Tom Kerridge - My Crazy Journey to Build a Michelin Pub & Restaurant Empire

34:47He's coming on actually in a few weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they cooked at Sat. So they've learned this amazing infrastructure of brilliant food and understanding how to operate and flavor profiles and growth. But then how do they differentiate themselves from that skill set that they've learned to being individual that you then go, oh, yeah, that's Gareth's food. Yes. and that takes time and it takes confidence and it takes self-belief because cooking at that level you can become quite okay it's safe it's safe I know what I'm doing we've achieved a mission star to take that next step and become an individual suddenly becomes feels risk-taking feels exposing it feels now you're going to get judged on something that's your own and that makes it also like a la oasis you need to be yourself you can't be no one else like that is i think it's the best yeah best but how do you do that how do you be the most extreme version of tom and like move from that one starter too because if it was easy yeah way more than 25 yeah so what what did you do maybe we can this way we can bring in the pirate stuff because yeah how's the pirate on a plate maybe i don't know kittens are run like pirate ships like if you look at it they are you know our analogy my analogy of that is that you You know, you can have there a complete pirate ship of left field thinking misfits, you know, quite often, you know, people with neurodiversity, people with addiction issues, people who just didn't fit in at school, people that cover from head to toe in tattoos, people that come from doesn't matter race, religion, sexuality, it doesn't matter on educational background, economic background kitchens are just full of this wonderful eclectic mix of people a bit like a pirate ship they're not all the same there is so many different people they come from so many different backgrounds yeah from so many different walks of life but then the vision is to create this one space where you're all moving forward and it works in perfect harmony and you try so the skill set of the head chef is to try and make all of these people believe in you that you're then driving towards this greater goal and that greater goal might just be this beautiful bowl of soup the guest is having but you're trying to create that energy in that space um and you're trying to drive that belief so that pirate ship thing comes through and then once you can build this foundation this where everybody's working in synergy and in a beautiful motion you can then start becoming your your own self-belief starts becoming stronger and harder and you can start thinking okay how am i gonna what am i gonna build how do i well how would i do that differently and what do we represent you know the hand of flowers i've always been we always wanted to just be a pub i wanted us to be able to be a place where people wanted to go myself included on our days off and represent food that people recognize and i think one of the things that we've been most proud of is the fact that we might be some people's first experience of a mission star restaurant because they feel that it's safe because it's a pub you walk in there's a bar there you can have a pint of beer and then you can have so that sense of being something for the masses something for you know i come from a working class but i come from an estate in gloucester i come from like my people are like builders and lorry drivers and you know people that work yeah work in trades and jobs that are you know i didn't go to university i didn't go to you know i i have i have never worked at a desk job i've never done i've never had to wear a shirt and tie to wear like I've never like my world is about and then and so essentially I cook dishes that I hope people recognize that they're not intimidated by that they don't feel that they've got a you know obviously there's some form of creativity that goes into it when it becomes at that two-star level but also we there's always safety dishes on there there's always like a pate or a soup or a steak or creme brulee or there's always something that people will recognize and feel that they're in safe hands but then i think when you start going but then how do we do that better how do we make that the best how do we how do we improve so you start going where there's the base level that's what we're aiming at now how do we make it the best ever how do we make it the best ever creme brulee i mean it's four ingredients right so how do you improve that rehearse it and you just practice it again and again and again it's egg sugar vanilla and cream you go right now that you know how do we make that so it's just process on learning a trade practicing it again and again and again.

39:11That's so interesting because almost, as I said, I ate there last week and now seeing it actually speaks to you and how that working class background, that council estate in Gloucester, the trade element, then when you actually eat it, it's like, oh, wow, that is Tom in the dish. Still to this day, the most unique burger I've ever eaten is at the coach. Yeah. So that's like, talk me through that because it's really, well, when this goes out live, I'll put a picture on the screen, but yeah it's essentially and that is so unique yeah it's like i don't know maybe describe like it's kind of it's like so is it so the basically the whole idea of that was how is that you i suppose how do we make that look like the most ridiculous burger in the world how do we make that look like scooby-doo you know like scooby snacks at the end of like scooby-doo the cartoon the old school one when he used to have like a sandwich yeah yeah how do we make that look like that like how do we make like it's really awkward to eat it's not supposed to be like a burger like that we get so much stick from me going that's not a burger unless you can honestly a burger is a piece of like it's a beef patty stuck between two buns can be tall flat whatever you want i mean you can get if you're getting angry about the height of a burger like let's but for us it was then a case of going how do we do it so it's pink in the middle but meets environmental health uh tick boxes so actually that whole process was that put together by nick beater who's now owns starling is a very bright super intelligent so it's about an understanding of the burger mix then cook it on a low, slow temperature in a roll so that it stays nice and pink and it's cooked.

40:41And then we set it and then we take the slices of the burger so they're quite thick. And then it's almost a regen process of frying them so it goes crispy in a burger. So it stays pink in the middle, which means that it's beautiful. It's full of flavor. It's super tasty. But it means that from an environmental health point of view, there's no, oh, you can't have pink burgers. So we can do that. Achieves then obviously sits there. The coach, Nick, won it at Mission Star and the team have been able to maintain that ever since. And it's like proper stack, super high. And then you can get layers and layers of different flavors in it.

