This Is the Sordid Reason Trump Bows to Putin

0:00I was speaking to someone in the White House, and I said, what do you think his number is? He said he thought probably he wanted, Trump wanted 20 billion by the end of his term. He and his family could make 100 billion, that it really was about the money. Being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever. This is at the root of Trump's interest in and admiration for Putin, that Putin is the one world leader who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation. Ukraine has really frustrated my ability to do a deal, to be partners with Putin. So I am now going to do everything possible.

0:51I only got two years left. Everything possible to close down the Ukraine situation and make deals with Putin.

1:03Hello, Los Angeles.

1:08this is being recorded because this will be thursday's podcast so for yeah so you will hear yourselves on the podcast so for those yes exactly if you want to hear yourself develop a strange laugh right now or or heckle no don't heckle i've never had a heckler that would be interesting we can talk about anything here because there's no one else here right It's very strange for us because normally we just have a conversation, the two of us. We're chattering away. And then we put it out into the world. And obviously we see people's comments. But it's incredibly exciting to meet an audience and actually see the audience.

1:47We never talk to anyone except ourselves. And then there's usually a few of the producers in the studio with us who look bored. And they're like, oh, not again. Not again. It's the two of you again. Anyway, we're thrilled to be here. We have people from San Diego. We've got people from Texas. We've got a gentleman from Connecticut. It's very exciting. We've got people from London. It's great. It's great. Yes. Okay. Okay. Anyway, I think we should start now, and we should start by me saying Michael. Joanna.

2:29so

2:33I'm not smiling he really doesn't smile actually he does look younger than he sounds and he's looking particularly fetching today because he's put on a suit for you all

2:49yeah you know I have a lot of suits And because I've gone with this cardigan thing, I don't really know how this happened. But so my suits are kind of forlorn in the closet. So I am glad to bring them out. Obviously, we're going to talk about the midterms. We're going to talk about what might Trump do if he wakes up on November the 4th and there has really been a blue tsunami. We're going to talk about his people. We're going to talk about, obviously, J.D. Vance, about RFK Jr., Michael's special friend. We're going to talk about Elon. We're going to talk about Rubio. We're going to talk about Heggers, as we call him.

3:35I think we'll do a drive-by of Katie Zachariah because I just can't resist it. Natalie. Natalie Harp. We're going to definitely talk about Natalie Harp, who you were writing about in All or Nothing, which came out with incredible speed after Trump had just been inaugurated. The fury and the speed with which Michael writes his book is something really unparalleled. Practice. Practice, right. It's one of the benefits of getting older. Yeah, no, and I was actually one of the books and I was I was kind of pleased with with my with myself that I had written it this fast. And then a friend of mine said, well, you have had a lot of practice.

4:20Mean. That's very mean of them. Anyway, but before we get on to any of that, we should really, I think, kick off with Ukraine because it is so urgent. It is so shocking. And why? I mean, who among us thought that we would see an American president side with the aggressor, side with Russia? the assumption that the Cold War had been won and that the West had won it. What is talk about Trump and Putin? Well, I mean, I think the question, remember, and the persistent question from the beginning of Trump's political life, at least life in the White House, is what does Putin have on him? And what is inside Trump's head on Putin?

5:11Well, I mean, I think I can somewhat explain this. And, you know, one of the things, you know, there was a period in the first administration when I sat around with Steve Bannon, actually, we had gone, we saw Trump's news conference in Helsinki with Putin. And I mean, when they had had their private meeting and then they came out and Steve Bannon said, God, Trump looks like a beaten dog. And then it was him trying to say, what does Putin have on him? And he went through all of the possibilities, dismissing them all. Financial, Trump wouldn't care about that. He could wave that away. sexual. No, Trump just waves that away.

6:01The pee tape and Bannon said, no, no, Trump would just say, that's not me. And and then and then Bannon said, said, well, maybe Putin has his transcript from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. But I actually think I think it's it's it's actually larger than that. What Trump wants, perhaps more than anything, is money. I think Trump, in his heart, in his head, wants to be an oligarch. And I said to some, and this was just recently, I was speaking to someone in the White House, and we were sort of talking about the money, the grift. And I said, what do you think his number is?

7:01And this person in the White House, someone very close to Trump. And one of the interesting things about the people around Trump is that they are actually very objective when they talk about him, because he is as foreign to them as Trump is to us. I mean, they're being paid and they have to fall in line and do all of the things that Trump demands of people. But they're clear-eyed. Trump is Trump. And this person said, well, he thought that Trump's number, and remember, I guess Trump is at about $4 billion now in this second administration. This person said, well, that I'm going to say he, but I was trying not to say he because I am, you know.

7:56You're trying to protect the general source. But he said he thought probably he wanted, Trump wanted$20 billion by the end of his term. And he wanted to have deals in place that he could, when he returns to Mar-a-Lago, he and his family could make$100 billion. That it really was about the money. That being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever. And and that is and I think that is that makes the most sense to me. This is at the root of Trump's interest in and admiration for Putin, that Putin is the one world leader who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation.

8:53And so Trump right now, I think it's like, you know, Ukraine has really frustrated my ability to do a deal, to be partners with Putin. So I am now going to do everything possible. I only got two years left. Everything possible to close down the Ukraine situation and make deals with Putin. Let's put this in perspective. Is there a worse thing an American president has done than side with Russia at this point? I mean, you know, post Second World War, arguably, of course, Vietnam, where, you know, thousands of American soldiers lost their lives. Yeah, I'm not sure how you, yeah, I mean, 45 ,000 people died in Vietnam, 6 ,000 people died in a totally pointless Iraq war.

