Will Bowlby, founder Kricket: Revealing The Hidden Marketing Genius of Kricket Modern Indian Restaurants and London’s Favourite Cocktail Bar SOMA, Soho

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2:01morning wonderful people this one with world bulby from cricket is an absolute 30 banger so good cricket is hands down one of my favorite restaurants uh i'm there i go there a lot it's one of the restaurants i think you know a good restaurant is the one that you go to the most i'm there all the fucking time the food is just out of this world extraordinary taste bud teleporting it is bombay bouncing just a flavor bomb to your face it's so delicious um and they've also well will's also created pretty much everyone's favorite cocktail bar soma in soho they've just opened one in canary wharf and they've just opened a cricket in canary wharf too i really wanted to get into how he's reinvented indian food and the name cricket is just so good obviously the link is cricket india and the uk and britain play cricket but the k i think the k in the brand name is so iconic um and i just love it we get really deep into this we talk about how he got stalked uh when he was living on his own in mumbai how he took the leap and just went and started cooking over there how they hustled and i think there's so much in this how do they actually get pump punters in the door to uh cricket in brixton we talk about some of his mishaps as a leader and how the founders moved to affect the team's mood this is so nuanced and so interesting how they constantly reinvent how when Will lacks curiosity and this is one not curiosity, confidence he goes on these curiosity kind of breaks and I think our confidence as human beings can go up and down and his curiosity reset is something I've been applying and it really helped me so I think it's going to really help you and yeah, I just I absolutely loved this one he's such a great storyteller as well I'd be so grateful if you could please share the podcast please leave a five-star review on Spotify, Apple, it all helps.

3:51And yeah, anyway, enjoy this episode with the legend that is Will Bowlby.

4:00What I want to start with is I read somewhere where you're talking about when you went to Mumbai, as I think you were like in your early 20s. Yeah. And you said it was a culture shock and I found myself pulled in lots of different directions. sometimes it was great and sometimes it really wasn't um where's this from i can't i don't know i don't know i just read it somewhere we'll start with this it's true but and then we'll uh and then we'll weave into things um and you said towards the end there's too much interference in the menus and i got a parasite what i'd like to start with like where this story is going to start is with the parasite right so work back work back so so what does you're in but you're in you're in Mumbai you've got a parasite what are the thoughts in your head at that specific moment in time when it went on for a while I mean look it's it's no um those that have been to uh India it's not totally uncommon to come back with you know a minor illness or like a something a bit more challenging I I got something called Jardia which is a waterborne parasite which lots of people get when they go there you know you just got to be got to be a bit careful and it just meant that um it meant that I kind of ended up sitting in a very small air-conditioned room in the restaurant not even in the kitchen because I couldn't eat I couldn't absorb anything I was exhausted so I wasn't hungry but I force-fed myself and everything I force-fed myself the little parasite just went that's mine you know oh my god yeah latched on to so I was losing weight and I didn't have any any energy and um I didn't know what it was and nor did the doctors so you know it kind of got to the stage where I had nothing left to give I was already mentally pretty exhausted and this was this was just like the final little um nail in the coffin which was my my physical health so yeah again in the end it wasn't serious I got rid of it when I came back to England it was fine but But at the time, I just felt like I couldn't give anything more.

6:10And because I didn't understand what it was, nor did my employers. So, you know, what could they do for me? They couldn't really do anything for me. And I just found myself trying to kind of contain my energy in a very small little air-conditioned room. Not even being with the chefs that I was supposed to be working with. And that's not where I wanted to be and that's not where my employers wanted to be. yeah and so when you get back to the UK how do they how does that suddenly fix it they have just have that different I won't go into very a lot of detail yeah yeah you know it was them you go to the tropical disease clinic and the parasite is microscopic yeah once they find it which it took them a few times to find it you take a pill it's gone I thought it was like some sort of like no no no x-ray it's a pretty common thing it's you know lots of people have had it it's not the end of the world but at the time it felt like I I didn't know what to didn't really know what to do like other than just try and get rid of it and as you said you said it's almost like you said you got pulled in good directions and bad directions when you're in Mumbai and you said that was kind of like the the nail in the coffin I think you said and it's like right it's time to go back yeah so let's go let's revert back and what were some of the really good places you got you got pulled to in when you're out there and um i mean arriving there you know i mean people people tell you before because it's first time i've ever gone to india right so i moved there when i was 24 to live in a in a brand new country by myself doing a job that was you know um perhaps i was premature and in taking it or i mean i don't look back at it like that but i was relatively and experience um and uh so people tell you when you go to india beware of the culture shock so i it wasn't a big issue for me really because i was so like open and excited about what was going to happen i was like a little bit tired of london and i was up for a new challenge so when i arrived in this new place i loved it i thought this is great and it's crazy and chaotic and very different to what I knew but um but I was pretty happy you know I was given a little apartment in in South Bombay that was not too far from the restaurant the restaurant hadn't been built despite what I've been told before I got there so it was still rubble but then my team was there and their chef white's ready to go and they were very welcoming and and made me feel very much at home and I was involved in you know that kind of creative process of picking out the crockery and choosing menus and design elements of building a restaurant which again is very exciting and obviously being put in this new city this vibrant bustling city with with my employers who are pretty kind of well known in the Mumbai restaurant nightlife scene so I would say they took me under their wing they made me feel very welcome and at the beginning I remember really enjoying it.

