The Subtle Art to Keeping Your Restaurant Alive & Booming - Robin Gill, Darby’s, The Dairy, Sorella

34:27I build a great relationship with guests that come here all the time. They're now great friends. And for me, I think I've done it right when I've become the most loved restaurant. It doesn't have to be technically the best. Do you know what I mean? So if we might, I don't know, there could be something that might go wrong, but as long as the guest leaves feeling loved and that they love this restaurant more than any other restaurants and we feel part of their DNA and we're, do you know what I mean? And vice versa. To be the most loved restaurant is what I want to be. Yeah. You know, it doesn't need to be like 10 out of 10 of good food guide and like fucking...

35:02What do you think about Michelin Stars? Is that something that... You've worked at Le Monde Mile, like... Huge respect for Michelin. You know what I mean? And, you know, not to say never, I still would always love to have a star of my own. You know what I mean? I always felt that. I thought we were so close. I never set out to get a star when I ventured out of my own restaurants. When we opened the dairy, my goal was to get a Bib Gremont because I wanted to be known as great food at great value. Sure. But when we launched and we kept on pushing the boundaries and we grew our team, the food just kept getting better and better and better.

35:38And then we had all of these incredible chefs from all over the world, from Rene Radepe, Gordon Ramsay, you know, Claude coming in every other week, Jason Arden. We had all of these chefs coming in all the time, and they all said, you're going to get a star. Yeah. So all of a sudden, we wanted it. Yes. And it became like a bit of a kind of, like a real kind of want and need for it, do you know what I mean? Like almost bordering on healthy. And when you say almost bordering on healthy, like did it take away from the very thing you just said about the Beatles, about being loved? Did it kind of like you became too maniacally obsessed with that?

36:16No, it just upset us that when the guy came around, everyone was saying, you're going to get it. And you'd be, we were getting one of these sort of, you know, publications saying, our tips for getting to start this year, and we would always be in it, blah, blah, blah. So then all the team would be waiting, going, it's going to be our year. So for about a month before and a month after, there's this huge, horrible anxiety around it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you get back into the flow of things, and then you wait for another eight months or whatever to all happen again. So it's healthy and unhealthy at the same time and I have huge respect for it.

36:48And honestly, like, you know, I think I'd love to do something and I have this kind of weird philosophy, like I have a long-term goal that I'm never going to retire. I love cooking, I love being in restaurants and I think it keeps me alive. Sure. You know, I love also fitness and walking and all that kind of stuff, but I think I have this dream ever since I worked in Italy to have a place near the coast somewhere where it's like a retirement plan that I'm going to cook maybe seasonally, ideally over the summer, and I'm predominantly seafood but vegetable-focused. And I have this thing that it's probably where I might get a star.

37:24Because I just think that I'm not, I'm just going to be so content to go to own the building, just cook from the heart, and it's going to be small, it's going to be contained, and I just think maybe after all my experience over the years, hopefully that'll be the place. you know what I mean and maybe because I won't really care anymore and it happens when when you least care about things it's so true but when you don't care it comes there's definitely a truism in that how does food and cooking you said so like almost like inextricably intertwined into you like how does cooking help you express things you can't often express through words oh my god that's an easy answer actually because she's not going to get me teary about this now but years ago my mother-in-law died really young, she was only 49, like all of a sudden, real tragic death, and we were working together my wife and I, for Raymond and there was anyway, we suddenly rushed home and I don't think I was I have actually, you know I've been close to I've been really close to sort of big deaths you know very early on when I was quite young and and you're you're a bit kind of lost at what to do when something like that happens and you're you're immediately around and you're kind of like in the inner circle of let's say the people who are grieving the thing that I did was just cook do you know what I mean it's like and without saying a word just the simple act of cooking for someone you don't have to speak you don't have to learn you don't even have to know the language but I just got my head down I didn't know what else to do and because I'm a cook that's all I could think of to do I was like right I'm just keeping busy but it's a gesture like food and cooking is a form of love that doesn't need a language that's it you can be in any culture in a different language if you're cooking something it's mad so I interviewed um um um um Santy at Cole you know uh in uh Marlborough in the restaurant yeah yeah yeah absolutely Don but he was basically saying he had a mad story whereby he um I think he lost his dad his mom and his grandfather in the same fucking month wow which was like super intense and he basically said the only way i could sort of grieve was he went and worked in the kitchen he's like 15 okay yeah he said like he said one like literally like being in mexico city not having like he could actually feed his family one but two it was like a way to like communicate without having to say anything yeah i think it's so true what you've what you've said there robin about that it's like a yeah it's like food's like a love without any lack it doesn't need a language around it.

40:03Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And don't get me wrong, I get into cooking to try to get girls as well. Yeah. Well, you did. You did. You did. Let's talk about when you met Sarah then, because she was front of house. Yeah. You're at the Manwar. Like, talk to me about that whirlwind of romance. Well, actually, I wasn't at the Manwar just yet. I was actually cooking in Italy at the time in Don Alfonso's. Right. And I, what did I do? I had basically it was a seasonal restaurant, so they were closed for February, January. so you get through Christmas, New Year's there and then it was shut for January, February so I would go back to Dublin and Sarah was working in a restaurant that I used to cook in and I had a great relationship it was a kind of a nice local restaurant called Brasilia Mara at the time seafood restaurant in my hometown in Leary on the south coast of Dublin and I used to get invited back to the staff parties were always in January so I would always get the invite even though I hadn't worked there for years because a lot of the crew were still working there was like a nice bit like getting invited to a St.

41:03John party this place was around for a long time sure with you yeah yeah and so I got the invite and met Sarah she was actually due to have an exam the next day so she shouldn't have been there and I also didn't have a phone and I was staying in a friend's house Paul McNerney's and I I didn't have a phone at the time and I God knows why but the landline rang and I picked it up and it was one of the girls from that was working in the restaurant called Claire who was saying, you come to the staff party. So it was just strange that neither of us should have been there. But when we both went on this lunch, we sat beside each other, had to cry and really got on that night, kissed.

41:42And it was like a real fast romance. You know, I was going to, we met in Dublin and then a few days later had an incredible date that was like off the charts, great fun. What did you do on the date? I probably can't say.

41:59like basically it was it was a fun one it was like i was trying to be all cool and be romantic and and saying like do you want to go to the theater she was like no i've like we're going partying i rented a hotel room so it was straight in i was like well okay you know let's fucking go baby so we saved this place called handles and it was like everything was just like really fast you know but in a good way because sometimes that can happen as well if you take sort of time for granted and I'm talking about not just in relationship but in anything. If you take time for granted things can slip by and this certainly didn't because then two days later I'm going to Spain because my parents are living in Spain.

