Top Negotiation Secrets from ex-Dragon Sarah Willingham from Dragons Den

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started. Hello there people and listeners of the Helmhury Podcast. I'm absolutely buzzing to welcome back Sarah Willingham onto the podcast. Sarah's had an absolutely glittering and illustrious career in food and drink. Sarah was head of international at Planet Organic sorry Planet Organic, I interviewed Planet Organic last week sorry Planet Hollywood and Pizza Express Sarah then went on to found Bombay Bicycle Club a wildly successful chain of Indian restaurants across the UK in 2015 Sarah appeared on Dragon's Den before taking a break and travelling around the world with her family and Sarah is now an investor in a load of amazing brands as Tonkotsu Craft Gym Club and is the founder of Nightcap who own, well, tons of cocktail bars dotted all around London.

1:15I was actually in a venture bar, I think the one in Clapham over the weekend getting nice and pitted. So it's very good fun. So I appreciate that. Yeah, we've got loads in Clapham now. So yeah, so thank you for coming on again. I'm super grateful. It's great to see you. Thanks very much for having me. where I want to start actually is in potentially quite a random place but is with with Raymond Blanc yes and uh I know you'd you'd done a program with him I think I'm not sure exactly when it was called The Restaurant I think you were a judge on The Restaurant yeah and I recently read Marco Pierre White's book which is oh yes in such good autobiography biography and he talks about how his time at like le gavroche was amazing but his time at le manoir under raymond blank was raymond blank was like a different level like raymond taught him like creativity how to almost like put art on the plate it was like a different level of learning um and where i'm going with this i one of my favorite books of all time is is is david ogilvie um if i should hear confessions of an advertising man great book and his whole first page how to manage an advertising company our advertising agency he talks about this chef and he was basically he was basically a commie chef in this restaurant in paris and uh he said i've always believed that if i could understand how monsoir petard i don't know if i've said that right the head chef in spots inspired such white hot morale i could apply the same kind of leadership to management in of my advertising agency so where i'm going with this i think there's a lot of parallels between successful chefs and successful business uh and being successful in business i'd love to know like what are some of the lessons working with raymond that that you've applied to leadership in your lesson just just by being privy to him or working with him that's a really good question um so papa blonde as i call him love papa blonde of him um probably excellence I think is the word that I think of um when I think of papa I think yeah I think it's brilliance it's genius it's the strive for perfection and the the Ruth, the ruthless drive for perfection actually, and not accepting anything less than that.

3:50Um, I would say that taught, you know, I, I, I learned a lot from him about that. I remember, um, you know, asking, uh, I also asked him a very, a question to me is very interesting because as you know, I love food. I'm a real foodie. I cook, you know, I, I, food is, I wake up, I'm the person who just finishing breakfast. I'm already thinking what's for my lunch and then finishing for my tea, you know? So I, and I'm, I'm very driven by tastes in my mouth. And, you know, even now at nightcap, it's so much of it often is about the cocktail. I can taste a cocktail and tell you exactly what's missing.

4:32And I'm, I'm very lucky. I'm born with a pretty decent palate actually. Like, uh, it's, it's untrained, you know, it's not a great palate because it's not being trained properly. Uh, but I have a, I'm having a good natural palate and I had this very interesting conversation with Raymond where I said to him, can you teach a palate? Can you teach that? Um, or are people born with it? And very long answer as it often is. But you can only teach a palette to a certain point. And again, I think that's also something that was very interesting and a really good learning for me. Because actually, to be the best, you do need to have some, you need to be going with nature.

5:21Don't fight nature. You need to be going with nature, something that you are naturally also very good at and then get trained in to enhance it's like you know in australia and school children they they are assessed metamorphically assessed physically assessed early to say you will make if you want to pursue swimming you have the perfect physical makeup for a world-class swimmer you have the perfect physical makeup for a gymnast you know and definitely one of the things that i learned from Raymond was actually this drive for perfection and being brilliant in your field, but also that there is, in order to be the best, you go with nature, something that you're born with, and then you train in it and you refine it and you get better and better and better and better at the same thing you know you you continue to train in your field but it's it's something that you know like if you want to be a world-class swimmer it's it's a lot harder to do if you're you know four foot nine and really slim really really skinny and you know what I mean it's like and weigh 45 kilos it's not likely but um likewise if you're you know six foot four and big you're not likely to be a nimble gymnast it's you go with your natural ability that I would say those two things were really um he's he's very very strong on that's why I love I love speaking to you Sarah because I always find stuff that I've just never heard before but it's it's so interesting is what you said there about go with nature because I think some of the times the narrative with entrepreneurship is just work 100 hour weeks and you'll eventually get there if you don't give up but if as the swimming analogy if you've got someone who's fourth like my height like five foot five a bit of a chubby bastard right if i even if i work 100 hours if and michael phelps works 100 hours and he's six foot five he's going to win that battle so right there's there's something about there's something about you've got to work hard but you've got to lean into that nature and i suppose that's kind of what i'm trying to do with this i've realized I found something I love and I'm just going to repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

