Unveiling The Hidden Secrets to Winning European Rugby Championships and High Performance FMCG Teams

46:30Or if an opposition do something different in my sort of area of the game, then, you know, what could they do? What likely could they do? So those scenario buildings, so preparation, but then also scenario buildings. So if you, you know, if the Sainsbury's guys are like, we don't want it in 700 stores, we want it in 200. Like, okay, what's your first point from there? what's your absolute one next step from there so as soon as you can like give yourself a breathing bit so if someone does this tactic in a game i can bend over and do my shoelace or i could call this or you know you can slow things down or you can get someone to drop a knee like it's there's a number of different ways i think learning the fact learning your pattern for preparation is huge especially early doors so how can you prep best so is it your organization is it your you know you do a PowerPoint or you write it or you visually prep so learning that but then also you know I think the experience really comes when you can start to learn that but also filter in sort of different scenario buildings and I'm just when you said the Mike Tyson quote like everyone's got a plan to their punch in the face and I just you know I do a bit of work for a chocolate brand and um you know the amount of times you kind of have that game plan quite literally and then you you know with four or five and then something just completely shitshow comes in and you're just pulled there in in the actual game how often um maybe composure is what i'm trying to pull at is how often you go into with the game plan and you're obviously playing with a different side and all sorts of different excellent things from coming your way how often are you having to change the game plan, it's case by case.

48:17Yeah, a good bit, you know, and I think it might, like, sometimes it might not change a lot, but it might be just changing, tweaking a few different things will be the thing that wins you the games. I think, yeah, it does happen a lot, and ultimately, you train your team to dictate to another team, right, we're going to play this sort of way, and you're going to have to deal with us, and if you're good enough, that will work 90 % of the time but it's like it's it's when things unusual happen and a lot of that comes around pressure so if you're in a final and you know someone keeps dropping the ball because of pressure you need to either you know change up the tactics to not pass that way or do something different um and that's when I guess you you know that's why the experienced ones are the experienced ones because they they should stand up in those situations bohemi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale bohemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger bohemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic Ollie's Ollie's been on this podcast twice actually They saw a 29 % uplift in sales When using Boemi to check Major malt listings availability Insane 29 % uplift by downloading an app Insane Lucky saying My boy Aaron Duff Who's come on this podcast in a couple of weeks He uses it to manage a team of 30 people And they've Lucky saying Have unlocked 500 draft listings By using Boemi Look you've got to get involved with this stuff It's absolutely insane And it will categorically change your life It's just the sickest platform I use it all the time at Ireland.

50:09Hi guys, super, super quick one. So, so excited. Look, for years I've been badgering on about Hungary the podcast. You're probably bored to death. Thanks for putting up with me. But Hungary is also an agency. And we look after one amazing brand called Ireland's Chocolate. We've had a great time over the year. We've won listings at a load of wholesalers. We've won Milk and More. We've got our first grocery listing coming very soon, which is very, very sick. But what I'm thrilled to announce is Hungary is merging with HC Consulting. my boy Harry Clark and his wonderful team he's an absolute G they do brand strategy, new business business and account management but why I really love working with Harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is Harry was actually the founder of the boozy, isolated brand Pops he's been in the trenches he's grafted his face off, he's had the sleepless nights he's had the turmoil, he's had the triumph he knows what it is to be a founder he is a founder and he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home holy moly dips, the gut stuff, Savile drinks Thanks.

51:06Remy O 'Gilato. So if you're a brand and you're stuck, you're looking for new business help, you're looking to scale, drop us a message. We'd love to chat. Thank you so much. Back to the old episode. I love what you said, the word pressure. Everyone listening to this is under a huge amount of pressure. But ultimately, setting up a brand, there's pressure every time. Why did you do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I interviewed the guys from Perfect Head the other day. And they were like, the pressure we put ourselves under is mental but you kind of need it it's like the cringy quote is like pressure makes a diamond right?

51:42yeah what's the most pressure you've ever felt in a game? like and how did you navigate that pressure? in a game I guess in my role pressure comes on when a number of factors start to change and you've like my role would be to win a certain win line outs which is a certain area of the game or steal line outs depending on whether you're attack and defence and I think when when a number of factors go wrong and you start to go outside of that bracket of alright I'm really prepped for this I haven't built scenarios for this because this is just a mental scenario like so if you get a forward gets a red card in the first 10 minutes you know you've got to start thinking and it depends who gets that red card you've got to start thinking alright you start drawing back on different different times and experiences and looking at how you can, you know, nudge it a little bit more in your favour because you've also got to understand that you will be at a disadvantage.

52:43So it's how do you best reduce that disadvantage but also come up with a plan which means that, you know, at least you get parity or, you know, ideally a little bit more. But you've got to understand it, you know, it's going to be a tough day at the office. And is there a game specifically where that kind of rung true? yeah numbers of number of games you know we've had a few red cards at club and country which you know but then also I've had a red card or I've had a yellow card where you've got to you know you go off the field you've got to readjust your mindset to come back on and you know add to the team but a specific game like we had a yeah England Argentina game not in the World Cup which we also got a red card but prior to that we had a Champions Cup, I think it was a quarterfinal game against Ospreay where we got a red card and that was, you know, you've got to change tactics pretty quickly in the first five minutes.

