The Most Resilient Man I’ve Ever Met (+ how to smash through your obstacles)

44:10So which meant he was polygamy by, you know, polygamists by Kauricho. So he had had, you know, 12 kids or 13 kids. Busy boy. Yeah, he was a busy boy, yeah. He's talking about it. But he had this thing where you could tell you all his wives. In a very deeper way. that I swear to God, I don't know whether I can truly sit there and if I had multiple wives, whatever, you know, whether I can really share as deeply his life commitment to these wives as he did. And so that's what I was, you know, sharing about, you know, how he taught me about love. But then his son, where he became my foster family, he...

45:21Sorry, so the 83-year-old... Yeah, was the father of my foster family. Okay, okay, I'm with you. So then the foster family you go to is his son. Yeah, his son. So that's why I said, when if I don't come back, you know, you go there. And he'd pass away? No, no, he's there. He's still there. He's actually, yeah, he's still there. And every time when I go to... no but because because the guy didn't come why why why died why why died and that's that and then that's why you went because he was waiting for three weeks he passed away he passed away and he said to me but almost he knew but of course he wasn't in pain he wasn't sick because he said to me was it do it always rush no what is it do it if you want when you grow whatever you do yes don't rush but don't delay.

46:07Yes, so good. Don't rush but don't delay. Okay, then you go back, you go to his son's... To his son and his son, they welcomed me. His son had 12, 10 kids of his own no 12 kids of his own

46:31incredible hard working man what did he do? he was an insurance broker are you in the village at this point? no I'm still I'm far away from the original village where I was but we are now like in a semi village but he used to work so you know he was educated he had gone to the city he had become um he had become an insurance broker but he was a farmer that's his now he's you know he had transitioned and went back to his farm he had an eight acre farm so he was you know in the standard of uganda he was a wealth man he was doing very well but also he you you need you needed that to support the level of the kids that he had, but also the emphasis in education he had for his kids.

47:27So I stayed there. And it was a little challenging in a lot of ways. Challenging. Challenging in a way that, you know, you always felt you were not part, you know. You kind of felt it. and he knew the two of us were feeling that because the grown kids were making sure that we know. How? By verbalizing it. Saying you're not part of the family. Yeah, like this kind of thing, you know. If you've done something, you know, one of the kids could come and say, the elders or the kids could really come and be as mean, like really spamming and say like, you know. I mean, one statement was like, you know, Look, what do you expect?

48:18We know your parents, we'd never killed your parents. And so he was told about it. And it wasn't nice. But he knew all he had had that that's happened. And he asked me to go for a walk. That's what I do. By the way, I go for a walk to talk to people. I like going on walks. So he took me to this walk and he said to me, one thing I don't doubt about you, you will be fine in life. And I want you to know that sometimes people won't treat you exactly as your mother, father would. but I know you're strong, and I want you to know this is a transition.

49:23Do not allow anyone to break you. So that conversation, everyone, because whenever he asked to go for a walk in the farm, because he had this farm, you know, you're going into this bush to walk, you were in trouble. So everyone knew that I'm in trouble. I must have done something wrong. So but when I came back everyone said what happened I never said anything I never shared. But his that advice that he gave me that feedback that that sort of talk or statements he uttered out for me, they became another armour in my repertoire of life. So then he says, no, don't ever let anyone break you. What's the next steps for you?

50:31Because you came to London at 18. Yeah. So you're 14, 15. I have. What's the next step? I moved out of the family and I moved to go to a secondary school. I told my foster family that I was going to go be closer to school now near town in the town. And I went and, you know, asked someone who had, like, houses if I can rent, like, live there. I didn't have much. I didn't have resources. I was working. I've always worked. Always. Always worked to earn money to study. You know, I'd never been there to just do school. so I went and asked one of the people who had a house you would be like a bed seat here and I observed that all these renters had to fetch water, they were fetching water from a distance and I didn't have money, so I said to the landlord is it possible, would it be possible for me to you know to fetch water for these people and when they pay me how far was the water?

52:09the water was a kilometer and a half where was that? a well like a underground well and so it's a kilometer or so and more than a kilometer but around there anyway I asked this guy and this guy says yeah because you shouldn't where your parents are because I told him where my parents are, I was very private about the death of my parents because it was a laughing it had become, I became very sensitive about it because it became like an identity thing oh you are an orphan, oh my god you know, so I really didn't talk about it, so I said yeah they're not here then, you know so he asked, he said I went to each of these renters and I went in the same area where there's other kids and I asked the renters to buy jelly cans.

53:12What sorry? Jelly cans, you know jelly cans? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cans. And I told these renters if they, you know, whatever will bring water every day, whatever they want. and i figured that actually i could uh bring you know get other young people like me to come and bring this water so it becomes you know and i give them some of the money and i take some of the money but also that meant i could go to school also meant i could do bring all you know almost fulfill the orders of these water orders uh faster uh in very unprecedented manner so i got another three boys who became my support. So I say, okay, it's 100 shillings.

54:05Start a business then, basically. Yeah, without, I mean, I don't think I ever look at it as a business, but if, you know, this hour I said, okay, the jelly can is 100 shillings. You bring a jelly can, I give you 50 shillings. you know um how about that and and if you know and they're like oh you know yeah we know we'll i'll be good we're gonna make some money um but then for the first time these kids these people i never really thought about doing you know doing doing this like so now all of a sudden I'm getting my rent paid I'm going to school and I'm doing this and we I done that for until I was like in year 9 year 8 year 8 what's that it's like we use the how old do you be 16 turning 16 okay cool yeah most of 2016 yeah um so i went and started really pushing and so i decided that you know what we need to do more because now i had seen and now the school so i went to school but done this pretty much the same school needs water wouldn't come from somewhere school needs slashing like cleaning the compound would then figure out how much does it cost school can I study and I don't pay hey it's last the school um so that that's something that um that's how really kind of um you know um is this school in in more of a city these are more on the sub what what do we call I would call the capter urban camps a what like a peri urban like almost not like proper town, proper city.

56:04Like a suburb. Like a suburb. And what's the main city? It's capital. My town. I'm a village boy, you know. Yeah, I'm just trying to work out how you've got to this. In my head, I've got this super rural middle of nowhere place where you were born. And now I'm starting. And now you're like more I'm starting towards it. And the main city's called the capital city. The capital city is Kampala. But I spent, you know, before coming to this country, had been to Kampala maybe 10 times. I had not been to the city big time. But my town is called Mityana. So this is, you know, for a village boy. I mean, this is, you know.

56:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in the big smoke this time. Yeah, it's a big smoke. Yeah, yeah. And in that big smoke, I'd done quite a lot of things that, you know, you know, a lot of things, you know. I bought, you know, I was buying cows and selling cows, you know. Cows? Yeah. Now I was going to, how we now slashing the, you know, the schools, you know, almost like learn more, you know, mowing the lawn for the school and get, you know, getting part of the school, what they would have spent for the school, then they chop it off my money, my school fees. And then I got this thing and that's where, you know, driving towards how I end up in England.