42:37So I'm going there for like a month before I go back to Italy. Sorry, how long ago? How many years ago? We're probably married 14 years ago. We're talking nearly 20 years ago. And so I said, look, do you want to come to Spain? We only just met. This is day three. so you want to meet the parents like what the hell Romeo Inn quite literally so then she came over to Spain and spent a week there and then we had a great time got on really well with my parents as well and then I moved to Italy she turned down an opportunity to go to New York she was going to spend New York she was in college at the time she was going to do a J1 three months in New York with a cool friend of hers Leanne God knows why she chose to come to me she did So she then joined me in Italy for three months.

43:26And I think that's when I was working crazy hours in Don Alfonso's, but she had friends coming to visit. I had this beautiful apartment. And yeah, La Dolce Vita's pretty much, you know what I mean? That's where we really sort of, that was it then, you know? Wow. And then, so then, but then you went to the Le Manoir together or what? So then I went back to Dublin really briefly. I had met a chef who was staging in Don Alfonso's that I got on well with. loved the sound of Le Manoir. I got invited over to Le Manoir to do a stage, which is where you work for free. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did two weeks there, had a ball, and then got offered a role there.

44:02So I was literally in Dublin for a couple of months and said, I'm going to Le Manoir. Yeah. And it was a bit like, what the fuck? I thought we were hanging out a little bit. So she finished college. So we had a bit of a long distance thing for a short while. Yeah. And then she came and joined me in Le Manoir and worked there then, you know. Wow. Beautiful story. What are some of the big lessons you've took from Raymond and, you know, Le Manoir? I guess, I mean, cooking-wise, you know, skill, do you know what I mean? About, like, sort of, well, skill, that sounds a bit of a thing, but as in craft.

44:41You know, I learned whole animal butchery, real whole fish butchery, how to recognise quality ingredients and you know get the best ingredients you can get your hands on first and then you can work with it do you know what I mean my first role in that kitchen was goods received where you're responsible for everything that comes in through the door to all the butchery the prep in fact we just I was just cooking with Lenis Hasties from Fire Door on Monday and I was first that was my first role was being the butcher for him wow he's a ball raker yeah yeah yeah you had him on recently didn't you no I haven't had him on I thought you did I thought you did so yeah and anyway so like that sort of real skills before you even put it in a pan it's the basics you know how to make a sauce how to make a stock yeah how to prep a mushroom you know what I mean it was back to basics even though I've been cooking for probably six seven years at that time it was like wow start again wow you know what I mean and that's on the cooking side of it anyway what do they teach you about the business side organization how to how to how to lead people yeah how to go into that more that because so i think and i want to get onto this is that you've got such a wide range of restaurants and people like how you how you manage all this and you're not mate yeah a lot going on but like what's he taught you about about the art and craft almost the craft of fucking leadership well i think it's communication you know it's how to talk to people um how to talk to different people in different ways everyone is a character as well okay yeah So if you have, you've got someone who appears to be, let's say, needs to kick up the arse and needs encouragement, that's the thing, they need encouragement.

46:20And you need to be kind of on them all the time. And sometimes some people kind of almost thrive a little bit on positive energy to kind of, let's go, let's go. And you've got to build them up. They don't respond well, maybe to sort of, there's other people that are maybe a little bit shy. And then if you try to go, come on, come on, come on, come on, they spin out. Spin out, that's such a banging way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So you've got to treat people slightly a little bit differently in how you approach, you know, a character who's kind of a little bit more timid but has great skill and you know they can do it and they really care.

46:53And it's the ones that really care and that are timid that sometimes end up being the best in the world because the best and also worst for themselves because the kids, they care so much, they think about what they're doing so much that they then, they're not really focusing on what they're doing at that particular time. Yeah. And they can, early stages, they're slow growers, let's call them. So they mess up. I think I was a bit like that where I was so passionate about things and I was so worried about messing up that maybe initially I was a little bit panicky. And then once you get over that period, then it's a lot more, you're a much more consistent chef.

47:28You get over that hump of insecurities and then you're just constantly driving to be better and better and better. Yes. Whereas sometimes they're really skilled ones who come in, they're shiha, and things come to them much easier. They get complacent, they get a bit lazy and they don't grow as well or as consistent as the guys that really care. Yes. It's interesting. That's what Michelle Rue Jr. said to me. I think one of the questions I asked him was like, out of Gordon, Marcus and Marco, who was the least naturally talented, who was the one who had to put the extra hours in? You know what's absolutely mental, mate?

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49:18Yeah, so what we're talking about is your time at Le Manoir. Yeah. I'd love to know what are some of the lessons that Raymond taught you that you'd pass on to your own son? oh that's how old you how old you he's 11 11 ziggy right yeah yeah it's what it is my son that's a that's a tough one because it's interesting you say that because like you know rb is like you know that's a business sort of you know relationship sort of respect but then you know when you're a young chef like i remember when i first moved over to london you know first time away from home You do, especially if you've got a good relationship with your head chef.

50:01It is this kind of, now it might sound a bit creepy, but a bit sort of fartherly sort of. Sure, sure. Do you know what I mean? You're suddenly going, especially when you're very young. I was only just turned 18 when I moved to London. So like when you're going from like, you know, literally, you know, your mammy's still cooking you breakfast in the morning to suddenly going over and getting a flat and cancel agreement with your pals and then you're in this sort of quite tough environment. I guess you latch on to sort of somebody a little bit senior then. you do you know what I mean and I think definitely RB would be up there with sort of someone that is very you know like a father figure in in in work and stuff like that and um and just as a friend someone you could call on as well if I needed so going back to your question so I went off tangent there a little bit going back to your question I think it's hard to say because like there's a huge work ethic.

50:54Do you know what I mean? Like RB is such a hard worker. He never stops, you know? And I think something my parents taught me that I think also RB would pass down is like, it doesn't matter what you do, whether you're a gardener, whether you're a chimney sweeper, whatever, I don't know, whatever you're doing, you may as well do it to the best of your ability. and that's like sweeping the floor. Now, I sweep the floor. I clean the kitchen. I do the stoves. I do everything. Do you know what I mean? I take it to bins and it might fall on me. Do you know what I mean? And I think whatever you do, I think you've got to just approach it as the best ability as you can.