41:10So it changes seasonality. You can change a burger. I think it had like a big, was it like a pickle? Yeah, big piece of cucumber pickle in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we pickle them fresh every morning. And then we'll do braised brisket with it some weeks. We'll do smoked cheeses. We'll do whatever. And it grows and it adapts and it changes. But it's always this great big kind of like tall burger with a stick in the top that you have to pretty much eat with a knife and fork. But we serve it on a tiny plate. So it's a real nightmare. Like all of those. like it's just supposed to be good fun it is no it's unreal like i remember having it with my mom and then it's um because i was going to say is that you're meant to eat with a knife and fork it's kind of like it adds a massive wonderful like whack of sort of theater to it yeah yeah yeah exactly it's about eating out should be about good fun it should be about the noise and the buzz and the clink of cutlery and and people having a laugh and chatting that's what going out should be it shouldn't be about i'm not into i am into temples of gastronomy and i love them but even a prime example I was so lucky to eat at the Ledbury earlier this week for my wedding anniversary and you go there and it's a temple of gastronomy it's free mission stars but the front of house is so lovely and so bubbly and fun and like the energy and the atmosphere and everyone's having a nice time you're not like oh god it's actually create energy create fun eating out should be about noise and excitement and people having a good time and that's what that coach burger hopefully brings in Yeah, no, absolutely.

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43:51i interviewed osher at the devonshire the other week and his whole sort of philosophy is removing silent irritants so silent irritants could be kind of you know you walk in and it's a busy pub and they give you a plastic cup for again it just ruins the experience it could be the fork being slightly ajar like you know there's there's little things what would you say are sort of the silent irritants in restaurants and how do you guys go around removing them the one thing i always look at are things i don't know pictures have to be straight that's the first thing i I know it's so many tiny things that is small detail.

44:27And I think like right there is small. And that's what makes great restauranteurs. They're probably the things there's a guest they never pick up on, but there's something that's not quite right. And you can't quite put your finger on what it is. And I think always good, great restauranteurs. If you look at the best, if you look at Corbin and King, for example, to the most phenomenal restauranteurs this country has ever seen in terms of restaurant setup, everything is all geared about the room and the space and how to create energy and what to do with it front of house is so key i think that's probably one of the biggest things that i've learned moving forward from being a chef to being an owner of spaces is that front of house genuinely make people's experiences yes you could be have the best food in the kitchen but if someone front of house doesn't make eye contact with you or is early at a table or is like it doesn't matter how good your food is you've gone actually this well i've had a rubbish experience if somebody connects front of house and it's fun and it's exciting and it's telling you you're gonna have a great time and here's this and this is so and so do you can i top that up or you know it talks you through a process front of house is massive to creating experiences and then all of the little silent irritants yeah could could disappear so much of it is about personality and personality obviously when you walk in it was like you know winter's now coming when we're recording this, you walk into that open, that first room, like where the bar is at the Hand of Flowers and it's...

45:51I walk into me this morning and I can already see that there's a light after this that I need to straighten. Wow. So firstly, I like... I think there's a thing that happens... I think as a restauranteur, you're always looking for the small things. You're always conscious of why there's one light bulb out over there or there's one thing that's happened there. And you're always aware of your environment and your space. And I think that's that's a good thing that front as an operator you have to have you're always looking at what's it's almost like an internal negative bias creates external positive results 100 yeah that's exactly the right way to look i'm always looking for what's the problem here what's the problem what's the problem and you solve it i'm not looking for problems but you're always looking for the little things that make the difference you're always looking for that and that but chefs do that you're always looking for things that the best chefs are always looking for the things that are on the plate well how do i operate or what can i do i want to put a new dish on but that will be an issue because that section won't be able to get that done if that's on at the same time as that or we've only got one, I don't know, plancher that can only fit that on, how do I do that?

46:49Like you're always thinking, you're always problem solving, small ones or big ones and I think that's, but if you can solve those problems quickly, those small little irritants, it creates a much better environment and then all of it can get masked and create good energy if you've got brilliant front of house stuff. how do you get your personality into that part of the of the theatre? Front of house stuff we talked about how you put Tom in the food but how do you create the warmth because that's what I picked up was just warmth, like the tunes are banging as well, yeah music's really important, energy, atmosphere, music's really important, I think the team of people that you pick front of house we're very lucky, at the hands we've got people that, so one of our biggest things, so Lourdes is general manager, she's been with us for 18, nearly 19 years Katie's restaurant manager at the hand is 16 years we've got Carl and Gav front of house who've both been with us for 14 years we've got so many people that have been in that business and then those people also then work and run the other spaces they're overseas I think personality and energy in terms of interior design you have to work with designers that understand you you have to work with an infrastructure you have to try and create a space or a place where you want to be that's it you want to create space that you want to be and that's why it's difficult when people last talked to us about perhaps opening something overseas or doing other stuff or doing never say never but it's very hard to then create a restaurant or a pub space without it feeling that you can visit it and it's your personality that's put into it that's really important okay so you i try to get into all the spaces every week you know even if it's only for five minutes because that's all the diary allows you come in and go hey guys how we doing you your your energy comes into space you can see what's going on you you you can ensure that actually this the room feels great it's no problem what you know there's two things i noticed on the walls one's the shoes yeah and the hands yeah what's the yeah the hands so what's the story behind that 40th birthday so they were trainers that i used to wear all the time what brand of the trainers etnies that was it yeah so i couldn't really see and i've had a few negroni something yeah yeah yeah no they're so my wife's an artist she works in bronze and marble and uh the the actually the front of house the kitchen team and the front of house team all all kind of paid for them to be done as my 40th birthday present so they stole them like so a pair of shoes get stolen i don't even realize they've gone and and my wife got them cast um by a bronze caster so that was a present from the team for my 40th birthday of my own trainers that was almost like the you just you just plodding away and grinding it out exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah so that's interesting and then the grenade was it was it a grenade yeah that's an artist called katie so it's a grenade that was, she did these amazing kind of like chocolate hand grenades.