53:42So we ended up winning both those games, but it was, yeah, I guess it was the tactics that, you know, probably won. How do you stay calm in that situation as a team? Yeah, you've got to use the people around you and the time and create yourself a bit of space, a bit of time. but ultimately it's it's just built over training it's built over scenarios in training and the prep work you do like you can't fake some stuff sometimes you know you can fake it for a week or two or three maybe six months but you know you'll get found out eventually so I think it's ultimately it's just hard work and sort of putting yourself through those different scenarios is and then with with with four five what's been that moment where it's been like almost like a red card or where you had you had the a plan and everything went pete tong as it were way too many you know like like realistically most people listening who have started a business would have started in finance or marketing or e-com or they'll have this like superpower which is highly relevant for their business.

54:55Me and Dom started and our superpower was like being able to tackle or run. It's like you can't really push that into a workplace. So there's brilliant stuff in terms of contacts and sort of ability to, like I say, take hits and that durability, I guess. That's really good. I mean, I definitely see that come through. but ultimately when we started the first three years we were trading poorly and we were making poor decisions and you know we set up a kiosk in a two kiosks and two shopping centers what abouts black uh was it blue water or black water blue water one of the waters yeah yeah you know in a in a category in we started at cvd which is just so not ready for that and i probably still wasn't ready for that.

55:50What was the kiosk? Kiosk, like nice, like, you know, units. Selling the spray. Selling sprays, selling different products. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it was just like, first two weeks of sales were like, well, we're going to have to close this immediately. It's just not. And like the time and effort and design and sort of everything that goes into that and the wastage and so on, you know, things like that just repeated over and over again but you you eventually start learning you sort of like i've got to adapt i've got to get a mentor in to help me here or to you know you just you just you work your way through it and if you don't then you fail ultimately and that's why a lot of companies fail so i think the biggest thing for me yeah the biggest like red card moment was just these continuous like jabs i guess um and so it's like they never knocked us out but it was like bloody hell well we could we could do without this and i think now like we've now built a brand which we're super proud of we're you know near profitability we're you know we're in a load of different retails we we're responsible for seven soon to be eight people who you know have mortgages have kids have you know like they are we're responsible for future pensions all these sort of things which we'd be super proud of and and um and yeah definitely worth making a load of the mistakes but like you also there's like sharp moments there where you go right we've got to learn and we've got to learn quicker than this because otherwise we're going to make one too many mistakes and we will bleed out what are some of the sharp moments that you kind of pass on to our listeners as vital learning so that they don't lean out.

57:37What are some of those in that early period? I think, and not really one too distance, like I started to realise it too far away, maybe a year or so ago, was the importance of your own time is just mad. It has to be purpose and thought behind a meeting or giving time for a meeting and it's not like you can do it in a manner which isn't selfish, but it has to be like, and a question we'd ask ourselves as players like is this team first like am i thinking of the team first in this decision or this like me doing extras or whatever it is is it team first or am i making myself too tired for the game or like whatever it is is it team first i think with with being a founder or being an employee is like is this worthwhile time or is it just something which i like to do or is it something which i'm i have a preference over doing some of the harder little more gritty stuff or um but ultimately yeah figuring out the value of time but also not only your time but if you're booking a meeting with me like it's my time as well now you're dipping into so the value of time and actually what you can so if you save that time what you can get done in the rest of the opportunity cost is is is really huge um uh i think that's that's a big one but probably like yeah another big one and something I just try to focus a lot on is like what are you focusing on is that thing going to push the needle it's similar but it's I guess time and also time and sort of what your main focuses are because it's so nice to set up a small sale here but if I'm not focusing on a big retailer and you know that's actually something going to bring 10 times more volume and then you know am i just pleased is it pleasing the ego is it pleasing yourself type thing rather than um and how do you what are some of this because i've i've struggled with this as well and i'm one of the way i've got quite good at it over because i've got a very scatty like brain right and like one of the things i ask myself is if you could only spend two hours on the business this week yeah where would you spend it?

59:53And that question forces you to be like, right, okay, so like, don't fanny around with Instagram reels. Like, you've got a big guest coming on, do that prep, get that edit out, bosh, done. Do you know what I mean? So that's been really helpful for me. And then like the 80-20 rule of like, you know, 20 % of your revenue. Like, what are some of the ways you, things you put in place to be cognizant of your own time? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, 100%. like everyone does lists or prepping or planning or sort of where they, you know, a task comes up, where they, how they house that. I think for me, my three KPIs for the quarter are right at the top of that list.

1:00:33So anytime I'm looking near that list, I'll get a reminder that like that is, come on, stop doing that. I need to focus on that. But I think that's, I think, I think like, clearly the just self-will and discipline to to stick to those things is is the biggest thing it's quite hard but it's like so the other thing is like okay well why aren't you sticking to those things is it because your bandwidth is like so overrun that you you know you can't so is it breaking up the day so that you you make sure that you are heading out or you have lunch outside or whatever like breaking up the day from a sort of practical point of view so that you can give yourself time to like block your emails in the morning or you know do all your whatsapp or your whatever it is so that you know you've got good focus time and you're in the right position so for me i have to i have to work from a we work or work from an office because if i'm at home i'm not working as as you know as as well as i can i'm are you guys based i'm distracted um we work out of WeWork so we've got all access.