7:42Yeah. But how did you, how did you go with, with your nature? And is the first question. And then the second one is like, if we could line up outside or on Brighton Breach, we could, we could line up a hundred entrepreneurs who are going to work a hundred hour weeks or every single one, but they may not get the same success level as you. like what would you say was different about Sarah is the second part of that question but the first part is like how did you go with your nature do you see what I mean yes I think I would say that I have more conversations with people wanting to be an entrepreneur that I say it's not for you than I do who I say to them look it's brilliant just what's your worst case what's the worst thing that can happen go for it um to be an entrepreneur you've got to be self-propelled that's really important self-motivated self-driven self-propelled you have a little jet pack on your back you fill it with your tools and off you go and you fall into a hole nobody's pulling you out your little jet propeller has to go off on the back and you have to fly out yourself very very important you don't you have the have to have the ability to not to you have to have the ability to reflect the past and learn from the past but not live in the past really important you have to be eternally optimistic and driven for the future you have you have to enjoy change and progress and want that not to be scared of it and you have to have a very healthy relationship with risk and by healthy I mean you know if you speak to any of the big entrepreneurs they'll say I'm not no I'm not a risk taker actually because they're not none of us are risk takers really and I wouldn't class myself up there as you know some of the really big entrepreneurs but we're not risk takers what we do is we calculate risk and we look at it and we go can we handle our downside yes we can crack on so you have to have that healthy relationship with risk where you can assess it and you can say you know what crack on here we can handle our downside you're not you don't risk your house you don't risk your family you don't risk your health you know you don't risk the things that you can't risk you assess it and go no that's that's too big a downside I'm not going to do it and you walk away and I also think naturally as well you have to have the ability to walk away from something whilst it's important to have tenacity you have to know when enough's enough um so i think all of those things whilst also having i guess a bit of hustle so that you can kind of find the business model within whatever it is that you're doing and you know understand that when you do a startup you're cleaning the toilets one day and doing a presentation the next and you know they there's no ego involved in in in doing one or the other, you just have to crack on and do it.

10:47Those, I think are the things that along with lots of others, but for me that I am lucky I, I had, and I have, um, and therefore I think that works well, you know, being an entrepreneur suits me. I also, I'm probably really unemployable now. I mean, I hope I'm really unemployable now. I think I'd be a nightmare to employ um but you know to always question i've always questioned the norm you know if somebody says don't walk on the grass i'm like but why give me a good answer and of course i won't walk on the grass but don't what why would it's a beautiful day surely this is the day to lie on this piece of grass um you know so it's all it's questioning what what i would consider to be sometimes often really stupid rules and stupid decisions you know they might be made by a big establishment um you know a perfect example I was in hospital before I had my first baby and I was actually in hospital for 11 weeks before I had her on a on a ward in um London um on a in an NHS hospital and uh I was in there for a long time so I wanted basic things like actually I would wanted a hairdryer.

12:05I wanted a fan. It was really hot that summer. And I wanted to be able to bring my laptop in. And they were like, no, you can't have electronics. I'm like, what? The whole ward is full of electronics. What are you talking about? It's full of electronics. No, you can't have electronics, but why not? Well, because it has to get signed off by our, in the end, why, why, why, why, why, why has to get signed off by our electrician. Okay. Who's the electrician? How do I get something signed off by the electrician? What do I need to do to make my laptop comply with the electrician? And then ultimately, of course, you managed to speak to, I managed to speak to the electrician.

12:48Anybody that was in there for more than two weeks was able to bring laptop fan hairdryer in. We all just got a little sticker to say he tested it and it was absolutely fine. But the rule in the first place, I was like, that doesn't make any sense. I'm in a room full of electrical goods. Why can't I have my own thing? Why can't I have something of my own in here? How do I need to get around it? That's in a business sense, that's, you know, you come across an obstacle. Well, how do I get around it? How do I find my path? How do I find my way? So those are things that I guess, you know, often I'll sit and talk to somebody and I'll think, whoa, you're way too risk averse.

13:28You know, you're too, I guess, narrow almost in the thinking of this is the path, this is the way, these are the rules must follow. And when I see or speak to somebody that I think doesn't have a lot of those characteristics, I'm always very honest that actually being an entrepreneur won't be easy for you because you know you're gonna fall into a hole and you gotta get yourself out of it it's a lonely place hi there guys super super quick one um i write a weekly newsletter called hungry friday feast it goes live at 8am every friday i'm pouring my soul into this bad boy it's probably my favorite creative endeavor i've ever done i basically pick apart all the biggest lessons all the biggest learnings from all the wonderful guests and throw it into a feast or a newsletter we've got over a thousand two hundred subscribers come and join the party i'm going to put a link in the show notes it's right at the top and subscribe and if you are already a subscriber please just forward it on to a friend do the amount of favor it would mean the world to me anyway back to the old episode boys and girls so in terms of following your the sarah's nature what i'm kind of picking up is you've almost got this as you say this jetpack propeller but this question this your nature is almost the word why like in everything why are we doing it like this why are with your like whatever bars you're opening like almost challenging convention um but then you need that propeller to push it through i think because there's as you said a lot of people may whether in the hospital ward be like oh okay i just won't have my laptop for the week and i think what you said there the word the word propeller and why are so interesting for for a founder yes sorry go ahead um i was you also said there's the the obstacle if there's an obstacle you'll find a path around it and this is a question you kind of teed me up perfectly for my next question um but there's a book i love called the obstacle is the way yeah and i think i asked this question to all guests but i genuinely believe in life we all have this one that at the time was like this obstacle is just insurmountable like i cannot get past this thing but then retrospectively you look back you like that was the way forward so i'd love to i'd love to know like and this could be any any part of your life doesn't necessarily have to be business but like what's been one seemingly insurmountable obstacle that retro retrospectively was like that was the path forward um I think probably like most people um the obstacle is often what's going on in your your head you know it's it's often you you are the biggest obstacle actually to to success or to to the next stage in your life and I think you know just like everybody else yeah I've have I've had those moments where I've doubted myself or questioned my ability or, you know, imposter syndrome or, you know, what can I really do this?

