The Reason Why Trump Keeps Getting Worse: Wolff

0:00This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify. They have not at any point of the Trump grift, which is now 10 years running, getting worse and worse and worse and more lucrative and more lucrative for him. And we are inured, I think. If you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the grift because they go part and parcel with the man.

0:47He's a businessman. Of course, he's going to take take advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. Remember, the other thing about Donald Trump, extraordinary thing, is he's transparent. Because he says people don't care. I deserve it. But it would be interesting to know if we get it right. He has specifically said that no one cares. How do we call the country to moral attention? We don't know how to do that.

1:12Michael. Joanna. For those of you who haven't watched this podcast before, I'm Joanna Coles. Of the Daily Beast. And I'm Michael Wolff, not of the Daily Beast. Well, you're sort of of the Daily Beast. A visitor to the Daily Beast. A partner of the Daily Beast. A partner. Author of four books on Donald Trump. And other books on other people. Yeah, but nobody as interesting as Donald Trump. We have so much to get to. Graham Plattner, Belgium. Overturn this. What a great troll. We've got the president on Usha Vance's podcast. I will be doing a deep textual analysis of that conversation. So we should just, for new people joining the podcast, we should just take 30 seconds to A, ask them to subscribe, and B, explain what we're doing here.

2:08we are doing something that i think think virtually no one else does because no one else has for the 10 years people like me and joanna and and the media everywhere has been covering donald trump it is from the outside looking in here's a guy why does he do what he does aghast everybody when he does what he does. Permanently outraged. We are permanently outraged. And our method, and I've been doing this through four books, is to think of this guy as singular. I mean, he's not part of a political process. He's not like any politician. He does things independent of even the people around him, of his advisors.

2:59And it all comes down, A, that this is a government of one, and this is a government of one which is motivated by whatever is motivating him at any given moment. And that often has no logic, no purpose, no gain for him even. And it is all instinctual. It is all mercurial. It is like a performer. He's responding at any given moment to his audience. And actually, sometimes he's not responding to his audience. He's just responding to whatever somehow got inside his head. And that's our challenge, to go into that head. So there's so much to poke around in today. What is inside his head over the spectacular Belgium win and the knockout of the US team after last night?

4:01We're recording this on Tuesday morning. As we know, he called Gianni Infantino, the head of FIFA, several times to get him to overturn the red card that the referee had given to one of the US players, Balogun. and he was supposed to be out of last night's game. Trump intervened. They quoted Article 27 as if it was the UN or something, which allows you to overturn a referee's decision. They rescinded the red card, outwent Balogun onto the field, and Belgium, having appealed the decision and FIFA said, well, we're not overturning the decision now, won decisively 4-1. I mean, it was an extraordinary game.

4:49And it was as if the US were defeated before they even got on the pitch. And I can't help wondering if they just didn't want to be the center of all that attention. Well, I can tell you who does want to be the center of all that attention, and that's Donald Trump. Right. And does he care about that the US team was defeated? You know, just, yeah, sure, only in a passing sense. I mean, Trump is a sports guy. Perfect. Maybe more than anything else, maybe more than a real estate guy. He's a sports guy. That's what he likes. And he likes to be the guy. He likes to be the manager, the team owner. And he likes to be reaching down, making decisions, overruling everyone else.

5:37He likes, it is for him a power move. Right. Has he ever owned a sports team? Yeah, he owned the soccer team in New York. Yes, he did, didn't he? And that was the sort of game went. Yes, and he likes rich guys who own teams. As a matter of fact, I have a story. I have a story. Go ahead. And this is that kind of thing. He has uber control over moving the pieces, the sports pieces around. So this would be in the first administration, his friend, Bob Craft, who owns the New England Patriots, is in trouble because he's been busted for frequenting Korean massage parlors. in Palm Beach. And it's not a good moment for Bob.

6:44He has legal difficulties. But even more importantly, and more threatening to Bob, is that he has difficulties with the NFL. Roger Goodell is threatening - Who's head of the NFL, right? Is threatening, you know, whatever a commissioner can threaten, sanctions or removing you from team ownership. Over the sex scandal? Yes. I mean, this was a major moment. Yeah, I remember because it was a sort of strip mall thing, wasn't it? And everybody was like, why does a guy who's so wealthy have to go to a strip mall for sex? Yeah, no. Oh, and just in the background, remember of Jeffrey Epstein in West Palm Beach and Jeffrey Epstein saying, you know, Bob Kraft gets takeout and I get taken.

7:39Oh, my God. At any rate, so his friend, Bob Kraft's friend, Donald Trump is on the phone with him, Donald Trump, the president of the United States. So this is Trump one. Yes. and Donald Trump is advising him on his how to handle a sex scandal. Right, because he's got lots of experience. Some experience. And Kraft says, yeah, yeah, no, I think we got it. My lawyer is this, that, the other thing. But, you know, what I'm really worried about is the NFL and Roger and what he's going to do. And Trump says, don't worry about Roger. I'll take care of him. And what happens? Well, nothing happened. So he went on and he still is.

