Tom Vincent, Vincenzo's Pizza: Building the UK’s Best Pizzeria in Bushey, A Lifetime of Insomnia, Imagining the “Forgotten Pizzeria”, Persistence, Creating Your Own Hype from Scratch

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2:01Hello there, hello there. Hope you are wonderful. Today's episode is sick. Tom Vincent is the founder of Vincenzo's Pizza, which is categorically the most face-meltingly banging, otherworldly, different league pizza I've ever had the joy of chomping on. It is so delicious. I had the raging hog it gave me the raging horn it is insane um tom and uh his pizzeria vincenzos have been absolutely popping off uh they sell out within minutes every single day um and he's built it in bushy in watford not a known place he's built a real destination people fly in from uh america he's had people from uh korea all go to this wonderful pizzeria but i wanted to dig into the story what's the behind the scenes what's the graph we don't see there's so much in this i mean tom literally has insomnia he's had it for the last 20 years he has a sleep therapist and he does he's building all of this with very little sleep um there's loads about how to kind of he's trying to build this forgotten pizzeria that people have never really thought about before uh he's uh just a lovely guy kind super creative and yeah there's just so much in this brand building lessons lessons in persistence like literally everyone said to him like mate you're not gonna be able to open a pizzeria um in bushy he's knocking on doors literally knocking on doors feet on the street making his dream happen um yeah we talk about music we talk about movie sets and how that kind of feeds into his creativity um it's an absolute joyous episode and i can't wait for you to listen to it um please if you like it share it whack it on linkedin put it on instagram all that jazz and I hope you have a wonderful day thank you hi there guys thank you so much for listening as always means the absolute world to me before we jump into this episode I need a really big big big big favor I have pitched to some massive guests humongous guests and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough please please please just hit the subscribe button on apple or spotify or follow ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations equals hopefully better insights for you which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well so please hit that subscribe button and yeah enjoy this episode

4:28tom vincent um thank you so much for having me in your absolutely banging pizza pizzeria uh me and my friend came me my friend raz came i think two was two three weeks ago mate that that raging hog thing is something I've never fucking experienced in my life. It's so delicious. I was smashing it back. I've been watching what you've been doing from far for ages. So I'm super grateful and excited to do this today, mate. Well, thank you for coming. Thanks for coming to see us. Thanks for coming last week. Glad you liked the raging hog. That was something I worked on during lockdown and, you know, started making the chilli honey with scotch bonnets and just found the right pepperoni for it and it just worked and it's like the name actually I was thinking Raging Hog I wanted to call it the Raging Bull yeah yeah yeah but it's the pepperoni's pork so I thought Raging Hog well it gave me the Raging Horn mate it's like a household name now yeah yeah I thought it was a bit daft at first no no no it's the best no really good and then obviously I think my mate just got the the original the margarita no the pepperoni just the straight pepperoni which was just yeah we loved it and the sauces were all absolutely delicious as well thank you yeah we make all the sauces in-house uh like the ranch dressing and yeah and the chili honey and everything like that we're going to get on to the pizzeria how you've built this but what i'd love to start with mate is i um you said you're obsessed with history i've done a bit of a mooch on instagram yeah so i'm obsessed with history and you said on one video you said this is what this is almost like the forgotten pizzeria that's right yeah and then I've also looked on on Instagram where you have these interesting posts I find these fucking things really interesting it's just like bygone London so you've got the old school laundrette and bushy which is like bygone London I think you've got oh were they all when you scrolled down online yeah yeah yeah you keep going you'll see yeah yeah I go away might see some holiday pics yeah yeah yeah I certainly did Sam but I think I love everyone's got a weird kind of obsession with things and yeah you talked about like you're obsessed with history obsessed with, as I said, those things that were forgotten.

6:41So bygone London is those almost laundrettes that no longer exist. Yeah, that's right. Where did your obsession with history begin, I suppose? And then why are you obsessed with things that have been forgotten and how does that inform what you do here? Do you know what I mean? I think a lot of it is nostalgia. Yep. Watch it like for me. So I love old signs. An old shop sign to me, you know, is like, I love it. like it looks like a piece of art to me and like like there's a there's a picture i've got at home of me my mum my sister and my brother and we're walking down the street at the local shops yeah where where we grew up and uh it looks the same but you can see the old shop signs in it i just love that picture so i don't know like it was only taken in like probably 1989 or something it looks like it was from the 70s i don't know i just like things like that uh films you know i I was obsessed with things like Goodfellas and even Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

7:37If I'm watching a film, a New York film from like, I don't know, the 80s or something like that, I'm looking out, I might be looking at what's going on in the street or what the street signs look like and stuff like that. I don't know why, I just love... It's almost like looking at things, noticing things that no one else really notices. Yeah, I wanted to be a set designer at one point. So, you know, like to go on like a film set where they were making, I don't know, something, I would be obsessed with that. You know, I'd love to get involved in something like that. I didn't. I went down another avenue, but there was a time where that was what I wanted to do.

8:10What pulled you into, what fascinated you about set design? Making things. I've always made things. I was actually at university. I'd done like model making. So like it was set design. It was architectural models and stuff like that. So I guess that and just films really. and then what out of all the films you've watched what are some of the most banging sets in your opinion Back to the Future 2 the film set on Back to the Future is at the Universal Studios and they've used it for like Gremlins they've used it for maybe Monster Squad do you know what I mean they've used it for a lot of films I love that sort of thing you've never seen Back to the Future 2 not the second one wow you know like the trainers that he has the night mags and stuff like that.

8:56Yeah, yeah. The Almanac. I'm just obsessed with stuff like that. Even like the business cards, you know, like on American, have you seen American Psycho? Yes, I've seen that. Yeah, you know, the business cards, like I'll pause that and look at the business cards. Do you know what I mean? I just love details. Yes. Love details. You know, because what I'm trying to understand is how, because there's a lot of detail in what you're creating with the pizza. Yeah. There's fucking, I think that what I experienced when I tried your pizza, mate, is it's like a thousand little things that have all added together and done, create this completely unique piece right yeah but and we're going to get into it but I'm trying to understand the way your brain works I suppose and this so this obsession with um with with detail and then with with the history side of things like because you were your teacher beforehand weren't you I was a teacher for about eight years I've done a lot of things I've done my dad's a plasterer I've worked with him I worked with carpenters I was a I was a woodwork teacher food tech teacher yeah so and then what did you where did the obsession with history I wasn't obsessed with history at school but I mean I mean I'm more like it's more like pop culture history yeah yeah yeah yeah so for instance with the pizzas it was you know about 10 years ago there was a show called The Pizza Show on Netflix with Frank Penelo and he went to he's got it on YouTube as well right yeah sorry it wasn't on Netflix it was on YouTube Yeah, Matt, I've watched all that.

