Misty Copeland - Trailblazing Ballet Dancer

29:10That's so funny. I think that there's been a connection. Well, for me, connection to music my whole life, which is how I made that entry into dance. Yeah, I get that, but that wouldn't necessarily be somebody who's aware of Misty Copeland wouldn't necessarily expect to see you jamming out to them. Right, I know. But it's been like having a wide variety of music to be able to express yourself through. But I heard you go to that when injured or when time off. I think I love hip-hop and rap. And again, I listen to such a big variety of music. But I mean, there were times in my younger years, I remember just finding myself and listening to a lot of Eminem and kind of having that outlet.

30:01I don't know about angry, but there's just something that, you know, even if I'm preparing for like a Swan Lake, where people might assume that I'm listening to like Tchaikovsky or something before, and it's like whatever mood I'm in, there's a lot of like hip hop or like a lot of Drake, like before a Swan Lake performance that might get me like hyped up. But it's a range of music that allows for me to express myself and prepare to express myself on stage that just activates something. In contrast to what you'd listen to when your family was watching sports back in the day and you'd go into your bedroom, right?

30:41Mariah Carey. A big Mariah Carey fan. Huge, yeah, yeah. having that connection to someone who I felt I could relate to, you know, being a biracial girl, you know, not coming from a lot of instability like, you know, she did growing up. And I don't think I recognized until I was older, like, the power of representation. And that's what I was seeing when I looked at Mariah Carey and her success and, you know, being given an opportunity and reaching this this level of success. It was it was really impactful sports psychologist. What made you decide to go.

31:26I think that the conversations that I've had with my husband throughout the time I've known him it's it's. Not kind of pushing things under the rug and really facing fears you have, holes in, you know, your kind of belief in yourself or understanding of why things happen. And it got to a point where I started to have anxiety around performing. And I've just felt it was the smart thing to do, to speak to a professional and to get tools to how, you know, understanding how to deal with those things. And, um, which a lot of elite athletes. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've never, ever, ever had like the connection to the stage and performing and me, it was like the opposite of what a lot of people feel.

32:26Like there has never been stage fright. It's always been, um, a sense of comfort, like in this bubble where no one could touch me and I could just, uh, express myself through, through movement. But it got to a point where, you know, being put on this kind of trajectory to be the first and the pressures of this white ballet world that I felt never was going to accept me. It was like, no matter what I do on the stage, I'm not going to win everyone over. And that started to develop anxiety in me around my performances. Some would probably think that as you've had more success, the criticism or the noise would maybe go away.

33:11But for you, it got to you more, right? Yeah, you know, I think that it was like a combination of not only my success within the ballet community and the ballet world, but to go beyond it and to go outside of it, you know, with endorsement deals, you know, books, speaking engagements, you know, the ballet world's not used to seeing that. And, you know, it's like how, what is my commitment to this craft and the purity of what a typical principal dancer looks like. And it's like, I don't fit any of those molds. and the reason that I do have these opportunities outside of ballet or because of my career as a classical dancer, and I'm doing all of this to benefit, you know, to bring more people to ballet, to diversify it, and that's how you do it.

34:07You have to go outside of the small isolated bubble that the ballet world has existed in for forever. What did you learn from talking? Going. Yeah. You know, it's important, I think, for me to check in, like, daily, especially before performances, and get a sense of, like, why I'm feeling anxious. like getting to the root of what it is and then deciding how real it is. Is that something that's in my mind or how important it is that I need to give it that much focus? And what's an example of that? You know, I went through a period where I was anticipating who was going to be in the audience and what they were gonna say, like what blog they were gonna write.

35:05You know, literally like every step I was taking on the stage, it was like, is this right, is this good enough? I'm, you know, in the midst of preparing to do the 32 Fuetes, which is one of the most difficult technical feats in the classical technique and repertoire, and in the middle of preparing for this, I'm thinking about what some critic is gonna write and then completely losing my focus and not being able to physically accomplish what I needed to on the stage. Like that was beyond anything I'd ever experienced up until that point. And so to be able to step back and just be present and in the moment and stop getting ahead of myself.

35:49You wrote in your book when you were younger and growing up, I think I was born worried. There wasn't a day I didn't feel some kind of anxiety. My panic would begin from the moment I woke up. Yes. How so? Yeah, this fear of not knowing what was going to come day in and day out in my childhood, you know, whether it was my mom waking us up in the middle of the night and saying, like, we're leaving your dad, we're moving, and not knowing where we were going, not having a consistent place to stay or knowing if we were going to have food on the table. All of these things just created this severe anxiety inside of me.