49:40And then she made, we were going to make some real ones with her. What, like, so is it filled? Actually like the size of a grenade or is it like a thing on a... No, we were doing some small one. We were going to do some small chocolate grenades. And she did, it was, she's, yeah, just an artist that we were very supportive of. So it was kind of like a Cadbury's cream egg kind of thing that we built. We built the fondant and did the whole thing for it. So we did some chocolate grenades with her as a kind of a joint kind of art installation piece. And both myself and my wife are very supportive of the British art scene.

50:15My wife is in, like her two sculptures are sat in here. You know, carriages, we have pieces of her work. One, two, three, four, five, seven of her pieces in here. That's what I wanted to ask you. So Beth, she's a sculptor. I'll take a picture of that and whack that on the screen. What she taught you about creativity? because she excels in her own right, right? Yeah, she does. Yeah, we're both very, very different people in terms of we've built our business together and both of our worlds run parallel together, but operate, we both drop in and out of each other as well. Beth's actually still very much involved in the business in terms of cashflow infrastructure, the banking.

50:54She still very much spends time on the computer in the office at home, making sure that the business is working correctly. is all over interior interior design vibe and feeling but Beth operates in a world where it needs she needs calm and quiet whereas I operate in a world where it needs to be chaotic and decision making and together you end up working in this kind of um connected I mean it's a real privilege to have over the last 20 years to have been in partnership with your wife to be able to make something create something together a business that works but we both work in a very different way and that's and that's really important because you you listen to each other's viewpoints and you understand and that i think that's very important to be able to build a business that also i don't surround myself with yes people but most of the time if i say this is what we've got to do that's how it's got to be done it's my business that's what they'll do they say they'll do it whereas if you say that and beth has an opinion and she's my wife she's not going to say oh yeah okay Now you're thinking, no, that is wrong.

51:59And you can stand back and look at it. And that helps strength. It strengthens the business. It gives it two different constructive viewpoints. Even though we both want exactly the same result, it's good to look at it from different angles. It's the yin and the yang of the calm and the chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, that's wonderful. So let's just sort of sink into that a bit deeper, please. So is there an example of that where the chaos and the calm collide almost? with a business decision or? I think there used to be a lot more when Beth was in the business right in the early days when she was in there helping work front of house and was in the business.

52:38It's now got to the point where, you know, the businesses are successful. We've surrounded ourselves with incredible management and infrastructure and Beth then also being able to go on. I mean, you know, she won a global art award for sculpture. She got a huge piece at the front of the Dubai Opera House. She's got, she's had one amazing show at the beginning of this year in Palm Beach. She's got another one, the run up to Christmas into Miami. Yeah, so she's got a lot, she has a lot going on. So that world of success where you've been able to grow has been amazing. And that's all through development of conversation and talking together.

53:17I think there's always periods where people fall out and people have different opinions all the time in any business. Now, whether that's Nicholas, who's restaurant manager, restaurant director here, or Tom, who's head chef, they'll have different opinions of how to make things work. But it's how you then culminate and work it together as a team to be able to fulfill. Because we're all aiming for the same thing. We all want guests to leave happy. That's it. That's the end result is guests leave happy. How do we get to that point? And how do you negotiate it? And how do you work it through? And so you have to have an understanding.

53:51It's like a marriage. You have to understand. You have to listen. but you also have to be able to express. And when you can find that balance between the two things, then it works really, really well. But it doesn't mean it's always in synergy. Sure. Front of house or, but we found it a lot easier now that our home life isn't, is very separate from our work life. Like it's a lot easier to be. How do you create that space? Over time. Yeah. It's really hard. Like it's really hard. Anybody who goes into business, you know, we opened the hand as far as I was 31 years old. And if you live above the space, work with your wife and you're in it she's your restaurant manager and you're the head chef it's a really difficult starting point but you can grow from that and you build from that and you end up becoming and you so but that isn't going to come instantly you just have to work it out and you have to understand that you know when Beth is saying something or I'm saying something it's not personal it's reactionary to business but then you have to understand the point where you where you separate it and don't actually this isn't about so it's about moving but that can only come with time and experience and it's like anything I didn't like it.

54:52Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love to say to somebody, yeah, it's really easy. It's a lot easier now, 20 years down the line, but it doesn't mean to say that it was at the beginning. So you're captain of this wonderful shit, delivering happiness, making people happy. Everyone's looking at you. What are the things you silently struggle with? Balance in terms of, I operate on a, I always need to be doing something. I'm always late for something else. I'm always, I fill my time with, so I did, So if you have ADHD and then you deal with issues like addiction issues, like I've been for a whole drinking alcohol situation, and you go through a world of coping mechanisms and how do you build on that?

55:37How do you continue in your daily life whilst dealing with all of those different things? I love, it's weird because I love structure with no structure. I love chaos and I love mayhem, but I have no structure in my life. I was explaining to you my life today, what I did yesterday to then what I'm doing today and then tomorrow. And I love that absolute chaos of the timings that are all over the place. And it's where you find solace and structure. So I struggle with some form of escape structure from the chaos world. and sometimes it becomes overall thing, like it becomes quite a huge, and how do I unravel it or unwind it?