9:16I documented the whole thing in a diary and you could see from my writing, it starts with that feeling of excitement and possibly naivety to the whole experience and then you see my mood gradually declining. We'll get onto that because I think it's interesting. but the um what pulled you specifically to that to there and that restaurant and why out of any cuisine you could like what pulled you before you got there like to that type of Indian cooking and it wasn't Indian so it was it was it was European cooking oh yeah oh sorry okay it was it was European food in Mumbai so I'd done my stint in London or at least the beginning of it I'd learned really the basics in French cooking.

10:07So I didn't realise that, yeah. Yeah, no, and they approached me through a consultant and they wanted me to go over there to run their new European kitchen, which was kind of like an outpost of their very established Indian kitchen that was below the restaurant that I was working in. Okay, with you. They were associated with, it was owners of Khyber who were the oldest, I think, one of the oldest Indian restaurants in Bombay. But I was to run their European restaurant upstairs. So, yeah, that was it. And my reaction was, that's not something I would have even thought about doing. Running a restaurant, let alone going to India to run a restaurant.

10:53But, you know, I felt that, you know, if it didn't go well, you just fly home. Come back, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. and then you said so there's some really you know the cultural shock and the writings in the diary to begin with really kind of full of um full of kind of jubilant exciting experiences yeah could you kind of add some texture to that that period of time is there like a specific kind of story or moment as you got there maybe it was like going into the kitchen for the first time or that really showed the you're getting pulled into good places and then we can explore the the negative and how you got back to London.

11:33Yeah. I mean, it's, um, like I said, everyone was very welcoming. Um, and it felt very exciting. You know, I was in amongst this kind of new group of people, um, who, whose attitude was like, you know, whatever you want, we can, we can make it happen kind of thing, whether that's going to a restaurant and going out with their friends or, you know picking stuff for the restaurant whatever you want you can have kind of that that's what I felt it was like which is which for a young you know young guy was was was pretty exciting and you know if you've been to Mumbai or any city in India really it's like it's relentlessly busy and bustling and exciting and it's definitely a 24-hour city there is something going on at every single hour of the day and at night.

12:25So, you know, you, you become, um, you, you, you get very drawn in by that whole experience. And, you know, this, for the first time in my life, I was, I was like about to, you know, run this restaurant and, um, you know, as, as a result, my sleep suffered. So mainly because of good things, right. I was trying to think of menus and, you know, so that's, that's not necessarily a negative thing, but it did, I did find myself walking around the city at 6 a.m. because I couldn't sleep. And even that, you know, you see some good things, you see some bad things. But look, it's an incredibly fascinating city that has boundless potential.

13:07And at the beginning, that's how it felt. And it felt very exciting and everyone was very nice. And it was also a bit surprising because I had, you know, suddenly all these, I had a team of about 20 chefs who, that was a new thing for me and you were incredibly young at this point yeah yeah yeah were you early 20s? I was 24 yeah which is like considerably younger than what you'd be doing in London at that age and probably not experienced enough to take on a job like that to be honest but they didn't know that yeah yeah yeah smile and wave as you walk through the door yeah and so that was a bit odd having all these chefs like I guess look up to me because you know I was in charge of them um but they were amazing as well so I loved my team they were like you know all they wanted to do was do good by me and and the restaurant and and they worked so hard and they were a big big bonus um in making me feel incredibly welcome and helping me settle and and really helping me get that restaurant off the ground.

14:13So, yeah, I mean, it was just a wonderful set of people who, like I said, made me feel very welcome. And it was very exciting. How did you, because I interviewed Jack Stein the other week, and he was saying this thing about how one chef had said to him, he was starting out and he said, instead of doing like a small service, he goes, right, just go right into the deep end. And that's how you'll find out whether you can do it or not. And he's like, look, I did it and I could do it. you're 24 as you said you're almost slightly um in london kind of under inexperienced but in a good thing you had kind of that naivety yeah how did you go in and kind of consider you didn't have that experience getting that authority in the kitchen over here how did you go in and without anyone kind of guiding you say right this is how we're going to do things so i think in life one of my favorite quotes like bite off more than you can chew than chew like hell it's like yeah the um it's probably a bit of that yeah the founder of minor figures taught me that and i used it a lot i'm like fuck it just go for it yeah how did you yeah do that do you know what i mean well i mean that was sort of my attitude with the whole experience you know i do believe more so now than ever that you put yourself out of your comfort zone and you will learn something and the reality is cricket wouldn't necessarily exist in the form that it does had i not gone to india I would have never turned to Indian food.