8:35Bob Craft has returned to being a respected member of the billionaire community and the owner of teams. Right. He married a shrink much younger than him. And they live happily in the summer in the Hamptons. because from time to time I get invitations to go to his house. Okay. Well, there you go. But in this conversation, actually no one else knows about this conversation except the principles to it and me because there were several other people on the phone in having this discussion about Bob Craft and his problems and one of them shared this with me. Okay. Well, that is... That is an interesting story.

9:20It's boys helping out boys, right? And even beyond – of course, it's billionaires helping out billionaires. Right. But even more importantly, it's Donald Trump in this sports mix. You know, that's – Dana White is one of his close friends. Yeah. You know, that's – he comes alive in this thing. It really is what he would have probably in another life preferred to be doing.

10:13Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, including the moment your first customer is ready to pay. Shopify checkout helps more of them finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and Shopify gives you the tools to do it. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to small businesses just getting started.

11:03With Shopify, nothing stands between you, your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com forward slash Daily Beast. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash Daily Beast. So that brings us neatly sex scandals to Graham Plattner. I am prepared. I was not expecting to eat crow quite as fast. Let's do the background here. I mean, Graham, Graham, this is not good news. He's going to have to step aside. What is Trump thinking about this? Because Trump is going to enjoy this. Trump is very much going to enjoy this, I think. Well, I think you should eat a little more crow here.

11:49Well, I was excited about Graham Plattner's candidacy. I thought he seemed energetic, exciting, authentic. Yes, there was stuff in his past, but he seemed to have addressed it. This is kind of disqualifying. Did I say? Well, you didn't know that he was going to be accused of rape by an ex-girlfriend. But I did not see his path as straightforward. And it's too risky a seat. And what's at stake is too much for the Democrats to take the risk. So a couple of I think it's interesting what's in what's in Trump's head because he's going to be conflicted about this. I mean, he likes having a any Democrat damaged.

12:36And this is damaging, and this may help him hold the Senate. On the other hand, he is always on the side of anyone, of any man accused of sexual abuse in almost any shape or form. So he's going to be maybe on the phone with Graham Platt and giving him advice. No, I'm sure he is. Giving him advice. It's a horrible accusation, too. So, you know, he turns up drunk in the night or, you know, she lets him in and then he's just intoxicated and determined. No, no, totally. Well, but and then let's let's balance this against everything. And this is, I mean, an interesting perspective. Everything that Trump has been accused of, which is actually vastly more than this.

13:25He's been, courts have found him guilty of. Well, and the numbers of women who've come out with almost identical stories. Okay, but, you know, 28 at this point, you know, serial accused, sexual abuser, court found for Eugene Carroll. But that's not the situation Graham Platt is in. And this was a hasty, you know, it was a hasty rush to get him in. What do you mean? Just clarify that. You mean that's not the situation Graham Plattner is in? It sounds actually very close to the situation Graham Plattner is, although there aren't 28 women, but there are a handful of women, certainly. Right. I guess what I meant was that Graham Plattner wasn't a celebrity, that Trump has a sort of, well, he has a sort of Teflon exterior, it turns out.

14:20Graham Plattner doesn't have that. Well, we didn't know that. I mean, that's the question I'm going to ask you. But we didn't know that Trump's Teflon exterior is because he didn't go away. He didn't win face with this and the grab them by the pussy moment. Right. You know, that was the nadir of his campaign. The Republican National Committee came and said, you have to withdraw from the race. And he didn't. And that's what the fact that he was then elected is what gave him the Teflon coding. But he had to get elected first. Well, and that was because Melania said, oh, it's locker room talk, locker room talk.

15:12Well, I mean, it's a lot of things, including Steve Bannon, then at the subsequent debate with Hillary Clinton, the front rows were filled with the women who had accused Bill Clinton. So, yes, you can say that this is handled in a, they handled this in a politically astute way. But even more importantly, it's that Donald Trump, you know, never, never admit, never confess. Right. Well, like the Queen, never complain, never explain. I don't know these women. Who are these women? I don't know them. But so question for you. Do you think we are recording this on Tuesday morning? Graham Plattner has until next Monday to withdraw, which would give the Democrats the ability to nominate someone else.

16:08If he doesn't, then he's on the ballot and I guess going forward. Do you think he will withdraw before next Monday? I do. I do think he will withdraw. I'll probably be proved completely wrong and he'll be encouraged to brazen it out. But I don't think he will win against Susan Collins if he brazens it out. And I think he has to step aside. I mean, that's perfectly reasonable logic. I don't know. I mean, I think we're in a new climate, new politicians, new behavior among politicians.