36:27I would sometimes go to sleep with my school clothes on with this fear that like I wasn't gonna wake up and have enough time to get ready or I'd need to be at school an hour early and just like I needed a sense of control. And you would map the route out right before like a school year? I would rehearse going to school. I would have my mom take me to school and walk from classroom to classroom to make sure I knew where all the classrooms were gonna be, how much time it was gonna take me to get from one place to the other. It was really just this young, insecure girl looking for control in some way because I didn't have any control over anything that was happening in my life.

37:11And it's a scary feeling. Also being a middle child. There was just so much chaos and I didn't really have anything that allowed me to find who I wanted to be until I started dancing. You wrote, for a little girl who lived in terror of making a mistake, of being embarrassed or criticized in front of others, the stage was somehow an oasis. What made it that for you? When you look out into the audience, you can't see anyone's faces. It's just a sea of darkness, of black. But you feel the energy. So there is something so safe to me about like not seeing people's like reactions, but just feeling the love, like whether it was the applause or just an energy you literally feel from the audience, from a group of people being in the room.

38:03And then, you know, the fact that no one could say anything to me, like there, you know, it was like I was just up there and no one could do or say anything, whether that was, you get coached and you train, and you have the coaches or ballet masters and mistresses that are saying stuff to you while you're dancing and yelling out things, or there's constant feedback. But when you get on stage, it all goes away, and you're responsible for yourself. And there's something so empowering about that, to be able to be responsible, be in control, and do something I love. Being able to express myself through non-verbal art form, it was the perfect fit for me.

38:47How did a lifetime movie impact you when you were seven? My mother grew up dancing. She was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team. My sister was on the drill team at the middle school. So I had a connection to movement, but I didn't really understand what that looked like and what it was I was drawn to. but I was attracted to gymnastics. So whenever the Olympics would come on TV, I was watching floor exercises. And then this Lifetime movie came on about Nadia Comaneci, who was the first to score a perfect 10. And there was something about her story that was so incredible to me, to see these amazing ups and downs, but this connection that she always had to gymnastics.

39:35But looking back, the floor exercises, the way they move, it was so similar to classical dance. Though I'd never seen classical dance, but I was drawn to that. And that just kind of like opened up my mind to what was possible. I heard you sat for a week observing class before. Might have been more than that, but yeah. Okay, before you first participated in it. And then you're at Boys and Girls Club. And you quit after your first class, or think about quitting. Yeah. I had just gotten on the drill team. This was like the biggest thing I'd ever done in my life to decide I wanted to be on this dance team where you were putting yourself out there in front of people performing.

40:17And then I not only auditioned for the drill team, I auditioned for the captain of the drill team and made it and was named captain. So I finally found something that was just enough outside of my comfort zone. So then when I was asked to take this free ballet class from the Jilton coach, she thought I had a lot of potential. It was like, are you kidding me? Like this is so far outside of my comfort zone. And the teacher, Cynthia Bradley at the time, you know, she just kept pushing me, you know, she was like, it's okay that you don't have the right attire. That was another thing too. It's like not fitting in, not having a leotard and tights and slippers and being on a basketball court.

40:56I was like, this just all feels wrong. So I sat in the bleachers for weeks, and every class, you know, Cynthia would come over and just say, like, just come down one more seat on the bleachers, and just get closer and closer, and it was scary. It took going to her ballet school, where she gave me a full scholarship. And once I was in the studio, was in the proper attire, was surrounded by other dancers, and I was looking in the mirror and I felt beautiful and I felt in control, that's when it all clicked and changed. And the rest, I guess, is kind of history, but you were quickly viewed as a prodigy, but you started late.

41:42And because you started late, there were steps or productions that you were unfamiliar with. How would that come out in you? You know, even up until I had been a professional for like five years, I was still like finding holes in my technique, in my knowledge of classical dance and the repertoire. And it's there's no shortcuts. There's no shortcuts in dance. I think that there's always time to catch up, but it's not something that you can get done quickly. It's going to take years. So starting at 13 years old, four years later, I was already a professional. And there were still, yeah, there was still vocabulary I didn't know.

42:31I mean, it's a new language. It's all in French. It's literally a new language you're speaking. And I remember still learning to do steps when I was already dancing at the Metropolitan Opera House with American Ballet Theater. And I believe at various points in your life, your peers have been resentful that you'd get opportunities that may not be afforded to them. Tell about this book that you wrote in China while you were like over there. Did Layla tell you about this?