15:36So I think putting yourself out of your comfort zone is very important. The guys in my team in the kitchen, they gave me confidence because they thought I knew everything, which I didn't. But, you know, they did what I told them to do. And I guess part of it was like winging it. And part of it was like the hopeful belief that, okay, I am here. They did trial me to get here. So maybe I can do it. although I never think I am good enough right and that's that's that's true to this day I whenever I see people eat my food I always my first thought is they hate it they really don't so like you know that you know when people react they're like hmm you know that could be good that could be bad I always think it's bad until I hear that it's good so I guess you know you have to believe in yourself I had to believe in myself and I I think I did but there was definitely um a feeling of you know i i really need to to try and make this work because i'm not like a hundred percent sure i can i can do this but then surely that's the that's the case with most things so yeah i think someone said to me um it's like every founder has this equal balance of messiah versus imposter complex oh yeah i can do whatever i can do it versus the imposter and i'm the same with this is like oh what am i doing but if you if you have too much messiah then you think you're you kind of um indestructible um but too much imposter you you can't you can't do anything i would i would definitely i definitely have the imposter thing um not so much the messiah thing i don't think um but yeah i'm sure it's a balance isn't it um and and sometimes you need to reset yourself so when you when you're you know when you're especially when you're trying to create things you know there are times where you get blocks and you have to reset yourself you have to take a step back and that's when you you lose confidence in yourself and that's where perhaps the imposter syndrome then kicks in and you have to kind of reset that happens quite a lot so when did that when when was the last time that kind of happened oh very recently in the last few weeks really yeah yeah and and most of it nowadays is is you know coming up with new menus you know i I came back from India in January, after a trip in January, and had a head full of ideas and changed virtually the entire menu and felt very good about everything.

17:58And after a few weeks, you're like, okay, I need to change things up a little bit again, keep it moving. And then the ideas stop. And all it takes is just a very quick, clean break whereby you might read a book or you might chance upon something, a new idea or whatever it may be. And then suddenly you're on a bit of a roll and now I feel back where I'm comfortable. But it'll happen again. That's true. So I listen back to all of these podcasts and sometimes I listen back to it as I'm listening to notes and stuff like that. And sometimes I'm just like, that is fucking awful. I'm just telling myself the most nefarious things.

18:35Just don't even bother. But then sometimes I'm like, oh, it's okay. So that's actually all right, mate. But then in terms of, I suppose, I'm asking this selfishly. so when you have these big kind of gushings of imposter syndrome all those feelings of like this isn't going anywhere it's not working what are some of the ways to to like reset will like how do you do that you said you read a book like when how do you get the ideas back try and try and regain inspiration from somewhere and ideas i mean that's really where it comes from ultimately you know my role has developed as time has gone on within cricket or my life or whatever it may be but trying to remember what what got me here in the first place which is cooking yeah and um and also just just trying trying to trying to keep moving forward with that you know one of the main reasons why um i wanted to do something with indian food was because uh it has the endless i think the endless possibility of evolution within its within you know the formation of what you're making it's forever evolving i think it has an incredibly rich culture and history and that allows you to kind of i hope to take it further and so the possibilities are endless it's just about staying focused and trying to make sure that ultimately what you're serving and what you're putting on on the menu in front of customers is is the right thing um so just just resetting is is is really trying to like be inspired yeah i like that it's almost like when the curiosity can almost get you out of that slump yeah it's very easy to do but it's also very easy not to do yeah has there ever been a period when you've kind of stayed in that too long yeah i'm sure that has yeah yeah the so you talked we talked about kind of the cultural shock right at the beginning what was it that shocked you when you got there that you kind of didn't you know you leave heathrail or wherever and you're on the plane and what was it that really shocked you in terms of oh i just wasn't expecting this do you know what i mean because i think that can happen in so many places you go to it's it's it's as you're about to land into mumbai right you you you start um flying over a sea of blue and that's tarpaulin over the slums and that's like okay this is this is something i've never seen before because the airport is virtually surrounded by they've smartened it up a little bit now but that's the first thing you notice when you fly into mumbai um and then when you come out of the airport in a car, it's also what you see.

