The Cornish Chef Who Revolutionised East London’s Food Scene - Tom Brown

0:00Tom, thank you so much for doing this mate. as I said um had absolutely wondrous meal the other week at the capital I mean some of the some of the dishes that you were slinging out it's just it's like just mad creativity Willy Wonka creativity on a plate I was like this is I sat with my mate Raz and I mean our relationship is like literally all about food right and we were just like how are you sort of coming up with these dishes and it was um it was it was so much fun thank you that's what I'd love to start with is your sort of your creative process yeah as i said i went to cornerstone and some of the dishes i was eating i'm like what is this it's like a slap around the face it's like a proper like wham like so much color on the plate as well like i really feel your dishes it's color so i think we should what i'd love to start with is almost like reverse engineering the process right okay so start with that crab custard bad boy because that was that was mad i was eating that i was like this is just crazy and then and then we can kind of swim wherever we need to swim um well i mean obviously like it's kind of a cliche but everyone always says like oh it's produce um right like everyone you have to start with produce because it's it's funny like i was in i ate um this restaurant called uh i can't remember how to pronounce it it's either head in a or head own right um it was in chiswick like years ago it was always tipped for two stars um but never quite got it as a one star and i spoke to the guy and it was like just as i moved to london right and i was like i said to him i thought it's been really clever i was like wow like your food so produce led and he was just like well where else could it be from like if you haven't got produce you've got nothing have you yeah yeah yeah and it really stuck for me because i was so embarrassed yeah but no like so you have to start with like a great product but then i think the way like we approach it is rather than sort of being um like looking at it in any other prism other than just like what is really nice like and what could everyone just love do you know what i mean so we wanted to do a dish that was kind of like a like a custardy kind of one but the one that everyone seems to do is chowemushi but oh fuck it chowemushi is like so it's like a baked kind of Japanese custard, but I just find it really kind of slimy sometimes.

2:18Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's eggs and like it's dashy and things like that. But I was like, do you know what? I want like that kind of almost like overset creme brulee sort of feel. When you ate it, do you know what I mean? It's like it wants to be a little bit firm. I think it's like that kind of creamy texture. So rather than going, let's do a chow mushy, we were like, let's just what do people really want? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That mouth feel like that. so and then from there it's just again it's like things that are just nice and in season so we had um it's with the the tomatoes like that's really tomatoes just with the the tea that we we just like try and extract as much flavor as possible because at the end of the day like i think one thing that i really kind of dislike with restaurants is when you're told why you should like it if that makes sense so you know like a waiter standing there and going so uh yeah so this is based on chef's experiences and blah blah blah and what we do is we spend forever to do this and it's like no like it should be it should be perfect if a waiter says nothing to you and you had your eyes closed that's that's what do you know what i mean that's what i think if you if you sat there and ate it without anyone telling you what it is you should eat it because you know human beings are a species with a palate and you know a tongue you've got everyone's got a tongue in their head and everyone's kind of tongue in their head yeah yeah exactly like everyone's taste buds are more or less the same to an extent like if you look across every culture in on on the earth there's things that people pick up on people like well i mean like it's across all cultures yeah exactly like there's things that your that your taste buds respond to that are good yeah yeah yeah it's things like why everyone has sweets at the end of the meal you know why dessert's always at the end it's like universal truth exactly yeah universal that's the word i was looking for but so so i think that there are things like that that people always pick up on whether you like you know whether you like beetroot or not something like that do you know what i mean it should be irrelevant if a chef can extract something that's good and make it i think that's the other thing is sometimes you can sit there and they give you a fucking lecture about this weird seaweed dish but what i noticed at the capitals is the surface is almost it's gentle and invisible that's what that was i sort of picked up it's yeah like something you know charlie the front of house absolute g like you just feel so warm and comfortable but then also it's kind of invisible and i love that feeling yeah i it's really nice to hear that you that you kind of picked up on that sort of warmth because that's i you know i don't i i don't have a obviously i'm a chef right so i'm in a kitchen so for me move these across because yeah good yeah so for me with with um um service like when i when i opened cornerstone right so that was my first obviously um venture where like i was in charge of like everything obviously i've been like a head chef before but with cornerstone i was like in charge of everything and overseeing sort of like the service side a bit more my thing was just like i want everyone to feel like they are coming into like my front room yes do you know what i mean so so warmth like warmth friendly not too much at the table but also like you shouldn't need to charlie actually is he's as we as we said he's amazing but he's got this like philosophy that if someone has to ask you for something they failed do you know what i mean like should be it should be for a sig there's like straight away yeah on the table all the napkins are done it's just so i that's what i think i think like service should be that it should be like just whatever you need like but without too much does that make sense yeah no completely and that's what i was saying before we hit record mate is when i went to cornerstone which was a couple of years ago and i said it was a crab um bun yeah i mean it's sensationally delicious but we do have pearly cream now actually oh yeah i probably had that the other week i can't remember it but the um but as i was saying they're you know blasting out the smiths like you know and it's just that that warm feeling what did you that i'm just so again kind of reverse engineering this i totally get that and i've experienced it and it sort of soaked into my bones and it was a delicious experience but what was the hardest bit about going from you know from a head chef in the kitchen to really understanding that other it's almost like backstage front stage with with the service yeah and the vibe of your restaurant well yeah i mean that was so with cornerstone like it was one thing that was really really important when when we started it was like that the you remember like the kitchen was right in the middle so we could see everything because that's the other thing everyone's going wheat like yeah yeah yeah so like like to be able to see everything like that was was really really important and i think that sort of like shaped how i am now as like a chef i mean you know i i'm in the kitchen obviously i cook and things but i think so much more of my focus now is on uh everything else but the food if that makes sense wow so like i like the old sorry like the older i've gotten the more i've i've done restaurants like i think um the food is like almost the last piece of the puzzle mate so bourdain when he did um uh uh marco pierre white and that's one of my favorite episodes and actually i interviewed a guy who's got a business called eat club the other week the other tuesday he'd marco pierre white's like the co-founder of it yeah yeah and we he's based but he was he was over and he was saying that marco pier white said everyone thinks it's food uh service setting it's actually setting service food that's what makes a great restaurant and i like honestly like 100 it's like you could go to um like there could be a restaurant down the road and like the lighting is beautiful they play great music the service is fantastic um but the food's like average and you would go there every week i would yeah yeah yeah but you could go to a restaurant where the food is 10 out of 10 but the there's the lights are bright and they're shining in your eyes and there's no music is stark and the the waiters are shit and you'd be like i don't care about the food do you know what i mean so to work yeah like you're saying reverse engineering i think that is so the way to look at it as that's what i'm finding more and more as a chef and obviously having multiple restaurants is that everything else needs to be right and then when you get the food that's what takes it from like a good restaurant to like exceptional what have been the hardest things about getting that right that you've picked up on um i mean subjectivity with with guests is like making that experience for everyone you know sometimes people want like people more at the table or they or they want like a quieter one or whatever it's it's kind of knowing what what people want and and getting the staff to to put that across do you know yeah that is that's like that's the challenge but obviously that's you know we love it that's why we yeah yeah one thing i wanted to um because i don't like believe your surroundings really impact your creativity like i really believe like your input so like what you're reading where you're listening what music listening to who you're speaking to your conversations will change your creative output yeah so like when you're down in cornwall with being around working for nathan by the sea and then you move to move to london sort of hackney i think i saw all those early sort of pictures on your Instagram of you know sort of the graffiti yeah but how did that sort of change as you when you made that move um well so moving from from Cornwall to London everyone always goes oh wow there must have been such a like a big change right but I was kind of eased into it because I was I was a head chef for Nathan you know doing like that was at the capital uh yeah so but before that I was in Cornwall as a head chef at um the St.

10:10Ender Dock hotel he hasn't got a restaurant there anymore but yeah but like so i was there and he said to me like do you want to go to the capital i was like well yeah obviously like because i'm you know i'm here and my like the great thing about slotting into that was like there was so many parallels from what i was already doing so like i was spending 14 hours a day doing basically the same as what i was doing in cornwall so my it was just my days off and things that were that were different so it was kind of eased into it in that way and I mean for me now like London is my home I feel like I'm you know that's more I'm more aligned with London than I am with Cornwall like when I go back and see the family and that it kind of feels like I'm visiting somewhere as opposed to going home yeah yeah why did why did um sink into that a bit more what what kind of um how did London sort of cuddle you and make you feel like this is this is home what was about it And I just, it's hard to sort of put it like to sort of say whether it's one thing or whatever, but I just feel like I love the city.

11:13I mean, like obviously it's not, you know, there's a lot going on in the world and this and that at the moment and things are, it's the hardest time ever, particularly for chefs and restaurateurs or whatever, anyone in hospitality. But for me, I just think this city is amazing and I just love it. I mean, I love the diversity. I love the buzz. I just love everything about it. And that's more than anything, I think it's why I gravitated towards East London. Right. When I moved here, I lived in Acton, and nothing against Acton. It was a sparkling place in the world. Yeah, it wasn't for me as much.

11:49So on days off and things, I'd be in Shoreditch or Hackney or even like Islington and things like that. so like I just really like aligned with those things and that's why I ended up in Hackney Wick with with Cornerstone do you know what I mean it wasn't some like business thing it wasn't like oh this is this is this is up and coming or this is like I was just like I just want to be here like if I'm going to be if I'm going to set up a restaurant and be somewhere I'm like I want it to be someone that I like do you know what I mean I looked at I remember looking at sites in like various places like south and like sort of like west like sort of further than acting because i was just looking at places i could afford the rent you know what i mean right yeah um and also for context like when you opened the restaurant 2018 you opened the restaurant like i think i listened to another podcast on this was ages ago um i think it was just simon was it simon rimmer yeah yeah and that was probably about four or five years ago yeah it was yeah and and back then it It was like, that was such a bold move opening in that part of London.

12:51Now, I suppose you were sort of the founding father of putting food on that area in London. Like, talk to me about the first sort of six months. How did you get it going? Because I feel, loads of chefs I speak to, it's that sort of first six months of getting the fucking off the ground. It's so hard. So you're doing that in a part of London which isn't notoriously known for great. No. I mean like honestly when people sort of say about that like starting it and that I feel like a bit of a I get this like imposter syndrome because I'm not I'm like my accountant will tell you I'm not like that's I'm not a fucking business guy I'm a chef right yeah yeah yeah and I maybe fluked it do you know what I mean like doing doing it there and making it work for as long as it did um I think we just we just did something nice and like oh nate said to me he was like look if you do if you do if you do something good like people will come like it was what's that it's that film isn't it where it's like if you build it yeah yeah it's a field of dreams isn't it yeah yeah yeah and he was like look if you do something good and you make it right and you just capture that the vibe and like the menu and and that people will come and like that's that's what it was it wasn't like a But, you know, it wasn't like a business-driven thing.

14:07It was just like, it was just about the restaurant, like the food, and like to make something that was really special. And like, you know, I hope we did that in the time we were there. Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. And then with, so then, ironically, not ironically, but interestingly, when you go across to, well, Mike's Bridge now with the capital, does the, how does this sort of the menu, do you just create the menu that you want to create? or do you think about the surrounding environments with your creative process? Yeah, I mean, the thing is with there is like, because it's such a small hotel and obviously with hotels, you have various different outlets in there.