56:24So I try to live, I try to block Sundays. I try to, I live my life vicariously through my son who's mad into motorsport and rugby. So great, let's escape into that world. And I love that.

56:39I try to get to the gym every day. Sometimes I won't yesterday and I won't today. So that'll mean that Friday I've got to do something because it will sit in my head now that I've got to get, I've got to get, like I've got to get. So it's trying to find those escape spaces. I struggle. I struggle with that. I really want structure in my life and then I hate the idea of it. So I struggle with those things. I struggle with that. Yeah, well, no, because I've had my battles with addiction. I used to fucking love partying and I sort of, and it got 28, I would like to basically hit rock bottom as I need to sort this stuff out.

57:10And I've basically just threw it all into this. So it was kind of, it was kind of a good escape mechanism. Yeah, so you're now, You'll be the same. So you're completely thrown into this and it doesn't matter if you've got to do it for 24 hours and a thing of, like, because you're in it, this is what I'm doing and this is what I do. Tense focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it went from the hand of flowers, one business with an alcohol problem to remove alcohol from my life to now five businesses, six businesses, stuff. Like, I fill it with the chaos that I bring in, that alcohol was there with, I brought into business and infrastructure and something that keeps the mind just absolutely flying and buzzing and hating and loving and like the chaos yeah i got rid of that and bought in that so you're the same you got rid of the party stuff and now you bring in you bring in it's also like another reason we don't have a studio is because i like like today we rocked up breakfast yeah it's it's i was like this is gonna be interesting rich like but every space we go into it's like a new challenge i need that like fuck me where we're gonna set other cameras and And it just keeps my brain going, which I feel like if I go to one space, I just get like, I did it for like a couple of months.

58:18I just got bored, like, you can give me new ideas. Yeah, yeah, routine of the same infrastructure. So in terms of the boozing stuff, because I've heard the stories about that, like, how important do you think that was to creativity? I think, and I've spoken to a guy called John Hegarty, like marketing genius. So he did BBH, but he designed Levi's. He's a guy basically got Levi's going. He's quite a bit older now. And he said there's something about alcohol and creativity within, you know, within the limits, right? But he says he sort of believes that the advertising industry now has kind of diminished the creative output because we kind of lost the long lunch and we've lost that ability.

58:59He says creativity is a generous and convivial act, which I really liked the way of saying it. How important was the boozing in that period for you? Hugely, massively. If I don't regret it for a single minute. Sometimes I think, I'd love a couple of cold beers whilst watching a football, but the reality, that's not in my world. I can't be part of my world. But not for a single minute do I regret that person and that space or that. Because it was a release from a relentless drive, A relentless of being in the kitchen at 6.30 in the morning, pushing all the way through till midnight every day, driving, driving.

59:40And it was an escape and a release. And it was the massive crash come down of a hugely intense day. And it was like every day was the same. And it was this without without being able to be that intense in the kitchen, I couldn't have that intense escape route. so without that intention if everything was just like six out of ten you we wouldn't be sick we wouldn't be sat in the business we wouldn't we wouldn't be there the business wouldn't be there like i don't like if you if you want just calm seas you're never going to achieve anything if you want to if you want to be the best no matter what you do if you want to achieve stuff on no matter what industry whatever whatever it is you're doing yep you have to be 100 in it and to be 100 in it you have to also then become 100 out of it at some point you need to release that just a pressure valve that gets taken away and mine was alcohol and i mean it's now i don't i don't know it's now in the gym or it's now some other form of chaos that i bring in but it's without a single minute do i not i don't regret that person that that space that place that i was in yeah it wasn't it's absolutely not good for me health-wise it was absolutely ridiculous you know if I was still we wouldn't be here now if I was still in the same space there's absolutely no doubt about that but without that drive and relentless push without the escape so no I don't regret it for a single minute it's funny I did the you know the high performance podcast yes I did that and they always talk about percentage points and whatever you know how hyper focus and all these sort of things and you go yeah yeah but it kind of like my reaction to it it kind of blows it out of the water yeah no do everything get all of that and then go and get absolutely fuck that's what we're going to do after this basically because it's the intense, I love this, my dopamine goes through the roof and I do these things the setting up but then after I have to just fucking get on it basically, it helps me it does help me relax and I think especially in the last couple of years I do agree, well actually I don't know whether I agree with it but the whole alcohol free movement is good but I think it's i think we sort of get into a place place where we demonize people who booze and it's actually like i always say like well you put your restaurant boozing churchill drunk too much yeah to be an alcoholic that's the quote there's a quote around that and anyone well of two right so i think it's i think there is a release in it and it's and it's super interesting what would you say is um so you i remember i think it was it was it was that when you 40 is when you were like right it means to sort this yeah and you just said you almost like took stock on life yeah it's an age point i think yeah that was it yeah i think when you approach 40 i think there's a point of reflection yes you go what have i achieved what am i what where am i at what were you writing like maybe writing or thinking like what views have some principles like this what this is what i need to do to live a good life this is what i need to avoid to live a bad life obviously other than the booze like what would you say some of those reflections were at that no no that whole point then was i need to stop drinking that was a okay that was the biggest thing it was the biggest seeing yeah i thought if i remove that from my life something else can so i i i stopped drinking i started swimming i swam every day i got to the point where i'd swim a mile every day not drink and it was just a reactionary it again it then then became the hyper focus it became the thing and it became right i'm swimming how fast can i swim how quick can i do a mile right how many um and you started seeing the numbers and the numbers start coming down and you start recognizing you're getting better at this and you do so i like so that became the focus of like what how am i doing this what am i doing and i had to do that every day it had to be i have to do that every day i had to do that every day and then that's moved to like the gym or it's moved to what sort of stuff do you do in the gym like a lift i try to lift it like dead lifting and yeah dead lifting is that i try i spend five days a week trying to build all everything else to a one day a week deadlift and you just go right that's where we're so you go yeah i'll try it Okay, yeah.

