Alex Honnold- Death-Defying Rock Climber

9:35Alex Honnold:So, I mean, you're only going super far if you feel comfortable. I mean, that's how we speed climb big walls and things like that is that you go really, really far without placing gear, but you have it on you just in case. So if at any point you're like, oh, this feels slippery, you can just put in gear and be like, okay, I'm good.

9:49Graham Bensinger:Okay.

9:50Alex Honnold:You know, so, I mean, you have, like, this major backup.

9:53Graham Bensinger:How often do you climb in the dark?

9:55Alex Honnold:I've done, you know, a fair amount of night climbing.

9:58Graham Bensinger:And why? Why?

9:59Alex Honnold:Well, sometimes you're just climbing for 24 hours straight, you know, it gets dark. Or sometimes you're trying to, you know, strategize with sunshade. Like, because climbing in the sun is like really, really hard on you. You know, you get more dehydrated, you get more tired, like your feet swell up, you just get hot and worked. So sometimes it's better to climb through the night than to climb in the sun.

10:20Graham Bensinger:And is that too, if the routes, they're busy routes, there are going to be fewer people?

10:25Alex Honnold:Sometimes, but that doesn't matter to me as much. like crowds don't really matter because i'm generally climbing a lot faster so you just go through people it's like the highway you just on your left and you just go by aside from the obvious what are the challenges with climbing in the dark um i don't know i mean so actually the hardest thing about night climbing is route finding if you if you haven't climbed the route before and you don't know where you're going then you spend a lot of time being like you know if you only have 10 feet of view and you're just like oh no you know and there's like a thousand foot wall above You're like, do we go left?

10:54Alex Honnold:Do we go right? All the little micro decisions get kind of difficult.

10:58Graham Bensinger:And so how do you figure that out? And you only have a headlamp on?

11:03Alex Honnold:You just do your best. Sometimes you get off route. But nothing. I'm R.J.

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11:58Alex Honnold:Terms and points cap apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash business-gold. MX Business Gold Card, built for business by American Express. Ever severe. Well, like, so this summer I was doing this big ridge link up of, like, 20 mountains in the Wasatch Range outside of Salt Lake, which wound up taking me, like, 23 hours of, like, hiking along this ridge. and in the middle of the night I got sort of like confused and wound up going like the wrong direction on the ridge for It's like a big horseshoe shape and at the end of the horseshoe I like couldn't I lost sight of like all the landmarks around and it's dark and I'm just like in the mountains by myself And I wound up going like east instead of west for like two mountains I tagged like two little summits and was like You know like it's kind of a bummer like finally I was like this feels wrong and I don't know which direction I finally I started using the compass on my phone to be like And I was like, I'm definitely going completely the opposite direction that I should be.

12:49Alex Honnold:And then I just had to go back, you know. It took me, probably wasted like an hour and a half or two hours.

12:54Graham Bensinger:You'll literally hike for 24, or climb for 24 hours straight? Yeah, I mean, I have, yeah. Without taking a, like, without sleeping?

13:02Alex Honnold:This last season in Patagonia, my partner and I did a 53-hour push. So it's like 53 hours of, like, continuous effort.

13:11Graham Bensinger:And how much do you sleep during this?

13:13Alex Honnold:No, like that's like continuous 53 hours of like climbing, hiking, you know, fleeing for our lives. And how, like, how do you get to the point where you can do that? Oh, you just build up to it. I don't know. I mean, I remember the first time I climbed El Capitan a day, it took us 22 hours, and I was crushed. Like so worked, you know, I was 21 or something, and like it was the biggest effort I'd ever done. And it was like I was useless as a climber for the next like five or six days.

13:39Graham Bensinger:and now El Capitan is like the Everest of rock climbing.

13:43Alex Honnold:Yeah, yeah, it's certainly like, that's a fair analogy, yeah. It's the most beautiful world in the world, I think. I read that somewhere. Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. I'm going to use that sometimes. But, so, 53 hours of climbing. So, the thing with our 53-hour push is, like, we did a 24-hour push climbing, and then we wound up, we were supposed to get to the summit of Sertori, which is like a really big mountain, and then rappel back off the east side, which is where our camp was, but instead this epic storm came. We sat for a few hours. We got worked. We wound up having to retreat down the west side, which is like the opposite side of the mountain range.

14:13Alex Honnold:So then when we got down, after like six hours of rappelling in a storm, we had to walk all the way around the mountain range to get back to town. And we're on like the southern ice cap, which is like one of the biggest glaciers in the world, basically. And so then we just, and we had no more food or like we had no supplies. We have no tent because we were just trying to do one continuous push climbing. So then we just had to walk back to town. It's like, if you don't, if you don't walk out, you'll just perish, you know? Right. Because, like, we didn't have food, so it's not as if you can just, like, sleep for a day and feel better, you know?

14:43Alex Honnold:What do you mean you didn't have food? Well, we'd already eaten our food because we'd already done, like, 24 hours of climbing.

14:47Graham Bensinger:Okay. And you thought you would be done?

14:50Alex Honnold:Yeah. So, had we finished the way we were supposed to and had we not gotten stuck in the storm, we would have been done in 24 hours. We would have been a little bit hungry, but we would have wound up right at our camp. We would have cooked dinner and we would have hiked out. It would have been great. Right. But instead, we sat for, like, four more hours. We repelled for, like we got worked and then we had to walk for 20 hours without without food which is pretty grim like hiking on a glacier with like and we were carrying backpacks like full of climbing gears like 20 30 pounds worth like you know crampons boots like ropes all this stuff and like nothing useful at all you know like no tent no stove no shelter no food you're just like we're carrying all this stuff for 20 hours with like nothing it was like very depressing did you think there was a chance that could be it no i mean not really because all you have to do is keep walking and

15:33Graham Bensinger:I mean, 24 hours without anything to eat.

15:36Alex Honnold:Yeah, but a human could probably walk for like six days without food. I mean, you know, you could walk forever. But it's just very, very depressing. Right. And at the very end, the last couple hours, it was raining the whole time, and we were like going into a headwind, and we were pretty cold. We were wearing all of our jackets. And like to hike wearing all your jackets and layers and stuff is like pretty unusual, you know. We were like really depleted. But my partner had this strategy where you just walk until you get warm, and then you just lay down on the trail and fall asleep until you get cold again, which is like 15 minutes and then you wake up shaking because I mean we were just like laying down in the dirt in the rain and you'd fall asleep for like 15 minutes and then be like oh my god we're cold and start walking again until you got warm it was really grim man it's like yeah yeah

16:17Graham Bensinger:how do you handle rain when you're high up on a mountain free soloing um I thankfully have not

16:24Alex Honnold:really had to handle rain I look at the forecast before I start okay or I just look at the sky like looks rainy today's not the day okay so if there's a chance bad weather is going to come in you yeah or often with the soloing it's fast enough that even if it does start to rain you could be like you basically just make that split second decision like go for the top or down climb as fast as i can and what's the worst conditions you've ever been in when you've been high up soloing or with a with a rope um either well with a rope like i mean horrible conditions like i mean this experience i'm just talking about in patagonia like you know nuclear winds and we were at the top of this icy spire.

17:02Alex Honnold:So we were connected to a sheet of ice, literally hanging from ice screws, sitting on ice, waiting for four hours, hoping that the sky would clear. Because the forecast that we'd seen a couple days before looked like it should get better. It turns out the forecast had changed and it never got better. But so, I mean, it's Patagonia. It's like nuclear winds, overcast. Well, and the thing about Patagonia,

17:19Graham Bensinger:and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no other landmass anywhere in the world in line with it, so there's nothing to block the wind. So there are just constant winds all the time. It just rages across the ocean, yeah.

17:28Alex Honnold:the wind is legendary and like definitely lives up to it you're like whoa right yes I mean you know those kinds of conditions with the rope have been pretty full-on but ropeless I've never really had anything except for you know a little bit of cold or wind or nothing serious how difficult is

17:45Graham Bensinger:it to turn around when you're high up on a mountain free on a climb free soloing typically I can down

17:53Alex Honnold:climb as well as like an up climb so it takes a little bit longer but is that common i mean i have

17:59Graham Bensinger:i mean i've down climbed a lot of things yeah i mean are most elite climbers able to do that or is that pretty much once you get high up it's a little bit the only way to get off is to keep going up

18:09Alex Honnold:no i mean it's a bit of an acquired skill like to practice down climbing but um i think anyone who's had enough experience climbing in their life can probably down climb pretty well i mean And yeah, you just, yeah, it's all right.

18:21Graham Bensinger:When you're the best in the field, as you are, what's... I don't know. I'm like mildly uncomfortable with that, because it's not, you know, there are a lot of others.

18:34Alex Honnold:It just depends how you measure it. There are a lot of other solos who have like done very, very hard things, but just like in different categories, kind of.

18:43Graham Bensinger:All right. Well, you're modest. Well, you know. I mean, how do you find competition?

18:50Alex Honnold:You mean, what do I think about it? Or how do I seek it out?

18:53Graham Bensinger:When you're at the top of the field, where's the competition?

18:59Alex Honnold:Well, so, I mean, the thing is, in the field of climbing, I'm far from the top. I mean, if you look at a specific little niche of big wall-free soloing, then it's true that there's basically nobody else doing that, so there's no real competition. But I think of myself as a climber, and like most of my partners that I climb with are, you know, better than me. Or at least better than me at some point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Got it. I mean, yesterday I was like training with a friend of mine who's not even like a great climber, but like we were just doing like a workout on a hangboard just like hanging on small edges and he could hang on like certain edges better than I could.

19:31Alex Honnold:And I was like, man, you're really strong. You know, not even necessarily like, you know, he's not like an elite climber exactly, but like he just hanged. I was like, you know, there's always like people are always better than you at something. How much room for growth do you think you have? I think there's like so much room for growth. Yeah, I think. Because that's the thing is I've always been physically like relatively weak. Or like one of my friends has always said that I have embarrassingly weak fingers for a climber. You know, so I mean, I've never been like the strongest. I just do interesting things.

20:00Alex Honnold:And so, I mean, I think if I was stronger, I could do a lot of things. I don't know.

20:04Graham Bensinger:I mean, to get stronger, I mean, would it help to like go to the gym and hit weights? No, not weights.

20:11Alex Honnold:But it would help to train more systematically, like in climbing specific. Like what? Like on a hangboard, like basically hanging on small edges, which is what I'm doing now. Okay. Like I just spent the last month on like a proper rigorous training cycle, and then this month I'm trying to do the same.

20:27Graham Bensinger:And so what does the schedule entail over the month?

