Why Trump's Thirst for Attention Will Unravel Him

0:00He arrives there and it's, what do I do to claim all of the attention? This personality quirk has translated into an effective foreign policy, which is to say our foreign policy is not to cooperate with our allies because our allies are irrelevant. We are the focus. We must be the focus. And by we, Trump means I must be the focus. That then becomes the profile of America's place in the world. No other interests matter. No other nations matter. No other leaders matter.

0:43Michael. Joanna. Where to begin? Perhaps by introducing who we are. I am Joanna Coles and I am from Yorkshire and I have been in New York for many years and doing running women's magazines. So what I'm doing here on a Trump podcast, I have no idea. What is that, Michael? What is that? I came here as the bureau chief for The Guardian, and I am Michael Wolff, who writes books about Donald Trump. I don't know what that was. And I happily edited Cosmopolitan and Marie Claire to powerhouse female juggernaut media. But how did you get from it? And it's a curious. So make the connection, which I'm interested in, between editing a women's magazine and being in the politics business now.

1:38I have an answer for this if you don't. Well, give me the answer then. Because I actually think, and I think it's highly relevant to what we're doing here, that Donald Trump is not a political person. that he comes out of, that he is much more of a cultural phenomenon than a political phenomenon, which would give you great cred to talk about him. Good. Okay. So I don't really mean that. Well, I mean everything in a kind of in a jabby way. But this particular thing, I think, is an important thing. And it's important thing about what we do here. that the and I think the the the world is is handicapped by the fact that it is forced to look through a political media at Donald Trump and when you do that I think you see him incorrectly so um and that's why we're here and I in fact I don't I I mean I think somebody could argue that I've written about politics uh you know for many many years but I really haven't I've always written about the media and its relationship to politics.

2:51So, and obviously Donald Trump is a, reflects that part of a phenomenon, more about the media than about politics. And I'm interested in people and I'm interested in characters and Donald Trump is simply, bar none, the most interesting character in the world. And I'm also interested in how one person can manage to dominate the news cycle in the way that he does. And it's just been a remarkable week at NATO. The only person that really has competed for attention, and that's because he's nowhere to be seen, is Mitch McConnell. Is there any proof of life? If there's anybody listening or watching this podcast and you have proof of life of Mitch McConnell, please, please surface it.

3:40It is It's remarkable to me that all these people are claiming they've talked to him, yet no one, no one has a single picture of him. What has happened to Mitch McConnell? Or as someone, as someone. Mechanical, McConnell. Mechanical, McConnell, McClavicle, McConnell. As someone referred to him, I can't claim that I originated this phrase, but it's very good. Rigor tortoise. Has he got rigor tortoise? What a good line about Mitch McConnell. let's do the the post-mortem on mitch because i think he's actually a kind of fascinating figure in um a fascinating figure as a trump satellite which is what the poor man has become well and why hasn't donald trump said anything about him either that's interesting because as we know he can't resist saying anything about anybody i did think also one time i would really like to do an episode on Donald Trump's cultural influences, because I think the time he grew up is really interesting.

4:46Far fewer channels, no social media. And I think there were certain movies along the way that probably influenced him, disproportionately so, you know, like Wall Street or Pretty Woman, or I actually think... Or as much to the point, The Godfather, which influenced an entire generation, two generations of men. Of men. Less women, I think, but certainly men. Oh, my God. Not The Godfather talk. There's always a moment when you're dating, someone wants to talk about The Godfather and you just want to yawn and put your head down and wake up half an hour later. No, no, a whole business world. Actually, I recently wrote about this.

5:33God knows this kind of flash on what I've recently written about. And then I think, when did I write about that? Oh, yesterday. But yes, that came to influence the entire 80s culture of money, of business, with Donald Trump as one of its chief exponents. so all right so we'll we'll come back to that and let's do a special episode on it and I don't know whether or not he ever watched Entourage on HBO which I thought was a well it was oh but but no but let's I I take that back I'm I I doubt he did because he's he was then at the point in which in which he was not you couldn't settle him in front of a television he was um um if he wasn't on the television.