21:21And so that's new, and that's immediately difficult to see. And Mumbai is very much a city of major disparity between wealth. You know, there is the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, and you can kind of see them all everywhere you look. is it segregated like in terms of like South Africa or is it more like it's all mixed muddled in below every skyscraper there's a slum probably not every single one but yeah that's wild you can see the extremes everywhere I think and that's quite difficult because you're kind of hoping it meets in the middle somewhere and people aren't so rich and people aren't so poor but that's the reality of of of that city um then and now i think um so that that was that was the first impression and that was that was like okay um you wasn't necessarily expecting that is there anything else that like shocked you um yeah anything else that like shocked you from when you're talking the sheer density of people the the traffic those are the first things that that took me back you know I was like it took me a long time to get a very short distance to my apartment um but yeah it was it was like I said despite all of that you know because they people say oh it's a shock you go in with that knowing it will be and it is very exciting and for the for those first few months it was it was great yeah and then with the dot you said like in your diary had all these like really positive emotions what were the how did it begin to i think right at the beginning you said you got pulled into some bad place as well how did your diary kind of change and then what was the kind of catalyst to say like right i need to get get back to london yeah it was it was it was um it was two things really it was it was frustration um in trying to manage myself with this new environment that I was in so sometimes in India not everything is completely simple and straightforward so if you say something needs to be done it's not always done it's not always the case but well I mean everywhere kind of yeah yeah like a cultural yeah yeah yeah it's just it's you know you ask someone um a question and and it's sometimes you get a yes no maybe in response you know and that's um uh that can be easily very frustrating you know i was told the restaurant would be ready when i was before i got there so i rushed out there and it wasn't it was a rubble mud lots of mud so you know not everything is as it seems um it's chaotic and it's um it's challenging it's never like for me Mumbai was never just relaxed and sort of medium if that makes sense it was it was either like intensely chaotic um in fact that was really all it was and my kind of form of escape was to shut myself in my in my four walls in my apartment and just breathe because the noise is constant really that the car horns are constant the the moment you're out of your door you're hit with a wall of heat and and lots of people um so that's that's that's really challenging and then you know on top of that i had an unfortunate experience whereby i was i sort of had a stalker um who at first robbed me and then threatened me with you know my life and stuff what as in was it it was in an ATM next to my house next to my flat and he was no it's not like a Colombia or Brazil no I was very unlucky and anyone who's listening to this don't let it put you off going there because I was very unlucky I just had a guy who probably saw this like young white kid on his own and thought let's see what i can get out of him and he got a bit of money out of me and he was also told a few fibs to the security guards who let them up to my apartment so look it was that's a very long story but it uh it went on for days and it and it um it eventually got him arrested um but but the result of it was me feeling incredibly insecure in this new environment.

26:06This guy now knows where I live. And, you know, I'd been threatened on several occasions. And at the time when it happened, I sort of ended up in the middle of the streets shouting for help from whoever. And things just seemed to conspire against me at that stage. And no one seemed to really help until eventually I, you know, got to work and they helped me find him and he was a well-known criminal and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I mean, I guess that made me feel very unhappy, very like unsafe. I was always looking over my shoulder. I knew, I kind of knew where he hung out because even though he was arrested, he was obviously let go.

26:54I knew where he was, he knew where I was and that that made me feel pretty unhappy where I lived and I ended up living there for another year even with this learning this boat's about yeah yeah and uh like just how what made you stay like that shows yeah um I didn't get a massive I didn't get a huge amount of understanding um and I was contracted into this this apartment yeah yeah yeah eventually after a year I managed to go and live with some friends in another part of town and then things improved again but yeah it was a combination that really took a toll that that was like the biggest had the biggest impact on my on my happiness and um on my security and I felt like I couldn't turn to anyone even though probably I could have done um and uh that was kind of scary and like I said i was very unlucky but it did happen and um so that coupled with the frustrations of of general life there it was uh yeah it wore me out and that's when things started to become a little bit difficult but then i didn't want to give up so i you know i was like you gotta yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah mate what a wild beautiful story like not horrible like harrowing story but like the way that's gone kind of full circle and i suppose then like you you're working in this european restaurant out there i suppose you're going to different places and trying all the different indian cuisine like what at what point does cricket begin to ideate in you in your head yeah is that when you're out there is it when you're back no it's when i see that's that's the exciting bit you know despite this like that was a that was a year of my relatively new life in a new place that was fairly majorly hampered.

28:46But what was exciting, and as part of that, I was cooking European food for a new audience. And their interpretation of Indian food was, sorry, European food was somewhat different to mine. I had an idea of doing like a small French seasonal menu. And that was widened and widened and elongated to the point where I had a pretty big menu of stuff that I didn't necessarily want to cook. So I became fairly disinterested in what I was doing myself. But on the positive side of things, I was becoming really interested in Indian food. And again, if you've been there, you know that everywhere you look, there is something different to try on every street corner.

29:29And it's the smells and the colors is incredibly exciting. and and at that point i can't remember exactly what it was i remember roughly but there was a point where i was like there is so much more to indian food than i know and perhaps what others know as well in in england so i i at that point i was i wanted to try and showcase more uh more of indian food to the uk audience and that was that was where the idea behind didn't have a name yet a concept which later became cricket started and then what is the difference in the because we um were you going around the different cities and like areas yeah and trying the different like how did you i suppose get will's kind of um literal appetite to go and try everything i always find it interesting how you like try everything and then you bring things together and then stamp put your mark on it like were you going what's the difference between the different types of food in the different parts of India.