16:40Have I been off more than I can chew? Is this the time everybody finds me out? You know, those stories that you tell yourself. So I think I've become very good over the years. um and it's obviously less of a problem now I'm like 50 in two months time and you know I've done lots and lots of stuff now so but certainly earlier in my life um I would say that's probably the thing that I have consistently had to get over was myself or get around was myself um and my own mindset and my own possible question of like lacking my confidence or lacking in confidence or questioning my ability whatever it might be that's what I've always had to talk myself through and I actually it definitely helps to do that regularly so you always see the outcome if that makes sense You know, you see that, okay, I've talked to myself around this one.

17:46Like, again, what's the worst thing that can happen? Just get on with it. Just move forward. So, yeah, I would say definitely my biggest obstacle has been myself. Yeah, I've never had that answer before. So, and I think people are listening to this to get out of their own way in some respects. I think you're so right whether that's going to a buyer's meeting at the Tesco head office you can talk yourself into all these the phrase I think I love is like you suffer more in imagination than reality and it's like you can create these obstacles in your own head but I'd love to zoom in and is there a specific example like earlier on in your career because obviously now you've got you've got so much confidence but like it was an example when you had the imposter syndrome was like you know racing in your head and like how did you what were some of the tools you came up with to chip away at that obstacle?

18:44So it's a story I've told before.

18:50Actually, it was in a BBC interview. So it's, I think people might have heard, may have heard this before. I don't know, but so excuse me if you've already heard it, but it was like a really, it was a really big moment, actually, in imposter syndrome. um i was in my late 20s mid to late 20s and i was working at pizza express at the time and i was i got a job and i was working for um the board and we were buying ketnas in soho and i was running the project and i was i went to a meeting with our lawyers and their lawyers to sort of finalize the deal really to go through page turning on the um sale and purchase agreement and i was a little bit late for the meeting two or three minutes late and i walked in and as i walked in the lawyer on the other side hardly looked up and said oh thank god for that mine's white with one sugar and um it was a real moment and to just to put it into context you know this is a long time ago um not saying that things have necessarily changed much since then but that was absolutely the story of my 20s you know without a doubt of of always being more senior within the roles that I'd had than you might think for one a woman and two my age um so I put my bag down and went over and it was a filter coffee thing and poured a poured a coffee um walked over to him and put it in front of him and said would anybody else like one and nobody else did obviously everybody else in the room realized what he'd done and nobody i don't think anybody's actually breathing at that moment and i went back made myself a coffee and then sat in front of him uh with my coffee his coffee um since then i've all put a put a little bit more lip gloss on as i always do now at the beginning of a meeting i've always got my lip gloss with me and said shall we start the meeting and he looked up and i watched the color drain from his face and it was such an important moment to me when I realized I then actually that that imposter syndrome that I feel and sometimes justifiable not justifiably but sometimes the that I was genuinely being underestimated you know by the people around me and had that was absolutely the story of my 20s and afterwards to an extent a little bit was a superpower because that meeting went in every respect exactly how I mean better than I could have ever hoped it could because he underestimated me when I walked in through the door and it was a really beautiful moment for me and I was when I reflected on that afterwards I realized that actually something that had been you know sort of something that had given me affected my confidence actually over the years was in fact a superpower that I was being underestimated so allow it to be a superpower and to work with it.

22:25And that really was a big moment for me in my work life, maybe even in my personal life as well, actually. But it was a moment where I realized, you know what, you can underestimate me, that's okay, because guess who's going to walk out with a deal? That's what happened. And it was a very, very powerful, actual perfect example of when imposter syndrome or being underestimated worked. And it's never left me. It's never left me. And so I think since then, I'm definitely driven by this desire to never let fear be the reason I don't do something. Obviously, if it's actually dangerous, then, you know, don't do something stupid.

23:30But when I calculate my downside and I can handle my downside, then I'm like, why would I not do it? Don't allow fear to get in my way. don't allow you know to always give something a go i'd rather fail trying than allow my legacy to be the person that came up with a great idea that did nothing always rather fail trying hey guys absolutely pausing um that mckenzie jones are extending their partnership with hungry so gassed um in case you have been living under a rock who are mckenzie jones they are fmcg recruitment specialists they work with some amazing brands lucky saint real super foods hunter and gather and purdy and fig also with some of the big poppers the big boys the big g's pepsico unilever campari i've known billy for yonks paul for the last year he's a top bro they're just super kind and lovely and they're just dedicated to our wonderful space our wonderful industry of buccaneering challenge brands and that there's so much more than recruitment business check out the podcast because you'll know them it's epic um i've even even introduced mckenzie jones from some amazing brands and they've really helped them scale if you're looking to hire just reach out to them have a chin wear get in touch do yourself a favor thank you guys are you ready there is gonna be some absolutely totally brilliantly bonkers next level madness coming your way today are you ready to take your brand to a whole new stratosphere for free imagine connecting your product to a digital world through a simple smartphone scan you know the drill scan it bish bash bosh you're away that ladies and gentlemen is the magic of the new gs1 powered qr codes these next generation barcodes act as a gateway to a world of endless possibilities they connect your product's unique identity to multiple online sources of enriched real-time content why why on planet earth should you be getting your mitts on these gs1 powered qr codes well look very very simple mate gs1 will help you drive revenue upsell and cross-sell your amazing products boost your bottom line boost your bottom line yes please where do i sign enhance customer engagement look delight your customers with dynamic content that captivates and keeps them coming back for more more more please sir can have some more yes you can comply with regulations look you want to be building your brand you don't want to be knee deep wading through a deep river of legislation agrovation these barcodes allow you to stay ahead of the curve look don't allow this beautiful boat of boundless opportunity to sail away into the malting sunset be on that boat join GS1 UK's free pilot program today yes it's completely free there will be a link in the show notes thank you so much so the guy asks you to go make this cup of coffee right and and ask for the sugar basically an arsehole like there's obviously a very transformative moment and and it seemed that you've still got loads of confidence to go and do that though but what are the voices in your head or like what do you feel like in the air as you're going over to make that cup of coffee like what's going through your head at the time because for then for you then to go and sit down and say right we're going to start this meeting like what was going on in the Sarah before that pivotal transformation of the moment I remember I actually remember saying to myself, breathe.