14:48So with the capital being small, we look after everything. So we do breakfast, we do afternoon tea, we do room service. It's not like, you know, one of these sort of bigger hotels where you have the bar team and the banqueting team and whatever we we do it all so with the menu we really try and like focus on making that something that's like a destination do you know what i mean so yeah so yeah so we do have a lot of free reign sort of creatively we can kind of do they let you design like the inside of the restaurant do you get uh yeah no we so a lot of the what was done in the dining room was was already there in terms of decor right um we brought like with me i was like let's get some different chairs in there and whatever yeah yeah yeah um but no it's a it's a beautiful room anyway and it's it's it's very like it's iconic the capital like yeah yeah people that have been there you know like who else has been there like what oh well it's funny i was at the i was at the katie awards the other day and brian turner you remember brian turner the guy from like ready city cook and that is like old school guy he he got like a lifetime achievement award and like the capital got the got a name check they were like oh really yeah so he was like one of the first people to have a mission star in in the uk like in the 70s yeah yeah yeah and then after that there was um philip britain had a star there and eric travaux had two stars there and then with nath when i was obviously i was there before we had a star there and it's like so many people have worked through their likes we had tom akins in for lunch the other day when when we first opened and he came in the kitchen he was like oh my god like i remember this so well like you know this range and everything that we we still got like the same sort of setup and yeah yeah yeah um so it's just yeah it's one of those i mean like those london restaurants and and places that like have been there and like it's the test of time so yeah i'm just kind of when you said like you're having imposter syndrome with going to hackney or you know you're like i sort of fluked it how do you sort of use imposter syndrome as like almost fuel as you go and step in so you know the big shoes of the capital or something like that yeah i mean just just want to just want to do it well man just yeah like it's kind of it's it's one of them where you where you sort of look at it and go with yeah like big shoes to fill sort of thing and and and i really want to like make a mark there i want to make it something really special that people talk about and you know people look at our food and try and like take inspiration from it that's what I do I mean you know we're talking about creative process like I look at people all day you know I'm scrolling on my phone yeah so I was going to say where do you get your ideas from how are you do you go and like sort of like a fucking you know truffle pig yeah how do you make it your own like because you've got your own like I don't know for like some of the best restaurants they have their own identity their souls on the food their souls in the food this is what Ashley from well the fat duck like Ashley Palmer Watson saying, he's like, yeah, your soul has to be, yeah, he's such a lovely bloke as well, but he was saying like, your soul has to be in your food, or like your, just your fucking stamp on it, like how did you do that?

17:58That's what I'm trying to get you. Without kind of being too, you know, I don't want to sound like pretentious, or like wanky, yeah, but I do think any, anything creative, or any form of art, right, so I think, I think when, when food's great, it is, it's like, it's an art right it's a version of that yes it's like any creative thing whether it's art music food whatever it should be an extension of what you are as a person right yes but yes Marco said it once he was like that should when when someone walks into a restaurant that's special they should feel you do you know what I mean they should they should know what that is that honestly that probably sounds so like I think like when you when you see that in places like i remember going a great example of this is down in corner paul ainsworth who's like yeah i'm unbelievable chef like great great guy and when you go to number six like you've everything you see in the place everything like the food everything is just like you can feel his sort of touch and i think that that is something that i really hope comes across with it um yeah where they are but you know the other thing as well is like there's no like I don't mind saying that we look at other people's food and like draw inspiration from it it's like and that probably goes back a little bit to sort of work in an eighth when I opened Cornerstone a lot of people were like oh do you think like is it you know are you trying to like shake off the thing of having to work for him and I was like no why would I like I worked for a guy for six years like that's what I learned it's like someone going to a footballer like oh fucking hell do you want to stop like playing like messy do you know what i mean it's like no you want you want to like do that but then take it take it again so yeah when you're going back to like menu writing and creative process like i we do we see things that people do and then go oh don't you think that's cool and like oh what if we did this and like it's it's it's it's like a collaborative process with your team as well like with with developing stuff i kind of sort of give the guys an idea and then say like let's let's make this let's make something like this and then we you know develop it together um because they're the ones in the sections making it do you know what i mean so and it kind of it does this like snowball thing where it's like you know it evolves and it and it grows and it's the um so basically half the way this podcast got go was actually at numbers pulled at number six oh really so i went i was going through a bit of a like basically like a breakup and i basically went down to um i'm going down to cornwall on my own to do some walking and shit like that and i stayed at um the cornish arms one of those shepherd yeah yeah and i was like walking around i was like down there for two days i was like i don't give a shit i'm going on my ones to a mission style restaurant i might look like an absolute gimp but i don't care i love eating i wait honestly it's the best thing so good yeah and so i went in there i was a bit like nervous i was like oh my god and obviously they're like they called me like is this just for one person i was like yeah and yeah yeah okay i was like obviously i was just like applying back some pints and they put me right in front of the um it was actually unreal so they've got this little bit of the back so you can see into the kitchen yeah yeah yeah and they had like a i remember it's so vivid it was like make it happen make it happen together it was like a phrase on the wall and i really like that and then so the guy who was serving me comes up and i was like oh by the way i've got this this is four years ago now I was like, I've got this podcast.

21:31I would love to speak to Paul. And he was like, I don't know if that's going to happen. I was like, give me your details. And I just, do you know Jess Corrigan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess used to do the PR at Cornerstone when we first met. Oh, right. She's actually a massive part of why it made it. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, anyways, I reckon I sent her from April to like seven months, just kind of, can we get Paul on, can we get Paul on? And as soon as I got Paul on, it started building that momentum. but it's a really special restaurant they did a gift bag it's mad I think things like that are just so again going back to things like what makes a good restaurant and a great restaurant it's those little touches and those things like and also those things come from like it's not like wanting to tick boxes for like michelin or something like that it's just because that's what those guys want and it's like that that's how they push it for uh in this year as well is another great example like gareth's like yeah one of my best mates is like unbelievable and when you go there everything is geared around making that experience like life-changing as opposed to talks me about that more sinking to that more i think like yeah that that's it it's like rather than going what can we do to win another star or what will what will michelin want or what can we add that we can charge more for it's just experience led it's people going let's just do something what like that everyone will love and then people will remember forever and that do you know what i mean those are like that's what makes things exceptional yeah yeah so so the guy interviewed on wednesday is like a legend sir sir john hegarty i was thinking before the pod i'm gonna have to go sir john sir john but i was just like john but he's just calling him sir no that's what i was thinking i was like my mate called me before and he was like you're gonna have to call him sir john and i was like oh fucking hell this could be a bit awkward but no it was fine um and he um but he so he's like an advertising don like he did he did he's crying he basically made levi's really yeah yeah he's like he's like 81 years old and he's still like he's still after it getting he's like super super creative and i love that he's just creativity is everything i try and do with this um but one of his he said a similarly to you mate is you know creativity is an expression of self yeah that's it that's the the exact definition wow what a great yeah um but then he also says one of his things is it's all about making the work better so and i'd love to sort of apply this with food and he was he said good is the enemy good what did he say good is the enemy of great i love that because then he's like some people like oh that's good he's like no no no once you've got something decent yeah you've got to make it either great or life-changing yeah how do you that sort of continuous relentless almost improvement how do you how do you do that with your restaurant so it is always becoming more life-changing yeah like i'm uh again when going back to like the imposter syndrome thing like i'm never kind of happy with anything like i i just want it to be like i look at things and like again it's that sort of thing like you look around and it's um i think almost sort of thinking you know that thing like grass is always greener yeah like i look around and i'm like i think everyone's like a little bit better so i'm like we need to like we need to like we need to improve like let's look at this again and it's like um like sort of dishes that were so like going back to like the cornerstone there we had this thing on at the start that was like this potted shrimp crumpet and it was like people were coming it was like all over instagram it was like the thing and so we kept it on the menu we never never took it off right for for the first few years and then i felt like that was so like if the menu is like a level like that that was sort of the standout one that was like a the bit above but then everything else like sort of raised and it and that was it became the worst oh no that was the worst thing on the menu because everything else we were like we were changing getting better but this one we were like oh let's keep it on um because people want it and then by the end i was like i was fucking sick of it i was like this is shit now like this is shit and it wasn't it wasn't shit but like do you know what i mean like so i'll never forget that like every i just we we look at everything like the capital is an example it's only it's only just been open it's only open for whatever it is for four months now but like there's the dishes that we sort of started with and we were like yeah this will be a signature we we try them again well the car there was a we had this like cuttlefish ravioli yeah which we still got did you have that i didn't have that no so like so it's um what we do is like we make the pasta from the cuttlefish so we like uh cuttlefish is like really rich in um albumin this type of protein called so it's like when you blend it and like it sort of like uh comes together in this way that like it makes it like pasta i think so we blend it spread it between um spread it really thin steam it really gently and then we use it as the pasta sheets and then we we make like a ragu of the sort of the tentacles mixed with ricotta put that back inside and then we make these like beautiful little raviolis but like so we did it um in the development like before we opened we were like yeah great we'll leave this on this will be amazing we'll never change this and then two weeks later i was like no like let's do it better let's we did like a big sort of raviola and then i was like no let's make two small ones and then i was like oh let's let's make one of the pastas with squidding so it's like a black one and a white one and then you know now we're we're working on a version where we do with like mushrooms and truffle and it's like even those things that everyone's like talking about we look at them again and we're like how can we make it better it's almost like it's like you you when you when you do something like that i think even when it's great it's like that's the foundation right so you never go back to work better yeah yeah so you never go backwards you just go yeah you know what's absolutely mental mate london is literally the greatest foodie city in the world with so many absolutely banging delish restaurants opening on the reg i absolutely love it but look let's get real there's lots of times where tables are still sat empty when your favorite spot is silently struggling and look every single table counts everyone needs solutions and they need solutions very fast and that my friends is where eat club comes in eat club is a profitability tool created by hospitality insiders including the absolute don Marco Pierre White Eat Club gives top bars and restaurants control of a new stream of quality paying customers to fill those quiet times no faff, no upfront costs only upside look, if you're in hospitality and you want bums on seats when you need them most, please drop the founder Pan or the VP of the UK Liz, both absolute legends, drop them an email fillmytables at eatclub.co.uk fillmytables at eatclub.co.uk, that will get you straight through to them and they can help please let's turn those 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29:41yeah yeah so i suppose almost the what i originally asked you is almost the that imposter syndrome or thinking things are shit or things that around you are better is the again this sounds like it's the driving force yeah impossible superpower whatever but like it it really is and yeah i i think so that's wild um i want to go back to the solo dining because i think it's one of yeah life's great experiences where are some of your favorite places to dine solo um so honestly anywhere with oysters i mean the thing is as well is like when people ask me like oh where'd you go that's good like i always just go i have like recency bias with it so yes one place everyone does yeah so one place that i absolutely love at the moment to go to is um the neighbor clubs in shoreditch so it's that pub isn't it yeah yeah and they've got one club row above which is like unbelievable i mean it's like the date spot like it's gorgeous it's Like you walk in and you feel like you're in Goodfellas.