30:31I didn't manage to travel a huge amount when I lived there. I was, I was there to work. Yeah. Um, and I was working chef hours. So really it was, I was mostly in Mumbai. Um, but there's plenty of food to discover in Mumbai. You know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a real melting pot of, of, um, you know, it's the cosmopolitan hub of, of india so you've got a lot of people traveling there to to to to work and to to um so that results in very interesting food as well so you can get a lot of a lot of regional indian food in mumbai uh more so than ever now i think so um the occasional trip to go and stuff like that was great and delhi but um there was enough to get me going really there in mumbai to to really understand that oh there is there's there's so much to learn here and I guess what I wanted to do is combine my knowledge which was um classical French cookery um with an understanding some some understanding of ingredients and seasonality and that kind of stuff um with uh with with Indian food and and and so that that's kind of where it started and i started writing recipes and and not recipes actually menus um should have started with recipes but i actually didn't have a i didn't have enough knowledge on indian food so there was i i found myself trying to trying to cook at every opportunity something out of my kitchen and i've i found i found uh i found some kitchens to work in and to experiment and explore.

32:13But really, again, with Indian food, you have to know the basics. It's certainly not a cuisine you can just wing. What are some of the basics of, because I think I read somewhere, like there's people get things wrong about spice, like it's about layering. I read that in one of the articles. There's a lot, yeah. What are some of those just out of curiosity, like basics? I mean, the very basics, I would say, would be in, okay, the treatment of your spices whether they're whole or they're powdered and and the temperature in which you cook them um will result in in in various results um and at what stage you put them into your cooking also defines the result cooking of your onions is very important and that that varies massively throughout the different curries that you're cooking why is the what does the onions do to the like that's sorry i'm just having yeah yeah why does why is that so essential so um you've got to be patient with onions yeah yeah so a lot of water content you need to let that release and um i don't know generally like the darker you caramelize your onions the better it's it's suited towards let's say a heavier meat curry um lighter translucent cooking of onions um will lend itself better generally to fish curries because it's lighter and less impactful um but then And quite often you'll fry onions, you'll reserve them and you'll apply them to the dish later on in the form of a paste.

33:41Or, you know, you can imagine a paste of fried onions is very sweet and intense. So I think onions are very important to Indian cookery and each curry lends itself to a different kind of way in which you approach them, I think. So onions and spices, spices probably more important and very much unique to Indian food in some respects. But yeah, those two things. And then when you said you can keep like, you thought it was like can endlessly keep evolving. I think we said that a bit earlier. Yeah. Like how have you, how have you, is it nine years? When's it? 2015, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's like, yeah, that's wild.

34:27Yeah, nearly 10 years. Yeah, that's mad. Like, how has cricket evolved, like, over those? Yeah. How have you constantly pushed the envelope? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, in terms of the food, in terms of the food, I mean, we have, like I said, kind of touched on earlier, there are some dishes that have been on since day one, and they're signatures, and they'll probably stay on. But the rest of the menu is something I mean, we're constantly working on evolving and that's through learning and, you know, trying new things. Simple as that, really. I mean, there are certain dishes that I've had on in the past that I look back and I think, what the hell was that?

35:13Such as? Oh, I mean, there's always, there's like one in the beginning in the shipping container that was like this vindaloo bavette, which was like just steak with, I discovered that the two main properties of, or three main properties of vindaloo was, or four, vinegar, chili, salt, and garlic. And I applied that to like some sort of chimichurri. It was just like ill-conceived and not properly thought out. That's something you've got to be very careful about, particularly as like a white boy cooking Indian food, right? People will be quick to judge. And quite rightly, I accept that. It's an incredibly precious cuisine that should be nurtured and preserved.

36:04And the last thing I want to do is to disrespect that in any way. So that's what I'm trying to do is develop it and showcase it amongst some new ingredients and a new style and push it forward a little bit. Um, and, um, so you have to put some thought into these dishes and understand where they've come from to understand where you want to want them to go. And you're not always going to get it right. And there'll be dishes in the future that I'm, I won't be happy with. But as long as, as long as you've put enough thought into it, the intention is there, then that's, that's quite important to me.