10:19That's all like the munchies. It was the munchies thing. Yeah, the munchies, yes. So he goes to all these old places, the far as Luigi's and stuff like that. And I was like, I've got to go to these places. And then you hear the stories about them and stuff like that. And then you delve a bit deeper. And there's ones that were open at the turn of the century where the Italian immigrants were coming over. They didn't have wood fire ovens like they have in Naples. They had coal ovens. They didn't have double zero flour. They had bread flour. They didn't have wood. They had coal. you know and they used what they had and that to me was like that's a true like immigration story and there's real history to that so i was i was obsessed with those sort of places like here i don't know if you can see that but that's lombardi's that's meant to be the first pizzeria in america really uh it's been disputed it's not but you know like the story but it has a story that yeah what is what is because i read because i read there's two books i saw you reading again I've done a fucking moot and Instagram here, but it was like pizza, a slice of American history.

11:16And one of the other ones escaped me. But what is the history of American pizza? How does it go back in time? How did it all start? I think a lot of... New York specifically, kind of. New York, but everyone says New York, but I think New Haven maybe was like a town, a city that had more of it, a lot more of it going on and people don't realise. Yeah. There's a guy called Colin Kaplan, who's a he's like a university lecturer he does a lot of things but he's um in in um in new haven and he he wrote that he wrote a book on on new haven and um history he's a historian and uh the timeline of that is just so interesting it's actually a lot more detail than the new york and some of the new york ones are like there's a bit like like lombardy's it's um it can be debunked that maybe it wasn't there was one before that or maybe a bakery was making pizza but it It wasn't called a pizzeria, that sort of thing.

12:10Because you went to New York, well, you went on a trip with this Colin boat, didn't you? Oh, yeah, I went to... Last time I went to New York, I reached out to Colin, or he reached out to me, actually, and he said, do you want to come on a tour? Went on a tour with him and had a great day. He took me to all the places, answered every question I had. It was fascinating. So what is that timeline? Roughly, how did pizza come? Well, that on there says 1905. I think the Italian immigrants were coming maybe 20 years before that. I don't know. And I don't want to like, you know, I'm not good with dates.

12:48But a lot of them were bakers. So they were finding bakeries that already existed. Or they were building bakeries. I think they maybe had Dutch people building ovens for them. And, yeah, they just started to bring pizza in. And, well, they were from the area around Naples. Yeah. now pizza in italy wasn't like it was now you know there was it wasn't everywhere it was only in that region people in milan didn't know what pizza was around that time that's crazy yeah and it came to america before it went to the rest of uh the rest of italy what's the immigrants of going over so i understand it yeah yeah yeah i just find it fucking interesting so so the so Naples the Neapolitan pizza that was like that was happening in Naples in a very small area and then it was also and it went to New York before yeah before it went to the rest of of you know Rome and stuff like that yeah it was very it was just it was like a it was like a peasant dish in in Naples you know bakers started doing it with scraps of dough or something like that maybe they were using it to test the oven out and then oh we can make it into a pizza And then, you know, later on, they started adding tomatoes, mozzarella, basil and stuff like that.

14:05Maybe it was just the flatbread first. And that was like Queen Margherita or whatever. They made that for her. But then, yeah, by the time it came to America, it was in the East Coast. So it was in places like New Haven and New York. And it was only within the Italian community there. So no one else would go there. so like you know i don't know but but you know america has this way of of um having great immigration stories and people loving the you know really getting involved like when i went if i'm in new york if you go to like greenpoint for instance you'll walk past loads of polish places you're going there you get pierogies and they're amazing and they're people you know youtubers are going there instagrammers and stuff like that and then it's really like championed if if there was a there's not i can count maybe two polish restaurants i've seen in england people probably walk past them why don't people you know yeah yeah i think soon or later people will pick up on things like that people here it's like indian food chinese food's really popular like later on things like vietnamese and stuff like that but we i don't know we're not as yeah i think london's pretty good in the in the grand scheme of things though i mean i've got so i did a bit of work with um uh an irish company there's no fucking curry house in ireland is there How crazy is that?

15:24They've got loads of Chinese. They've got loads of Chinese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they have spice bags and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was like, mate, there's no curry house. Well, there's like, there is like, it's not like, you know, like now we've got your local curry house. I imagine in the cities, like the cosmopolitan places. Yeah, no, but mate, I was in Dublin. I was in Dublin. Really? And I was like, mate, is there a good curry house? And he was like, mate, there's not really a curry house. That's crazy. I said, this is fun. And they're like big, they're chefs. They used to, they had a sick restaurant, like a pop-up restaurant in Ireland.

15:47and they both worked in restaurants in Ireland. Katie and Jasper, they're good mates of mine. But yeah, but I still think you're right. London is like, because I remember, so like, you know, Shrankin Foods now massive. I remember 10 years ago, it was like, when Bowen Hoppers came on the scene, people were like, what the fuck's that? Even Vietnamese, people like, that was new. And then I think you get these new ideas. I think London. It was a cluster around King's Down Road and all that. And then it comes up, it comes up and people become more um obsessed with with the food and even now i think with you with yourself and crisp you're reinventing pizza here you're at all those stories that you've done that we've talked about in new york and stuff you'll bring them here and you're giving it a whole like pizza's now becoming fucking fucking through through you two guys um it's getting a whole new lease of new lease of life i guess it's uh yeah it's like a new wave of pizza now i guess because like we had Neapolitan pizza here that was like, you know, Franco Manca came and then there was, you know, Pizza Pilgrims and stuff like that.

16:50And there was a few doing New York pizza, but I don't think they were doing it very well. Yeah. But then again, I wouldn't say that mine is New York pizza now. And I wouldn't say Crisp is New York pizza either. His is very unique. But it's definitely influenced by that, you know, because like we're friends and like we were during lockdown, we're both talking about what we're going to do and this and that. and um you know i know new york is the influence and it is for me but it comes you know we're closer to the source of italy we've got the ingredients a lot closer so we we're using like really good top quality ingredients where if you go to new york for instance you'll see a pizzeria that have those uh aluminium pans stacked up they usually keep the dough in the fridge there's there's a new wave of places in new york that are doing it more like what we're doing you know if you see a pizzeria that's got dough trays and they're dotted out like a neapolitan but they're doing a new york pizza you can normally tell it's going to be really good because they're doing so what's the tray so i we if you go to a neapolitan pizzeria they have like trays that are like rectangles and they've got all the dough balls in them yeah yeah yeah okay that's a neapolitan like the way of making pizza in new york they have these aluminium pots where they're where to keep one dough ball in them okay yeah uh but if you see someone one in new york that's got the trays usually to me it's a sign that their pizza is maybe a hybrid it's either a new type of pizza like lindistry lychia mama's too they're all using the trays or it's one of the old ones so like if you go to new haven go to frank pepe's sally's or even lombardi's and stuff like that they're using the old trays as well.