9:44But the knock-on impact of allowing Putin to stay in Ukraine. Yeah, well, it's just, I mean, it's absolutely abhorrent. And the other interesting thing is it doesn't seem to work. I mean, the Ukrainians are, I mean, I think one of the things that we will look back on this time and we will single out the Ukrainians not only for their tenacity, but also for their brilliance and inventiveness. You know, so, I mean, Trump may want this. I'm sure he does want that. He does from the beginning. He's wanted this situation in Ukraine to just go away. I'll solve it in an overnight. But it doesn't. And it doesn't because they are fighting for something and because they have understood how you change the nature of war.

10:48So, I mean, which goes to the other thing that Trump is, in the end, in so many ways, ineffectual and incompetent. Because he doesn't, you know, what does Trump know about Ukraine, about the nature of warfare, about any of the things that we depend upon a president of the United States to know something about? If there's a weight loss, girl, you keep chasing and never quite reaching. You're not the only one. Weight loss by HIMSS can help you finally close the gap with access to a range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wagovi pill and the Wagovi pen. Wagovi is the first ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill, and it also comes as a pen, so you've got options.

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12:37let's go back to your interview with trump in 2016 not far from here in beverly hills five six miles away um is it more than that okay sorry um show my ignorance there eight miles eight miles, 10 miles. At any rate, on the corner of Cannon and Sunset, Trump had a house. Who knew? This still seems mysterious to me. Did he really own that house? Was it someone else's house? But there I was with Donald Trump in this house filled with kind of furniture cast off from hotels, it seemed to me. The whole thing seems strange. It's right across the street from the Beverly Hills Hotel. I was invited there and I went in and when I got there, he opened the refrigerator door and said, do you want anything?

13:41And it was just filled. The only thing that was there were pints of haagen-dazs ice cream um and just just lined up like a haagen-dazs yeah no like like if we were in a store a haagen-dazs store i don't know and uh um uh cherry vanilla and and i said no but it didn't make any difference he didn't listen to me because he doesn't listen to anyone he threw me one and and then we then we sat on the on the on this this overstuffed couch, um, this kind of hotel lobby couch, um, eating our ice cream together. Um, I can still see Trump just, um, um, and, um, and then we, we spoke, you know, we spoke

14:33hours actually, actually, because no, let me clarify. He spoke, I listened. But this would have been in May 2016. So still at that point where it looked like he might actually get the nomination, he was going to get the nomination, which was mind boggling enough. But still there was no conception in my mind, or I believe in anyone's mind that he was actually going to be the president of the United States. And I said to him at that point, and we had known, kind of known each other, because I was at New York Magazine for quite a number of years. And then he would kind of call, I was the sort of designated person who he would call to complain about stories that he might be mentioned in, but more often when he wasn't mentioned.

15:40Why am I not in that story? I should have been in that story. You really missed it because I was, et cetera, et cetera. And we had a kind of good relationship. He was certainly not in any way hostile. And he got you on the phone and he would talk to you because that's what he does. But so in the Beverly Hills house, I finally said to him, I said, okay, okay, just tell me, really, why are you doing this? Why are you running for president? And that's a sort of a trick question for everyone running for president. And no one really has a clear answer, But Trump had a clear answer, which pretty much explains everything to come.

16:31He said, and there was no hesitation here, he said to be the most famous man in the world. And, you know, is there anything more than we have to understand that this is what this what his initially running for president. And then I think he was more astounded than anyone to be president. But then this entire 10 years, 10 years, right? Yes. Has been about the pursuit of attention. So let's talk about that. And let's talk about what we're actually trying to do with inside Trump's head. Because I think the first few times we had conversations, we were like, why aren't people covering this differently?

17:18Why don't people understand that this is what's driving Trump, that he is not a normal politician? And if we cover him as if he is a normal politician, we are missing the point. So sometimes at the beginning of the podcast, especially for new people that are joining, we try and explain what we're trying to do. And this is an audience of people who know the podcast. But just for a quick 60 seconds, will you explain why we are trying to do something different here that really does try to understand his motivation? Government in almost every situation is about process. It's about enormous numbers of people being involved in the bureaucratic decision-making process.

18:12Trump radically deviates from that. He doesn't care about anybody else. doesn't even acknowledge, I'm not even sure he understands that there are other people who have significant roles and significant influence. He just ignores that and has made this effectively a government of one. He has no advisors who he listens to. He has no real agenda that he's pursuing. It's about what he wakes up in the morning thinking. He lives in the moment. And he has said, who is your closest advisor, Mr. President? Quite a number of people have asked him this question, including me. And his response is always unselfconsciously me.

19:20I am my main and only advisor. So in order to understand Trump, in order to understand this moment in time, in order to understand the politics of where we are now, you really got to understand what motivates him, what moves him at any given moment. And apart from money, the other currency that he trades in, that he craves, that he's good at dominating, as you've just alluded to, is attention. Can we take the example of the idea of streaming an execution as just a way that you said, why is everybody covering this? It's not going to happen. It's obvious it's not going to happen. One of the things that he does, and this goes on pretty much on a daily basis, I mean, the people around him, he'll come up with an idea or he'll hear an idea and suddenly adopt it.

20:31and has no relationship whether this is a real idea, whether it's an idea that he actually intends to pursue, whether he thinks it has any possibility at all. But he'll say, just put it out there. Just put it out there. And just put it out there means, Let's see what the reaction is. But more importantly, let's put it out there and then we'll see the media go crazy and he gets another news cycle, which is all about Trump. So this is an administration wholly measured in news cycles. If there is a successful day, is that the front page of the New York Times, most of the headlines are Trump related.

21:29And it doesn't matter whether they are positive headlines or negative headlines, just that they are Trump headlines. And there's a fundamental, the fundamental politics, the fundamental formula of Trump politics is that attention is zero sum. If he gets it, other people. In fact, if he gets it, nobody else does. And attention is power. Attention is success. So therefore, if nobody else gets attention, it's Trump's world. And the tragic thing is that turns out to be kind of true. It's also difficult, or it's also proved difficult for the Democrats to figure out how to maneuver around him, I think.

