not just marketing strategy but the kind of discipline of strategy it's where that kind of idea of like actually strategy being really rooted in sacrifice is based.

1:55:16You know, secondly, I really love the idea we're talking about where good ideas come from. You know, if we're going to sit with a blank sheet of paper and talk about inventing what the brand's about, it's really helpful to understand what some of the mechanics are about. And then lastly, you know, talking about the fact that like actually so much brand strategy is rooted in understanding the world. Like I find so much, I just like kind of journalism. You know, I'm such a massive fan of it, whether it's Financial Times, whether it's Puck, whether it's Atlantic Economist, you know, the stuff we're talking about that kind of goes, oh, right, okay, I can see why Grenade was successful.

1:55:48There is this real tension between, you know, Jimbro culture and a desire to kind of have some treats. Yeah, I kind of see that. I think that, you know, what you can kind of pick up from like articles and news and what journalists are creating is just so powerful. The final thing is because I just want to get just to wrap up this culture piece because I think it's, I think everything you said today is insane. I think the hardest thing for people to maybe grapple with, and I think, you know, some things, just because you've got a framework doesn't mean it's fucking easy. There's a real art to the culture piece and the tension piece.

1:56:21Is there any, like, questions that can maybe reveal tensions that people can ask themselves? you know i think often it's i think one of the mistakes people start new brands they just go and look at the supermarket shelf and they think they're gonna be able to find some cultural cultural cultural in there or they're gonna and then that's why you have the blandemic which is when every brand looks the fucking same like what is what's the art of that yeah so look you know to take one step back you know there's this kind of statistic that i'm always drawn to which is 75 of brands could disappear tomorrow and no one would care you know who came up with that um this kind of piece of research by a company called havas it's an amazing kind of thing which is like actually 75 of brands in the supermarket could disappear and no one would really care and there's another thing which is like we probably as a, as a, as a, as you know, in the West have reached peak stuff.

1:57:11You know, that's again, that's a quote from my kids, head of sustainability. Peak stuff. Peak stuff. Like we're not really looking at our lives and saying we're missing kind of something. So actually the white space is in new relationships for stuff. So I think we have to kind of first and foremost, kind of call that there is a crisis in brand building at the moment. There is, you know, the way we're approaching brand building isn't really, really working. We need to think a bit differently. The historical way of coming up with a brand was positioning. Okay, go look at that supermarket shelf that you're about to enter.

1:57:39What makes your brand slightly better? You've got less sugar, you've got more taste, you've got more flavor. Nowadays, in a world where 75 % of brands could disappear, and we probably don't need any more products, that's not really going to cut it. So actually, you have to look at the live of your consumer, that person who kind of creates a reason for this brand to exist and say, what in their life are we going to fix? What problem or kind of thing they're wrestling with that we're going to fix. And that might sound really audacious. And you're going to go, I'm just trying to make it super Ant-Man.

1:58:07Like what the hell? But I think if you really peer into the lives of people, like they're incredibly complex. People are kind of dealing with a whole mix of stuff. And I think just kind of sitting with kind of real people, you will find it. Like I think, look, the other thing is the best founders, I think are incredibly consumer centric. And I think for some people, this will just click. They'll just kind of go, yeah, of course. Like actually the whole reason why I created this product in the first place, not because I was inspired by the shelf, I was inspired by a person. Like Grenade didn't come out of looking at the chocolate bar aisle and kind of go, oh, I can think of something else.

1:58:39It came from sitting in the gym. And so, or kind of looking at kind of match and kind of go, I'd probably drink a lot more match if it wasn't so hard. Like, like most of the best brands are kind of invented at this moment of great empathy and great understanding. And so I'd kind of encourage people to look back to that moment. I think it's really unlikely that there's a lot of listeners who came up with their brand looking at a spreadsheet. Oh, that's a category that's growing. And I think I could do something in there. And I don't really care about the people that buy it, but I reckon I could make money there.

1:59:07I think it's an incredibly small percentage of entrepreneurs. I think most entrepreneurs are kind of living with something like, God, that's fucking annoying. I reckon other people see the world that way. And we kind of walk past that. And we kind of go, oh my God, now I need, what's that name? What's the logo going to look like? Where's it going to be stocked? It's like, actually, there's something hugely powerful in that initial moment. When you had that frustration that said, fuck, who's going to like, we need to solve this. Like there's something incredibly powerful in that moment. And I think that's the thing to kind of mine.

1:59:36And I think a lot of people have had that experience. Maybe we've just ignored it and not recognized just how powerful it can be. Because when you're kind of communicating with people, I'd so much rather have a conversation around what we're going to change in their life and the problem we're going to fix, then talk to them about how great the name is or how great the logo is. I think interesting is brands get, I think founders have that like that initially, but sometimes you get more investors on board or more kind of the process-driven stuff, they move away from that. 100%. And I think part of today, as much as all the goals you've laid down, mate, is just ultimately it's an inside job.

2:00:12Love that, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you, man. That was an absolute joy. Yeah, that was so sick, man. No, thank you. Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much