18:30So the ones that are using the metal tins are the ones that are in between. They're like the 1970s. They're like the classic New York slice. They're more like the utility style pizza. For me, if you see those trays, it's a sign that... They know what they're all about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It might be really... Yeah, it's probably better. How's your pizza... Because I believe everyone's got an inspiration, right? So like, everyone fucking... David Bowie's got a quote, which is, the only art I'll ever steal is the only art I'll ever study is the art I can steal from. Obviously, he's the most original guy around.

19:03Okay, yeah. So he's basically saying, he was listening, watching loads of different music and stuff. You put it all together, bang, bang, bang, and then that's Vincenzo's. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So what's the inspirations you took from all the different restaurants in your time in America? But then how did you add the Tom piece of resistance? Well, I guess, yeah, my first inspiration was watching, seeing these, you know the new york places the family run the family run uh new york slice shops yeah and um how long ago was this this was probably 12 years ago yeah and then i started going over there with my girlfriend who works over there a lot so i was just jumping on trips with her and stuff like that and uh yeah i was going to these places and then then i found out about the old ones the old coal oven places they're really old the original they call it the the original i think it's the original five in new york they got patsy's they got uh lombardi's totano's um john's oblique and maybe grimaldi's and these are all like the old school coal oven ones that use the pizza in the trays like i said the dough balls in the trays and stuff like that and i found those ones even more interesting okay and what i found really interesting is that they they're the first generation of italian immigrants so what they're making is they're trying to recreate what they were doing at home yeah okay so that pizza i suspect at that time was really good quality better quality than what the ones in the 70s were maybe more rustic you know uh make you know and i think it got lost along the way as like mass production came along and stuff like that um and then with me my inspiration is those old places yeah okay but i think by default now that i have these good ingredients available to me and i'm using you know them sort of trays i'm cooking in a higher temperature i feel like my pizza perhaps is like that pizza well i i imagine it's like that even though i don't know you know i haven't got a time machine yeah well that's what you said and that's my inspiration is is like in my head to think about what the pizza was like back then what was it like i'm you know i'm guessing yeah that's some pictures but that's my inspiration that's my if that makes sense yeah my inspiration is like a nostalgia a maybe misplaced nostalgia that i'm imagining in my head it's wild but i love that mate it's as you're saying it's the forgotten as we talked right at the beginning it's the forgotten pizzeria yeah and that's something and you said you said i've always been obsessed with like pop culture and pop history going back in time and i think yeah going back almost asking the question of like what would this have felt like with the trays yeah and fucking like how it tastes do you know hey guys thank you so much for watching this video honestly means the absolute world to me um i'd be so grateful for a small fame please it is so hard on youtube channel it is so bloody hard um if you please enjoy these videos just click the subscribe button um more subscribers equals bigger guests bigger guests equals better conversations and hopefully you can learn more as you build your food drink brand thank you so so much well you've got the original five they're still going yeah you've got all the new places is their pizza changing how many how many how many went along the wayside you know that no one knows about and I was like maybe Vincenzo's is like one of those yes yeah so yes and then because I I did a trip to New York I was actually in New York last year staying in Connecticut so not a million miles did you go to New Haven no I wasn't I was literally there I had a podcast over there they've got a really good burger one of the original hamburger places called Lou's Lunch where it's just meat in between two slices of bread it's meant to be the first hamburger in America I think that's been debunked they'll get debunked yeah yeah yeah it's got a lot of history and it is amazing really what's so good about the burger it just tastes like it tastes like a bit of steak you know it's just but it is like it's a round up patty yeah it's a big thick one and they put it between like these cast iron grates and they put it in these like toasters that are 100 years old they've always they haven't changed them and they just put a bit of onion on it and then it's just and it has no sauce but it's just juicy it's really good yeah and then so so you've got these these five original pizza places that have this kind of og style you want to call it that yeah you've got this this harking to go back to the forgotten pizzeria which i think as a concept sick yeah and then how and then yes then i suppose the way yours yours is different is you've got access to these banging ingredients because we're closer close to the thing yeah how did you um like from from your idea of having an obsession with pizza how do you actually go to like taking the steps to beginning to follow that thing um so so yeah so i went i was going to new your back and forth uh meeting up with people you know making connections there's there's what on uh luigi's which is one of the most famous ones there's a guy called geo who uh owns it and um i went and like he gave me some of his time sat down with him showed him you know all the pictures on my phone of the pizzas i was making and you know he gave me some advice told me what was crap and what you know i mean yeah yeah yeah that was really helpful and what did he say like where were you going wrong so i was like oh so this is a 16 inch pizza he's like that's that's 14 inch i mean he's just sort of like don't give me that bullshit do you know i mean but uh yeah he just he and he just sort of said like he gave me some just advice like you know love what you do that sort of stuff but it was little things like that along the way give you confidence to do it because you're going oh can i do it when when will i start and you know i mean and i know what i want to make and stuff like that i get it people come in here all the time the amount of people that come in here and say i want to start a pizzeria and the and um i think they come and they want to observe and see see the confidence that's going on in here because you know we're just flinging them out we're talking to people we're doing this we're doing that and uh sometimes that helps it's just coming in and seeing something yeah well that's why my mates like the guy i came with he like loves fucking loves pizza and what he was interested in how you actually how you get how you learn to make banging pizza yeah did you get like a gosling oven or taught I bought myself, no, I didn't get a gos in the oven.

25:29I've got one now. They sent me one. Yeah. Yeah, they sent me a beautiful one. But their stuff's amazing, by the way, the quality of their products. But no, I built, there's a picture of it up there, actually. That is, I built a brick oven. So I went to Naples and I'm obsessed with, like, making things, like I said. How many years ago is this before the shop? That's about 10 years ago, I reckon. Okay, so this has been, like, a burning passion for fucking ages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, well, I was always into food. Like, there was a point where I went to Mexico and I wanted to make tacos. Do you know what I mean?