22:27So let's just talk about the midterms. We've seen that, in fact, his policies, in as much as they are policies, have come back to haunt him. Iran, ICE, the economy, almost everything he's tried to do has not ended up well because he's incompetent and he's surrounded by a cabinet of incompetence, loyalists who have no interest in actually doing anything. how do you and even in a broad in a broader sense i mean so this administration in which he has had free reign i mean he said free reign because because he's declared himself to be having um um having this huge mandate and then he's hired people who are too too um weak-willed to challenge him.

23:20So he's been able pretty much to do whatever. And he believes that he can do whatever. The problem with doing whatever is that nothing is thought through here and everything collapses in on itself and bites you in the ass, which essentially every significant policy has had that effect, meaning he has the lowest approval rating of any president in modern times. Okay, so one of his methods you have talked about is this thing where he calls people. So on the one hand, he puts things out there and sort of has the court of public opinion and the media react. The other thing he does, you say, is he has a list of people, a sort of Rolodex of people that he calls, and he asks them things and he puts things out there.

24:20And, you know, he gets feedback that way. How do you think that is going right now? Well, I wouldn't exactly call it feedback. I mean, he creates his own loop. So he hears what he wants to hear. um and and people know this this kind of it's it's it's a kind of um um you know call and response um so he'll he'll call and and he'll say um uh uh you know how do you think so and so is doing and um well he did this last week right with Katie Zachariah yeah and that means that person is cooked and everybody knows that. So if you get a call like that, if you're the president, you're calling me and I go, hello, Mr.

25:13President, and you go, what do you think about Katie Zachariah, the new press secretary? Am I supposed to just sense that you're asking me because you want me to reinforce what you've already decided? Absolutely. And you will understand that. And remember, the other thing is he doesn't listen to anyone anyway. So everybody is just there for them to be an echo of what he wants. So, I mean, I've had this experience of him calling me during the first administration. And I went into the White House in a way that, I mean, it's just a kind of inexplicable circumstance in which you would just allow a writer to have free access, free reign.

26:22And that happened, I mean, I had asked after they had won the election and Steve Bannon and I were having a kind of back and forth conversation. And I said to Steve, I said, I'd like to come into the White House as an observer. And Steve said, well, you know, you got to ask, we got to go talk to the boss. And so this was in Trump Tower, and we went up to Trump's office, and I kind of made this pitch about coming in as an observer. And then he thought I was asking for a job, deputy assistant observer.

27:12Because he would like that. He would like someone just to observe him. Yeah, well, then I said, no, no, no, no, no. know, I want to write a book. And he said, well, OK, well, whatever. So the book means just saying the word book, not interested. And then I came out of the office with Bannon. Bannon said, well, he didn't say no. And literally on that basis, I was given pretty much free reign in the West Wing for about seven months. And then toward that was Steve Bannon, by the way, talking to me every day with him, a kind of completely unvarnished conversation about his feelings about Trump, which were vicious, to say the least.

28:08But at some point that first summer, Trump started to call me and saying, what do you think about your friend Steve? And I thought, oh.

28:22And what was it like? Because I remember when you would call me, Michael and I have known each other for 27 years, 28 years at this point. And I remember you calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this. I'm just sort of hanging out at the White House. And I was like, well, what do you mean you're just hanging out there? And you're saying, I don't know, I'm just sort of hanging out here. Yeah. You know, I mean, it was the kind of eeriest thing. I mean, of just being allowed into the White House and then and then trying to make yourself small. So so no one noticed that you were in the White House.

29:01And then I used to sit on the couch in the West Wing and everybody. You know, The West Wing is a very small, it's actually astounding. It's like, you know, like a college admissions office. So you became the listener. Fire and Fury, your first book, comes out. It sells five million copies. And people are going around saying, this guy's made it up. This can't possibly be true. It's absolutely chaotic. And we learn that, in fact, not only is it true, but it's possibly even more grotesque than the chaos you have laid out, that people hate each other. They're doing everything to stop Trump doing what Trump wants to do.

29:44I think one of the things that people find very hard to understand, and I want you to explain it to people, because you go on and you do fire and fury, you do siege, you do landslide, you do all or nothing. Very good. Thank you. And I can remember the titles better than Michael can. But people carry on talking to you. And I think I want you to explain to people, because I find it interesting when you tell me, why do people do this? And I think Lindsey Graham is the perfect example of someone who figured out how to get into Trump's court. He played golf with him 154 times. He whispered in his ear as the last person from as many times as he could, especially on Ukraine.

30:37and yet he was also talking to you because he wanted his actual understanding of who Trump was to also be out there. I mean, he was the ultimate political animal in a way, but he wasn't the only one. But that's even a different case. I mean, Lindsey Graham spoke to me. I think Lindsey Graham spoke to a lot of people. He was a press hound and certainly knew where his bread was buttered and was a raconteur and liked to tell those kinds of stories. But the more interesting thing is why people in Trump's close circle. So people, and Lindsey Graham, Donald Trump couldn't fire Lindsey Graham. Anyone in the White House who was speaking about Trump was very well, might be fired.

31:28So why did people speak to me? And I kind of don't know the answer to this, But the other answer is, I think, is that people around Trump have, like any of us, I mean, I think as I was saying before, they see Trump not different than we see him. They think this is an anomalous situation. This is weird. They can't explain them. So they're looking for other people who might be able to explain them. So over time, and I've been doing this now for four books for 10 years, you develop relationships. There are people in the Trump circle who I am very friendly with. I mean, friendly with over a long period of time.

32:22And it's sort of, you know, I have to justify it in my own head. How can I be friends with people who work for Donald Trump? I mean, key people in Donald Trump's circle. And the explanation is that you become friends with people who you have just known for a long period of time. And you kind of excuse them, or you also find that they do have this interesting perspective on him. They know a lot about this guy, and they have a certain amount of clarity about him. And also, in their divided self, they stand back and look at him and they say, oh my God. And people call me up and it's remarkable how many conversations begin with, I pick up the phone and somebody says, you won't believe it.