20:31Alex Honnold:My last month I was doing, well, part of it is just a matter of focus, too. I've always like focused on climbing, and then any kind of training, like exercise type stuff, I would do sort of on the side like in addition to climbing right this time I've refocused so it's like I only climb to like warm up for my training so that my training sessions can be like at a higher intensity but basically I like warm up and I train and then the next day I like climb kind of easy and the next day I rest and then I like train hard again so it's like three day cycles and what will the training actually entail basically just hanging from a small edge I mean it's all about isolating your fingers I mean so literally just hang from yeah it's I mean I think for a proper training it would be just hanging from an edge I've been doing pull-ups on an edge just because my travel setup is a little bit little ghetto you know I have like a hey like a pull-up bar and a doorframe then I have my hangboard hanging off the pull-up bar and then I'm like you know in my hotel room like bathroom or whatever you know hanging on this edge no I mean yesterday I freaking fell off the hangboard and like kind of hurt my butt like landing on the floor of the bathroom but you know because if you're like

21:38Graham Bensinger:maxing out we shouldn't be doing it in a hotel doorway well it's it seems to hold i haven't

21:43Alex Honnold:broken anything yet yeah but it's nicer because that way i can like do my own because like if i take my setup to the gym then it's like too public you know you're just like hanging out with like all these random like it's nice to be in my own room like put on my music hang out my boxers just hang on a small edge right you know and why do you rework your schedule in such a way

22:01Graham Bensinger:where it's more focused on training and less focused on climbing?

22:05Alex Honnold:Because the training is at a much higher intensity, so you can actually try harder and then get stronger. Whereas normally, I just climb until I'm kind of tired, and then I work out a little after, and so then you're too tired to work out properly because you've already been climbing too much. But the thing is, just going climbing outdoors, you can never really... It's very rare to find things hard enough to train at a high enough level. Especially because I travel a lot, I'm always climbing in random places, different crags. And so it's just hard to find things that are hard enough.

22:35Graham Bensinger:Explain what you'll visualize in preparing for a climb. With big solos? Yeah.

22:43Alex Honnold:I mean, normally if I'm thinking about doing some big solo, I just, I think, I mean, I visualize the whole process. You know, what it'll feel like, you know, the physical feeling of like my fingers holding the holds. I think about the actual sequence, like left hand, right hand, you know, step my foot through, lean over, left hand again, and the actual mechanics. I think about the position, what it'll feel like being up high, and the air all around. I think about what it'd be like to fall off different places, things like that.

23:11Graham Bensinger:And you say that, I read somewhere that you'll actually visualize falling to your death. Well, I mean, I have thought about it for sure.

23:19Alex Honnold:Like what, why? Because it'd be worse to have never thought about that and then suddenly be in the position and be like, holy , you know? Like it's better to think through like every different side of something. I mean, the thing is, like, if the idea of falling to my death is like insurmountable, like if I can't get past that fear, then like I probably shouldn't be up there. You know, you can't just like suppress that and then just like, I mean, you have to accept like the whole experience.

23:43Graham Bensinger:And what will you see when you visualize falling to your death?

23:46Alex Honnold:Well, I mean, you'd bounce off that ledge 20 meters below. You'd probably bounce off the ledge 40 meters below that. Eventually you would just fall to the ground and you'd be like dead. And you'll literally see yourself doing that. I mean, is that weird? Do you not do that?

24:01Graham Bensinger:Well, I'm not a pro climber either, so no.

24:04Alex Honnold:But, like, I mean, haven't you ever, like, when you're driving, haven't you ever thought about it? Would it be like just, like, veer into one of those little divide things on a highway and just, like, have your car explode or something? Surely you've thought about it. Yeah, I mean. Or, like, if you're on a single-lane freeway going super fast. Probably not with as much detail as. I think it's important to, like, to, yeah, to actually think it all the way through. Because the thing is, there are a lot of places with big walls. I mean, people always think that with soloing big walls, like, if you fall, you die.

24:29Alex Honnold:And, I mean, that is true on the bulk of the wall. But there are a lot of places where if you fell off, you'd probably land on the ledge right below you. Or you could probably, if you were thinking about it, you could probably grab something. Or, like, you know, if you're in a chimney system and you slip, I mean, you can basically self-arrest inside the chimney, which I've done before, but not soloing with a rope on. You know, so, I mean, I think it's important to, like, think all that stuff through. You know, like, one of the big solos that I did was Half Dome. and like technically the hardest moves on the route are like on the fourth pitch like say 400 feet off the ground is like the hardest physical sequence and it's above this big ledge thing that's kind of like a picnic table or maybe like two picnic tables almost so i mean if you fell off the hardest moves you would almost for sure land on the ledge and stick it so i mean it actually takes a lot of the commitment out where it's like if you fall off the hardest part you're not going to die probably though i mean there's quite a bit of other hard climbing on the route but um you I think it's important to know that kind of stuff.

25:24Graham Bensinger:Or to think it all through. I want to ask you about Half Dome coming up, but what do you see actually when you're up there climbing? What are you looking for?

25:33Alex Honnold:What do you mean?

25:34Graham Bensinger:Enlightenment. So you're midway up on a free solo climb. What are you looking for as you're climbing? You're looking for specific handholds? Well, normally I'm not really looking for anything.

25:52Alex Honnold:If I'm doing some big, hard solo, then I've probably already climbed the route, and I probably already know roughly what I'm doing. So I'm not really looking. I'm not seeking out holds. I sort of just execute it. I just climb it. I just know. It'd be like asking a race car driver or something, like what are they looking for as they go around the course? It's like they're not really. I mean, they're just driving super, super fast. I'm pretty sure they're not like, oh, I wonder if there's an exit here on the left. So then what are you seeing when you're up there?

26:16Graham Bensinger:I mean, you probably aren't looking around at the scenery.

26:20Alex Honnold:No, I mean, so on easy terrain, like if I'm doing easy soloing, then for sure I look around. I'm like, oh, beautiful mountains, beautiful day. Like, this is cool. But then when it gets to the hard climbing, then I sort of like narrow in a little bit.

26:31Graham Bensinger:And when you narrow in, what are you thinking about?

26:33Alex Honnold:Nothing. I'm just climbing.

26:35Graham Bensinger:Nothing. Okay.

26:36Alex Honnold:Yeah. Well, again, I mean, I hate to keep making sports analogies, but it's like it'd be like asking a gymnast what they think about during a routine. It's like they just do the motions. And then afterward, they're like, wow, that was cool. I assume. I've never done gymnastics, but...

26:49Graham Bensinger:And you listen to your iPod while climbing sometimes.

26:53Alex Honnold:I don't anymore, really.

26:53Graham Bensinger:Okay, because I read somewhere that you found it gets you to focus more, but then somewhere else you said you kind of view it as a crutch.

27:02Alex Honnold:Yeah, I kind of view it as a crutch now. I feel like music is just a way to, like, I don't know. I think it's a way to, like, suppress all the other things that are going on. You know, you, like, crank up the hate rock, and you're just like, here we go, and then you do it. It's like, I mean, that's a bit of a crutch. It's like, if you need music to help you focus, then, like, maybe you should just, like, learn to focus without it. I don't know. And so you primarily used it to help you focus? Maybe, or just, like, to get you psyched, or I don't know. I mean, it's sort of a tool. Like, I don't know, I just feel like it's better not to be using tools like that.

27:35Alex Honnold:Why? I mean, I still listen to music, especially on easy climbing. I listen to music all the time because it's, like, casual. But then on hard climbing, I find it so much, like, distracting. it's better just to be like totally focused on what I'm doing. Spring is here, and there's a whole new way to chai at Starbucks that's made perfect for you. Choose your sweetness, dial it up, or keep things light. Add a touch of pistachio, a hint of strawberry, or vanilla, or make it a spring classic with lavender. Because this season, there's endless ways to chai at Starbucks.

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28:32Alex Honnold:Bad advice? You talking to me?

28:34Graham Bensinger:Kayak. Got that right. So free soloing and, you know, climbing with or without a rope is pretty much the same physically, you've said. Yeah. But mentally, explain why free soloing is so much more challenging.

28:50Alex Honnold:Well, it's kind of obvious, right? Because if you fall off, you're going to die. So it's like, obviously, there's a lot more, like, fear involved. And, like, there's a lot more, there's more second guessing. There's just more going on in your head.

29:01Graham Bensinger:Yeah, but, I mean, you said for the most part, fear is kind of out of it for you at this point.

29:06Alex Honnold:But getting the fear out of it is all like stuff for you. I mean, I get it for me.

29:10Graham Bensinger:I'd be scared.

29:12Alex Honnold:But overcoming that fear is something that you go through beforehand, like before soloing, hopefully. You visualize, you deal with all those things. Yeah, I don't know. I don't even know. You just got to go try it.

29:25Graham Bensinger:It's not happening today. It might be. Explain why confidence is so important when it comes to free soloing.

29:36Alex Honnold:I mean, confidence is probably the... I don't know if it's confidence, just knowing what you can and can't do is the most important thing. Having an objective grasp on what you're physically able to do. Because obviously you never want to exceed your capabilities when you're soloing because you don't want to fall to your death. But then you also just have to truly believe that you can do what you know you can do. Yeah, you just have to go up there and do what you can do.

30:01Graham Bensinger:Why is it important to avoid getting your adrenaline going?

30:06Alex Honnold:Well, I mean, it's important to avoid any kind of major fear response type thing just because, I mean, you have like physiological changes. You know, your vision narrows, your breathing accelerates, like you overgrip. I mean, it happens a lot of time when you're climbing with a rope. You'll be like super, super scared and you can't see anything and you're holding on super tight and you're like, oh my God. And then you get a piece of gear and you clip your rope and all of a sudden you're safe. And then you're like, oh, and you relax. And then you're like, oh, there's this other huge hold right here that I should have grabbed but didn't see.

30:34Alex Honnold:And then you're like, oh, and there's a foothold. and suddenly you're like way more relaxed. So, I mean, you want to stay in that relaxed state the whole time.

30:40Graham Bensinger:But I think I've read before, too, that you've said it's not even good to just get pumped for a climb. You mean like amped up? Yeah, like amped up.

30:50Alex Honnold:Yeah, again, because I feel like that's a bit of a crutch if you just like – I mean, that's something that somebody – that a lot of people have done on smaller routes. Like if you're soloing something that's only like 30 or 40 meters, say like 100 and 150 feet high, you can get like all super psyched up and then climb it and it'll take you like four or five minutes so you can kind of maintain that like artificial high of like i'm so psyched here we go yeah you know but like if you're climbing like a 2 000 foot wall you can't just be like here we go you know because like five minutes later you're like oh my god i'm really scared now or i'm like tired or whatever it's like you know you can't just like artificially amp yourself up you have to like have a nice even you know like controlled so if you're midway up on a climb and you stick

31:30Graham Bensinger:your fingers and a handhold and a scorpion bites your fingers or you know some other section a bird or a bat flies out or a rock falls the unexpected yeah so with that yeah I mean that does happen

31:43Alex Honnold:like a fair amount and and that's when you do get like a shot of adrenaline or like a shot of fear and you like your your breathing accelerates and you're like oh gosh and that's when you just have to like force yourself to take some deep breaths and calm yourself down and just deal with it Though oftentimes those things, by the time they've happened, it's already happened and done. So even though you get scared for a second, you're like, well, it's done. It's like the situation's already resolved. So then rationally you can just be like, this is, you know, moving on. Here we go.