6:25He was not interested in watching it. But Entourage was about his agent. Right. Ari Emanuel. Yeah. Yes. But I was reminded of Entourage yesterday, seeing him at NATO. And I want to come back to Mitch McConnell. I want to talk about the E. Jean Carroll judgment and the fact that he may finally be forced to pay E. Jean something as she's been slowly wending her way through the courts like you have. I want to come back to Graham Plattner, who suspended his campaign since we last talked on Tuesday. But let's talk about NATO. Yes, NATO. NATO, because this really, really sums up, it's a Trump moment.

7:06It sums up exactly who he is and what he does. And so I had a White House conversation just before he got on the plane to go to NATO. And I said, because, and this has always been in the history, the 10-year Trump history of the staff around him, it's always been a kind of moment of holding their breath when he goes to NATO, because it's someplace that he dislikes, intensely dislikes being there. And we this the other day that he doesn't like to be among a group of equals. It just doesn't like it. It doesn't like the look, doesn't like what it says, the meaning of this. It just runs against everything in his being, particularly the picture, the ritual picture that has to be taken there.

8:11So I said to this person, I said, so what's he going to do? And this person says, I don't know, but he's going to do something. And I think that that's exactly what we've seen here. He arrives there and it's what do I do to claim all of the attention? And I mean, this has been a series of kind of things, including going back to war in Iran, which I think is very plausibly just there. That is obviously going to upstage the NATO meeting. Then coming back to Greenland, then coming back to dismissing everyone, dissing Europe. So essentially, how could he not but become the center of attention here?

9:06But the thing is, and I think this is the fundamental point, that to remember that's what this is about. This is about attention. Donald Trump is about attention. He's not about policy. He's not about accomplishments. He's not about America first. Certainly not about cooperation, which is the nature of NATO. It's just about attention. And to understand that, you have to, I think, to fully understand it, you have to understand that there is no meaning beyond that. It's not about anything else. It is the only intention here is the attention paid to him. And I think you can probably extend that out, that this is that we've seen.

9:57What is this 10 years of the Trump era been about? It has just been about what gets him attention. Interesting. Do you think actually that he really bombed Iran again just because he could and for attention? Well, I'm sure that that was a factor in this and it may have been the overriding factor. Yes. America has always built its way forward through disruption, through reinvention, through people overcoming the challenges before them. Today, the ideas shaping America's future are being built collaboratively by communities, innovators, and entrepreneurs all looking in the same direction. In storefronts, community centers, and towns, most people drive through without stopping.

10:43People are using technology and creativity to solve real problems in practical ways. building opportunity, optimism, and momentum from the ground up. We're already writing America's Next Chapter. We're building what's next now.

11:02Wow. I mean, it is strange when you hear earnest and utterly sincere journalists trying to make sense out of what he does. And, you know, I read several accounts of dueling messages and conflicting messages coming out of NATO. And on the one hand, he's supportive and he gave that strange speech saying there was so much love, so much love. And then he goes, I'm not going to say the love is all about me because people are going to say I'm conceited. He's conceited. I mean, it's just it's fascinating the way he does these sort of stream of consciousness. But this is all it is all focusing attention on him.

11:41Yeah, of course. The reversal, okay, this was an incredibly hostile X number of hours, hostile in every respect. Right. And then he suddenly gets to say, no, no, it was a love fest. Again, the attention comes back to him. Right. And also, the photo, the group photo, which you referenced in Tuesday's podcast, I was watching it as they assembled them. And I hope we can play some of the footage. because what's fascinating is you've got the back row, then you've got the middle row, then you've got the front row. Trump obviously wants to be in the middle of the front row if he's got to be in a group shot at all.

12:19So there's a very funny part where Mark Rutter, the head of NATO, Secretary General of NATO, shakes every leader who's there by the hand and then leads them off the stage. And you can see how annoyed Trump is that he has to come and do this. And he sort of sidles up and he's really talking to the audience and thanking the audience in as much as there is one. And then he gets shown off the stage. So you can see he's irritated. And then in the group photo, they have him slightly off center on the bottom row. And again, you can just see him bridling that it's not all about him. And he's got to stand with this group.

12:57And he's next to Keir Starmer, who's on his way out. So I'm sure he thinks Keir Tom was a total loser. And the whole thing is just, it's so revealing of this craving for attention, this tiny child who just never got enough of it and who throws temper tantrums and knows exactly how to get attention. Yeah, well, I don't know. That's an interesting thing. He never got enough of it. I mean, I think maybe actually it's the opposite it is true he has always gotten too much of it and that has created an addiction which obviously has to be um um has to be a satisfied with ever more attention evermore evermore it well but to me his craving for it suggests that it was something lacking early and whatever he gets it's never going to be enough um well apparently it is never going to be enough we can certainly I agree on that.