1:03:38So it's just seeing the chaos into focus. Yeah. It's a beautiful dance. Yeah, yeah. So you go, these are all the other exercises that I do, and they're all part and parcel of it. So what sort of stuff would you do to get a good deadlift? So I do go to the gym, but like not all the time. Yeah, well, obviously you do the leg day, then you do shoulders, and you do chest and you do whatever, because the deadlift is all, it's a full body movement. Yes. So you go, right, so I'm trying to train all of the other bits. And then I've got to stick in a couple of bits of cardio, obviously, because you've just got to keep moving, which is the bit that I hate.

1:04:09So you've got a couple of days of cardio or maybe one day of a HIIT routine. You just get it done in half an hour and just hate every minute of it. And then, so yeah, I'll just go through a process. I work with a trainer and then on deadlift day, I don't have the trainer, I just do it on my own. And so you'll just build up to... Yeah, and then try and get the dead. So then some weeks are really good, some weeks are poor, some weeks you'll do, you know, you'll try and hit a high weight and then other weeks you'll go on up. Because as you get older, like 52, you know, my back feels a bit sore. I've also learned to not push.

1:04:42I've also learned, actually, that doesn't feel right. I could push it yet, but then my back's fucked and I might be done for three days. And I just go, actually, that's cool. I'm good for today. I can walk away from it going. That's so hard though, if you've got that, but if you've got that mind, which is just grind out, grind out, push, push, push. That's almost, you know what you're saying at the beginning? It comes with age, that comes with experience. It comes with experience. Interesting. It comes with going actually now, but just back off that. It doesn't matter. You can revisit again next week.

1:05:11It's cool. Yeah. So, sorry, is your son's name Acey? Yeah, Acey, yeah. Out of all the challenges you've been through, what were the ones that you'd actually want him to go through? Jeez, that's quite hard. Because he's grown up in a very different world to mine. Like, I grew up as a single-parent family on an estate in Gloucester. he's growing up in a big house in Marlow. Do you know what I mean? That's what I'm trying to say, yeah. His world is completely different. He's got so many wonderful opportunities in front of him. But he goes to state school. We don't send him to private school. He goes to, like, it's quite important to me that he understands that he's very lucky.

1:05:54He's very privileged for what the opportunities he's got in front of him. We try and make sure that, you know, we take him to, he goes to art galleries. he experiences nice food and different ingredients he'll be a part he gets so many experiences in his life he goes on nice holidays, he hangs out with you know, other chefs and other chefs, kids but he also, it's really important his world is also recognised he got to instil into him that it's a pirate ship and it takes all sorts of different people and that his world is very very privileged very different so an appreciation um of where of what he's got in front of him it's also really hard to present to a child yeah but it's also really he's coming up to 10 okay so it's really hard to present to a child of like aren't we lucky to have this and he'll go yeah yeah yeah but he doesn't know anything else you know he doesn't know anything but actually so one of his closest friends at school actually um lives in a lives in a mobile home so he spends a lot of time around there like understanding like trying to understand that it's a very different world um he plays a lot of rugby rugby is really important so he hangs out with a lot of kids he plays front row yeah he's a monster he's an absolute unit he's like he's nearly he's he's nearly 10 he's got size eight and a half feet he's like he's i've got little seven yeah i get he's a monster he's in that he comes to that we got we got a little gym at home he comes into the gym he's dead lifting and he's squatting big weight like he's squat he's dead lifting 85 kilo now like as a as a 10 year a nine year old like he's a monster he's a monster like he's like it's like he's yeah he absolutely loves he loves it so but that rugby that rugby space is a really it's a really good place because he's not great at things like he's not a fast runner and he's not mega at football but rugby's like he's mega at so he understands like rugby's a great sport because there's a position for everybody and there's a space for everybody and different kids have different strengths and that team building and it's magic for that and being a part of that rugby three times a week he's rugby so he's you know three training sessions or a game every week and he's like he's being a part of that community rugby i think rugby is such as i played a lot as a kid yeah yeah it's such a special sport for teaching everybody that everybody can have a role a bit like a kitchen you know everybody's got a role footballers essentially are pretty much the same do you know i mean no no i'm just i haven't thought of it it's actually really ironically because it's usually played by um it's kind of an elitist sport but also a very democratic sport in the sense everyone, I hadn't thought of it like that.

1:08:42It used to be hugely elitist, right? It used to be all the best schools. And if you think of the best, I mean, Ace is mad into playing for Harder Quincy in England. If you think of the England or British and Irish Lions front row where you have Joe Marler who comes from a different background. You've got Ellis Genge from Bristol. And these are players that have come from different working class backgrounds that have then made it to the top of an elite sport. like it's changing yeah it's definitely changing there's spaces usually one of my good mates he's actually good friends with joe marler is ollie cohen who does um yeah uh quinn's back because i'm a big quinn's family season tickets yeah going to the games i think it's just the stoops just yeah great great great day out but um one of the things he was sort of saying to me is like well one of the things i was exploring when they came on the podcast was like the lessons from or leadership lessons from rugby i know you played a little bit like what is anything you took from that into the kitchen.

