Why Loser Trump Melted Down In Front of Me: Wolff

0:00Sitting there, and by the way, it goes on for a long time. And one of these sessions may have gone on for two hours. You just don't know what to say. I mean, he looks strange. His eyes go, you know, kind of bulge. You're afraid. You kind of hold your breath. He's off his rocker. I mean, we have a president of the United States who is mentally ill. A president of the United States who cannot perceive reality. I think it's important to understand what we're saying here, that the United States government is run by a madman. And no doubt this goes in and out. The 2020 election is clearly an obsession that he cannot get clarity on.

0:42He cannot see the truth there. Unwilling to see, I don't even think it's just unwilling, unable to see the truth there.

0:54Michael. Joanna, how's the weather? Smoke? I will say, I actually, if I start coughing during this podcast, it's because I do feel I have been impacted by the Canadian smoke that's been lingering over New York City. How could you not? I mean, it's kind of been extraordinary. And out here at the beach where you would think we would get some respite, it's been thick. Yeah, thick is the right word. There was the most gorgeous framing of the sun set that we could see from the Daily Beast office on Thursday night, but it felt almost quasi-apocalyptic, actually. The air was so thick, it was so hard to breathe.

1:38After my various hip operations, I've been back on my bicycle cycling around New York, but I actually felt slightly chest constriction-y, actually, after getting off the bike. I think that this will become a reasonable pretext then to invade Canada. Well, let's hope that it doesn't become smoke season in New York and this becomes a regular thing. So we have a lot to get through today, not least Trump's speech and ABC and NBC's refusal to carry it. We have J.D. Vance and a three hour long conversation of him laying out what I think we saw was Vance-ism on Joe Rogan's podcast. Do you just let me ask you just a little digression here.

2:25Do people really listen to Joe Rogan for three hours? Well, I think they have it on the background. Right. Are you suggesting that we should go to three hours? And would they listen to us for three hours? Could we go on? Actually, we probably could. It's possible that Joe Rogan actually doesn't stop, that he's like an explosive conversational conveyor belt where people just jump on for three hours, jump off. He keeps going and someone else jumps on. It's possible that Joe Rogan is never knowingly silent. It's a particular right of center skill, I think. I mean, Rush Limbaugh, remember, I always used to find Rush mesmerizing.

3:12He would just go on and on and on without a breath, without a pause and without a doubt. And without a doubt. Well, Tucker Carlson does the same thing, right? He just starts talking and off he goes. No, but actually Tucker needs a guest and he also then will pause. I mean, there's all those Tucker kind of laughs, mugging. You know, it's not as much like an engine as some of these guys. Anyway. I like a guest too. I like having someone to talk to. I like having you to talk to, Michael. I would find it very odd just to be talking into the black hole of the camera stream of weird consciousness. But anyway, I should just say for those of you who have joined us today on Inside Trump's Head, a place we go three times a week.

4:09We would love you to subscribe to Inside Trump's Head or the Daily Beast podcast. We are independent media. It's why we have these conversations. And we really appreciate your support. But Michael, I thought that we could give listeners and viewers some inspiration of how to start their mornings. So I normally have the ability right after drop-off to sit by the ocean. I live here in Miami and meditate as the sun rises. And I'll pray, I'll reflect, I'll think. I keep that beautiful moment in my day as sort of an anchor to both offer sort of thanks and gratitude to God and the universe, but also to reflect on what my priorities are for the day ahead.

4:58Do you think it's a Jewish God, is what I want to know. Well, it's definitely a Jewish God because she... Well, I don't know. She might slip back. You know, it might be. We don't know whose God that is. Well, we do know that she converted. But what I want to know is, how do you start your day, Michael? Because I start my day with an avalanche, a Niagara Falls of news about the damage her father is doing. Well, it actually makes me feel guilty because I, too, could go to the beach and watch the sunrise. But I do not. And but but perhaps I should. Maybe she's right. How long did she say she said 90 minutes?

5:45That's a long time. I mean, 90 minutes, you might as well just give up the day. I just I love it. But what I'm struck by is the, and this is my old English high school education coming out, but rereading a little bit of King Lear recently, I was just reminded of how Ivanka, who was so present during the first couple of years of the first administration, has completely extricated herself from the second administration. She said that politics was far too cruel a business for her to stay in. And she's withdrawn. And it made me think of the King Lear quote about one of his daughters, how sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child.