26:03Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then it's sort of like, you know, like a spinning wheel. You just stopped on pizza. So, yeah. But, yeah, so I went there and I'm looking at the ovens and I'm getting it. I have to almost stick my head in the oven to have a look, you know, to see how it's built. And while I was a teacher, I was like, you know, researching how to build the oven. I sourced a load of brick fire bricks and stuff like that and then yeah built the oven and um then just started making pizza for friends and family uh you know found a found a guy actually in in America that I was really inspired by called Joe Badia he's got a place called uh Pizzeria Badia and um yeah just started looking at looking at his pizza and found his recipe started making his pizza his way and then I was like I'm gonna take this out I'm gonna change this so i guess it's sort of adapted from from there and um yes i started making i wanted to make this new york style pizza and doing it in a brick oven is really quite tricky how could so because in a brick oven a wood fire oven a neapolitan oven it's super hot you cook a pizza in about 90 seconds which is why it's soft and floppy because it cooks really quick leaves a lot of moisture in there so so that so that pizza is a neapolitan oven what is a neapolitan oven but I was cooking New York style pizza.

27:19Okay, so you were trying to make New York pizza in that? Yes. Okay, sick. Okay, so the Neapolitan oven's not as hot and that's what makes it a bit floppy. No, it's hotter. It's way hotter. Oh, it's way hotter. Yeah, it's way hotter. Cooks it quicker but it gives the moisture. It keeps the moisture in. Right. Now, my oven in the pizza shop here is about a third of that heat. Of that heat. No, no, maybe two thirds of that heat which means the pizza cooks slower. it takes out more of the moisture and it crisps up without burning it you know if you left a if i left my pizza in the apollo oven for four minutes like i'm cooking it it'd be burnt to a crisp um so so yeah so i had to play around with the heat i had to play around with the hydration there's a lot of trial and error in getting it how i wanted to get it um uh but when it come to like the skill of making the pizza i don't know i had worked in restaurants i was a chef as a as in my from i worked in kitchens from the age of about 14 to maybe 19 so i was starting off as a pot washer but then i was making pizza in places like frankie and benny's and stuff like that yeah we sure don't like it's not great pizza i knew how to i knew what to do roughly with the dough you know yeah to get it flat i didn't know how to get it how i wanted it to look you know they they they used to use rolling pins and stuff like that but i knew how to hold the dough i knew i knew what to do and stuff like that so all those sort of things helped and And when I started making the pizza, I basically, it started going right pretty quick.

28:44How so? Like as in? I didn't have many. The first pizza I made looked really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, wow. This is, I couldn't do it as quick as I could do it now, but I could do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I just managed to pull it off. Well, it's almost like all those things that you'd led up to. I'd led up to that moment. It's like you had the woodwork, sorry, working as a chef 14 to 19. You said you used to do, was it woodwork? Woodwork, yeah. You're almost applying those lessons from set design to building that oven. And then like a passion for food. It's almost like I had a lot of potential energy stored up.

29:18And when it came out, it all just came out at the right time. What were some of the other things you'd done in the run-up to doing the pizza? Or some of the other weeks? You said you'd done loads of different jobs. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, like I said, I was a chef, worked on building sites. my dad's a plasterer and see these like this wall here like plastered this wall I wanted like lime plaster you know when you see like an old Italian restaurant or like in a film you don't really see them but you see them in films like the film Leon for instance the walls in that film I thought I want the Leon is that the gizzer with the the glasses yeah the glasses yeah yeah yeah the assassin yeah yeah that's a sick film do you remember about about maybe five years ago everyone in East London looked like that didn't they yeah mate yeah fucking hell you'd be putting knees on like this yeah but the walls in the restaurant had all the pictures on the wall I want it to look like that you know and so I said to my dad can you do lime plaster on the walls and he was like I haven't done it since the 70s you know he's nearly retired but lime plaster lime so it's lime yeah yeah yeah so it's basically where they'd use ancient Rome and stuff like that and you've got like they call it now stucco or venetian plaster you know a lot of like wags footballers' wives might have it in the house you know you'd have seen it but a lot of it's really polished and I didn't want it looking like that so i um i've researched my own plaster mix mixed up myself and i was like dad i need you to help me put it on the wall and he was like it's not gonna work time it's gonna look rubbish and uh he didn't really like want to want to touch it in case because it wasn't what he was used to but we got it on the wall and you know it looks banging yeah i was really really happy with it and uh yeah sometimes i come up with ideas and he doesn't quite you know understand why i'm doing it and now and then later on he's like oh yeah i see you see what you're going for so yes i've done some so i knew i had to do i knew i had to do plastering painting as well so these are your paintings on the wall oh yeah yeah yeah because what i'm trying to do i suppose mate is like link one of the things that fascinates me is a lot of people ask me is like how do people get to where they are like i've got from tangents a lot no mate so those are the best best podcasts so yeah i'm literally that's i'm very scatty so so um yeah because i love trying to thread the needle of like how how how did we work it back how did you get get here so when did you get into painting and what does that what does that give you i've always painted i've always been into art i've always been drawing designing and stuff like that uh i don't know well yeah i always wanted to do some oil paints and um i remember yeah my i'm saying to my dad once can we get some i want to get some oil paints and he said you don't want to use oil paints they're really hard to do get some acrylics instead and i've done that and i didn't really like it i didn't enjoy it but then i thought i'm gonna buy some oil paints and it's actually a lot easier because if you get it wrong you can come back to it the next day and um so yeah so basically when as soon as i started doing these oil paintings that the results were good this was probably the second painting i ever done and it come out it's almost like a fluke but it comes out really good it's like you know if you look at a different angle his eyes are always on you and stuff like that but i've done those who is that that's Paulie from Goodfellas yeah so and you know people come in the shop they go some people come just to see that painting you know people I get Sopranos fans that will turn up because they've heard about the painting and they've seen it and they'll want to see it and people have offered me a lot of money for that painting yeah yeah yeah and yeah fuck off mate it's my painting well if someone offers you five grand for it it's like you can make that money making the pizza in a couple of days but that took me well it took me about two days to do it but then I kept going back over it.