30:37There's a guitar playing the piano. Wow. And like, again, like going back to that thing, like the lighting's perfect, the music's great. But Naver Clubs is amazing. Like to go and sit there, have like a really, really good pint of Guinness. I know, again, it's like that thing of like a lot, like Guinness has got to be good, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have a few oysters, sit there, prawn, scotch egg, unbelievable. Bianc Bianc Noodles, the sort of just opposite Pearly Queen, really, really good. Where else I can't think. um sabore sabore in uh in in heading street unbelievable um but yeah i like what do you like about dining solo um you don't have to talk to anyone yeah yeah yeah no i just i don't know i'm very like happy in my own company so i mean like to just sit there and just chill and like watch the world go by and i just think there's something really really nice about that i think yeah it's that kind of you know i'm joking i'm not talking to anyone but like like when you're a chef you're working in kitchens and that it's it's i know again it's a cliche but it's like it's hectic you're but you're around people all the time you're on it's like this kind of noise of like people asking you things like doing stuff and just to sort of have that kind of disconnect and switch off i think it's really good yeah and also you i think as you say when you're when you're with friends which is great i just i think the whole concept of dining alone i feel a lot of people feel awkward about that but the more you do it and you actually just you observe especially in london it's you just kind of observe the flow and ebb and flow of life it's just it's a delicious experience in terms of um like what nathan's taught you as i said we could jump all over the shop here um like in terms of like real principles that you've taken more from a leadership perspective yeah because i think as you said mate like being in those kitchens noise questions yeah to get to that sort of mission star level with with cornerstone like what were some of the principles he taught you that you you think really helped you get there um well like several i mean like nath is the like he's one of the best guys i've ever met like a chef human being whatever like like just as a person like to his core he's like a good a good person like I've never heard him raise his voice you know like people talk about like you know you look at these things where it's like shouting and like basically like they beat people into a good chef Nathan couldn't be more the other way like yeah my dad always used to he had this phrase like you catch more flies with honey than vinegar you know I mean like Nathan is the epitome of that like just a good a good guy that like wants you to do well and like i remember like he with like before i can cornerstone um he would he he said this thing to me where he was like once you've like won a star and won and done these things and you've achieved these kind of like tangible like on paper accolades if you like he was like one thing that will be that that is like so rewarding for you is to see people do well that works for you so like and for me that that really like resonated really stuck with me and i with with we we've always had like great staff retention because i feel like we really look after people and i like for me i want people to i you know i know chefs aren't gonna stay working with me forever i'm not gonna have like a you know john freeman like with sat pains it's been there for 20 years like i want but when people leave i want them to sort of say that their favorite time was was working with me do you know what i mean like i really i really they really it's really really important to me that like people have that and they go on and do well so that's a big thing but also like in terms of sort of the food and cooking like i just I just remember like this sort of perfect appreciation of like palate and food as opposed to like rather than sort of going this is a recipe it's more like why it's like why is this why is that good why do you add this little bit of acidity why do you do that I think it's more like this more holistic view rather than like this is how you do it this is the right way to do something it's more looking at things and going like i've said it before like with with like like pan frying fish right like everyone always goes right hot pan fishing skin side down 95 then you turn it over but like that's not i don't think that's true for like every kind of fish um and it's because of it's because of nathan he was like look some things you start in a cold pan some things you do in a hot pan sometimes you do this much so like well bass and bream because the the skin is quite thin we always do it in a cold and again like people there's not like a right way but there's wrong ways there's no right way but there's a wrong way so like bass and green we always do it that way and we we don't i don't score it because i don't i don't think it needs it if you if you if you do it slowly like that you don't need to get the the the heat into it that way we just do it like that and get the skin there but like one of my favorite ways to cook fish now is like get a beautiful piece of whatever cod like cure it a little bit so it's a bit more like me and then uh equal quantities like butter wine stock and just bake it in the oven and um it feels it feels a bit sort of mumsy it feels like it's kind of lazy do you know i mean it's not it's not lazy but like it it doesn't it's not as chefy as the other things but for me that's the best that's the best way to do it pan frying scallops you know when people do it and they roast it you get a nice crispy thing like that's fine but like for me i like to sort of just bake them really really gently so you get this beautiful sort of crease all the way through and it's just looking at it's i think it's like looking at ingredients again what is it that i want in the end like what's the end product rather than the process yeah and that that's that comes from from nathan just that like that like holistic thing yeah yeah why i don't know who i spoke to he goes, that was Osh from the Devonshire.

36:46He goes, you know, when I'm leading the team, he goes, I tell everyone why we're doing something. Yes. That's exactly it. That's what I'm like, waffling about with. No, no, no. But it's, the way you've said it, mate, it's beautiful because it's, I'm trying to think of the example they, so I think it's Osh's example is he was like, he'll be like, okay, so the team would be like, which way's north? Yeah. Yeah. Some people point that way, some people point that way. And he goes, the whole thing is you tell them, that this way's north yeah but it goes that then the why we're going that way yeah you know and i think it's quite a good way of putting it i think they've got all the backup glasses right because if if it's if it like the you know of guinness or any sort of pint in a plastic glass is crap yeah you know so it's just but that's the why and he sort of imbues that in the team yeah mate that's mad and then in terms of the um so so on that why why piece um more from kind of so that's that's sort of the kitchen side backstage that's how you do the that's how you cook the fish from a sort of service perspective and again putting your expression of self in there what are some of those that how do you apply that holistic why to that that makes sense uh i suppose it's like what do what do you i mean like when i when when i open cornerstone again like not really having been on the other side the other side yeah yeah i like approached it in the way of like what do i what do i not like right look what do i what do i dislike if i go to a restaurant so um one thing was i hate the awkwardness of like standing at the front uh waiting for someone to come and see me i hate not being greeted immediately so like when when it was built like that's why uh the the sort of the bar was like right in front of the door so as soon as you walk through someone sees you yeah you have the curtain that's like the disneyland experience yeah it's something but as soon as you're there like there's there's someone behind the bar so they go hi how are you okay straight away yeah um i hate uh when it's sort of quiet and you feel like you can't talk so again like made sure that like everyone every table could be sort of seen and like people would talk music i hate it when it's quiet so like we always just had like a good playlist on yeah what were some of the tunes on that playlist i'm trying to like there's so many it's just like bank like banging tunes yeah like i mean we we just like went with whatever i felt like basically i mean i would set up my phone on the pass and just go like put put whatever oh sweet yeah yeah like on a i don't know like on a friday night we'd have like a load of garage on or like yeah yeah yeah drum and bass even or whatever but then like in the in the day like when it's lunchtime we'd have like this obviously like cornerstone like played loads of art to monkeys and stuff like that um at yeah it was just whatever i felt like yeah yeah i mean the um i love that because i think you i think the way the best brands define themselves by what are you the way you define yourself is by what you're not like Kanye West there's a song I don't know like one of his songs is brilliant I've written about this it's everything uh I'm not made me everything I am so it's like I don't want to I want I by process of elimination of things I dislike will make me what I am yeah what are some of the other things you did on that um in terms of other things you fucking hate in restaurants that you sort of eliminated just like yeah I mean sort of spoke about a little bit but like things where sort of waiters tell you why you should like things just i just think that a restaurant experience should be like universal like i think it's just you know we we have like the sort of the saying the saying like in in all my places that's like we're in the business of happiness do you know what i mean like that's what we do like yeah yeah why do people go to restaurants are you on a date or it's your birthday or you know you you're sitting on your own but you want to be entertained like what like people walk through the door and then when they leave they should they should be happier than when they came in right so however you know that that we achieve that is is you know that's what we have to look at and that's what we have to try and sort of make so yeah just like just being friendly just being yeah such a good line yeah because it's like it was again i think this was all she was like hospitality needs a rebrand because actually you know hospitality could be going to fucking nando's could be going to you know yeah but these the higher extra restaurants it's it that's it's too much of a broad broad brushstroke term and i love the business of happiness yeah that's but that's what it is what it is yeah yeah yeah yeah we're not yeah and like again going back to the thing of like the food being kind of the last thing like it's it's not about it's not about the chef it's not like it shouldn't it shouldn't be about like pushing that on someone it shouldn't be like this is good because yeah it's just like people that the guest should tell you why it's good do you know what i mean yeah yeah they should they should come back to you with that like you just have to like facilitate that you're a facilitator in terms of again i'm obsessed with the arctic monkeys yeah i fucking love i went to see actually 2018 went to smokestack and then went to see them at the O2.

42:09Did you? Yeah, I was at that gig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was our mate. It was, um. Obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. But I, I love them. And, um, one of the things, so, you know, when they, so their early tunes, like, you know, um, yeah, bet you look good in the dance floor, fake tales of San Francisco. You know, it was that kind of aggressive, like, yeah, like, punky stuff doing it. Yeah. But it was like, yeah, lads out on the pace in Sheffield. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, Like, Fobber had that fucking urr in it. But then what I loved about them, and that's why I rate Alex Turner, the Beatles did the same thing.

42:42Stones did the same thing. They fucking reinvented themselves. And, you know, their sounds changed. Yeah. You know, you would have been like, again, I'm not going to start telling you to be Alex Turner here, mate. But how do you think about that in terms of, like, reinvention? Because I feel if you keep doing the same thing, you become stale. And actually, it's like reinventing. Because a lot of people didn't like that. You know, it's that weird album. is um that 2018 album it was um the uh tranquility hotel thing yeah yeah yeah yeah i loved it right and it's very different how do you apply that to food so i think there's quite like a a synergy with it and what you know like i say like who i'm not i'm not saying like we're we're i'm an like that arts of monkeys is like like an honesty to like what they they are so rather than just going oh everyone loved them like punky tunes where we're like yeah those things like being relevant to like what they are and like staying true to that if you know what i mean like as they're like they've got like more famous like their experiences are obviously different like going out in sheffield and being not being loud in nightclubs and things like that and they've just kept it like that and i think that's why like they're so good and that's why like they are like the the the best for me like the best band all the time like certainly british man and i think those like yeah you can see it like that evolution as like as artists i think it's like it's it's amazing to see and and do you think because you're so right it's it's you you change your creativity changed because it's an expression of self yeah yeah and um you know i think what's that one of my favorite songs is them is uh brian's is it brian brian storm or brainstorm yeah yeah he's like top marks not trying i'm like oh my god that's such a fucking tune yeah yeah yeah their lyrics their lyrics are amazing and and i went to uni in manchester i just remember that was in 2013 when that album came out and i was just we were all just banging it out the whole time yeah it was so good one of their lines is you know the thrill of the chase moves in mysterious ways what how what what is the thrill of the chase mysterious ways in cooking fuel or hospitality or the business of happiness um well i mean the thrill of the chase is like just making it happen isn't it it's like you know that that sort of striving for like something yeah really good and like the the process of making that happen i suppose that's the that's the thing that we all love really isn't it yeah what is is is the what is that in terms of the service and stuff just just everything i mean yeah service like making it making i think i think the thing with like with food as well is it's kind of like it's really it's like a really good like short-term gratification do you know i mean like you do something but there's loads of steps in that like so you're cooking something and like you look at it and you're like yeah that's that's perfect and then you taste it like that's amazing and then someone else eats it and they have the same thing and they're like wow like that's good yeah and you and again like you make someone happy by doing that so i think those that short time gratification is is what that's like we're all yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and then cornerstone like wow any art of monkey song why that one uh i mean i just i just remember like loving that tune when i was when i was a kid and sort of again i was just like i think it's like a really cool name for it yeah and also like you know cornerstone it's kind of got like connotations of like the first thing and like that's the foundation and yeah um who is it what who it was i think it's freud had this quote where it's like um uh oh god i can't remember now it's like work is like the cornerstone of like oh love and happiness is the cornerstone of work or something like that it's like really yeah like I sound silly now I can't remember it exactly but it's something like it's something like that and I just think like the word cornerstone just kind of meets like the foundation yeah yeah yeah yeah it's I just did it so Alex Turner will come to my restaurant oh really have you did you know Miles did you know Miles K yeah Miles is a very good friend because he's last Shadow Puppets yeah yeah yeah so talk me about your friendship with him what's he sort of yeah like about creativity Miles is like yeah it's like again like one of the best guys i've ever met miles is like massive on food like he's a huge oh really like loves it like loves restaurants loves again like as a solo diner like miles is probably like someone who does that more than anyone i know like he's really about it and like yeah with cornerstone it was kind of like uh we got loads of like famous people but like like before we'd have like loads of people coming through and like we we would always approach them the same way like just treat them like anyone else yeah of course yeah yeah do you know what i mean and like oh sorry oh and uh miles came in and like he he like just really enjoyed the food he came over and we started chatting and then from there it was like you know just two people that got on suddenly it wasn't yeah it wasn't like i don't listen i like loved miles's music I still do obviously but like it wasn't like it was anything else they're just like two people who got on do you know what I mean it was like yeah it was a very like real thing but no he's an amazing guy like been there for me like a lot over the years like he's a really really good guy and what's he taught you or like what have you learned sometimes like via I think you can learn from osmosis from people you know yeah what's he sort of taught you about creativity yeah just again like that like reinvention of like yourself and sort of things like miles's music it's very similar to like monkeys if you listen to it like the early stage that kind of like indie-ish sort of yeah yeah yeah you know there's more sort of like bluesy stuff and then like this kind of more jazzy bits and like almost this kind of like glam rock sort of barrier he was in but like it's that like reinvention of like what you think is like good at that time do you know what i mean because things you know it's people change, things change, the world changes.

49:09And that sort of looking at it and not just sort of staying with one thing, it's that kind of like reinvention, I think. Yeah. What are some of the big reinventions that you've gone through? Well, I think sort of the biggest ones are like when I opened multiple restaurants. Because like with gastronomy, you know, I love eating different types of food, but I love cooking different types of food. when at cornerstone it was like you kind of are trying to almost pack all that into one place right but when i've got like pearly that's sort of one style and then capsules like another style like that kind of high-end like super like boundary pushing like yes yeah yeah yeah and then now i've got uh islands as well with with brad's carter who's like my best mate and that sort of meat and fish it's like that surf and turf and like looking at that again and how that that is applicable as a restaurant uh like to it's it's it's great like that because you look at things again and you're like this is how we need to do this one this one this one because like that those like these are different ways that i like to cook also different ways that i like to eat do you know what i mean so you're looking at them like this isn't just one style it's it's different styles yeah yeah yeah yeah so you've almost got multiple expressions of self yeah exactly yeah exactly exactly and how's like from again from all you know we talked about the you know that uh was it the potted crab dish that kind of you there and then everything comes up almost like say with going from one restaurant to three yeah that's almost that what's what's what's been the hardest bit about coming up there from um just like yeah a leadership perspective but also like in cornerstone i think you were there mate when when i was when i ate there but But with that, you can literally see the whole fucking thing.