26:52Like, I remember it. Because I think me in my 20s, obviously less reflective, more quick-tempered. You know, that's just a younger version of me, right? I mean, I wanted to just shout at him and tell him what a dick he was, frankly. You know, but I remember thinking, no, this is a moment. This is a moment. You know, and I think we get, we all have a few of those in our life, but this was definitely a transformative moment for me where I took, I played it well. Whereas, you know, probably even two years before I wouldn't have played it well, I probably would have just been rude to somebody. and that then they don't, I don't hold the upper hand if I'd have then been rude to him.

27:50Yes, of course he was rude and he deserved it, but I don't hold the upper hand. The meeting wouldn't have gone well. Actually, the fact that I played it the way that I did and I actually made him the coffee, no problem, made myself a coffee, asked anybody else in the room if they wanted a coffee, meant that he sat there and I just watched, honestly, I watched the colour drain from his face so embarrassed and obviously never apologized because that's the type of person he was and everyone everyone else in the room knew your role right it's completely i mean maybe the other people on the other side didn't but obviously they did once i sat down and went right we start turning the page you know but my god um what an idiot but like thank you thank you so much for that because um it was just this sort of perfect almost like theatrical moment so it was almost staged it was so perfect of where I realized this moment where I realized that actually this the fact that everybody had been underestimating me and underestimating me for so many years it's like let them so what it's a superpower let them all underestimate me this is great in fact i have a benefit that they're all underestimating me so don't let that be a thing that messes with your head sarah actually walk in and think apply a bit more lip gloss and hope they do underestimate you because you're the one who walks out with a deal when they underestimate you i've got a friend who i know you said this like back in back in the day this is still happening like right now i've got a very good friend who works for works for a fast pace brand i won't say the names she sits at a board meeting with loads of quote-unquote like um you know like old white guys to be put it bluntly as that and who haven't actually had food experience so she and she has right but she still she feels and she's a little bit older has that feeling of like wait wait where she's not being like you she's she's letting it actually crush her and i know because you know i see her all the time what advice could you give to someone who doesn't have that doesn't have that transformative moment over the hot cup of coffee like someone who is it is kind of having avalanches of imposter syndrome like what advice could you give to someone to like kind of not snap out of it because that's the that's the wrong way of saying it but do you know what i mean i think first of all you have to ask what the true impact is so if the true impact is that it's it's actually a practical one it's a you know you can you can see the path as in you're putting very very good proposals forward and it's getting knocked back so i.e you you are being i don't i'm not talking about your head i'm not talking about mindset i'm talking about actually you are being held back because you are a woman that i think you have to take action and you have to do something you have to speak to people you have to do something you have to change it you have to make sure that that behavior um you you you you or you you have to leave you know one or the other you can't that's not a world in which you can exist you either have to change them or you have to go if you can't change them and and i'm a big believer in don't fight battles you can't win yeah um she has actually left funny enough but like actually yeah yeah yeah but yeah that's reality but if you know don't waste your life on yeah it's an annoyance and i'm sure there'd be a lot of people jumping up and down listening to that going what no you've got to fight you've got to fight but same time we've got one life and um you know battles can you change them if the answer is yes absolutely fight fight but i think the other thing is is is you've got to ask yourself is is that the reality so is it actually affecting your the business you know your your ability to the the job that you're doing and not because of your mindset but because physically they're just stopping stuff happening or is it or is it a mindset and I think it's much easier to deal with a mindset you know if it is crushing you because you are lacking it's making you lack confidence in yourself then I I actually think the path of talking to somebody getting a good coach finding a good friend or a mentor or somebody that you respect or look up to or somebody that want a friend that just calls bullshit basically you know a good friend or a professional coach I think that's when it's very very very good to work with somebody or to at least have somebody there that's like a sounding board that you can talk to you can offload and that can help you see the path because often you you know the answer you know you know what you need to do in terms of mindset it's all there it's just sometimes there's no perspective because you're in it sometimes you need somebody just to grab you like by the collar and pull you right back so that you can have an overview of the whole thing and only when you have real perspective of the whole situation I think are you able to make proper decisions so you need to be able to take that step back and if you can't do it yourself then you need to find somebody who helps you do that and and then when you do have perspective of the whole thing I think it's often really clear maybe it's just one person maybe it's all in your head maybe it's a whole group of people that you need to split up like what do you actually have in in your hands where where does your power lie work out where you're where you can win and go in there and make that change there's always a way somehow and genuinely if you don't find it like I think she's probably done the right thing if she can't find it but I would say you have to work out where your power is within the within the situation it's hard without an actual situation if you see what I mean but yeah yeah for sure yeah the so have you ever had a business coach and like what did he or she impart on on you like any wisdom that could we could kind of viscerally part to our listeners yeah so I've not actually um and I think one of the reasons why I've not is, again, this sort of nature thing.