1:01:42Oh, nice. Yeah, so it's actually a, it is a, yeah, I sound like a WeWork representative. Get all cheeky commission. Yeah, I'm fully sold on sort of open workspace. Yeah. I think we went from saving, we're going to sign up for office for about 35 grand a year to, you know, saving half that through WeWork or through office like shared workspace. basin but also all the time we're going off track anyway but you know i know what you mean but it's it's it's just interesting in terms of what you're basically saying there is the environment and how do you create we talked right at the beginning about culture environment how that creates like winning teams yeah yeah same thing with cbd it's just one's putting a ball over an arm or kicking it through the post the other's selling cbd um well let's get let's go to the genesis of of of four five um i suppose for listeners like you and your business partner don both second rows fours fours one number five's the other number so it's a great perfect name um talk to me about the first day you guys sort of sat down and said right we need to keep to create a brand or and where you i think if i've read it right you were like you had injuries and you but you weren't allowed to because the technicalities yeah use it but like what year was this like talking through that yeah so 2018 wada took cbd off the banned substance list so wada is a world anti-doping association right so they're the body that kind of tests you for you know comes at your house at five in the morning and drugs test you to check you're not taking steroids or recreational drugs so so they took cbd off the banned substance list in 2018 in start of two we both me and dom were on the physio bed with both having knee operations um so kind of we sit next to each other in the changing rooms though um and just discussing like right what is there any way we can like sort of get fitter quicker um and dom came across cbd from uh some athletes that were using it in america uh and sort of brought it into the changer and brought into our lives and and i guess off the back of i've got good results from recovery perspective uh sleep for me was something which i do tend to sleep well but sometimes when you're in periods of like periods of injury and things where like you're you're a little bit more stressed because you know it matters for you to get back on the field um that was that was brilliant so i guess off the back of that we knew we wanted a we knew we had products which was interesting and sort of at the beginning of a phase um and for me we weren't like they weren't tested products the quality that we need it so a lot of us are hydration tablets our nutrition range all informed sport tested so it's you've got like all bscg tests where it's like a banned substance group which test your products to to say that 400 things are not in here and so on so we weren't we weren't um there wasn't a product there that was tested enough so we went about basically creating a product so we jumped on a train to nottingham jumped on train to bath to a load of other places to look at supplies and sort of figure out how we can do this to a standard which that we are comfortable sharing with other professional athletes oh my god i am so so so excited it feels like hungary is finally swimming in the big leagues i can't believe this it's absolutely mental but delighted to announce that big fish yes big fish are part of the podcast perry's been on the podcast three times listeners absolutely love it some of my most downloaded and cherished episodes of all time but big fish are behind literally so many brands in your cupboard in your weekly shop charlie biggum year valley tyrells clipper tea goo rana i mean make the list is longer than the river nile but they also share risk and invest in brands that they really believe are a force for good that brands that they believe are going to be the next big thing like how the snack that gives back but even more exciting news big fish want to speak to the next wave of small challenger food and drink badgers that are destined for big things the raconteurs the movers shakers buccaneering visionaries so look if you want to speak to big fish and just have a chat get your plan in front of them then drop me a message my mate louis from local beer amazing beer was in their office aka la fishbowl uh last week chatting to perry freddie and the big fish crew so drop me a message if you would like to speak to them at what point did you do you think like we're going to build a brand out of this or was that always was that day dot do you know what i mean or was this like we're using this this is unreal yeah yeah it was kind of like right we're on board with this as a product and we feel like there's an opportunity so let's just give it a punt and if it you know if it works it works um and i think yeah like i said we just got really good reception i think from our our perspective as a like we're obsessed with you know trying to make your and especially at that point in our careers or the last five years of our careers like your body saw your your mind saw your you know it is like i said it's it's tough recovery takes longer so i guess we're kind of obsessed with how can we optimize our nutrition how can we optimize our whatever we're taking, those sort of one percenters.

1:07:09So we started in CBD, but we've got a range of nutrition products and hydration products, which kind of are all products we'd taken when we were sports players. And what did you, because four and five for listeners, as I say, is a second row position. You guys were playing that at Saracen together, if I've read that right yet. cool so what are specifically in those two positions obviously it's the brand name as well what are the lessons you and dom took from from being in the scrum again for listeners like the second row is kind of the not the end well we say it's the engine in the scrum is probably the best way of saying it yeah it's the ones who are super untalented but really big and can push hard and tackle so yeah and what what would you say the lessons you take from from specifically scrumming that you applied to brand building?

1:08:03Not many. I mean, you've got like your head's up someone else's ass and you've got to push incredibly hard. So if there's any correlation between head down and push, then there's something there. But like I said, pushing the scrum has very little to do on a P &L or it doesn't teach you much when you want to pitch to an investor or Boots or Holland Barrett. You've got to figure those things out. You've got to learn those things much like anyone else has. So it gives you traits to push and to work hard and to work with other people and be a team player. But the finer detail, you either need to employ it or learn it.