16:48And we can go to a Trumpian model. And remember, Graham Plattner is, although a Democrat and a progressive Democrat, also exists in a Trumpian model. You know, that he's not from politics. His life story is not at all a political life story. His rough edges are what gives him his credibility. Right, his appeal. And his attractiveness. And from a personal standpoint, he really only has two choices, to hang his head in shame and to be never heard from again or to get beyond this by going through it. I don't think he can go. Not that I'm at all advocating that that's a good idea. I thought, you know, my feeling has always been that he was an odd and probably inappropriate candidate.

17:50You always said that. And I was I was charmed by him. I interviewed him. I told you he was in Norway at the time. He'd gone there for IVF because it was so much cheaper to have IVF in Norway than it is here. although you can get IVF or at least you can get the meds now at Costco at massively reduced prices. But at the time he was in Norway, he seemed to have thought about all the things he'd been accused of, totally inappropriate comments on Reddit, an alleged Nazi tattoo which he'd got when he was drunk. I mean, he's clearly someone who has or has had problems with alcohol, which, you know, if you go to an ER room on a Friday or Saturday, half the problems there are to do with alcohol.

18:42This country has such issues with alcohol and we really don't deal with it at all. All the emphasis goes on drugs and opiates and things. Anyway, that's a different thing. But Graham Platt has a problem with alcohol or he did have a problem with alcohol. It's led to all sorts of unfortunate behaviors. clearly has to step aside and let someone else who is a better candidate take on Susan Collins. It's too risky for the Democrats. Well, it's too, I mean, he was risky. I mean, risk for the Democrats is a kind of odd variable here because he was always risky for the Democrats. Yeah, he was. Now he's more risky.

19:16But I'm just, I don't know. I think, I suppose I agree with you that in all likelihood he will step aside because he should step aside. But in this new climate. Yeah, in this new world. And is this actually where he gets his attention, that he brazens it out? He's denied the allegations. The woman seems very plausible. She was very plausible on CNN. Completely. And I think, and I was thinking about this This morning, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking that there is a good book about scandals, modern scandals, beginning with Bill Clinton. So the two most successful politicians of our era, era defined broadly, are Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, each accused, I mean, each is surrounded by such scandal.

20:17And then you have Barack Obama, also very successful, two-term winner, not a whiff of scandal, scandal-free. Scandal-free. Why are you being so silent? Are you going to come up with an Obama scandal? I don't think so. I'm just trying to think. I'm just trying to think also in terms of success. You know, I mean, Obama is certainly has been a successful Democratic politician, a successful president, reelected president. But the kind of, but with a coolness in a distance and in a remoteness that I think in this political time didn't serve him well, doesn't serve him well. and that the connection that people have felt to Bill Clinton and Donald Trump has been palpably much more direct.

21:25Right. And they have charisma. Well, it's also the sense that you know these people. Right. You know, you really deeply believe that you know them. You know, it's interesting that we do this thing inside Donald Trump's head because many other political commentators don't. But much of the country actually feels they know what's in Donald Trump's head. And they like it. A lot of them like it because they feel that he says it like it is. OK, well, I still think Belgians overturned this was the best troll of the week. If we're giving awards this week, overturn this.

22:36So I wonder if anybody is watching and invested in Trump meme coins. 900 ,000 people did, and they've lost collectively$3 billion. $3.8, so$4 billion. Okay,$4 billion. You're rounding up. Rounding up. So what I wonder is what's in their head? I mean, wouldn't you say that there should be a collective revolt at this point if you were among the 900 ,000 people who lost this money? Because remember, they lost this money. Trump made billions. Well, what did he make on it? I wrote it down. 1.4 billion. 1.4 billion. And on his meme coin alone, I think he made 600 million. I mean, so what are these people thinking?

23:29Are they thinking? Are they thinking, I just got in too late. If only I got in earlier, it's my fault. Yeah, they may be. I'm a terrible investor. Yes, I'm a terrible investor. Or are they thinking it's going to come back? It's going to come back? It's just low right now. Bitcoin's low right now. At least I'm in the crypto game. Because obviously this is a crypto grift. I can't fathom it. I mean, first thing, who are these people who would invest alongside Donald Trump? I mean, this is like the classic rigged market. Of course, Donald Trump, the House, is going to win. Of course, you're going to lose.

24:05Now, having said that, of course, many people are already, there's a whole industry of people betting against the House and they don't revolt. So I guess I've answered my question. Well, it's a bit of a legal scam, isn't it? Because what Trump did with setting up World Liberty Financial, which also sounds like one of those things, it's like Meghan Markle's American Riviera Orchard, or was it American Orchard Riviera? It was just a name that had come up on AI, I think. This also felt like they put it into AI, come up with plausible name for crypto grift and the Trump meme coin. And of course, people lost money on Melania's coin too, the Melania coin.