51:07So you're in control of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, it's like someone's eating at the Capitol right now. Yeah, yeah. How do you navigate that bit? What as in, like, sort of not being, like, From, like, a leadership perspective, really, yeah. Because you've got to step back, right? Yeah, I think, like, I genuinely believe that, like, um like letting people take responsibility and and go with it like is is always a step forward like if you're just there and you you're on the pass every day and you're like overseeing every single dish not that not that that's you know a bad thing you do have to have that presence but also like you're quite blinkered do you know what i mean like you're you're yeah you're not and also So it's like people perform better when they have a sense of ownership of things.

51:59That's what I think. So if I say to someone like, this is, or like anyone says to anyone, like, this is how you do it. Like the Osh thing with like, this is North. Yeah, yeah, I love that. If you say like, this is how we do it. And people go, okay. And they do it that way. Maybe they come in, they're hungover or they're pissed off or whatever. but if you say to someone like how do you think we should do this and then they have that like sense of ownership on it then they they're not gonna like let that slip because that's to them that's that they're proud of that do you see what i mean completely yeah yeah i think like um at cornerstone we had uh kelly colin like pastry chef who's like the best the best pastry chef I've ever known what's so why is she so good I mean fucking hell man she's just like a level above she's like so so talented really yeah just this she's only young but she has this like encyclopedic knowledge of pastry and like but also this kind of like way of approaching it of like nostalgia deliciousness like just what's what's great and like we did this I was like oh I want to get a pavlova on and I sort of said oh okay well let's do this pavlova and we did this one that like I sort of like not came up with but I was like yeah so we make it like beautiful merengue nest and then we do this custom and strawberries and things and she was like oh I've got this idea of like doing like where everything's inside the meringue and I was like okay cool and then she went off and worked on it and it became this thing it was like something that we were sort of known for as like a signature and then you start seeing other people doing it And, like, I know that, like, she would never let one of those go out of the kitchen that wasn't a 10 out of 10 because, like, that's her thing.

53:52Do you see what I mean? Yes. I don't need to go and oversee every single one that goes out because I know that she would never, because that's her. That's, like, her thing. Yes. See what I mean? So giving people, I think giving people that ownership is so important because they're, you know, they're never going to let their own thing slip. It's like saying like now, you know, we're recording this and I've got Alex and Eric over at the Capitol who have like helped develop those dishes like from day one. and I know that I don't need to be there going, this ain't right, that ain't right. Because they've started, they've done it from the genesis of that thing.

54:32Do you know what I mean? So that's their identity as well. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, the identity. Yeah, because the identity, and then you don't want to, for a lot, you don't want to. I've got the time, mate. I've got the time to sit there and go, this is how you do it. As in from them, from their perspective, it's like their identity's in that dish. Well, then, you know, that thing going out is an impact on their sort of status and thing. and like yeah I like I'm like I'm only one person I'm not like and I'm not right about everything like I'm not like no one is so to have those other people like having their input like it's only a good thing like yeah I don't understand this thing of like chefs that like don't give people that work with them like the credit that it is because like I say I've got three restaurants and I'm like I can't be everywhere at once but like the people that deserve they they do it day in day out so like they deserve the credit but like they they are the ones that like make it happen so to have those those people doing it and looking after it is like it's essential yeah no I love that like that what you've always sort of pick up on things but it's the that kind of universal why of why we're doing something and then giving people their kind of own ownership and status around that and their input on it.

55:46And then it means you can kind of, you don't have to fucking be there, right? Yeah, exactly. Like there was, I remember hearing Adam Byer years ago talking about like how, you know, it's like, he's an unbelievable chef. Like we had a young guy working for us, Tommy, who was, he's actually the manager of Arctic Monkey's son, funnily enough. Really? Yeah, that's joking. So Ian, who's done today? Sorry, yeah. Have you cooked for Alex Turner? Yeah, yeah, twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get back onto that. But yeah, sorry, go on to Adam. So Tony worked with us and I was like, he like did his college stuff.

56:28And then I was like, you need to like go and work somewhere else now. Like you've done, you've completed it. Like you've completed what you do here. And I was like, go work somewhere like the Ritz or like at Trinity or whatever. He's at Trinity now, like doing amazing. but I remember I remember hearing Adam talking about the difference between being a chef and a restaurateur and he was like once he sort of stepped out of the kitchen a little bit things got better and he could sort of oversee it all and it really sort of stuck with me and I think that's like a really good way to look at it once you get to sort of the next level of being like a chef or an owner or whatever to like step back a bit and like oversee people doing yeah yeah yeah it's almost really instead of being at like three thousand or like sorry three feet you're at three thousand yeah exactly i love that yeah yeah no i get like one of my local pubs is the prince of wales that weird quirky booths are opposite the trinity oh yeah yeah you go in there it's just fucking weird but it's it's um yeah i know it's good it's really good but i think i haven't actually eaten trinity i've done the upstairs which is unreal they've now got that sarni truck out the front which i think is a really good idea why do you think he's such a great chef do you think what's so special about him because I think even Gordon Ramsey said like he's the guy yeah I mean like for me I obviously having Cornerstone and like really sort of specialising in fish I'm like amazed by these people who have like this again like this encyclopedic knowledge of everything like if you sat here right and you're talking to Adam or John Williams or someone like that or Gordon or any of them you go Kaufman or whatever you're like how do you cook this?

58:17like they would know like they would know like how to cook a trotter or whatever kind of fish whatever kind of meat I ain't got that so like I can do fish I can do whatever you want with fish but like like I'm I'm like the what's it the who is it Bruce Lee when he's like fear the man with like who's not who hasn't got a thousand punches but the one who could do the punch a thousand times yeah so like that's that's that's like my thing but then like these guys i'm just like in awe of them because they just know they know fucking everything man it's like they're they've got this like this literally like the repertoire in their head it's like unbelievable so i think those people are like they're they're who i look up to i'm like wow you know everything but then but your name is like synonymous with fish and and almost reinventing that or bringing that more like so talk to me about that and what what are some things you know about fish and you know this isn't just literally about cooking this could be like the supply chain that why did you really

59:46a lot of us he went no no it's good like it's nice he was like but the fish is so much better like just do that and i was like okay cool so like i was around with it look at claude's like this big sexy fridge do you know what i mean i'm not gonna argue with it guys yeah yeah so like we took it all up i didn't realize you were doing meat yeah we did yeah we did we had a couple of meat dishes yeah but he was like don't bother he was like just just just do the fish so so we did that and then like like growing up in cornwall and like you know i used to go fishing with my dad a lot and like i know a lot of fishermen from down there like time and naif and i think like that sort of appreciation of like produce and like i i like to i'm like a nerd with that stuff like i like to learn about so pun the pun but like swim more into that yeah exactly yeah i love people's like foibles or like weirdest eccentric eccentric kind of obsessions so talking about yeah like it's just it's it's just that like i like i like knowing little things i love like i mean oysters is the one now like i'm just like fucking obsessed with oysters like i was over at carlingford like last literally last week like i go over there and see that's an island right yeah it's in ireland yeah so it's on the it's right on the border between norval island and the republic of ireland and um kian and mary who are there like the most amazing people you've ever met like it's this family business like the the oyster beds are unreal and again like people you know the oyster farm's 50 years old now but like constantly looking to make things better so like um things like so with oysters like as as they grow like the the way that you make this sort of like cupped sort of deep shell is oysters as they grow the the shell on the bottom makes this sort of like thin thin layer that comes up and if you break it down that's how you get that sort of teardrop shape by like chipping by chipping away at the at the shell so as it grows it grows sort of up like that you know what i mean yeah yeah like what they do now is the is the and the oysters are growing in like big sort of sacks that are like on these like sort of stands these sort of metal stands and they do it they get there and shake the bags every day and it's like very very laborious right but now what they do is they put them in a spot where the tide is and they have these floats so as the bags come up as the tide comes in the bags floats as well and the tide naturally shakes them to break the to break the oysters do you know what i mean yeah yeah down so the so they it gets an even better product and that's like a new thing like but i mean like kian's marine biology like i love people like this who get obsessed with some one thing and just and it's like it's learn it's learning new things like when did we start eating oysters like what was the crap i don't know if you know the answer to that but mate honestly there's a there's a there's a quote who's like it was a brave man who the first man that ate an oyster like i fucking hated oysters when i first ate i was like this is gross yeah it's like an alien sponge yeah it's like it's like a salty bogey yeah yeah yeah i love them i'm like this is this is like amazing and like so so yeah it's like that that learning thing so like uh went over to carlin for the last week they're sitting in the sun drinking a pint of Guinness like big box of oysters we just sat there opening them chatting and like uh Kim's like talking about so when you open an oyster often and this is like something that I hate with chefs like when they open it and there's like the the top when you open the the top and there's the sort of the lid of the oyster sometimes there's like a really thin layer of meat left on it because they've they've opened it a bit badly and Kim was like that's that that's well the uh lycogen is it's called and basically that's lycogen and that's all the fat and like the sugar that's in the oyster so basically when you when you eat an oyster they filter like 55 liters of water a day so basically when you when you taste an oyster you're tasting where it's from it's almost like wine do you know what i mean it really yeah tell what exactly tell what but like so much of how they absorb flavor is in that really thin layer on the top yeah because they're just opening quickly i've seen even the lads at work i was like this sometimes they do it quickly they're doing and i'm like no this is so important that you leave and i i you know i i would tell them before obviously leave don't you don't want to waste nothing but like i went i i never knew that until literally last week do you know what i mean that's where the that's where so much of the the the the liking is kept yeah so doing those things like going over there i wouldn't know that now if I didn't go over there and like have those conversations you know I mean so constant obsession yeah and chatting to suppliers and like just absorbing like because they're because they're like again like he's he's obsessed with like making things good and making it better like to have those conversations it's the same like fishermen and all that yeah fish is interesting because apparently lobster used to be like it used to be like a poor person's food and then reinvented like if it wouldn't eat lobster and it's like that almost had a fucking reinvention Yeah, well, I mean, like, yeah, if you look in places like Maine and sort of North America and things like that, there's like lobster shacks and stuff that are like that.

