Why You Have To Think Differently to Win a Michelin Star in 2026 - Emily Roux

30:06Emily Roux:For example, I'm not a huge lamb lover. I eat it absolutely fine. I eat pretty much anything. But if it was on a menu, on an a la carte, I wouldn't necessarily go for that specific meat. And then when I have it as a set tasting menu somewhere, I'm not going to say I want to avoid it because I eat it. I mean, sometimes it's a bit lamby. I know that. Yes, exactly. That's when I'm a bit... Yeah, sometimes it's just a bit funky. Yeah, exactly. A bit funky, isn't it? We're on the same page. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for that reason, I was like, I don't, you know, if we do a tasting menu, I don't want to impose a dish on someone.

30:47Emily Roux:And that's also avoiding the, well, actually, I don't like lamb. Can I have something else? Because you've chosen. So everyone's happy. As you said, like consumer is literally choosing what they want. And in the kitchen, I don't deal with the, oh, can I avoid strawberries or can I avoid? yeah yeah yeah coffee for example yeah so interesting yeah it's so smart so it's it's it works incredibly well obviously it is more challenging for the kitchen because you can have typically if two people are having every yeah other you get the whole menu yes yeah um which is logistically more challenging for the kitchen but we have a pretty short menu you know we've got four starters, four main courses, four desserts.

31:38So it is achievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you come up with that? Did you spot that on other menus or were you just sort of scratching your own?

31:48Emily Roux:I don't think I've seen it. Yeah, I haven't seen it anywhere else. Anywhere else. I mean, to that extent. Yeah. What other things do you do differently to most kitchens? And actually restaurants more from the front of house size as well. Well, I think we are slightly different. It's because both Diego and I are here every single day, which don't get me wrong. There are loads of small independent restaurants where chefs are there every day. But with us, it's like we really do everything. I mean, I can be answering the phone to customers. I'm on emails answering customers. I do the HR. I help with most of the accounts.

32:33Emily Roux:Jay goes with suppliers every day.

32:39Emily Roux:We do everything in this little business. This was our first little baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we know the ins and outs of everything. And I think if you were working with us and you had questions or wanting to open your own business later down the line, this is a great place to learn. I mean, our general manager, who's amazing, Mattia, he's he's been with us for nearly four years now i think we're coming up to four years i think and we recently had an eho inspection and and eho so health and safety environmental health and the documents that you have to do and the paperwork that is involved in that is a monster of a job in itself.

33:33Emily Roux:And I think he'd be ready to open a restaurant tomorrow because we do it together. We go through everything together and we make sure that we're on top of everything together.

33:46Emily Roux:It's a job in itself, you know. And I think that's probably things that you may not be able to see or that happen sort of behind the scenes in certain places. whereas because we're here every single day and do it on the daily basis with them where you sort of get the best of everything. It's like sinking as we were saying, almost like having this almost element, I know patience keeps coming up, but almost it's like when you're here, you have more time to sink into it. Almost have your octopus tentacles. Absolutely. But I love that. I really genuinely love being here. and what I learn as well, you see.

34:26Emily Roux:Like we had our first rent review recently. That was fun. The first one we ever did. I've learned a lot. Clearly I was naive or we were naive and didn't, well, just didn't grasp how it happens and what happens. So our rent review is every year can only go upwards. And is that with a landlord? It's with a landlord. Yeah. And thankfully, from the get-go, we've had a very good relationship with the landlord. And by that, I mean just good, clear communication. Yep. So through COVID, et cetera, we managed to find a solution that worked for everyone, talk through it, et cetera, et cetera. Anyways, a friend review arrived.

35:13and I thought you know potentially a conversation even a sit-down conversation a phone conversation would we would come to terms that everyone agreed to yeah um Diego and I had thought

35:28Emily Roux:about a percentage that we thought was was fair and adequate obviously only upwards um going forward and that was declined and we had to um employ a chartered surveyor to deal with how we could work around this because they were asking for triple the figure that we had suggested basically um which i think was fair so we fork out quite a lot of money to to get somebody to investigate and so they they do a full report on on what's been going out around really locally as as close as possible to us physically in the same sort of um same domain so a restaurant or bars things like that yeah and then recalculate all square meter etc you know really proper proper job fascinating fascinating and he was like yeah emily i think what you offered was actually quite generous um i would suggest honestly a two percent increase that's that's that's what it's worth he said i he you know they might not bite for that because it's too small we'll hopefully find a happy medium in between what you had previously suggested what we suggest and great that got refused even with all the evidence and everything produced that got refused um and then by this point i'm thinking but who who's going to win at the end of this yeah like what is the point of this apart from me forking out money for a chartered surveyor the landlord who's going to have to get a chartered surveyor to confront mine i don't know terminology of this but basically that's what happens and then if they can't find a solution then it goes off to our ICS who will then do the final bang yeah so you're all in limbo with all of this I've got my accountants being like right Emily what's the you know what's going to be the the rent next month I don't know still don't know it's been six months I still don't know we're still in limbo um and I've still tried to sort of kept a conversation with the landlords and he was like look, I can no longer deal with this.

37:47Emily Roux:It's with surveillance. Okay, right, great. And all of that in the end, once we've sent a letter to sort of officially say, right, this is what we're suggesting, take it or we're going to the next level, sort of to court essentially. And that was agreed. So we forked out all of that money to get a price that was lower that I had suggested on the initial conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're getting three times left than what they had suggested. Yeah. So no one's happy. My chartered surveyor's got more money in his pocket and he did a great job. I'm not, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But these are things people don't think of.

38:33You know, we eat one of these gorgeous, delicious plates of food. All this just... Yeah. It's always there in the background. It's the mundane behind the beauty.