57:27And I made this, you know, I was at the sports day for entire schools in this town. And I made this American missionary. What's a missionary? A missionary, like a mission, like a Christian missionary. Yeah. like a Baptist Christian missionary who had come in Uganda to work with the churches. And I met him and... What was his name? His name was Don. Don? Don, yeah. Don? Oh my God, this story is fucking wild. You've got YY and Don. Hey, you can't even write this. Actually, it's a shout out to Don Cribs. Don Cribbs That's such a G name That's such a G name YY and Don Cribbs Superman And what did he look like He was white Texan Tall, short You smell your height probably So half pint

58:44That's funny that's funny I like my self-deprecation but anyway this guy it was starting to recede his airline yes which how old was he when you met him I think he was 38 38 yeah I think he was 38 okay he was young he was you know yeah yeah I'm just trying to get you know but he was super Texan you know in his accent and stuff well hey y 'all like that yeah they were super super Texan in his family so anyway I meet him at this thing and he was standing there by himself. And, you know, I asked him, and I said, because no one was talking to the gizzer, no one was talking to the guy. So my natural way in this town, when I moved to this town, I felt like an outsider.

59:36And I almost paid attention so much to everyone who sounded not from that town. So I always wanted to find what their story, why are they there is there any way i can help and that will link up this will link up to to how i end up coming you know uh and then this um and then don uh don cribs uh i meet him and and we you know i said hey how are you doing and he finds me quite interesting because i told him my name is wycliffe and he goes what wycliffe i said yeah do you know wycliffe is a bible translator in my country and I said no I didn't know so Wycliffe's Bible Trends yeah so Wycliffe here you have Wycliffe of Dover right or like you know you have the Wycliffe the detective Wycliffe of Dover I was thinking fucking hell where's he going with this I was like there's some links but linking your name to the Wycliffe's fucking Dover son oh that's so jokes So what does Wycliffe mean in Texas then?

1:00:45No, it's a Bible translation society. So this guy by Wycliffe translated the Bible, John Wycliffe. But that's actually part of how I'm Wycliffe because my grandfather was John and he wanted really to be, you know, and then when I called his son John, my father, and I called me Wycliffe. Anyway, that's the Bible connection. And actually, I didn't know that story about the Bible translator and all this kind of thing. And that is a big thing in America, was like a bigger thing. So anyway, I'm fascinated. I said, why do you come? Why are you coming here to do? What do you do? And he tells me that I'm a missionary.

1:01:32I came here to start to help with the Baptist churches and start church plants. I said, hmm, it's interesting. And he says to me, what are you doing this afternoon? I say,

1:01:53nothing but you know what do you want like what you know I say I would like to invite you back to my house I would love to show you to my wife because this sounds very spiritual. Because he said, we prayed before we came, we could find someone who can understand us and really help us. And when I went home and they said, but you understand us without question. You don't even say, huh? What do you say? Somehow, I mean, I never had problems with accents. So I was like... You were speaking English at this point? Yeah. How did you learn English? Through school? No, bro. Through school? No, I have been fascinated by their learning.

1:02:42And, you know, even at my lowest... Well, just to give some context for listeners, we walked into Wycliffe's house today. And I'm thinking, fuck it. Now he starts speaking Romanian. It's absolutely insane, mate. Yeah, it is. But I, so as a child, because we didn't have so much, so if I came to, so people coming from the city, visiting my village, so although we are very poor, doesn't mean that my village was very poor. So these have members of the villages that had families in the city. And whenever they will come, they will come back in the holidays. So the kids are sent in the holiday in the villages to stay with the grandparents and stuff, to experience the village life and this kind of thing.

1:03:27And whenever those kids will come, sometimes they'll come with magazines. I was a sucker for trying to read. I didn't speak English until I was 13. No, I didn't learn English until I was 13. How did you learn it? Just reading? Just reading. I don't think I know English yet. I don't think I am anywhere close to what I should be, but I learned it. I cannot really... But could you get access to films or radio? How did you hear it? I bought myself, as a young person, I bought myself a radio. what are you listening to on the radio it's called BBC World Service yes boy and I know something called VOA Voice of America and these are so while everyone in the village or everyone in the town might have been turning on, tuning on to to the latest you know, show about even it's embarrassing for young person of my age at the time listening to radio by the way but that's the best I could have.

1:04:41But I was very fascinated by what was happening beyond our borders, like beyond Uganda. I was wanting to always see what is it like, you know, what do they talk about? So I was, majority of the English, I've never had a formal class of English. Wow. Wow. You know, even in my, in the second, when you are taught, like, because they are, you know, you know, Uganda education system is by standard, you should be learning English. But when you're in a village school, you don't really, I mean, not much, but even, you know, what it should be, you know, you don't get really formal English, you know, education.

1:05:28Like when I see my kids, what they're learning and stuff, and I compare them to maybe almost the same standard of very high top school in Kampala, in the capital. That's how where you could access that level of education in that kind of way. So, but I was, I'm always, you know, I was fascinated by education. I mean, you can see I have a variety of, I have, I don't have a fixed. you know I read widely you have an eclectic yes I read widely yes you know I read widely I've got that the hard things about hard things about Howes Ben Horowitz yeah yeah it's cool I tried to read that but it was too hard but that's because it's a hard thing about Howes yeah yeah yeah it's a joke yeah I've got that at home I need to read that you should I mean there's a lot of I feel like your book's going to be fucking 10 times better than that, mate, with everything you've been through.

1:06:30Your book will fucking outsell that with everything you've gone through, mate. Yeah, so I think that's... So back to Don Cribs. So Don Cribs tells me something that transformed now this next chapter in the work of story. Don Cribs tells me, we have this idea. After the lunch, after feeding me and stuff, and I said to him, look, I told him, look, I go to school, but listen, I feel you are my responsibility in here I don't know why I say that because why would he be my responsibility I never brought the man from wherever he was but I felt deeply that I had responsibility to him to these people people who were foreign in the town or not from the town always wanted to help so I said to him, look if you ever need help I'm here.

1:07:28I didn't have a mobile at the time. I said to him, look. What year was this, roughly? We're talking 2002? Okay. So I tell him, look, this is what I can do. And he tells me, would you like to be our teacher and translator? Q, Wycliffe Bible, translators in America. So now I've been asked to be this missionary translator for what they do, going to the villages, going to this. So Anenwu and also become our teacher, Luganda teacher. So I started teaching these guys the local language, which is Luganda. I don't have a degree in teaching but these are his words what is fascinating about you, Eiklif, is because we had a professor of linguistics at the university in Kampala where by obligation we have to spend six months learning language but we have learnt more we've learnt more with you than we did in those six months so I start getting paid guess how much money I think $200 a month and I want you to bring context to this because that$200 is more than what a head teacher of a primary school or secondary school was earning at that time so you're absolutely balling understood me mate understatement and you've got your cows and your water coming bro this is where I get really when I get I got lump sum you know you're only dealing lump sums baby what did I do I went I bought some more cows I bought cows now the capital is a bit more now bought some cows remember but this is not a good conversation for vegans, by the way, because we're talking about, you know, slaughtering cows, buying and, you know, selling cows.