33:34and then they narrate what's what's gone on and of course the question is well why do you work for him and that's another complicated question i mean and partly the answer is that if you're if that's if your profession is to be a republican political operative you Donald Trump just came to own the party. He is the only game in town. Okay, so is he the only game in town? Because in exactly two weeks, we've got the midterm elections. Yeah, yeah.

34:13Is your question what happens? Well, my question is, you have always said, and we did a themed issue about this last week, that Donald Trump doesn't see winning and losing in the way that the rest of us do. That everything he does is he somehow manages to seize victory out of the jaws of even the biggest defeat. We saw what happened in 2020 when he convinced himself, I think, that he'd won. And he convinced lots of other people he'd won. And then he refused to acknowledge that he could possibly have lost. So I guess my... I just... I have never thought that he really convinced anybody. There are a certain group of people who decided that their bread was buttered on agreeing with him.

35:02I think that the only person truly convinced that he had won was Donald Trump himself or truly convinced that the election was stolen from him was Donald Trump. And do you actually think he? Absolutely. Right. And I have spent really a lot of time listening to him on this subject. And the way he talks about the numbers, I mean, these numbers come out of his head. I mean, they're all they're all meaningless, but he he actually misunderstands them. And so it's it's it's several several levels removed from reality. There are the numbers that that that he's supposed to say, but then he transposes them because he's innumerate.

35:54And then there are other numbers and you go, oh, my God. So what happens if, let's assume for the sake of our audience, and we all want a bit of sort of sunshine on the horizon, let's assume that there is a blue wave and it's clear that the Democrats have won at least the House. How does Trump, what happens to Trump when he becomes officially a lame duck? Well, I mean, I think there's several things there, several scenarios. What happens if he loses the House and by how much? Loses the House and holds the Senate. or what happens if he loses the House by a landslide and then loses the Senate too?

37:01A lot of wishful thinking going on. Well, then the next thing that happens is he loses his shit. I mean, we're in a new world and he's in a new world. If it's a really blue wave, which I think it has the possibility to be, if the numbers are so great, then that's a different story what happened. That's certainly a losing his shit story. The danger is in this highly polarized time and with everything, all of this money that the Republicans are now are now mustering and spending with everything that they've done, that it will be close. I think the Democrats still win, but it will be close. Then that's going to be a difficult, my God, a difficult week, two weeks, three weeks of the Republicans and Trump fighting every seat, every victory.

38:11And I think in the end, as has happened before, Or the numbers, the true numbers will prevail and there will probably be a safe, there will be a democratic house.

38:33And so that's kind of one scenario. And in that scenario, yeah, Trump just doesn't mind. You know, then it's stole. We just go through the same thing. They stole it again. It's that, you know, he won. The Democrats are everything that we've heard. We've heard in the past. And one of the Trump's things that Trump always does is just go back to the playbook that worked for him before. If, however, it really is a substantial win on the part of the Democrats, then Trump has to reconfigure this in a way. And I think then it becomes again, a battle for attention. So, and he'll go, he'll revert to attention is zero sum.

39:29So then it becomes even more Trump than it has has been it becomes even more outrageous it becomes more he wants every headline so i mean what what happens i'm you know we invade cuba um we uh can he do that i mean he's had a very compliant congress i mean he's had a supine congress if if um if the house goes democratic, can he actually invade Cuba? Sure. Of course. He just gets on and does it. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's like tearing down. I thought you needed congressional approval. It's like tearing down golf courses. I mean, you just do it and then fight about it later. In all of these things, it's just to grab the headline.

40:25It doesn't really matter what he can do, what he will do. You do it, you grab the headline. For Trump, that's victory. Attention is the win. Okay, so he did that with Iran. Iran has not worked out in the way that he thought it might do because of Venezuela. How does he get out of Iran? What's inside Donald Trump's head about Iran right now? Kind of mush. Right. In fact, our design, our very design. No, I mean, he doesn't know what's going on there. I think it's incredibly I was going to say frustrating but it's enraging to him that this has not worked out and he can't understand why it has not worked out.

41:19I mean, you know, I mean, Trump is his understanding of anything is on the most simplistic and basic level. We have the biggest, most powerful military in the world, in all of history. So how can you possibly explain how we would not be able to defeat a little country. And that is literally every day that question gets asked in some way, that rhetorical question Trump asks in some way. And there is no answer that satisfies him. Um, is it likely after the election that we will go back to bombing Iran? I think, yeah, I think that there's a good, good likelihood. Is it likely that we will go back to bombing Iran with no effect whatsoever and that we will just repeat this cycle again?

42:23Yeah, that's likely too. Is it likely that if he loses the House and the Senate that they stop the funding for this? That is also likely, and then Trump will blame them for losing the war. And it's interesting because he and Putin now have that in common. and they're both stuck in a war that at the moment they can't get out of. One of the things we know is that J.D. Vance has been very clear in regime change and putting out there that he was not for this war, that he's tried to distance himself. Do you think J.D. Vance inherits the MAGA base? Does he inherit Trumpism? Or does Trumpism fizzle once Trump isn't there any longer?

43:20yeah yeah i mean without without question it is it is the latter trump is absolutely unique we have never seen anyone like him we will never see anyone like him again

43:42when when trump departs this veil of cheers he will leave very little left um meaning that none of us will be here that america will have vanished that he may have blown up the world no i don't think so i think i think very little left of of trump trump politics i mean i think that this is an aberration. But, you know, Trump, you know, where is he going? He's not, he's not going. And I don't mean that at the end of, you know, 2028, 29, he departs the White House. I mean, I really mean he needs to leave this earth

44:32Because He will return to Mar-a-Lago in 2029 and he will effectively set up a counter White House and he will be a a Constantly a constant presence grasping, even more than grasping, probably succeeding in having his attention rival whoever becomes the president. And in this, the president will not be a Republican. So J.D. Vance is, Jesus, if I were any, I would just go home. Trump is not going to allow the next president to be a Republican, thereby superseding him. So it will be a Democrat who then, he will then, you know, conflict is his food, just what he eats. What about, you have talked about, and I love your personal anecdotes of having spent a month with him in Alabama when his uncle was running for, well, trying to get the Democratic primary, talking obviously about RFK, who you see very much as beginning to build his own platform now to run in 2028.