32:49So it was a process for about two weeks. What's, so when I came in with my mate, I don't know, there was a Giorgio Romero, I don't know the name of it. Maroda. Maroda song. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I come in here and set the scene for, we'll paint the picture for listeners is, you know, you're in here with your, your, well I was going to say mates, your team basically. Super small restaurant. That Giorgio Moreda song is fucking banging out. like you're making the pizzas the customers coming in it felt like what is the what is the similarities what's the feeling you get when you paint yeah and how is that similar and different to the thing you get when you bang out pizza well do you know what i mean yeah oh making the pizza sometimes it's anxiety or um adrenaline yes going okay because we open at 4 15 i will get here there'll be people outside from quarter to four but they'll say we've come we've turned up from manchester and it's like great there's a pub next door can you give me because as a chef you need you need like the ritual you need to go to the toilet you need to uh make sure if you've got your mise en place set up you need to maybe sit down for a fight i don't smoke but you know have a fag or whatever you've got to do i don't get that here so and then it hits you know and then people are turning up and you're doing it on adrenaline and it can be really enjoyable but it can be really draining as well but with the paintings before I had the shop I was doing this at a pub and when my sort of tenure ended at the pub I was out of work for about a year and I was planning the shop I was looking for a premises and that's when I started doing these paintings and that was a lot calmer for me that's a real calm time in my life you know I didn't work just had the money I'd saved for to start this shop and some of it was dwindling away because I was like living off of it as well but I would just be at home put some classical music on get the easel out and start painting these paintings you know so that was very calm and that was I look back on that part of my life and think oh man I'd love to go back there I would love to do some more paintings I'd actually love to be a painter yeah yeah mate that's sick and so is that other one yours there yeah this one here what's that one that's that is this one i can't claim the full credit for because this was on the front cover of the new yorker magazine yeah so this was this is my rendition of someone else's painting it was on the front cover of the magazine and i was fascinated by it and uh i was like i want to paint that so so yeah i just had a guy painting it yeah it looks amazing but yeah but that's been done before but this one's a complete original um again oh when we talk about films so you see that one up there the atlantic yeah that's like a fictional magazine from the uh the ghostbusters film the original one yeah and you know those sort of classic um institutional magazines you get like time magazine and stuff like that that's like a fictional one of those and when i was a kid i used to always pause the film to look at that and then i try and draw it you know so when i saw the new that's your drawing no that's not my drawing no no but that's i found that on the i found that on online it's like a so it's like a uh a fan art thing or something of of from the film yeah but when i saw that with the new yorker on it i was like i want to paint that so yeah i get fixated on things yeah yeah same here like what was it that pulled you to that painting like what was i like for me i like the um i think yeah listeners can see it on this it's that one there yeah um what it's the it's the for some what's pulling me to that is is the brown doors and the brown walls i don't know why but it is like what pulls you what pulls you to that painting yeah it looks a bit mid-century i guess the uh decor but um yeah well it's it's tony soprano with his uh with his therapist isn't it and he's walking out the door so see you later boy like i said that isn't my that isn't that i painted that and uh but that's not my uh original idea for the painting you know someone else's and then when you talked about the stress of service and stuff like that and how do you because i think lots of people want to as you said you get those people coming here saying i want to follow my passion into you know whether it's pizza or tacos or painting there's often there's often like a massive bit of stress that people don't really see i've got this right there's so much ag involved this people think it's a two-hour chat it's like there's hours behind the scenes yes like what was what are this what's been the fucking hardest day on your journey mate um where you just felt like some days i'm sick and i can't i feel like i have to come into work and i feel like i'm so run down or i'm suffering with fatigue and then that will be the day when people will turn up someone from new york will turn up or connecticut or someone from scotland or manchester and i'll tell them what the story that i'm telling you today maybe five times over the counter whilst making pizza which i love doing but when you're feeling ill you know sometimes it is hard and there's days like that once a week you know but saying that I'm blessed that people come that want to they want to know this and you know they want to know the story and Vincenzo's wouldn't be the same without me I guess me talking to these people over the counter the cranky pizza man whatever I don't know how they how they see me but that's what I feel like sometimes yeah yeah yeah well I saw it I saw it with you when you were here the other day but it's like the authentic raw passion yeah like someone's calling like look I can't change you didn't swear but you're like mate I can't change your order and it's like it's full fucking pays pays pays like people are coming in I remember we were sat here there's a guy being like mate I've come all the way from Crystal Palace you're like sorry mate we sold out in three minutes that's constant all day we're turning people away and it's always people that aren't following us on Instagram that are turning up and I was like you're not following us on Instagram they go no why I say well because we keep everyone updated we tell everyone we're sold out and you know yeah but people are recommend it's word of mouth is amazing people say oh i was recommended you and i was like didn't the person that recommends you tell you that we sell out before we open you know that'd be really helpful if they've done that but no but i want to get and we're definitely going to get on to the like why you keep it such limited numbers per day i think it's genius but i'd love to talk but go back into some of those harder days okay um because just because the example of it yeah because i remember you saying to me before we hit record like you're doing all of this and you said to me you've got like you struggle with insomnia yeah which I just think mate you're like a fucking superhuman pizza slinger like if I how do you like when you get here I don't think that's what I'm trying I'm trying to paint the picture quite literally of do you know who Theo Von is the comedian no he's a joker mate he's just hilarious but he's like he's so funny but he's got a quote which I actually think is really good it's like once you achieve your dream you've got to actually do your dream yeah which is actually people think oh my god you're just you're banging out pizzas all day like you're following your dream your passion got this guy coming to photography photographer photos take photos uh tomorrow like you know you got chasing status here like but i want to get into the hard days like yeah and you struggle with this insomnia so when you wake up in the morning or if you wake up if you haven't gone to sleep what what do you feel like and how do you just keep going yeah it's hard like the minute you wake up you know there's phone calls there's there's messages on instagram there's emails and it's just it's you know you're running the business plus like employing nine people so being an employer's a full-time job i do the social media i do everything but yeah the insomnia is hard um i think if i slept every like eight hours a night i'd probably have had four shops by now you know i i would have moved a lot on a lot quicker but um you know we're we're here we're just we're selling out every night we're turning away so much we're just because we're at max capacity but yeah the insomnia is hard yeah yeah and you but you seem to be very stoic about how you just kind of get on get on with it yeah yeah there's no choice i mean i'm in too deep now yeah yeah yeah and uh yeah you just gotta keep going i know i've got i've got um responsibilities i'm an employer you know i can't i've got i've got i've got staff that that that you know need yeah yeah and how did how does how do you mitigate the stress with that or like I'm a very bad delegator but I'm learning and I have been blessed with amazing staff yeah from day one um one of my guys he's been with me since the beginning and since we opened the shop and he's always like been right by my side and now he's he's amazing and a pizza maker and starting to give him responsibility and but I didn't know how to give him responsibility anyone you know it took months of him just watching me and like just being by my side before I could even and say right do you want to make a pizza because i didn't feel like i had a second stop and show him because it was constant and then the amount of people coming in and talking and and i was doing i was juggling so much it was it was really hard but and how did you get because how a lot of people listening to this will have their own business and stuff and they obviously one of the common things is like how the fuck do you delegate how did you get good at like separating that i'm not good at it i'm still bad yeah i'm a complete martyr i'll do all of it if you know like i find it easier to just get bury my head and get on with it then then stop and think and go right you should do this you can do that I don't know it's just not in me but I'm starting to learn you know I've got good people around me my partner some friends that will say Tom you know slow down do this do that you know why don't you why don't you ask this person to do that and I will but um takes a while for me to to realize that i need to do that you know and what so on that period of you cooking making these pizzas in the pub you know finding finding this shop what has been some of the what's been a hard period because i'm trying to add some reality to like you see you know i eat this banging pizza but there's a lot there's a person behind oh well behind the scene what's been the hardest like moment for you from the minute i was at that pub i was always looking for somewhere around here.