1:09:54But it was very, it became, and then I got all this money and I went to the school and asked, you know, my school, if I can pay for a whole year of my tuition. Now you have two things to think now. Is this boy a thief now or what? Like a thief, like where are you getting the money? The expectation is like, where? How much was school year? School year we're paying, oh, it was about 120, 130. And you're making 200 a month? 200. You should have said, man, I'll do it for five years. so so i went and paid and i had him you know one of my my my friend at charis you know he you know had brought him to live with me because his family didn't believe so much in education so i brought him to live with me and another another friend and i went and bought lots so basically these guys now they're living with me and you know i said don't worry about the food just worry about the school so i went and all they had to do is not to worry about the rent because we know i rented this this thing and i bought rice and stuff so because this is like you know um and i bought all the books that i could buy i went all the i bought with that money i bought what books study like study books okay yeah for you for your you know um a you know gcce like this your school books and so i started teaching this american guy and start you know really worked with him and really amazing stuff and then he uh one day you know then i have i met this you know this group of volunteers uh from the uk young young volunteers um you know similar similar ways you know i'm really you know asking them what why what they're up to here what they do and i felt the need to really help them you know don't get ripped off you know you were talking about being in Thailand and you know how the hassle of the big markets it is when you're foreign you don't know whether what to do you know like that kind of thing so you know I became a self appointed handler of everyone who doesn't know my town and and the idea behind that for me I love that self appointed handler that's so good

1:12:24and for me it was the idea because it was the idea of imagine being in a place where you've never been because i had been in in circumstances in situations where i felt i was so out from there you know i wasn't belonging i always had this thing i want to help i want to make you someone feel like you know part of the whole thing and so for me it really that's how um you know it started out anyway these volunteers i became became a big part of what i did because i you know i was you know giving them orientations and even you know um you know telling them you know this is what we do um for example teaching them the culture so if someone you know if you really don't want an opinion don't ask for it for example you know one of the girls you know you know asked me oh do you do you like my top oh changing we're going for a meal or something like my top and characterally and traditionally i mean for me as a ugandan at that time um you know if i didn't really like the top i'll say hi no i don't and i you know had to now because i understood i started learning their character like you know what really like what in their character you know things mean um she was hot super hot that you know that i was i said i don't i don't like it's not it doesn't really suit you i thought that's when you when someone you ask someone that's what we say but no no no no so i realized that in england you know just because you know a lady asks you do like my top and you don't really like it doesn't mean that you have to say and that's i i've learned it the hard way but so i had to teach them you know look you know don't ask if you don't want to you know ask in a different way if you really truly want an opinion um be be ready to get the real opinion if that person has an opinion and so i started supporting these these volunteers and one of the volunteers, you know, we became very close and she introduced me to her parents and this is the journey to come into the UK.

1:14:39You know, her name is Heather. She's a doctor, Dr. Heather Ware. But her father and her mom, so her mom came over and we became like super close and she told them, oh, this Wycliffe is amazing. He's helped us so much. No expectation. Because I never had no expectation. So I was like, you know, so when she came back, she was up in, you know, talking to her. You know, he's super, super amazing. And, you know, he told us he was, he's planning to go study law and stuff. And so, you know, then, you know, when the mother was there, what's the plan? What do you want? Yeah, I want to go. I'm planning to go study law and stuff.

1:15:27That conversation never, you know, it never really, for me, I was like having a conversation. And so when she came back and, you know, they sat down, I think, you know, with my godmother now, but, you know, she wrote me a message and said, you know, we like what you're doing and how you are and what you, you know, your vision of life and what you want to do. if we can help in any way. And if we can help in any way, for me, it meant, yeah, I said, yeah, it's what I want to do. I want to study law. I want to go to law school and become a lawyer. And the reason for becoming a lawyer for me at the time were more personal than I wanted.

1:16:14Because I had heard that prosecutors and lawyers are the ones who can bring a case and help. Because my dad had died in mysterious circumstances. I never forgave. What were the mysterious circumstances? He just died. They said, you know... Is he fighting? Yeah, he was shot, was shot friendly, you know, friendly fire or whatever. Yeah. You know, was shot, you know. So it was, I always felt, yeah, I needed to... Is it sort of, yeah, justice? Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. And that's why it really drove me so deep into law. And I don't know, you know, I went really deep Anyway, this family really asked me a question.

1:16:57We have, I think at the time it was 3 ,000 pounds for your education so you can go and fulfill your future dream. and Scott was my godfather now says to me if you really want to do engineering he's an engineer that would be you wait sorry where the fuck does Scott come from Scott is the Heather oh sorry so Scott's Heather's I thought it was Scott bloke with you He's Heather's dad. So this family really makes me up. Now this is how really the journey from being in Mityana and coming, he suggests whether I want to do engineering and stuff. and I say, you know, last time I did maths, I mean, I never had a formal reading maths and stuff and I don't think I was, you know, I was great at it but I never really had proper, you know, maths teaching.

1:18:13Anyway, I said, no, I think I want, you know, I want to do law and stuff and I said, oh yeah, if you get the grades, you can go to, but this is how much we have. What do you want to do? and I said I wanted to come here to do that degree here and hopefully become a lawyer. And that's how, I mean, they say, no, but we don't have a lot of money. What are you going to do? So we have to apply for bursar grants and stuff like that, but also work part-time to find the other gap that they can do. But that money, that if I stayed in Uganda with that money, I would have been a don. Not a crib, but... Oh, that's so good.

1:19:07Yeah, because the cribs are the gangs, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The cribs is the name. So the don, and then the cribs is the name of a gang in LA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's such, again, another whip. Those are cribs. I think they're cribs. Cribs? Yeah, I think they're cribs. Is he cribs or cribs? Cribs Cribs Sorry They are Crips And then this is Cribs Crips is the gang in LA Crip With a P With a P I think yeah Oh well anyway So you're no longer a Don But So you know Mate let's I'm loving this I need to go to the toilet We'll have a little half time And then we'll come back in No worries If you're a challenger brand That's absolutely killing it in D2C But you're struggling to crack retail Then you've got to listen to this Maybe you've got an Ocado listing maybe you've got a Whole Foods listing, maybe you're absolutely killing it in Selfridges, maybe you're absolutely killing it in your farm shop and your indies, but my friends, making the leap, crossing El Chasum, crossing El Rubicon to grocery retail is not easy, it's the Champions League of FMCG, it's super hard, it means playing at a higher level and that's where some of you amazing brands sadly stumble.