1:04:53And Oyster's a great example, actually. Oysters are now seen as quite, like, bougie. It's like an art market thing. But, like, this was like when I opened Pearly Queen, I was like, I want to, like, kind of not have that sort of, like, cachet to it. I want it to be like something for... Like the Buffalo Oysters. yeah exactly yeah the buffalo ones yeah they're sick they're so good it's such well that is the democratization of oysters yeah exactly and like and i think but like oysters were were for years they were like poor people's feed like that was that was the thing like in london there was actually like a law of uh that was passed of how many times a week you could feed your servants oysters because people were just panning oysters off really yeah yeah seriously like and you know that thing as well like where it's uh you shouldn't eat shellfish when there's an when there's not an r in the month have you had that no no no also it's like this thing like people say oh don't eat shellfish when there's no r in the month and that's that's down to the spawning season of native oysters and you're still not allowed to sell native oysters between from may to august because that's this morning season and they were like over fish to the point like of near extinction native oysters yeah yeah yeah so i'm gonna ask some dumb like toddler questions here mate but what's the difference between an oyster and a mussel like what like how like what is what yeah oh well i mean they're completely different species yeah like yeah yeah different yeah they're but i mean they're both like bivalves so like bivalve is like anything that opens a shell like on two sides yeah i mean so yeah but just completely different species yeah yeah mate it's mad i one thing you said about well i don't either watched on instagram video or read it somewhere but you talked about like fish actually have like fat and you can render that down like so what are some other again I love people who go all in on one thing like I know we're talking about the punch a thousand times but yeah whatever it is yeah so talk to me more about that the fat in fish what most people get wrong or misunderstand about fish I think the biggest thing that people get wrong with fish is they fish is like um like if you said meat like meat in meat you've got lamb you've got chicken you've got beef you've got pork whatever right and then on a lamb you've got shoulder you've got leg you've got breast you've got rack and people don't look at fish in that way yeah do you know what i mean so like they they don't appreciate like the breakdown of it and fish is exactly the same like mackerel cod to other that they're all they're all their own things and they're so different to each other and the different cooking methods that come with those things like you know uh if i look at like a gurnard right i'm not cooking gurnard it's better for curing because it's the texture of the meat the density the the fat content and i think what people often do is is look at fish as like one thing as opposed to like breaking it down into those different sections but like with like something like a salmon you've got like the loin you've got the belly you've got like the collar you've got the head and people don't break it down into those different things and they don't they don't like look at it and assess it i think with with fish it's just it's a type of protein that it's not it's not just one thing do you know what i mean but people look at it in a certain way and like there's Josh Nyland in Australia he's the like the god of this like the way like you know so Josh Nyland has these unbelievable restaurants in Australia and he's like he does like the fish butchery like that's his thing he's like the fish butcher but so he approaches it like me right so he does lots of dry aging I mean everyone dry ages fish now like this guy was the fucking well because we had the charcuterie at the yeah yeah I mean like again like we we like really took the the inspiration for the charcuterie from that was unreal and that yeah i was gonna ask at the end of the meal for more bread but i thought you're absolutely wrong and to do that ask for it like but um yeah so sorry what so josh what was yeah so he was sort of the first yeah he like really pioneered all that excuse me and you know that that looking at it of like it's not just fish it's not just like a thing that's sort of all encapsulated in one word it's it's different avenues in in those things and like different styles of like this is what you do with this part of fish this is what you do with that sort of part of the fish it's like yeah that's that's something that i think people don't do enough of they just go oh it's fish or oh even even within that they go oh it's turbo or it's oh it's cod but like when you break those different parts what's like a fish that say most people think cook this way john dory whatever and then what are some of the other like beautiful ways you can actually cook it well i mean like all of them really i mean like like bass is a prime example right so everyone goes nice crispy skin pan fried but if you steam it it's beautiful if you bake it like peel the skin off yeah cure it's raw like it's just looking at it and going like how is and trying out things like making mistakes like doing it doing it one way doing it a different way and seeing what's best i think that's that's what like i love to do like you know when when like the guys come forward and they're like oh i've got this idea it's like well let's try it right let's just try it yeah if it's shit then at least we know it's shit do you know what i mean like it's not it's not like this is right or wrong it's like let's let's just see what what is best isn't because the guy um again this john hegarty guy interviewed that again about recency bias right but he was saying he had a great another great quote about creativity which is um process is uh process is make turning chaos into order right nice right process is turning chaos into order creativity is um sorry yeah creativity is creating chaos to then create a way of order so it's basically like trying loads of like being create like loads of chaos trying new things with its shit and at least then you know where it kind of goes in the right direction yeah definitely and I think like yeah if you don't try it you don't know it the one thing I wanted to talk to you about is your tattoos and they're sick but the one on the back of your neck is that the world is yours yours yeah that's on your restaurant as well yeah like i don't know i mean that one was sort of uh it's kind of like a uh like a double meaning because obviously like there's the saying like the world is your oyster yeah that's what then uh the world is yours is like that thing in scarface you know where he sees the blimp kind of it's like the world is yours and he's got it around this thing so i just thought it'd be cool yeah yeah i wrote like when i first started getting tattoos i was like um yeah it's got to have like i think about it for ages and i'm like oh yeah it's got to have all this meaning and it's got to be like yeah if it you know i want to talk about this and it's like oh well this is because blah blah and then when i got enough of them i was like i'm just gonna start getting ones i think yeah well that's my mate my mate raz has got fucking like i think he's got elvis on his back leg and then like he's got um mickey mouse with a zoot hanging out of his mouth or something like that like it's just like he was like i just want sick stuff like i like on my yeah exactly like like there's no i don't i don't like regret any of them and like almost like a lot of some of them are like just like a moment in time like yeah yeah you've got things that are like from different flash days um like at different shops and like um the good like one of the good things now about like having a restaurant is now i like can swap um like tattoos for food so like yeah there's a like an unbelievable artist called emma and alice and she was like she messed it she came to cornerstone she was like really enjoyed it and then she was like oh if i like if i do some tattoos like can i have some free meals i was like yeah yeah yeah so anyone listening yeah yeah yeah hit me up toe ice what are some of the yeah what are some of those unreal tattoo artists like what's is anyone you specifically go to or uh so do you have a brief or do you just look at things that you think are sick yeah like I think like the best thing like my best experience with getting or the thing I love most with tattoos was when I got I got my first tattoo when I was like 20 right and it was just one on my back and like I turned up with this like Google image that I found yeah it was fucking shit it was like Celtic knot thing I turned up and this guy who was doing it he was like okay like so I had a look at it and he was like it's fine he was like but with a Celtic knot normally it would be a bit like this like do you want me to a Celtic boat is like a Celtic knot so it's like different it's like it's like a pattern where things all go around so it's like an infinite sort of loop yeah yeah yeah and he was like yeah like basically telling me this is shit do you want me to make it good and I was like nah just go with that we'll go with that and like that one I've like had my whole back done now to to kind of cover this one oh really twice actually i've had it covered twice um because it was like on so dark and like i it was it was good to like know know that afterwards because like now when i go i'm like i've got an idea and like you let them do it do you know yeah to go to the artist you're like like you let them sort of lead it and like do what do what yeah so and like the guy like for example the one on my back like so that's a guy called um Elliot Lane, whose shop Only Here For You, unbelievable shop.

1:14:42Only Here For You. Only Here For You. That's such a good name. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, I mean, Elliot's like one of the coolest guys I've ever met. He's like unbelievable. But he, yeah, so like we worked together on doing this like big thing on my back and he's just like. What is it on your back? So it's like, it's like the, so you know the Odyssey, like the. Homer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on my back is the bit where Odysseus is tied to the mast and he's got the siren singing to him. So the Odyssey is the story of a guy called Odysseus. It was after the Trojan War. So they're all going home and Odysseus goes on this mad journey where he goes to all these different islands.

1:15:29and he he like goes past or he's going past this island where he's heard of the sirens so like the sirens are these like beautiful women that sit on the rocks and they sing like so nicely the sailors are like drawn to them and they like crash their ship and Odysseus is like right we're going to go past it he's like I have to hear them but like if I'm not like tied down I'll be like right let's sail the ship in there so what they do is the the um the sailors uh block their ears up with wax and they tie him to the mast because he's like i've got to hear it and it's you know this song uh golden brown by the stranglers yeah yeah yeah so like it was one of my dad's um favorites favorite bands for the song and there's the lines like um every time just like the last on the ship tied to the month oh yeah that's that yeah mate that song's one of the best tunes yeah exactly yeah of course when it comes in it's yeah so i was like so i was like to elliot i was like i really want to do this thing and he was like i mean i don't know if you did sorry did you go to him with this whole odyssey thing yeah with the idea and he was like i mean yeah he might like it's been i mean like i've had like 30 hours on my back and it's like halfway done so really yeah it's kind of i don't know if you might regret saying yes to it now a little bit but but it's cool it's like yeah so it's like you learn about that that um that odyssey story like well i was like i was obsessed as a kid i was like yeah it was like just the Greek mythology and stuff like that I love yeah like I love I love all that I love learning about like just people who are obsessed with like random shit because I think that's what makes people so unique yeah it's um I interviewed Will and Jack at Fallow yeah yeah and Will is like obsessed with like I think he did like ancient history or classics really or something and he's he's obsessed with reading all these fucking random like recipes and stories and he because i thought well fallow because it's um why is it called fallow i thought it's because it's like a deer right he was like no no it's because that's what i thought yeah yeah yeah it's you know i should remember it but the story is he went on some mad like mad kind of um kind of tangent about the the fallow of this old book in the beginning of time something like that it was it was mad but yeah so what some what some of the stuff about ancient history or like grief and mythology i mean i just think like those stories are just like amazing from from like reading them as as a kid and i think there's like certain aspects that like still resonate and like it's still relevant now so like the the thing with like a dish is very tight to the mask i mean you know there's so many like there's so many like parallels people could draw from that like of you know things things that like like social media yeah exactly yeah like doom scrolling or whatever like where you're like you don't want to you you can't help but like yes be in the thing that's like isn't good for you do you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah um another one like i've got uh like icarus on my on my arm like you know flying too close to the sun yeah yeah things like that like i just think yeah when have you when do you believe you flew close flew close mouthful that flew too close to the sun have you ever done that with your restaurants or like i don't know i mean like no i don't know i don't know if i mean like yeah it's kind of like a pretentious thing to say like oh you have a flu too close to the sun but you know you i don't know i don't think i've ever yeah yeah yeah any other sort of um greek stories that you think uh because i've read a lot about stoicism yeah i like that like i've read like Marcus Aurelius and Seneca.

1:19:18And I like some of their quotes, like really like just good for today. Yeah. You know, and I'm trying to think of, I think that, you know, focus, but main thing is just focus what's in your control. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I like a lot of the, the old, like, I've not read like in depth, like I'm not, I've got like a philosophy degree, but like, you know, I love things like, you know, Socrates where he said, like yeah i'm the wisest man on the earth because i i know i know nothing do you know what i mean i love and i love that like yeah yeah you know that humility of that and then uh plato was another one who's like every uh in all genius there's a measure of madness something like that i'm probably really like i mean i think i think these things are like job than mine like yeah focus on your control yeah i think those things are like they're so again like that's that's a quote from like thousands of years ago, but it's like, it's so relevant.

1:20:14Yeah. They, they, they say, they, they, yeah. And also I think it's what you were saying about sort of the, this is what, again, what John was saying. He's like, humans haven't changed, but we think we've changed mad. And it's like, cause I mean, this guy's an advertising don, like he studies human behavior and he's, he's just like, mate, like go and read old fiction. Yeah. It's like, don't read a book from the 1800s. You'll just realize we're all just the same thing. And I think even goes back to, to the, to the Greeks. um we don't have to go here if you don't want to but I know you lost your old man which is so sorry that happened um but how did you navigate that period of your life uh I mean that was like yeah like the the worst experience of my life uh obviously um and it was it was at like a really really like hard time with with the restaurant as well it was like it was two days before the last reopening after covid so it was like the two days of the before the last lockdown so it was like that happening two days later we had to reopen the restaurant completely and it was it was really it was it was awful like i mean to any anyone who's lost a parent will know it but like my dad was like he was like my hero like i you know like i look i like Like, I adored the guy, you know what I mean?