38:39Emily Roux:There's always something. There's always something. What's your, like, I think a lot of it is just ultimately every day there's problems. Like, how do you stay, maybe another character trait, it's like calm in chaos. Like, what's the, like, yeah, talk about that. Well, I do love sports. I've always liked sports. I like, I quite like high-intensity stuff. I like classes that you come out dripping off. What, like a Barry's or like a... Yeah, hit class or things like that. I love it. Yeah. but I've also recently gone into swimming oh nice yeah so I I try and do that two or three times a week who I'm thinking about who was I really really enjoy it really enjoy it was it Tom I think Tom Kerridge got into swimming that was his thing that kind of got him but he was saying because you're under the water you can't like it's almost very I mean it's very therapeutic I'm like a sort of dog paddling but like I do like it it's that very you can't really think of anything else because there's no there's no stimulus or input well I hate running I don't I can't run I'm trying to run the marathon it's fucking boring that's it even on a treadmill with watching something I still feel like I'm looking at the really it's only two minutes whereas swimming I tend to look at the watch after like 15 minutes I'm like oh fabulous I can do another three or four of these so yeah I'm really really enjoying that and i think as you said it's sort of quite therapeutic quite calming and you're in your zone and you just you do you which is lovely and that almost is like that unleases the valves you can see when you come here it's just like that's that done interesting what's so with i want to explore kind of the the cultural view of and like approached almost food across so japan france and britain like you've been in all those kind of uh in those countries what would you how are they similar and how are they different?

40:39Emily Roux:Maybe start with like, let's start with Japan because that's kind of the craziest place. I think I went there a couple of years ago. Well, I think there's such a, a devotion to food and ingredients and like the quality of them. And like when you go to markets and supermarkets, I went to this supermarket, I don't know the name, can't remember. But every individual fruit and vegetable looked like it had been immaculately cleaned and like put in a certain position and it was like it looked like jewelry oh yeah you know like so perfect everything was just like you can you can tell that someone spent a lot of time and effort into doing that but the butchers the fishmongers they were all the same you know all of these meats were just like little jewels and all wrapped up tightly and in towels or paper and so neat, so professional, so beautiful, which I don't think you, yeah, you've got beautiful butchers and things like that, but not to that extent.

41:45There's almost like the perfection of.

41:47Emily Roux:Yes. Yeah. Sometimes it's a little too much. They would wrap individual grapes. Yeah. I was thinking, oh, maybe not. But do you see what I mean? Sure. And it's like regimented and every ingredient is like, wow. And I think that sort of shows when you eat like omakase or, you know, when you see a master sushi that's like slicing his fish and looking after that produce, you're like. Yeah, they ain't messing around. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something that you would have to master over years and years and be, like, immersed in there to get it, like, at that level. I think I'm a bit late now for that.

42:38Emily Roux:Or I'd have to spend several years catching up on that. But I think, for example, like, France and Italy, for example, are really similar in their food culture. How so? Heritage. which like both Jake and I grew up with like family meal is sacred and you all sit down with extended family and you have a great meal. And there's absolutely no distractions apart from a great conversation, great food and great wine. And I think that really is France and Italy have that culture from, you know, even from like babies. they will sit at that table in their high chair and we'll be given bits and bobs to eat from the table and that's what your sundae is going to look like yeah full stop yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um with obviously different foods i mean um but sharing style as well like you know big dishes in the middle that we just help yourself and and pass around and i think that's lovely yeah it's really beautiful it's that almost coming together of yes generous conviviality of the yes interesting and i think when you get that as a child then you cannot not love food and eating out yes because you've just been you know in immersed in that sort of food culture and love of people and talking and eating and drinking it's the most stunning it's the most like that's it's the best form of merriment yeah what about in then in terms of britain then i know like well how's that and you can be as honest as you want well i think i think it's taken more time yeah to get to there i think now we are in the golden ages yeah like i think now i mean we we are beyond lucky with all the restaurants that we have and and and the caliber of these restaurants like paris hasn't got that i think I haven't been there in a while.

44:40Emily Roux:I could be wrong. Parisians are going to hate me. But I think London is just like a melting pot of intensely brilliant restaurants from all different cultures. And you can have the best meals. The, oh, who was it? There's a guy who wrote a really good book called Morgan House, or The Same as Ever. And he goes, you only understand the golden ages in retrospect. Yeah. So it's like, you know, we look at the 80s, everyone was really easy to make money. The 60s was the Beatles and the music. And I was speaking to Joe Santi from Cole, the Mexican place. He's an absolute legend. I was speaking to him and he was like, from about 2012 to 2015, we had that.

45:22That was like the 1962 moment for music, for food. She had almost this melting pot of Instagram, foodies, influencers, street markets, which meant people could try things. Everything, yeah. And like... It came alive. It came alive and now it's like we're in the golden age. Oh, yeah.

45:43Emily Roux:I think it's amazing. And I think this food culture of sitting down and enjoying with family and friends, we've got that now. I mean, I know loads of families who are now sort of saying, oh, no, it was Sunday roast on Sunday. We're not going out or we'll meet at the pub or we'll, you know, we'll meet somewhere and we'll have a great meal all together as a family. So it's there now. The Sunday roast has always been kind of sacrosanct, hasn't it? like um yes but i think it was quite simple okay and it may not have been as adventurous as it would be now because everyone is so knowledgeable now about food and ingredients and where they're sourcing and what they're doing with them and what sauces can i zhuzh up or what you know what's going to make it extra special everyone's got a trick up their sleeve now yes so yeah yeah yeah the level's gone up so how would you say london's better than paris i only lived there more than 12 years ago now.

46:38Emily Roux:So we're going back a bit. Yeah, sure. So it's most definitely changed. But I think at the time, it was quite difficult to walk into a bistro that looked good from the outside and have a great meal. Great authentic bistro meal.

47:02there wasn't any amazing Asian restaurants and I love Asian so I would try and discover

47:13Emily Roux:there was nothing extraordinary at the time I think this has probably changed now in the past 12 years but just never at the speed that it did here. But it's the diversity of what you can get. Yeah, diversity I don't think is there. But even like the classic bistros, I'm telling you, like some of them are just tourist traps and you can be heavily disappointed. Really? Whereas I don't think you have that here. I think any bistros or anything, you'll have a pretty decent, I think. Maybe I just love London too much. No, I think that it was, I interviewed Nisha, surnames Escape Me who runs Mowgli.

47:58She's like one of the judges on Great British Menu. And she's an amazing story. She was a barrister, one of the most well-read people I've ever met. Has like six, seven books on the go. Just kind of a polymath, so clever. And we were talking about some of the stuff and she was like, even though it may have started from nefarious sources, the British Empire when we like we're bringing back all this stuff and we had all these absolutely we basically planted for the last 60 years all these different cultures in London coming together and then suddenly it's like someone poured gasoline on that farm

48:34Emily Roux:and then the quality's gone up that means the diversity of it is just amazing it's crazy it's next to none yeah it's mad and I love it so much what's the so Diego worked at Le Gavroche he did head chef yep I would love to know so like in let's say football for example right I don't know if you're a football fan right but like I support a team but I don't Who do you support? Oh no Okay We won't go there No Who is it? Manchester United Oh fair Well actually they're having a bit of resurgence but like what I love is when you know managers learn from mentors but then refresh or reinvent their style so for example Pep Guardiola Absolute fucking don.