1:08:50Yeah, I agree. But I think the ability to head down and push, there's a lot in brand building. because I think it's like the amount of people who wouldn't who would maybe get an investor say no yeah and then kind of yeah as you said let it bleed kind of thing whereas it's like you guys you and Dom was like head down we just keep pushing there's something there's a lot in that and I think that's actually you can have all the knowledge in the world but if you don't have that bit then yeah you know those are as we said right beginning those are the foundations yeah who did you bring on I know you talked about getting a mentor who have you brought on around you to help you find out how to work in retail, how to build a brand, how to employ people, etc.

1:09:35So early days, like I said, we're quite good at recognising weaknesses as players because you're told once a week, you're crap at this, work better at this. So I think we recognise early doors that we wouldn't be in the position to just come in and run it like, well, when we were running the company, but without mentors. So for me, it was like, okay, well, I need to get a group of people around us that I can trust implicitly. So I went about getting investment from certain people. But basically what you're saying is you're plugging your gaps with other people, potentially an accountant, people who've done that but have a vested interest in four or five.

1:10:19Yeah, and basically just creating these pillars around you so that if you've got a accountancy problem, like you could go to someone who you know has got your back. I think that's like when you're starting up stuff, agencies are there for the pill for you and a lot of them are brilliant. A lot of them are not. But you get that across a wide range of things. So I needed to make sure that we had people in our corner in certain areas. But likewise, on the brand side, Like we've got 20 plus international athletes invested in us. So it's kind of like, who have you got a wide range of people? You look on companies out, but yeah, a good, a good range of different athletes.

1:11:01But I think for me, it's like, how, how can I make sure that we've got this sturdy group of people around us who are going to like last the test of time. And, and, and within that, like we needed people in retail background. We needed people with, you know, a completely wide range of different things. which also within that, like the network themselves, they can also sort of speak to each other and trust each other and use each other as well. So for me, it was like trying to create a sounding board, an advice board for us, but also something that was like slightly more than just, look, here's some money, here's an investment.

1:11:38It was like, okay, we'll try and do events. We'll try and, you know, you can use each other and network and so on. Super smart. That's building the buy-in, not just from the employees that way, but also that way as well, which is super. Yeah, for sure. And they've been absolutely brilliant. I'd say 80 % every time we've done a raise have followed their raise, which is huge. And yeah, they've helped out with loads of different advice, mentors. I've got a guy, Simon Scott, who has done a lot of stuff with professional teams and military, but he's also a mentor in terms of like if me and Dom have an issue or we're stuck on something, like we'll go to him and, you know, he'll voice it in almost like a therapist but business sense.

1:12:25So he'll talk through – he won't necessarily give us the answer, but he'll give us the questions we need to ask ourselves to figure out those answers, which is – Yeah, I love that. One of my favourite quotes is Bioasis, but the question – the answer lies in the question. Yeah. And actually it's just like asking – if you ask the right questions, you'll get you'll find the answers yourself is there an example of that where scott's helped out like specifically because i think again lots of our listeners are on your path yeah yeah yeah i've made a different category but yeah yeah well about nine months ago we made two people redundant which were our first our first like enter into that sort of realm employment realm yeah um so So obviously, like, when you care a lot about your employees and it means something, it is tough.

1:13:13And especially when it's your first time, it's even tougher. So it kind of just helps strategize and sort of look into how the whys and sort of come up with a fair package as well and those sort of things. So just making sure that, you know, we go home at the end of that day and think, like, it's upsetting, but I can generally feel like we've done everything we can to make that a good decision from a business and also investor and sort of wider people who all have EMI. So that decision needs to be taken in. But also that, you know, the individual goes home and isn't thoroughly put out. And how, I know this is a million dollar question, but how do you do that?

1:13:55because it's something I haven't actually talked about in the podcast, but it's so, so important. Like every business has to cross that path, right, or cross that chasm. How do you deliver that message in that way to make sure someone isn't? Yeah. Like God-given honesty, I think, is one of the key things. But for us, it was quite clear that there were departments which weren't working for us, so we needed to change tack. So we started with a lot of events and lots of social media side. That wasn't necessarily working for us, but we hadn't had someone who was headed up our retail. We had Dom, but he was self-admit, that's training on the job.

1:14:40And it's such an important part of your mix. You need the right experience in the right places. So we had that. And we've also, this week, bringing in an e-commerce lady who will head that. So for us, it was just being as open and as honest as you can. And I know sometimes it's different scenarios you can't really, but being as open and as honest and ultimately, like I said, trying to work through a package which is fair. I want to talk about Jason Carl Fox. is he what is is he involved in the brand or what's so he's an investor right but also for for a bit has been an ambassador yeah but yeah he's an he's an investor he's also highly likeable yeah yeah what's he because sorry for this is SAS who dares wins is what's he taught you because he seems like a super yeah because what I like what I'm really learning from you George is your ability to pull in different people from different areas and then that makes you you know and your team better what's he taught you?