1:20:18Look, retailers want stories backed by data, not dreams and a pretty pitch deck. And let's be real, supermarkets are not just going to magically make a space for you and your little brand. They need data. Something's got to go for you to get in, for you to get on shelf. And that is why I've got to tell you about Northstar. They are the team that's helping purpose-led FMCG brands go from gut instinct dreams to unstoppable pitch decks that actually unlock retailers. Northstar are not like another data company that force feed you data like Fua that act like a NASA space mission. It's super, super simple to use.

1:20:55Their team are amazing and they actually get the challenger mindset. Northstar are your shortcut to smarter decisions, stronger pitches and investor confidence all built specifically for challenger brands like yours. You don't need a massive sales team. You need Northstar. Link in the show notes. Click that link and you'll be able to book a free demo with Northstar. Highly, highly recommend that. And thank me later. When people say, you know, for me, I have done, I would say, business all my life. At eight years old, when I went into coffee, for me, when I started camping, that's almost like a pitch.

1:21:36Because I had to do a pitch to allow these people to give me an opportunity. community that became a deja vu later on in my life when properly building Brutrako now into what it is um where I went to five retailers that I pitched and you know three of them gave me an indication and that no one in that room knows why I cry when sometimes I you know I talk about these things but because each experience is more deeper really it's it's beyond what you see on the surface for example when these three retailers showed an interest in what i'm trying to do i felt transported me back as an eight year old asking five farmers and three of them said yeah, that's fine, we can come.

1:22:28And that is a connected thing that any coffee brand owner or startup will never experience. Because it didn't speak to me only because of that, because now you have that kind of thing. But it spoke to me because of that previous coffee experience. But in different contexts, in different environment, different place, but deja vu, same way. I had five people, spoke with them. Three of them said, yeah, let's see what we can do. And so that's something that is very interesting. But I'm happy for, you know, there is so much. And I like how, you know, how this conversation was going and how we had reached, I think, where I'm really sharing about now going to university and these people are.

1:23:27Yes, tell me about that. We're rolling now as well. Yeah, yeah. The way... Which uni did you go to? I went to University of London, you know, here in London. And I don't know whether you know what I studied. No. I studied something called law. So I studied law. And the reason I laugh is because all throughout my relationship with my wife, my girlfriend, who was my girlfriend at the time and my wife now, when I came and told her that I don't want to pursue a career in law anymore. and I want to concentrate on on the things that I'm doing in Uganda especially in the coffee growing and stuff and she said to me of course as with any well-meaning wife or partner or girlfriend at the time I'll open the door she thank you so much cheers

1:24:43it may be too hot bro I've got lips to steal mate yeah but no sugar no milk no fucking around mate yeah so she says to me and this to out there to any of you anyone who has who has dreams and ambitions. Sometimes the first people you need to convince are the people that are closest to you, but also they are the hardest to convince. Anyway, I tell her and she said to me, darling, I think, are you sure? I said, yeah, I think I feel like the more, you know, I don't want to lose what I feel like is my calling because the more I get into deeper into the London lifestyle, in the corporate lifestyle, I feel like I'm losing something.

1:25:36and I really truly don't see the path. This is when you were at uni. Yeah, now I've finished uni. This conversation is really kind of, you know, finished uni. I really kind of took you through that very, very fast. But this is after uni. Yeah, and what are you working at Nando's at this point? At this point, actually, this conversation now, we're actually having hours at Nestle. I've just finished uni. So after uni, I went to work for Nestle. I worked for Nestle doing legal, paralegal work and this kind of work with the legal team and really look at documentations and stuff like that. What happened after that experience?

1:26:26and I come back and talk to my wife and I say to her I want to truly do things back on the ground things that are going to be transformational for lives, for many lives and one of those includes coffee growing and this was her reaction I thought I was marrying a lawyer but I'm going to end up marrying a

1:27:00you should have said you're marrying the self-proclaimed don no she said i thought i was marrying a lawyer but you know looks like i'm ending up um you know being married to a farmer and that has so many um things to me because i laughed at the time but i thought about it but then also i had this thing what sometimes in life there are things that traps us in not pursuing what we want to pursue because they mean so much you know nice nice tie nice you know one of the hardest things is getting out of the comfortable path and going on the harder path and that was my one of my worries is that it was that you know if i continue this path and um you know maybe a bigger breakthrough comes and then you know i didn't i i won't be able to do to push so much of what I'm pushing.

1:27:50But so while doing uni, I still, you know, I worked for Nando's. I was working for Nando's, but also I was doing, I think, we call it clucking. So clucking is when you go to the court or courts of law. I think they're like clucking as in like Nando's chicken. Well, because of that. Is it called clucking as in like? No, a court clerk. A clerking. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I thought you were going around like as a master. No, no, no, no, no. in the courts of law. This is a time when my Ugandan accent comes in, by the way. But I was doing, you know, we call them paraligos. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:28:27So I was doing, you know, doing that for a couple of firms that were paying me because when you do that as an international student, it allows you to, it allows you to, it doesn't contribute towards your 21 hours you're allowed to work as an international student yeah so nando's was my 21 hours and clark you know working as a paralegal in these law firms and going to a high court you know high court um you know to do to help with you know court cases and stuff i was my almost because it's part of what i was studying so that was not doesn't count but the reason I'm bringing that up is to afford because now I just want you to imagine how transformative that experience me um sitting alongside you know being in this in this kind of place um every time when you close your eyes you remember your village and you remember the I never had like I mean we had a candle we had to eat before seven because after it's dark and you sleep at eight, you know, because you can't keep the candle for so long, all that kind of thing.

1:29:50And here I was sometimes feeling in a big smoke, big London, in a high court on one, you know, in some of these times, you know, showing up in places that have, You cannot imagine. But here's the funny part. Each of these experiences, I had seen them as a child.

1:30:25It is one of the strangest gifts I have, which is the ability to see things almost as though they are real talk to me more about that

1:30:50I had never been to London

1:30:55I had never if you found me I would never say you know, my dream is to go to London. But I had seen, but I was imagining myself so much in these foreign lands doing almost like in this position, like doing this kind of thing, not intentionally. But so if you asked me, even when I didn't have money for food and you asked me what I'm going to, I would have told you I'm gonna go to university i have no by the way i don't have even money to buy shoes i'm a man walking barefoot i'm a guy you know until i was 14 uh or meeting dawn for that matter i had never had a second pair of shoes I had one trousers, one for going to school, and another one for just living.

1:32:00But at the same time, I could have, you could have really met me and you would have never known because I've never been sad. You know, I have been, if there's one thing that is for me, is reframing. I mean, even when using this word, I feel like, oh, reframing. I mean, that's not how I would have said it back home. Because I became almost a go-to to a lot of fair young people. Because I've never been a child. Therefore, I became an adult very early on. So the problems of kids, I would see them from a prism of a parent as a child. So a child comes crying, saying this or my dad did this and this.