36:45But in terms of cricket as well, you know, it's not all about the food as a business. it's evolved obviously a hell of a lot in the last 10 years the one thing I want to ask you some sort of like yeah just questions that I've been curious about for ages is with you know it's quite well I've only been someone in Brixton right but it's quite dark why do you think eating Indian food in like a darker your food in a darker setting works the reason I'm asking this I interviewed Margot Henderson last week and we were talking about rochelle canteen and how light it is yeah and she was saying she wants that kind of feeling of she would describe her hospitality as kind of um uh what's the word she say uh like um gentle that was one she said i'd love to kind of explore this with you mate of like what would why do you think it's kind of i like the darkness of it with the train roaring over your head and this the incense and what's why does that work well i think it's partly situational you know i think um um our restaurants are quite different each one you go to the experience is hopefully a cricket experience but yeah um brixton exactly what you said you're you're in an arch under a railway line um light is limited already so um and where you are you need to you need to kind of feel what's what's right in in that in that building and you i think you when you do a restaurant okay you have your concepts and you know what food you want to produce but equally you need to you need to adapt to the the room that you're you're going into and uh i think for brixton it it's it suits it quite well uh i also think that you know a nice softly lit room when you're eating is a is a is a nicer way to eat than than than any kind of harsh light and harsh light is different to bright light bright light is when you have the the fortune of having lots of natural light through your window which is which is a wonderful thing but if you don't have that and imagine you you would have gone in the evening to brixton um yeah you need the help of a candle i still know what was last week it was but it was still light but it's it's got there's a lot for me it was the it's the roar over the head of the train yeah it adds like a huge we we like we like quite unassuming spaces sometimes i think I think that's quite an unassuming space, the Brixton site, it's right in the middle it's where the village meets the market but yeah it's a nice atmosphere I think and I think the train kind of adds to that yeah so what I liked what you said there Will is you have different same cricket experience, different sites so you go into a space we need to make this work I'm trying to kind of understand the way your brain works in this regard so you go in to say maybe you can use like White City as an example like how is that different from Brixton but how do you still get that kind of cricket feeling when a consumer leaves or a customer leaves yeah I mean it's a lot big it's a much bigger space it's got the advantage of a terrace and you know the terrace overlooks the iconic BBC Television Centre so already you've got a quite a different feel about the space it's a lot more generous and and maybe somewhat elaborate even though it's not really elaborate we're not elaborate we're a casual dining experience really but um but yeah it's it's there's there's certain nuances within the design that make you realize that yes it's still cricket and and within the food hopefully you can see it's still cricket but um it's it's got a it's got a little bit of a different feel just like if you went to soho it's you know more of that kind of counter dining fast bustling um sort of intimate uh fast-paced service which i think is quite quite typical of soho you know you need to understand where you're going you need to know what your what your customer base is um and and you kind of adapt your the way you design things around that and you know now with every new restaurant that we build wherever it may be we we want them all to look different and again you want you want to know you're in a cricket but at the same time um we want every experience to be to be slightly different um and we certainly want the visually aesthetically it to each site to have their their independence amongst the group it's quite important yeah that's so interesting and then with the this is i've just always found as soon as i saw the brand like what the cricket why why the k like that he just instantly was like that to me visually i don't know what it was i was like that's works like what was the taught me behind that process well i mean that was that was my my business partner rick he he came out with the name he's quite good at that he's quite he's despite the fact that i'm supposed to be the creative one he seems to come up with the names yeah um and uh we were thinking you know when when when we decided to do this together we then thought okay we need to think of a name and he came up with cricket and basically we wanted a word that that resonated between the uk and india and cricket was a sport that that we created and they then mastered and um and it kind of felt like it tied the two countries quite nicely together um but equally we didn't want it to look like a sports bar so we removed the c and put a k in there and it was that's that's it really and and but we felt after designing um the typography of the k and the the cricket um once we were happy with that we felt like the k was quite strong yeah the k is so strong um and so that's something that we've kept you know brand's identity and your identity it develops as you go on and you need to update it and um whilst remaining true to why you created it in the first place um but i think the case remained pretty consistent throughout the journey so so take me to the date it's the first day you're at the shipping containers in pop brixton right so you've got come back from uh you come back from India you've spoken to Rick you've gone into business together like what how did you sell him on that or who did what was the oh we we we had a coffee um and we just said let's do it it's 50 50 that was it easy peasy just a little verbal agreement and he he at the time was was um working in the city he was he's he's an accountant he was an accountant sorry um and uh and uh it's something i could never do and um i'm very bad at math which is why yeah so it was you know it was um and i i was trying to learn more about indian food so i went to work with vivek singh in cinnamon and we were just waiting for the right opportunity um and that presented itself when pop brixton came around and they were looking for tenants to go into their shipping containers and you know had it not been for that we would have we were trying to find a site and and as two um two new kids on the you know who really were going into it for the first time and didn't have any funding and didn't have any experience running restaurants or anything like that pop brixton was the perfect platform because we built the place ourselves we put a kitchen down one end and a couple of couple of tables we painted the walls it cost very little it was our money it was our business it was ours to lose and um uh if we had lost it we would have it would have been okay it would have gone and done something else and started again um which you can't is not quite the same as necessarily if you if you spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on on on fitting out a bricks and mortar so that was very good for us and and it worked and how many how many seats was in 20 20 yeah and then what's the feeling like in here once the first day the first service yeah like and how are you getting people in like i think people don't really talk about that and as much like you know we're 10 years down the line now you've got three amazing restaurants.