1:21:34Like, we, when he died, like, my brother and sister, we really kind of, like, came together. Like, it really, like, bonded us. Yeah. And, like, the thing that I loved with it, and, like, it's so horrible, but, like, we, like, have so many stories about dad. Like, he was so into his music. Like, we've got a playlist that we added to, that we add to me my brother and my sister like a spotify list of like all the songs that we remember with dad like listening to him in his van like on the way to here and there going fishing whatever like songs that he used to just just love and like the playlist is like i don't know it's fucking like 20 hours long or something do you know what i mean and like we we still like tell his jokes we uh dad always used to like he would he he would always say like your mate so he'd be like oh i saw your mate today oh really and it was like someone i i don't i've no idea who he is always like i see your mates back at it again you're like who's like donald trump i was like and like now and now and now um in the restaurants it's like all the guys that work for me they all go oh your mates at it again like and that's like do you know what i mean that's put it down and i think like yeah it's such a beautiful thing like i remember when we when um when dad when dad died was it like out of the blue or was it oh yeah oh my god like yeah so no completely so like he like he had like a pain in his chest and so he rang my sister and was like oh I've got pain in my chest she was like well ring an ambulance and he was like yeah yeah I might do and then hung up the phone and then he rang my auntie Barbara who's his sister who's like a nurse and he was like I've got this pain in my chest she was like ring an ambulance he was like alright alright so do you know what I mean he's like reluctant to ring this ambulance anyway so he got an ambulance rang my sister he's like Vic I'm going to the hospital don't have a drink or anything tonight because I might need to pick me up later sisters in Cornwall sisters in Cornwall yeah so I live in London my brother lives in Mexico and sisters in Cornwall she was like alright anyway so he's gone in there did a few tests on him they were like we're going to keep you in overnight like someone came around in the morning it's gone like uh like uh yeah it's crazy no no it's like it happens you know um oh but do you know the thing like i i'm glad it was that way like it was going to be that way because my dad was like this like you know not ringing the hospital or anything uh not ringing an ambulance he was like this this like typical cornish like hard like he was a builder right builder i remember like when i was a kid he came home one time and he had like this bit of duct tape over his eye with like blood and like like just crappled down his face and he came in and my mum was like what have you done he was like oh it's kind of a metal and it's a bit's flown up and gone in my eye and she was like well why are you here why haven't you gone to the doctor and he was like i don't know it'll work its way out like a split she was like it's metal in your fucking eye and they had this route and finally he went to the hospital but only he was only gonna go if he could drive himself do you know what i mean so so my dad was like and you know he was always joking he was like this funny like life and so like again like just the most amazing guy and i'm glad that i didn't have to watch him get old and like yeah deteriorate in that way and like you know look after him because like he'll always be that to me do you know what i mean when he when he died i remember at a funeral my sister was like i'd rather had i'd rather had 30 years of this than a million years with anyone else do you know i mean and i think that's that's definitely something that like sits with me and just like i love that i'll always me my brother and my sister will always have the memories of this guy who like we just we absolutely adored i mean like you know i think about him every day i'm quite you know what's some of the lessons he taught you that you sort of like you apply into your businesses and your or like just i think your mate one is quite interesting yeah you're kind of always on that crack you know that he dad dad always used to say it doesn't it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what you do if you like when you're at work like do it the best you can like if you're cleaning the toilet make that toilet yes sparkling yes yes he he said to me as well like um you can't you don't don't expect anyone to do anything you wouldn't do yourself so like when we're at work if you're not getting involved if you're just dictating to people like don't expect them to do it for you do you know what i mean like you if people don't see you doing those things yeah you know what i mean this you don't have that superiority uh the thing the thing that like really sticks out the most that he said was like the best thing a man can do is look back on a hard day's work and know you did a good job and i think like now if you get to the end of the day and you look back on it you're like you're happy that you've you've you've worked hard and you've really achieved happiness comes from working hard yeah i i i feel like a piece of shit like even if i've been out you know if i don't wake up and what like do some form of hard work i feel i feel shit and like it's again like saying about that like instant gratification thing or short-term gratification like she like chefs in general are like shallow people like they want to be told they're good they want praise they want that and that comes from from that that thing with dad of like you know looking back on like the good day's work and being like i'm proud of that yeah yeah yeah also i mean but i think like but what i love about what your old man's advice is is it's how you do one thing is how you do everything right yeah the way you clean the bog yeah you've got to make that sparkling perfect so when you go and cook fish or whatever you know and i think it is such a savior i don't i don't want to i don't want to go through a day thinking that i haven't really tried to do what i'm doing well like i'd rather just not do it do you know yeah yeah yeah if i'm just gonna i would never like sling out shit food or i'd just be like it's fine like let it go like no like if you're gonna do it like yeah and again good is the enemy great as yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah and they're like yeah just like i don't want to just let anything go and just be like yeah it's fine yeah just leave it like i i'd just rather not do it do you know i mean and like as a chef like you put so much into your into your craft like you know you give up you give up so much of your time and like social life and relationships and things like that do you know what i mean with people like the amount of like people's weddings i missed birthdays and stuff like that like if i'm not gonna if i'm not gonna do it well like i'd rather just go and work in the pool center or something just take a wage and do that like yeah yeah i want to put everything into everything yeah yeah yeah that's that's from dad and how did you get through that so then so goes to hospital next thing he's not there you've got to open the reopen the fucking restaurant yeah yeah take me to that day to the apex of that like how do you uh i think there's everyone's going through hard shit right yeah you may listen to this and be like wow that's that's really helped me yeah to be honest I think um I think that I had like I I like threw myself back into work and I probably shouldn't have I I should have like took some time to reassess but I was like I wanted to like uh have that distraction yeah and you know I'm so lucky that the people I had around me were like so amazing there was um francesca who used to work with me who's like love like love her so much always well she's she's unbelievable she like looked after me so much and james uh toff who was the who's the head chef at cornerstone kelly as well alex who still works for me over at capital those guys like really like carried me do you know what i mean like they really really looked after how so by just taking taking all of the the pressure off by like just saying like no we got this like we've got the restaurant yeah yeah like we're we'll look we're looking after it and i was kind of like i was there but like i was there but like you know they they just like they did everything i mean i was like you know i was obviously like a bit of a bit of a mess with it you know what i mean it was like i was going through so much but um those guys yeah i mean you know thank thank god i had them yeah yeah yeah yeah they're amazing people there and like you know francesca's moved back to italy james is off doing his own thing but you know these are people that like i talk to all the time and they'll be like you know people with my life forever yes you know what i mean and those those things have forged from like from that restaurant why what so i've again and heard you or seen on your instagram talk about sort of james a lot as he's head chef at cornerstone right yeah yeah like why was why did you make him your head chef what was what was so unique about him other than him being a banging cook yeah well no it was that i remember uh like when when i was opening cornerstone i put it off on instagram like oh i'm opening the restaurant like looking for chefs and james he'll love hearing this by the way he's heard the story before he absolutely loves it so i was like um looking for chefs hit me up if you want a job right so he sent me a message on instagram and i looked at his instagram picture james is like very very handsome right right and i was like no i'm not fucking having this guy i don't need it i was like yeah i'm not having i'm not having this guy still next to me all day like he's gonna show me up but like i needed people to come and like get the restaurant open so i was like i'll come and do a trial day i thought i'll get three days work out of this kid do you know what I mean and then I'll just be like no thanks but no thanks anyway he came and he was just so good that I was like yeah he was so talented I was like I need to get this guy in yeah yeah um and then he actually he couldn't accept the job at the time because he was he was going off traveling and that and then I was in he's from the Midlands and I was in a pub in uh Birmingham randomly and he came up to me and he was like oh do you remember me I'm Jade and all his pals from the back going oh friend oh that's joke and he was like oh it's good it's good it's good to see you again i was like yeah it's great to see you i was like oh what you're up to anyway and then he messaged me again and like just at the right time and i was looking for someone to come and then he moved down and so he was just he'd done the trial shift at this point he did he did the trial this was years later so like he so he did the trial shift and then i think it might in a year later.

1:32:26Oh, so you were up and I'm sorry I didn't realise it was so fucking weird. No, no, he did the trial and then I offered him a job but he couldn't take the job at that time. Sorry, I can't. I didn't realise it was a year. Sorry, yeah. Yeah, I think it was about a year and then seeing him at this pub and afterwards he was like, oh, you know, I'd love to come and work for you still and I had his job going and then he came down as sous chef and like, yeah, I think six months later he was head chef. Like, he's, he's, yeah, he's good. Like, he's just very, very talented guy great like switched on like very creative with dishes like has a really really great palette and he was just like i say he was so talented i had to like yeah i had to get him on board yeah better looking one yeah and what's he doing now uh he's just he he's taken a bit of sort of um because james had been working in like michelle star kitchen since he was like 14 like i I think he started the cross in Kenilworth when he was like 14, 15.

1:33:22So after Cornerstone closed, he was like, I'm going to have sort of a bit of time to just kind of relax. So he does, well, not relax, sorry, that's the one, that's selling it short. He does some like consultancy stuff for some companies now to kind of do that. And I've no doubt that James will go back in and like be, you know, create an amazing restaurant. Yeah. Yeah, at the minute he's kind of like doing consultancy and like looking after some places. How do you? Which is, the thing is as well, it's like the landscape has changed. You know what I mean? It's not just about going in and being the guy at a restaurant.