6:37And it just made me think of, frankly, of Donald Trump as the mad king. Well, yeah, it's interesting because I think it's probably a more specific signal that has been sent by both Ivanka and Jared, their absence from this administration, which is that in the first administration, they really went in thinking they could exercise some restraint or some control over Donald Trump. And I think that they decided that didn't work. And this administration is most characterized by the people around him accepting the fact that there is no restraint, that they really have no power over him, that no one does, that he is the mad king.

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8:16It helps block annoying ads, trackers, and malicious websites while you're on the go, which can even help cut down on data usage. And if you travel often, you can earn credits towards future plans and even unlock perks like airport lounge access. Download Saley in the app store or by scanning the QR code on this screen. Use code BEAST at checkout to get 15 % off your first purchase. The details are in the podcast episode description box. You saw that, I thought, on Thursday when the shot pulled back and you saw Donald Trump behind the podium and then you saw this semicircle of sycophants of his cabinet sitting there knowing, as John Ossoff so articulately put it in the Jay Clayton hearings, that we know, that you know, that this entire room knows that his idea that somehow he won the 2020 election is a delusion.

9:23It is a delusion. Yeah, I'm confused by that because that seems to imply that he knows and that he knows it's a delusion, then it would be not a delusion. It would be a strategy or a piece of just a cynical understanding of everything, which I don't think is true. I mean, I may be one of the few people who actually believes – well, I'm not one of the – that's wrong. I think everyone around him understands, in fact, that he absolutely believes this. No one else believes it. No one else believes that he won the 2020 election. But he does believe it. And that, to me, is actually the kind of the scarier thing, the larger thing than that this is another way for him to try to manipulate the election or another way for him to to set up a rationale for losing the election.

10:30that there is mental illness here. And it's kind of a result of his paranoia, his resentments, his insecurity,

10:44his inability to appreciate reality, I think you might most accurately say. But what is so confusing looking at it? is why is he saying this is about China and why when the US is back, I think on its fourth day of bombing Iran, is he reopening this wound? I mean, he's won an election since then. Yes, because he's a nutter. Because it's an obsessive thing in his mind. Again, this is another description of why you have to see this as an illness, that he can't get away from this. This does no good for him. And I think we've seen in the reaction of other Republicans, this is a political negative for him.

11:41And yet he pursues it because he can't not pursue it. And I've actually sat with him. I mean, very clearly sat across the table from him and heard him go on at length about this. Okay, so I'm going to stop you there because I actually spotted something in your sub stack, which I wanted to read, which I think addresses this very point. On two occasions, I've sat with him as he has outlined his case for the stolen election. All his hurt on display. It's an obsessive recitation of numbers that he's been told and then revised to his own specifications of strange things that happened. he's been told in the night of fragments of information that might easily be disputed or corrected but have long since lodged in his head it's a kind of delirium i i i was i i haven't in doing this i just did not know how to react sitting there and by the way it goes on for a long time.

12:55And one of these sessions may have gone on for two hours. You just don't know what to say. I mean, he looks strange. His eyes go, you know, kind of bulge. And you're afraid. You kind of hold your breath. This is craziness. I mean, I can't see this in any other way. And I think almost anybody would react in a similar fashion to the way I reacted. I don't know what to do here. This is something that is, something is broken, something is off. And I think everybody around him understands this, understands this, believes that they have to humor it, believes that this just exists. You know, yes, this is crazy, but he was elected the president.

13:50He is the president. So therefore, we are in some way stuck with this craziness. Now, Michael, what would happen? What would have happened if you just said, you know, that nobody else believes this, right? You know, I mean, I think I would have hoped that by this point I've described the way Donald Trump operates, that there is no facility or capacity for contradicting him in this way, that that would that that would stop right there. I mean, either he would stop listening to you, walk away, or in fact, he just doesn't hear it. And I think literally, I mean, I think no one has. I mean, in those days after the election in 2020, there was almost everyone in the White House in some way tried to tell him that he had to stop this, that this was that he had lost the election, that even if he could isolate instances where where there might be a legitimate dispute, none of those disputes would overcome the numbers themselves.