32:11Graham Bensinger:Any close calls?

32:13Alex Honnold:I mean, all those things that you described have happened, you know, like scorpions, like bats, birds, you know, bees.

32:20Graham Bensinger:I mean, any close calls, though, where, you know, you're free soloing and that happens and you have that kind of...

32:26Alex Honnold:No, I've never like... You didn't catch yourself. The closest calls have been breaking holds, like pulling rocks off. You know, I've had something where I pull the rock off and as I'm leaning back with the rock with me, I've managed to shove the rock back into place and sort of catch my balance and stay on the wall. Okay. And I've had scrambling in the mountains, not quite free-soling on a vertical wall, but climbing a big peak in the mountains. I've pulled some rocks off and then done some Super Mario-type jumps where you jump to a ledge, jump to another ledge, and then sort of stick it with all these rocks falling past you and you're like whoa that was close you know things like that how much do you enjoy setting records oh man it's always satisfying to do something new that's cool but it's like it's rarely the primary motivation and like most of the speed records and things that i have are like the byproduct of of style like because i'm climbing it without a rope or because i'm climbing in a certain way it just happens to be faster than it has been before a few i want to ask you about

33:20Graham Bensinger:first being the triple. Yeah. Put the difficulty of that into context.

33:29Alex Honnold:I mean, it's pretty hard. I don't know. I mean, you know, time will tell. Maybe in five years it'll be easy. Maybe people will do that all the time. I mean, how would you... You've been using sports analogies.

33:39Graham Bensinger:Oh, yeah. So what would you, like, compare to putting it into context for somebody who knows very little about the sport?

33:46Alex Honnold:I mean, yeah, so doing the triple in Yosemite would be comparable to some kind of like super ultra marathon or something like i can't really think of other sporting events because you know it's like doing a bunch of really hard things back to back um all very quickly you know so i mean other sports is like you just play the game and you're done right but like you know so it'd be like doing iron man maybe but like but way more than that because you know a lot of people do iron mans what was involved with doing it the triple Well, I mean, the triple is just the three biggest walls in Yosemite in a day.

34:18Alex Honnold:But, I mean, if you just add up the time that, like, average parties spend on each route, I mean, like, climbing El Cap, which is just one of the three walls, people typically spend, you know, two to five days. And then climbing Half Dome, people typically spend, you know, I mean, most people spend one or two days on the face, but a lot of people camp at the base and then spend a day walking down. You know, it's like people spend two or three days, like, total experience. And then climbing the third wall, people, same thing. people spend two or three days or like two days on the wall plus a day of hiking to get on and off.

34:46Alex Honnold:So, I mean, it's like a week and a half's worth of climbing. And, you know, for an average party, you'd have to rest for a day in between each of those, or you'd rest for two or three days because you'd be pooped. You know, and so, yeah, it's like a week or two worth of climbing, and you're doing that all in like an 18-hour push. How do you do it in 18 hours? It's like a byproduct of style, like what I'm saying. Just, I mean, so I did it, I think, solo in 1850, I think. And that's because, you know, I was basically climbing without a rope and just moving pretty quickly. And I knew the routes really well.

35:15Alex Honnold:And I was like, really, you know, I was dialed on that whole thing. But I also free climbed the triple with Tommy Caldwell, like the two of us climbing with ropes and protection. And that was actually probably harder physically.

35:25Graham Bensinger:And Tommy Caldwell, another elite climber. Yeah. Made. Who I just had breakfast with. Oh, did you? Very exciting to see him. Made international news for his Dawn Wall.

35:33Alex Honnold:Yeah, you guys would have done something with him with the Dawn Wall, but it didn't work out with whatever. Footage issues. Yeah, exactly. Which is not his call. He was like, what? I don't even know. But no, he's awesome. He and his wife were just having breakfast with me and their little kid.

35:54Graham Bensinger:So with doing that in 18 hours, 1850, whatever it was, I mean, any time of year, are you in shape to be able to go and do that? Or is that, you know, like the peak of your training?

36:10Alex Honnold:Doing the triple sort of represented like the peak of my fitness for the year. And I'd sort of structured my whole year of climbing around that. I'd spent the winter like bouldering, like doing hard, hard climbing just to get physically strong. And then I'd spent the spring like sport climbing, which is sort of like taking that strength and like making it a little bigger. And then I'd actually gone to Morocco and was climbing big walls in Morocco and felt really strong and then showed up in Yosemite like fit and like motivated and like already in shape for long days and then in Yosemite I did a bunch of progressively longer days until I like basically culminated with the triple but that season in Yosemite I did the free triple with Tommy I did the solo triple I did the speed record on the nose which I was pretty excited about and I free sold like a route on the West Face El Cap which it was like everything I'd ever wanted to do all like in one month which is you know basically like peaking for my sport The free solo of Half Dome, what went on when you got to Thank God Ledge?

37:07Alex Honnold:You've seen the film? You've seen the footage?

37:09Graham Bensinger:Yeah, I've seen the footage. I mean, I've seen footage, but then the footage was kind of a... I mean, I've also read what you've said about it where you just kind of freaked out.

37:22Alex Honnold:Yeah, but so what I wrote about it and what you see in the footage are different things. And actually, that's something important that, like, any of the footage you see is pretty much shot after the fact. Right, the footage was a reenactment, right? Yeah, exactly. We were just going back to, like, get shots of it, to, like, tell the story, whatever.

37:35Graham Bensinger:Which has since become iconic and really resonated with people.

37:40Alex Honnold:But it's weird because, like, in the film, they have all this interview footage of me talking about the experience of soloing the wall. And then they have all this visual, you know, the footage of me climbing on it. And those are, like, two separate experiences. But they sort of just combine them to, like, tell the story well. and it is a great film and I think they did a really good job of like sharing what that experience is like but it's just not like literally true you know like walking across Thank God Ledge is like one of the easiest parts on the whole route I mean you're on a ledge you're walking it's like super safe super simple but they just got some footage of me like getting a little scared on it and being like cool and then turning around and sorting myself out but then they like cut my interview footage of me talking about something much much harder just above Thank God Ledge and so you know it creates this beautiful scene but it's not like strictly true you know right

38:23Graham Bensinger:So it's then just above, thank God, ledge. Yeah, just, um.

38:27Alex Honnold:What went on? Just like 60, 70 feet above, thank God, ledge is like this really smooth, hard slab. It's just like blank. And that's kind of characteristic of granite is that there aren't like things to hold on to. You just have to like paste your feet against the wall and like trust the rubber on your shoes to stick. And you just have to like crawl up it like a gecko or something.

38:45Graham Bensinger:And is that where you noticed a bolt sticking out of the wall?

38:49Alex Honnold:Yeah. Yeah, so normally people climb that section of wall, and it's like a blank, smooth wall. Normally people clip into the bolts and then, like, stand on the bolts and clip the next one and go up the bolts like a ladder. And so I was climbing, and then I got to a certain move that felt insecure for me, and I had to trust a foothold that I didn't want to stand on, and I got all scared. And it's, like, weird there, too, because you're right below the summit, so I could, like, hear all these tourists on the summit. And it was, like, this whole crazy experience where, you know, I'm, like, super scared and, like, all, you know, I'd been free soloing for two and a half hours and was like getting physically or like mentally exhausted just like tired of being up on this wall and then get to a certain point get all scared I can like hear people laughing above me and stuff and you're like this is so weird like I just want to be done you know I'm so close and yet and then yeah and there was a bolt like right in front of me so I really wanted to grab the bolt and like cheat but then I was also like oh I don't want to invalidate the whole you know 2 ,000 feet of climbing I did to get here and so I mean ultimately I just like sorted through it and I like stepped on the foot and I, you know, I did it.

39:50Alex Honnold:And then getting to the top is like totally surreal with like people everywhere, you know, it's just like so weird.

39:54Graham Bensinger:Wait, before we get to that though, so take me to that specific moment where you're kind of freaking out. What are you thinking about? Well, so I don't know.

40:04Alex Honnold:I was just like, oh, I don't want to step on this foothold because it's really small and I'm not sure if my foot will stick to it.

40:08Graham Bensinger:And what happens if your foot doesn't stick to it?

40:10Alex Honnold:Well, I mean, if my foot slides off and I probably fall off the wall and I probably you know slide down the slab and then fall 2 ,000 feet in my death. I mean there's no real way to like self-arrest on a wall like that like it's it'd be catastrophic. But the thing is like a couple days before I'd climb that same section of wall and I'd done the exact same maneuver using that bad foot and I'd even like thought about like oh this is kind of weird but I figured there was a better way to do it that I was just doing it wrong and then I got up there and I sort of tried all these different ways I like put my foot way out to the side on something was like ooh, that feels out of balance.

40:42Alex Honnold:I tried to stand on something else, and I was like, oh, that seems worse. I sort of realized that the way I'd done it before was the way that I had to do it. I was like, oh, that's pretty scary. I don't want to do that.

40:53Graham Bensinger:And how long are you going back and forth trying to decide?

40:57Alex Honnold:I have no idea. I mean, I think I wrote a couple minutes, but it could have been like 45 seconds. Who knows? It could have been, yeah, I have no idea.

41:04Graham Bensinger:And how, when you made the decision to put your foot on that?

41:09Alex Honnold:Well, it was more like so I knew what I had to do and I knew, you know, exactly what that was, but I just didn't want to. Right. And so I sort of like lashed out wildly, you know, like, I mean, that's the thing. That's when your mind starts going like, well, maybe I should do this or this or like all these other things until you sort of like eliminate all those. And then you're like, OK, now I'll just do the thing that I knew that I had to do. Right. What was your level of confidence when you put your foot on it? Well, so, I mean, I don't know. I just I was like, this is what has to be done. So I just did it.

41:39Alex Honnold:I mean, it had worked two days before us, obviously. You know, like, I knew that it works.

41:43Graham Bensinger:And the difference being you had rope on two days before, so something goes wrong.

41:48Alex Honnold:Yeah, I was protected. But, I mean, I'm wearing the same shoes. I'm, like, in the same level of fitness. You know, it's all the same. So, I mean, I know that, you know, I just did this. Like, it should work. But you're just like, oh, I don't want to.