43:08I don't even know if I remember the details of it. I heard it was sitting on your bookshelf for a long time at your old apartment. I don't even know if I remember. I mean, I was all about documenting. You guys were getting beaten up on by the other dancers. We documented everything that happened with us. My best friend, Layla, we definitely found commonality in being different. Who's now your partner with your production company. But, you know, both of us not coming from backgrounds where we had family members or people who understood the classical ballet world and, you know, Leila's first generation, you know, American and being Lebanese, Cuban and Persian and me, you know, being black and white.

43:55And we just had this connection and bonded and I'm so happy that I had her. But yes, our first tour with American Ballet Theatre to China, we definitely, you know, I think it was just a part of the like hazing, but we definitely were bullied and made fun of. I remember being told by a dancer, a male dancer in the company, like just being made fun of because everything, again, like it's this, it all comes back to like this idea of like needing control over everything. And I would come to class every day like impeccable, Like, my hair, there wasn't a hair out of place. It was, like, pulled back so tight.

44:37You know, everything that I wore, I was never that dancer that had on the, like, holy leg warmers and the shirt hanging off my shoulder. Like, that wasn't me. And, you know, I was called a bunhead, which, as a young person, that's, like, you're a part of this, like, cool squad. And you're one of the kids that, you know, is walking around with their feet turned out and the bun in their head. But once you become, you know, a professional adult, it's like calling someone a nerd or, you know. And I remember being called a bunhead over and over again and people coming up to me and pretending to spray shellac on my hair because it looked so hard and pulled back with hairspray.

45:15And not knowing the protocol and what it is to be in a professional company where as a young person, you have to wait until everyone in the company finds their place at the bar for you to find a place. So sometimes, you know, a principal dancer may come in 10 minutes late and you have to give up your spot at the bar and you're holding on to like the edge of a chair. Like it's just, it's pretty ridiculous, you know. But it got to you guys then, especially. Yeah, yeah. And we were apprentices in the company. So we were like the lowest on the totem pole and like, and treated accordingly. So it was, it was a lot.

45:51I'm just glad that I had, I had Layla in that time to go through it with me. I was trying to come up with some stuff you haven't been asked about. I know that threw me. I was like, what? Your mom. Yeah. You said her childhood was kind of filled with pain. Yeah. In what ways? My mother's adopted. She never knew who her, you know, really where she came from. She was raised by two older parents that died when she was pretty young and raised by her adopted cousins and aunts. I think never really having a true connection to any group of people, like never really having a family. Her mother was an alcoholic.

46:41She dealt with, you know, she was married very young and he was murdered. And there was just a lot of searching for family. And I think she created that by having six children, you know, made a family for herself. But there was a lot of abuse and instability and movement in her life and then eventually in ours. You think that upbringing impacted her how? Well, I think that she was just, like I was saying, just like constantly searching for for a sense of family and consistency and love. And I think that's why she married so many times. And it's just always searching for what she didn't have growing up.

47:33And I guess creating that on her own by having all of us. And you said you always loved her, but you didn't really understand her. Yeah, I think that as an adult, like it's easier to look back and say something like that. Right. Because, you know, I think it's understanding like who you are first. And I don't think she ever did that. And I think that it's, you know, before having a family. And I don't think she had the liberty to, you know. I think that as a young person without a support structure or system around her, she was just kind of trying to do all of this on her own. I didn't always understand the constant moving ahead rather than stopping standing still and examining oneself.

48:27When you have stability and you have a support system around you, it's easier to say that and be able to look at yourself, which I have as an adult. Explain what would happen where she would fear for her life and essentially you guys would have to immediately pack up and move on. It happened many times and we'd never know when it was going to happen. But yeah, whether it was, you know, physical abuse in the house, which happened on many occasions with different husbands. And you would witness that? Yes, witness it. A lot of verbal and emotional abuse as well. And I remember very vividly, you know, being like in the middle of the night or something and someone coming and a car pulling up and all of us just taking what we could and just jumping in the car.

49:15and out of fear of our lives, just not being in a safe situation and having to kind of go hide out for a little while in other people's homes and sleep on the floor, staying in motels and just a lot of chaos in that way. One time, I believe you heard gunshot and then a thud. must have been 14 years old, and we were staying at, we would call them aunt and uncle, but they were not related to us, friends of my mom's from somewhere. And they lived in downtown LA, and we were sleeping, all of us kids were sleeping in their living room on the floor, and it just was not a safe area. And there was a drive-by shooting, and I ended up with this guy bleeding on our porch and trying to help him, and just things I shouldn't have seen.