49:19Arteta worked underneath him, has now reinvented his style. I would love to know what are the absolute principles you took, you guys have taken from Le Gavroche, from the family dynasty first, but then what have you refreshed or kind of juiced up?

49:33Emily Roux:Well, I think it goes even further than Gavroche because Diego worked for Alain Ducasse for over 10 years. Okay. Alain Ducasse is an incredible businessman, an incredible restaurateur, an incredible chef.

49:49and French classic cuisine, you know, at the base of it,

49:54Emily Roux:which is also a gavroche French classic. So I think we also sort of connected in that sense. That was sort of our love before we met. and I think great sauces is a big part of us and was a big part of Gavrosh and is a huge part of L.A. Duquesne. I think a dish can really be, you know, brought together and be wow thanks to a sauce or a condiment or, you know. and I firmly believe that fewer ingredients on the plate but really well executed with a fantastic sauce can just be amazing. I think with Gavache that was quite true. Most of the dishes were quite simple. That sounds really bad. Nothing is simple in what we do.

50:59Emily Roux:Everything takes time. Appear simple. Yeah, ostensibly simple. It appears simple because there's few ingredients on the plate. But a sauce takes several days to make. You know, you do your stock, you do your remouille, that goes down, you start your jus.

51:17Emily Roux:I think sauce is everything and such a huge foundation to any dish. Interesting. So the sauces are like, that's the principle you've taken from those institutions. in terms of the refreshing or like your and Diego's kind of unique thing. Well, I think we, I think all chefs sort of live in their time, right? At the moment, we're definitely lowering down our butter, our cream. But my dad would say exactly the same. So when he took over Gavroche in 91 from his father, he was like, oh, I cut the cream and butter out in half. Well, there you go. So, I mean, clearly, as a population, we're trying to cut down on fats.

52:01Emily Roux:But also butter and cream, all that is full of taste. That's how you get those delicious flavors. So I think you've also got to find alternatives of, for example, herbs, condiments, oils, smokiness, miso. There's so much stuff that you can use and play with to get those really incredible flavors. so I think yeah I think we all sort of evolve within what's happening around us so it's definitely not just a bit of blanc now yeah yeah yeah yeah it's that adaptive to your environment you said Alan Decais is an amazing business person yes how many stars has he got a lot but he's also got he's got an ice cream venue in Paris he's got a chocolate.

52:53Emily Roux:He's got, I mean, he's got everything. He's, yeah, loads of books as well. What have you learned about business from him? Like, what are some of the business principles? Well, I think because he's got such an empire. Yeah. You just, wow. Like, you know, he's got the best chocolate. He's got the best ice cream. He's got the best biscuits. He's got the best three Michelin stars all over the world. And yet he still goes to all of these places and does tastings everywhere and approves or disapproves of these dishes. And he's put the right people at the right place. There's also this leadership thing that he's continually making these amazing chefs and putting them in places to head up these restaurants who then might themselves open another restaurant.

53:35Emily Roux:And, you know, so it's like, wow. He's built this empire and this foundation of amazing chefs all over the world. So what did you learn from leadership from him? Is that like, is it the, or you guys learned with Diego? Well, again, I think it all goes back to sort of nurturing, learning and making the people around you a better team and better people and allowing them to one day say, right, I'm comfortable to open my own place. Like I've got that baggage and that knowledge that you've given me and we've learned together that I can do this. I know how to do a rent review. Yeah. Yeah, so he's got the empire.

54:17Emily Roux:Yeah, he's managed to put people there in the right places. It's incredible. And like, for example, most of Diego's friends who were colleagues and worked all together in those kitchens have now got their own restaurant. So we've got friends in Lilloo, he got two Michelin stars last year, who was working for Dukas at the same time. So like he's made these incredible chefs all over the world. What would you say is sort of underrated about him? Well, he's a very quiet and shy person. I've only met him a couple of times. He came for lunch to us when we opened and big moment as well. Of course, yeah.

55:06Emily Roux:Super proud. But like he's an incredible man. I mean, definitely someone I'd look up to in the industry, 100%. You talked, like you said, yourself and Diego are incredibly ambitious. Like what is the, is it two stars? Is it to have a dynasty, an empire? Like what's the... I think right now we just don't have enough arms to have an empire. Just because our kids are young, I think, and we want to give them as much energy as we can now. that may change when they're in their teens and don't want to see us anymore but how old are your kids? I've got a nearly six year old and a two and a half year old right yeah so they're still bubbers basically yeah yeah yeah they still need a lot of energy from us but I think I think we'd love to have two mission stars yeah but I think we're now very conscious of of how long that takes, how much.

56:12Emily Roux:There's a lot of things that we would like to change as well, reinvest in certain things at the restaurant. Such as? Cutlery, crockery, floors. There's a lot of things that we would like to touch up and redo. And that's what you think will get you to that two-star level? No, no, no, not necessarily. I think it's part of a bigger package of like, right, once we've said go, then let's put our thinking cap on. What can we invest? how much can we invest where would be the most intelligent way to invest it in um what would that make the difference for the customer because essentially you're trying to please a customer here i mean although it's it's michelin the background um you know we want that customer to feel extra extra special um from the moment they set in oh yeah yeah yeah go for it mate yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all good.

57:03So I think, you know,

57:08Emily Roux:these things don't happen overnight and we've learned that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's no reason why we couldn't get too much in the stars, I don't think. I think if we, with the team that we have and the way that we work, I think it's achievable. Could that be tomorrow? Could that be in seven years? So how do you set the tone of like, we've achieved this, we want to get to this, like, what is that gap? Like how in more like in the food sort of style of like what's from your perspective now? Because I love like when people are even with this, right? So I'm here now, like, this is where I want to get to.

57:44That gap, what do you think you need? What are the big core things you need to do to move that?