41:58Graham Bensinger:Is that the most indecisive you've ever been where literally it's kind of a life or death type situation?

42:06Alex Honnold:No, I mean, I've had things where I get into a similar situation like that, and I'm just like, I'm not into this, and I climb back down. Okay.

42:12Graham Bensinger:But there really wasn't any climbing back down?

42:15Alex Honnold:No, I mean, on half dome, I probably could have. Or I could have grabbed the bolts and just cheated, which would have been easy and safe. That's kind of the thing is that this is always framed as this do or die, like either I make the move or I die. And it's actually not really true. It's like either I make the move or I cheat. Either I do it or I just grab the bolt and just go to the top.

42:33Graham Bensinger:Would there have been the time to grab the bolt if you did it and your foot starts to go?

42:40Alex Honnold:Maybe. I don't know. That's ultimately what I did, actually. The hold that I was using was really close to this bolt, and the bolt had a really big carabiner on it. So from the hold that I was using, I could put one finger onto the carabiner. And so I felt like that wasn't really cheating because I'm not pulling on the carabiner. But I had a finger on it just in case I started to slip. I could just snag it, which I was like, you know, figured that was a bit of a compromise. But I felt fine with it.

43:00Graham Bensinger:So you get to the top, and what are tourists saying to you when you get up?

43:05Alex Honnold:So it's weird, because normally when you get to the top of Half Dome, when you have a rope and a partner, you get, like, mobbed with tourists who are like, oh, my God, you climbed the face. That's so crazy, so extreme. But, like, when I sold it, I got to the top, and I was, like, shirtless and all, like, jacked. You know, just like, oh, my God, you know, because I just had this crazy experience right below the top. But I had, like, nothing on me. I had no backpack and, like, no climbing stuff. and I was just like shoes, harness, chalk, or no harness, just shoes and chalk bag. And then, and I wanted somebody to be like, that's rad, because I just had one of the biggest experiences of my life, and nobody noticed at all, because I just looked like some hiker hanging out.

43:41Alex Honnold:And I was just like, that's so weird. And then I hiked down barefoot, and then on the walk down, because you can't hike in climbing shoes, it's too tight. And then on the hike, everyone's like, oh my God, you're barefoot, that's so extreme. The world moves fast. Your work day, even faster. pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data, Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work. Built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use. Helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize. So you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more at Microsoft.com slash M365 Copilot.

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44:54Graham Bensinger:You know, like it's so good. It was so crazy. The most satisfying experience from your career to date would be what? I mean, like, the biggest climb, you know, doing the Fit Traverse in Patagonia with Tommy Caldo was probably, like, the most significant climb of my life.

45:11Alex Honnold:But the thing is, like, as soon as we were finished, I got snow blind throughout the experience. So, like, the next five days or whatever when we were done, like, I couldn't see really. And, like, my eyes really hurt. Were you not wearing glasses? I wasn't wearing them while I was climbing. I wore them on the snow, but I wasn't. but all the white granite and just, I don't know, being in Southern Hemisphere and just whatever, I burned my eyes. And so it's like, oh, biggest climb of my life, super exciting. But like, as soon as I was done, I was like, I feel destroyed. Like, I can't see. I was like sitting in a house with all the curtains closed with glacier glasses on for like a week.

45:41Alex Honnold:I couldn't read. I was like, this is pretty depressing. And so, you know, I don't know. Everything has its ups and downs. You're like, well, it's an amazing climb, but like it took a certain toll. whereas like a casual day of sport climbing with my friends is like super fun super nice it's good to be out like with all my friends but it doesn't have that like deep life satisfaction of like wow we did this amazing thing that i'm really proud of i don't know i just like going climbing all the time so what would be the ultimate free soloing experience for you i mean for me the ultimate would be soloing el cap that's like the obvious like most amazing thing in the world how badly

46:17Graham Bensinger:do you want to do it?

46:18Alex Honnold:I mean, I've always wanted to, but then I've always looked at it and been like, I don't know. I mean, like, so I sold it half to them in 2008. And then in 2009, I was like, okay, you know, El Cap is the obvious next thing. And I like climbed, I mean, I've climbed El Cap like every season. I climb it tons of times, tons of different routes. There are many different free routes. I've climbed it many different styles. And so every year I climb El Cap and I'm like, well, not the year, you know, like it just fills me with fear. I'm just like, Like, it's just not, I don't know.

46:45Graham Bensinger:So you say that to yourself?

46:47Alex Honnold:Yeah, I mean, so there have been at least, like, two or three years where it's like, oh, this year I'm going to, like, go and work on El Cap. And then I always, like, get there and I look at it and I'm like, whoa. And then I climb it and I'm like, whoa, like, too much. I don't know. But it's starting to feel like maybe, though, someday.

47:02Graham Bensinger:Oh, but that's that thing that you were talking about where you still have that fear going through you. And you don't think until the fear dissipates more that you're... I don't know.

47:12Alex Honnold:Yeah, until I can get my mind around it or something. I mean, if I look at it and I'm filled with dread, that's not the appropriate mental state to be like, I'm going to go up that without a rope. And especially if I or anybody else were to solo all cap, it's going to take probably five hours or more. I mean, that's a really long time to maintain a positive mental attitude. What's the longest you've ever free soloed something? I think my longest solos have been three hours or less.

47:38Graham Bensinger:So, I mean, that's almost double.

47:39Alex Honnold:But then doing something like the triple, though, was like 18, 19 hours, and I wasn't technically free soloing the whole time, but I was free soloing for sections. So it did take a long time. And I actually did a free soloing link up in Zion where I did 3 ,000 foot walls, and each one took an hour, hour and a half. So the total time is similar.

47:58Graham Bensinger:Zion National Park in Utah, but there's a big difference between having a break in between each and then doing it for five hours straight on what is kind of the holy grail of free soloing. I don't know.

48:11Alex Honnold:It'd be a big undertaking mentally. What's the likelihood you do it? I don't know. I don't know. Come on. I mean, honestly, like, I don't know. I mean, because I've wanted to do it for years. I mean, that's, like, no big surprise. But, like, I don't know. It would take a little. I mean, it would take a lot of preparation, but then also it would just take a certain, it would take a few more steps mentally, I think. So if you were going to do it, when do you,

48:35Graham Bensinger:what do you think would be the best scenario to do it in?

48:38Alex Honnold:I'm not sure. So, I mean, when I've thought about it, I think about all these logistical things, like what's best, what's best. But the thing is, ultimately, I think when I'm ready to do it, it won't really matter. I'll just go do it, you know. I mean, and I've had that experience with a couple other walls, like, in my past, where I've been like, oh, I don't know. There are, like, all these things with conditions. I want it to be perfect. But then when I finally actually did it, it was just like, whatever, today's the day. I just went and did it.

48:59Graham Bensinger:So you'll find yourself unnecessarily kind of overanalyzing?

49:02Alex Honnold:Yeah, I mean, I think because I think when you're not fully, like, prepared for something, you're like, oh, it has to be perfect in order for me to, like, consider doing this. But then once you are ready for it and it seems like easy to you, you just go and do it and it's like no big thing.

49:15Graham Bensinger:If you were going to do it, how long before you think it's too late to do it?

49:22Alex Honnold:What do you mean?

49:23Graham Bensinger:I mean, a climber probably has only a finite number of years.

49:30Alex Honnold:I bet I still have like eight or ten years though. The reason is climbing El Cap isn't, I mean, it is physically quite hard, but it's not like elite performance. It's not like the upper pinnacle of rock climbing performance. I mean, I'll probably still be climbing that difficulty for at least 20 more years, you know. But whether or not I'll be motivated to do that, I mean, we'll see.

49:50Graham Bensinger:So Tommy Caldwell, you know, made international news, obviously, for his roped Dawnwall climb. And I think you've admitted before that at times you felt a little directionless and you said, you know, you aren't really sure what your Dawn Wall is. Explain that. And you've done some good research.

50:13Alex Honnold:Yeah, we try. Yeah, you don't mess.

50:18Alex Honnold:What's my Dawn Wall?

50:19Graham Bensinger:Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, with the whole Dawn Wall thing. I mean, just your mindset. You know, you said at times you felt a little directionless.

50:26Alex Honnold:Yeah, so it's interesting because what's always inspired me the most in climbing is always the big soloing. But I've never, like, set goals in soloing the way you set goals in other aspects of climbing because I've never wanted the pressure of, like, okay, it's the right time of the month. It's time for you to go solo that route. You know, because, like, I don't want to feel, like, any kind of pressure to perform like that. So, you know, like, when Tommy was doing the Dawn Wall, it was very explicit. Like, this is my public goal. Like, I want to free climb the Dawn Wall. And he, like, trained for it.

50:54Alex Honnold:He focused his life around it. He spent seven years of effort on it, and then he, like, ultimately succeeded, which is super inspiring. But I just would never go through that whole process for, like, any kind of soloing projects because I wouldn't want, like, expectations or pressure or, like, any of those kinds of things. And so it just means that I don't, you know, like, I mean, I have all kinds of goals in climbing, but, like, the things that mean the most to me, which are the big soloing or, like, the big solos, you know, I don't, like, organize my schedule around them the way you would, like, other climbing goals.

51:23Alex Honnold:I don't know and so that leaves me feeling a little more adrift because like the things that I'm training for I don't care about quite as much as the soloing But it's like I train for like normal climbing like rope climbing And then the soloing just kind of like fits in the cracks in between like when when I'm ready and I feel motivated

51:39Graham Bensinger:To what extent are you looking for? You know kind of that one goal that you can You know gravitate towards what do you mean? Yeah, I mean that one

51:51Alex Honnold:I mean, it's always nice having like a big project. I mean, for Tommy with the Dawn Wall, it was amazing because like he could structure all of his climbing around this one goal. And it like provides a lot of stability. You know, like he knows what to train for, what time of year to train, when to rest more. You know, and it gave him a lot of purpose. You know, and I'm just like, I've never quite had that. I'm like climbing more and like drifting around more and just, you know.

52:14Graham Bensinger:So how did living out of a van come about?

52:18Alex Honnold:No, I mean, living out of a van is pretty common for climbers. But basically it's just because seasons change and you want to move. So it makes sense to be in a car

52:26Graham Bensinger:had you I mean, what was the process involved with kind of

52:32Alex Honnold:I mean my personal journey was like I had my family minivan It was like not not so sweet and then I eventually destroyed it by accident and then I didn't have a car for a while I was like road tripping with like a Ex-girlfriend and then I was like on a bicycle for a while and then eventually I bought my current van, and I've lived in that for eight years now, I think.

52:52Graham Bensinger:You've kind of outfitted it a little bit from the early days.