1:15:57Look I think I think even just from sitting around and like you know having beers and sort of food and outside of sort of work environment he's just got a lot of stories which like kind of that that military and professional sport I'm not obviously they're worlds apart but there's a lot of correlations between team environment, sort of the pitfalls post of losing your identity of what you were and what you are and complete change of lifestyle, often from physical, active to sedentary, sort of like you might be office-based. So I think a lot of bits you can pick from him in terms of how he's gone about his business in the past through his work in the forces.

1:16:42and there's lots of like discipline and sort of a lot of things that can be taken out of the forces which are super relevant and very, I guess, inspiring. But yeah, I think more day to day, like when I've done gym sessions and fitness sessions with him, he is an animal. And he can... What sort of sessions do you make you do? Because I think in fact, that's what I saw on your Instagram. Yeah, no, just stuff that will make you question uh question yourself a bit but um you know and a lot of those stuff we would have done stuck in a you know training camps and all those sort of bits but it definitely takes you back to a darker place sometimes which is quite fun and what role does training play in uh in creating space now between the business you and the business uh a lot like i i'm obsessed with sort of non-impact stuff at the moment which you know after 15 years or so of impact and sort of eight operations seven epidurals like you you feel your body sometimes so for me swimming hot yoga hot pod yoga is i'm obsessed with it um and then also uh cycling i bike to work and i bike around the place yeah it's almost like the opposite of that big what you're doing yeah and also i'm not really in like for the moment and i i do i'm sort of start to feel the urge i need a bit more like i don't know testosterone sort of uh competition in my life but for the last year it's been bliss not having to put a number on something or target or i bet yeah it's been so nice and sort of actually enjoy trying different types of exercise uh you know like yoga wouldn't have done it before or loads of different things hi there guys thank you so much for listening as always means the absolute world to me before we jump into this episode i need a really big big big big favor i have pitched some massive guests humongous guests and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough please please please just hit the subscribe button on apple or spotify or follow ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations equals hopefully better insights for you which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well so please hit that subscribe button and yet enjoy this episode.

1:19:03You briefly touched upon the transitioning from kind of sport to other areas. What, like there being a loss of identity, what I suppose I want to go into now is these things that fans think they understand but have no idea, right? I think injury is definitely one. The other one is finishing your career. um let's start with that so so what what is this what's so hard about the transition from from rugby and something else and i know you've got a brand that may have helped with that but across your peer group and your friends like talk to me about that i think to break it down as simple as possible in sport you're in this mad bubble where you're given everything your training program your nutrition you've got physio you've got almost a one-on-one sort of ssc coach you've got you know you've been told what to do you so there's not you'd have to figure loads out um uh and i think when you're then taken back into a normal environment and you you know you have to go do your laundry you have to go do your your you know organized meetings you have to like all the stuff that everyone does and does sort of has been sort of filtered and built into um over time it's kind of a cliff face you have to do that immediately plus the fact that you know you're not getting this small ego praise which you know for scoring tries or being you know you're not involved and so you lose that you lose your identity and if rugby is your only identity which it is for a lot of it or professional sport or military is your only identity then that can be crippling in itself um and then you have to layer on the fact that you you know you were doing exercise and you're feeling good and you're you know you you're probably in the shape of your life and you you know there's there's those things and then you flip that to you know having to do nine to six or whatever uh and you aren't being able to fit in um you know exercise as much as you want and so that like lifestyle like changes as well so there's a number there's a number of things but i think like i said that the ones who who pride themselves as like rugby is everything i think they they tend to have the biggest downfall um so the clubs help with that transition yeah yeah they do they do and they do they're doing a much better job and uh the rpa so rugby players association help with the welfare side of that but ultimately it's like 60 or 65 percent um leave and will have sort of mental health issues uh which is which is a mad mad stat but i think this is why like you look at say what saracens did where they you know encourage you we had a rule under 24 you had to go and do something outside of outside of rugby so trades course university it's like these sort of things it just allows you to prepare for later like it prepares your routine of you know stepping outside the bubble and having to organize with a another student you know a catch-up date here where you need to do your coursework or all these sort of things it allows you to learn puts in those sort of breaks which is just not rugby as everything because if it's everything and then it's nothing it can be an absolute head fuck yeah head fuck and do you know and you like not to have to give names but anyone who's really struggled with that or like loads loads loads yeah yeah yeah as a fan yeah I know this is me being super naive here but as fans you just think oh you know rugby players maybe lesser rugby players but definitely footballers they've got dough they've got money they've got contacts they'll walk into a job but it's like I think you may walk into a job we're in the city right now but I think it's the identity change which people don't think about which is you've gone from being on a pitch to suddenly nine to five in an office and that's yeah I think a lot of them a lot of them wouldn't give you a sob story because it's an unbelievably privileged job to be a professional rubber player or sports player and walk out in front of 80 ,000 and play for your country.