51:33And I think that's definitely something that I've learned from RB and a lot of my peers that I've worked with over the years, not just RB, but all of the chefs that I've been fortunate enough to work with who I respect mostly, is that they work hard, but they do everything to the best of their ability. They don't come in one day and it's just, don't really feel like working today or it's a bit crap one day and then this, you know. You've got to be consistent in what you're doing. Yeah. And I think that's it with Ziggy. Like, I'm kind of like, if he's in school or if he's learning to play piano, he's playing sports, loves sports.

52:06And if he ever kind of goes, oh, give me a feel like it or whatever, I just, that really annoys me, you know. I'm going to say, like, well, then don't do it. If you're not going to do it, if you're not going to do it, do it. Do it properly, you know. Yes. and I think that's something that sort of sticks with me. So, love that. In terms, so you could line up 100 chefs, 100 business operators and say, right, you're all going to put in 60 nowadays, for example, right? Six days a week. There's something else other than hard work, you know, to get to that level. Because as you say, you line up 100 chefs, not everyone's going to be Raymond Blanc, La Mama.

52:39What would you say that 1 % difference is with him? What's that little fucking thing that just really... made him go like that and that's what you've learned from as well well this raw talent this creativity he's got a you know he's and he's passionate he's articulate he's um you know he sort of he knows not he knows a lot about a lot of things it's not just all about food you know he could talk to you about art he could talk to you about opera singers he could talk to you about you know what i mean yeah he's culturally fucking amazing yeah yeah yeah yeah so and i think that also helps you know if you're great and unfortunately i'm guilty of it myself i have been in the past and sometimes if you just focus on cooking and that's all you ever do and it's all you ever talk about i also think you can just be a bit fucking one-toned you know what i mean and i think it i think it enhances you as a person to have other interests so what other stuff do you look around because also i think you get creative ideas from completely random ideas random fields you apply it to your own thing right whether it's a you can go and read a book about fucking space for example and then you you go and create something and it pulls in so what other stuff do you like outside of this well i love outdoors i love being outdoors like my dad taught me how to sail i love being anything near the sea i'm inspired by i love music we spoke about an awful lot um traveling you know what kind of music because i know we said the beatles but what kind of music to like what you all sorts literally it's all over the place you know i love old school 90s hip-hop i love kind of afro beat i love um indie you know um some of the newer bands out today or i'm kind of interested in i love because i guess because i'm not living in in ireland i'm following a lot of new irish acts who i find really exciting whereas traditionally i've been like there's no good music anymore i would always look to the past and that's kind of a bit of an old man thing to say but actually there are some great acts out there now so i'm actually been a lot more into folk music these days and really look loving seeing great platform or irish traditional you know folk music getting a great platform these days as well you know i was in the devonshire the other night took lennox to the devonshire actually and we were sitting there listening to some of the most amazing traditional music and and that's exciting it's not old hat you know what I mean?

55:04Because that's what Osh and Ashley were saying to me is that Aaron Rowe guy who's the Irish guy. Yeah, he's from just up the road from me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's fucking insane. I think what they're doing at the Devonshire with that back green room is going to be in 20, 30 years time people are going to look back at that as like a part of something much bigger and it's kind of happening live, you know? Yeah, they've kind of made Soho fucking great again. I've always loved Soho, don't get me wrong but I think it's like anything even Brixen which I'm from Brixen the change happens and then all the big brands go in there and then the sort of original coolness of a space gets a bit changed and i think i think what usheen and the gang have brought back to soho was a little bit of real coolness and something that's individual and there's there's actual you talk about culture i love the word culture because they brought an amazing music culture into soho so you're getting huge acts that go in there and want to party but then there's also it's a great platform for these younger artists who are mingling with this great artist that's why I think in 20 years time people would look back and be like that was a fucking thing that's where that happened so I was on the phone to Osh the other day actually and I said we were doing this today and he said in the most positive way you've got like this beautiful maniac mind like a firework display where you just think about all these different things I'd love to understand how you think and I'm asking this selfishly right he said it about me he said you've got this beautiful mind that's got like you've got a thousand ideas all at once and like with what i'm trying to do and i ask all these questions obviously it's like i've got a lot of potential projects on my plate right yeah we want to do this food festival next year in shawditch like i had a meeting about that that would be sick but i feel like there's this one there's two parts to this is like either focus and do one thing well yeah be like what the devonshire are doing or what you're doing which is like do fucking loads of different things but like do them all well like how do you think how does your brain think about this i've got to be careful because i did to be honest with you i I think I did do too many things at one time a few years ago, and I've actually pulled back a bit now.

57:00What were those too many things? Well, I did some kind of consultancy work. I don't want to name any names, but I did some consultancy work where maybe it wasn't quite me. Do you know what I mean? And I felt then I was a little bit stretched, and then I get excited by projects. And I've changed. In the last three, four years, I've changed, where I, because I'm a creative and I get excited about things, I look at a space and I'll come up with a concept and an idea. And I guess I look at it from like, again, putting on a show where we're doing this and I'll go, oh my God, that chef would be really cool there.

57:36This type of cuisine would be really cool there. And I'm sure people will come. And I just get excited by the project and developing something. Yeah. And I'm still excited by that. But I think that if I'm doing that again, I kind of want to be sure that I'm doing it, but it's there to help it get set up, but I can't then run it full time, right? Now, there's... Interesting, yeah. That's one side to it. The other side is that, like, I was actually cooking an incredible lunch. Well, I modestly say that. I was in France, and I was cooking quite... I was afraid. I was nervously standing beside Claude Bossy.

58:16We holiday together instead of France a lot because we're, long story short, but our sons are the same age and wives are friends. We're great friends as well. And it coincides that we're all in France together at the same time. So we were generally cooked together. And the first year we went out and I was cooking, this was kind of when I was in that period where I had loads of different things on the go, way more than I have now. And we just lost the dairy. And it was kind of just after COVID was coming out. Just lost or lost the dairy? Just lost it. It was just when COVID was coming out of COVID.

58:50I basically was in loads of different things. And I think also that was a bit of a result of COVID because we were quiet. We weren't doing anything for sort of whatever, two, three years. That doesn't mean I wasn't doing anything for two, three years. I was having all of these conversations and coming up with all of these different ideas because my mind was going all over the place. So when we got out of COVID, all of a sudden all of these projects that had been waiting to happen all happened at the same time. What were some of those projects? Tell them what you want to say. That's right, that's right.