34:24I am brutal with myself in actually for the most part in a good way, in the sense that I'm constantly challenging my question, constantly questioning and challenging my decisions. So always going back, why have I done this? What's driven it? What matters to me? so that I keep a level of perspective. But what I have had over the years are amazing people around me. So I'm very, very lucky to be married to an exceptional human being who is not only smarter than me and brilliant at business and different aspects of business than I am. So together, we're a great team, but also very reflective, very philosophical, much more than I am.

35:18So questions, wants to discuss, definitely. I have grown a lot as a human by being married to him because he has helped me to challenge myself and to be more reflective. So that's really great. And in a business sense, I have always had good, when I've met good people, I've kept hold of them. You know, they're still very good friends. the chair of nightcap today was in that meeting that I just talked about on the right side of the table, obviously, was in that meeting. And he was a managing partner of one of the really big law firms. And although he's never been a mentor in official capacity, he's a rock.

36:07He's absolutely a rock in my life and has been so often the voice of reason and sanity when sometimes I've not been able to see the wood for the trees. So he has been somebody that I can phone and learn from and know that he loves me or won't judge me, I should say. He's there to want me to be my best self so there's no judgment um he just wants to help me be my best self so although it's not official he is um you know he's been a very solid presence i guess in in my life very rational are there any examples examples of that just to to add some like sort of meat to the proverbial bone like i think i'd um he is so one of the best pieces of advice he ever gave me was to surround yourself with brilliant people and that was in my 20s i remember thinking well i mean that's not exactly rocket science obviously yeah yeah yeah people like so thanks for that if you don't got any more nuggets um and of course now i realize that that is the smartest piece of advice you can ever give anybody is to surround yourself with brilliant people and that's in every aspect of your life that's in your personal life, your home life, your work life, every aspect of your life, surround yourself with brilliant people.

37:36Remove the toxicity, whether it's within your team, whether it's in your life, your friend group, whatever that might be, remove the toxicity and surround yourself with people that want you to shine and want to be their best selves. because in doing so, the entire room elevates. Everything is better. You know, it's the same my best friends I've known since I was five years old. And we adore each other unconditionally, but we always call each other out. You know, if we're being moronic, we'll absolutely call each other out. Boemi, our beloved sponsor, are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger boemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollies ollies been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using boemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff is coming to podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage a team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using boemy look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland Hi guys, super super quick one, so so excited Look, for years I've been badgering on About Hungary the podcast You're probably bored to death, thanks for putting up with me But Hungary is also an agency And we look after one Amazing brand called Ireland's Chocolate We've had a great time over the year, we've won listings A load of wholesalers, we've won Milk and More We've got our first grocery listing coming very soon Which is very very sick But what I'm thrilled to announce Is Hungary is merging with HC Consulting My boy Harry Clark and his wonderful team.

39:43He's an absolute G. They do brand strategy, new business, business and account management. But why I really love working with Harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is Harry was actually the founder of the boozy, isolated brand Pops. So he's been in the trenches. He's grafted his face off. He's had the sleepless nights. He's had the turmoil. He's had the triumph. He knows what it is to be a founder. He is a founder. And he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home. Holy moly dips, the gut stuff, Savile drinks, remio gelato so if you're a brand and you're you're stuck you're looking for like new business help you're looking to scale drop us a message we'd love to chat thank you so much back to the old episode what i want to talk about is is negotiation and uh this is kind of personally for me so i used to work for a business and it was it's much easier negotiating when you're actually negotiating for someone's sat like on for for a business because ultimately it doesn't really affect you may get a bonus which is great but yeah you still get the salary coming in whereas now i'm on my own i'm having to negotiate my own deals i'm what i'm struggling with is how to separate myself from the actual business whereas when you're actually working somewhere else it's really easy it's like you know it's much easier to negotiate what i'd love to know and this will help loads of listeners um and you're you're obviously clearly with with the example you gave with the coffee with the coffee and the sugar and that dickhead um is is to go into some negotiation principles but i think to open it up like what what's been like the most intense negotiation you've you've had to go through in your career yeah so without a doubt like oh my god and i've been through some pretty hectic negotiations without a doubt it was my negotiate my negotiating with the Clapham House group when I bought the Bombay Bicycle Club.

41:38So I used to work for David and Paul, who had the Clapham House group when I was at Pizza Express. So Clapham House group, I'm just... Clapham House group were the people that I bought the Bombay Bicycle Club with. So they were like the fans. It was negotiating how we split the equity and the deal and the entire financial structure of it. And they used to be my bosses. So that made it very, very difficult. And I actually had to walk away from the deal. And I meant it, meant it when I walked away. They took me to a point where I was like, this is never going to work. I am going to go and buy a different group of Indian restaurants and I'm still going to have the largest chain of Indian restaurants in the UK I'm just not going to do it with you and I remember where I was stood when I said that I can still feel my heart my heart actually my heart rate goes up my heart I think my my pulse must have been about 160 at this point you know it was I couldn't believe it's like Sarah the small what the hell was I saying you know I was really young at the time I was still in my 20s um but I remember meaning it absolutely meaning it and that's but what I learned and I'd seen them negotiate a lot as well because I had worked with them for years and I knew exactly how they negotiated I knew all their tactics so but that was without a doubt I'd spent nearly a year trying to buy that business um and I was I walked away from it I got it back obviously but because that's what history tells you you just need to google it so I got it back but um I walked away and that was definitely the hardest negotiation I've ever I've ever done but god it taught me a lot what so why why did you walk away and then what did it teach you but what was the so I walked away because we were nowhere near what I needed the deal to be in order for it to work for me we were it was never going to work right um and in the end after a night of reflection really I just said to myself well hang on I'm so focused on this business because I spent a year trying to buy it and I know this business inside and out and I know what I'll go and do with it why don't I just go and buy another one um and make that the largest chain of India restaurants I know the team I know where else I can get the money from I don't need them I'm gonna walk away and there was real strength in that inside me even though it was I felt sick saying it um but it worked and it wasn't a negotiating tactic.