1:23:22There's big, big highs there. But ultimately, it's factors. 60%, 65 % end up with mentors. There is a big issue. And I'm not sure you can fight against it by installing things in your life which ensure that it's not just this or if you do get injured, you've got something to fall back on. You can do those things. But ultimately, you go from high highs and then you go into a more everyday life and it's wildly different. It's tough for people to cope sometimes. What is the highest high? Because I've interviewed a guy, in fact, you probably know him, Thomas Robson Canoon does the term. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:24:09but you know he scored that like unreal goal yeah he scored an unreal goal for Wales that put him through the quarterfinals and one of the questions I'm gonna ask him is like how do you replicate that buzz yeah can you replicate that buzz is that what was the biggest buzz for you and like and can can you replicate that in the normal world yeah all of that um biggest but like loads and loads you know like winning big trophies like European trophies is is huge and then the the excitement that comes with the you know the next couple days of you know enjoying yourself and having a having a well relaxing yourself um i think that is that's huge uh and highly enjoyable i think how you replicate for me it's just understanding that i'm not going to be able to replicate it you know that's as as much as like replicating it i think you have to find different different hobbies different loves um and and yeah like you have you have to just ultimately adapt and and and for me like like i said i've never prided myself on like rugby is my identity so that therefore when you say okay you finish and i've got 40 weekends back of the year and i can go do this this and this and i'm going to go to this country on my own terms i can plan my brother's wedding i can there's loads of stuff so for me it was like it's a win-win if i'm playing i'm playing if i'm not then i've got a whole life to be getting on with and i think for me i want to do a lot of different chapters because I think I read something that was quite fascinating if you if you change something big in your life every five years you it's just one more box tick to you know try for happiness or like you know more like you will enjoy your life more so you know I want to fit in a lot of different chapters a lot of different things I think that's what other things would you do obsessed with food I want a restaurant at some point oh really yeah and I know that would be absolute dog work and I know that what sort of food do you like?

1:26:07ramen really? yeah have you been to that neighbourhood place in in so there's a guy who's got a restaurant Ivan in New York yeah I've had a ramen in New York yeah and he was on Chef's Table yeah yeah yeah but he's got a pop up in I'm actually going with James Tyler on Thursday yes but ramen's banging yeah yeah wait so what that's interesting so what sort of I went to Japan for two years so Well, yeah, that segues perfectly because I want to talk about that. Because you played for... The Wild Nights. Yeah, yeah. Panasonic. What... So talk to me about Japan because I think that place is the most mentally interesting, wild place.

1:26:46Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did living in Japan change your outlook on the world? Yeah. When I was like 26, 27, I told both England and Sari's coach that I would be moving abroad around sort of 20, 29, 30. Sorry, at 26? Probably about 20. It was probably about 27. Yeah. Yeah, at least a year or two out. Because just… Just because it's good for them to plan, but also I knew I was going to do it. So for me, it was more about asking advice from, do you know any contacts here? There's ways of doing different stuff, and I felt like it wasn't like I was trying to boost my salary or trying to play the game.

1:27:37It was like, I'm going to be doing this, and I'm passionate about, I want to do this. Because I'd lived south of London, and then I grew up south of London. I then moved straight from school to Saracens, north London. I spent 28 years of my life in and around London it was like I thought I've got to use this opportunity to do something different so for me that was like there were offers in France but you know the difference between France and Japan is wild just like it is England to Japan so yeah I headed out there and I think doing those sort of things or starting a business or it definitely opens your mind to go right I can actually do whatever I want like you're not limited by uh you know you think you're limited by a lot of stuff but realistically like you just gain you gain a bit of confidence to go right i yeah i can do that sort of stuff or i could hopefully one day start a restaurant and you know there might be a chance that it succeeds you know it kind of gives you a bit more confidence i'd say um but ultimately like i wanted to yeah i I wanted to test new culture.

1:28:48I wanted to see different people. It was brilliant for me in terms of it's a seven-month season and I was playing 16 games rather than 35. So it was a lot less on your body. So did you leave Saracens to do this? Left Saracens, left England to go to Japan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And where were you? Is it near Tokyo? Is it in Tokyo? It's near Tokyo. Yeah. Yeah. Like North. And what did you, how did the Japanese approach rugby training differently versus the British or the UK? Like what was there? Because as you say, our cultures are so, so different. Yeah. Yeah. The big thing is it's very, very led by hierarchy.

1:29:30So the people who your senpais, your older sort of coaches or players would have a large say in the team. so I think that was the biggest like Were you one of those because you were slightly older? I was somewhat one of those but there's still sort of people above me who you know like your captains and bits like that who you know and disagreed with stuff but obviously you know I came from an area which was I had quite strong experience in certain areas so it's just trying to like filter that and find ways to work alongside a different culture which highly sort of you know like for example i could be at saracen's and a 20 year old could be taking the piss out of me and i'd be giving it back and you know but he also could try and want to chip in with in terms of could we do this could we do this and i'd hear it and would say it and would talk about it i think like if you had a younger guy trying to take the piss out of an older japanese guy in the team it would go down very poorly really yeah go like to a point where some I feel like part of my role was also to like help dampen that a bit so Robbie Dean's the head coach would would openly sort of give me chat knowing that I was going to give it back and you know one point he gave me something I lobbed the water bottle at him and the the changing room went completely quiet just because the the hierarchy stuff so but I think in general um in general that's that's something which I underestimated even though I thought I had taken it into account just how long it would take to change stuff or how long it would take to suggest stuff and be heard and you hear lots of people who do business in japan um will go there and they'll think they're having a brilliant meeting because everyone's nodding and then you know you'll be sitting in the reception after and someone will come out and be like that's that's actually it's good we really value it we really like it but i think we're going to stick with this and you would have spent two hours talking about something so yeah like that is a consistent sort of thing but that's not to say they're right, you're wrong.