1:34:01Like, you know, there's unbelievable like private chefs and people that do these like consultancy things. And like the landscape's different. Like people can be amazing. Like look at Kate Austin who's like gone on and won Great Rich Money. She's a private chef. she was like head chef like a two star now she does the private chef thing but like there's nothing she's still amazing do you know what I mean like she's still unbelievable like probably one of the best chefs in the country you know you don't have to be yeah it's different you know it used to be that thing of like you've got to go and own a restaurant and be the the iconic yeah that being a chef I know it's not that anymore do you know what I mean it's different it's different how what have you so have you ever had time off or like or taken a break or burnt like so I think you know working 16 hour days every day how how do you how do you rest or do you rest uh yeah no i mean i rest i i like i'll be honest now like i know i've got the three the three places but like i like i say like i oversee things more i'm like i do i'm on service like six days a week but yeah i kind of like oversee things a bit more so it's not as intense as it used to be where you're on like the past like slugging it out all the time the guys look after me how do you deal yeah because i love people who do as i say like hard things but how do you deal with that sort of ferocious um day in day out pressure intensity what's the art of that you just gotta love it really yeah yeah like like i say like it's the thing is with like being a chef it's not it's not just a like a job like a fucking j-o-b like clock in clock out like switch it off like you it's almost this like obsession of like loving it like chefs chefs go and eat out on their days off chefs are like thinking about things they're reading books you know what i mean they they're obsessive like nerds in that sense the the the best ones anyway um that they're really like they love it they love the craft they love everything about it and like for me doing something you love for like 16 hours a day it isn't work that's not like i i'm i'm lucky do you know what i mean like i get to i get to do something that i love and like enjoy all day every day i mean for me like no offense to anyone that works in office but like turning up and just fucking sending emails all day going over watching it watching fucking eastenders like that's for me like that's that's that would be hard that's that's work yeah what i what i do is like i i get to i get to do a thing that i love and enjoy every day do you know what i mean yeah i'm lucky like i'd rather be doing the 16 nowadays yeah yeah yeah yeah in terms of um so cornwall so i've got a mate who's from cornwall as well um he's got actually got a brand called mixtons and he's a yeah um good mate of mine and he was sort of saying there's a lot of people don't understand about cornwall it's sort of like the poverty that the poverty side of towards things i think because all these amazing restaurants the big holiday homes you know yeah rock and shit like that like but talk to me about the sort of the underbelly of cornwall people don't necessarily understand about it yeah it's interesting yeah i think with cornwall it's like there's quite uh there's like a bit of a disparity so you've got places like like say like your pad stoves rock where you know a lot of it is like million pound townhouses yeah yeah yeah very sort of affluent areas but then yeah like those you know Cornwall's main industry for a long time was was tin mining and there aren't any tin mines anymore do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah so those things like that there is there is uh there is a lot of poverty and it's not it's not um it's not all yeah rock and padstow like where I'm from in Red Ruth like whereabouts is that then in relation to it's like right in the minute it's like it's down west it's sort of near I suppose the closest town that people would know is like Falmouth or Truro and it's yeah it's not it's not a well off place like it's there's a lot of poverty there and I think yeah it's people tend to sort of see one side of Cornwall and there is that to it but like the people people are amazing yeah what's so amazing about them to you they're just good they're just good souls like like sort of the earth kind of people do you know what I mean like I go home when I go home like I'll meet up with like guys that I've known for years from school or whatever and they're just they're just good people you know what I mean it's like yeah I think it's that like you know I don't know what it sounds condescending but like working class people like you know we had we had fuck all grown up like I'm not I'm not from like a rich what were you like as a kid I don't know that's alright I was yeah I was just like a normal kid I guess yeah yeah I guess I was just like yeah I don't know I was just a normal kid yeah yeah yeah but like you know working class people I think not having not having everything handed to them have like an appreciation of of of the world in a different way and i think that's that's a nice thing you know there's no there's no there's no like um what's the word entitlement yeah yeah the um the i wanted to go back to the life-changing experience at i can never i'm so bad pronouncing things but in in issue yeah in this year um as i said we there's no chronological order to any of this but um just tell me about as you walk through why is that so fucking life-changing that place because it's not voted the best restaurant last year wasn't it uh was it this year no i think no it was uh two years uh what in the nra so it was ledbury last year and then i think it was the the year before maybe i can't remember yeah anyway but like yeah it's it for me like it is it is just such an experience so like it's in the middle of nowhere in wales like how'd you get there uh there's a train that goes to a town called oh god i can't i'm not very good at pronounce it i think it i think it's pronounced mccunlith oh mate the welsh names yeah it's half an hour it's about yeah it's like half an hour from aberystwyth i know that yeah yeah yeah yeah and but it's like have you seen that film the menu the menu so it's like it's a kind of horror comedy where it's basically like a a commentary on uh restaurants and it's uh Ralph Fiennes is is the chef and like it's on this little island and they all go there and there's like all these different people so there's like the guy who's like the chef he found or he's like knows everything about the chef and he's like he was just like this there's a couple who uh go there all the time but they don't know anything about food they just go there to go there there's like the finance bros and on that like part of the thing is like they go on this boat where they go out to the island and like in a good way Inisi is kind of like that like the drive there or the train there is like part of it you go through the countryside you kind of absorb it and then you get there and it's like this building with like all these beautiful grounds surrounding it and you go in and like uh everyone sort of sits down at the same time do you know what i mean yeah to eat so it's this it's this real experience how big is the restaurant small i think it's 20 seats so it's tiny but all the seats are like so the kitchen's up at one end so you see all the guys cooking and like the tables are all the tables of two they're sat next to each other yeah so they're facing the kitchen it's not like you're not facing each other you each other facing the kitchen yeah yeah yeah yeah do you know what i mean so yeah exactly it's this and like they have a dj on that plays all these tunes and like uh because everyone's eating at the same time like when dessert happens like this the lights go down like a disco ball drops down and like like so it's just this real like um this like obsessive thought of like every moment of your journey in that restaurant do you know what i mean like the the welcome the little welcome drink when you get there like how do they do that well they sit you down in the bar they bring out like a little and that because obviously they know everyone's traveled there so they bring out this little napkin that's like to sort of freshen up or should like wipe wipe your hands and all that it's like smells amazing it's like lemongrassies yeah they look after it and then they they yeah get you the welcome drink and then afterwards like there's a like a fire pit outside where everyone sits around and they've got like fur coats hanging up so when you go out you're like put on the fur coat and you go and sit there yeah you can have a cigar or whatever and it's just like every gareth is like again it's this obsessive like g absolute genius like he's he's what yeah but also like he's just the best person i know he's like whenever i'm around gaz like i just literally just want to hug him like i feel like i'm just kind of like and he's he's huge he's like fucking six foot seven like this big guy just i just want to like have my arms around him all the time he's just like this like beautiful soul like like i can't talk highly enough of the guy he's like but his food is so good and so like genius level do you know what i mean but every element when you say genius level just like again like just reassessing everything i've been there like i think four times and like everything is just tweaked constantly to make it better and better and better and better like and it's this kind of relentless obsession with perfection yeah and like every single thing is like it's so good and like i was sitting there and i was like fuck me i went like uh in may i think it was i was eating it i was like wow this is like so much better than last time and gaz was like oh he's like messaging you the next day like what didn't you like like how can we improve what was and i'm like guys i can't tell you how to improve man like I'm a fucking 10 % of the chef you are man and I was like what do you want to say I can't tell you how to repeat it you're the best but it's that relentless like I want to be better I want to be better Begis is an absolute fucking genius I mean how he like the flavour it's just the flavour it's like everything is like a fucking like explosion in your mouth but the balance is just like any specific dishes there's like a chilli crab thing but also it's relatable so it's like do you know what I mean it'll be like I don't think he's got it on anymore but there was one thing it was like a cat it was like a chicken katsu but it was like this thigh and then it had like this toasted panko and the ketchup and it was just like fucking like oh my god it was like unbelievable but the one that I'll never ever forget and he still has it on now it's like this chilli crab so it's like crab with like this kind of like chili ketchup crispy like puffed rice and then like this bow and that's where we got the idea for the crab bun so like yeah he does this bow on the side of it and you eat it it's just like fucking oh my god honestly like it's just everything he does is just unbelievable like he does the other one like this dessert he does when it's rhubarb season it's like rhubarb and custard so it's like just poached beautiful rhubarb and then this kept this custard that's like it looks like bird's custard like it's really yellow and like really kind of glossy and thick but there's no there's no dairy in it so it's just soy and he makes it this way we've we we use the recipe now at work because he did it but i remember when it was last time we went there rhubarb was out of season but like he has like frozen rhubarb that he like shaves over the top so it's just this little punch of like super acidic but then the sweet hustle it's just like everything is just it's perfect like just the way it like fucking like just how it makes your mouth feel like this and you know going back to that thing like everyone has a tongue in their head like no one could sit there and go that's not good do you know what i mean no one could could eat that and not be like blown away do you know what i mean it's it goes back like humans as a species like no one in the world can sit there and eat that dish and not be like this is the best fucking thing I've ever eaten the bit I love what you're saying there mate is also I went for lunch with Osh the other week and he was saying in hospitality you've got the best people think about the five senses so like excuse me you know I'm forgetting what the five fucking senses but I think also like smell and touch you know so the smell of the thing as you walk in the fur coat like he's all of those when you think of those five senses you really get that sort of as you say that business of happiness yeah definitely definitely i think and another thing as well that that that i i think with with with the experience in like with dining that that is so important is like how thing how something reads on a menu and like uh someone that is somebody who told me this is a guy called roy brett who's got um undine in scotland like like again like one of my favorite restaurants ever and like again like just such a such a good person like just such a lovely lovely guy who is again is like obsessed with food and making it better and stuff and like i i he did like a pop-up in in london uh when was it when would it have been like 2017 2016 and he did this dish i'll never forget it was like on the menu it said cod roasted in butter with whipped celeriac and poached lentils and it just sounds nice doesn't it cod roasted in butter and i ate i was like it's great he was like yeah but like when you read that on the menu you you want it do you know what i mean it's craveable it's like something like that whereas if someone goes on a menu like fucking lacto fermented fucking whatever yeah that's not that don't excite me do you know what i mean that's not i want things that are like i want to roast them but i want cheese i want do you know what i mean so when you read it i think as much as like you read it then it comes out you see it then you smell it then you taste it i think like that's really important as well yeah how do you think about that with your menu designs in terms of the reading how it reads just yeah i mean like just thinking of that wording of what sounds great do you know what i mean like wording it in a way of like what what sounds amazing also i think what with what you're saying with gala's food and also um about the way the words read is there's empathy for the actual consumer that yeah yeah yeah and i interviewed a really interesting guy from will store um and he's talked about this whole thing of like the the blandemic and it's in architecture and food yeah it's interesting and he basically says all the fucking buildings are crap now because it's architects trying to impress other architects yeah not actually thinking about the consumer and he did it with thomas um beatherwick who did you know the new london bus he designed cold drop really really yeah um and what this guy was saying he says he says you see the same thing in three-star food where chefs are trying to impress other chefs yeah yeah at that high level but they actually haven't thought about the consumer yeah yeah it's like as you say like a fucking white spunk valut or something like that i mean it's just like it's just like well that's the thing i mean i think again like um the chefs are like they're the facilitators like there's a it's like a a triumvirate of of uh consumer supplier and chef and the the least important one is is the chef you've just got to get from like a conduit almost you've got yeah exactly you're the conduit you're just you're the person that like you make you get that stuff to this person and like yeah you you know you make you do your bit you put your thing on it in in in the end but like what what that consumer has is like that's that's the best thing like if if what you do it's not about what you do it's like about what they want do you see what i mean yes yes for like and i think it's just like is this fucking delicious yeah like it's a fine balance as well because like we talk you know we're talking about like hat like an expression of of self which is a great term that you kept saying but like uh you have to do that like without ego without arrogance do you know what i mean like you you you you do it but in a way that like so this you know what i mean like it's attention so it's like and i love this again sort of aristotle golden mean like yeah it's basically two opposing things yeah and so it's again expression of self putting your you know your soul in your work yeah but then also the consumers got to fucking love it right yeah exactly the goal as our soul says the goal i mean you got to try and find that thread through the middle and sometimes it'll be more this way it must be more that way but i think what will store was saying to me with these because he's you know he's done a lot of research into this it's like the base got to a situation where people trying to impress their peers and not yeah oh like you can i think you can always see like a chef that's like cooking for the books do you know what i mean they're cooking to impress michelin they're cooking to impress other chefs they're cooking to fucking like massage their own ego do you know what i mean like it's it's all you can see that as opposed to someone who's like cooking for like the love of it like the love of the craft for for like you know just being it's almost like uh you know when you kind of forget all of that other bullshit and you're just like what is it like what are you putting on the plate and and why and like why is that good like you know it's the why yeah exactly like why why why why is why are you doing that like are you are you doing like and i see it a lot with like young head chefs you know someone's got it and they're like want to just fucking put all of the processes they know onto one plate to like show off of like how great they are and like once you forget about that and once you like are comfortable and like you know comfortable in your own skin sort of thing and you just go like this is this is me and like this is what I this is what is is beautiful and like it can just be a piece of fish with a amazing sauce do you know what I mean we had it with Ireland actually like uh with the lads that are there like the chefs there like because doing it with me and brad who's obviously like a mission star chef as well like the lads were like really trying to like impress us um and you know the phenomenal chefs like that unbelievable chefs and the dishes they were putting up we were like you're you're really like missing the point here let's just let's take it back like you're trying to do too much do you know what i mean like you're you're you're like you're trying to trying to do too much and what we need is like bring it back and just do something super simple delicious like buy this unbelievable produce and just get that on a plate and like let that do all the talking you know there's it there's no there's no like drop off in technicality you know what i mean like to make to make like uh an unbelievable source takes so much skill and craft it's actually harder to do that and like we like i i've like said before like that's like a like a fuck like a fuck you plate do you know what i mean where it's like tell you you i'm gonna put this thing on a plate this this piece of fish or this piece of whatever yeah and this sauce and i'll pass it to you i could sit there and watch me and you tell me one single thing that's wrong with it like that is so much harder that's so much harder to do than like where people have like 20 different things they've got these fucking little curls of cucumbers on bollocks and you're like that there's so much to hide behind do you know what i mean whereas if you do that and like you push the you you could sit i could i could do that and sit here in front of you now i'm past you a plate like that and you you go you can't tell me one thing that's wrong with it and that as a chef is so much harder than to fuck around with all this frilly bollocks what's the yes again i keep talking about john hegety because he's like he's been it was in terms of creative it's quite great i'm both conversations back to back because he's one of my creative idols but he was saying you know creativity is about refine remove yeah yeah and you basically refine remove until it's a fuck you play yeah yeah exactly love that mate honestly like yeah you play at the um at the capital uh that probably the the cuttlefish i would say is very much that like you know it's so it's just two things it's like it's the cuttlefish pasta with a cheese sauce that's it yeah yeah yeah do you know what i mean but it's like it's like yeah that yeah exactly yeah do you know what i mean a few more things mate we'll wrap this up um one thing i wanted so um again this this business that helps with the uh that i interviewed again the other week talks about uh it's dynamic pricing for restaurants basically yeah so it's on a monday say a lot of restaurants shut monday tuesday wednesday yeah the whole thing and he's Marco Pierre White's the co-founder of it.

1:55:29Yeah. And it's like, you know, so you could go on this app and it's massive in Melbourne and Australia. It's, you know, you could drop your prices for a bit. So you're still getting revenue in through the door. And it's doing really, really well. And they're just launching in London. But what Marco was saying to Pan, who's the co-founder, is if you, a table is not a table. Hospitality is, you can't, a one star, or sorry, a Michelin star restaurant table is not the same as fucking Nando's table in terms of like the, if you lose a table. Yeah. Basically he says, if you lose a table or someone doesn't rock up in a Michelin star restaurant, it's, you're kind of fucked because it's, it's the, the pain and the loss on that is compared to any other thing in hospitality.

1:56:12And he was saying, I think I listened to a podcast of this bloke in Ireland saying like the, the margin on a Michelin star restaurant is like so minuscule. Yeah. What talks me through that? It is. I mean, like, obviously it's like, it's a really really tough time yeah hospitality you know we see great places closing down all the time um and it's those things it's the it's the margins are so tight um i've just got tighter you know energy prices are through the roof rent goes up and up i mean rent you know rent rates is silly stuff um you know it's hard it's hard to it's hard to recruit staff need more money and And all of it goes down to like, not to make it like a political thing, but it's, it's down to like governments and how they look after us.