52:56Alex Honnold:I've done three different builds inside my van. Three different builds? Yeah, three different interiors. The first one an uncle and I built in an afternoon. It's pretty scrappy. And then the second one I had a friend build, and it was quite a bit nicer. And then the most recent one I had another retired engineer friend build, and it's really nice. So how did you get the nickname, the pedophile van? I mean, anyone living in a van gets like pedophile jokes. I mean, I have no windows. I have blacked out back. Like, I mean, it looks like a total. Yeah, I mean, everyone has like jokes. So what is it like?

53:30Alex Honnold:What do you have in there? My van is like a bed, a bunch of storage underneath, like a little kitchen counter, a stove built into it. And then, yeah, food. And I mean, it's really basic, but it's like a small apartment.

53:41Graham Bensinger:I mean, somebody I was talking to told me that, you know, you've been in the suburbs visiting somebody and they had an available bedroom and you still go out and sleep in your van.

53:53Alex Honnold:Yeah, people think that's weird to be like, oh, I sleep in the van. But the thing is, the van is like my home and I've been living in it for eight years. And also, like, I've gotten used to having everything within reach. Like when I'm sleeping in the van, I'm like, oh, I got to take a leak. I just like reach over, grab my pee bottle, take a pee in the bottle. I don't even have to get out of bed. And it's like when you get used to that after eight years, it feels like so uncivilized to have to like get out of your bed, turn on a light, wander to the bathroom. I'm like, why would I do that? It like totally wakes you up.

54:17Alex Honnold:It's like you can just like pee in your bottle, fall back asleep. It's like it's totally seamless. I mean, you could just bring the pee bottle. Yeah, yeah, you could. But that's even weirder when you're staying in somebody's house and they're like, wait, you brought your pee bottle in. I don't know. It's just like I mean, I love my van. Everything's within reach. It's all like right there. Like any, you know, if I'm like, oh, I want to like look something up in my journal or whatever. It's like, oh, there it is. and like it's all within arm's reach.

54:42Graham Bensinger:How long before you see yourself getting a permanent residence? I mean, that you spend more time?

54:50Alex Honnold:I don't know, my van's up to 206 ,000 miles, so it's starting to get a little tired. So I might need something different soon. Do you think you're gonna just get a new van? I probably will get a new van, but also actually this summer I bought my family's cabin, like my extended family. Yeah, in South Lake Tahoe. So now I do technically own a home, but it's only like a summer cabin that my grandpa built or whatever. So the new van that you get, same type of van, or will you... I'll get something bigger, I think. Like a sleeper home type deal? No, I'd probably get just like a... I'd get some kind of van where I could stand up.

55:22Alex Honnold:That's the main bummer about living in my car is that I can't stand up.

55:26Graham Bensinger:And I understand you'll bring girls back to the van? If I can, you know, if I'm lucky. You'll pick up a girl out and you'll... Like, what's a girl's reaction where you're like, hey, let me take you back to my head?

55:36Alex Honnold:Anybody who, like, for climbers, that's not that weird. And also, taking somebody to a van is way cooler than taking somebody to a tent. You know, like, if you're hanging out in a campground, it's like, going to a tent is so uncivilized. Yeah, but, okay, I know you dated a girl in New York for a while that actually lived a normal lifestyle. Yeah, yeah. But then it's, like, kind of, like, you know, it's, like, it's something different. It's all adventurous. You're like, oh, you know. But also, I mean, the thing about the van is, like, the van might not be that sweet, but the fact that you're parking it in the most beautiful places on earth, I mean, that's the sweet part.

56:05Alex Honnold:Right. Like, the thing that you get to do whatever you love most, that you're, like, having cool adventures every day. I mean, like, where you're sleeping is, like, not really that important compared to, like, what you're doing with the rest of your day. And, you know, by living in the van, I'm able to, like, stay in Yosemite for months at a time. And that's, like, pretty awesome. And I think even chicks can appreciate that being in Yosemite is better than, like, having a nice apartment, like, in the city.

56:26Graham Bensinger:How much do you think being in a relationship interferes with your climbing?

56:31Alex Honnold:Relationship stuff is tough. I don't know. It's a big predicament for you, right? Yeah, so, I mean, I dated a very nice girl on and off for, like, five years, five and a half or something. Throughout, I mean, like, when I did the trip on Yosemite, I was, like, in a real relationship at the time. And so when I look at, I mean, I have a climbing journal and I have it all, like, laid out. So, I mean, I know that objectively the times that I was in a serious relationship doesn't actually change my performance of climbing at all. You know, like, I was climbing at a high level, like, regardless. But for some reason when you're single, you just feel a little more hunger, you know, it's like you feel like you're more motivated or like training harder.

57:06Alex Honnold:I don't know, even though it's not strictly true. But, yeah, I don't know, relationships is tough. What do you struggle with about it? I mean, I struggle with the amount of travel, as I'm sure I'm sure you probably do, too, or maybe a lot of travel. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, just like with constant trips and like gone for a month, gone for another month. And it's like if somebody has a normal job and they like live in a normal city, it's like, you know, either you basically never see them or I don't know. It's just hard to make it work.

57:37Graham Bensinger:And have you, I mean, decided where you come out on that, where you want to make a commitment to really trying to make a relationship work or whether you've just decided it's not worth it to continue becoming a better partner?

57:51Alex Honnold:I haven't made any decision one way or not. I mean, I'm sure if I met the right person, I was super excited. It would be easy for me to make certain, or I feel like I could make certain compromises and train indoors a little bit more, just make it work. Or maybe if it was a climber. I don't know. I mean, I'm open to whatever. It just hasn't happened.

58:12Graham Bensinger:One of your close friends told me that you live kind of extreme, so you could be living in a van in the woods for an extended period of time, but then you take a month off of climbing and you're living the kind of suburban, urban lifestyle for a while, and your friend told me that you kind of in different ways struggle with both. Explain that.

58:38Alex Honnold:Yeah, who was that? Ben. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's not totally true, because I haven't really taken, And so this year I took like a month or two off of climbing, and it was the first time I've taken a break in like seven years or something, which was kind of nice. Though even when I took time off of climbing, I actually spent it all on Yosemite, but I was just like going trail running and hiking, and like I would bike the bike path around, and like so beautiful, so fun. But I mean it is true, though, that I have wildly different – I mean like I spent the last month in South America like doing a tour with films and stuff and like climbing random places.

59:15Alex Honnold:But so I was in like hotels the whole time and like the whole urban scene Just being like taken out to the crags by people and that's like wildly different than like being in my van in Yosemite for for a season So I mean I do get like both ends of the spectrum a little bit And yeah, and they both have their ups and downs overall though. I much prefer the van life just because it's more like Tranquilo, you know, it's more peaceful.

59:37Graham Bensinger:Do you think because you've done that for so long now that you'll always want to do that? or do you think you'll, I mean, you had a normal upbringing, you know, through high school where, I mean, you weren't living out of a van, you were, you know, living in a house with your parents. I mean, but do you think since you've done this for the past 10 years or so that you're always going to want to do it?

1:00:00Alex Honnold:No, I think, I mean, the things that I love about van life are like being in a beautiful place, you know, the peacefulness of it. Like, I mean, it's very relaxing just like sleeping in the van. Like, if I eventually live in Tahoe or something, I mean, that's a lot of the same benefits of van life. You know, if I have my own place, it's nice and peaceful. I'm, like, in the mountains. I can go out and do cool things every day. I mean, I think overall, I probably enjoy that, you know, more than living in a car. I mean, being able to stand up is a big plus.

1:00:26Graham Bensinger:Yeah, but you can just get out of your van and stand up, too, right?

1:00:29Alex Honnold:Yeah, but it's a little more like public, you know? Like, I generally stay on a friend's driveway. You're going to be able to piss in a...

1:00:38Graham Bensinger:Well, I'll still rock that.

1:00:40Alex Honnold:Okay. In my house, I'll have like a big jug on the floor. So I can empty it every week.

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1:01:30Graham Bensinger:How would you describe what high school was like for you?

1:01:34Alex Honnold:I don't know. I don't even remember high school that well anymore, but it was, you know, it was fine. I did well in school. I went climbing a lot. I was just like a big loser.

1:01:43Graham Bensinger:Yeah, but your friend Ben tells me that while you say you're a big loser, you were at the time kind of bitter that you weren't having the traditional high school experience, yet you avoided the social situations that could have improved the high school experience.

1:01:59Alex Honnold:Yeah, that's like the classic, like wanting to be cool, wanting to have cool friends, but then being like, oh, that's just not me. I don't know. I mean, you know, all the cool kids were all so, like, handsome and beautiful, and I was not. And so, you know, but that's all, like, classic teenage angst. I mean, that's, like, the core of, like, a half dozen movies a year, you know, like coming of age type stuff. Right. Like, who am I and what am I doing, and why is everybody else cooler than me without realizing that everybody else is, like, struggling with the same things, you know?

1:02:28Graham Bensinger:What did your mom tell you about how early on you became really mobile as a kid? Oh, I think all that's bulls**t.

1:02:35Alex Honnold:I think mom's just like, you know, it's like kind of annoying. Is it? Well, I mean, it's just like your mom's like, oh, I always knew he'd be so amazing. And you're like, whatever. It's total. You know, the thing is, like, had I not become a climber, had I, like, become an engineer or something, which is like I was sort of on track for, like, go to university, get a normal job. Mom would be like, I always knew that he was good with numbers, you know, Because I mean she could just as easily cherry-pick a bunch of anecdotes about like my academic performance when I was a kid and be like He was always gifted you know you're like whatever you know it's like that's just like typical parent stuff

1:03:07Graham Bensinger:So how early did you start climbing?

1:03:10Alex Honnold:I mean I started climbing in the gym when the first gym opened in Sacramento. I think I was 10 or 11 maybe 11 What did you enjoy about it? I just have always I mean so even before the gym opened I was like climbing on trees and buildings and like climbing on the roof and like playing on things I love like swinging on the monkey bars, all that kind of stuff. I mean, I've always just like...

1:03:28Graham Bensinger:I mean, was this like typical kid playing around, or was this kind of above and beyond what most kids do?

1:03:33Alex Honnold:I mean, it was just like a more extreme version of typical kid playing around. Because it's the same, like I was playing on all the same stuff, but I was just probably taking it a few steps further. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, I remember like hiding on the roof of the school, like, you know, things like that, just random. But yeah, and then once the gym opened, I love the movement. I just love like, yeah, I love the movement of climbing. And that's always been like the core of it.

1:03:56Graham Bensinger:And what do you mean the movement of climbing?