57:49Emily Roux:Well, I still think consistency is a huge thing. Like, you've got to have an incredible foundation and be consistent in that, with that team, who know your ins and outs of what you want, how you want it, the way that we've collectively designed together. And then add another layer on top of that and be like, right, how can we make this dish better as a team? like if we take this one dish that's on the menu today how could this be better what can we change it was on the menu it's a dish that we've liked but how can we take that a step further how can we desiccate this dish and say okay tomorrow how would the consumer like that even better how would a guest be even more wowed about it and it could be like a really stupid thing of crockery or cutlery or you know a little something extra that you yeah and you're like actually that that's changed it yes and and it could it could be different glasses it could be little details where it's all in those little details yes that's one thing i did was was another mind-blowing thing very unique was the the plates the dishes are served on talked like it's fucking art and like it's very it's very um maybe when we i'll get some pictures for this for the youtube we can get it on on the screen uh but like what's the process and the thinking behind that how do you think of it almost like art like i love crockery and cutbury i love it yeah i think it's i could pour immense amount of money into there if if everyone let me um what do you love about it so much like what's i think every plate is unique there's like they have different touch there's different that you know they they embellish the foods they they they can change a whole dynamic of of when it comes to you and you you see this beautiful place and you see what's inside it like there's different layers to to to a plate yeah yeah yeah and and colors do so much as well Are we staying white and super pure and letting out everything inside speaking?

1:00:08Emily Roux:Or are we going with something darker and something that's more obscure? And we'll probably have you looking more intricately at what's going on in that plate and something bright in color to stand out in a darker plate. And the texture as well. I love the textures on a plate. You sometimes see people sort of touching. Oh, is it soft? Is it grainy? Or is it? How is it? and again there is amazing amazing potters and you can get some amazing plates all over the world but they cost they come at they come at a cost you know and and looking for plates we've got a potters and clapping which is great oh really whereabouts um not far from trinity oh nice yeah that little road like the virgin active road yes yeah yeah yeah there's good It's called Nern.

1:00:54Yes, there is. Yeah, really good Thai restaurant, of which names escape me.

1:00:57Emily Roux:I can't remember, but I've been there. So many good – I went to Trinity upstairs the other week. I mean, they do fucking sauce very, very, very well. Well, Trinity, add and buy it. It's amazing. Yeah, so it's so fascinating. Yeah, because the plates almost tell stories, I feel like. There's some that we brought back from Japan when we went there. Interesting. We bought an extra suitcase and chucked a load of plates in there. they no longer are here because they break, unfortunately, over time. And when you do a new dish, you often want a new plate. So you're continuously buying. And so will you go to the Clapham Potters?

1:01:38Sometimes.

1:01:39Emily Roux:It really depends. But would you say, like, listen, mate, we want these bespooches. Does this dish first, then plate? Or do you, in your head, again, reading Satso in my brain, because we had to see that podcast, but he's got this thing called Doodles. it's really sick i don't know if you've seen that yeah his piles of like 30 sorry like 20 years of just um yeah doodling doodling and like he actually sells them and it's really cool and like but he was talking it's like that's his process like how do you see it see it yeah does it is it is it visual thing is it a taste thing is it what's the what's the emily rube i think it really depends okay interesting like it really really depends we we can i mean obviously we're always in season but like so at the moment we're really excited asparagus coming new season asparagus so we haven't had asparagus and what in a year obviously but every season you sort of get excited for what's coming up um i really love spring spring vegetables i love but for plates it's like if you imagine this dish and you think oh this will go great in the plate that we already have hallelujah but if we don't then we go on a search for for plates and and that can be with a few suppliers that we already have or we go down to the potters and say, okay, we want this size, this diameter, this colour or what can you do?

1:02:57Emily Roux:Really depends. Really depends. No, it's fascinating because I love your perspective on it because, again, the fallow guys were like, we just get the cheap white plates and let the food eat. And that's why this... But I think on that volume and that scale, I mean, if they were getting the spoke plates, jeez, it would be complicated there's no rules in all this that's why I love these conversations because how one person does one thing everyone's right but that's the beauty of our industry and hospitality everyone is doing their own thing and that's why I just love going out and discovering new places what are the places you like what really kind of wows you as a

1:03:42Emily Roux:Anything can wail me as long as it's delicious food. It can be in a cafe in a back street. What are some of those places in London? I love seeing our cafe. Where's that? It's in a little under path. It's called Rupert Street or Rupert Court. Something like that. What, in Soho? Yes. Yeah. It's a tiny cafe. My mum used to take me there. Yes. So we're talking 15, 20 years ago. yeah yeah um it hasn't really changed they just do great food and plastic plates and and it's delicious yeah um i love dim sum

1:04:26Emily Roux:honestly but i also love high-end stuff as well i love having an incredible dinner with diego and spending two three hours of just chatting about life and and enjoying insanely good food and and and touching all the crockery. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:44I think,

1:04:45Emily Roux:I think, you know, it's also all about who you're with, you know, and you have a great, just a great time with friends and great wine and, and, and yeah. It's the best. The other thing on the crockery thing is again, Lukey from Thailand is he purposely has, we were eating those little cafes. He purposely has really light. Chopsticks. No, no, not like the, you know it's almost like a it's like a spoon yes and a fork kind of thing yes it's very light and he goes and he's like the plates have to be light as well because you want it to feel it's again it's this whole pendulum can swing about where you position yourselves on that it's yeah it's mad i'd love to know about your talk about your mum yep um and her involvement in like with with your with your dad and legavroche because i don't think i feel like she hasn't had much of i've really heard about her basically and i think she's clearly massively instrumental in all of this yeah Why is she special?

1:05:37What's she doing? My mum is the most incredible woman in the entire world.

1:05:43Emily Roux:Yeah. Very cliche.

1:05:49Emily Roux:She did a hotel school. She went to a Cajun college, but more bar front of house. Right. And she came to the UK. She's French. Yes. In her very early 20s to learn English. So she was due to stay about a year working front of house to perfect her English. That happened to be in one of the restaurants that my grandfather owns in the city, French Brasserie. What was that called? I can't remember. I've read the book. There'll probably be details of what it was called. And that's where she met my father, who was running the kitchen. that was what it was and she's now never left the UK so she's been here for over 42 years I think um so yeah she's obviously knows all about the industry worked the hours and knew what she was getting herself into when she met my father and and the life that he was leading uh And then my mom is also, she loves her food.