1:09:40I mean, I think that and understand it, but possibly in retrospect, I mean, I stopped playing when I was 17, 18 because I ended up going into a kitchen. So you go, you haven't got time, you know, there's no time on training on midweek or on a weekend that you're like, it's just, you're in a kitchen, but you end up learning. I think in retrospect, you look back at it and you recognize that everybody has a role to play. Everybody has a, you know, Joe Marler is there for pushing, you know, that's it that the other quick kids are there for running fast you know like there's different roles for everybody and you know somebody is a more relaxed calm pastry chef section somebody is all about cooking the meat and fish somebody else is about the time taking creating terrines on the larder section you know there's all those and you have to learn and piece all those pieces together and then the head chef is like the captain that's building it all and running it i think that you very much learn that a kitchen can use structure it's like a rugby team it's It's a lot of individuals that need individual team building and care.

1:10:40But the recognition of the importance of each person's role is recognised very much through, I suppose, kitchens and a rugby pitch. I think you're in a WhatsApp group with Paul Ainsworth, Sat Baines. It's almost like the Gastronomic Avengers, really. Who else is in that? Paul, Sat, Claude, Daniel and Claire. Claude, Sat, Paul, Daniel, Claire, me. yes if you could sort of sum up each person of their genius because i love the idea of like just networks and making the ship rising with the tides essentially the ship boats rising with the tides if you could sum up their individual genius in like a sentence or so which what would it be maybe start with paul like yeah well i think with the six of us um we do a kind of a gastro trip every year where we drive cars through france and eat in beautiful restaurants for four or five days it's mega it's mega we absolutely love it we get it blocked off kind of a year in advance of this is where we're going to do it.

1:11:35Then we spend a load of time planning a route and the restaurants that we're going to eat at, we all enjoy driving. We all enjoy being in that space. And then you look at, I mean, Claire, like is a three-star human, not just a chef, you know, she's constantly representing. She'll come down in the morning immaculately dressed. She's just so sharp, so represented. She represents herself, represents her, business represents, Michelin represents everything. that she exhumes class. She's an exceptional human, a wonderful person. Freestyle human, that's such a beautiful way. She's a freestyle human.

1:12:11She's magic. She's amazing. She's a proper, and she's brilliant. She's great to spend time with. Her experiences where she's learned, where she's cooked, what she's done is phenomenal. Sat is probably, I don't know, the closest to like an Ayrton Senna figure. Really? kind of yeah like he like creative spirit and exciting and you never quite know what's going to come out of his mouth next you never know where it's going to go like like he's you know he has i mean we've all known each other for such a long time and he's got an amazing energy and brilliance and there's always a sense of nervousness that you're not entirely sure where it's going to go So Claude, phenomenal, beautiful, brilliant Frenchman who is big and robust, like he's cooking.

1:13:04But he's also incredibly tactile and wonderful. And once you scratch beneath the surface, he's one of the most warm and gentle humans that you'll ever meet. The persona that you get from the front is this big French. And he is all of those things. But he's also like his godparents to my son. and he's such a magical, warm, kind, gentle human, but also quite hardcore. Yeah, quite hardcore. When you say hardcore. Just as in reactionary and robust and big and relentless and is always looking for the next thing. We both own a race car together. We race together. So we both, we do track days together and we race in it.

1:13:52We have our, so we do endurance races where we swap in and out. Like we're actually racing next weekend. So yeah. So basically there's one car going, what was it like? Yeah. So mandatory, no mandatory pit stops on track. So, so like a super sport series where it's Silverstone, Donington, like Brands Hatch. So you'll go. Yeah, you have to have, yeah, exactly. You do in two hours, you have to have two mandatory pit stops so that you swap, you change driver so you get yeah it's mega we love it yeah yeah yeah track days and stuff like that we're mega that's another way to get your chaos fix exactly it's 100 it's 100 that and it means you have to be in that moment and in that area you can't you're not um you're not um you can't be thinking about anything else because i mean you're going 120 mile an hour so you have to be thinking about that moment there and then not yeah so that's it yeah so so calls like that Paul is incredibly vibrant, controlled, brilliant businessman, amazing at interaction.

1:14:53Everything that you see of Paul Ainsworth, and I've known Paul since he was 18 years old. We worked together for Gary Rhodes. So we've been best mates for such a long time. And he's kind, hard. The one thing that connects all of us, I think, is a hard work ethic. everyone works just relentless relentless relentless relentless yeah being a part of it and then daniel is daniel is just one of the most intense and magical humans that you could come across like every he's like you know smokes fags talks loud buys into the pageant you could it'd be the first one we're in a we went to michelle bra on one of our drives one of our years and he's the first one with the phone and the pictures and the like so excited and excitable like teenage kid about the industry and where we're at you know he's a 50 year old man we shared our 40th birthday together we we do 50th birthday together we've known each other a long time we we're our birthdays are about a week apart so we we spend them a lot of time together and daniel is the most excitable teenager particularly about the industry it's amazing so it's like so when you say he's excitable like about so passionate about the food and the places and the history and and like particularly in french cuisine like a trip through france for daniel is like like it's like food porn and chef porn for him it's just like absolutely full-on amazing and like pictures selfies with the chefs in the kitchen he wants to see everything be a part he's so into it so into it i mean to be for everybody, everyone on that group is a fairly intense human.