1:03:57Alex Honnold:You know, like brachiating. Like swinging around, like feeling your body move around, like feeling the balance or like holding on to things. I don't know, I just like, I like the way your body feels when you're moving like that. And when did you realize that you really liked it? I've just always really liked it. I never realized. People always ask, when did you decide to be a pro climber? Or when did you decide that climbing was your thing? And it's not like I've ever decided it. It's just that every day for the last 20 years, I'd rather go climbing than do anything else.

1:04:27Graham Bensinger:I mean, but was it that first day at the gym where your dad took you there and was belaying you that you kind of made me hit you? I don't remember.

1:04:35Alex Honnold:But I mean, I just always liked it. You took me in. I was like, this is awesome. Let's come back. And I've just always been like, let's go back.

1:04:40Graham Bensinger:What's your earliest climbing memory?

1:04:42Alex Honnold:I remember like my home gym, like the original gym that opened in Sacramento has a bunch of roots like carved into the The walls are like sort of plaster and they have like carved roots in the walls It's like normally, you know They change the roots around because it's holes that you screw on but the ones that are carved into the wall are like permanent plaster And so a lot of those roots like I still could go in and climb a couple of them blindfolded I haven't been there in like 10 years, but I just like know every single move on a lot of those roots because I climbed them like Many times a day for my entire childhood And so like in some ways that kind of like muscle memory type thing is like what I remember most of like my early gym experiences I mean I could easily like draw out the sequence for like half the things in that old gym.

1:05:20Alex Honnold:It's like Yes, it's classic.

1:05:22Graham Bensinger:What would you say were your first 15 minutes of fame growing up? Like you know the first time you're climbing got some recognition. I

1:05:32Alex Honnold:Remember the first time somebody just recognized me in public. You're like are you that climber? And I was like thought it was so weird you know i was like i was in in and out burger like way back when it's like oh my god like some stranger is talking to me in public what'd they say i don't know he was just i forget it was just some dude who's like it's like hey are you you know like i forget he must have maybe seen me in a magazine or something because i mean i remember the first like q a i did with rock and ice magazine like before i'd gotten coverage for anything else and um you know it was the type of things like once i'm in the mags then i'll get laid you know like that type of thing.

1:06:05Alex Honnold:Then did it turn out that way? No, no, no, like not even close. It's funny because like, I think a lot of people think that that like once you're in a film. You've groupies now? No, but I mean, not the way like you think of groupies, certainly not like rock star style where people are throwing their panties at you or something. But I will say people are certainly more interested to talk, you know, they're more willing to like chat with me. So at least I have like an in. But then it's like, I don't know, I'm still aspiring to a better groupie scene. No, but, like, I mean, people always think, like, oh, once you're in a film, then it's easy to pick up chicks.

1:06:37Alex Honnold:Or, like, once you're on the cover of magazines, it's easy. And it's, like, just not true at all. It's more like once you have, like, an enormous body of work, then, like, people are interested in chatting with you more. And then you can kind of, like, translate that, I guess.

1:06:49Graham Bensinger:Family life and upbringing. You know, your friend told me the household you grew up in, there really wasn't a lot of love. Your dad was sleeping on the couch, you know, most nights. You said your mom was kind of frosty and distant. And in his perspective, it just didn't seem like your parents really wanted to be parents. How did that affect you?

1:07:12Alex Honnold:No, I'm frosty and cold, so I don't know. No, I don't know. I mean, and that might be a bit, you know, he's like giving too much on one side a little bit. But I don't know. I mean, the thing is, like, when you're a kid, that all seems normal. So you just think that that's like the way things are. It's not until you're an adult that you're like, oh, wow, it seemed like my family scene was a little bit different than the typical. But, you know, it's all worked out well.

1:07:37Graham Bensinger:Well, I mean, what do you think as an adult, though?

1:07:40Alex Honnold:Well, as an adult, I think that my parents probably should have gotten divorced when we were little kids, and they would have led happier, more well-adjusted lives. I think that they just did a little bit too much of the stay-together-for-the-kids type of thing, and they just weren't personally fulfilled and personally happy in there. because it's funny they got they got divorced after I graduated high school it was like the classic you know stay together until the kids leave and then and then be done and like for the year the year after they divorced they were both like so much cooler to be around and so much happier and like nicer people and I was like dude you guys should have done this like 15 years ago I was like or maybe 10 years ago but yeah so much nicer but then my dad unfortunately died the next year and so then like never really got to see like him as the normal like a lot of my older cousins and stuff talk about how cool my dad was when he was young but like I only knew him as like an older guy who was like not that happy you know yeah so it's kind of too bad I never got to see

1:08:32Graham Bensinger:him as like you know his own person you went through a period like a year that seemed like it must have been really tough because I think it was the day before you were moving into college your grandpa passes away then I think you find out around that time that your parents are divorcing and then within a year of that, your dad dies of a heart attack. How difficult was that period for you to go through?

1:08:56Alex Honnold:Both my grandparents and my father all died within, like, the end of high school, being in college. Okay. But, yeah, I mean, I guess it was hard, but it's one of those things where, like, when you're going through it, it just, you know, that's just life. I don't know. Especially as a teenager, I was, like, all angstful on anything anyway. So it's like, I don't know. And tied up with all the other family. Like, we just weren't, like, close in the way some families are, and so it didn't feel, yeah, I don't know. It's weird.

1:09:25Graham Bensinger:Well, somebody told me that at the time it didn't really seem like you were struggling with anything, and you were just normal Alex, but then somebody told me that the 20-year-old Alex didn't really realize what he lost when his dad passed away, but the 30-year-old Alex knows very clearly.

1:09:44Alex Honnold:Yeah, I think that's actually kind of fair. is that I think it was 19-year-old Alex didn't really appreciate, like, what I lost when my dad died. And then, yeah, as an adult, I'm like, oh, that's kind of a bummer. Yeah. But, I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, that's being a kid is, like, not fully appreciating things, not quite understanding at all. Like, I mean, you just don't have, I didn't have, like, the proper framework to put it all in, you know.

1:10:10Graham Bensinger:So that happens. You end up leaving college. What do you decide to do?

1:10:17Alex Honnold:I mean, I didn't decide to drop out of college exactly. I was invited to Youth Worlds, and so it was this perfect, like, oh, I'll take a semester off, I'll go to Worlds and Europe, and then I'll travel a bit and I'll climb. And then I just never went back. Were you thinking you'd go back at the time? I mean, yeah. Were you? I don't know exactly. I mean, I didn't love college and I wasn't happy, but I definitely wasn't like, I'm leaving forever. It was very much like, oh, just take some time and sort of see. But then I was never like, oh, I want to reapply. Right. Yeah, I don't know. What was the real question?

1:10:48Graham Bensinger:Well, what did you decide to do? Oh, well, yeah, so I went climbing. You went climbing and then you just never came back.

1:10:54Alex Honnold:Yeah, yeah. Though it wasn't like I started on a big road trip because at the time, like, my world was a lot smaller, you know? Like, so I'd climb in Tahoe, I'd climb around Sacramento. But I wasn't like, oh, I'm just going to, like, set out for these far-flung places and just, like, road trip for months. Right. You know, which now I'm like, whatever. Now I consider the entire world, like, on inbounds, you know? I can go anywhere and just, like, hang out for a few months and it's fine. Right. But as a 19-year-old, you know, like in my mom's minivan, I was like, oh, you know, I'm going to go all the way to Joshua Tree.

1:11:20Alex Honnold:You know, it's like Southern California. It's like not really that big an adventure.

1:11:24Graham Bensinger:It must be so cool, though, and I'm sure you get this all the time. I mean, you can, because of your job, pick a place of the world and just go climb for a few months. No, I mean, it's awesome. What are the stresses and pressures of your job? Because everybody has them, you know, with whatever they do. but as an outsider looking in it yeah i mean i'd say my job is amazing but um i mean if i had to

1:11:51Alex Honnold:say like the most difficult aspect is just the constant travel you know like too much of a good thing in a way um just like not having the the stability the community you know like a home life not having like some kind of core like a base is like a little bit challenging um and then just being tired you know just like traveling too much and like being pooped because now you kind of have

1:12:12Graham Bensinger:to travel too.

1:12:13Alex Honnold:Yeah, and it's like work events, you know, I mean, being here at Banff and like, you know, like I think I'm speaking -

1:12:19Graham Bensinger:This is gorgeous, obviously. Yeah, no, this is like one of the most beautiful places on earth. But this is, you're in this all the time.

1:12:25Alex Honnold:Yeah, well, yeah, I am, I do definitely have like, I'm slightly jaded about like beautiful landscapes because I'm like always in beautiful landscapes. But yeah, and then just having to do, yeah, events and stuff all the time and like chat with folks. And this media BS stuff. Yeah, you know, media. Media.

1:12:41Graham Bensinger:So I know this is your favorite.

1:12:42Alex Honnold:No, I mean, that actually, I mean, I've gotten way better with, like, media and everything. Like, it used to be, like, a lot harder for me to, you know, do an interview or something. And now I'm just like, thank God I'm not actually working. You know, I'm just, like, stoked. Right. It's way cooler.

1:12:56Graham Bensinger:So I know this is your favorite topic to talk about, death. I've learned that from reading the profiles. Yeah, yeah. Let's go from family life to death.

1:13:04Alex Honnold:It's like this is my favorite type of chat.

1:13:06Graham Bensinger:You know, one of your close friends did tell me that probably half of your friends and family think you'll end up dying young. I don't know if that's true.

1:13:17Alex Honnold:You don't think that's true?

1:13:19Graham Bensinger:I don't think my family thinks so. You don't think so?

1:13:22Alex Honnold:I don't know. Well, maybe they all keep it. When I leave the room, they're all like, thank God he hasn't died yet. But I think it's pretty chill. I don't know. I just went to my cousin's birthday. You know, like a bunch of family all congregated and like, I mean, there was definitely no mention of any kind of climbing or related. I mean, it's just like chit-chatting.

1:13:38Graham Bensinger:Well, it's not like they're going to go up to you and be like, hey, Alex, you're probably going to die soon.

1:13:41Alex Honnold:Yeah, but nobody's ever, like none of the family's ever been like, we're worried about you or like, you know, this is, I don't know. But, I mean.

1:13:48Graham Bensinger:I think they're blissfully unaware. Or they are just obviously worried that they've come to understand you're doing what you love. Yeah, maybe. That's just, you know, they can't worry about whether or not something's going to go wrong.

1:14:05Alex Honnold:I honestly don't know if my friends are like that. I mean, a lot of my close climbing friends, like, have talked to me about, I mean, obviously we have a ton of conversations about risk-reward and, like, you know, what you're doing with your life and all those kinds of things. But not that many of my friends are honestly like, dude, I think you're going to die doing this. You've got to back off.

1:14:20Graham Bensinger:I mean, Tommy Caldwell has called free soloing reckless and stupid, and he said he doesn't want to see you die.