1:07:09Emily Roux:Her mom was also an amazing chef. So my grandmother would do all the most traditional French, Southern French dishes that you can imagine. La sonquette, which is like a pork blood, looks like a pancake. it's not a pancake but and she had her spring onions lots of pepper in there bit of mushrooms it's a delicious yeah something that you think what the hell are you going on about woman but delicious and she she would oh she'd do her terrines she'd do pates like she was incredible she had four kids and and she she would yeah they were very well fed so i think my mum has always had like food in her dna and blood and so i've always been very well fed at home obviously yeah but but that was more my mum because my father was at work during the week and and would only be home um on the weekends so my mum would look after all food so i've i was sort of brought up with were you living in london where you guys okay yes yeah yeah in clapham oh so that because i thought you were in kent oh no no no so that was your dad was he was born sorry that was it yeah yeah in kent but i grew up there and and so my mum would look after all the dinners so so So it was mainly like southern French food.

1:08:33Emily Roux:And I think, I mean, she's always been sort of the backbone of like the family. Yeah, that's why I wanted to explore it. Well, first you've got to sort of, it's tricky living with someone that's not there often. like you've you've I don't know it's difficult to say from my perspective because I've always well Jacob's always been in the same industry as me so he's always had always in the same kitchen yeah yeah yeah so you know we've always come back at similar times and and always had the same days off realistically but I think for somebody who who's in a couple and the partner isn't from the industry it's really tricky to say that well every night they're not there and that they're potentially very tired on the weekend, need a bit of a catch-up and a bit of downtime to get back into a groove.

1:09:25Emily Roux:But because she was from the industry, she sort of... She got it. She got it and there was no questions of, you know, how much work one or the other person was doing, which I think can be a bit of a difficult one to say, well, I'm giving 100 % at work. Well, yeah, but I'm giving 100 % at home. and, you know, it's a difficult juggle. I think it can be a difficult juggle.

1:09:51Emily Roux:So, yeah, my mum is... And what are some of the principles you apply to the restaurant or, like, running your team, your, like, almost getting the best out of them? Well, I'd say at home I run a pretty military operation. Really? With my boys, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like to stay on top of everything. I'd say I'm pretty organised. like stuff is folded the night before for the morning yeah uh breakfast we we know what we're having i'll i'll know what i'm doing for dinner i mean for dinner it's it's i've i'm incredibly lucky because whatever i've got in the fridge i'll smash something out in the next 10 20 minutes and and how do you deal with the like almost mum guilt versus restaurant guilt that's really tricky I feel like you've got almost two.

1:10:40Yes, I've got two babies. You actually said this is our first baby. I've got two babies. Well, three.

1:10:46So do you come in and then would you go pick them up from school? It depends.

1:10:51Emily Roux:Either me or Diego. Totally depends on what we're doing throughout the day. But the normal day-to-day is we all leave together, drop the boys off at school and head to the restaurant all together. and Diego and I are here alone until the kitchen team arrived around 11 11 30 so we get all that time to prep by ourselves which is actually when you have the whole kitchen to yourself you can put the music on and you you know really therapeutic gets get a lot done which then sort of allows me I try to do a bit of admin trying to a bit a couple of hours of admin before I or Diego head off to get the kids so what like this time's like what like times that like three o 'clock three yeah yeah two thirty three o 'clock um and then so depending on whoever's collecting we'll take them home fed bathed bed or come back here or there's a babysitter at home which allows us to to both come back or one of us will stay home depending on what's happening at the restaurant or if it's not too busy, et cetera.

1:12:00So I'd say on an average, I'd be here two, three nights a week.

1:12:08Emily Roux:Right. And the other person is there. There's always one of us here. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. It's great. You're in a great position to do that. Exactly. But that demands high levels of logistics and organization and saying, right. which, you know, do we have a babysitter here? My parents were also super helpful when it comes to looking after the boys. So they're normally with their grandparents as well, at least once a week. So it works really well for us. Like we've never known anything other, to be honest, nor them, nor us. So it works really well. Like we've got it set up in a way that everyone's happy.

1:12:54the restaurant seems to be doing okay yeah yeah basically it's that it's that juggling act which is it is hard it is the what so growing up in that family of just as you say your old man was away like well i was at work a lot what and this kind of just almost like pressure with all this this was it was it a high pressure understanding high pressure from such an early age like what was it was that what it was like or was it like something else or did you not even

1:13:19Emily Roux:know because you were so like no i don't i don't think my father brought home that kind of pressure at all interesting i don't think i felt like he was an extremely high pressure environment so that didn't i didn't transpire from him which which i don't think would either to my boys because you sort of leave that at the restaurant and once you're out of the restaurant then that's it Peppa Pig time sort of thing whoever Pokemon at the moment

1:13:53I think

1:13:54Emily Roux:no I don't think so I mean obviously you have an understanding that he's always worked extremely hard I used to love spending Saturdays there when I was sort of 7, 8, 9 yeah what was that like I loved it just to paint that picture so I'm an only child right always dreamed of having a brother and sister got in that kitchen i had 10 15 brothers and sisters i loved it yeah it was like a playground

1:14:26Emily Roux:i could do anything there you know peeling your tomatoes chopping your vegetables whatever put me in a corner and i would just look at everything that was going on around me and just wow, in awe of the synergy of everything, of the ambience, of the camaraderie, but even the pressure as well. I thought it was beautiful to watch. It was amazing. Yeah, there's a quiet love, which is like pressure is a privilege. Yes. Which I actually think it is, because if you're under pressure, it means you're doing something meaningful. Yes. But I think the opposite of pressure is boredom, which is kind of like, I think, it's just inertia.

1:15:05Emily Roux:Yeah, I mean, for me, seeing that, I was like, I want in. Really? I want in on that and I want to be part of that family and I want to be all of their brothers and sisters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, yeah. And how do you deal with the pressure here? Like, as in, not in terms of like releasing the pressure, as in the privilege thing. How do you use it as fodder to galvanise you? Do you know what I mean? I think it always does. As you said, I think pressure is so good for you. That's when you learn so much when you're under pressure and there's that little stretch and you're in an uncomfortable zone.