24:55I mean, it's so shameless. It's just extraordinary, this grift. And it's the president doing it. No, well, it's the 900 ,000 people. Yeah, we are still outraged. I mean, people say that everybody's over Donald Trump's outrage. We are still outraged by this. Aren't we? Aren't you outraged by it? No, actually. I mean, in principle. I'm outraged by it. In principle, of course. But the other point of outrage is a real emotional, moral reaction to what is grievously wrong, unfair, and corrupt. And, you know, Watergate, I remember Watergate when one was actually, that was a moment which J.D. Vance just excused.

26:05Right, he said it would be a 12-hour news cycle. In which the country came to moral attention. And clearly they have not here, they have not at any point of the Trump grift, which is now 10 years running, getting worse and worse and worse and more lucrative and more lucrative for him. And we are inured, I think. Or do we accept it as part of Donald Trump? Which is the other thing. If you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the Griff because they go part and parcel with the man. He's a businessman. Of course he's going to take advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. I wish I could take advantage of every opportunity like that.

26:53Not I, I, but the man on the street. Right. But do you think the man on the street looking at Donald Trump thinks, oh, that's amazing. He's such a good businessman. He's made$2.2 billion. He's an amazing businessman. Thank goodness he's my president. Apparently, depending upon which side of the street you are on, yes, that's what you feel. And do you also think all politicians are corrupt? At least Donald Trump is successful and corrupt. First thing, I do not think we're a politician. No, not you. Politicians are corrupt. No, I don't either. But do you think the public thinks that? I mean, you know, there's been so much about Nancy Pelosi and all the Congress.

27:42I think depending upon which side of the street, actually, both sides of the street may feel this. I mean, politicians are obviously not a favored class at the moment like journalists. So, yeah, I think that that is also part of it. Remember, the other thing about Donald Trump, extraordinary thing, is he's transparent. Because he says people don't care. I deserve it. But it would be interesting to know if we can. Yes. Right, right. And he has specifically said that no one cares. Right. Well, I wonder if people do care and if the Democrats will be able to use it as part of their strategy to win back the House and possibly the Senate.

28:28Well, I'm sure they will try, but this is the kind of thing that also can backfire. You focus on an issue that people really don't – it doesn't resonate with them. Yeah, okay, sure. He's corrupt. Donald Trump is – tell me something I don't know. Right. Right. And wouldn't it be better if the Democrats were talking about this in Maine than Graham Plattner? Because Susan Collins has also had some good investments, I believe, along the way. You know, I just I don't know. And the Democrats don't know. What do we talk about? How do we how do we present something that is that is how do we call the country to moral attention?

29:09We don't know how to do that. Well, if you're listening to this, send us your comments on this, because this is the kind of thing that gets viewers and listeners really excited. And we would love to know, do you think people have lost moral outrage about Trump? I mean, when we hear from our commenters abroad, no one can believe this is happening here. And of course, Trump is at the NATO summit right now in Turkey. We had photos of him taking a walk with President Erdogan this morning. And we've still got Iran going on. Which we will get to, I hope. Well, we can get to it now if we want. Well, no.

29:53I want to make another point because in this moment of what's the issue, What's the, where do the Democrats focus? You know, what seems to be going on is that it's not about, it's not about issues. It's not about focusing on these, these kinds of this political script. It's about looking for a new kind of person. Everyone's got a hard question about AI, your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way. Because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.

30:43Well, new kind of person. Let's talk about Nigel Farage, new kind of politician in the UK who today announced that over money, I mean, similar. And of course, Britain's saying, oh, it's Trump levels of money. It's absolutely not Trump levels of money. for Nigel Farage. Remember, levels of money in the UK are$100 in the UK and people are scrambling on the floor. Well, because there's still a sense of moral outrage there, even after Boris Johnson and Liz Truss as prime ministers. But Nigel Farage, it came to light, had taken a$5 million gift from a businessman. And there are several other points of corruption around Nigel.

31:31So it would seems to be converging in on him. Yeah, he's clearly on his own kind of Faragean grift. But in a really interesting political stunt day, he's resigned his seat and is then standing again for the same seat, Klaxon, in East Britain, East England. So he's basically saying to his constituency, to the voters, people are accusing me of all this stuff. Do you care? And you can register whether you care or not by voting me back in. Yeah. It's a really, really clever stuff. Which is relevant to the Graham Plattner thing, that I think that he may take this position too. Well, he may, obviously may not, and I don't know what he's going to do, but it would be to the same effect.