1:14:25Alex Honnold:No, he's been quoted in articles and interviews saying that. But I mean, obviously, like I've hiked with them for like hours and hours in and out of the mountains, you know, and we've talked about all this stuff extensively. And so, I mean, like selectively quoting, you know, like when he's chatting with me personally, he's not like what you're doing is reckless and stupid. And, you know, I mean, he definitely would never do that. And he does think it's irresponsible. But like, I don't know, that's a little too black and white.

1:14:51Graham Bensinger:To what extent have you ever considered the pain you'd cause friends or family if you died while climbing without a rope?

1:15:00Alex Honnold:Very little, which I don't know if that's supposed to make me feel bad or not. But honestly, I don't really. I mean, I worry about my own survival for myself, not for the pain that it would cause friends or family.

1:15:12Graham Bensinger:How do you view death?

1:15:14Alex Honnold:I guess that's heavy duty. I guess I view death as just, like, the natural end to every life. I mean, it's just something that we're all going to experience.

1:15:22Graham Bensinger:Well, I mean, I ask because Tommy Caldwell was in, again, you never know the context of this stuff, but was quoted as saying, most of us think dying is a really serious thing, but I don't think Alex does.

1:15:35Alex Honnold:No, I think it's the most serious thing. I mean, I think it's, like, I mean, I would say, like, actually, so I was, like, casually dating a nice girl earlier this year, and like she would get like worked up about a lot of things and like i get worked up about almost nothing and i kept saying that the only thing i get worked up about is like mortal peril like if there's actual risk of death you know like if you could die i mean that's the one thing that you should genuinely be super stressed about everything else is like losing possessions like wasting time like all those kinds of things you're like whatever not that significant okay but if you

1:16:06Graham Bensinger:might actually die like that's significant somebody watching this would say what do you mean i mean you're in those situations all the time we're talking about half dome and you know stepping like a rock where literally you thought there was a chance you might fall to your death. And so, I mean, I can understand why somebody watching this would say, what do you mean? How do you not think that in half the free solo climbs?

1:16:29Alex Honnold:Yeah, but so I think because of the stuff that I'm doing, because of the soloing, because of the climbing, I think that has given me this relationship with that. You know, like it's put everything in perspective where it's like death is the only thing that's like truly significant. Or maybe, I don't know, that sounds a little morbid. That's maybe not correct, because I'm sure at some point if I have a family or something, then I'll probably think that my family is as significant as...

1:16:52Graham Bensinger:How many top free soloists have there been over the past 50 years, and of those, how many have died?

1:16:58Alex Honnold:My favorite statistic is that no free soloist has ever died pushing the limits of soloing. No elite climber has ever died pushing soloing.

1:17:07Graham Bensinger:Yeah, but at least my understanding of it is oftentimes the free soloists die doing the free solo climbs. that aren't pushing the limit.

1:17:14Alex Honnold:A couple soloists have died on easy terrain. Well, two soloists have died on easy terrain. And then a handful of people who were known as soloists died in peripheral activities, like adventuring in the mountains or being swept out to sea. One of them was just taken by a rogue wave. But so people always quote, these five cutting-edge soloists have all died. And you're like, yeah, but most of them died in freak accidents. And the thing is, everybody dies from something. I mean, one of France's best soloists from the 80s recently died falling down a flight of stairs, which is just, you know, he was like an older guy and just whatever, he fell down and broke his whatever.

1:17:50Alex Honnold:Yeah, I mean, I just don't think it's fair to be like, elite soloist died and died falling. You know, you're like, yeah, come on, he's like a 55-year-old man on a staircase or whatever. It's crazy.

1:17:59Graham Bensinger:What injuries have you had climbing?

1:18:02Alex Honnold:I've only, well, so I've broken my arm like when I was a kid, falling off things three times. But that's just like as a kid falling down. and then I've just had overuse injuries like straining tendons or ligaments or you know yeah

1:18:15Graham Bensinger:I've never had any like real injuries yeah tell about the time you called your mom covered yeah

1:18:20Alex Honnold:so I had a snowshoeing accident where I fell off a mountain basically turns out snowshoeing is quite dangerous if you don't do it properly what do you remember from that I remember like so I mean I was like climbing up this icy cooler in snowshoes totally stupid I didn't know what I was doing And then I, like, turned around and basically, like, fell and slid down the thing. I remember, like, being sure that I was about to die because I was just sliding out of control down ice towards a bunch of rocks. And then I remember, like, waking up in the talus field, you know, like, in the boulders, like, covered in blood and super confused.

1:18:52Alex Honnold:And just, you know. I remember, like, I was wearing gloves and both my thumbs were gone and all the skin off both thumbs. It was, like, two little meat sticks, but my gloves were still on. I was just like, oh, my God. It's like a glove with a stick of meat. I was like, oh, from like sliding down ice, you know, like skinning both your thumbs off. Yeah. So you call your mom. Yeah. So it was the day after Christmas. I got on a cell phone for Christmas, my first one. And so I like called home while I was still in a total stupor. And I don't, I mean, I don't like personally remember any of this. I just remember the story.

1:19:20Alex Honnold:What she told you. Yeah. I mean, you know, I asked her like who I was or where I was or what I was doing or what was going on. And so she like passed the phone off to my sister and then she called 911 and then I got airlifted, you know, like an hour later or something.

1:19:33Graham Bensinger:What was the recovery like for that?

1:19:35Alex Honnold:I actually was relatively unscathed. I mean, so I'd punctured a bunch of stuff in my face and had a concussion, but didn't do any, like, spinal damage. I thought I broke my leg, but it turns out I hadn't. It was just like I just hit the rocks really hard. I broke my hand, which took quite a while. And actually, my one finger is slightly shorter now where the bone settled. Not really? Yeah. If you look at, like, this index finger is, like, slightly shorter than the other one. But not that it matters at all, you know.

1:20:00Graham Bensinger:So the most frightened I understand you've ever been climbing was just on a typical conventional rope climb. I think you were with your girlfriend at the time. Yeah, yeah, I've written that up. What about that was so scary?

1:20:13Alex Honnold:I mean, so that whole anecdote is like, so the thing is to really feel fear when you're climbing. I feel like you need like a long, drawn out, like mounting sense of dread. I mean, for me to really get like scared, scared, I need like a longer experience where you're like getting more and more scared over time. And so, like, when you're free-soling, normally, like, something happens and it's just, like, immediately over. And so you can just, like, recover from it quickly. But when I've been having, like, rope climbing experiences where I get, like, more and more scared over an hour, it starts to build to the point where you're like, oh, my God, I'm so scared.

1:20:43Alex Honnold:You know, I mean, that's like a good horror movie or something where you're, like, pretty sure it's all going to go bad.

1:20:47Graham Bensinger:Yeah.

1:20:47Alex Honnold:And also the thing with when you're climbing with a rope on, you're more willing to push yourself, like, further and further because you just keep thinking if I go a little more, I'll get some good piece of gear in. or, like, you know, you're willing to, like, push a little more because you have that safety. You have, like, more of a margin. But so it means that you can get yourself into these situations where, like, you would never get yourself free soloing. Because free soloing, you'd look at it and be like, oh, I want to know part of that. And you'd climb back down. Right. But with a rope, you're like, well, I'll just try a little bit and just see how it is.

1:21:11Alex Honnold:And then you start, you get into something and you're like, oh, I can't reverse that now. Because, you know, like, you do things when you're roped up that, like, you wouldn't do soloing. And so, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I've had a couple, like, pretty scary experiences with a rope on it. So what was the actual situation there? I mean, it's almost like too technical and long to describe properly. But it's like basically I just like climbed really, really far and I couldn't get any protection in. Any protection meaning you couldn't get the rope in it? I couldn't get gear into the rock. So I couldn't clip my rope to anything.

1:21:41Alex Honnold:So the thing is, I mean, even if you have a rope on, if you're like 100 feet above your last piece of gear, you're looking at taking a 200-foot fall. And so, I mean, it's like sweet you have a rope on, but you're still going to fall 200 feet. Like, that'd still be a disaster. I mean, you might be okay, but you might break both your legs and bleed out on the side of the wall or something. It was like, who knows? Yeah, so it was an experience like that where I thought I could go further, and then the rock got really bad, and I couldn't get any protection. And there were these big, loose blocks that looked like if I pulled on them, they might fall off and then chop my rope, which is another way you could die with a rope on.

1:22:13Alex Honnold:I don't know. It was just a long, drawn-out thing. And also, my topo was incorrect, like the little map I have that showed me where the route's supposed to go. Now it turns out it just was an error. So like what I was doing was quite a bit harder than I thought it was supposed to be. And so it was all just like, oh, my God, this is too hard. This feels wrong. Like everything's going bad. It's like scary.

1:22:31Graham Bensinger:So when you got down, you said even if for only a brief period, you actually considered giving up climbing.

1:22:38Alex Honnold:Yeah, when I topped out. So I got to the top of the spire and then I was belaying my ex-girlfriend up. And while I was sitting there, I was like, oh, my God, like I was so scared. You know, I was like, I don't want to climb anymore. Like this is terrible. But, you know, obviously it passed very quickly. How long did it last for? I don't know. I don't remember. It was a long time ago.

1:22:54Graham Bensinger:But I was very scared. How did your life change when you started to get a lot of attention? I don't know.

1:23:02Alex Honnold:I mean, I guess becoming more well-known has just made my life easier in terms of sponsorship and travel. And, like, it enables me to climb more and, like, climb in more remote places. And, you know, it's been pretty nice. How do you view fame? I view fame as like a means to an end. And the end is to be able to climb my whole life without having to work. And fame is like a very useful way to do that.

1:23:27Graham Bensinger:How do you view media and sponsors?

1:23:29Alex Honnold:I don't know. I mean, yeah, media and sponsors are all just like part of the whole game. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I love being able to go climbing all the time. And sponsorship and media and like, you know, making films and writing books and all those kinds of things all just sort of tie into like enabling this lifestyle. and to be able to share the lifestyle with people, which has never been, like, my goal, but it is nice to be able to, like, inspire other people and to, like, I mean, throughout my life, I've gotten a lot of inspiration from, like, seeing climbing films and, like, reading people's books and, like, reading climbing magazines and, like, you know, I've taken a lot from the climbing community and that's, like, really inspired me to, like, go out and push myself.

1:24:03Alex Honnold:And so it's nice to be able to contribute to that whole culture a little bit.

1:24:07Graham Bensinger:Generally, why do you think it's so difficult for most climbers to be able to earn a living from the sport?

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1:24:27Graham Bensinger:Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with EpGliss, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema.

1:24:36Alex Honnold:After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintained skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

1:24:47Graham Bensinger:EBCLIS, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.