45:58Now, I know, I know, I know. But who thought that Donald Trump could get elected? And here is a man with a Kennedy brand that has a following. do you think he's going to run? Yeah, I think he's, well, I think he's certainly going to try to run and certainly considering running and certainly has stars in his eyes and certainly understands and certainly believes this is his destiny. So I've known Bobby Kennedy since we were both in our 20s. And even then I thought, this is the craziest guy I have ever met. I mean, truly like, whoa.

46:48And I would have said, and I certainly felt then that he didn't have a destiny, That his destiny was, he had been the Kennedy destiny, he was going to fall there with him. And I could not have been more stunned by his revival at the age of 70. 73. Well, now, now 73, yes. But when this campaign, you know, when he started to run for president in 2024, and that was really created by, that was in part a Steve Bannon thing. And the whole thing was they were going to get RFK Jr. to run, and that would run as a Democrat. And then their plans got kind of turned in on themselves because then he decided to run as an independent and started to take pull from both the Democrats and the Republicans.

48:20And when Kamala Harris, when Biden withdrew and Kamala Harris replaced Biden, his Democratic supporters went with her. So at that point, then the Republicans had to make a deal and they made this serious devil's bargain with him to take over health and human services and suddenly making him a serious MAGA contender. And giving him a huge influence over public health in America too, which is just astounding as someone shouted out the brain worm over there. Let us not forget the brain worm. Let us not forget cutting off the raccoon penis. Let us not forget the bear in Central Park, the roadkill bear.

49:11Yeah. And now, of course, I recommend to all of you his absolutely extraordinary podcast, which I can't remember what it's called now. It's How to Cook in America or something, where he brings in chefs who constantly try to create a connection with him and he has no sense of humor, barely registers that they're there. It's the weirdest, weirdest thing. Only bested by story time with the second lady. Because when we read, we grow, which is what she does. It's the most, they've all got podcasts, these people. And I'm happy to say that our podcast eats their podcast for lunch.

49:59So we've got JD Vance running. We've got RFK Junior, still Junior at 73 running. Heggers, the state of the force, his speech two, three weeks ago, his putting out there that there was going to be an execution and it would be streamed. You immediately said, well, this is his platform. He's running. Does he, does Colonel Vodka? Don't forget Marco Rubio. No, no, I'm going to come on to Rubio, but I thought you might want to give us a couple of minutes on Heggers. Because Hegg is, as you remind us, Colonel Vodka, which is Roger Ailes' name. So when he worked for Fox, Roger Ailes would call him Colonel Vodka.

50:49I wonder why. And, yeah, I mean, again, one of those people that you can't even begin to summon a logical train of thought to say why he should be the Secretary of Defense. the Secretary of Defense. That means he runs the largest bureaucratic organization in the world. With such... I mean... A 1.5 trillion dollar budget. Just imagine the management demands of running this kind of organization. and imagine that the person who would have to rise to those management demands is the co-host of a weekend television show. Well, and he ran two veteran affairs, not one, but two veteran affairs organizations and was drummed out for incompetence.

51:57I think you keep saying that and I think you dignify his experience by saying that These were hardly, these were nothing organizations. So nobody, I mean, which nothing organizations, which he failed to run in any kind of competent manner. But that is not management experience at any level. So he's put into this position to be, you know, and the Secretary of Defense is customarily someone with extensive experience in military, in business management. That's what the job is. It's management of a complex, arguably the most complex corporate organization on earth. That's Hager's. That's what Hager's does.

52:45That's the person we gave this job to. Well, does Heggers do it or does Heggers' wife do it? I mean, Jennifer is in the Pentagon at all times. There are photographs of her everywhere. She's brought in her best friend as his advisor. Well, I mean, the truth is that that means nobody does it. So, I mean, is she in there throwing her weight around? Yes, obviously. And their method of management is just to fire anyone who might be capable of managing. So that leaves Marco Rubio of the immediate crew around Donald Trump. He's often thought of as being the grown up in the room. I don't know who thinks that actually, but I feel like it's one of those phrases out there about him.

53:33Does he seem to you a likely candidate? Well, I think he will run. I mean, none of these people seem, there is no Republican who is a contender, who Donald Trump will not undermine and humiliate. And in the end, make sure that this person, that whoever the candidate, the nominee is, wins, won't happen. I guess maybe the only person people who could make it happen are the Democrats who are, of course, have a talent for. But we'll save that. But but that the last thing that Donald Trump can allow to happen is for a Republican to become the president, which would then marginalize Donald Trump. And was there a more glorious moment than two weeks ago when Marco Rubio arrives in the Hellenic Republic to stand in front of the Acropolis?

54:34Who greets him as he arrives? Kimberley Guilfoyle in a bear hug. And of course, dominates Kimberley Guilfoyle's shenanigans and her desperation to get her$100 ,000 Amex bill paid off by Eric Dieters. well, it ruined Paul Rubio's tour. The only questions he got were about our Greek ambassador. Jesus, Kimberly Guilfoyle. But this is... Former first lady of just up the road, San Francisco. Ah, yes. Did you see Gavin Newsom's comments when asked about her this weekend? He said, oh, we haven't spoken for a bit. I wish her well. Yes. No, I mean, I think it's I mean, if Gavin Newsom runs for president, when Gavin Newsom runs, runs for president, there'll be some explaining to do.