44:44It was genuine. I was walking away. I was done. But it worked and we did end up getting a really good deal and everything. I did end up getting exactly what I wanted and it all worked out great. And history tells you that it was a good business and blah, blah, blah. So it was all worked out really well in the end. But at that time, that was the hardest thing I've done. In that moment, part of that negotiating was to walk away from it that was really difficult well I love to second you did ask me a second question what did I say sorry the second question yeah is like what did how did this area change pre that phone after that phone call basically like how did you change so I think it was a real moment actually of separating to your point of separating myself from a negotiation I found it so personal I felt like it was it was like a personal attack that they were undervaluing me you know I was in my late 20s I didn't know any better and I'd seen how they dealt with lots of other people and I was like god you know that how can they treat me the same um and I felt I felt it I took it personally but that moment of me walking away um and then of course we came back and it all worked out great um I have never taken it I've it's it's never been personal since I since that moment I I have absolutely had the ability to just be strong and separate myself from the negotiation the negotiation the other thing that I learned from that negotiation as well.

46:37And I've carried that with me ever since is always to manage expectations. And I see it, oh my God, I must see it in 90 plus percent of the negotiations that I go into where expectations are not managed. So if you, let's say for example, you're trying to sell a business and you have a magic number, right? It doesn't matter how realistic or unrealistic that magic number is like basically you won't sell for less you've got to manage expectations and people don't because people think oh well what if i might get more or you know i don't want to leave money on the table well firstly when you're trying to sell a business you've got to leave money on the table that's essential otherwise nobody's going to buy it so get that out of your head in the first place and secondly um it is really

47:33i think if you i think just trying to think what i was trying to remember what exactly what i was just about to say i completely lost my thought that's what was i just what was i just in the middle of saying that i can't remember what you're talking is it's about managing expectations and you see it like yeah magical number most brands manage the expectations of people around you it's really really important so people don't do it because they think that they they're going to leave money on the table that's what I was going to say so don't be greedy in a negotiation just be honest with yourself I will do it for this that's it this is what I will do it for it's not negotiation I'm just being really straight that's what I will do it for now one of the things that I learned from them and I've seen it with a lot of other people as well is they come in really really low and they do that to try and knock your confidence in a negotiation so people so let's say I'll just use numbers to make it let's say this is worth 10 ,000 pounds and I think it's worth 10 ,000 pounds and they probably think it's worth eight let's say and i think it's worth 10 they'll come in at one and a half and be brutal because then you're like oh my god maybe it's not worth 10 so you then already are probably down at seven yeah because they're knocking your confidence and suddenly you're settling at five where frankly they would have been prepared to pay eight in the first place but it's a tactic and a lot of people use that tactic so when you go into a negotiation of any kind and this really helped me with the Bombay Bicycle Club negotiation I you have to know what great looks like don't go ever go into a negotiation without knowing what great looks like for you you you say this is what great looks like to me in your head you know what what are you trying to achieve here what does great look like and what does walk away look like and then chances are you'll meet somewhere in the middle but you stick to it and you have to separate yourself from from the negotiation oh my god i am so so so excited it feels like hungary is finally swimming in the big leagues i can't believe this it's absolutely mental but delighted to announce that big fish yes big fish are part of the podcast perry's been on the podcast three times listeners absolutely love it some of my most downloaded and cherished episodes of all time but big fish are behind literally so many brands in your cupboard in your weekly shop charlie biggum year valley tyrells clipper tea goo rana i mean make the list is longer than the river nile but they also share risk and invest in brands that they really believe are a force for good that brands that they believe are going to be the next big thing like howder the snack that gives back but even more exciting news big fish want to speak to the next wave of small challenger food and drink radders that are destined for big things the raconteurs the movers shakers buccaneering visionaries so look if you want to speak to big fish and just have a chat get your brand in front of them then drop me a message my mate louis from local beer amazing beer was in their office aka la fishbowl uh last week chatting to perry freddie and the big fish crew so drop me a message if you would like to speak to i've got yeah i've got three this next week for some like with some of the big retailers i can't obviously say who but it's it's interesting because when you're a small brand up against a bigger retailer you you're always going to have it's all the the fight is always going to be david fight versus goliath and what why i love your story sarah is almost two instances with the clapham house negotiation and the coffee is you've had your david versus goliath moment but you've come out swinging do you know what i mean which is amazing yeah you have to stun i mean they still they're still uh goliath right you know yeah it doesn't change anything but how goliath makes you feel you can control yeah so having so having like what you actually want in the negotiation i think also be prepared for them to anchor you like what well in your in in the back of your court basically is there any other tactics you've learned like you've you've been around some obviously gone done way more negotiations and pretty much everyone listening to this like what else have you learned that could be really super valuable do you think so you have to assess your worth um and that can be a very difficult thing to do you have to understand what are you worth to them you know what what you have to put yourself in the shoes of the person sat opposite you to understand where the negotiation could go.