1:57:01Not just, not just hospitality, but everyone, right? Everyone's, you know, your, your, your, you pay, your energy bills have gone up, what you pay for food has gone up. And so that can't, that doesn't, that gets passed on in the wrong way to restaurants. Like if you, if your skin was the first thing you do, you don't go out to eat anymore. Right. And I don't blame anyone for not going out to restaurants as much as they do, because we're all fucking skin do you know what i mean like but then everything on our end has gone up as well so like we have to put our restaurants have to put the prices up because what we buy has gone up do you know what i mean so like a piece of fish that used to you know we used to buy mac or fucking whatever it was four quid a kilo and now it's like 12 quid a kilo do you know what i mean or whatever it is um like on today's market and but that can't get passed on to the consumer as quickly as the prices go up for the the operator right so like fish and chips is a great example right everyone always goes oh fish and chips is like 20 quid now yeah but like a piece a piece of cod costs x the potatoes cost y but like all of these things go up but like people don't expect the price to go up do you know what i mean it's it's a hard one for that so what i always think is like i mean the dynamic price of things interesting i don't i've not heard that before but what i think with anything is you have to be value for money and what i mean by that it's not you don't have to be cheap you don't have to like knock things out at like cut price but you have to make sure that what you do is worth it right if someone goes out and buys a fucking like some cheap top from from a shop like and it is cheap or whatever but then like stitching shit or like it looks but then if you go out and buy like a nice like big brand thing or designer thing yeah it's more expensive but you wear it yeah do you know what i mean like so if you go out for a meal it's like you shouldn't really not no sorry i know i know exactly this is it's like you you shouldn't or you shouldn't care what the bill is at the end and i don't mean that in the way of like you know pissing money up the wall it's like it's a life-changing experience yeah well not even more life-changing but if you're aiming for that then the money's not a problem yeah even further down even further down the scale like if you go to like what we're talking about oh so devonshire and that and you you know you have you have like this really really simple but like beautiful meal you shouldn't think of like it should be the same do you know what i mean like if you go to inner sea or you go to devonshire you go to or you go to nando's those things like you you see the the relative value for money in all of them because they are what you your they meet your expectations in the right way meet or exceed do you know what i mean so i don't think i don't think people need to be like cheap no one needs to be knocking out like oh these cut price deals or whatever and actually i think sometimes people see through that and it's almost like off-putting so it's like also so for example right so say i love the analogy or the parallel industry in terms of buying darms right clothes yeah right so it's like if you go and buy go into sort of into wherever like i don't know it was uh ralph loren right in fact yeah and someone goes into ralph loren and they want to get a shirt for a wedding or something like that right and they go in into oxford street they get it and it's the experience is delicious and they feel someone's there been like you know banging yeah exact same shirt in fucking tk max it's got a red thing on it saying you know 40 quid off yeah yeah you're getting the same thing yeah yeah experience because it's discounted like it's the perceived value is not the same thing yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah it's like you know i've had others i've had bad meals in very good restaurants do you know i mean or or or like um like very very good reputation yeah restaurants or like high-end restaurants and it's because you go in there with an expectation and if that isn't met that's where that's where you feel cheated do you know what i mean that's where you're not cheated maybe that's strong but do you know what i mean that's where you that's where you don't see it and that's what i think well happiness is expectations more than reality exactly yeah so what what it what it needs to be is like

2:01:54you need to come away from there going and you know um will and jack at uh row they were saying well actually like we don't we don't want to put the prices down we want to like just sell more get you know sell more stuff and get more people through the door because that will solve the problem so they i think they were saying canary wharf it's interesting because actually nowadays because the whole idea of the long lunch you know the ad ad of business guys is gone because no one's like loads of people don't drink in the week and it's like we'll have a lucky saint and then fuck off yeah so actually it's quite hard so they're doing this like three o 'clock i think it's like uh cocktails and chicken it's not that name but it's like other ways to get people in like what's some of the creative ways you're thinking about actually getting punters in through the door or basically staying in the game do you know what i mean yeah i think there's like different things in different places so like pearly queen we started doing like um like oyster kind of happy hour i think sort of thing so like through the afternoon like we'll do um uh like that half dozen oysters and a glass of wine sort of thing it's like i like a package thing to kind of get people to come in in those times um but yeah i mean just just just listening to guests and what they want you know i mean and like how they want to how they want to spend money i think you know with the capital when we first opened it i was going to do you know i kind of like i was trying to go the wrong way i think like this was before we opened i was like right we're gonna do like a 15 course taster and it's gonna be fucking we're gonna do this and this is it's gonna be super rigid and as we were getting closer to the open i was like no like it can't be that like people some people want that but some people want five courses they want three courses they want all down a cart you know what i mean so yes that i think that like be making sure you're like open to what empathy experience yeah exactly yes yeah like first and like you know you could have said oh fuck this seven calls yeah it's an absolute contradiction to you know what i was saying before and i was like i think because like i had this kind of you know this kind of this this i was like right i'm going to the capsule it's going to be great like it's fucking it's you know it's my name above the door i'm going to do all this and then i was like do you know actually like that's completely the wrong outlook and it was it was it's in contradiction to how how i am anyway so i was like yeah we opened i was like no we're gonna do we we will have that experience we'll have like a a 10 course menu for people that want that but also like some people don't want to spend all that money because they but they still want a great experience so they're going to come and do the five course or a seven course or a three course do you know what i mean or we're going to order a cut do you know what i mean so i think just just being receptive to like what people want as an experience is really important yes yeah yeah almost empathy in the business of happiness yeah yeah yeah literally that like yeah making it making it like um accessible i mean i kind of i disagree with that term in a way but like you know something that that people can navigate their own experience egalitarian is is what the devonshire use and so uh skidders having lunch with ash and osh and they were saying you know we want the chairman and binman is their rule yeah yeah so i want a binman and a chairman to be able to sit next to each other and have a pint of guinness and it be affordable get a bacon sarnie for seven quid yeah scotch head for whatever that is but also you can go upstairs and buy fucking two two grand wine yeah i think it's having that empathy and also awareness um what's the two more things so what are your thoughts on critics and them not necessarily getting your creative expression of self i like critics man i think i i don't there's there's uh i i rate them like every critic i've ever met i got on with i think they're good people like the other thing now is obviously having been in in in the restaurant scene for a bit is uh i quite like that i can just like chat to you know at a table we don't have to pretend that it's that we don't know who they are or anything do you know what i mean okay yeah just talk to them and like treat them like normal guests and the thing is right you know i've i've had the majority of reviews that i've had like i think i've had one bad one but like um the thing was i remember that that this this this critic being in and you know we gave them the experience that we that we give do you know what i mean like we we we did our thing and at the end of the day restaurants or any form of like creativity is is subjective right so so like you know you can watch i can me and you can sit and watch a film and i'm like figure shit but you love it yeah but that that doesn't mean it's a bad film do you know what i mean that's that's just like so as long as you do what you like again going back to naif i remember um there was one like he we were talking about like michelin inspectors and i was like oh god like you i wish i knew like they were coming and he was like yeah but what do you like what would you do realistically so say you're you're there right you've set up for lunch like it's 12 o 'clock first table comes in a fucking geezer walks in he's got the michelin suit on unzips it gets out yeah yeah goes to this stuff and he's like just so you know i am a michelin inspector and i am reviewing this what are you gonna do you're going to rewrite the menu you're going to like what what can you realistically do if you're good enough you're good enough and just just deliver what you deliver do you know what i mean it's the same it's the same with critics and like you know you you're going to get you so it's you're going to get people that don't um that aren't into what you do for whatever reason because it's a subjective thing and people are different yeah and like as long as you know you've done what you can yeah and that's that's it but also it's and it's just doing it because i mean obviously with with youtube even with this it's like now people are like yeah you say like too much or like you're this this kid hasn't taken he's on coke or he's taken it hasn't taken his adhd you know i mean it's like when i started doing this you sort of take it really personally oh shit i need to stop all this stuff yeah not four or five years in i'm like i don't give a fuck you either like it do you find that do you like find out with yourself that you're constantly like looking at those things i don't look anymore really no no so i don't i don't um i basically have a an audience of like five people who are like my mates okay and that's the and if they rate it or they say you should change this or change that i listen to them and it's almost like who is it the again i keep talking about john hegan's but he was like the best book is always ever written just for one person yeah yeah and it's ultimately yourself and i think if you create like i ask the questions i'll say is what i want to ask you you know it's not like i'm going to go into a forum like what do you think we should you know and i think you can get into that but it's um it's interesting how do you think critics i actually make things better like oh like they raise they raise the floor you know like for me like i've i like i've read views um of of what we do and uh i had one recently that was like it was a it was a good review there was a couple of things that they said when i first read it i was like well they're wrong i disagree with that completely um like things like and i was adamant i was like this you know that that i disagree with it like that's just their taste and i was like do you know what like i'm gonna go back to it i'm gonna revisit it try it and that i agreed with them in the end i was like you know i think you you do without sort of taking you know what's the there's a saying it's like a camel is is is just a horse by committee so do you know what I mean if there's like if someone was trying to make a horse a committee they were like well it has this it has this it comes out of something completely different so I think if you if you like listen to all of the noise like if you like with with the podcast you're saying about like all the reviews if you took every single one of those and like listen to all of those things it would be a fucking mess do you know what I mean so like so you you have to be so There's a quote I love, which is with feedback, you have to hear all feedback.

2:10:06Yeah. So you only listen to the bits you listen to. Yes, that's so good. That's what I'm trying to get at. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, so this is true. So it's, if I, most of these are just fucking gimps on YouTube. I'm like, what are you doing with your life, mate? Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, that's just noise. There's a difference between meaning and noise. Yeah, definitely. And I think like, sometimes it can be really positive and, you know, meaning. Yeah, definitely. But if you do just noise, it just smothers your own expression of creative. Exactly. But it's like you have to have the humility to sort of – you can't have this like superiority complex with it.

2:10:47You know, it's always worth like say hearing things, but like, you know, at the end of the day, like maybe you do feel that you're right and like you can't you can't like change everything to kind of that you hear but like I remember reading it and I was like right well we'll go back to that let's let's go back and look at it and I was like do you know what there's an element of truth in that and now it was that it was actually with the crab custard so we did it with when we first did it we did it with um grapefruit on it and I loved it when I first had it and then after uh read this review I was like do you know what I kind of I kind of agree I think like it was we did like some frozen pink grapefruit on it and I was like do you know what actually let's let's look at it again and now we do the one with the tomatoes and it's a better dish for it do you know what I mean so it's like we didn't rip the whole thing up and start again but those little those little elements I think just having that like that that humility and that lack of ego when you approach things and like you know maybe when we tasted it I'd go actually do you know what I think that's delicious and that would have been fine as well but i think i i think like critics and reviews like it raises the floor yeah it raises raises the floor and pushes the ceiling ultimately definitely um what are some other like fish restaurants that you think are really places in london that do really good fish uh i mean bentley's is unbelievable like i get talking about solo dining i mean fucking hell like is there anything better than going there and sitting on that terriers and eating it's unbelievable bentley's is great um behind so andy bayner's place in hackney that's like a tasty menu that's very much fish lead that's unbelievable um i mean there's like classics like scots and she he's very very good what about sort of like more like kind of cheaper and what i accept um right brothers like very very good down in borough like that's great Oyster Man in where's that one Covent Garden yeah very very good there's loads of great ones I mean the best fish restaurants are always the ones that don't fuck about a bit as much don't fuck about apart from like what I do because we do a bit of it and the final question mate is a big question but I asked this to all the guests but what's one truth you believe that most chefs would disagree with you on um one truth that I believe that most chefs disagree with me on god god i don't know you know that's uh i mean maybe just maybe just that thing of like how the chef is like the least important part i think that i think that is yeah yeah i think all the all that the food sorry is the least important part i mean i i really really believe that i think that everything else is so much more important in a great restaurant than the food i know it's when you get the food right that's takes it from there to there yeah i mean that's the exact answer that michelle rue said really yeah yeah yeah mate absolute pleasure absolute joy mate thank you so much thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you like that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much