1:33:05I would give them a lecture. and how, you know, if they'd done this, if they'd done, to go back and apologize, but, you know, knowing that this could... And a lot of... In all my secondary school, and including university life, I was almost like a life coach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that gave me a lot of experiences and, you know, lessons and connections and contacts and in a way that it built me my lack of being a child or ever being a child built me in a different way in the words of my kids this language these kids they say you're built different and I think I was built different because

1:34:06Because being in touch with that side of things, I reframed my suffering. As a person, whether I was in London or whether I was in Uganda, whether I was in a village, you will never find me sitting there crying and complaining, saying that it's impossible, I'm dead. or they are words that I actually, I have just learned to them in the last five years. For example, you know, I have always looked at life as a no limit life. Of course, after COVID and after a lot of things happening, and as I grow, I have found myself almost starting doubting sometimes and this is a new phenomenon for me and I think it's you know if I'm not a psychologist or something but it is probably is a result of some you know being surrounded by some of these things and you know just start hearing so much but I started being doubtful something that you know What were your doubts?

1:35:22No doubts like you know

1:35:29I'll use this as how doubtful it starts kicking in when I met my wife I took her and we were dating and stuff and I told her these are the things before I'm a thotter these are the things I want to do and stuff like that I said do you know the statistics shows that you can't buy a house in this country you know, below 30, like I've been age 35. And I said to her, but I've never been in statistics because by definition, being born in the middle of the world and being so sick and being born premature, statistically, I had a 27 % chance of surviving. and therefore if I only looked at statistics then it won't do and the reason I'm bringing that is I reframed for example, so I took her to Isdalic, so we're living now in Stratum and I took her to Isdalic and I told her I mean nowadays I've found this thing called I've found something called manifestation, like learning but I thought this is a life, okay, so I took her to Isdalic and I said I'm going to buy you know we'll buy a house and before i'm third and stuff this is what we're gonna do um and her reaction which i think is a normal reaction said why cliff you have no savings you have nothing you have no money like what are you talking about and i had never doubted that i'll be able to do that.

1:37:11And now I found myself in the last couple of years or three years or so, where I think about, I know this is possible and I know I can feel it. It's possible. But then I started feeling like, and I default and say, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe they're right. Like if I spoke to some people i said no i don't think this i maybe i did i started to to believe that self-talk i mean that's something that if i had those thoughts i've had in the last three years or developed in the last three years which now i'm really fighting to to get rid of yes it's interesting yeah yeah because i mean i doubt myself all the time but i think if you just take action it just eventually shit fucks off, you know?

1:38:06So it's like, well, I don't care what I'm feeling like. Like, I'm just going to keep doing it. Yeah. And if you just keep doing it, like, eventually that voice will go. But I think it's when you start to listen to it. Because you can't outthink your thoughts. No. Who did someone say? It's like, I think someone said, trying to outthink your thoughts, it was Chris Williamson, is like sniffing cocaine to get rid of cocaine. Do you know what I mean? That's that though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's like, it's like, it's like you can't. I don't fight it. Yeah, because I mean, I had this yesterday with a podcast we did, you know, and I was like just doubting myself the whole time.

1:38:41I was like, this is going to go bad. And like, this isn't any good. And also my critic, my inner critic is like, I'll listen back to something. I'll be like, that's fucking shit. That's shit. Like, and I've realised now that this thing is just, this thing's separate to me. I have to sort of say, hello, mate. Like, welcome in. Like, mate, do you want a cup of tea? Yeah. Yeah, right. and I'm just gonna but I'm just gonna just keep going and yeah it's Matt like you're you've got such high agency do you mean in terms of just like be able to make it happen so I don't I wouldn't ever let those doubts in no no no I also sometimes think it keeps you you don't want you don't want to be so far this way I think that's it I think that's what I think this was you know more like I I write and...

1:39:26What do you write? Everything. I mean, all thoughts and all these kind of things. And no, not reading, not even more in a journal, you know, journaling or something. I get these crazy ideas. For example, I was writing, I was thinking about this thing. This is in the middle of the night, mate. And it was more, you know, actually doubt. It's not as critical as we want it to be. Like it's not as fertile. Not as? As fertile as we think it is. And I was like, this is me. Now this is me talking to myself, you know, talking to why I, because, you know, I question, I'm a self-refractor. I question, I ask myself, at what point did I develop this thinking?

1:40:22Why would that be? And this is me etonalizing it. And I said, I wanted to write, this was supposed to be going public, actually, like write a post. You know, the doubt is not as fertile as actually. Like self-doubt and doubt in its meaning is not as fertile as the credit we give it. Because through within this doubt, we actually, when we wrestle back, we actually have massive power that we we gain from there because then you know if i was not sure and now i'm i am then what can really be and that's something that for me um it's it's reflective and and i really want i want to say that i think sometimes refractive doubt is good.

1:41:19Because it allows you to bring yourself back in a questioning mode because that niggling questioning doubt you may have, for example, when you talk about maybe it's not really, you know, maybe it's not nice as that can make you to go oh, maybe I need actually let me bring this. Well, doubts, shock. So if I'm going into a, sometimes I go into a podcast and I'll be doubting myself. If it's sometimes like a guess, I'm just filled with imposter syndrome. And I'm like, who the fuck are you, mate, to be doing this interview? Like, how have you bagged this one, yeah? And I'm just full of doubt. I'm full of doubt.

1:41:59And I'm going over the stuff and I'm like, but the more I think about it is doubt sharpens the sword. Because it basically, what it does is it just like, so what you're doing is say my questions are a sword. the doubts being like is this the right question and then fear sharpens the fucking sword motherfucker yeah so you go in and i'm like i'm like now i'm like if i'm scared i'm scared i'm just like this is going to make me like on it like and actually i feel like jimmy's from jimmy's iced coffee said fear and excitement are the same thing it's just how you frame it it's how you frame it so it's like so if i'm like you know i did a couple this last over the last month where i've been like walking in like touching cloth like you know what i mean and then like even yesterday before i recorded i went downstairs and i was like and also we had loads of people in the restaurant which i'm not used to i prefer it just like this yeah and i was like oh my god this is like who the hell am i to be doing this and i was like i looked in the mirror i was like let's fucking go motherfucker and then just like you know but i was like this is that and then then then as soon as you go you go do you know what i mean and it's yeah and i think it's important because if you just don't, if you don't, if you just so, I mean, ultimately, you still want to have 90 % complete self-belief and like ambition.

1:43:11But I think there is something in the doubt. I think there is something in the doubt. There's something that a little bit of the fear that brings us a bit back to who we are, but also reaffirms. And by the way, I don't believe, even in the people that we think they are so

1:43:33determined or like there's no one unless he's lying there's no one who doesn't have those kind of doubts doubts or fears because they make us in a lot of ways and i'll bring it to myself in this way.