1:16:28Like everyone is. Yeah, but that's what I was trying to get to. Was that what's the common, so the golden thread. Common theme is everyone's really fucking intense. Sounds like everyone's quite, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is mega. Everyone is quite full on. And what do you, do you share business lessons or like what's, what's some of the learnings you get from these? Yeah, massively. We all, we all talk about it. We all talk about how can we all get as busy as Claire? That's basically. So, so Claire, how do we make our restaurant busy? and it turns out you've got to get three stars. So you said she's a three-star human.

1:16:56Like, what's the... Like, why is she such a genius? Just thinking that... We're going to wrap this up shortly. She's incredibly controlled. Controlled. She's very... She has huge infrastructure. She knows exactly where she wants to go. There's no... She doesn't surround... There isn't... I'm sure there is some form of chaos or something in her life. She's operated within it like her world, a restaurant, her business world is incredibly busy. her world she's global you know Claire is global she's a monster superstar in terms of that but I think she's she's probably the most calculated out of all of us she's probably the most okay that's that's what I'm gonna do that's where I'm gonna go that's how I'm gonna control this and this is so she she is completely in control completely in control whereas I think the rest of us Paul's actually quite similar to that I think the rest of us are just a bit like fuck it let's see what happens do you know what I mean Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:17:52Foot to the floor. Talk to me about the media, amazing media career which you've built. How did you navigate that? What's been interesting or challenging? I've always been quite comfortable with people. I've always been quite comfortable and always been quite confident in my own skin. So then in terms of when I competed on Great British Menu, it came from Great British Menu. So competing in Great British Menu and winning it, I backed myself to do all right on it. when I got asked to do it. And I was quite fortunate. I won it the first year. And then I backed myself again to go back the second year and won it the second year.

1:18:26And then after that, that was the point where I think it's the right place at the right time. The BBC are looking for, I don't know, someone to do a cookery show. I'm probably the last TV chef to come through since then. There hasn't really been any other, like Nadia. And then after that, there hasn't really been anybody else. If you think maybe it was 10, 15 years ago. The media scene has changed. So nobody's really commissioning a new chef on television. It's always the safety of where's Rick Stein going? What's Jamie Oliver doing? Where's James Martin? What am I doing? Who's doing? I think there's a safety point because television is fairly static.

1:19:10It tries to move forward. But actually, people watch streaming services now. You know, Gordon and his new TV show on Netflix that released last week, week before. Like, I've not managed to see it yet, but, you know, that's where a new age or new things are going on. And people that are, Jesse from Top Draw, I'm doing a thing with him later at lunchtime today. You know, he's the next, but he's not on the TV screen. Do you know what I mean? It's like a big, all of these things are big. So I was very lucky. I think it was the right place at the right time. I think the opportunity came along. I think the fact that maybe regional accent, a representation, always being yourself is quite important, not becoming a caricature.

1:19:51Yep. Like, again, you can, if you are a big character, it's quite easy to become a caricature. What do you mean by that? As in like? Well, it's quite easy to just, like, I am like a cartoon, essentially. I'm a six foot three fat bald bloke. It's like, you are like a cartoon with a regional accent. And I'm a chef. Okay. You know, you can become, you can buy into people. oh no he's the pub guy you know it's quite an it's a quite an easy thing so it was the time and a place but also it's a profession now people think that i put as much effort into media and getting that right as i would in a kitchen like you turn up into somebody i say i don't know how cameras work right i don't know how sound works i don't know so there's a whole world of people tech wise and behind the scenes edited editorial storytelling all those things like sunday i fly out to italy I had a meeting just briefly with someone who's one of the production crew for with filming a series in Italy.

1:20:46I've done Tom Carriage Cooks Britain, Tom Carriage Cooks Spain, Tom Carriage Cooks Italy. And you go in a 16, 18 people there. Now, they've all got individual jobs. You just have to trust in what they do. So and then they trust in me and my job that I will turn up and I will present and I will get energy. And I will talk to a farmer or I'll talk to an Italian producer or I'll talk to a thing and get the information. so I know my role so you go right that's my job how do I do that as best as I can what did you have to work on to get better at media like because obviously you're now presenting great menu like it's huge I think it's in a clarity of pinpoint where I've probably talked way too much on this but try not to say too much get to the point quite quickly make try and be succinct particularly when it comes to a TV show that might get edited down into 24 minutes for ITV.

1:21:38You go, you've got to be quite succinct. You've got to get to the point quite quickly. You've got to manage it because everything comes into an edited point. So it doesn't matter how many words you say. If you say one sentence that's fucking great, that's the bit they use. So work out what everybody else wants. What do they want? What are they looking for from you? Get that out. Or if it was a presenter point of view, a lot of the work from television from a presenter point of view, I do before the cameras are on. That's what I mean, yeah. You're trying, so you meet the guests because most times that you're interviewing people, farmers and producers, they're not on TV.

1:22:08They're not used to TV. It can be quite an intimidating thing. Cameras and all these people pointing things at you. So your role is then spent an hour and a half beforehand chatting to them, making them feel comfy, having a lot. And then when they turn the cameras on, they're already in a zone. So a lot of the work is done behind the scenes to make sure that you can get the imagery and what you need whilst you're there. There's, I've got to say it, there's a quote, which is like, what you practice in private, that you're praised for in public, which I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much of the work is done behind the scenes.