50:14You know, there were guns in the house. I remember my brother, you know, finding one and pointing it at me. And just the thought of, like, just no security. I felt that a lot as a child. And that was, you know, just added to the anxiety that I had. What was kind of the hardest part of life when your mom applied for food stamps? It was around 12 or 13 years old. and that was at our lowest point, you know, on food stamps, not having a home. Like from day to day, it was like, are we going to have enough money to pay this week, weekly rent at a motel? You know, but it was also just like this shame and this sense of like having a secret for most of my childhood.

51:03So I never had close friends. My siblings are my best friends. And, you know, it was just this fear of people finding out and judging. And so I just kind of kept everyone at a distance. The shame being the circumstances? My circumstances. The shame being that I didn't have a home, that we didn't have food, that we were on food stamps, that we lived... We didn't even live in San Pesja where I was going to school. We lived far away, had to take, you know, a public bus. All of these things that just be, you know, it's just not a good feeling to have, like, secrets like that. And, you know, even when I started training with Cynthia, she didn't even know the extent of my home circumstances and wouldn't find out until I actually told her I had to quit dancing and she drove me home and saw that I was living in a motel.

51:53And that was when she invited me to live with her. Before she found that out, just to give her context, how did she really build your self-confidence? When I met Cindy, I'd never met someone who was so free in her body, in herself, and open and accepting of me. I never felt judged by her. She was just a support, a friend, a mentor, all of these things to me. and a ballet teacher that was just so open to giving as much of herself to me to get me to where I needed to be professionally. It didn't, I mean, she make you feel like beautiful and that you'd be performing for kings and queens and like all this stuff like kind of zeroed in in terms of her focus on you in a way that.

52:51I'd never had. Yeah. Yeah. Being one of six children, there's not a lot of focus individually that I experienced. And she definitely gave me that in a way I'd never had, but also had these grand predictions of what my life and career would be like. Of course, you know, I think at the time, I just thought she was a little quirky and I was like, oh, that's cool that she's saying all of that, but I don't know how realistic it is. But to have someone that had that much belief in you was something I needed. And so your mom kind of says, look, because of how far away ballet is, it just is going to have to stop.

53:32Take me to the conversation that Cindy had with your mom at the motel and what you remember from that. Yeah, I remember just being this ball of tension on the way home, just waiting for that moment. We turned into the Sunset Inn, and Cindy realized that's where I was living. And so as soon as we got, we turned into the parking lot, I ran out of the car, like I didn't even say bye. It was just like, I'm so mortified. I'm never gonna see this woman again, but I'm so mortified and I just want to go inside and like bury myself. And what was it about that place that made you feel that way? I mean, what child is, you know, wants to show that they're living in this dingy old motel like off the side of the highway, you know, all living in one room.

54:19and it was embarrassing, it was embarrassing. And I don't recall what I had told her up until that point. I don't know if I had lied to her and told her we were living in an apartment or what it was, but she had no idea. So I went upstairs and kind of just went back into my shell, like the person I was before dance. I sat in the corner and was just like zoned out and a couple of minutes later, there was a knock at the door and Cindy had turned around. She had left and was just kind of in shock with what she just witnessed and then decided to turn back around. And she spoke with my mom for a while.

54:55And my mom turned to me and said, Cindy asked if you would want to go and live with her so you can continue training. And it was shocking. And I was like, yes. No, really not a doubt in your mind? Not at all. It was like the thought of not dancing again. It was like this hole already. and what my life would be, I'd become so attached to it and it started to develop as a person in ways I never had before. I was actually stunned that my mom let me go. So I took the few clothes I had and put in my book bag and left. As a kid, when there's that transition, one would think it would be really traumatic, but I believe that was the first transition you had that was not.

55:46Yeah, it was the most loving, supportive, warm environment. Like from the moment I stepped into their house for the first time, again, I just feel like I spent so much of my life feeling judged and or waiting for judgment to come. And I never, ever felt that in their house. They made me feel like I was a part of the family always. There was a lot of protection, you know, when it came to what I'd experienced, there was a lot of trauma. I mean, even when I turned 16, it was towards the end of the time that I was training with Cindy and was living with her family. And there was a big court case that ended up ensuing and my mom was trying to get a restraining order against the Bradleys.

56:38I was starting the process of getting emancipated. So it blew up into something bigger than I ever imagined. It became a national story on talk shows, and it was really traumatic. And so it was around that time, my 16th birthday, and I think that everyone was doing their best to protect me and to not talk about things that were happening in my life that would kind of bring up that trauma again. And it was, you know, I was a really fragile girl at the time. And so many, you know, I would get these severe migraines throughout my childhood. Which you don't have anymore. I don't have anymore. Because you were concerned that it would, like, could flare up when you got to New York and prevent you from competing.