1:31:35It's just, if you're going to enter that realm, you've got to be prepared for it and sort of appreciate it. There's a book by the founder of Nike, Shoe Dog, and he talks about going to Japan. He used to take a little book called How to Do Business with the Japanese with him. Because the culture is so different. What else, not necessarily on the training pitch or on the pitch, you talked about hierarchy, which is fascinating. and I think it's interesting especially in British and Aussie and South African cultures we take the piss like it's just ingrained in our culture it's mad seeing the differences um do you like what is the value of taking the piss if that makes sense like do you see what I mean because there's there's there's some element in that yeah yeah 100 % I think um I think I think as long as it's done with like team verse in mind or like it's not like it's not pleasing your ego or like, you know, it's not an actual jab at someone.

1:32:34As long as it's like funny, like, you know, and it's like dished up as much as, you know, as given, I think that's fair. But it can definitely sort of, it can definitely like, it breaks the ice in the room, doesn't it? It allows people to, you know, humour on any level, allows people to relax a little bit and actually, you know, not be so uptight. And I think it's got, especially in sport, it's got huge, huge benefits. Yeah, and it can help. It can help entertain, but also, you know, buffer relationships, soften, dampen the sort of, the harshness of professional sport. What, back to Japan, what did you, how did you learn the language?

1:33:27like how did you oh they say that because that must have been a fuck like and how did you get in not in line, yeah get in line with that you go on a pitch suddenly speaking Japanese it's like what the fuck we had three or four translators plus a lot of the Japanese internationals you know could speak English or thereabouts so we did do lessons to you know help show that we're trying to commit and buy in but ultimately our Japanese was not up to scratch and we'd have translators that would help within either water boys that would come on and talk so you'd say something there, translate the message and vice versa so it slows things down a bit but just means that your points have got to be pretty on point

1:34:20I've interviewed a few people who've been in Japan and then created brands, minor figures that duck's from the Kyoto River. Rude Health, Camilla spent time in Japan. They both said the Japanese have some weird words that we just don't have. Is there any weird words you learn, like we just don't have, that have a meaning for anything? You don't have to do the actual Japanese accent here. No, nothing. didn't like my ones would have been very sort of um sort of your standard ones which help help you get by but i know like for some words they'll have like 10 different types of words for that actual word so i'd like love or whatever it is they'll have so many more words that will help describe sort of okay it might be young love it might be old love it might like yeah like they'll have different words that will sort of go into the meaning of it a bit more i think they've got a word for like taking a walk in nature when like the sun has just risen and it's cold outside like that's yeah it would be it's mint and there's lots of that so it's a hard language yeah yeah um loving this mate few more things then then we'll wrap this up um i want to talk about Now, what was different about you in that,

1:35:49I don't know how many people play rugby in the UK, but how did you approach training differently or everything different? We've talked about prep, but there'll be loads of other people prepping, doing scenarios, striving for that England shirt. what are the 1 or 2 % you just about George that's different from other players I think firstly there's loads of decent Sekiro's and we had a sort of good patch where there was 4 or 5 of us that were sort of almost rotating in and out through form so that was like Lawnsbury Lawnsbury, Courtney Laws, Marrow Charlie Yules, just really good crop of Sekiro's there and And I think really for me, for me, I was not good when I was young.

1:36:40I was like, I hadn't, I joined, I got a trial at Southampton's when I was 18. Like I joined a group which were like Owen Farrell, Jamie George, like a lot of players which were like been since they're 14 and everything was their life around rugby. So I joined quite late. So I think for me, it was just recognizing like, okay, where can I win? and I felt I could win by sort of carving an area so for me it was like understanding that line outs was an area which would benefit me in the long term if I became very experienced at it but also just understanding that you can really outwork people and there would have been a lot of second rows in the academy which were definitely a lot better than me when we started but you just keep chipping away and pass them on certain different metrics and measures and eventually you get picked in a certain game ahead of them and kind of they're now behind you and you focus on the next thing.