1:15:49Emily Roux:But that's when incredible things happen, when you're uncomfortable, right? If you're comfortable, it tends to sort of plateau normally. and you... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird. It's the inertia. You live your life. Whereas when you're in a tricky situation and you're uncomfortable, I think that's when the best things happen because you need to think and you need to have those conversations. And it's also why I love the fact that there's two of us in this business and that we've opened it together because a lot of people say, oh my God, you're working with your husband, you live with him, like how the hell do you deal with each other?

1:16:21Emily Roux:And there are days like that, But also conversation. You can ask someone, well, what do you think? Crockery, what do you think? Should we change it? Should we not change it? How much should we spend? And he'll have his opinion. I'll have mine. And I love learning about other people's opinions because it can make mine better, my idea better or worse. But I think having conversations with people about stuff that you really care about is necessary. and in business when you're solo well you can ask people well if they're not in it 100 percent they've got a bit of a different opinion right and a different mindset to it whereas we're 100 percent into this and still got a hefty loan to pay back so you know we have real hard conversations sometimes which are totally necessary and beautiful to have i think well how hard conversations beautiful well because you you learn you learn from somebody else's perspective um it's it's i think we we probably never agree on stuff on the first go i mean we do but yeah but like they will always there'll be always some kind of different of like oh i would have done this differently or i wouldn't have chosen that or what do you think about, you know, this or, you know, even if it's for talking about somebody that we'd want to give a raise to and I'll think, oh, well, I think we should do it this month and have a conversation.

1:17:52Emily Roux:He'll be like, oh, actually, you know, I would have thought we should wait until this time and have a conversation when this happens and when we're doing this. Okay, that makes sense. Like, you know, you need to see somebody else's perspective to agree to something and say yes. Tim Ferriss has got a quote, which is like, you are the sum of the hard conversations you have with yourself and other people yep and i feel like and i'm sometimes fucking hopeless like this like if it's managing people like we have a team like five and six who work on this and i'll just run from the hard conversation because i'm just like i'd just like rather just not pretend it's not happening yeah yeah what's the art of um approaching a really tricky conversation and it could be whether it could be with a chef like more the business side it could be and yeah i i think i'm very honest I think I'm a super honest person I think I'm very fair and I think that anyone that's had a conversation with me will know that I will always look to better them and their future for example we had a wonderful employee that wanted to see something else yes Gave me all the right reasons.

1:19:11Emily Roux:And I absolutely. See something else as in like. As in dive into another restaurant and. Right. Okay. Sorry. Another challenge. Yes. And I said, you know, absolutely. Like you're young. You have to see other things. And we had a really long conversation about it. It was quite emotional. It's someone that. Been with you for a while. Been with us for a while. and that I genuinely care for and wish the best for. And if that's not with me, and in that conversation, we both mutually agree that this is great and it's a positive, and I am more for it, and that's what I wish for that person. But also at the end, I say, you know, if ever it's not what it was turned out to be and you don't feel comfortable and you want to come back, my arms and my business is wide open the doors wide open yeah guess what happened came knocking back yes amazing amazing and then you feel like well one an amazing part of my team was back um and and and i feel i feel like that had to happen you know that had to happen Sometimes you just need to see something else.

1:20:36Emily Roux:You need to understand and grow. But the fact that they came back just makes me incredibly happy and to know that they feel comfortable and happy here and that they still see themselves growing here is wonderful. Yeah. But it's not, do you see what I mean? So it was a difficult conversation to have. But in the end. I think it's just having it as well. Yeah, but in the end, it all, like, I'd like to think that anyone could come and talk to me and we could have a great conversation even if it's if it's if it's hard to tell me we can have a great conversation and and and you know and find the fabulous ending to it find and and you never know what happens in the future as well that's what i always say to everyone i say okay it's a goodbye today but yeah it can get the world you never know you you never know and you mature during a few years and you come back and you know i i i'd like to to hope and feel that this is you know this is this is a home for for yeah for my team as well fascinating yeah i think it's just about i think the honesty thing and then trying to trying to get it to end on a fabulous ending is yeah but i but i think there's what you said which was beautiful is hard conversations are beautiful yeah like if you can think of it like that you learn so much from them in in the chasing is it not I was going to say Chasing Stars Knife Edge Knife Edge sorry you talk about like the blessing and the curse of the rude name and the nepotism like thing that gets shrouded upon you we like to talk about this like yeah and and interesting I'm really good friends with the her name's Phoebe Phoebe her dad did goo puddings you know in the supermarket love goo amazing that's a wild story He basically was just in, he lived in Brussels and went to this patisserie every day.

1:22:31And then was like, I'm eating one of those. And was like, fuck it, I'm just going to create. And then Goo was great, mad. I love Goo. And she's building her own podcast as well. But she's like, the dad doesn't want anything to do with that name. Because she knows that people think. So she wants to get all her own sponsorship, which I really. But how do you think about that? Like, is it, what's the good? What's the bad? What's the ugly about it?

1:22:54Emily Roux:I mean I know I suspect and I'm pretty sure that most people do have a preconceived idea if they know the family name and what my family have done over the years in the UK I'm pretty sure the first thinking is well she's been giving everything on a plate you know She probably worked at Gavarage for a couple of years and, you know, that's it. She was given a restaurant and that's where she is. So that's absolutely not at all what happened. And all the people I work with on the daily or who worked in France with know that. I mean, I think I'm incredibly hardworking. I'm incredibly passionate. And I have put in more hours, I think, than anyone would have.

1:23:57I also think people are probably blissfully unaware that I did my catering college in France to get away and to be totally anonymous. because in France, Rue is like the most common name

1:24:12Emily Roux:that you can find, surname that you can find. Like Smith. Yes, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Loads, loads of Rues.

1:24:22Emily Roux:So, and also my family are not as known in France, full stop. Yes. So I went off to do my catering college and then did those two internships, part of that. And no one knew where I came from, where I grew up, anything. So I was treated like everybody else who went through those kitchen stores, which is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to build what I felt at the time was the arms and build the knowledge to be capable of going back to the UK. and feel comfortable and say, I'm a chef. Because at the time, I just knew and already felt that that wasn't the case. So I was 19 when I started Catering College.

1:25:16Yep. Got to hold that up a bit.