57:29There was this fear of, you know, I would get these migraines and I would literally be bedridden for a night throwing up. And I just couldn't be in light. and the thought of going and becoming a professional and having that, you know, like, what if this happens? I can't just not go on stage. And, you know, but so much of the stress, it was all connected to the stress I had as a child. And, you know, on my 16th birthday, it flared up and we were, I had a couple of parties, but there was one at the new ballet school that I was attending and, you know, and everyone kind of, they didn't know me, but they all came together to welcome me in this place and they knew what I had been through.

58:12It was all over every paper and all over TV. And I ended up in the back room with a severe migraine, sleeping in the dark while everyone was out there eating cake and celebrating my birthday. What's your opinion now on what transpired during that period with the emancipation and court case and all of that? I don't know. I feel like things happened so quickly and there wasn't a lot of time spent thinking about what the repercussions could be on me. And, you know, if things didn't go smoothly, which they didn't, I think that it was just kind of a panic to keep me training, you know, a fear of if I went back home and stayed with my mom, who knows what would have happened with me in my career in those environments, and how would I continue my training?

59:10And so I think it was just a panic from the Bradleys, from me. And then I understand why my mother would react that way. I can't imagine being a mother now, being in a situation where you felt like you didn't have control over your own child. Because your mom essentially said, need to come home. Yes. And then Cindy picks you up one morning and says, not taking you to school. You're going home. Yeah. It's, yeah, it was a complicated, complicated time. And I eventually ended up back home with my mom. And she eventually got an apartment in San Pedro. And I continued to train at another school. It took me like a decade just to be able to say the words and revisit that time without getting so emotional.

1:00:06But yeah, I've had 20 plus years to heal and also recognize that it's not my fault. I think when I first was coming out of that situation that I felt a lot of guilt, you know, whether it was, you know, that I put my family through that, you know, that we were all kind of exposed in a way. You felt guilt. Yeah. That it was like this situation with me that made this happen. And my siblings were kind of brought into it. And everyone knew about our home situation, like the secret that we all had. So it took time for me to recognize that it wasn't my fault, that I was a child. And, you know, just trying to maintain good relationships with everyone.

1:01:02I was going to say, how has time impacted your relationship with them? I had great relationships with everyone, which is incredible. So your dad, you wake up, you know, one day, I don't think you'd seen him since you were two years old, and decide you want to reconnect. What made you make that decision? I think it was getting to a place in my young adult life, you know, as a professional, as an artist, and wanting to understand, like, who I am. And I think that it took, like, looking back and connecting with my father to really understand that and become, like, the person and the artist that I wanted to become.

1:01:45My oldest brother, Doug Jr., he was when he reached out first and found him in Wisconsin. And I think it was maybe a year later that I called my brother and I said, like, I'm ready. Like, I want to meet him. So it was a beautiful, you know, reunion, I guess. And me and my brother, Doug, we both resemble him so much. So like the three of us, I felt like we're connected in a different way. Because you'd never even seen a photo, right? I'd seen very few, but it was like looking at my brother. It was mind-blowing. And did the interest first start in your journal before actually reaching out? I was journaling.

1:02:33I mean, that's something I had done since I was very young. And I think as someone who didn't verbally express herself, that was my way of doing it. And so there was, yes, a lot of journaling about, you know, what that would look like in the anticipation and who we might be. And it's such a, it was very fascinating. How did the process of reconnecting compare to what you would have thought? You know, you imagine it's going to be like this lifetime movie, I guess. And then I was going to have this like emotional kind of outburst. but it wasn't. It was meeting a stranger, ultimately. And it took time to build an emotional bond and connection with him.

1:03:19But I would never take back going through that and eventually meeting him. All right, I want to completely switch gears here now that I've grilled you about family life. I actually wanted to talk about Prince. What happens where one day somebody asks for your number and then that afternoon he's on the phone? Yeah, it's pretty surreal. You know, it's I just there's so many things in my life that happened that I'm just like it's so crazy that it's like it was meant to be. I was at a point in my career. I had been a soloist for a couple of years and I was kind of a standstill. You know, even thinking about my promotion when Kevin McKenzie promoted me to soloist, there wasn't From my memory, there wasn't this like huge excitement.

1:04:10It wasn't like, it was kind of like, I'm giving you this opportunity. Like, you know, it's time for you to step up and take it. But I didn't feel like a real sense of support. Like, I believe in you and we're doing this. So, you know, from the time I became a soloist, it was kind of like shaky. And I kind of felt on my own and trying to figure out what my future looked like and whether or not I really belonged in this world as a black dancer. Really? Yeah, even up until that point of being, I was only the second African-American female soloist to be promoted to that position in the company's history, but it still just felt, I just didn't feel like a big sense of guidance in what it meant to be a soloist and work towards being a principal dancer.