55:31I mean, how do you explain how do you explain marrying Kimberly Guilfoyle? You say, well, it was a mistake. I don't know. I don't know. she turned into she was a nice girl then I don't know

55:51we had a column in the Daily Beast this week which I urge you all to read by one of her former friends Jamie Floyd who said that she took when Kimberly left San Francisco and moved to New York they were hanging out together and Kimberly said to Jamie I'm going to leave Gavin and Jamie was like why why would you leave him You guys are a power couple in San Francisco. And she said this marriage isn't big enough for our two egos. She knew it. She knew it. Turns out the Hellenic Republic isn't big enough for her ego either. All right. So it's time for some questions, which I'm very excited to pour into.

56:35I've got the code word for this computer. And we've got some good questions actually here. Well, I tell you what we should do. We should have a quick update, two questions here about that, on your case with Melania. So for those of you who don't know, well, this is a home crowd. Michael is suing the first lady. Let me see if I can do this.

57:08And I suspect there are people in the audience that probably contributed to your legal fund. So, yes. Yeah. You may want to thank people. And I do. I am grateful every day. And this has really enabled us to become a real thorn in the side of the White House and the First Lady. So but just to summarize, I said something actually in a podcast that we did connecting Melania Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. In a matter of fact, it was actually relatively mild. I said that they were in the same social circle together. I also did say that Jeffrey Epstein said that the first time Melania and Donald Trump had sex together was on his airplane.

58:10Okay. At any rate, there arrived a letter from Melania Trump's lawyer, also a lawyer for her husband, the lawyer who does all of his media threats, threatening me with a$1 billion lawsuit. And in New York State, there are laws against this. They're called anti-slap laws. And we sued before she could sue us we sued her somebody in the in the somebody I know in the White House said to me said well no one saw that coming and now we are involved in a long Trump like legal fight which is that they their their strategy is to play this out as long as possible and to cost me as much money as possible.

59:16Confounding to them, again, is that we have raised so much money, and thank you everyone,

59:26that we are able so far at least to match them dollar for dollar. Now, the complicated. So right now at this this point in time, we sued them in state court. They moved this to federal court. The the the federal court judge dismissed part of this, but didn't rule on the actual the actual matter at hand. This is now being appealed in. We continue to argue this now in the Second Circuit, waiting for a ruling on that. Meanwhile, they have moved to sanction my lawyers, which is in one of those things that they moved. The judge said, well, hey, you know, if you move this, I'm probably going to rule against it.

1:00:27And you therefore set yourself up to be for them to move for sanctions against you. But they went forward with this anyway, just because that will cost another$100 ,000. So this is the Trump method on this. But again, thanks to you and to some 25 ,000 others, we have enough money and we will continue to pursue this.

1:01:06Okay. So there are lots of very, very good questions from people in the audience. I want to whip through some. And if I don't get to your question, I'm sorry, there's just so many. Very good question here from someone called Iko Allegria. Does Trump have a weakness? It's a very good question, I think. What is his weakness? In a way, I don't think he does, which goes to his own lack of self-awareness, lack of internal interior life. he's just a you know he's just a brutish presence I mean I suppose you could say his weakness is if we all stopped paying attention to him what would happen to Donald Trump without attention so another what was that?

1:02:08Haagen-Dazs more Haagen-Dazs All right. So a question here, a great question from Corey Dickinson. If Bannon hates Trump so much, why did he go to jail for him? Do you remember he went to jail for four months? Yeah, no, because Bannon, I mean, Bannon is one of the, I mean, I find him a really interesting person, an incredibly intelligent person, incredibly perceptive and insightful. I also find him the most opportunistic person I have ever in my life met. And so going to jail was his play for the MAGA base. I mean, Steve is also kind of messianic in a way. I mean, that he does have a kind of belief that maybe he should be president or he should be, he should be the MAGA movement he believes is his movement.

1:03:08So he was going to going to jail for the MAGA movement, not really for Trump, although he understands that that Trump is the is Trump. Trump is his is his way into them. He cannot alienate himself from Trump. And I've spent a lot of time trying to say to Steve Bannon, you know, you should just cut off, you should cut Trump. There are other populist candidates who you might well get elected president. Like Tucker Carlson? no well tucker and bannon don't are kind of more rivals than that um but i will say that i had an idea once i said to steve bannon i said i know who you can get elected president i have a candidate for you um and um a person who's incredible who's who's incredibly rich and beloved in his state and and a true populist at at heart um and this is my friend matt stone who's who's one of the the co-writers of south park and matt matt is a very deeply engaged with with with politics and i i find his his politics a very interesting blend of of you would not be able to say if he's a democrat or a republican and i thought this was a match and i had them to dinner and it was a disaster okay so we have another question here from someone who's just called left her name is Anna, but her email is Anna Graham, which is pretty good.

1:05:08She's saying, obviously, Trump 2.0, much more oppressive than Trump 1. During Trump 1, we know there were all sorts of people that went to the White House thinking they could put up guardrails. Is there anybody with good intentions still left in the Oval Office, or are they all there just helping themselves hand over fist. Yeah. I mean, that's it. I mean, there's nothing. You cannot say find any hopeful. Yeah, there is. I mean, this second administration is a what you see is what you get. So Thomas Seahusen wants to know, did you get security clearance when you were hanging out at the White House?

1:05:55Was that ever a thing? No, it was never a thing. Right. I mean, you don't really need security clearance. I mean, that's not. I mean, you need security clearance if you're getting a job, but Deputy Assistant Observer apparently didn't need that. I mean, it's actually not hard to get into the White House. You just need someone in the White House to, as they say, put you in the system. put you in the system. So Mars Holden Montini, what a marvelous name, wants to know, if the Democrats win the midterms, do you think Trump accepts it? Well, I think it's a question. By what measure do they win?