42:57Where was the boozer? It was just down the road. It was called Loda Hay Pub and a little hatch. It was like perfect, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I came to the end of being there, I was looking, from the time I was there, I was looking for a shop around this area. And what's hard, it's really hard to find somewhere, you know, unless you've got a letting agent or something like that. But I'd find an empty shop. There'd be a sign. I'd phone up. You just wouldn't get anywhere. kept me getting dead ends or a lot of near misses like I found I found I found the perfect shop but the council wouldn't give me permission to put an extractor in or the residents were moaning about the parking or something like that and it got refused things like that you know it's really hard people come in here all the time why haven't you got a bigger shop why don't you get a bigger shop Tom and it's like it took me two years to find this place you know so you have no idea how hard it is for someone who's on their own you know I don't have a partner I've only got one head that's doing everything so it's really hard to find somewhere so yeah but being like like I would it would be great if I had a um if I had a a partner you know someone to share delegate share half the jobs with but I don't and how did you not give up on your because loads of people in that situation be like right I can't find anywhere the dream gaff's gone how did you like what was your what was your dream that was pulling you through all of that because i'd already built up the brand i'd already built up i know i already had the brand i had the following in the pub i'm probably built up 7 000 followers or something around that time people were still people were coming to the pub from all over london uh all over the country then you know so so but i knew i had something you know yeah and then what spurred me on is other ones was popping other people were popping up doing similar things you know other pizza places yeah and i was like you know oh you know i know i've made a mark now i need to get back into it you know and um and uh yeah so i was like yeah i can't i can't leave this you know there was the plan was always keep going i never i was never going to give up but it was just hard to find somewhere and um yeah there was a point where i thought i'm never going to find anywhere you know uh or yeah so i found this place and i thought this place is tiny it's not gonna be big enough and it's big enough to to have a good business but it's not big enough to meet the demand well that's what I was going to say is and we're going to get onto that in a sec demand bit because I'm like kind of it's a ballsy move to say to turn people away yeah fuck like but I suppose the beauty of it is that it creates this like scarcity and it's like the hype and people are like oh did you get I remember straight away I was whacking all over my Instagram like I got my mix on some Vincenza yeah yeah well people people think it's a marketing strategy there's been in comment sections and posts and stuff people have been saying oh it's a marketing strategy scarcity market and stuff like that no it was it it was just my mixer is so big i can make so much dough i can run the mixer twice but then i don't have anywhere to store that dough you know we've only got so many fridges um i can't get a bigger mixer because i don't have free phase power the bigger the next mixer up that I need needs three-phase power it won't run on the power I have in this shop the next bigger oven I need needs not only does it need more power I need more space there's no more space in here so we're restricted with space and power in this shop then the next thing I guess is the people that moan that say Tom why why don't you make more pizza when are you going to do this when get it out they only want it at seven o 'clock you know every night they don't want it at four o 'clock or eight o 'clock, you know?

46:43So it's between the hour of say 6.30 to 7.30 or to eight o 'clock in that window, that's when I reckon I'm turning away as much or more than I'm taking. People do not stop walking in from all over the place. Phone don't stop ringing. By the time I finish, I'll check my phone. I'll have WhatsApp messages, text messages, emails, Facebooks, Instagram, all people trying to order a pizza, you know? So, and then God knows how many people have gone on that website, you know, on my store kit and and we don't know so turning away a lot but i cannot make any more the oven won't fit any more in there and a lot of them want it in the hours that where even if we did make loads more you can't fit any more in from the hours of 6 30 till like eight o 'clock without having a bigger set up bigger oven a bigger production line of chefs it's almost it's a blessing and a curse it's a blessing in that like it's creating i know it's not a marketing strategy but it's creating that scarcity that...

47:41I mean, I embrace it now, I guess, because... So don't have to give exact numbers, but how much cash do you reckon you've... ballpark, you're turning away sometimes a week? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. If you said to me, how much did you really turn away last night? I'd probably say five grand. I don't know, but an estimate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you said... Judging from the people that are walking in, phoning, and perhaps who's going on that website and going on, it says sold out. yeah who knows yeah and then you said that you if i could sleep eight hours a night i would be at four stores yeah what like why well i think if i if i had a lot more energy um i'd i'd have this place running you know spick and spam without me and then i'll be out there finding the next place you know and then finding the next place and just rolling rolling it out is that yeah what's So, yeah, what is the pizza dream, mate?

48:36Well, I think I'd be an idiot not to try and open another one. I was talking about inspiration. I was always inspired by these places in New York, like the fire and the old guy working in the pizza shop and stuff like that. And that's a romantic idea. But in reality, I don't want to be an old man in this shop. I don't, like, I think it would kill me, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, as romantic as it is, I think it's best if I do learn to delegate properly and roll out another one. Here, it'd be great if I could have bigger premises here because the local following here is incredible, plus people coming from all over.

49:21But, yeah, the next move would be in London, I guess, somewhere in London. Do you go into London? Yeah, you've got to decide, though, whether you want one of them prime locations where the rent's ridiculous but you're going to be so busy or somewhere more, I don't know, like a little village. Not a village, but somewhere like London. Yeah, I was going to say, because I was driving through Bushy, what is the advantage and disadvantage of being not in London? I don't know. Here, it's densely populated with residents, so a lot of takeaway. It's usually a takeaway with a few seats, you know. Yeah, it is.

49:54But the amount of takeaway we do, if you could do that in a restaurant as well, that would be a great facet to the business. But then you don't want it to, you don't want people, I've been to certain places before that do that and the door keeps opening and you get a bit cold and stuff like that you'd be you'd want to find somewhere that has maybe a side door or something yeah you know I don't know like something like that yeah yeah yeah and then would you would you go into would you go into London do you think yeah yeah I think I would yeah yeah yeah yeah was people coming from London every day all corner of the room well we came from Canary War from weekend yeah yeah yeah yeah well that's what I was going to say is you've had so many people you've turned away what's the furthest someone's come most weeks there'll be someone from New York Canada one time I had two people come from Connecticut in the space of 40 minutes that didn't know each other things that has blown my mind usually I call it pizza tourists they usually come mainly on a Sunday we seem to have loads but yeah I don't know people like people from all over Europe but they'll be in the country mainly you know there might be someone that's oh they're the same with family and they've heard about it they just have to come you know yeah they'll turn up but people a lot of time from Scotland Manchester stuff like that that's fucking sick Bristol Wales how did you I want to go back to something we were talking about at the beginning but that guy Colin like and the history and kind of some of the key moments that happened in like the kind of the cultural explosion of peace in the US and New Haven, like what were some of those things that happened?