1:05:00and then I got a call from someone asking if Prince could have my number. And none of it made sense to me. I was shocked and I said okay. And I remember him calling while I was in the middle of a ballet class and I knew he was gonna be calling and so like elusive, I had no idea when, like what that looked like so I stepped out of class. I was gonna say presumably that's one you step out for. Gilda, that was okay. I was like, I'll be back. And I stepped out and I took the call from him. And he pretty much said, I've been looking for you for over a year. And I haven't been able to get in contact with you, which I was like, that's crazy.

1:05:43But he had remade the song Crimson and Clover. And he just had, you know, when he has his mind set on something, like he is going to do it. and he envisioned me dancing in this video. And he ended up shooting the video with another dancer and just thinking like, this isn't it. This isn't what I had envisioned. So finally connected and within a couple of days, I was in LA improvising on the set. And that was the start of this beautiful friendship that brought me to a better place of understanding like what I wanted out of my career, which is why I was saying like the time, you know, the timing was just so perfect.

1:06:27I ended up touring with him all over the world and having that experience of, you know, someone that was such a creative genius that believed in me and was pushing me to explore my dance in a different way, it just, it allowed me to become the artist that I am today. And the touring started in Europe and then it came stateside. Yes. Tell about those rehearsals at the ISAD in New Jersey. Yeah, it was an interesting time. You know, Prince was great that he understood that ABT and my career as a ballerina, like that's my career. And it's amazing to have the opportunity to do these performances outside of ABT and and also expose his audience to classical dance, maybe who didn't have interest or would never step into the Metropolitan Opera House.

1:07:26But I was in the midst of rehearsing for the Nutcracker, for ABT, when his performances were also going on in Jersey. Talk about a grueling schedule. It was unbelievable. I would finish rehearsing at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center, and we'd finish like around nine or 10 and then Prince would pick me up in a limo and we'd drive to the IZ, or wherever we were, was it the IZ in New Jersey?

1:07:57And rehearse all night there for his shows and then wake up in the morning and have my full day with ABT. You know, I was young and these were sacrifices that I wanted to make because I could see the bigger picture. And it's Prince. And it's Prince. And it was an incredible experience. you know, performing at Madison Square Garden. What was it about that moment at MSG? Hmm.

1:08:22There was an energy and a connection with another artist on stage that I'd never experienced before. You know, someone, again, of like his musical genius, and, you know, he would do things in rehearsals that, you know, he wouldn't do them in rehearsal, and then he would become this other person on stage that was unbelievable to see this person like blossom into this magnetic thing on stage and to be a part of that and to have him, you know, the first time that I came onto the stage for my solo and he introduced me, Misty Copeland, like to his audience was just shocking. You know, I wasn't just a backup dancer for him.

1:09:09You know, it was a collaborative effort, and it really... You're thinking what in that moment? It shocked me. I, like, jumped out of my skin, and I had to, like, get back in my skin to finish performing because I wasn't expecting for that type of acknowledgement or respect or introduction, and it was a beautiful moment. And the impact he had on your self-confidence and understanding your self-worth was what? To have another artist, again, of his caliber kind of say to me, to acknowledge the power in being unique, which is like the opposite of what we're told in ballet. You know, it's like everyone's trying so hard to fit into this cookie-cutter mold of what, you know, generations and generations of dancers have looked like, and trying to be that, and everyone trying to look the same and be this kind of uniform thing, especially as a corps de ballet dancer.

1:10:14And Prince was like, this is amazing. It's amazing. You're the only black woman in the company. Do you know what power that you have by standing out and being different and being unique? And I never looked at myself that way. And as she, I just, he gave me a sense of, yeah, confidence and empowerment that I'd never recognized before. There was a New York Times article titled, Where Are All the Black Swans? And you said that it was the first article you ever read reflecting the heartbreak and the loneliness that you felt. How so? There is a black ballet community out there. You know, I think that it was during that time that it was a little more, you know, Dance Theater of Harlem was not operating.

1:11:07They were on a seven-year hiatus. The black dance community, ballet community, was not as strong as it had been, and I felt like I didn't have a lot of that. I couldn't go to Dance Feet of Harlem and look at dancers that looked like me. There just wasn't that same community that was intact. and you know when this article came out I felt like it was the first time I was experiencing acknowledgement outside of the black dance community that this was an issue to have it be recognized in such a concrete way it just like opened the floodgates of all the things I've been like you know that I have Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney Plus let's go get ready for a new case we're Now crack this case and prove we're good.