15:13He lost the election and no one could get through to him on this. And they all, virtually everyone of some legitimate standing around him left the White House, including, by the way, Jared and Ivanka. And then he ushered in this other group of wackadoos, including Rudy Giuliani and a whole retinue of others who are still now in the wings feeding him. And those are people who are just themselves mad or completely cynical. And then this began. And, you know, again, it was in 2021 when he left the White House, there was a widespread consensus, and this is throughout the Republican Party, that this was OK.

16:10This was, thank God, this is over with because he is he was out of it. OK, so does this, I wonder how this plays with the voters as we roll up to the midterms. I mean, you know, people have said widely, oh, this is his election campaign, that the election is going to be stolen, that it's all rigged. But your point that he's actually mad was also reflected by Gavin Newsom in a post. Let's just play that post. Well, the only thing missing tonight in Donald Trump's speech was tinfoil. This was a legitimate 25th Amendment moment. The ramblings of a mad king. Don't get me wrong. Foreign interference in our elections.

16:59That's a real thing. Nothing about what you watched tonight, though, was real. It's make believe. He wants to rig the election in 2026. He knows he's going to lose. He needs to rig the election before one vote was cast. He's making two points here. The president is a nutter. The president is mad. And the president is trying to manipulate the election, which would indicate actually that he's not mad, that he knows what he's doing. Right, that he's highly manipulative and effective. Yes. Now, of course, two things can be true at the same time. And I believe that that's probably an example. But the latter obscures the former, which I believe is the larger issue.

17:49He's off his rocker. I mean, we have the president of the United States who is mentally ill, who cannot perceive reality. That is, I mean, let's think of that. A president of the United States who cannot perceive reality. Um, I, I, the, and then we can extend that to say, how can we predict what a crazy man will do? And then I think you might get into the, the second part of, of Newsom's statement that he might do anything. his delusion, his inability to perceive reality might well become the justification. His madness becomes the justification for trying to interfere with the election or steal the election, which happened in 2020, actually.

18:46But let's not lose sight. It's the kind of thing, you know, and it's so difficult. It's so difficult to focus on the fact that the president of the enormity of this, that the president of the United States might be mad. What do we do about this? The 25th Amendment, yeah, he throws that off. Well, that's not going to happen. So that there is no mechanism here. He is the president of the United States and he is mad, cannot appreciate reality. Well, I think one person who might have insight into this and realizes that his boss is mad is J.D. Vance. And we mentioned the three-hour interview he did with Joe Rogan.

19:30But what was clear in that interview was how Vance was trying very hard to thread a needle to say, yes, I'm loyal to the president, but I'm actually laying out some differences in our situations here. But he's just running for president himself. He's setting that up. There's no indication that he understands and certainly would be willing to act on the fact that here is a man who he works for who he might reasonably perceive as off his fucking rocker. So how does the 25th Amendment, were it to be enacted, how does it happen? What is needed for that? I mean, well, I, you know, I've gone over this many times because it has obviously come up before.

20:29And I think it seems so remote, the possibilities of this happening being so not going to happen that I forget the details. But the details, I think it's basically it involves a vote of the cabinet. He's not necessarily removed from office until he can demonstrate that he's recovered, which would be an interesting thing. And he'll do the mental test again and he'll know the… Well, he'll ace it. He'll ace the mocha test. He'll know leg, shoe, white, school, tomato, whatever the words are that we usually forget. um so is there any way out of this the most powerful nation on the world is led by your word a nutter how how do we extricate ourself how do we come we don't that's the point we do not there is no way to do this i mean how is it managed though i mean what is the i mean what's terrifying here is where it could end yeah i mean it could end literally anywhere um he's He's this is I mean, let's go.

21:49I think it's important to understand what we're saying here, that the United States government is run by a madman, a man who cannot perceive reality. And no doubt this goes in and out. But the 2020 election is clearly an obsession that he cannot get clarity on. He cannot see the truth there. Unwilling to see. I don't even think it's unwilling. Unable to see the truth there. So I don't know what happens. I mean, it's just about the worst situation you can possibly think of. And we are in it. Now, let's directly, so the direct question is, how will this impact the midterm elections? I tend to think that he will try to impact this.

22:49This speech is an effort to do this. This speech is an effort to get this Save America Act passed, which apparently will not happen. So he is mad enough. Maybe this is the good news. He is mad enough to do things that are essentially counterproductive. He can't accomplish his goals because he's mad. And people stand back from him and say, oh, OK, yeah. So that's the good news. But the bad news is that this could become extreme, that he could step in, that he could do things, use his power in a way that violates the law and that the law is not strong enough to stand up to or the law takes too long to stand up to what he does unilaterally.