1:25:19Emily Roux:So until I was like 21, when I was at Catering College and did those two internships, I was... Yep. Joe Block, which was fantastic. So I just did everything like everyone else. And then again, I worked for five years in France and lived my life totally. If you still have the exact same family, but if you had the option to change your name from early, so you remove that preconception, would you? No, because I'm super proud. I'm super proud of my family and what they've done for young chefs. I mean, we talk about the Rue Scholarship, which is an incredible, incredible competition for young, emergent professional chefs.

1:26:08Emily Roux:My family have done. Because you're involved in that, right? Yes. So what's your role? So I'm also. When did that start? That was in. Years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's celebrated 40 years, I think three years ago. So it must be in its like 43rd year. And your granddad set that up. Yeah. And his brother. Yeah. So Michel Sr. and Albert Rue. And so what's the... So the whole thing was to get young British chefs or UK chefs on stage and essentially get them to the whole world, put their names out there and make it a better place for these young professional chefs. to shine and that's exactly what it did and you can i mean you can tell with sat baines exactly sat baines that one moment changes whole career yeah yeah but i think it did for many of those winners or even just participants like it's it's it's a really it's a competition that is really solid and and sort of shows people what you're made of why is it such a hard competition well the caliber of the entries that we get so in the regional finals for example this year we've got some seriously good restaurant names and good.

1:27:31Who's in there?

1:27:32Emily Roux:So we've got two chefs from Hélène d 'Arros. We've got one chef from Trinity. We've got two from Coweth Park. There's one from the Ritz. There's others. There's loads of great, great restaurants who are going to be battling out. But it's a hardcore competition. Yeah, because I remember Sat was saying to me, he was like, he just, I think it was sort of like, fuck it, I'm going to win this. It was really, he had a really good, it was a really delicious story about it. But the, and then so, and then what do they get when they win that? Like, is it more just that the names becomes ubiquitous or like, not ubiquitous, but like, what's the.

1:28:11Emily Roux:Well, there's definitely that. But then you're sort of part of this family, which is essentially what the Rue family, but also all of the previous winners and judges and everything. and you can get to do a stage essentially wherever you like in the world or do different mini stages wherever um which i think would be incredibly fun to do um just just just knowledge you know you learn wherever you want um yeah i think a passport to extraordinary exactly so So April, who won two years ago, three years ago, she went to Mexico, did some bakery over there. She went to Australia to go with Mr. Neyland.

1:29:00Like she did some crazy stuff.

1:29:04Emily Roux:Very jealous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an incredible competition. It really is. I'm very excited. I'm judging next week at the regional finals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very excited. The, I just want to go, we'll wrap this up shortly, but I'm learning so much. The bit you said, like, when you came up with the name, Caractère. Yeah. The stubbornness. Yes. And that French word of almost, I like the French nuance. It's not just about being like a bubbly character. Yeah. It's the stubbornness, stubborn backbone. What have been like the hardest days, challenges, when you've really, you and yourself and D, you've had to really, you know, feel like everything's coming at you.

1:29:45But what's the, how do you develop Backburn, I suppose?

1:29:51Emily Roux:I mean, the toughest days have definitely been sort of after, well, during after COVID, sort of all of that era was just a complete unknown. And for two very new business owners, we'd been open for a year and a half before COVID hit. and I also gave birth a month afterwards with my oldest. I think we had to shut in March, and I gave birth in May. So I was alone overnight. My husband was not allowed to stay in the hospital. So this is May 2020? Correct. Yeah. All masked up. Like, it was surreal. Like, looking back at it, it was completely surreal. And besides that, we had our business, who we obviously still paying electricity gas um a bit of rent

1:30:46Emily Roux:and we were like what do we do like do do we stop this do we have to stop this is it reasonable going on we've just we've just had our first son our n's gonna meet what do we do with the loan what do i say to the bank like how about can can we stop all of this like how like literally there there were moments where like can can we get out like wrong time kind of thing like we we chose the worst time that that was what we were thinking and i think you just need to be extremely resilient and and find the way but again because there were two of us because we were together it was like right okay i'll have a bad day today day i'll probably have a bad day tomorrow but you bring each other up on those bad days you're like right okay what do you sort of literally say to yourself did you have the goal what was the goal that was like we're going to keep going was it the Michelin star was it the there was definitely the Michelin star there but it was also like I mean as well my parents would always used to say like good things take time and things happen for a reason and I firmly believe in that and and you know getting all of your ducks in a row and getting the right team and the right people at the right time like we would always try and tell each other like the future will be different and brighter let's just wait this out but some days it's difficult when you and my impatience and it goes back and you're like yeah yeah yeah um yeah you gotta you gotta be resilient what are the sort of things that happened to you that like at first felt like a really bad thing but then actually retrospectively it was like that was the way forward well we go back to covid yes we used to do twice the amount of covers before really yeah what as in what two sittings yeah we do two sittings um we were open for lunch every day five days a week we're now only open two days a week for lunch and we only do one sitting so it has changed the restaurant's life and our and our lives dramatically is it like so how do Do you make less money?

1:33:00Emily Roux:We do, but we've also got less staff. Right. It's changed the whole sort of business dynamic. And in hindsight, I think that's been really positive. I don't know if we ever would have got to this model if COVID hadn't struck. I don't know. Yeah, because what are some of the changes you've put in place that have been really like powerful?

1:33:33Emily Roux:I think in general we're just more mindful and that obviously is more personal than it is business but this is personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no... So I think we've just... COVID was a slap in the face of growing up, getting your shit together.

1:34:04Emily Roux:And it just literally just had us focusing on absolutely every aspect of our business. Like this, even the stupidest things of like, okay, our electricity bill, it's X amount. How can we, how can this not be? Can we switch our lights off 30 minutes more every day? Like it's the stupidest nitty gritty things. But when you aligned everything, we're actually making a difference. You're like, oh, my God, I actually saved 50 quid on that bill.