52:21And I think if you don't understand the other side of the table, you have less chance of making something work. My husband and I actually have very, very different, quite, not very different, but quite different negotiating the way in which we negotiate. He is, he's softer and is, it takes him longer to say what it is that he's looking for. So he builds a relationship, builds a relationship, builds a relationship, builds a relationship. Whereas I manage expectations very quickly up front. Both can work, you know, but you have to assess who you're with. And often we'll go into a negotiating situation and we'll have the first meeting and we will go, no, this one's for me.

53:06Or we'll go, no, this one's definitely for you. You need to lead on this. So interesting, yeah. And that depends on the person. So some of the businesses that we've bought within Nightcap, for example, without, I mean, Michael, that's his job within Nightcap anyway, so he would always lead on them. But there have been some instances where it's been very obvious that actually the way I would manage a negotiation might work better in a situation. So I might take over or step in or come in for a couple of meetings and leave. and there's been others where he it's so him that i'm not allowed near the deal because actually he's built such a strong relationship with these people that he needs to take he needs to take it over the line and that that again but it still comes down to us understanding fundamentally what is driving the person on the other side of the table so when it's for example quite a big ego and maybe they don't really want to sell or it's difficult, definitely Michael.

54:13You know, he'll always empathize and be amazing with that character. When it's more contractual, I'll probably get the job done a lot quicker and cleaner. And, you know, everybody appreciates the fact that I'm really straight talking, always manage expectations. We all know where we are. whereas if it's somebody that's quite transactional they might prefer that way of working to Michael's way of working if you see what I mean so usually between the two of us I mean Michael could do both it's what he does and he's brilliant at it but and I can do both if I want to but this is kind of a natural a natural way of negotiating so you've got to understand you know what does great look like to you but then also as part of that it's really important to understand what what are you worth to them what we said what we said at the beginning when we were talking about Raymond Blanc about going with your nature and it's like it's the same the negotiation of going with with your natural style and I think I think a lot of the books I've read because at the minute I am very much a small file I'm having to negotiate with with bigger people but I'm having to separate myself from that but i think a lot of these books like almost tell you to be this bloody american cop do you know i mean or like this fbi investigator it's like if that's not your if that's not your natural just go with your go with your natural kind of yeah go with go with your nature that's super valuable um what i want to talk about now is you you've done it i look like done loads of traveling and i've kind of looked on your instagram and you kind of have this wanderlust for traveling um and what i'd love to know is what is one country you've been to on your wanderlust adventures yeah that has it that has opened a new perspective that's that's changed the way you live in in brighton yes and dungeon um a couple but i think the place in the world that's probably two places actually that have had the biggest impact on me firstly byron bay in australia um is my spiritual home really um mine and the family's we've been there all for years we used to go for try and go for a month a year we used to do home swapping years and years and years ago we used to swap our home for a month and go and stay there and now it's just like it's like a second home now the kids when we weren't traveling the kids went to school there for 12 weeks and we've got a lot of friends there we love it it's it's and and time stand still in Byron.

57:11It's slow and everybody has time to stop and to talk and to talk and just to just be in the moment in Byron.

57:38And it's sort of the famous kind of hippie surfery place, much more commercial now than it used to be, even since we've been going. But it's still the magic of Byron is still there. It's not, it's not, it isn't quite what it used to be, but it is, it is, it is still there. Culturally, it's still the same. and it that definitely you know we we as a family feel that when the adrenaline and the sort of ruthless pace of northern Europe takes over um we try and book a month to Byron that's what we try and do so like at least every other year if we can we'll go for Christmas or Easter to try and just get that fix, that fix.

58:32How did you, how did you end up going there in the first place? Like what was the, how did you end up in that part of Australia? So when Michael and I got married, we'd got, we had four kids in four years. So in between number two and number three, we got married. yeah yeah in number two and number three we got married four and a half years actually um and for our honeymoon we just sold i think we just sold neutral health one of the businesses that we'd done on aim um and we took a three nearly four months holiday break we were able to do a lot of stuff online, even then, actually. And we took this break and we booked a ticket to Sydney and hired a car and just pootled up the East Coast.

59:28And we just stopped in various places and met people and they told us where to go next. Then we met somewhere else and told them, kept going, kept going, kept going. And then ultimately we pulled up in this place, Byron Bay, and within an hour we were like oh my god this is it we found our we found it we found our place and we rented a house for six weeks didn't move absolutely loved it and then that was it we then gone back year after year after year after year like it's you know it's a big big big part of our life so it's that which i think spiritually we learned what's not from byron what's the most like yeah to to kind of bring this alive like what's the most kind of delicious memory you've you've got of of byron bay or or experience because i want to kind of understand what it means to slow down because i think you're so right northern europe especially london it's just like yeah it's mental yeah yeah it's really unhealthy um so it's rather than a memory it is um so usually it takes about two and a bit weeks for the adrenaline to leave my system everybody's system all of our system to be honest and then we never have a plan no day there's no plan for any day there's no you just get up we go to the gym then we do whatever whatever it might be just wander around whatever just meander basically there's this place in Byron at the the called main beach which is funnily enough the main beach and it's often people congregate there and there's usually some live music and it's just very chilled and the view is is incredible of the beach and the lighthouse and um really amazing and that's a place where often you stop and there's nothing in your head nothing it's magic and there's a there's a lighthouse walk which is also it's about 10k beautiful lighthouse walk um all around the coast.