23:49Well, you know who's not put off by this? Natalie Harp. Natalie Harp has been trotting around beside the president. She was with him in Pennsylvania. She was with him at Trump Tower. And she was with him at the UN where he discussed soccer with, as he's being known now, Sikofantino, the head of FIFA. And it led me to think, where is Melania in all this? We haven't seen Melania since July the 4th. Where does she go, Michael? Where does she go? Well, two things. Natalie Harp is always with him. So it doesn't, it's not, you don't have to point out when she is with him. The answer is she is always with him.

24:33She is by his side. The one person constantly by his side. And as for Melania, we don't have to ask that either. It's a marriage that does not exist in any conventional sense. That conventional sense being that the two married people spend time together because they don't. And where is she? She's in New York. She's in Trump Tower. But how is it possible? Does she never leave Trump Tower? I mean, you never have sightings of her. She's never spotted. What is she doing? Is she a shut-in? Well, this is another thing. Is she a shut-in in Trump Tower? No, no, no. But this is another another thing. You know, I found it intriguing that this New York Times book about the regime change, the Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan book.

25:25Exactly. Does not mention or barely mentions Melania. And I mean, she, which is interesting because she is a vital, important question to this administration within the White House. it's always a major worry. Melania, what is she doing? Because nobody knows what she's doing. What might she do? Well, she has enormous power if she uses it to do all kinds of things that might be destabilizing to the White House. But this book, that book doesn't deal with this because, and there are really two reasons, there is this kind of convention, news, traditional news convention that you don't make the president's spouse or his minor children issues.

26:25It's just a kind of bubble of privacy, even though you obviously have a marriage here that's very, very problematic. I mean, in the first administration, you know, everybody was aware that she wasn't living in the White House, but nobody in the news media really went to figure out where she lives. Likewise, likewise now. But the other side of this, too, is that everybody's afraid of her. She, you know, she has this, or the White House has, we don't actually know where this is coming from, the White House has a legal machine that will come after you. That is the thing. Do not let anyone try to peel back whatever this story really is.

27:09And, you know, people are afraid of that. That gives us a moment to just find out where are you in your case with Melania? The Trump federal judge has dismissed the case but not ruled on the merits of the case. So we are now appealing that ruling to the Second Circuit. We expect to prevail on that. It also might mean that we go back to state court because there isn't a rule. And so it becomes a kind of complicated issue. Meanwhile, they are asking us for asking the court to level sanctions against my lawyer. So there's a lawyer in Florida by the name of Alejandro Brito who does most of these, handles most of the libel litigation.

27:59Now, he in turn has just been a federal judge in Florida, has referred him to the Florida Bar for disciplinary proceedings because he filed the lawsuit against the IRS, Trump against the IRS. The slush fund case, the 1.8 billion slush fund case. Yes, which this judge, this federal judge deemed to be an abuse of the process here, because the president of the United States cannot reasonably sue himself. So at any rate, this lawyer has moved for sanctions against my lawyers, and this now becomes a tributary on this case, the sanctions dispute. The federal judge has said, well, she's going to rule against Trump and this lawyer and then has suggested that them filing this suit is cause for us to file, to ask for sanctions against them.

29:16So the whole point, and this is a Trump litigation point, this will now go on. They will file their requests for sanctions. They will be overruled. They will go to the Second Circuit. They will be overruled. That will go then to the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, costing us, you know, another, you know,$100 ,000,$200 ,000. That's their play. Right. That's their play. And actually, the judge in Miami's decision against allowing the$1.8 billion slush fund was a scathing report. It got somewhat buried in the news because there's just been so much going on. But you did see John Cornyn, and I think we discussed this on Thursday, filleting Todd Blanche about this and asking whether or not the slush fund, which in theory is supposed to go to people who think that the justice system has been weaponized against them, including possibly the January 6th protesters, that it's been well and truly laid to rest.

30:26And Todd Blanch actually couldn't assure him of that. He said it had been laid to rest, but actually nothing's been signed. There's no paperwork to shut it down completely. And John Cornyn, senator from Texas, who, as we've repeatedly reminded people, has been primaried by Trump. And now Texas voters are going to have the choice between James Tallarico, the Democrat seminarian, or the corrupt Ken Paxton, former AG. He was the one most effective against Todd Blanche. Yeah, Texas AG. Yeah, no, where to begin with the extraordinary aspects of virtually everything that you have just said. So maybe we should just pass over and go on to something.