1:22:37Yeah, behind the scenes. A couple more things. So you run Great British Menu back to back. What were the small things you... Because I interviewed Tommy Banks, and I was like, how did you win it? He had a mad story. I don't know, he was a cricketer, and then was in bed, like, he was fucked, basically. And he was like, I need to win this to get the restaurant going. And he was like, the 1 % things I did, he's like, I brought my own pillow. Like, he was like, those are the things he was doing. What were you doing to make sure you won that show, or is it just like... What great British menu? Yeah.

1:23:04I mean, I was still a full-on drinker at that point. So I was, when we were competing, I was cooking as hard and as good as I could. But then when we were finished, when we weren't filming, like when we finished the wrap for the day, I'd be on it. I'd be fucking getting battered and then get back in that kitchen. I was cooking in that great British menu kitchen like I was cooking at the Hand of Flowers. I was at full-on energy, alcohol-fuelled chaos. and that's so that's so i went i went with the attitude is like i was cooking in the hand so that's that's i mean tommy took his own pillow i took 24 cans of stellar in the boot of my car so it's kind of like i mean there's two different variants we both want it like what are some of your favorite like gap like gap i hate the word gastropubs but like what pubs do the best food in the country do you think well i mean there's there's quite a few out there that are all magic but there's two and two gentlemen that i've known for a long long time and have been doing it for a long, long time.

1:24:03And without them, you know, the British gastropub food team would be around. One is Andrew Perrin at the Star at Haram. And so Andrew's food. Where's that? Star at Haram up in Yorkshire. So Andrew Perrin, the Mission Star. One of the first British pubs to win a Mission Star. Represents Yorkshire. Yorkshire food. Absolutely amazing. Solid, robust cooking. A beautiful human. A wonderful guy in hospitality. And a brilliant, brilliant business and he's absolutely phenomenal and Stephen Harris at the Sportsman down in Kent which is in Sea Salter near Whitstable which has had a Mission Star for however long and he just cooks the most magical wonderful food from the area simplicity like he does a dish slip sole with seaweed butter and that's it on the plate and it's just magic and he's one of the most a lovely guy who's so into food, a beautiful pub.

1:24:59So both of them are magic, magic chefs. Yeah, without them, you know, the British food scene would nowhere near be as strong. They're phenomenal cooks. And then what are some of your favourite restaurants in London? Oh my God, there's so... It's mad how many there are now. There's so many. There's so many magical spaces. I mean, genuinely, so fortunate to be in the Lebri the other day. And I haven't been for a while, for a long time. and it was just so Tom Spence he's doing the food there now it is just outstanding individual, unique quirky beautiful so so special exciting, vibrant energy, like magic magic food, Claude I always think is just a phenomenal cook, Josephine restaurants I think are magic, you know they're just beautiful representation of great French cuisine, part of that gastro trip we always call in at Claude's parents and they cook us lunch so we all sit there it's like in Claude's back garden and his mum would have done an amazing lunch whether it was a braise or his dad makes a pate they've always got charcuterie or pate that his dad makes his mum will do something very simple this year it was roast chicken and a salad and a beautiful kind of like flan like tart and it's just magic and that sense of kind of like slightly bourgeois French cuisine cooked beautifully representing the area Claude does so so well the Josephine restaurants I think are magic Neves is a wonderful cook Sabor I think is beautiful Legado the new space in Shoreditch is amazing like wonderful Spanish cuisine Claire I mean Core is just it's just brilliant so we're very very lucky that there's something amazing and brilliant restaurants in London.

1:26:47You can eat any types of, whether it's from French cuisine to Spanish to, you know, the Lebre or Core. You know, we're so, so lucky. Final question, mate. What's one truth you believe that most chefs would disagree with you on? Oh my God. One truth that I believe that most chefs would disagree with me on.

1:27:11Cool. I don't know. I would say that most chefs, I think we all work with the same ethic. I mean, I don't. It's interesting. So, like, so Robin Gill said, kind of to your point, he said chefs are not artists, right? Yeah, trade. They're like you said. Trade. Trade, yeah. Michelle Rue said that the food isn't actually that important. It's the service. And I think he was kind of like a lot of people think it's the food, but actually it's the service and the setting that add up to it. I would agree. Both of those points, I massively agree. And I think you recognize that as you get older. I think a chef, it's very easy for a chef to believe that it's all about them.

1:27:51And don't get me wrong, you go out for something to eat. As a guest, you go out for something to eat. The heartbeat of a restaurant is the kitchen. That is the space that makes it happen. But actually the all-round complete experience that the guest goes away having an amazing time and wants to come back is only 50 % the kitchen. The kitchen may think it's fucking all about us. It's not. It's about everything else getting it right. From the booking process to somebody saying hello when you walk through the door to getting the drinks quickly enough on time and the right one. And all of those aspects are so, so important.

1:28:24So yeah, maybe from a chef's point of view, you're not as important as you think you are. You're incredibly important and you are the beating heart beat, but it is a complete team game. And sometimes chefs get sewn up in there. sense of self-importance. And I think you begin to recognise as you get older that it isn't just all about you and your creativity and your amazing ideas. And everyone bow down to how brilliant I am. Yeah, the icon of the chef. Tom, absolute pleasure, mate. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Love that. Mate, that was awesome.

1:29:08Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes, next door, but one, cat, dog, whatever. Please tell everyone about this podcast. It means the world to me. And I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of Challenger Food and Drink brands. Please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope, and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much