45:29Three. Yeah, tell me about that early period. Well, I mean, for the first, we had a table of four who were my parents and Rick's parents. Happy days. In at around like 5 or 5.30, which was lovely. And that's a special way to start. And they sat together and they had the menu and they said they liked it. They had to say that. So that was nice. And then I think we did about 50 covers the first night in a 20-seater restaurant. And it was mostly friends. And, you know, I remember it very well. I was in the kitchen with one other. We didn't have a bar, so the bar was in the kitchen. We didn't have a KP either.

46:12So it was like four of us in a tiny, tiny space, Rick on the floor, and just winged it. You know, we didn't even have table numbers. We had nothing. We were just like, right, let's go. and it was a you know i think it in it went well um but your friends are going to tell you that and but i think it i think it did and uh but quickly we knew we we understood that we have to learn very very fast uh about a lot in order to make this work uh it's like a yeah what were the things you had to learn super well that was just like oh god i wish i knew that before we'd just systems like it's all very well like cooking food and putting it on a plate and giving it to the person in front of you that's fine but you need you need you need a pos system to make that happen you need um you need you need a kitchen porter you need like waste management you need um uh to print the menus you need to there's so many things that go into it there's so many different um so you know we were working constantly which is what you have to do um but we're still learning as we go you know every challenge um that presents us so you learn something from and and and that is that is a wonderful thing about what what we do you know it's it's you are always learning but certainly in those early days you're you're learning the basics you've got to learn them fast because the next day you've got to do it all again and the next so So, yeah, it's exciting.

47:50It's almost like that experience of going to Mumbai and going into that kitchen when you're like 24 and just buying off more than you can chew, chewing like hell. Yeah, yeah. Like when you've got to that site in Brixton, you said, fuck it, we'll do the same thing. And I think there's something interesting in that. Yeah. And that kind of like winging it kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. I read, like, so this is, I was doing some research this morning and it was a bit serendipitous. so there's the picture on your website i think i don't know if it's you but there's like an illustration of someone on a motorbike yeah um it is you and it's like the palatial thing in the background yeah um and i'm moving house and there's this book that my um uh which i was told to read it you know i didn't actually read it but i thought it came up i was like okay then maybe i'll ask this and explore it i like to explore some weird things and it's called the book's called zen and the art of motorcycle motorcycle maintenance yeah really interesting book but he talked about um and i looked at this online and he talked about um how you're trying to find zen in quite potentially like chaotic things i'd love to know when being in a kitchen and being in kind of a high octane environment a bit like a motorbike yeah is there any kind of what's the feeling you'll get is there like a form of zen or like not necessarily zen but like presence like what's that feeling like when you're in this crazy kitchen whether it's that under um in mumbai or under some of your mentors or in cricket?

49:16Like, what's that feeling? Depends how it's going. Like, it's completely dependent on how that service is going. When you do a good service and you're busy and everything clicks and there's a rhythm to it, there's no better feeling. It's like, it's wonderful. And, you know, whether it's in the shipping container or any kitchen, any chef would agree, particularly find in Soho, where you've got the customers in front of you, you look down the line and your team are working hard and everything is flowing very nicely and you're focused and you there's there's a there's a rhythm and a flow to what you're doing and it's very exciting uh and i love that and i miss that because i don't do that very much anymore so is it almost like is it almost like a kind of um it's a buzz like a buzz but like it's almost like a band playing like in unison or like a football like is that kind of that's the sort flow it's definitely it's definitely a it's definitely a a team exercise right yeah certainly not all about you it's about everyone in the team um contributing and being on it because one person slips and it's a bit of a domino effect and that's when things aren't so fun so when things don't go so well whether sometimes you'll just have a day where it's not running smoothly for whatever reason you're not on the ball or someone's some of the kitchen's not on the ball and still you have the pressure of all these checks flying through and customers sitting in front of you and it's not going well and then something happens that's that's really unpleasant so like it's two extremes it's it's like it's a wonderful wonderful feeling of like uh the rush of a fantastic service to like the anxiety and and and and just just disorganization of a of a terrible service that's really awful and you've got to keep it together how do you do how because i'm someone who get i worry about things a lot and like if something's going wrong i'm like uh panic a bit like how do you throw enough experience like how do you stay calm as you said and then bring that kind of that rhythm and that rhyme back and yeah do you know what i mean like it's really interesting from a leadership perspective yeah i mean so you um obviously that all of our kitchens are open so there's no shouting or at least there shouldn't be um so if if you need to really hammer home a point to someone then then you you do it quietly and seriously and in a corner which i think sometimes more intimidating to people but um but really you know you've got to keep your cool um and sometimes in order to do that you need to uh duck down by the hot cupboard, you know, and take deep breaths or just duck behind in the KP area and just take a second because, you know, sometimes when the pressure is really building up and the checks are piling up and the best thing you think you might do is just keep going, going, going, going, going.