51:43Well, I guess they're finding what they had around them, sort of ovens and stuff like that, using them. I don't know. Becoming marketing geniuses, Frank Pepe in New Haven, he was like a marketing genius how was he a marketing genius he started like a a very small a bit like have you ever seen the film The Founder yes brilliant film yeah yeah Ray Kroc who did McDonald's yeah yeah with McDonald's it was like huge but he had those sort of ideas yeah you know on a very small scale like if but because hamburgers were so Americanised back then McDonald's went went crazy but then I guess Pizza Hut done a similar thing but what what I'm saying is he was that frank peppy was doing like that sort of marketing but just within new haven there's loads of like ads in like the yellow pages uh things like that he would he'd he had photo shoots of himself you know all dressed in white with the top hat and the pizza and stuff like that and he was just doing it for his local community but you know he had the he had the right idea so i guess there's things like that but um yeah i mean i i'm i'm not interested in pizza hut and and how they went you know like like although i guess if there was a documentary made about i would i have actually seen stuff on youtube about it so i guess i am but for me yeah i just the way the way it sort of spread around the east coast so like new haven new york stuff like that boston and it was just uh yeah just using what i had what i find so there's so many different types slice types of slices of pizza yeah so you've got um yeah maybe you can help me out this way okay so you've got like yeah go for it so you've got the so new haven and new york pizza is quite similar the old school stuff that's really thin isn't really thin big slices and stuff like that um and you've got new jersey and stuff like that it's all quite similar except new york evolved to be more utility sort of style in the 70s 50s the 70s and stuff like that so when you say utility style like you know not as much character on the pizza more perfect looking okay yeah but you know the old school ones they're like lombardy's and and um they're closer to what they've got in new haven and stuff like that although new haven is known for its real char sort of almost some people will say it's burnt but my my pizza has that characteristic as well yeah yeah it's banging yeah i know a lot of people around here like in england now are like going for that sort of look as well but um i guess then you've got like detroit style pizza that's thick Yeah, it's like a pan pizza.

54:17Yeah. Square. It's a bit like, you remember in the 90s, although you're probably too young, but like Pizza Hut was bad then. Or from what I've, my nostalgic memories of Pizza Hut were better. It's a bit like what Pizza Hut should be. You know, it's a bit thicker. It's got more of a herbaceous sauce. Cheese all the way to the edge, but it's in a square pan. But it's a way better quality version. Yeah, so Detroit, so I interviewed this DJ who's been, he's a um he's plays in our beef all the time lived in detroit actually but he's got a food blog that's why we end up talking but he was basically saying detroit is where house music started yeah techno started it's where motown started yeah and it's like this really deprived area uh notoriously kind of just incredibly poor um massive like racial divides yeah but then it's created some the most amazing things in the world yeah yeah house music was the end of disco era wasn't it when they just started looping it over yeah yeah yeah then also Ford the Ford factory was there so Ford came from Detroit oh well they started making the pizza in these blue steel pans and I think they came out of either the Ford factory or one of the car factories they had these blue steel pans where they kept nuts and bolts in and that's why I was like yeah but why why do you think why is it thicker the crust the base Well, in New York, you've got grandma or Sicilian pizza.

55:39Have you ever seen the ones? They call it a square slice. Is that Princess Street? Prince Street is one of the more famous versions of that. That's banging. It's a version of that. Yeah. It's a version of that. But yeah, it's just a version of that, I guess, the Detroit style. And that's thicker because of the... They're using more dough. It's like a focaccia. Yes. Have you been to Ramona in Manchester? No, I haven't, no. Mate, that's banging. I did a through a sort of party there for the podcast oh really up in Manchester yeah we had like we did an event with the co-op and those the brands came but I've been there twice it's fucking good it's not I mean completely different to your kind of pizza but it is really good so you've got that and then you've got those east coast what other styles are there well you've got yeah you've got the Sicilian or the grandma squares but you've got most New York pizzerias will do a round pizza you know like pepperoni margarita white pie and they'll do maybe a grandma or a Sicilian as well.

56:36And then when you go across other parts of the country, are there any other slices? Oh, yeah. In New Jersey, they have tomato pies, which is similar to the old school cold oven where they put a sauce on top. Because a lot of the old cold oven places, it's got like a dry heat. So they would put cheese on and then they put the sauce on top. We used to do it like that. I used to do it like that when I first started. and I just changed but it was just something I experimented with wait so what did you do so you put the so at the moment we got you know you get your pizza base you put your sauce on and then you put your cheese yeah but if you you can put your you can do it upside down so you put the cheese on and then dollop the sauce on top and they started doing that in the coal ovens because it stopped the cheese burning it protected the cheese and it's like old coal oven thing well does it change the way it tastes yes great you get more pools of sauce yeah and you get like and sometimes it can make the pizza if you get the balance right the pizza might come out crispier sometimes if you put too much sauce on you know you got to get it right then you got Chicago pizza what's that Chicago never had Chicago pizza but because I just remember I know they're horribly bad but those Chicago towns as a kid were fucking banging they're so not good but like when I'm hung over just whack two of them in the oven eggs were crispy so banging from what I know a Chicago pizza the deep dish one it's almost like a pastry base and it's filled they call it a casserole something like the new yorkers they are it's a casserole but um apparently it's a bit of a tourist thing oh really the real chicago people the real the real locals apparently eat uh bar pies so or tavern pies so basically it's like a like a thin crust pizza sauce to the edge that's cut in squares i've never had one of them either but to me they look like a frozen pizza yeah yeah yeah they look a bit suspect to me is there any other like weird pizza places like as in is there an LA type of pizza LA I think has a bit of everything I think they tend to do more healthy I think they're at the barbecue chicken pizza I think that was invented in LA and stuff like that but whenever I've been to LA I've always eaten like I've been gone for like the tacos or the burgers but never had pizza in LA have you had an out burger yeah yeah yeah what's it saying because I was asking have you never been mate I don't think I've ever been there no I think it's overrated to be honest really I think maybe Shake Shack might be better Shake Shack's better yeah you know it's got something about it I mean when you're in California like the the vegetables the lettuce taste good you know they have really good produce there so yeah I mean it does work the chips are a bit a bit hard but yeah now there's a place in LA I like called the Apple Pan Apple Pan Apple Pan yeah and it's like an old, like, you know, like a counter, counter where you sit at the counter and they just, like when you, if you order ketchup, they go, they squeeze it out for you and give it to you and they only do like two burgers, apple pie and maybe a tuna sandwich or something, tuna melt or something like that.