1:06:43There's a numerical threshold in which You know, there's not much you can do that just you're the numbers overwhelm any kind of resistance you could put up. If it's close, well, then it's going to be then it's trench warfare for for quite some time. Trench warfare. Will any of Trump's children turn on him? That is a question by from Aaron Gartland. What is Trump's relationship with his children? I mean, he didn't go to Don Jr.'s second wedding. He's their employer. I mean, I really think that is, they understand the money flows from there. The business is there. They don't have a separate life from that.

1:07:36He's the boss. um and and and i think that whatever the the psychological uh you know it's not pretty um you know he doesn't treat them well he doesn't regard them well you know um you know he thinks they're you know especially the boys are inferior um you know he went around for a while saying about about don jr he wished he could take his name back um i mean trump trump is not to say the least is not a nice guy i mean he's a prick um um i mean and certainly in the in the most basic way to his to his family to his children it's it's uh you know and i mean i think that they're all broken in their own way.

1:08:32I mean, I remember, and I may be the only person that read Ivana's memoir, in which she refers to herself as America's mother, where she basically talks about having the three children, Ivanka, Don, and Eric, and then basically at age 18, handing them over to Donald Trump and him taking them into the business. I mean, they went to college, but that he took them in and then sort of made them work for him. Do they like him? Do they respect him? Are they terrified of him? Yeah, no, I think that they're, you know, I mean, just imagine if your father was Donald Trump. I mean, having to put up with that, but at the same time, having to be being beholden to that.

1:09:21I mean, I think at some point you just, I mean, I guess you either flee and they haven't fled or you accept. What else can we do? So you have often said that the one person that got out of Trump One ahead was Jared Kushner. Can you talk about the son-in-law's role right now? I mean, I find it amazing that he seems to have been given this global, at-large, diplomatic role, which he does with his little chum, Steve Witkoff, the former golf buddy, who's being talked about now as a potential replacement for Susie Wiles. We haven't talked about Susie Wiles, actually. We should do that too. But let's just have a minute on Jared and Steve.

1:10:09You know, I mean, I said that Steve Bannon is the most opportunistic person I've ever met.

1:10:18But Jared is the most wildly opportunistic person I've ever met. I mean, you know, I used to think Jared was a kind of a weakling, not least of all because Bannon used to make fun of him in the White House in a particularly cruel kind of way. But at the end, I mean, Jared is really the only person who survived the first administration. And I think that he was the one person in the first administration who could work Trump, who could handle Trump, who understood him. And what he understood is, you know, you just had to, you could only do what, in his case, his father-in-law wasn't interested in doing.

1:11:13And he understood the margins at which you could then operate. And I think then he was intelligent enough to get out of the White House. And I think he is back in the White House now, or at least in the White House orbit, again, tending to his own business interests. And what about Steve Wyckoff? I mean, rumored to be a candidate to replace Susie Wiles if Susie Wiles goes. Steve Wyckoff is a real dummy. I mean, a real zero. I mean, he's he's, you know, you know, he's the golf buddy. I mean, what are his credentials? Golf buddy. So, I mean, in that sense, he'd be he might be, you know, he is the kind of the kind of chief of staff that Donald Trump wants, a chief of staff who has no pretense that he is there to do anything else but be the golf buddy.

1:12:16And is Susie Wiles, does Susie Wiles actually have, I mean, you've talked about her as not being a typical chief of staff, that she is more of an administrator. Does she keep things running on time? I mean, when she's not involved in decisions, it does feel like some of them go wrong. Most recently, Katie Zachariah, who Susie Wiles wasn't involved in, didn't know about and very quickly dispatched. Yeah, I don't see that as too exceptional. I mean, Donald Trump largely makes his own personal decisions. You know, the cabinet is filled with people Susie Wiles would not have picked and in her own way tried to oppose, but not too much oppose.

1:13:05And she understands, You just don't cross into Donald Trump's space. She is not there. You know, typically a chief of staff there is to be the president's ultimate advisor, to be a one of the president's managers, to be the to to be the the the second most important person in the White House. And she is not that at all and understands that's not what Donald Trump wants. All of the chiefs of staff of the four chiefs of staff of the first administration all kind of thought, well, I'm the chief of staff to the president of the United States. And this is what a chief of staff does. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

1:13:59And that's why Susie Wiles has been to date the most successful chief of staff, because it's all following a Jared model. And remember, she's brought into the Trump orbit by Jared. She's Jared's person. And it has all been, you know, you tend to things, you tend to the things that Trump is not interested in. Okay, so let's talk about Trump and women for a second, because we know that Melania is not really living in the White House. She's treated as if she's a guest when she's there. She's actually spending her time largely in New York or in Florida. Who is there? It's no marriage. It's a charade of a marriage.

1:14:49That sounded very English, a charade of a marriage. I expect you to go, it's a charade of a marriage. um anyway uh someone asked for more of my impressions i'm going to save that for more podcasts but thank you yuta for for asking more she wanted more melania impressions um he is only fire my husband is only fire of worlds wonderful um anyway natalie harp i mean Natalie Harp. Natalie Harp. Natalie Harp. So when you wrote All or Nothing, which came out, what, two months after Trump had been inaugurated second time around, and I know you were frantically writing the book because we would talk in between you taking breaths, you kept saying there is this woman who is just there all the time.

1:15:40Just are we assuming, and we've certainly talked about this on the podcast, that Trump is, well, you've said that people at the White House assume he's post-sex. Yeah, I mean. I feel as a former editor of Cosmo, I can raise this legitimately. But it's an interesting question. He's 80 years old. He's in his ninth decade. He's got swollen ankles. He's got strange bruises on his hand that he smothers in makeup. He's got... Let's not forget 300 pounds. Well, he says... Well, he's put on 15 pounds in the last year, right? He says he's 238 pounds or something, but we know he's not. Okay, let's just assume on the basis of good taste that Trump is post-sex.

1:16:34What is Natalie Hart doing there?