31:15We can pass over it, but I will recommend reading it to people. It's a sort of 50-page report, and it is utterly scathing of this case and the foolishness of bringing it and the outrage of a$1.8 billion slush fund to compensate Donald Trump. Before we move on from the speech, let's call it the totally deranged speech, there was a detail in the speech where he went after the networks, ABC and NBC, for not carrying the speech. A speech which, by the way, had little or no news value. And the networks have always run this balance. Is this a political speech or is this a speech of involving critical information for the nation?

32:10And they try to reasonably balance that. Clearly, this was absolutely a political speech. And ABC and NBC decided not to run it. No, and their cable affiliates, by the way, did run it. It's not as if people could not get access to this speech. This was not closed down at all. But the major networks, ABC and NBC, decided not to run it. But there was one network, of course, that did run it, and that's CBS, which is, or we should now call it the Ellison's CBS. CBS has been taken over by the family of Larry Ellison, the tech billionaire 100 times, 200 times over, who is one of the pillars of the president's support.

33:09We haven't actually discussed how Trump appeared in that speech. And I thought he appeared, just appeared exhausted. And in fact, Hugh Doherty, our executive editor, pointed out that the only time he really came to life was when he was actually attacking ABC and NBC and saying that they should have their licenses withdrawn. That was when he showed a moment of high tea, as Pete Hegseth would probably refer to it, a testosterone moment where he suddenly came to life. I thought you were going somewhere, some British thing, a high tea reference. I wish he was indulging in scones instead of whatever he's indulging in.

33:49But he seemed bored by his own speech. He seemed bored by it. It must be this, as you've said, it just sort of runs through his head all the time. Well, no, I'll tell you why he seemed bored with it. because there's a whole group of people in the White House who are trying to put some guard, who tried to put some guardrails on that speech, who tried, you know, and it's, believe me, it's heavy lifting to impose some, some at least shallow rationality on it. And he actually comes alive when you get rid of all that, when it's just ranting and raving and him waving weird numbers around. When he comes alive, when he is really able to show the full extent of his madness.

34:46Well, and of course, he didn't have his regular teleprompter guy there because he's been whisked away for basically trading on Kalshi, where he was making prediction bets on what Donald Trump was going to talk about. But I thought, how high must his stress have been? I think his name's Gabriel Perez, when he was operating the teleprompter, knowing that in all likelihood, Trump was at any moment about to veer wildly off the script in front of him and start extemporizing on his crazy weaves. Anyway, he's on unpaid leave. he's been suspended from the White House. I think he's actually avoided being charged.

35:32But clearly all sorts of shenanigans that the teleprompter operator is getting in on the grift. Well, everyone is getting in on the grift, obviously. And we should, there's a new level of grift that has come up. I mean, this one is really, I mean, of all the grifts, which, I mean, this one really, I think, is... You know, the only people that aren't getting in on the grift, Michael, are the American people. The American people are not getting in on the grift. Well, here's an opportunity. They're being offered an opportunity to get in on... How do I know this is not a real opportunity? Go on. On the grift.

36:14So, truth social. Every time I say truth, I want to kind of knock my head against the wall. So, truth social... Untruth social. It's a social media network started by Donald Trump. The point about social media networks is this, you know, is the network effect. That a social media network succeeds because it attracts so many people. It's irresistible because everybody is a part of it. And Truth Social, that social network, has only one person on it, which is Donald Trump. And as I've said before, throughout the campaign, the Trump staff was grateful for the fact that his mad ravings on truth social were not seen by anybody because nobody was on it.

37:09So, but they are now seen by many people because he's the president of the United States. What he posts on Truth Social will then be echoed throughout the media. And it has major effects. I mean, what they say is that these are market moving comments. When Trump says something, the stock market reacts. Okay. Therefore, this is of what he says there can be of real value to someone, to someone who can anticipate what he's going to say, which is basically what the teleprompter guy did. He had the information before anyone else. Now, what Truth Social is offering people the opportunity, anybody, us, anybody, to pay for access to Trump's posts before other people.