1:25:28Alex Honnold:I mean, generally, climbing just isn't that big a sport, so there's not much money in it, so there's not that much to go around. I mean, it's hard to, like, make a living from sponsorship. But that's changing a little bit, though, because climbing's growing so quickly and gyms are taking off. And, like, I mean, the sport of climbing is wildly different now than it was 10 years ago.

1:25:47Graham Bensinger:What do you think has allowed it to become financially lucrative for you?

1:25:51Alex Honnold:I mean, financially lucrative might be overstating it because it's, like, you know, like the top climbers in the world are, like, getting paid less than a dentist. Right. I mean, I was going to say we featured Shaq, who's making$20 million a year.

1:26:01Graham Bensinger:So it is all relative. But, I mean, if you're...

1:26:04Alex Honnold:I mean, I read some stats about the NFL, and it was talking about, like, the base salary or something for, like... Basically, you can be the worst player in the entire league, and you're still making, like, easily twice as much as any of the climbers in the world. Yeah, but the difference is, too,

1:26:16Graham Bensinger:the average lifespan of somebody in the NFL is three, four years, and then most are broke within a couple years. Well, it's because they don't save properly.

1:26:25Alex Honnold:That's true. It's because they buy a tiger or whatever. Right. They have to feed it all the time. We've heard of Mike Tyson, too, before. Yeah, I know. I saw that.

1:26:32Graham Bensinger:I mean, it is obviously all relative, but making a couple hundred grand a year or whatever it is, I mean, that's a good living and definitely better than most of it's doing what you love. So, I mean, what do you think is allowed?

1:26:45Alex Honnold:I think I've been lucky with the sponsorship stuff because the type of climbing that I like doing the most, the soloing and everything, is also, like, the easiest to understand for a general audience. It's, like, the most visually appealing. You know, even though it's not nearly as difficult as something like the Dawn Wall, let's say. I mean, the Donwell's like way harder climbing, like physically harder. It's like more cutting edge. Could you do it? But no, I don't think so. I mean, maybe if I put seven years of work into it like Tommy, or maybe I'd only need three years of work since he's already done all the groundwork figuring it out.

1:27:13Alex Honnold:But like, I mean, that's good. Like, I don't want to spend three years working on that. That's crazy. But so like the things that I'm doing, you can just show like one image and you're like, that's amazing. That's so beautiful. That looks so cool. And so like, it's easy to, it's easy to sell, you know? Right.

1:27:29Graham Bensinger:What do you think is, if there's a cap on the most lucrative it could become for a climber annually, what do you think that is? I mean, currently, I don't know.

1:27:47Alex Honnold:The thing is, though, the cap is constantly changing because the industry is growing so much. I mean, there's talk of being like a demonstration or an exhibition sport in the 2020 Olympics at random. I mean, climbing is like definitely taking off quite a bit. So, I mean, the cap is constantly changing. But I think currently, like, I mean, if you're the most famous climber in the world, which a bunch of Euro guys who, like, do more speaking tours, I mean.

1:28:07Graham Bensinger:And it's more lucrative for some of the top European climbers, right?

1:28:11Alex Honnold:It might be in terms of speaking gigs and things. I think sponsorship-wise it's maybe similar. I'm not sure. I don't know the European scene as well. But I bet, like, maybe making half a million a year if you were, like, working all the time, like not climbing and you were just doing like corporate speaking and like pushing it super hard and like high levels of sponsorship and maybe.

1:28:33Graham Bensinger:But then how can you be a top climber? Exactly.

1:28:35Alex Honnold:That's the trade-off. And like that's what's so annoying about it is that like if you're trying to make a lot of money from it, then like you just can't be a good climber anymore. Right. Because I mean you have to be climbing all the time.

1:28:43Graham Bensinger:What do you, and you've been open about this before, what do you live off of annually now? And when you were living off the, you know, there was a point where you were living off very little and probably more now.

1:28:55Alex Honnold:Yeah, well, so no, it's been published that I was living off like a grand a month or less or something. I mean, when I first started traveling, it was probably less than that because it was just food and gas and I was like shopping at like Walmart and like terrible places, you know, just buying like the cheapest pasta. It's like, oh, 68 cents for dinner? That's perfect. You know, and now obviously I spend a lot more on food. But it's interesting because my expenses now just vary a lot more because in terms of like the food and gas money that I spend in a month, it probably still is like less than a grand.

1:29:25Alex Honnold:And then I spent a bunch of months where I'm like on a trip or like touring or something where I'm like taking care of the whole time. Like in South America the last month, I only opened my wallet like twice. You know, I basically spent like less than$100 in a month. But then I'm like, oh, I need a plane ticket and just like drop a grand to get home. You know, so it's like, my expenses now are like way more varied because like a lot more of my life is like covered through sponsorship and things. But then I also like bought my family's cabin this year, which is like a lot more than a grand. So yeah, it's just like a little more up and down.

1:29:58Graham Bensinger:When you did not have, or when you had very little money, what did that teach you about, you know, savings and all of that?

1:30:09Alex Honnold:I mean, the thing is, I've always lived the same way. Like I only buy things if I need them and I still just like don't spend money frivolously. I don't like, I don't have any things, you know? So, I don't know.

1:30:20Graham Bensinger:But the difference then versus now is you're able to have money to sort of plan for.

1:30:27Alex Honnold:Yeah, yeah. Now it's awesome to be able to, like, save money. And also I have a foundation now, and so I've been giving probably a third of my income to charity, like environmental nonprofits and stuff, which is pretty sweet to be able to, like, try to do something positive like that.

1:30:39Graham Bensinger:Which is pretty substantial, too, because, I mean, you do well, but a third of it's easier for a billionaire to get a third of their savings.

1:30:53Alex Honnold:Yeah, but my living expenses are still super low, and I'm saving enough that I feel comfortable with being okay. And, yeah, I feel like that's the appropriate level.

1:31:05Graham Bensinger:I'm gonna follow up on that but what are your long-term professional goals for rock climbing just in general I don't know I don't really am I even a

1:31:15Alex Honnold:professional I don't really have like professional yeah I don't know I mean so I have climbing goals I mean there are lots of things that I'd like to do climbing in my life but in terms of like being a professional like I don't know No. I mean, or how you see this evolving over the years, you know, whether it's continuing

1:31:35Graham Bensinger:to do this and get sponsored to climb or open climbing gyms or, you know, increase the speaking and, you know.

1:31:41Alex Honnold:I'm basically hoping to continue what I'm doing. Like, I'm very happy with what I'm doing right now and I'm hoping to continue that for like 10 or 15 more years and then sort of transition right into retirement, you know. Okay. Because I'm already like basically retired. I'm living a very retired lifestyle where I just kind of like hang out, I climb a lot, it's very relaxed. I'm hoping to just ease right into real retirement where I just climb all the time.

1:32:03Graham Bensinger:Tell about nearly getting robbed in Chad and then how that region played into you starting your foundation.

1:32:11Alex Honnold:These three kids came at us with little knives and tried to steal some of our things. But I thought of it more as punk skateboard type kids, just fronting. I didn't really feel threatened in the way. I was like, these kids are obviously not going to stab us. There were five of us, and we were, like, much bigger than them because they're probably, like, 14-year-old Chadian kids that are, like, living in the middle of the desert on, like, very restricted diet. You know what I mean? They're, like, small little guys with very little knives. I don't know. It didn't seem that dangerous. Thankfully, they didn't stab us.

1:32:42Alex Honnold:Right. Yeah, anyway. But so we had this crazy experience in Chad where, like, I mean, I went on an expedition to Chad in 2010, and it was my first time going to, like, the full, undeveloped. world. I mean, there were no roads, there was no infrastructure of any kind. Like, it was the type of trip where before we went, my mom was like, send a postcard. And then I got there and was like, not only do I not know how to buy a postcard, there's like no mail, like there's no roads, like there's no, like there's no services, you know, it's not, I was like, it changed what I, what I saw a country, you know, it was like, what is a country if it's just like a bunch of, I don't know, it's just like an arbitrary line on a map, you know, because then we were driving across the open desert and they're just like people on camels and like crazy little villages out and it all felt very like Stone Age.

1:33:25Alex Honnold:And I was like, wow, this is like a whole different, it was my first time seeing that like, I mean, there are, you know, over a billion people in the world like living in those kinds of situations. And I was like, wow, that's pretty, pretty crazy. Because like growing up in suburban California, you just like are not exposed to people, you know, who are living by like herding animals in the desert, like below the Sahara. It's like pretty full on.

1:33:45Graham Bensinger:And so how did that then motivate you to start a foundation?

1:33:49Alex Honnold:So Chad was like this whole crazy experience. And then over the next couple of years, I sort of, I was doing a lot of reading about like environmental issues and climate change and things like that. And I sort of started to feel like I needed to do something, you know, start some kind of foundation or like start donating money to charity. And then I felt like I should try to do it publicly just because like if I have anything, I have this public platform. You know, I felt like if I do it publicly, I can at least like hopefully inspire others to do the same or sort of leverage that a little bit.

1:34:17And so I started my foundation, and then rather than just supporting environmental issues,

1:34:23Alex Honnold:I felt like I should support environmental issues that also improve people's standard of living, you know, that, like, help people in poverty. And so I've been doing a lot of, like, solar lighting projects in Africa, things like that, where it, like, helps the environment in that they're not burning kerosene for light, but it also, like, really helps the actual people because, you know, it's, like, a huge health issue to be burning kerosene in confined space. Like, also, they save a ton of money. you know it's just that like basically people will never care about the environment if they're stuck in poverty so i mean you basically have to lift people out of poverty before they will care about like protecting the world around them and so that's what i've been trying to do through the foundation what would you like to see the foundation do long term um i don't i don't know i'm hoping the foundation just like does something positive in the world it's kind of like a five-year experiment okay and now i think we're three years in and um and this year we just did our first sort of like hands-on project in Angola where we like went in and like sort of set up this whole solar solar project and um which I think was like pretty successful and I'm pretty excited about we'll kind of see as we follow up to see exactly like how it all plays out but um I think we're hoping to do something slightly bigger next year also in Africa we'll just kind of see but I mean hopefully I can use the foundation to like leave a positive mark on the world thanks for listening

1:35:35Graham Bensinger:to my interview with Alex Honnold. To see video clips of our interview, plus Honnold attempting to teach me some climbing tips in BAMF, head to youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. And remember, if you get a chance, give us a rating and review. Thanks again for listening. Abercrombie's active brand, Your Personal Best, is built for every part of your workout routine. The YPB Neo Knit hoodies and sweatpants are soft, breathable, and moisture-wicking. Your perfect warm-up layers. And for leg day or any lifting day, pair YPB Motion Tech shorts with their active tees and tanks. Level up your workout routine with all new Active by Abercrombie.

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