52:16And you have to rebuild momentum and get back to where you were. But sometimes you need to take a step back in order to get there and just regain some sort of calm um i think that's very important so yeah almost do the opposite of what you naturally might think you should do which is speed up slow down and then regain some sort of consciousness and then go again yes there's a quote i love which i don't adhere to really but it's slow is smooth smooth is fast yeah i think when you slow things down and then how do you rebuild the um is it once you slow down like how are you with with the all the checks that are coming in like where's the how's that make it all go pete on if that makes sense do you mean in terms of not just boshing through them yeah well it's when i say slow down you do it for for a few seconds you know right uh and then you just just just take a deep breath but um it's about it's really about rhythm and it's about them catching up and um sometimes you need to have a little pep talk with the team to get them back into the you know into into into focus and then and then just catching up but you like i said whether you're in a good or a bad service if if you you or someone else slips up then then then you're playing catch up and that's that's very difficult you have to stay on top of things um but it's you know it's very exciting it's very fun and tiring i want to talk um you you i read somewhere that you said we have ego-less kitchens yeah i love that as a as a concept how do you um i suppose the first question is like how do you because a lot of people can hide can wear masks in life like quite literally in terms of um how they they present themselves like how do you create an environment where ego doesn't exist do you know what i mean yeah i think um there are lots of kitchens that perhaps do have egos in them and um you know chefs can be chefs come in all shapes and sizes right but um you know people people are aware of those chefs who are boisterous and shouty and um perhaps do have egos and just really it's not that which necessarily trying to promote kitchens um egoist kitchens we are but at the same time if if a chef comes into the kitchen with an ego they just don't last long you know it's just it's just not the environment that we want we we want to create um a kind of a nice friendly calm nurturing environment you know it's cooking being a professional chef is or any front of house, back of house.

55:04Being in hospitality is a challenging profession. Long hours, it's tiring, etc. You need to try and create an environment where people are happy. Otherwise, the turnover is too relentless. It shows in the food that you're producing. It's not conducive to a happy environment. and I'm sure lots of people try and say the same and I'm sure we haven't always got it right, you know, like probably some ex-employees will be like, well, I didn't like working at cricket, but, you know, it's what we try and do. And so if someone does come in with an ego, they just don't really last that long. What did you, you said there about kind of employees coming and going.

55:55I read, what I loved on your website is I think the guys name's uh will rogers yeah so it's like joined in 2016 so he's been with you for like a long long long time yeah yeah started as um bar manager now group beverage manager what did you get right that's made work the first kind of question that's made him stay with you for so long and then when you talk about some people who've come and gone like what do you think some of the mistakes you've made which is you know where you said you know oh someone would be sitting listening to this saying oh cricket wasn't the best place to work i just think it's interesting dichotomy yeah yeah i mean so we i think 20 of our workforce has been with us for five five or more years that's mad you know whether it's will who's head of beverage or monsaf who's um head of people ali who's head of marketing you know our entire head office and and most of our head chefs and a lot of our chefs and a lot of people have been with us for a long time.

56:57So I think that shows that hopefully they're happy and they're motivated. And I think in keeping those people with you, you need to show them some sort of career progression. They all started as something and where they are now is different to where they started. And I think that's useful with growing a company as well. new opportunities arise for those that have showed loyalty and commitment. And, you know, if they're capable, they will always get the opportunity ahead of someone fresh coming in. So, yeah, I think keeping them motivated, career progression is incredibly important. And to those that have come and gone, to be honest, I think our retention rate is pretty good.

57:51the type of people that you are having coming to work for you has changed over the last 10 years massively, you know, since COVID changed the landscape of your workforce in so many respects. So those that haven't lasted, I mean, I think probably a lot of them, you know, hospitality is a is a, is a, if you fill a gap quite often, you know, you're, you want, you want to achieve something else, but you want a bit of money, so you go and work a few shifts on the floor or whatever. or you go into a kitchen thinking that's what you want to do. And the reality of kitchen life isn't maybe quite what you wanted it to be.

58:37So, you know, lots of people have had lots of different experiences, but I think, you know, I'm very proud of the culture that we've created in the company. And it's something that we're constantly working on and we will keep working on. You can't stay still. and we have an HR department that are doing a fantastic job and are massively responsible for creating that culture. It comes from the top down. And I really hope we look after people very well, I think. And then what would you say are some of the... I think you have to make a mistake. Part of the evolution in terms of this egoless 20 % of your team been there for five years, you get to that point through mistakes.

59:28Because mistakes are great in terms of learning. What would you say are some of the mistakes you've made to get you to this really strong place in terms of really all kind of ironclad culture now?