38:08Therefore, you will have this information on a semi-exclusive basis, and then you can do what you want. You can potentially trade on it before other people. So let's get the nature of this grift. You give money to Donald Trump so that you can have an advantage over other investors in the stock market. Well, it's outrageous. It's basically asking people to pay to get the president's new policy statements. He's monetizing his platform as the president. And these are things that he should just be able to put out there. He's the president. He should say these things. We should all have access to it.

39:00I really think it's an extraordinary development. And actually, it's also you say we could take advantage of it it's preposterous on every basis it's preposterous on every basis and it's no surprise that the teleprompter operator was thinking well i want to get into this but i just i cannot imagine his his anxiety listening to the president expecting him to go off uh off piste at any moment on the teleprompter and his bet being worthless You know, there is just a flag, one thing which we should keep our eyes on. If, in fact, the midterms are successful for the Democrats in the House and then also possibly in the Senate, the grift will become a focus.

39:51It doesn't seem as much of a focus as I would have thought it should do. Well, I think that one of the reasons that there isn't, A, because there's so much of it, but B, there's no way to deal with it. You know, that's what you have. You have a Congress who won't step in and exert any kind of supervision over the behavior of the president. Meanwhile, Michael, the other thing I found odd about him doing this speech on Thursday night is we are a country. It was, I think, our fourth day bombing Iran. The Strait of Hormuz is in effect closed. I think 10 ships got out yesterday. day. And what was interesting about listening to J.D.

40:46Vance on Joe Rogan was him talking about Iran and making it clear that he wasn't in favor of it, which we know, but reemphasizing that. Let's hear the clip. If it was your call, would you have done exactly the same thing? Well, what did the president said publicly that J.D. was less enthusiastic about it, I think was the exact phrase that he used. I mean, my attitude towards this man, as you know, is the vice president. I'm not a public commentator. Like my job is to give the best advice I can to the president of the United States. I think he's said a little bit about what that advice was. But once the president makes a decision, so long as I think that it's, you know, legal and ethical and all that stuff, and I certainly think whether you agree or disagree with it, what we've done has been legal.

41:35My attitude towards it is I try to make it a successful as possible. He says he's not a public commentator. All he does is comment in public. No, I think it's pretty notable here what's going on. I mean, we're at this at some point in the second terms, you always flip over into the lame duck, into a lame duck mode. Into lame duckery. You know, the president is going. His power is draining out. Someone has to replace him. And I think that competition is beginning now. And I'd also take this as an indication, as a Vance indication that he thinks they're going to lose the midterms in a substantial way.

42:23It starts now. It's not starting after the midterms. I think from the Vance point of view, it is also seeing the Iran situation as worsening, critical, dire. Here is not only a war that was a bad idea to begin with, now it's a war that you can't get out of. And that war is going to be around Donald Trump's neck, but it's going to also be around the neck of anybody in this administration, including J.D. Vance. So he's peddling as fast as he can. peddling as fast as he can. I listened to two hours of this three-hour conversation, and I did come away with a new appreciation of J.D. Vance's articulation.

43:08But I thought there was something masterful when Joe Rogan asked him that question, would you do the same thing? That J.D. Vance put into the president's mouth, actually, J.D. Vance's stance. So he goes, Well, I think the president said that, you know, this was whatever he said specifically, this was not my idea. But I thought it was masterful the way he did that. So he didn't have to say, I thought it was a crazy idea that we go into Iran, that we start bombing the hell out of them. He said, well, I think the president told you. I just thought it was a very smart piece of sort of avoidery, actually.

43:55The calculation here on Vance's part, and this is threading the needle, is that Trump, he will not rouse Trump's ire for his equivocation. And because that, as soon as that happens, and that very easily could happen, then J.D.'s chances for the nomination, the Republican nomination, plummet. Well, and that's my point, that he very cleverly put into the president's mouth the president describing J.D. Vance as not having been entirely on board for the Iran war. And then, of course, he says, well, I did my best once the decision was made. I did my best to make sure that it happened effectively. Yeah, Trump may be mad, but he's not a dummy, especially when it comes to issues of loyalty and betrayal.