59:19Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of them were great. Okay, one of them, which is fantastic, was Birch that we did in Hertfordshire where we did a farm. We did multiple restaurants there. And even that, I should have just done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we did Bottlin' Rye at the same time, which is thankfully still running. And so all of a sudden, I had about seven or eight projects all on at the same time because I would consider Birch to be four or five all in one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was massive. and anyway I was cooking this lunch and I was putting my heart and soul into it and it was really like beautiful produce and it was for about 15-16 people and Claude came in towards the end and was helping me kind of get it all together and he said this in a beautiful way he said Robin if I want to eat your food where do I go and I said well if you got a pressure here if you go to Derby's you get this if you go to Sorelli you get this if you go to Botan Rye you get this if you go to such and such you get this and he just said slow down really you if I want to come and see you and your restaurant, where do I go?

1:00:16And I answered him the same question or with the same answer. I said, if I go here, you go get that. If you go here, you go get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said, you know, yeah, but you and your food, where do I go? When you had the dairy, I would go there. And I would know that's Robin of the Dairy has launched X, Y, Z, but it's still always Robin of the Dairy. Right now, you're doing all of these different things. Where do I go if I want to see you? And it was a fucking lightning bolt. moment to go actually hang on he's dead right there like i need to be sort of you know robbing all say derbies and that's kind of then then then i it was just a thing that was like okay that's what i need to do that's what i need to focus on yeah so i ended up actually walking away from a couple of consultancy roles that i was doing looking at what i what was working and what wasn't and then pulled back a bit and then looked at where I was needed most and where, again, where I was needed most, but also what was kind of really needed my attention, what was growing, and that's Darby's.

1:01:24So now I've made a really conscious decision. I'm full-time chef here. I'm a head chef here. Sure. As well as doing other projects. And now if you ask me the same question, if Clutch is right, if you want to see me, nine times out of ten you're going to find me here. Wow Yeah that's a good Lightning bolt for me It's like Just to try and do Focus basically Because I'm like you I get excited by things I'm like oh fuck We could do this We could do that Set up a different Like we're trying to produce Other people's podcasts I'm like is that a distraction It's just like Yeah What's underrated lessons From Claude Bossie Have you taken Um Underrated lessons I mean, I'd say this, again, he's someone who's super aspiring, you know what I mean?

1:02:04To look at kind of like everything he does is with pure class. Yeah. And it's always food focused and at a really high level. Like, to be honest, I wouldn't have been surprised if Josephine, both of them, got a star immediately. It's so fucking consistent. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's incredible bistros. I think they have beer gourmands. I'm sure they do. But they're just pure class. and Lucy's touch to the look and feet of the restaurant, all these little touches from the lemon soap in the bathrooms, I fucking love. Do you know what I mean? And I think, I don't know, I think Claude is a great way of setting things up that are super consistent.

1:02:39Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, he's got two-star level cooking in both Brooklands and, you know, in Bibendum. And I think that, yeah, if he does a brasserie, it's just as consistent. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And that consistency is really hard to do, but he's such a pro in what he does that it's, not clinical is the wrong word, but it's so well executed that, you know, you can go in any other day and it's like, that souffle is the exact same. It's fucking perfect, you know? Would you ever do like a, like a, like with the same one brand, i.e. like a bit like a Josephine's where you do like almost like X number of Sorella's?

1:03:17Has that ever come to you? I've always thought of it and I certainly wouldn't turn it down. I think, in fact, and I don't really agree, with people's sort of judgment on that. You know what I mean? I think that like, if there's a really good quality driven brand that's got integrity, why not? Yeah. That there's a good few of them. Do you know what I mean? It's like, some people say it's a sellout and I think there's great examples of that and bad examples of it. I think a good example is you could say, like Jolene, they've got three, four sites that's done with integrity. And I think it's, I respect that an awful lot.

1:03:51I respect Josephine. I don't respect some of the bigger brands out there that's like serving absolute shit and it's just rolled out and it's terrible. Do you know what I mean? But there's a place for, you know, and I guess I can understand that like when you see high streets that are soulless and they just have the same brands, there's no identity there. And it's losing the bit of its authenticity. I think that's a real shame. But I'd be quite honest about it. I've loved I've looked at and loved our brand Rye, Rye by the Water which was our original bakery with the intention of doing something similar where we'd have a few of them and I want to say a few maybe think maybe three to four or five sites of and I developed a brand in thinking like that where it could be Rye by the Water was when it was in Brentford and I could imagine I had these dreams of like oh maybe it's in Clapham Common and it's Rye on the Common Oh wow yeah yeah yeah that was sick And actually we did it with Bottling Rye and that was our, it wasn't publicized like that, but Bottling Rye is a second kind of iteration of that.

1:04:57But it's a wine bar. Do you know what I mean? And this is just me personally, but I've loved the fact of taking a brand that's linked and it should be linked through quality. And I think it's the quality of our bread and our craft that links in the wine bar. It links in the coffee shop. It links in the big bakery. Do you know what I mean? and then it's so they could be all a little bit different but it's all under one brand yeah I like that because you've got the brand sort of umbrella brand but all these little different nuances per thing yeah another person I hugely admire is Jason Arden who's you know who's done that on a very different level but at a very high level how so with social eating house and social you know what's the other one you know what I mean but it's a social link that's linked them all through it you know what I mean and I thought that was quite clever it was having a brand that it's almost a kind of a tick of quality and it's a link between them all but they're all very different, I thought that was amazing the one thing I want to talk about is Paradise Garage that was in Bethnal Green I've got mates text me, the time we've got restaurants it's fucking hard right now really, really difficult I think that whole taxed outlet has just gone out and I think there's what I'd love to speak to you about is like the art of like closing a restaurant and how you navigate that.

1:06:21But then actually just one thing I respect you, Robin, is you can just bounce back and go again, right? It's like if you get knocked off a horse, you have to go again. Do you know what I mean? I mean, there are... What's the hardest bit about that? Well, the hardest bit is closing a restaurant because it's like losing a sibling, you know? When we closed the dairy, that was, our lease was coming to an end. There was, it was COVID. I mean, I'm not going to blame COVID completely because it was a natural disaster. It was like our lease was coming to an end. The building was in tatters. It was falling down.

1:06:53And the relationship between us and the landlord was also breaking down. And the rent was tripling. So there was all these things against us. And I did absolutely everything to try to save that business. I even had outside investors who were willing to buy the property off the landlord. And we just couldn't find a solution. I even still kept trying to save the business through getting another investor in to kind of help me with some of the debt and even pay the stupid rent that they were trying to charge me and to try to save it, you know, because it was such an embedded part of us. In fact, so much later, when we were driving, when we used to drive past the dairy, when my son was only four or five, he used to go, that's daddy's house.