1:16:41did everybody hear that at the back

1:16:47yeah i um

1:16:52i i i mean i think you know and there was so so during the campaign she started to become a kind of significant presence around trump early in the campaign and then became a more and more and more and more central presence. And I think it was all about this kind of, she's in love with the guy. She's lovesick. I mean, these letters and the people in the staff passed me these letters that they had. She used to put letters, she would print out his stuff, the human printer. And then in this material that she would print, she would insert these letters that she had written to him. And this became a subject of great concern by the staff, by the Secret Service.

1:17:52I mean, at one point, the Secret Service said to the staff essentially said to Susie Wiles, you know, we consider her a threat to the president and to herself. So what does that actually mean, that she'd be a threat to the president? She means she's a crazy person. And she's kind of recognized, everybody recognized there's something really off here. And that was of enormous concern. And how did she get into his circle in the first place? I mean, it's not like you can just go up to the president. It is like you can just go up to the president. I mean, it's a sort of just a competition of flattery.

1:18:39Who can flatter this man more than anyone else? It's a contest. And she won the contest. I mean, because I think deeply, I think it's a lot of people around him are flattering him for cynical reasons. I don't think her reasons are cynical. I think her reasons are she's devoted to him. She's somehow fixated on Donald Trump, imagine. And she makes this very, very clear. And I think he understands that this person is devoted. So people during the campaign, there will be at several points, it was, this is an emergency. What do we do about this? And there was long discussions. Do we go to Melania? Do we go to the president, the candidate, which they finally did?

1:19:46There was at one point a delegation. And speaking in somewhat of the veiled way, you would have to speak to them because you certainly can't confront Donald Trump. And he said, oh, you know, you know, and then his words were, she just loves her president. I mean, it's I think that this is one of those other things. This is over a line beyond the pale, something that that everyone within the White House has been forced to accept because because he wants it. And how do you think it might end if she's genuinely in love with him? And if she is, it's clearly a very unusual relationship. How do you think it might end?

1:20:44I think she'll go back to Mar-a-Lago with him after he leaves the White House. And, you know, I don't know, live out her life with or live out his life. I don't know. I mean, at the same time, remember Donald Trump, even someone who adores him and who he's come to count on, that could change in a second. And we know that Melania is not there, that you say the marriage is a charade. Does Melania mind about Natalie Hart? Yeah, I think it's just part of the many grievances that Melania has against her husband, of course. Okay, so there's a question here. I love this question. Wait a minute, where's it gone?

1:21:34It said Michael in the 10 years since you've been covering the White House Was there a moment when you realized we are really fucked?

1:21:47Let me count them

1:21:53Yeah, you know but it but it becomes I

1:22:00Mean I guess in the first in the first administration, it might have been actually quite early on when people around Trump would discuss it and say, you know, he doesn't read anything really. And they would say nothing. And then there would be a kind of discussion, well, you know, was he ADD or was he semi-literate or was he just actually completely illiterate? Because nothing, you would hand them a piece of paper, shove it away, this gesture, just wave it away. And so these people in the White House saying, I mean, he's the president of the United States, this is the most information intensive job on earth, arguably.

1:22:58And he doesn't read. And then they say, but that's not the only problem. The other problem is that he doesn't listen. And they would say, he doesn't listen at all. There is no, you just can't interrupt him. It's just a constant monologue. So he didn't read and he doesn't listen. How do you get information to him? And the answer is he gets no information. I mean, it just doesn't come. As a matter of fact, Steve Bannon had an analysis. He said he's an information phobe. He just doesn't want to know. And he certainly doesn't want you to tell him. So I thought, you know, this is pretty bad. And is that because he just always wants to be the smartest man in the room?

1:23:57Well, I think it's, no, I mean, I think it's far different. There's a lot of people who want to be that and a lot of presidents who no doubt felt that they were the smartest man in the room. I think that he wants not to be the dumbest man in the room. So it's a different, it's kind of turns that on its head. I mean, here's a man who I think really, really knows nothing. I mean, profoundly so. No information gets to him. Everything is made up. Everything comes from him. So it's his entire conception of the world that comes out. And it's a conception of the world that is not in any way schooled or disciplined or ordered or informed.

1:24:53Well, you are disciplined and informed, Michael Wolff. Someone here, someone called Kate said, I see Michael needs much less editing in real life. And in fact, you don't need almost any editing, even when we are editing the podcast. I know we joke about it, but I think that you get a sense from, I hope, our conversation, that the conversations we have on the podcast three times a week where we venture inside Trump's head or spelunk inside Trump's head. For those of you who joined us right at the beginning, we'll know that we start conversations, they go where they go. And I hope that you've had the opportunity to sort of see that this evening.

1:25:38I wanted to just say we are hugely grateful to the people who do listen and watch us week after week. It's It's enormously encouraging for us to know that you are out there. And please leave us your comments. Those of you in the room, you get Thursday off because we'll be running this evening. Or you can listen to it on Thursday and see if you can hear your own laugh or your own heckle. And you can see if I've been edited. You can see if you've been edited. I don't think you've said anything that would trigger the lawyers. Sometimes Michael says things and the lawyers are like, whoa. But I think tonight you've been on best behavior.

1:26:21But this is an opportunity for us to thank you for being such loyal supporters, for leaving your comments and for encouraging us to go inside Trump's head. So a huge thanks to you, to our production team, and to the staff of the Terragram Ballroom. Is there anyone else? I'm sure. Yeah, I feel like there are more people to thank. But a big shout out to the staff of the Terragram Ballroom who made all this go relatively flawlessly. I think it's a lovely room. It's very nice sitting up here. and well we'll be back at it and thank you to Joanna Coles I'd hear it

1:27:16someone asked me what it says on my teacher and it just says blondie so this is for all the blondes out there Michael I think we're due to leave the stage thank you all so much for coming out

1:27:32Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many B-Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.