1:01:45And again, you can do that whole walk and think of nothing. And that's, that's my memory of Byron Bay is that I have the ability to completely empty my head. I think as well for me, one of the reasons I love it so much is the time difference. So it's a very small window when I feel compelled to communicate with life and everything, you know, so I can do my emails and stuff in my own time. and nobody responds because everybody's asleep and then when they do respond i'm asleep so um there's only a small window every day when you can have any any form of meeting or phone call or whatever it is that you want but so for me it's often those holidays are so important because i think it is impossible to retain any form of perspective unless you have moments where adrenaline leaves your system and I think this for anybody running a small business medium business or a large business one of the biggest challenges that you have and one of the hardest things to be able to do is to take that step back and have perspective because if you spend all your time in the business and in the detail you will not be able to you can't stand back and see the whole business in front of you all you can do is see that stuff that you're working really hard at in that moment um and i think for me those holidays are imperative they're really really really important hi there guys thank you so much for listening as always means the absolute world to me before we jump into this episode i need a really big big big big favor i have pitched to some massive guests humongous guests and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough please please please just hit the subscribe button on apple or spotify or follow ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations equals hopefully better insights for you which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well so please hit that subscribe button and yeah enjoy this episode you told me something last time that actually i made a note of i refer back to it a lot is in you the exact words you said on our last podcast is when you have adrenaline you think you have clarity but actually you have to get off the hedonistic or the work treadmill and get off the adrenaline is an ostensible or slash illusionary form of clarity and actually it's stepping back and I do actually try and apply that as much as I can don't always don't always adhere to it but I try to but what's and what was the other country that is kind of yes Yes.

1:04:29Other place is a place called Villa in the Swiss mountains. And there I found nature in a way that I've never done in my life before. And now it's really, I breathe deeper there than I do anywhere else in the world. It's quite extraordinary, actually. um and we lived there for two years um and I found trail running and hiking and just a a pure joy in nature that now actually which is incredible if I when I go back to the mountains it doesn't even have to be Valar but Valar in particular is very special because I know it and I know the trails and I know, I know how that, how it operates, but go back to that environment.

1:05:28The adrenaline leaves my system really quickly. I empty my head very, very, very quickly. And I breathe deeply, very, very quickly. So even a weekend there can help me reset in a way that a two week holiday would normally. so that's a he said not only was it an enormous part of my life and very important but it now still plays a very important part in my life that i it's where i can go to to it's where i can go to to find nature to be at peace with nature and the stillness the silence there's no wind it is it is It's incredible how much peace I find on those trails. Love it. It's an amazing, I love the mountains, love them.

1:06:21And I'm not just talking about, you know, yes, I've learned to ski not quite recently. So I'm not a brilliant skier, but I love it. And I love the mountains in the winter. But really, you know, in the spring and the summer, they're magic, really magic. and then in terms of the other part of that question is is how you you try and bring that to living in the uk is that the two places you said with with byron it was slowing down with uh well to be honest but with the place in switzerland yeah that's it um it's both slowing down so how are you like on a day-to-day when you are in London or Brighton where it is busy like how are you slowing down despite being surrounded by chaos yes so it is conscious of that exactly as you just talked about conscious of that adrenaline fill that happens so easily and as junkies you know we feel clear and we feel alive and we feel brilliant we feel on really good form but the reality is it's adrenaline a lot of the time so what I do try and do is get into nature so I try I take I've got a dog now and try and take the dog for a walk or be on my own um and go for a I've got the South Downs quite close by even if I'm in London even just walking up Primrose Hill and and through the parks but again I try and get on the trail there's a trail around the outside of primary sild and regions park which is actually it's it's on the grass it's not concrete and to me it's the concrete that i can't if for some reason if i'm walking on concrete i can't empty my head it's all it's still under the feet yeah i like i have to be actually have to actually have my feet on nature so i have to have my trail shoes on and I have to be walking through grass even if it's pruned grass in Primrose Hill it's which is where the our flat is it's better than um better than walking up the normal concrete or walking up the normal concrete paths and I don't listen to anything in my ears I try to just let it all wash over me so that it's kind of all happening in my head if I have something in my ears it's it's still input when I'm trying to empty my head it doesn't work to have input for me so I've definitely I definitely get there quicker than I ever have done before because of my time spent in both Byron and in Bilar but I am and I'm conscious of it but you know in all honesty living in Switzerland for me was I was living my best life like there was no doubt at all that was um my mind was so wonderful um during that time then really really clear it was beautiful actually no adrenaline hardly any adrenaline in my system is wonderful um but now now I just have to be conscious to get to get back to it wherever I wherever I can you know I have four teenagers, wonderful husband, very demanding, demanding work.

1:09:41You know, there's a lot now of input. So I have to try very hard to retreat. And I've got very good at understanding that unless I have perspective and unless I am firing on all cylinders, actually I don't, you know, I need that to be able to run the business well. I need that to be a good mom. I need that to be, you know, a good wife. I need that to be fully functioning human, basically. So I'm, I'm now very good at understanding because of my time in Villar, I'm Byron, that I have to take that time to empty my head and be still.

1:10:23it's yeah it's mad and what i want to explore is you have this this kind of this calmness to you sarah but then you work in in um well you own loads of night not like cocktail bars and i know ibiza's a big um like you like going to ibiza i think ibiza i think ibiza is one of my favorite places on the world it's like the complete opposite right but it's still good crack it's still great fun um and what i i've asked this to a lot of chefs i've interviewed and a lot of these chefs they say that they go to these different places and will pick up different inputs that they then apply to their businesses yes um so uh i think there's a restaurant up in lee's a chef called tommy banks and you walk into the restaurant and the tables are just the chairs and the tables are turned slightly like that which is really random but you walk and it feels more open.