1:07:32Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, again, I talk about community and when it becomes part of your life and you meet regulars through the business to become friends and family and blah, blah, blah. You know, it's really hard closing a restaurant. It's part of you. So there's no easy way to do it. I think is, you know, with Paradise Garage, it was especially hard because it worked for two years. It smashed all of our expectations financially and the response it got. But then it just started to dip. There was a lot of building going on in the area, but I also think that there was, you know, We weren't the flavor of the month anymore, and that can happen.

1:08:16Do you know what I mean? No matter what we did, the quality was there in my mind. The team were still as good as ever. The menu had evolved in a positive way. We tried to respond to what was going on in the area. We launched brunches. Do you know what I mean? We tried different things to kind of navigate the climate at the time. But just slowly the business was starting to kind of dip and dip and dip. and to be perfectly honest with that with that particular site i looked around me and i saw other businesses just throwing money at the problem and rebranding and changing it and it still wasn't working yeah so we were there on a short period of time and i i turned around to our kind of business partners at the time and i just said like we could throw money at this and we could start changing and adapting but if you look at other people who have done this in the in this exact same area it's not worked yeah and i know for a fact that they're getting more and more in debt in which case we could have a lot more people in you know what i mean so yeah yeah yeah so before it got it before it got out of hand we made the decision to say let's just sell because at the moment we have it we have a high value property because it was an expensive fit out so we could actually get some money for the property at the time yeah and walk away without causing too much damage and that's what we did yeah no it's just fascinating because a lot of people may shut a restaurant and not bounce back you know but you always seem to bounce back and keep going what what's the art when you're at that pit of like darkness as you say it's almost like it's almost like severing a part of your soul right like how do you because people listening to this be like i'm in that situation like what's the art of just getting back up well you mentioned it's like you know losing a restaurant is is and people might get upset about with me saying this but it's a bit like losing a friend or a sibling or a fucking something.

1:10:07It's a part of your life. You put everything into it. And when it goes, it's a part of you that dies. So the only way to kind of cure it from my personal experience was to cook. And it was to get out there and, you know, you could say. But the thing is, I'm really scared about saying that because a lot of people throw themselves into work to kind of get over some of the problems that they have and they become workaholics. so there's a fine line as a balance there you know but for me personally I found that if I just got back on the horse and focused on the positive things in my life whether that's there's another new project that's come up and and goes you know what fuck it there's nothing we can do about that yeah landlord in that situation and and the position we were in but look at what's good in life look at look at my family look at look at my friends look at this other opportunity that's that's arisen I'm going to focus on all of those positive things and park that because there's nothing I can do about that anymore and you just have to fucking put it behind you and it's really easier said than done because I said it's like I can't even walk past it anymore do you know what I mean I'll go another route you know so it's would you ever bring it back under a different site or different guise very hard to do because it is what it is at a time and place and it was cool because it was quirky and it was small and it was narrow and it was loud and it was it was also the people that were working there at the time yeah you know i i i there's a lot of elements in in of the dairy that will always be with me through dishes through through what what i learned from that initial site from learning how to bake bread just for the restaurant then we go launch a bakery you know what i mean so there's elements of it that i've taken with me whether and i you know i've done a few nights where i said i'm cooking a meal i'm cooking a menu from the dairy and they sell out and it's like things like that you know that brand yeah like people are still obsessed with that yeah yeah they are and and i think that's great and it's it's a real compliment but i honestly think i unless the site was absolutely perfect and it was quite similar i almost feel like it needs to be in in clapham in in the old town as well for me to do it if i because like we yeah i just yeah that's why it's hard it's it's and again it's a bit like sometimes you just gotta go that was brilliant but now i'm focusing on this yeah you know what i mean so tell me about the bloodshot supper club that i think it's such a sick name firstly like what was the genesis of that why did you do that well i did it because um again it was at a period in in the dairy where things were great but you know again if you sit on your on your hands and you're gonna go well well aren't we great then what are we gonna do and we were very fortunate one of my one of the guys I'm really respecting the business.

1:12:56Well, two actually, but at the time, Nuna Mendes, I was a real sort of like fan, you know. And he came into the restaurant with Patrick Powell, who was his head chef at the time, now become a really good friend. Again, another guy I admire. They came in for lunch. I sat down with them afterwards and we were just talking about the business in general. And we were saying, you know, apart from cool places like Chinatown, some incredible, really good kebab places out there, where do you go for late night food? Do you know what I mean? and there's great late night brasseries in Paris. There's cool spots in New York, which are not just Chinatowns and blah, blah, blah.

1:13:30There's much more of a diverse scene where you can go and eat some great food. And it just, it was straight after that kind of chat, I knew I was sitting in a space where we didn't have any neighbours above us or around us. You can get 12 temporary events notices a year, so that's one a month, where you can do an all-night party. and I said, I'm going to fucking own this. Sick. And I just, my mind just started going and saying, right, I'm going to, then the idea evolved and I kind of, a lot of great looking, a lot of great friends in the business and friends of, you know, chefs that are working for say two, three star chefs who were the head chefs or junior or senior sous or whatever.

1:14:11And you know, those guys are kind of biting at the bib and they don't get that much amount of creative freedom in the kitchens, but they're super skilled. so I thought right I could create a great platform for those guys who are the next biggest thing that they could come in and flex you know at night in the dairy and it's going to be communal dining so again I wanted to encourage that front of house and back of house element so at the time you could only book the tickets through me personally on Twitter and I could only allow one person to buy two tickets so you wouldn't get just a staff party type vibe and then put all communal seating.

1:14:53And the idea behind it was also that it was for industry only so that I felt it was a great opportunity for people to come into a restaurant space after work like normal punters do on a Saturday night. So they come in, they have their drink and then they have an incredible dining experience and then they will go on to have this experience. you know Otto do you need me Otto do you need me you sure cool so it was it was all these different layers but it was aimed at industry and then what happened was you'd arrive at 12 o 'clock at night you know I remember I had Ian Skarmuska who was head chef for Claude at the time when he had hibiscus in Mayfair and he did the most crazy off the wall menu like just so many different elements and courses What sort of stuff was on the menu?