44:47So if he smells a fish here, a rotten fish, he will, he'll, you know, I mean, I would say he makes it, Trump makes an effort to do the political thing and then he can't make the effort anymore and you're screwed. Well, I wonder if he'll make the effort to actually listen to it, though. I mean, perhaps Natalie Hart will just print out for him. That's exactly what Natalie will do. That's exactly her job. And she will say, and that's actually an interesting subtext. What are Natalie Harp's views of J.D.? And it's very possible that her views are not positive. And then she will undermine J.D. with Trump.

45:40I wonder if Laura Loomer has tried to undermine J.D. Vance with Trump. Laura Loomer, who is this fringe figure, seems to have a strangely effective impact on Trump. She's gotten several people fired. I would also like to know, in fact, we should do an episode on this. What do the important people around Trump think about J.D. Vance? And are they sowing poison about J.D. Vance to Donald Trump? Right. And just let me say that your description of Laura Loomer as a fringe person, it's the fringe people who have the influence with Trump. OK, so another place where J.D. Vance puts a wedge in between him and Donald Trump is talking about the release of the Epstein files on Joe Rogan.

46:36Let's actually play that clip, too. Again, like, say this with all candor, like, we absolutely screwed up the comms of the Epstein files, like we just did. But do I think the reason we screwed up the comms is because we were trying to hide something? No. We screwed up the comms. We screwed up the comms. I would say, I'd emphasize with all, yes, with all due candor. When somebody says with all due candor, you know that it's, there is, it's the opposite. There's no candor. There's no candor. um yeah no again and here here here too i mean i think i think jd i think we can start to make book on when jd is going to be um incur the wrath of donald trump um because he's distancing himself on all of these key issues and these are all mega issues by the by the way so again it's trying to speak to that to that base um but we know the mega base doesn't want forever wars and and we've got Iran.

47:35So he's separating himself from that. And now we've got the Epstein files, something the MAGA base and many of the cabinet, you think of Kash Patel, you think of Dan Bongino, former deputy of the FBI who left earlier this year, demanding the release of the Epstein files. And then you've got JD very much saying with all candor that the release of them was a mess. He then goes on to throw Pam Bondi under the bus, which is a bit late because she's already been under the bus and been reversed back over. No, and I found that there's later on in that clip, basically, J.D. Vance says that Epstein was an intelligence asset of the Israelis and of the Americans.

48:24Now, he puts this in speculative terms, which is curious because he's the vice president of the United States, so I guess he would know. But he clearly isn't saying that, probably because actually he doesn't know, likely because it actually isn't even true. Okay. There was another point he made, too, about the awful Michelle Obama is a man joke at the UFC. You remember Joe Rogan was interviewing one of the fighters and he said Michelle Obama is a man. No, and I, by the way, have heard the president, Trump, make this joke and go on at length about her big shoulders. And what do you think? Don't you think this kind of extraordinary again?

49:20OK, well, let's hear J.D. Vance passing it now. What an amped up fighter told a joke after a fight, said something after a fight. And that's actually national news. I'm still surprised. I've been in politics now for three, four years. I'm still shocked the shit that people get really fired up about. Well, I kind of understand it because it's at the White House, first of all. I want to flag one thing there that was I've been in politics for three or four years. I know. I was thinking that, too. I hadn't noticed that when we cut that clip. I hadn't actually focused on that. But what are your thoughts on him saying that?

49:58um well as as i say i mean i have always thought that that was a that the that the big news here is not a yeah it's not a fighter i mean that was a you know i mean i don't think the ufc shouldn't have had a fight at the white house if you're going to have the ufc at the white house you're going to have ufc fighters who are um um you know i mean i don't know what they are but But that is what the president of the United States has said over and over and over again. Michelle Obama is a man. If she, I call her Mike because she's a man, because haven't you ever seen those shoulders? Who gets shoulders like that?

50:39She's really a man. And he says it in the way you think, oh, my God, does he actually believe this? Well, actually, Barack Obama, Michelle's husband, actually had something to say about J.D. Vance and his family, his wife, on Malcolm Gladwell's podcast this week. When you have the vice president, the current vice president, making a speech that is basically a blood and soil version of we the people. That, you know, it matters who your parents were and how long they've been here, despite him being married to an immigrant, daughter of an immigrant himself. Thoughts? You know my thoughts about Barack Obama.