1:37:42But yeah, I'd say work rate. I mean, if you can pair up work rate with being smart around what you're working on, clearly that's a winner. But as a base level, if you want something, you have to be hard working. You have to work hard at it. like yeah yeah for sure but but it's it's just fascinating exploring this because again a consistent theme across a lot of the fans i've sat opposite is not all but there's usually some kind of they were they weren't in the academy for example like you know i speak to roger wade he did box park super interesting guys like his family like came from wealth and then went ended up living in a council estate in like east london and that gave him like a little not a chip on his shoulder but it gave him this momentum yeah this philosophy behind him and i think um as you said like not being because we went to the same school like we both went to umst john's was because you was mr platt your coach then yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um and then and then you talked about focusing on like kind of carving out the space to focus on almost your strengths and others weaknesses but but in terms of like the things you're telling yourself the story you're telling yourself to get that that white jersey like what was that like like i i don't know i'm not i'm i was sending you on like a romantic answer i think i really i think yeah i think for me it's just understanding like i could like you could wear hits you know you could wear like you could take feedback and you could work extremely hard that was as simple as my game plan was to be honest um yeah i think like to me there wasn't much more and and for me it was like you could see it was quite a step process so i was i came in at 92 kgs i built myself to i don't know 120 audit by the end like it was you could see so that alone is like okay you're gaining muscle you're gaining weight you're becoming stronger but like that in terms of you played an academy game you played a second team game you played a first team you played european first team you played england lions like it was like those sort of things it was all kind of step loaded so i could see the benefit of the hard work which was fascinating for me and much like what i see in four or five now it's like okay I'm making these decisions so much quicker than I ever was before because you know you've been through and you sort of understand that the hard work is plays it's good justification for for putting in the effort like that we're like making less mistakes or uh or the severity of the mistakes are less and what what is the goal with four or five because you've talked about the EMI like and what I find fascinating is how you've gone not just on the CBD but into the I think you've got the hydration yeah physical effervescent that's what you said yeah yeah what is the the game plan like we've talked a lot about pulling people with the team pulling investors in like where's this ship going yeah look ideally we're a build to sell model in time um the first founder has actually been honest about that as well yeah i mean it's like i'm it it is it's like i want to create something which is brilliant but i also want to build a cell because i want to do lots of things in my life um so but it's not like in the next year or you know so we need to we need to build properly build strong foundations which we're definitely doing now and we're seeing the rewards for that um but in terms of like engot we're highly passionate about creating very good products so a lot of like what we've done is taken the product we were taking and dialing them right out.

1:41:38So taking out all the artificial sweeteners, all the like fillers and all those sort of things, putting in more bioavailable ingredients and just making sure that we've got a more efficacious product, essentially. Something which, you know, maybe we're missing in large parts of our career. And then what are the, so you're in Holland Barrett now in boots. Yeah. What are those, what does the next four or five years look like in terms of what's the game plan to build this brand out? Yeah, so we've spent the last nine months doubling down on our retail and making sure that that's set up properly. We've got good relationships.

1:42:17We've got the right spends behind it. It's all tracking in the right direction. The second part of what we need to do is really sort out our e-commerce. So we've got a website. It's fine. But we're yet to do after four years paid ads, which is fascinating to you know to build a company to where we are at the moment without paid ads so we'll be uh we'll be looking into that in the next sort of three or four months and and really making sure that our our e-commerce offering is is as good as you can get on uh in store yeah that's there's a guy interviewed do you ever see space goods yeah yeah i interviewed him on the podcast he was saying he'd got almost the other way around built d2c then going to retail um which is super interesting and most do really like most build enough volume that you can then start hit metrics and so on but for us it's just the way it sort of landed and that's that's so we've yeah we've we've tried to work backwards in that sense but it's good like we want to be set up in retail amazon and online and then sort of any i guess any ad you do put out there you know someone could buy it a little bit easier and then what's what's one like who's the most sort of underrated player you've played with um and what did that he teach you um underrated player and he's getting a lot of raps at the moment um is i'd say will skelton he's a guy who is he showed me on the scales the other day he's at 152 kgs uh which is huge uh so he's 100 and you're 120 i was 120 i'm now about 105 so he's a third bigger than me and i'm still quite bigger to me down here so um so yeah he he was he's brilliant because like he was phenomenal on field like a person that that size and that that power uh you can really like use quite smartly if you've got decent coaches you can use to good effect um but also off field he was incredible in terms of galvanizing people and sort of he used humor very very well um and you know now he's he's been for the world cup he was captain of australia so he you know he's he's grown phenomenally well um not just in the sense of his body but he's grown well and he's a he's a very well-rounded player um final question mate is what's one piece of advice you would give yourself if you were to go back to the beginning of four or five what's some things you tell yourself you go back to the beginning of four or five um or do differently maybe yeah like it would be it would be like a book an infinity book but what we do differently i think i think i'll protect my time a bit more and i'd i'd make sure that whatever i was focusing on is is the most important thing because there's you know we went down like doing lots of events and actually when we got a consultant to come in and look and like speak to us about okay you're harming yourself doing these events because you're pulling out the why to do the events out of curiosity just because you thought just naivety we thought that that would be and events can work brilliantly for people but yeah i now know that events are going to be a huge part of our our business but in a year's time when everything else is set up you know because if you're doing events but your e-commerce is crap then like you're only doing the event to get people to send them to your website but when they get there if they bounce too quick then that's that's because you've your foundations aren't built properly so So for me, it would be like, yeah, it'd be built like focusing more on the foundations initially and follow less sort of, oh, flashy, this is quite nice, this feels good type thing.

1:46:18George, pleasure, mate. I've thoroughly enjoyed that. Cheers. Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, please do give it five stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes next door but one, cat, dog whatever, please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands, please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much

1:47:01Bye.