1:15:50Well he just did this like sort of lobster three ways it was like a little bow and then you got this kind of bisque that came down and it was just like the most immaculate ingredients but like served in all these different ways and it was just everything was an experiential mouth fuck do you know what I mean? It was just like it was just off the charts One of the first ones we did actually was Dean Dean Parker who I mentioned was my kind of head chef He was working in the manor at the time. And he did, one of his first courses was like a red mullet, like with a red mullet dashi made from like all the bones of the fish.

1:16:26But what he did was he served, there were some flowers on the table with this kind of really intense flavor dashi and wild herbs from our rooftop garden that were all decorated on the table. So first course, we came out, cooked the red mullet, of just scorched it at the table, seasoned it up a little bit, dressed it on the plate. And then we got a pair of scissors and snipped the little bouquet over the dish. Oh, wow. And then poured the dash at the table. Wow. From the thing. So it was just, it was experiential. Do you know what I mean? It was like really theatrical. Yeah. Then we had a dish called Reservoir Hogs.

1:17:04Sick. Where Arvind, who was DJing, he sticks on the teen tune from Reservoir Hogs. we send out like these caramelised crispy pig heads that were like cooked in Chinese five spice sort of style seasoning like a broth dressed in a white shirt and a black pie as in the film, the reservoir dogs, that's unreal we played the theme tune, all the chefs were splattered in blood, like fake blood and then dropped all this this like caramelised pig head on the table big bowl of kimchi, rice and surgical gloves just to get in touch and the place just went wild it's mad, you know what I asked you at the beginning about like your parents theatrical stuff and applying that to food and music but that is the fucking epicenter yeah the perfect example of that yeah it was rock and roll dude it was like and then then two three in the morning four like three thirty in the morning traditionally was when the last course was being like turned out so what's home with this start then so it starts at midnight yeah so it was the idea was you finish work yeah you come in you get to get to the dairy at 12 o 'clock have a drink and then you start your evening then and then then as the night evolves the music would tempo go up the volume would go up and then I'd come out and fucking rip away all the furniture and get everybody off their seats yeah and then it's a session until seven in the morning we did one a month for a year yeah and then slow down a little bit yeah yeah yeah yeah that's hilarious the one thing I wanted to ask you about is like your creativity so um as I said like Osh said you've got this beautiful firework mind.

1:18:37Like, how do you, where does your creativity come from? Like, do you think it's like, do you think creativity is like this cosmic thing that comes to you? Or do you think it's something you like comes, you know, we talked about like the subconscious, like, I don't know, I study creativity a lot. And I think it's part, I think it's kind of, I don't know, I'd just love to know what you think of where it comes from. Like, where do you get the idea for Reservoir Fucking Hogs? Do you know what I mean? Well, that was a collaborative one. I think maybe the idea for, it's always inspired by other people, I think.

1:19:05I think everybody has a creative spark in them, some more than others. And I think everybody's a little bit different. I think we're all wired up differently. Some people are really good at admin and love everything all in a clean line and need to be all super organized. I like things organized, but also I'm chaotic. Do you know what I mean? I think I have, I mean, diagnosed her, but I wouldn't be surprised if I have ADHD and lots of other shit. But I think that we're all wired a little bit differently, and I think that drives me, and I think creativity is always really good for the soul. Oh, God, yeah.

1:19:40And I love, I'm always at my happiest when we're creating dishes or we've come up with a really good idea, and it works, and I think that makes me happy. Do you know what I mean? And I find that if I'm just doing the same thing all the time and I'm not creative and I'm not doing things, then my kind of well-being is not as good as it should be. Yes. you know, so it just makes me happier to be creative and do things. Yeah, well, I feel like we've all got this kind of like force in our head, and I feel like if you're creative, it kind of just, it's very cathartic. It just sort of flushes stuff out, do you know what I mean?

1:20:13It kind of has that ability to... Anybody can do it, and it can be like, I don't know, like the Cassie thing ever says, is an accountant creative? Well, they certainly can be, you know. But like, you know, it's like, I think anyone can be, and it's just there's different levels of it, and there's different ways of doing it. And I think everyone should be encouraged to do it because it really is good for the salt. I want to talk a few more things and we'll begin to wrap this up. I'm absolutely loving this. But I read somewhere that you went through a really harsh period of bullying in the kitchen.

1:20:43Yeah. Talk to me about that period. What are the lessons you've taken from that that you apply now that you're no longer a chef but a restaurateur? Well, you know, there's a difference between high octane, you know, when the tempo goes up in the kitchen and there's a little bit of shouting and stuff like that, you know, I personally, like, like I think in the height of the service, I kind of like a high energy, you know what I mean? I think more and more we've got to all learn to be able to be, like, calmer and to be able to get the job done without that sort of energy, do you know what I mean?

1:21:21but I think what there's a difference between high energy and shouting I've been in kitchens like I went straight from you know Dublin and to London and when I spoke initially I was I wrote an article about this years ago about a really horrific time I had in the very first kitchen I worked in and a lot of people thought it was the oak room when I mark a Pierre White because they just associated that time and that yeah that era cooking and it really wasn't I was actually really nurtured there but there was shouting in the kitchen there was name calling there was like cunt of the day and blah blah blah you know what i mean and i i i didn't personally i find it was a lot of pressure but the pressure was to be to be better and and it was you know we you know what i find what was bad was the bullying that i experienced this is a separate separate restaurant So high octane's good, high intensity's good.

1:22:16Look, I think, again, even since that time, I think it's changed. Of course. I think now we've got to all learn how to pressurise that, how that environment should be a little bit calmer. Do you know what I mean? I'm saying that's how I felt that was okay back then. Yeah. Now it probably, it fucking isn't. Yeah. You know? But there's a difference between high pressure and actual bullying. Yeah. And what I witnessed in the first restaurant I was in was bullying, was where when it was quieter, it was worse. It was like I got badly burnt in the face, and I was off for a couple of weeks. When I came back, I had all these marks all over my face, and there was these beautiful waitresses that were coming up to me genuinely concerned.

1:23:01And by the way, I was only 17 at the time. I looked about 14. Right. Okay, I've always looked younger. It wasn't great then. It's better now.