1:43:53One of the biggest learning in my life when everything was said and done and I have no one and when I say I had no one, everyone was gone. If you were in a room of 10 people now of you and you are in that room and I'm telling you, you are in the room and no one puts a hand to have you to what what that does to you is incredible but also it's the realization oh what i was so scared because when my mom died i was like oh i don't know where to go but when that happened i was like now this is it this is it and I remember this like it was yesterday I went in the back of this house sorry this is after just after this conversation about who should take Wycliffe who should take me to look after me as I grow and stuff and I went in the back of this house and I said to myself if I didn't have a mirror, if I had a mirror, this is what I actually would have done.

1:45:13But I went on this banana plant, and I was holding this banana plant, and I said, that is it. You are on your own. You need to go and find your path.

1:45:30and finding your path doesn't necessarily mean that I was on my own and therefore I have to go and graft and do everything on my own but finding your path to me at that moment remember this is in this country you'll be a child but in me I had this the fear had been sucked out But I needed that fear after death of my mom to almost flash back to me to say, what you were fearing was right. What will happen to you? But at the same time, it is your platter. Now go. and so I have you know I have reflected on on all these and so many times and you know my son asked me you know I've managed I've tried I tried to protect my kids so I thought not to give them a lot of the raw sadness of my childhood because those traumas can you know could have taken me in any direction.

1:46:52I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't... Nothing. I had every single reason to do anything just to numb my sorrows. Out of the 27 kids we went under mango tree, nine of them are dead. only one went on and do a level or level go to university and that's me i look at all these things when i'm hit and i feel like i'm hitting a wall

1:47:37I think back out of 27 kids who went under mango tree in this village 9 of them are dead only one went on to do university why? if that was just for Wycliffe self-satisfaction I don't think so and that then it reframes my struggles there has to be a reason how did the struggles hit you now or do you just suppress them I wouldn't say almost as suppressing them I had equated suffering with life I had built a actually Sam McLeary he's a brother he's a mentor of mine he introduced me to Gareth you know to life coach me Who's Gareth? Gareth Gareth now works I think he's the head of people at Nando's now Right but he's a life coach you should I don't know whether he's practicing now but because he's now fully working but fully doing the Nando's gig but he helped me looking at things in a different way in perspectives and to your question to answer your question before I actually lose that thought how I see and how I've always seen problems and suffering for me I had built in this understanding that suffering equals life because to be honest I didn't know I didn't know I didn't know whether there was something different I didn't know better I didn't know anything that you could say because because and and the harder part for me um was i was already surrounding people who are doing much better like their mom and dad is there they have a clean nice uniform uh mine we have to patch it i mean here is now stylish to have patched i mean it's a it's a shame for you in those villages to have a patched it shows you you are the lowest of the lowest you have you cannot even afford to buy a uniform but this is how my life was even in that I was the happiest child and that's not through suppression but through something I became to tell myself this is for the moment this is for the moment yeah I'm going through this for the moment.

1:50:49This is a moment, you know, I'm just going through this now. And that now is not defined.

1:51:02It's that whole, this too shall pass. This too, but remember, you don't have anything that passed. So, you don't have any other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't have a reference point to that. But it's something that I am very aware that it's just a one-off gift that I got. What did you learn at Nando's? Nando's... And what was your order, actually? Yeah, my order. My favourite order. Yeah, yeah, you've probably tried the whole menu. I mean, I was, you know, in Nando's I was a little wonker. Basically, I would do, you know, do anything, how I want. But what I really, you know, half chicken, medium lemon, medium mixed with lemon and herb and something.

1:52:04But anyway, I, oh. What sides? Rice with peas. That's my go-to. Well, I'm trying to be healthy. No, but. Otherwise, garlic bread. G bread with a... I mean, I've never been so much of a bread person. So I don't really like garlic bread. Until I met my wife, I think in the first two years of meeting my wife, I ate more bread than I had eaten my entire life until I met her. In two years. Because she comes from a background, a remaining background, where bread is so much part and parcel of their thing. Well, it's all stews, isn't it, in Romanian food? Yeah, it's food. No, it's like stews, like you're dipping.

1:52:50Yeah, dipping in it. Yeah, yeah. It's dangerous, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my best friends, Razvan, is from Romania. And, mate, he came round on Christmas Day, yeah. And he goes, mate, he goes, bruv, I've got some Romanian wine, boy. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let me try something. So I was expecting out this nice bottle. It's like a bit like a fucking jerry can, yeah? He goes, get your mitts on that, yeah. I was like, oh, my God. I got licked on that. But, yeah, yeah. But they're stews and they have the... The bread. And the vine leaves. Yeah, your own salamone, they call it salamone.

1:53:24But, however, because of that, I mean, you know, Fernando's, that bread thing, it was never really, you know. But Fernando's had so many other things. And I think their best, you know, you really get to enjoy an experience and do raps on different formats that you as a staff, you never, you know, you can do magic, right? But what I really learned, you know, on my Nando's journey is something about people, which is, it's something that for me, almost seeing it in and another organization that I believed. There is no chicken without people. And I use, you know, I always framed this thing in what I do outside, you know, what I was doing outside Nando's, which was great coffee starts with people.

1:54:28There is no coffee without people. however incredible a roaster or ai created mechanism of roasting if coffee was handled bad by the people who grow this coffee and looked after you never you cannot really rescue it and therefore everything starts with the people and if you do that you you can do so much and that is I would unpack there's no chicken without people I think you know think about this way even at the height of technology use you still need people to operate in some way but now to bring it home to you know I'm not an under spokesman but I will always be a Nandoka. That's what we always believe.

1:55:29And I believe that... Which Nando's branch were you working at? Ah, all over. You know, Brixton, you know, Stratum, Clapham, you know. Which whereabouts in Clapham? The Clapham Common. Clapham High Street. Yes. You have the other one and you have this one. Yeah. Yeah, but I was in O2. I was in King's Cross. I'd done, you know, my way of looking at Nando's was more sharpening um you know i go to sharpen empathy sharpen and sharpen empathy example of that customer may come and say for example customer told me one day um he was so upset that i didn't allow them to sit as a manager i had said you know looking you know you can't sit there because you're one and a table for six i have a table for two that i can we give you.

1:56:24And he turned to me and said to me

1:56:31F this, F that and we never used to eat with people like you. Who are you to tell me that we never used to eat with people like you. Go back to your country. And all the customers got upset who were hearing that. And after and I looked at it and said I said, thank you, sir. You know, with a smile. And one of the customers was so upset. He went to push him and was so upset. And every seven of these customers came and said to me, why did you let him off? Don't allow people to talk to you like that. Why are you so calm? and I say I don't know what was going on in his head and I don't know why he would have such a reaction me reacting in a similar manner would just give him a reason to do even more than what he can control and this guy I remember saying to me, but you're not normal.