59:40Like I can't remember, but that was really good and the reason I, whenever I go to places, I always do like research, you know, so I knew I was going to Los Angeles and I thought what was that place I heard about once and it was called the Apple Pan and it was do you remember Beverly Hills 90210 you're putting out all these old films son there's one that was probably your age group but there was one that was out in the 90s and I remember watching it and they were in this place the Apple Pan and it was an old diner and I was like we don't have places like that and it stuck in my head so when I was doing my research for LA I saw it I was like oh it's a real place so I had to go there and that was that was way better than in and out there the I went to I went to I stayed in Bushwick with my mate last year and went to a place called Rolo's which has been on that rings a bell it's like mate hands down the best burger I've ever had really well yeah no I'm not even joking so you sit at the bar I went before I got on the plane and the burger comes like a massive pickle yeah yeah massive pickle and I was just like and then they come with these chips with like it sounds fucking disgusting but this peanut sauce really like a satay yeah like a satay sauce on these big, thick, hot chips.

1:00:50Oh, wow, that sounds good. And he was like to me, mate, he's like, mate, you've got to go to this Rolo's place. I was like, whatever, yeah, whatever. And then anyway, you know, like, I think it's either Munchies or Eater, you know, they do like the behind the scenes. Oh, yeah, yeah, Chef's Night Out. Yeah, yeah, it's not the chefs. But that's, I want to talk to you about that. But the... We should do one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'll just take this. But the, I can't remember what it is, but they went into it, it's like they're carrying these massive fucking cows or like, you know, yeah, downstairs, all the beef and stuff.

1:01:19And they were, they made the burger and they went into all of this stuff about how they produce it. But the burger was just insane. Would you say, what do you think, how do you think the food is different and or, yeah, what's better about the food in New York and what's worse versus London? I don't know. They don't have to do a burger. Do you know what? I've had it with smash burgers I don't like this is what Stu from Blackbird Burgers yeah I'm not mad on smash burgers like you know there's the new one in Soho it's alright but like in New York you can get they've got a lot of smash burgers in New York but there's a lot of old ones there's one called Joe Junior and I love it it's his diner and the burgers about that thick put a crust on it serve pink like juice when you bite into it the juice that falls out of it it's just so a bit like there's Red Hook Tavern which is a new one which is I haven't had that but it's meant to be amazing but this is like one of the originals probably what these places were inspired by what is it how does it do it just bun just cheese American cheese bun pickle big pickle on the side and then they say they call it deluxe comes with lettuce tomato and onion you know and fries the fries aren't nothing to scream about but the burger is just amazing you know it comes in a squishy bun you know like you've got brioche buns and all that you know like and Martin's potato rolls and all that But their bun is just like a, it's a bit like a Five Guys bun.

1:02:42Yeah. Which I do like those buns. And it's just an amazing burger. Joe Junior, yeah. And, but yeah. And then there's another one called the Brindle Room in New York, which is really good. It's quite underrated as well. A lot of people, people know about it, but it's another underrated one. It's not, it doesn't have to follow in the like Red Hook Taverners and stuff like that. But yeah, I don't know. What are some of them? Right, so the difference is. Yeah, go on. I think Black Bear Burger is the best in London. I would like to see them all a little bit thicker though. just that little bit thicker so it's more like it gets that a little bit more juicy a little bit more pink as in Black Bear yeah yeah there was one called Stokey Bears it went about five years ago just disappeared and that was thicker yeah and it was amazing you'd go in it was in Dalston or near Stoke between Stoke Newton and Dalston and you'd go in there it was a bit of a greasy you know like the floor was a bit sticky in that but the burger was just unbelievable and I don't know what like one time I went in there he had like a hairdresser in the back like a joke yeah it was a bit like you know but it was oh I'd love to love him to come back like the guy I don't know the guy who does it who did it but I know people that know him and they said he just decided to call it quits but yeah he was my favourite and then now Black Bear came around I think that's the best mate the wings they do because I was talking to Stu about his sides so in the Canary Wharf they just do the main burger they do like three burgers how many how many have they got now they've got it says five and a half oh really yeah yeah yeah so the half is like you know like the what's it called the it's in like market halls do you know what I mean it's not in the main it's not it's own restaurant basically but he was saying he was famous for the sides I had the maple maple sriracha chicken wings which is just absolutely banging super crispy I went to last time I went was in Brixton.

1:04:46Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what would you, some of those, what are some of the weird kind of, we talked about, was it Joe's, what was it called? Joe Junior. Joe Junior. Yeah. What are some of the weird pizza places on your trip to New York that you found? Like, how are they doing things that you like, you went in there and you were like, fuck me. Well, you've got the classic ones that keep it really strict. Like I said, they have a round, they have a margarita or white pie, pepperoni. That's it. Yeah, a couple of grandmas. Some of them were doing like buffalo chicken on a pizza barbecue chicken yeah and I would never eat those ones you know ziti pizza with pasta on it and stuff like that that one looks alright is it like a pizza with pasta baked ziti yeah so it's got like a pizza with like penny pasta on it and cheese melted oh yeah that'd be fair if you're proper hanging that sounds absolutely hanging yeah yeah yeah those ones I just look at them I don't eat them you know but yeah I don't know I don't really do like pineapple on pizza or people come and ask you for chicken and we don't do it we've only got seven pizzas on the menu yeah what have you experimented with that's never got onto the menu like what's the furthest what's the furthest you've pushed yeah we have we have a few off menu items that people everyone wants them oh what are they vodka the vodka did you have that no I didn't have that the vodka sauce which everyone wants I've done it for like I started doing it for content creators they'd come in and say make us something a bit different so I'm going to do it and that's my that's everyone's favourite but we just don't when we get to the next place we'll be doing that that'll be on the menu all the time done a lasagna pizza so it's like a white base which is like ricotta cream base and with ragu on it and like garlic butter around the crust yeah that's amazing that sounds so good but it's too much it's too much prep for this sort of shop I find there's not enough space for it so yeah people are asking for that all the time we've done that we've done a collab a few months ago with Forno Bakery in Cambridge Heath yeah really cool bakery and we've done the lasagna pizza we done just a classic margarita we done the we didn't do the vodka pizza we done the we done a penny vodka because they make their own pasta so they made their own pasta then we eat the fresh pasta we done the penny vodka sauce and and we done a muscle pie so in New Haven they're famous for the clam pie clam pie yeah they shuck fresh clams onto a pizza it's a bit like a really really like amped up garlic bread with clams on it so what they take the clams out the shell yeah okay yeah There might be little clams or there'll be big ones that they chop up.