1:23:15you've aged well mate but fine wine but yeah back then I looked really young so when these these girls are coming up to me and they're going jeez Robin are you okay and because they're genuinely concerned and the head chef the fucking head chef yeah shouts down in front of everybody get away from him can't you see look at him look at the legions on his face he's got fucking AIDS honestly that is bullying yeah that's horrific do you know what I mean and then my first day back after my I got badly burnt I was a geek I was writing down everything I was you know really trying hard to learn as much as I could so I probably didn't I wasn't trained it's my first kitchen I ever worked in so I wasn't trained how to write a recipe so it was probably all over the place and a bit silly when I arrived back to my section on the first day of my job the senior chefs four of them were all around my station reading my book and fucking going through it and laughing and then one of them turns around and went have you got the recipe in there for the duck you fucking cunt and the duck was what burnt my face oh my god so that's bullying do you know what I mean I can you know and don't get me wrong I like pressure I like when people are kind of someone says come on fucking let's go yeah yeah yeah how do you as a young kid like you've got this dream so I think I read somewhere you know you'd tried a few different things then as soon as you found cooking become a chef that was your like go a lot of people in that situation would melt.

1:24:43What was it like, when you go home that night and you look in the mirror and you've got these dickheads, what does Robin Gill say to himself? I don't know, do you know what I, I think I was trying to turn into humor. I think it was a bit like, you know, they say the greatest comedians are the saddest. And I think that like, a lot of these guys have all had trauma. I didn't realize at the time I was going through trauma. And the only way I was dealing with it was like, I would meet my mates. I would meet my mates. And I would be like, I would kind of try to turn it into a bit of a joke. And I would turn these stories into sort of like gags almost.

1:25:17You know what I mean? Yeah. And that was how it dealt with at the time. That's not right, by the way. Nobody should have gone through that. I should have walked day one. Yeah. And I should have reported them. And I didn't. So what I did was wrong. I stayed there. And this is all really bravado. Am I saying it right? Bravado fucking bullshit. but it was the fear of failure of doing something wrong again because I basically I'd walked out of school I'd walked out of my music lessons I'd let my father down so many different times that I didn't want to let him down again I didn't want to let my parents down and I suddenly found something that I loved side to that I loved the atmosphere there were some beautiful people in that kitchen and that I had a good relationship with there were some beautiful waiters and waitresses that were on the floor that I loved and I loved the atmosphere of the kitchen I loved the learning about the food.

1:26:07I was learning and that was really rewarding and I loved cooking but the bullying I should never have put up with. Yeah. The only reason I did is because I didn't want to upset, I didn't want to walk away from another thing. Yeah. So I was wrong to do that. I should have walked away and the only time I walked away was when I felt that I was actually able to do my job properly. So I took it for a good six months. Yeah. And it was only after the six months when I got the section down, I knew I was running my section really well. I had another job lined up. but I wanted to prove I wanted to last do my six months and then walk away and that's not that's not advice that's just what I did would you have what would you have done differently or like if anyone's if anybody I wouldn't actually change anything personally but if I was if somebody else was going through what I went through I would tell them to get the fuck out of that kitchen immediately there are so many amazing kitchens out there where that is unnecessary it's not necessary and tell me where they are because I'll wait for those cunts afterwards I killed myself.

1:27:09I love that. On the other side of that, the pressure. I think there's a Danny Meyer thing, which is slow, gentle pressure, which I love. It's just kind of that like, what's the art of that? Of like, not bullying like a cunt, but like just that, which you see like that temper. Because I think there's sometimes, there's got to be a sort of certain energy. Do you know what I mean? I think energy is really important. Like it's hard to, you know, I mean, when I'm, I just try to sort of, briefings, you know what I mean? briefing is a really important thing and I think that when you're pre-service lunch and it's also the quiet times that you've really got to watch out for.

1:27:42When you know you've got a busy restaurant, everyone's geared up and they're ready for a big service and that's when everyone performs. It's when it's a bit quieter, tube strikes. Thanks very much by the way. Or you know something that happens and then you're a little bit slower. That's where I find I've got to get the team already and it's like. So what do you say to them? I just say guys it's going to be quite this an opportunity and I always remind them this is when we drop the ball but here's an opportunity let's make sure the restaurant is beautiful let's do a little bit of like spot checking of everything make sure your sections are absolutely set here's an opportunity for us when we don't often get as much time as we want on each table to engage with a guest let's do it tonight let's let's kind of right what have we got in the fridge let's get those mushrooms out I want to put on a quick special and we're going to do this now yes or do you know what I mean and then it's like come on you're ready you're ready because you can see the energy in the kitchen or you can see the energy on the floor the shoulders are down and everyone's moping around they haven't cleaned the section they're not ready for service let's get the floor done let's do this and it's body language it's kind of come on let's go you know it's almost like the chaos actually makes ironically the chaos equals clarity because you're moving it's like it adds a kind of when you're as quiet is when it's an issue that's fascinating yeah that's me again it's me personally I find that And I feel like if everyone is a bit like, I don't know, you can just look around, you can feel an energy.

1:29:05And if it's like that, I just get really anxious. And I start cleaning and going, come on, come on, what's going on? You said somewhere that you still speak to your old man or ask him questions. What are some of those questions that help you navigate the world now? Oh, my God, it's all sorts of things. Like, I guess, when there's a big move, it's a big life decisions. You know what I mean? if it's like, oh, I'm thinking about doing this or should I do this? And to be honest with you, now it's more family related, to be honest. It's like, I'm lucky to have a great relationship with my son and maybe I might even be speaking to my dad less, but also trying to kind of have the same relationship I had with my dad and my son.

1:29:46I was lucky that I met my dad much later in his career, so he'd slowed down a lot. So I was lucky enough to spend a lot more time with him at that time of his life. I think he was 50 or something when he had me oh really? so he's kind of coming to not the end of his career but when he would edit more time, he wasn't travelling as much and all that kind of stuff so I guess I'm kind of trying to emulate that and have Ziggy as much a part of the business and one thing I love about what my parents did when I was younger was yes I had babysitters and blah blah blah they were very busy but they took me with them everywhere you know I was it wasn't just like brought up by a nanny or whatever I was involved in their adult life you know and Ziggy's very much a part of our life you know he'll be here late night he'll be restaurant openings he'll come to all sorts of things with us what are some of the things you think he'll learn from being in this restaurant environment that other kids wouldn't get do you think well you know what he's smart like he's kind of he's savvy with how he can speak to people he'll speak to an adult wow like really sort of like people are surprised they're like how old are you?

1:30:56Do you know what I mean? That's so sick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's really funny, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a great sense of humor. And he's already, he's funny enough, I don't know who he gets it from, but he's extremely compassionate as well. Like, he's always getting these little awards in school for being, like, compassionate. If he looks around, if he sees someone struggling, he'll never, like, he won't stand for any bullying. If he sees someone getting a bit of stick, he'll stand up for the other kid, do you know what I mean? And make sure that that doesn't happen. Yeah. You know, or someone on a football pitch, or whatever, he'll look after them kind of thing.