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1:12:46Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm.com. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. I have to hold inside in order to keep it together every day and not be realistic maybe and think like what will ever come of my career? Is this a reality for me? Instead, it was like convincing myself day in and day out that like this, yes, I can do this. I can maybe break a glass ceiling. And then this article came out and it was just like, I don't know that it's ever going to happen for me. Why am I any more special than any black dancer that's come before me to be able to push through and become a principal dancer?

1:13:28And then it was somebody you were friends with in the company whose reaction really had kind of a negative impact on you. Who didn't intend it that way probably. No, not at all. to have someone who doesn't maybe understand the pain and the realities around all the roadblocks for black dancers, you know, to read that article and think it was silly or that it maybe wasn't accurate or true was devastating. And it just kind of was a reflection of what I felt everyone at ABT he was probably thinking, or everyone in the dance world that didn't understand our history as black dancers in the ballet world, the importance of our impact, and the fact that we're not given the same opportunities or access to be a part of this world.

1:14:29And that's a big problem.

1:14:34Cindy once told you something about why a company rejected you, and it was important to you to save that letter for what purpose?

1:14:48It was very interesting at a time when, you know, I was auditioning for summer intensive programs. I think I was like 14 years old. And I mean, I did not have a lot of training under my belt. I had like a year, year and a half of ballet training under my belt. But every single school that I auditioned for, I was given a full scholarship to, except for one school. I wasn't even accepted. Here in New York. Yes. And, you know, a lot of these schools and companies have reputations for not being inclusive and not being diverse. and she just felt that it was important for me to remember and acknowledge that this had a lot to do with my race.

1:15:39But something to look back on and feel empowered in the future, which I do now. And also recognizing just the work that needs to be done, the work that needs to be done internally internally within the in the ballet community, which is what that I think that a lot of it's happening right now. You know, within the pandemic, I've seen a big shift. But I think in order for us to rebuild and and do the work we need to see we need to be exposed. And I think that the ballet world comfortably has been able to live in this very white bubble and there's no repercussions for their lack of support, acceptance, inclusion, and I think we're at a point where people are speaking out and beyond me, and it shouldn't solely be coming from my voice.

1:16:42It should be a collective conversation that not just black dancers are having, but dancers, period. The lack of diversity, the racism that still exists, even if it's these microaggressions, having dancers of color not be allowed to wear tights that are their skin color, that they're being forced, in order to fit into a company environment, you have to wear pink tights and pink ballet slippers, representative of a white person's skin, or you don't have the right hair texture to put into these hairstyles, So therefore, you know, we're not gonna accept you in this company. You know, things like that that have gone on for far too long and need to be addressed and changed.

1:17:29There was a situation where you were playing a part in, I believe, Sleeping Beauty. Yeah. And the makeup person's coming over with white powder. Right. What was it about that that made you decide to finally kind of take a stand? I think it was, you know, coming to a place where I felt comfortable, starting to feel comfortable in my skin and with who I wanted to be, especially when you're on stage and you're, you know, a role model and you're, you know, all these young kids in general, black and brown kids looking at you, and they should be able to tell that you're black when you're on stage. And it just, I just hit my limit, I guess.

1:18:13And I turned to the makeup artist and I said, why do I have to be a white cat? You know, I was playing the role of Puss in Boots in Sleeping Beauty. And she just kind of looked at me and she was like, I guess you don't. And so we made myself a brown cat. And it was a small, like kind of silly step, but it wasn't. But it wasn't really small. It wasn't. And, you know, these are conversations that I've continued to have throughout my career, where we're really kind of dissecting or, like, understanding, deciphering, you know, what these things mean. Like, you know, when you play a role as, like, a Willie in Giselle or a Swan in Swan Lake, why do we have to paint our skin white?

1:19:00I understand the idea of wanting to take away the shine so that you look otherworldly or like an animal or whatever it is, but that doesn't mean you have to be white. So I've had these conversations and small adjustments are made, but there are ongoing conversations that are still happening today. When the dance theater of Harlem was first pursuing you, what was it about thinking about your mom that made you decide to stick with your trajectory? Yeah, you know, the thought of watching this, you know, this pattern from my mother of running away and starting a new situation that ended up with the same issues because they were never dealt with.

1:19:45There was something about that that was triggered in me when I thought about leaving ABT and going to Dance Theater of Harlem. You know, am I just running away so that things are gonna be easier for me because I'm surrounded by other black dancers? Or do I stay and really get to the root of the issue? How do we make changes, systemic changes in the classical ballet world where a black dancer can be in a white majority company? The impact that you'd like your success to have had on people of color would be what? I think that, you know, within our history in America, I think often black people, black women are kind of pinned against each other.