1:34:38Emily Roux:Also more closures. So before we'd be open, sort of Christmas, New Year. You wouldn't stop. After COVID, we were like, this is pointless. How come? what as in like in the one what in between christmas and new year that period yeah all all of that period in the run-up you'd be open though yeah yeah yeah now we're shut we shut as normally around the 21st or 22nd of december we shut and we shut for two weeks yeah and again i think as i said like we just we matured we grew we our personal lives changed but but the people's personal life changed as well after covid like they wanted to see more of their family they wanted to be more home rightly so and so all of those things sort of made that okay let's close for two weeks like no one no one wants to be here at christmas but even if it was financially lovely for the business why do it if we're not happy as a collective like if the team is thinking of their family that's at home or their friends or whoever like why are we here so that went there's that it's almost just again slowing down having more patience yeah but but i think you again you you learn that as you go yeah i mean i'm like i ask all these questions selfishly because i have like i do have i have macro patience micro scatty impatience yeah and i'm trying to get like as long as i'm i sort of know where I'm going but so do I yeah why but I think good things take time yes yeah and as well I'd always say like never take a decision immediately never if somebody asks me something and and it's requiring a yes or no and it's an important question not what color would you like on the wall um I'll never give an immediate answer it's a let me think about it i need time to to sort of put myself in that person's shoes and in that person's shoes what does my husband think what do i think what's the best outcome for me and you like this slowing down yeah i i yeah whereas as as a young individual i don't know yeah yeah or no when you when you call call your old man like what's some of the best advice he's given you like just about it could Could be life, could be anything.

1:37:11Emily Roux:Well, definitely patience. Definitely. Interesting. Especially knowing me as a young and super passionate person. You just want to bulldoze through life. Yeah, like anyone, I think. But he's, again, he's somebody who's extremely honest. We'll have very thoughtful conversations.

1:37:41Emily Roux:he was a pool of knowledge during COVID I mean his restaurant was 53 years of age when it shut down so he had way more experience and knowledge than me so he's always been like the most helpful kind obviously father figure but also businessman and yeah what's he talking about the business side of things So I asked him what Albert taught him. So I would love that. I think you've got a nice way to wrap it up.

1:38:16Emily Roux:I think he, I think I probably undervalue myself sometimes. I'm the same. And he would sort of be like, look, Emily, you've been in the industry for X many years now. Like you're established, you're this, you're that. Like, you know, stand up tall and be the confident person that you can be. And I think I am. Like today, I'd say I am a confident person. But again, that self-confidence has taken that many years to get to. Why do you think you had a lack of confidence? Well, I think that's all to do, again, back with the name and nepotism and what people would think of me. and what people will probably still think of me in the long run, which is why I think the self-confidence now is so important to say, well, it doesn't really matter what people think.

1:39:08Emily Roux:I know my worth and my value and I know. Yeah, there's Alex Hormozzi's got a quote, which is like, it's about stacking up irrefutable proof of who you are, who you say you are. Yes, but do other people need to have that proof? Yeah. Well, also it's like. You know that. Yeah, yeah, it's for you. You've done that. Jimmy Carr says it's, what does he say? What other people think of you is none of your business. Exactly. But I think it's once, because I had the same with this, right? It's like now we're like 250 episodes in. It's like, yeah, mate, you've done 250. Like, chill. But at the beginning, I was like, oh, I'm fucking awful at this.

1:39:46Do you know what I mean? And it's just that you've got to just.

1:39:48Emily Roux:But you also need that confidence to be better in what you do every day and to not be fearful and not stress on every single thing. I think as well when we opened up, I would say, I mean, I always take everything to heart. As I said, this is my baby. I will always take everything to heart. But there's ways of managing that now where it's like, okay, I've taken it to heart and it's annoyed me and I've taken it upon myself. But then when I'm out of here and we move on, we shut that door and that page. How do you take things less personal? Again, I'm like, I will take things very personally. I think sometimes you see into them too quickly.

1:40:28Emily Roux:Like sometimes if I get an email of somebody who is unhappy for X, Y reason,

1:40:38Emily Roux:first of all, I do an investigation. So like I want to understand the ins and outs of everything. Any examples of this specifically? I can't remember what it was for, but there was a long email. she was unhappy about the evening i can't remember the actual pinpoint of it clearly it wasn't that but again i took it to heart so i investigate i ask everybody the questions this was over the weekend because email was sent on a sunday night i was like all right okay call up my general manager what what happened what did you understand did i misread this right okay and i'm thinking about it and i'm thinking about it and then jay goes like right this is consuming you like it's try and stop and so I replied the next day I reply in the morning and long email and and the lady still seems to be frustrated and sort of right I've got to call her I've got got to call her so this is all still with my weekend and my time where I'm supposed to be enjoying with my kids and whatnot um and in the end clearly it was a very simple misunderstanding that over a phone call was hashed in the space of two minutes and everyone was happy.

1:41:52Emily Roux:And I'm thinking, well, that just bugged my whole weekend for nothing. Like sometimes I see too deeply, well, we all see too deeply into things. I think especially women, we're very good at like overthinking, overanalyzing and over. Oh, my God. and clearly I'd read this email probably not in the right tone made all a huff in my head about it when I also think creative people are like I always say like overthinking used positively is creativity but overthinking used negatively is anxiety kind of and it's but you know they're two sides of the same coin like a lot of creative people are kind of anxious and take things very personally you need to for your creative work 100 % But it's just like when it can turn into, it's your best friend and your worst enemy at the same time.

1:42:43Emily Roux:It is, but you see, I think when over the years, see, I maybe wouldn't have given that person a call seven years ago because I would have been a bit shy and a bit like, oh, I don't know what I'm going to say. What did you say? Like you just bell her up and then? Yeah, we went through the email and her disappointment and my understanding of it. And she was like, oh, no, no, it's not, you know, it's not, I'm not, basically, she wasn't as, I thought she was basically. Tonality of emails is so, you take all the nuance out of, what do you think, is the phone, telephone, literally, is that an underused weapon in restaurants?

1:43:21Emily Roux:I think so. Because all this online bollocks. I think sometimes if you just pick up the phone and tell someone your situation, I think we'd be pretty damn understanding. But as a morph, like, as you using it as a tool to solve problems. As well. As well. As I said with my landlord, that phone conversation is important. And we still, you know, there's no bad blood, by the way, after the rent review. There's still another one happening in the next couple of years. Dialogue is super important. And we probably only do emails and texts and whatnot, but actually phoning up someone can be super helpful.

1:43:59There's so many levels of dialogue and, as you say, textures stuff you just can't get on the yeah written thing absolutely it's uh absolutely listening i mean let's wrap that up it's been an absolute joy um i've absolutely loved that i think we swam in so many different directions um but no it was it's just this place is insane so thank you so much thank you that was sick thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you like that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe, tell all your friends families, foes, next door but one cat, dog, whatever, please tell everyone about this podcast, it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn, search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands, thank you so much