1:31:27And I don't know, but I just think, I think he sees my hard work as well and I think hopefully he'll, he takes that on. Like he cooked with me, we had a Christmas here one year and I couldn't believe like how intuitive he was in the kitchen with me. You know, he didn't just, I thought he would just want to be doing all the cool stuff like give me the knife, I want to chop that. Give me the fucking steak, I want to put that on the fire. He was like, are you finished with that? He just became sort of natural. like commie and like I'll clean that up and just doing stuff and getting the dishwasher going and things and I was just like that's brilliant because he was humble he wasn't he just was looking around seeing he had a real eye for what needed to be done not what he wanted to do there's so much in that in terms of so your wife she does the what's her role in business because she was front of house at Le Manoir right?

1:32:15yeah she was front of house she was host she was done waitressing for years what's her essence in this in your restaurant she's very much She's a bunch of people person. She's kind of much more back of house now. Since we had Ziggy and it was full on, she took a big step back from services. But she's a major support to me as well. And we're quite events led as well. So she's still involved in the hosting. When we have big, big events on, she'll be here, make sure all of our guests are kind of looked after. She helps me a lot on the HR side of things. And also just being around the restaurant, she may not be on the floor, but she'll kind of go, oh, look, we need to do something about the bar.

1:32:53We need to get uniforms in. We need to do this. And do you know what I mean? It just has that owner restaurant. Yeah. What she taught you about, like, good service, though. Because I know we're talking about that dance or the pit as you put it back to the theatre. And the dance is like, what's... She's the opposite to me in many ways. And she's calm. Do you know what I mean? So she has an amazing way of, like, if a guest is freaking out, like, that's why I think I could be okay for in a house. And I'm good at, say, talking to people. I'm not so good if someone's being angry to me if you've got a difficult guest if someone's angry to me I'll have to walk away have you ever been like do you ever get combative towards that I would yeah and that's what I mean where she's the complete opposite she can just turn it really calmly she can take it and then turn it and two minutes later this guest is really happy again any examples of that specifically well if someone comes in and they're freaking out and they haven't got their glass right she has just had this it's her body language it's how she talks she's really calming and then she'll twist it in a way she can almost go like someone guy someone's like giving out my champagne's warm or whatever I don't know and they're having an absolute go they could be right about what they're saying what's how they're saying and she'd go oh my god your champagne's warm well I'm gonna go in there and I'm gonna slit someone's throat or you know what I mean wow mate that's so that's so almost like playing it back to the guests as in like you know what I mean I know it but that's it's a kind of that's a bad example it's not probably what she said but she will say something like that's possibly the worst thing that could have ever happened to anybody right now yeah yeah yeah I will give me those glasses I'll sort that right now yes and they'll kind of like she's almost taking the piss back out of them without them realising it that's genius and then take the glasses and then we'll get it back on track and then suddenly that prick is now calmed down yes which is a skill yeah yeah yeah you know whereas I'd go okay sir hold your horses don't speak to me like that or do you know what I mean where she'll just be able to go right okay let's turn this so I read like the Scandi you spend a lot like the Scandi-Irish link like those two cultures I've got a mate who actually is now dating a girl from Stockholm and they've got a really good sense of humour what would you say those when you apply those two cultures together how are they similar and different because I know that's impacting your food.

1:35:16Is it Vikings? Are we all Vikings? I don't know. I don't know. I think a lot of it is, I don't know. Sometimes I think if you're, I'm part of a relatively small, no, very small country, small town as well. Like I'm not, I'm from the city, but I'm from the suburbs. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think, I think in the bitter cold winters and all this kind of stuff. And I think sometimes there's bitter cold winters. there's nice warm pubs and there's music culture and there's like I think sometimes there's a bit of weird sense of humour I think in smaller towns and smaller cold climates and I think then there's a bit of an association there I think with personalities and humour and friendships build very quickly like that I think obviously we've got all very similar produce as well and there's colder climates and trying to how to make you know we've all learned a lot from renee and all those yeah yeah yeah you know nordic countries and how to make you know our ingredients sexy in the winter do you know what i mean and i think well there's also like there's a massive amount of ambition as well like i think because like the eye in dublin's like one of the biggest tech hubs but i've got some of my mates live in um well they now live in like connemara like right in the fucking west but um they used to live in dublin but then all these one of the guys who was on the pod the other way like in Stockholm you've got like Spotify iZell like all these big tech firms are built in Stockholm I wasn't aware of that yeah yeah yeah until I did this podcast with this guy it's like Skype all this shit was built in Stockholm and it's like there's this I don't know this weird sort of ambition couple more things mate so what like South London what's some of your favourite restaurants ooh South London South London South London Packham there's so many great jams in Packham I love Canton Arms Yep One of my go-to places For drink and food The food is off the charts I love The guys Help me out here It's not Larry's From Peckham We're In Brixton I've moved to Peckham No Shit I'm gonna put me on the fucking spot here Naughty Piglets Absolutely love Naughty Piglets Where else where else where else um camberwell camberwell arms um tios tios pizza i love yep as well berberet pizza in in clapham is also awesome where else is good trying to think now in brixton go a few places in brixton as well um Yeah, that's it that I can think of.

1:38:07What about any in Clapham way? Clapham. Ah, I'm loving the fact that Crispin have moved in to Studio Voltaire. Yeah. Very, very good. Love the coffee place, Eight Lane Coffee, just on the common. Love Trude's, the little grocery store there as well. Yeah. It's fantastic. Again, love a good Honest Burger. I know they're big, but they're still great. Yeah, they're great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still great. Final question, mate. What's one truth you believe that most chefs would disagree with you on? Ooh. Most chefs would disagree with me on. I don't know. That's a real tough one because I keep on thinking of these things, like less is more, but a lot of people would say that.

1:38:54Ingredients is king. A lot of people would say that.

1:39:01I'll tell you what one is we're only fucking chefs thing is I have this thing that we're you know I take it fine but I just think like again reference to music we're just cooks at the end of the day a lot of chefs take themselves so fucking seriously you know what I mean we're tradesmen and like you know I think that we're put on such these pedestals I actually would love to see more maitre d's more front of house getting more recognition recognition like like the recognition that ushin is getting for his front of house skills he's like the personality alongside you know obviously ashley and stuff but i do think that at the end of the day we're just cooks we're just cooking food yeah i love that i love when you said cooks we're just tradesmen yeah mate that's been absolutely great thank you so much that was sick thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much