1:20:32And we're in situations where there's one opening, one position for a dancer of color in a company. And it just doesn't create an environment that, you know, for us to support one another. And I think that we're at a place where we have to like really come together and, you know, have the same mission in mind. And for me, I'm always thinking about opportunities for black dancers, using my voice and my platform to call out companies that aren't, you know, taking these things into account and that should be. But I think it's important that we create a different system in that the next generation of black and brown dancers feel a supportive environment around them coming into this space.

1:21:23And in the remaining couple minutes we have, you know, as you look to the next chapter for yourself, there are all these kind of extensions of you that you're creating to help in progressing that, whether the foundation or production company, et cetera. On the foundation front, what are your goals with that? Yeah. My intentions with creating a foundation are, like you were saying, everything that I'm a part of, it's all connected to dance, and all with the same mission and goal in mind. It's to bring more diversity and equity to ballet. It's to expose people, expose young people that don't have the means to be a part of it, don't have the access, don't have maybe the support or their families or caretakers who ever don't have an understanding of this world, but that it can be an outlet.

1:22:19It can be a way of developing tools and becoming better citizens in society and their communities, bringing people together, that dance is, should be a part of everyone's lives. And I think there's something particularly incredible about ballet, and it just hasn't been something that's been open to all communities. And so, you know, through the foundation, it's, you know, social justice through dance. And to be able to create our first program, the Be Bold program, which stands for Ballet Explorations. Ballet offers leadership development. To have that, our first kind of run of the program be at a Boys and Girls Club, at five Boys and Girls Clubs in the Bronx, a free ballet class in that after school period, such a vital time for children.

1:23:12It's like a full circle moment. And then with the production company, I was talking to Layla yesterday. First, it's amazing some of the people that have had ballet in their lives. Let me see, Billie Eilish, Penelope Cruz, Charlize Theron, Rahm Emanuel, among others. But you're trying to accomplish what with kind of the media extension? I mean, we were talking earlier just about the opportunity to bring dance to more people. The reach you have through film and television or on social media, but this visual art form that you shouldn't just have to be in a theater to experience that. And to be able to tell stories of artists that we should know about and we don't, that was one thing that we were really looking to do, to give opportunity to dancers.

1:24:15Why do we make dance films and tell stories and not use real dancers. You know, it's a real missed opportunity. But just to give, to show more people, to expose more people to dance, and for me, ballet in particular. And lastly, if you view your life in kind of decade chunks, you know, life's changed a lot for you over the past 10 years. You go 10 years before that. You know, it's obviously changed a lot. 10 years from now, where would you like to see yourself? You know, to continue on with the same mission, with everything that I'm a part of, you know, whether it's Life in Motion Productions, whether it's the books, you know, it's amazing to be at a place as an entrepreneur and to be a founder in Greatness Wins and, you know, this athletic wear brand with other athletes who understand, you know, you know, to have been in similar positions and, you know, it's all kind of aligned with

1:25:30exposing, you know, bringing more exposure of, you know, dance to more people, showing that dancers are athletes and deserve to be in a position of getting endorsement deals and the respect. I'll forever be a part of dance and bringing it to different communities. But, you know, I think just showing the power and beauty of dance and how it can heal people and bring people together. I should ask, too, the motivation behind writing the eighth book. Yeah, the motivation behind, yes, my eighth book. Which is remarkable. I know. It's crazy. And how you even have the time. I don't know. I don't know how.

1:26:17But the wind at my back, it was really, you know, the relationship with my mentor, Raven Wilkinson, who was the first black ballerina in a major ballet company, the Ballet Russo Mentecarlo, in the 1950s, getting to know her, finding out she lives a block away from me. I don't know how many years ago that was now when we met for the first time, but having her come into my life and show me what it really means to to have passion and perseverance and want to stay connected to this art form, even with all the extreme hate she experienced, being chased out of her company by the KKK, her life being threatened, her career being cut short in America.

1:27:03But to get to know her and to develop this relationship and her giving me a renewed sense of purpose in my career. So this is the story, it's her story, it's my story and how they kind of collide. And I don't think I'd be in this position and be a principal dancer, be the person I am without that relationship in my life. And you can find out how your husband proposed too. Yes. Thank you very much for doing this. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure. Thanks for listening to my chat with Misty Copeland to see more of our time together, including our visit to a Be Bold class and her attempt to teach me how to plie.

1:27:42Go to youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger As always, before you go, please leave us a rating and review. Thanks again for listening.

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