32:26This is who I am. This is what I've done. Do you care about this more than you care about - About having me elected to represent you for affordability. And again, that goes to the thing, and it's not just about affordability. Again, I think it's a wrong thing to put this on issues. It's about the new political man. I am the new political man. So my only thing about Plattner and Farage is that it's one thing taking money and people are going to think, oh, Farage has got rich friends. I want someone in power who's – I totally agree. A rape is different. Yeah, that's what it is, obviously. But I'm thinking, I just wonder if this other thing is about the person.

33:13Yeah, it's about the person standing. It's about personality politics. It's about characters. We there's there's a there's a point that I want to get in here because I'm in thinking about this and thinking about about all of the Democrats who have who have who have recently overthrown the establishment. People coming out of we don't even know these people. Who are they? And suddenly they're winning elections and they're going to go to Congress. And I thought, what do they have in common? they're all good looking. It's kind of a weird kind of thing in contrast to standard issue politicians who generally look from terrible to we don't notice what they look like.

34:09So it's from sort of Mitch McConnell at one end. Admittedly, he's older now, but Mitch McConnell to Abdul Al-Sayed in Michigan, who's upsetting things there. We saw a moderate candidate dropping out this week. Also, him against his opponent, whose name does not come to me at the moment, who is standard issue looking. She's not the incumbent. Um, Haley Stevens, um, she's not the incumbent. Um, she's, um, um, that's, it's an open seat and, um, and she's, you know, perfectly, I mean, not, not someone who would be, who would be, um, um, particularly noteworthy in looks department. Fine. You know, just the, you know, and, and in not long ago, that would not have been a consideration.

35:03Politicians look like politicians. They're not movie stars. Right. But now they have to be, and AOC has talked about this, you have to have the ability to communicate on social media. And so it helps if you're attractive. It really helps if you're attractive. Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, I myself do okay on social media, so that would run contrary to that view. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But you're not running for office.

35:38you're not running for office um i am not running for office perhaps you should run for the hamptons you could run to represent you'd have to win in the blue collar district of huntington right very very not liberal yeah other than the hamptons yeah um but at any rate i'm too old to run for office i would say not according to ed markey who's going to be 80 when he goes into the senate with his 50th year of public service behind him, or Janet Mills, who was the candidate that Graham Plattener won over for the primary in Maine, Democratic primary, because they're too old. But this is part of the point.

36:18Why are these people running? They're good-looking, partly because they're young. Right. No, but they're good-looking because they're good-looking. And they're also good-looking because they're good-looking. Because they're good-looking, yeah. Well, Maloney, Georgia Maloney is quite good-looking. And there was, I mean, I hate to say it because it's nauseous, but. This is the Italian prime minister. Yeah, the Italian prime minister. But Donald Trump truth socialed a picture of her looking adoringly at him and said, restraining order. And of course, you know, this is because he claims that she demanded a selfie last time they met and that she was obsessed by him.

36:58She was like, why are you doing this? Completely untrue. Why are you doing this to your allies? Do this to your enemies. And now he's trolling her even further. I mean, she must just want to slap him across the face when she sees him. She would not be alone. Right. No, that's true. I mean, just remarkable what those poor Euros have to put up with America. And of course, Pete Hegseth's doing his six-month review of American troops in Europe, the Pentagon. Well, what is that? Just threatening and noisy and doesn't mean anything. Well, I mean, just one of those other digressions in Trump land, in Trump world, inside Trump's head.

37:38What is it with the Europeans? Why would you go after Europe? Why would you create that schism? And just a digression that the Roman Catholic Church just had a schism last week. I was trying to explain the nature of schisms. What to your children? To my 10-year-old daughter. And I lost her interest. Well, I'm sure she's figured it out by now. She seems very smart. But nevertheless, I mean, the European thing is meaningful. It will be one of those things. And I think we can start to make a list of what are the things that Trump is going to leave us with. and the kind of reshaping of the world, the reshaping of politics.

38:30And one of the things is this ever-increasing schism with Europe. And remember the importance of that, that that has held the world in its semblance of peace and prosperity for 80 years. Yes. 80 years. And now that is, we are clearly at this point because of Donald Trump moving beyond that. We don't have that anymore. It's almost disappearing. I mean, the NATO meeting that begins today, you know, NATO probably won't survive this, certainly not in the form that we have known it, in the form that has, relatively speaking, maintained the peace for so long. Is there an argument here that Europe should have been paying more for their own defense?

39:33Of course, there's an argument. It's always good if somebody pays more, but that's never been by making that the chief criteria of this relationship, misses the point of this relationship. Well, of course, Trump's missed the point of the relationship because he doesn't listen to what the point of the relationship is, and he probably doesn't understand what the point of the relationship is. And it also actually is more basic than we think it is. It is Trump being the center of attention. Right. He needs to be. I'm the center of attention of NATO because I'm going to ruin it or I'm going to make these demands on it.