1:57:53If he said that, I would, well, I wouldn't, but you know, but he sweared. He was like, I would do this. And I said,

1:58:04I don't support how he treated me. And I would never condone it. But me giving him a space to say all those things without allowing him to annoy me or to impact me has always something in my Nando's experience has been my superpower. I have seen things on the shop floor. People have done things to me. I've sweared. I've done all these kind of some horrible experiences. I was put on a gunpoint. Where? In my Sturtham branch. Why? Oh, someone came and wanted to rob. Someone wanted to rob, rob the place. In the night as I'm leaving, put me on a gunpoint. What's it like when you've got a gun to your head?

1:59:05Huh? What does it feel like?

1:59:11I'll put it this way.

1:59:15The difference between in that moment of dying and surviving is very slim. Because your reaction... They have balaclavas on? Yeah, balaclava, everything. Before COVID even kicked in. Anyway, but this guy had watched us for a long time because he was able to tell me where I live. He was able to tell me what bus I take. And I said, oh, that's good because you can come and find me at the bus. we can talk but let's get out of this camera the traumatic part for me I think it was the understanding that I could have died but also the scary part is not I could have died the scary part is you almost any reaction you have has a result that you may not want.

2:00:18Like how I say back, you don't know what you say. But, you know, being confident in that moment, especially I was looking at my staff, like, you know, what they're going to do. You know, that is something that, you know, it was traumatic, it was traumatic, but traumatic. But it doesn't, you know, there's so many great, great, great experience. And I think I say to you, there are so many things that I think, you know, Nandoz as an organization, have a recipe for, especially fledgling founders like us, that they should come and, not the chicken sauce recipe, but they have a recipe, because they have recipes, but the recipes of how they're doing and, you know, in terms of running business and stuff like that.

2:01:09What are the four ingredients, the recipes for leadership and empathy? And what do they do that no one else does? I think for them, you know, it was a clear people. I think, you know, for Nando's it was people. I think everyone would say, oh, yeah, the chicken tastes great too. It's just amazing. But. No chicken without people. They had really managed to master the people game. How though? I'll put it this way. In a hospitality world,

2:01:48you know, you'll have the turnover is super high, super big. In Nando's, average is five years of tenor or tenure. What are they doing differently to get to five years?

2:02:04People, they look after you. I don't think it was someone sat down there and said, okay, it's part of their ideals and stuff, but you almost always felt that someone had your back somewhere. you know that kind of feeling you know and that's i think that's that's how you know that's how and and also you know it it you always almost feel like uh these are my people i remember also um this is some somewhere where you know you were always you know proud to be doing what you're doing and pushing what you how you're pushing but for me in my way it was almost um a medium a medium the balance of it because I was allowed and I think more companies should if you have an individual in your company that is performing absolutely great but is really great at podcasting or building things tinkling outside but don't lose them don't allow them to just quit so that they can go and do their thing, you know, because in this way, find a way.

2:03:35And Nandos, for me, in that time, they allowed me to do, you know, to do things. Let's talk about Blue... How do you say it? Trucaro? Blue Traco. Blue Traco? Yeah. Blue Traco? Yeah, Blue Traco, like Traco. What does Traco mean? Was that an area? No. I would say Blue Trucker is a bird is a what? a bird a bird yeah sorry it's a massive bird I don't know how illustrative you want me to be yeah yeah yeah I want you to start clocking like a bird mate yeah but so Blue Trucker the journey for Blue Trucker is interesting but Blue Trucker just to unpack this this bird it was my are companion right um you know the brood truckle bird is a tropical bird that really lives in tropics but usually in the shed coffee shed trees and usually comes in the time when uh no no it comes at a time when um the coffee is harvested being harvested during that season So as a child, I was picking up, you know, when I was picking these coffees, these birds used to sing a lot.

2:05:01They chat and they were talking and screaming. And so this has so many, you know, a couple of meanings on why it's here, why it's there on the front. um these as a child as a young guy picking these coffees i'm not talking to no one but i'm hearing the sounds of these birds their sound and the way they crack and they they sing and talk i developed a mechanism of understanding these birds i could tell with precise what that bird is gonna do after that sound. Give me an example. For example, it's about to fly. It will make this sound where it will do like three calls.

2:05:59I don't know. I feel like a possess, but it makes this, and then you know that when it does, it's a call, but this time it's not a call for coming. It's a warning to the other side that it's going. Anyway, and so when I came to England and I went to a shop in the south in Stottom and it was this coffee shop. And, you know, with my naivety, I mean, even in Uganda, I was from a small town, you know, so I'm a village boy as they come. So I'm in this coffee shop and I'm shocked. how everyone is talking like literally everyone in the coffee shop was talking and laughing but because they were laughing i was like for me it was almost going back to to the to the truck to the bootwackles.

2:06:57And it was like... You don't understand? This is so good.

2:07:11So I felt like this is like, actually, this is how anyone in the coffee field hearing the bootwackles was. And so for me, bootwackles also meant almost like this, the experience. of how, you know, where there is happiness, there is laughter, there is there, but it doesn't matter. You don't need to understand everyone. Just enjoy, just enjoy seeing people laugh, joy, love. You know, so that meant to me. And so I said, when I have this coffee, when I built the coffee, because I wanted, you know, this, what I'm talking, this is why I tell you that there's no moment. I don't have a moment where I say, no, this is it.

2:07:53no it's been a you know almost like amalgamation of different verifiers or reasons look I should do that you should be anyway and this is how I wrote it yeah there's the Winston Churchill I just read a book of Winston Churchill every single one of his speeches and it goes like all these different things had led to him and he says it felt like I was walking with destiny yes And I feel like that's what you're doing. You're walking with the birds. That is your destiny. And it's like, you're not, it's not like, as you say, this is the fucking moment. I want to do it. It's like the energy I get off you, Wycliffe, is you are walking with your destiny.

2:08:34And I think... And that's to take me to the train station.

2:08:42I love that. But that's exactly that. I think that's... We need another time to unpack this because I think there is so much I'd say that I think, you know, it's really cool. But anyway, so. What, with the Destiny stuff? With everything? So much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Rosie did say when we were to do this that this was going to go on.

2:09:06Rosie, sorry. But the funny, the great part about, you know, why this bird and stuff is exactly that. But the other part is, you know, in the West, we talk about sustainability and we talk about this and I'm you know that there is you know have you know as a farmer I think you know we need you know we you know I I think in the west we we create these words that you know it's sustainability to me is as simple as what can we you know how can a farmer grow coffee that is profitable and you know the profitability to him or her it means also the land has to be you know rejuvenated and therefore because there's no rejuvenation of the land there's no sustainability without the farmers without these people without the land without the you know the community so when you talk about environment all this kind of thing it's all boils down to can you make can you help the farmer have a life so for me um this is a big thing.