51:25You know, why not more? Why not on top of all of these issues? Yeah, you could say something about J.D. Vance, but you could have said something over months and months and months of this. So I'm mystified by Barack Obama's reticence reticence on the fact that this country is being led by these people. Okay. Well, we will be back on Tuesday. I'm sure the earth will have turned and there'll be more podcasts to discuss, more J.D. Vance hawking his book Communion. We should come back and do a special issue on J.D. Vance. Yeah, let's definitely do that. I mean, he's kind of a fascinating character actually because he clearly isn't stupid as many other people surrounding the president are.

52:25Yeah. And as he says, he's only been in politics for three or four years. What else can he succeed at just doing it for three or four years? I wonder if that's a tested kind of calling card. I'm not an insider. I've only been here for, you know, 10 minutes. I really don't know anything about politics. who's been a politician or, you know, who's been... Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. But yeah, that probably is true. Yeah, that he's deliberately positioning himself still as a quasi-outsider. Before we go, I just want to flag that Andy Burnham is, as we've discussed before, been on this story, is shortly to become the prime minister of your country.

53:11And let's just ask the question, because I think it's a reasonable and important political question. Can a smile solve everything? Well, it's possible a smile can solve everything. I'm not saying that it—yes, no, I think it's a— in New York City, we have a mayor whose smile is, for the moment, solving everything. Yes, and Mamdani agreed not to have an increase in his salary. I thought that was a very clever piece of manoeuvring. When asked if he was going to take what he was entitled to as an increase in his salary, he came back with a very good response, which must have been tested, which is when I was going door to door, no one was concerned about the mayor not being paid enough, and I'm not either.

54:03But Andy Burnham is an interesting politician in Britain. And this will be, I think, the seventh prime minister in 10 years in the UK. So getting into Italy-like disruption. And a very popular mayor in Manchester, Greater Manchester, in the northern part of the UK. And I still don't fully understand why Keir Starmer, the former prime minister who just resigned, was quite so unpopular. He had no ability to present a vision. He was a very weak public speaker, and he had come from the background of he's a lawyer and he'd run the Crown Prosecution Service. Well, just let me point out that you just asked the question, which you just said you didn't understand why he was so unpopular, and then you outlined exactly why he is so unpopular.

54:59But let me also add to that, that he was unpopular because he didn't have much of a smile. He had no smile. He had the opposite of a smile. He had a sort of strange rictus on his face. And unfortunately, he had a very sort of tight voice. Voice matters in politics. And he had a terrible voice, a sort of adenoidal voice. Anyway, he's now gone. And And the ructions came from within his own party that the Labour Party rejected the organ of Keir Starmer, despite the fact he'd got them elected after 14 years of Tory rule. But they've tossed him out, one off there. And the interesting thing was that Andy Burnham, the new incoming prime minister on Monday, he'll be presented as prime minister.

55:50another MP had to stand down, had to vacate his seat by the rules of Parliament. So Andy Burnham had a by-election, won that seat, Makerfield, again in the north of England, and then 300 members of Parliament in the Labour Party voted for him to become Prime Minister, to become the leader of the party. It's a really remarkable development in the UK. Well, we don't know really what Andy Burnham's policies are. We don't know what, he certainly didn't run on anything much more than that he was better than Keir Starmer. But the thing about Andy Burnham is that he does seem to be a very, very good politician.

56:39And Keir Starmer and the The various of the people who preceded him in the job seem to be terrible politicians. Terrible politicians. And I always want to remind people that the first decision he made was to cut old people's heating subsidies. It was to cut pensioners' heating subsidies. For a Labour government, that's got to be the most perverse thing you could possibly do. And he never really recovered from it. Well, let's see if Andy Burnham's smile and his talents as a politician's keep him in office for at least a bit longer than... Well, all he's got to do is... How many people who have preceded it?

57:28Well, I was going to say all he has to do is last longer than a head of lettuce, which is the shortest one. And hopefully not lettuce from Mexico that caused explosive, explosive results if you ate it. I think we're going to avoid Taco Bell for the next few weeks. I'm sure you're just eating fresh organic lettuce that you've hand washed in the tears of virgins. I can go beyond that. That grows in my backyard. Okay, that grows in your backyard. Well, Michael, perhaps we should have some performative letter seating on this podcast. At any rate, I will see you on Tuesday. I will see you on Tuesday.

58:14Big thanks to our production team. I'm just going to let you do it. Okay. Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhouse, and Max the intern has left. So that's his final shout out. And I remember him well. See you on Tuesday. See ya. So the good news is we have so many B-Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.