40:11I'm more important than these Europeans. Actually, it's an interesting thing that during the first administration, aides would say that those European meetings were annoying to Trump because he had to appear as one among this group of people when he was so much more the United States and him as the president of the United States were so much more important. And he kept trying to reconfigure it so he would be in the front and they would be in the back. Behind him. Right. It's all about billing. Right. Of course it's all about billing and his name has got to be first. Yeah. But the middle powers, as Mark Carney refers to them, are creating their own defense mechanism now.

41:05Yeah. So there was a good story in the Wall Street Journal this week, a great story actually. going into some detail about everything that had kind of fractured in the European relationship, in the European friendship. Anyway, I recommend it. I read it. And in fact, that's where they described America, or a British intelligence source said America was now like the crucible meets Wolf Hall. All right. Do we want to talk about the Ayatollah's funeral. Do you remember Ayatollah Khomeini's funeral in, I want to say, the late 80s? I remember watching it and it just felt so different to any kind of state funeral that I had ever seen.

41:55I mean, the sort of wooden coffin got passed along from people. There didn't seem to be any official pallbearers. It's just like the crowd carries it along. Do you remember it? Funerals are particularly important in the Shia culture. They're so dramatic. Everybody's banging their heads. The book that we've been recommending, King of Kings, it's actually kind of extraordinary on describing these kind of mourning rituals. Well, I mean, I was re-watching this actually. And they become political too, which is the other thing. That that becomes a kind of central principle of political organization is these funerals which happen on a regular basis.

42:42Well, and the other thing that's so noticeable about them, also different from at least the culture I'm used to, is just how noisy they are. So people are wailing, they're banging their heads. Even the Brits don't wail and bang their heads. No, when Diana, Princess Diana's coffin came along, complete silence. When the Queen's coffin went past, complete silence. The crowd silences themselves as opposed to the wailing that goes on in, well, certainly in Iran and actually in African funerals too. Anyway, it's just the difference in culture. We wail in New Jersey. Yeah, of course you wail in New Jersey, but you wail in New Jersey and you don't even need a funeral.

43:22But did you happen to watch the Ayatollah Heimene's funeral this week? Well, I wasn't glued to the television, but yes. I mean, again, just it's sort of… No, no, and it's extraordinary. And it also goes to the point, what was the point about this war? What was the point about actually killing this guy? It was to overthrow the regime. So now we have this demonstration that not only is the regime not, has it not been overthrown, but it appears to have mobilized the country. Right. And they didn't rise up as Donald Trump instructed them to, having promised that help was on the way when they did rise up in January, by the time he decided to bomb it at the encouragement of Benjamin Netanyahu, they decided not to.

44:21No, and it's still, there's a thing. So we still look on this from the outside. We literally don't know what's going on. We have no idea. And we have no idea where the new leader is living. And Donald Trump doesn't know what's going on there. And there were two stories, conflicting stories this week, one in the New York Times, one in the Washington Post. In the Times story, he said, momentary unity at a funeral mass, deep divisions among Iran's leaders. And the thrust of this story was that it's all on the verge of coming apart, basically. The Washington Post story was Iran's regime survived the war and is now a savvier, ruthless, and more hardline.

45:05Right, so completely conflicting stories. Completely, and I think that that goes to the point, A, no one knows what's going on.

45:16And to the further point that we've just had this war and we don't know what it means. We don't know what it's accomplished. We don't know what it has left us with. I don't even know if ships are moving in and out of the Strait of Hormuz now on everybody's lips. Are they? Is traffic back to normal in the Strait of Hormuz? Well, it's certainly not back to normal. And it's certainly, you know, I think it's a day-to-day business. Do you get bombed? Do you not get bombed? It feels like it's going to be, I mean, it's a different scale. I mean, it's a negotiating. I mean, it's essentially the negotiating point here.

45:59Right. And then is it just going to end up being a kind of series of skirmishes that happen from time to time and it's basically a forever war, the very thing he campaigned against? Yeah, I think yes. How could it not be at this point? I mean, nothing has – the more important point is nothing has changed or little of importance has changed from before the war till after the war. It is still the same situation of an Iranian regime that has enormous amount of power and influence and that is intent upon using that power and influence in ways that necessarily continued to make it our enemy. Right, and totally destabilized the region, which was beginning to settle down.

47:04So nothing improved by it. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way. Because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.

47:33I want to go to my favorite podcast. My favorite podcast, which, as you know, is Storytime with the Second Lady, because when we read, we grow. Because when we read, we grow. She does an incredible grin after she said that. Someone, her producer, has obviously said, you must smile more. And I think there is someone on set holding up something which says smile, because she goes from completely solemn, straight face to suddenly a half moon of a smile. And you know she's been told to smile more. This is a podcast that may have an audience of one. That one person may be Joanna Coles. I'm obsessed by it.