2:10:06Blue Truckle and its journey has been and will always be, as you say, a long, like a destiny. In 2016, I went back to one of the villages that I work in. And in this village, I went and, you to talk to these people because i was now decided that i wasn't ready to push this and i spoke to this you know to you know i spoke to a area mayor the mayor of this village and say can you gather a few farmers so we can have a chat um and true to his word we met and we we spoke and I told them my vision of coffee and I shared with them my vision of coffee and their coffee in particular and I told them I want to take your coffee international and I want to make it big but I want you to be in a point where your coffee is so appreciated people are appreciating that coffee enjoying that because it brings joy to them but also it helps you as much as the customers enjoying enjoying the coffee also helps you and one of the the farmers this is more i think more important almost brings back to their links back to the conversations we had stood and said are you drinking do you drink alcohol I said no because if you're not drunk and what you're telling us I feel like you're wasting our time what makes you think knowing your background what makes you think that you can take this coffee international it It has never been done here.

2:12:09We just grown. Our parents grew to coffee. It's never been done. Done. That moment. Hit me. So hard. But I could feel the doubt in what I had said. Cut it with a knife. In that room.

2:12:29Even those who showed the belief. they still you could feel and hear doubt that that's not possible I walked back after because she left us and I went to her house and I knocked and I said auntie because you know as we Africans we don't call people by their names in most cases we out of respect you know say you know auntie or uncle whatever so anyway i said to her auntie what made you say that what what do i what do you think of me that is not possible and she said to me it's not you or it's not entirely you exactly but it's impossible what could you say what here could you say what means do you have that could really make this because are you better she gave me names are you better than that are you better than that do you want to say I remember I said to her I will make it happen and that took me back to the words I said to my mother I will go to university and I will study law and that almost quickly it said if I said that to my own mother and I was able to go and do it this is possible but also I felt if your own have doubted you what chance do I have in the British market what chance do I have to actually go out there and be able to do this so you're getting the coffee from there now yeah yeah so you've set up the supply chain yeah and how are you improving the lives of people out there with your work in so many ways so I grow coffee so one of you know just to back up so you grow the coffee So after that conversation, I decided that I'm going to do something that is very untraditional of a startup.

2:15:01So I had this coffee, small coffee farm, and I said, I'm going to grow more coffee so that I can get some of these farmers. so that whatever I say to them, the picking and stuff, it's not just coming out of like a playbook, but it's something that I have done that I do. So I spent, for the last seven years, I'll count on my fingers when I've been on holiday because my holidays were spent going back to do this. so i planted those coffees and grew these coffees because i really wanted to make sure that what i want how i want to work with these farmers is something that they can also see that it's possible so i didn't want to come to be an academic and tell them we learned that this works we learned we had this no i wanted to do it and so that's what i done and so since then i started getting a little bit because you know a little bit of coffee for me here from these you know these farmers um to experiment to do this processing and all this kind of thing so right now our when we talk about um when i talk about impact to be apart from the fact that we pay 30 percent more than you know what you know if they went to five steps, five layers of this supply chain or seven layers of the supply chain because I work directly with them.

2:16:39They only speed dial my WhatsApp. I can't even now say, oh, farmer so-and-so, do you mind to send me a photo of this, what you picked today? I can't. That is a special relationship. That is, when I talk about the impact, when I talk about, these are things that, for me, they mean more than what everyone wants to hear. And that's why for me, I think sometimes I almost have to leave, to get out of a little bit of out of the way because I'm so deeply connected and emotionally attached to what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do something, trying to build a team and build almost a philosophy of something that has not been done before.

2:17:29They have never been a smallholder coffee farmer building a brand and putting it in a supermarket. That has never happened. For 75 years, we've been buying coffee from Uganda, bring it over here. There has never been a coffee farmer who is locally connected, trying to do things different, and most importantly, championing specialty Robusta. What's Robusta? Good, you ask. Robusta coffee is native coffee species to Uganda. In fact, when you're really tracing these coffee species, You have Robusta, you have Arabica. And Robusta is one of the coffee species that is found in Eastern Central and then afterwards distributed all over the world, but is a native of Uganda.

2:18:33It's an incredible coffee species, especially in terms of what we are going through now in climate change. it grows faster when we process it it tastes incredible I mean you have just had a cup of this coffee it's it's unique and that uniqueness of this coffee species in how when it looked after well and processed well that uniqueness is what we are trying to what we bring out that's what customers are finding out these are not just me now as a robust evangelist I'm talking it's the customers picking us up in Waitrose picking us up in Co-op or on Ocado on our website and soon they'll be picking us up in Tesco's and so on that is something that we are building because in order for us to build a lasting impact in the coffee supply chain and the coffee growing communities, especially as people who are championing Robusta coffee.

2:19:51It's imperative that we continue to innovate, bring amazing, like fruitful, like amazing coffees, tastes good, does good, makes you feel alive because of the higher caffeine that it has. but that energy you don't need you may not need to drink a red bull after your coffee after drinking a bull track I mean I've had two of them I'm absolutely a buzzer so it's really this is it I think it's very important for us and that's where we're driving building a brand that is really so close to the consumers making sure the consumers are you know they are enjoying this coffee but also because of our vision and ambition we want to get more people to appraise so we are the first small holder coffee farmer african-owned coffee brand to come into this retail how do you do you have the capacity for scale or was that being what's that challenge been um capacity for um for expansion or for scale is there and that's where i think the then you know our next phase is you know we are in a moment of trying to you know raise some funding to to expand but also because i understand my passion and greed and determination is purely how can we get more people to appraise this coffee How can we get this great testing coffee to more people?

2:21:35It's not enough to have a great product. I'm learning. I had this, Ugandans have been growing these coffees for centuries. But even now, if I ask you, go to a supermarket, you won't find Ugandans. Oh, this is Ugandans. No, having a great product with, when you're not able to take it to so many more people to appreciate it, that's where the magic sauce is. And so I'm building, and I think maybe it's not yet public news, but I've been quoting some former MD of Innocent asking him, can you come, can you come, can you come help me to build a strategy? Because you have to buckle in. We are trying to build a hundred million pound brand in an industry that has never seen someone like us trying to do this.

2:22:29but also in an industry where I think it has been overly reliant on Arabica coffees. We are bringing the heat in a very different way. So for a lot of retailers that are not yet having blue truoco on the shelves, the differentiation of the product for the consumer, allowing a consumer, I like how you're taking a sip. I hope it comes. We'll get that. Use that in your advert, mate.

2:23:04the depreciation of this coffee and the opportunity for more consumers to have a truly a differentiated product on the shelf is immense we're just scratching the surface man bro we're gonna have to wrap that up but you're an absolute don honestly i've absolutely loved that conversation i'm so inspired um and i think we're gonna have to do another one and um yeah i just i feel like your journey is just it's it's it's insane it's beautiful there's pain there's sorrow there's sadness but there's just so much from that you've created positivity joy you're helping people and i think this is you're on a mission you're gonna get there i know it i know it i know i believe it thank you so much so much bro um thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope, and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands.

2:24:29Thank you so much.