48:12And of course, this week she had on the president. She had on the president and she asked him. Just to set the scene here, this is a podcast theoretically about books and reading. for children. Children are supposed to be their fantasy is when children are watching. Here's the thing that Donald Trump has literally zero interest in. Books and children. Right, and reading and reading. Well, yes. So she asks him, what books do you read? Do you have any time to read for fun these days? So I end up reading mostly newspapers. I usually read stories about myself. He doesn't even read about anything else.

48:55So he would never have read those two conflicting stories in the Post and the Times about what's going on in Iran. As we know, he has a resistance to information. Can I go back to when I asked him this question? Go on. So in the spring of 2016, he's running for president, begins looking like actually he might get the nomination. Still, that seems preposterous and totally preposterous that he would be elected president. But I'm interviewing him and I ask him the question that all presidential candidates get asked, what's your favorite book? And I can see, I can still see now the look on his face, which was a kind of ship you got me.

49:42God, how did I, how am I not prepared on this? And, you know, most politicians, of course, say the Bible. But even that, I think maybe he had, he said, that's not credible that I could say that. So you could see him search. And then suddenly, literally, his eyes light up and he says, all quiet on the Western front. Oh, I remember you saying this. Right. Which he'd obviously had to read at school. Yeah. Yeah. It just came out from somewhere. He just brought up a title of a book. Yeah, but a good book. Very good book. if any had read it. Well, she asked him that. He says he reads about himself. And then each visitor to Usha's podcast is asked to read a book for the children.

50:30Last week, it was J.D. Vance reading Winnie the Pooh, which he overcomplicated. I mean, it was absurd how he overcomplicated and he overexplained it. But Donald Trump didn't do that. He chose a children's book, which is produced by the White House Preservation Society, I think, and it's about how, it's called President's Play. And it's about how presidents relax when they're in the White House. President John F. Kennedy enjoyed sailing on the water while President Grover Cleveland relaxed by fishing. And so the Bushes relaxed by playing horseshoes. Let me just go a little background on what would have happened, that this would come out.

51:12They're going to he's got to do this. We need a book. Yeah, of course. And everybody in the White House would have been running around madly. what book is he going to read? It's a picture book, so he doesn't even need to read it. Yeah, well, that's another thing too. Does it have any? Did he just describe it? No, he just turns the pages and he describes it. That would be a big thing, because always the discussion within the White House is, and this is from the first administration, what is the level of his reading dysfunction? I mean, No one quite knows this, but they understand that words, reading, sight, all of this kind of thing is a problem.

51:58Well, he talks people through. So Nixon is bowling, Jimmy Carter plays tennis. And these things are so inadvertently revealing because he then gets to Obama, who's turned the tennis court into a basketball court. Sorry. And then there's a picture, there's a painting of all the presidents. There's a painting of Obama looking tall and lean and popping a ball into a hoop. And he goes, now here is Barack Hussein Obama. He's playing basketball. I don't think he's any good at basketball. He's probably not any good at basketball. And he like fixates on it. And then he must have been fixating on, I think, the Obama opening of the library and all the ex-presidents together hanging out without him.

52:42And I'm sure he was thinking of it or having fun hanging out without me, which is a very good title of a Mindy Kaling book. But he then says, wouldn't it be interesting if I got all the ex-presidents together and we went to a football game. We could all sit together, watch the football game. Wouldn't that be great? And you're like, what are you talking about, man? What are you talking about? Anyway, obviously, it was the most watched podcast they've done. He scored higher than J.D. and he scored higher than Cheryl Hines, who, as I constantly remind you, read a book about the wolf and the three little pigs and when asked why I said, I like pigs.

53:25Speechless. I'm speechless. I'm speechless. It's totally worth 10 minutes of your time. The whole enterprise here. I think it's just. Why would they have? Why would they have? What is the point of this? It's subversion. I think it's Usha's way of encouraging something that clearly Trumpians don't really care about, which is encouraging children to read. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, she seems like such a captive in this thing that I can't imagine that she's doing this willingly. So somebody must have gotten this idea that she should do this. And my guess is it's J.D., that this is a J.D. production.

54:14Hey, sweetie. Because at one point when he does it, he reaches over and taps her knee. And he's like, hey, sweetie. Maybe it was his idea. I think it's you got to get out there. We got to find something for you to do. We want people to like you. We need people to like you. Yeah, this is part of the JD campaign. And I think this is probably a measure of the JD campaign. Okay, well, it's not looking good. It's not looking good. But more to the point, Usha looks miserable doing it. She's clearly very uncomfortable in front of the camera. And this is a woman who, as I keep saying, was a Gates scholar at Cambridge.

54:55I mean, super smart. That obviously has nothing to do with YouTube. It doesn't translate. No, of course not. It doesn't. But why isn't she doing something with her skills? Why is it instead of this, which makes her look plainly uncomfortable, is not playing to her friend. She's a super smart woman and she's been relegated to sort of this silly podcast. Well, I imagine this is by choice. she doesn't, you know, if your husband is running for president, it's very hard to hold a job. Because you, especially at that level, if she's a lawyer. She could visit military wives. There's tons of stuff she could do.

55:39She could go and see children in a hospital, children who've got cancer. There's so much she could do that would be more beneficial than this nonsense. And also what's also fascinating. I can see you've thought about the job of first lady. What I did think is funny is they have a pile of books. Would you ever think of yourself in that role? No, I would have thought of myself as president, except I can't run as president. I can't run as president. But the thing that's interesting is they have for her set a pile of books, which are stacked to look as if they are real books. And of course, they've just carried them into the Oval Office, which is where they do the interview and plomps them down right next to Trump's chair.

56:24And Trump can't sit still either. So he can't just sit and read the book, which actually J.D. could. He's sort of all over his chair. Is he behind the desk? No, he's sitting on a chair next to her and he keeps saying how fabulous and fit she looks and how popular she is in the White House. And people really like you here. And then actually, again, he's kind of appealing in that he looks at himself and he He says he doesn't play golf at the White House, which I think Harry Truman had done, because he wants people to know that he's working for them. He's working for the American people, despite the fact he spent, I think, a quarter of his presidency playing golf.

57:02But he then makes a joke about he doesn't want to be the least fit president ever or the fattest president ever. I think Tuft was bigger than Trump, but it was clearly on Trump's mind. Yeah, well, Trump has got to be up there. I mean, he's a 300-pound guy, whatever he says. That's 300 pounds. And he's 15 pounds heavier this year than he was last year. I mean, you have no idea what is the sense of his massiveness when you're with him. Yeah. I mean, it's daunting. Right. I'm sure it's daunting. No, and I'm sure it's a very helpful tool when you're in the room with someone. Yeah. No. No. I mean, even I was, on the times that I've been, on the multiple times I've been with him, it's the thing that you are most aware of.

57:49His physicalness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't think John Thune's intimidated by his height because he's taller. It's not just height, however. No, it's the mass. He's like a bison. He's physically like a bison. There's something, maybe something else about the way he animates. I mean, it's a presence. It's a presence. Any updates in your case against Melania Trump? Well, I think you're up to date. We were in court last week and the judge reproached the other side. But there's no decision on that and there's no now the other side. We're just waiting to see whether they go forward with their threat to file sanctions, which is just something that you do to make us spend more money.

58:51and cause more delay. And actually the interesting thing about this is, as this is outlined to me by the lawyers and how it plays out, that if they go forward with this bid for sanctions, this is how much this can cost, they go forward with this bid for sanctions, it will then be the judge has pretty much said that she will throw this out. But then they will appeal that to the Second Circuit. And then the Second Circuit will throw this out. And then they will appeal it to the Supreme Court. Now, this is not even the main focus of this case. But this is then a tributary of this case that will end up costing that's probably all in.

59:43That's six figures, sir. Right. Well, as someone pointed out, one of our comments pointed out, this is like John Dyson, John Dyson, Dickens' Bleak House, where they spend so long on a case over a state that they all run out of money. The whole thing is spent in the court. Right. The only problem here is that, of course, the Trumps and the United States government will not run out of money. Right. Right. Whereas, whereas I might. Well, you're hugely supported by people that you raised a lot of money on GoFundMe, and I'm sure people will be prepared to help you if it gets to the point where you've run out your initial fund.

1:00:19But they must be banking on that. It's just how people use the law. It's it's remarkable. Yeah. Now, I'm not sure I told you that. So when they were in court, my lawyers saw on their screens, the opposing counsel's screens, as the judge was admonishing them so they didn't get to use this material. But they had us up there ready to use snippets of our… Of inside Trump's head? Yes. Well, I wonder which part it was. Do you know which bit it was? I don't. I don't. Intriguing. Intriguing. Well, if you have been, thank you for joining us. We'll be back on Thursday. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast.

1:01:14This is We Are Independent Media. We've just had Independence Day, a toast to Independence Day. Let's have a toast to independent media. And the reason we can bring you these conversations is with your support. So please feel free to join the Daily Beast. And you could become a friend of the Beast, or you can join the Be Beast tier membership, where you get all sorts of advantages. And you can also get an ad-free experience. Some people have complained about the ads on YouTube. If you get a subscription, you get an ad-free experience, and you get to support independent media. And I'm sure there's some tier here where you can come and have lunch with us.

1:01:57Well, we should introduce that tier, the lunch tier, the lunch tier. Well, we should go and have some lunch. Let's go and have lunch. Let's go and have lunch. All right. Do you want to thank our crew? Thank you, as always, Ryan, Max, new name on the set. The intern, Max, the intern. John, Heather, Rachel, Neil. So the good news is we have so many B-beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.