13:54We can agree on that. But, you know, it's interesting how this personality quirk has translated into an effective foreign policy, which is to say that our foreign policy is not to cooperate with our allies because we are – our allies are irrelevant. We are the focus. We must be the focus. And by we, Trump means I must be the focus. And that then becomes the profile of America's place in the world. No other interests matter. No other nations matter. No other leaders matter. Well, I did think of entourage when he was there because he had Marco there. He had Pete Hegseth there. He had, I think, Howard Lutnick was there or was it Scott Bessent was there.

14:55But he had an entourage of these men, none of whom said anything. And then at the end, when Trump was leaving the podium at one point and taking his boys with him, and it reminded me, and this is why I was going back to sort of cultural moments and cultural memes. It reminded me a little bit of Danny Zuko in Greece with his kind of wingmen around him. It's like Trump travels with his wingmen. And then Marco, the Secretary of State for the United States and our National Security Advisor, and goodness knows how many other jobs he's got, grabs a glass from the podium and a file as he's leaving as if he is literally the Secretary.

15:39Not the Secretary of State, but cleaning up after Trump because Trump has left some notes behind and he sort of skips down behind them all. But also Trump's insistence on sort of saying, Marco's here, Marco thinks it's great, don't you, Marco? Instead of calling him Secretary of State, this weird familiarity as if they're all there just to support him. It's like Gladys Knight and the pips. It's just the weirdest thing. Yeah, and that is literally how he sees it. These are my people, my guys. Do you think it's because he doesn't have any friends and he wants to sort of hang out with people? No, no, no, no.

16:20He doesn't want to hang out with these people at all. He wants toadies. He wants lackeys. He wants everyone to – wants it to be seen that these people are in a state of subservience to him. Right. So it's a power play. It's just reinforcing his own power as the leader of the gang. Yes, no. And he likes these people to reinforce him because that's their job. Isn't that, didn't I just give the best speech of my life? Oh, you just gave the best speech of your life. And that's what this is, to be in this little bubble. That's what it is like. I mean, it's a kind of the feeling when you hear these people do it, you just, you cringe with your own shame.

17:08You cringe with your own shame. I wish I could be a fly on the wall for the conversations that they must have when Trump isn't in the room and they don't think they're being spied upon. I mean, how can they even have these conversations? Well, they don't really. I mean, it doesn't. I mean, occasionally and occasionally if you have a relationship with some of these people, they will give you a perspective. But it's very important and they don't really talk among each other. Nobody really shares their views of Donald Trump among each other because of the obviously the the the fear that anyone would anyone might betray another, which they would.

17:50Which they would. Of course they would. But also you're in this role. You can I mean, it's very hard to break that role because you if you broke if you break your role and suddenly say, oh, my God, what what have I done? What have I become? Then you would have to kill yourself. um so um that's very that's very dramatic for a Thursday they they all maintain it is that you're in this existential position and it is all about survival I know what I have to do in order to survive this and if I do survive this well then you know Marco Rubio I might become the president of the United States so J.D. Vance I might become the president of the United States They won't, by the way.

18:35But, you know, they, of course, think that because they couldn't go on if they didn't think that there was something beyond this. I did an interview yesterday with Ashley Sinclair, who's a former MAGA influencer for Turning Point and a baby mama of Elon Musk's. And I asked her if she thought J.D. Vance would get to be president. And she said, no, he has the charisma of a wet napkin, which I thought was rather a good description. Anyway, let us talk about the way Trump and his entourage left Turkey, because it was not as they arrived. And I was imagining them all having so much fun on the new tricked out grift force one as they set off for Turkey.

19:23and they're probably all just enjoying the sumptuous leather seats and the gold and the snacks and all of the things on a new plane. And then to their great disappointment, they have to come back in just plain old, old Air Force One. Do you want to explain why? Apparently, the Secret Service put its foot down and said that the Qatari Air Force One had vulnerabilities and that given what was going on in Iran, they raised the threat level, apparently. Now, you would not notice this, know this from what Trump said. And he said exactly the opposite, which is that interesting thing that obviously this this this happened.

20:16That is what what happened. Why else would you would you? I mean, there are only two reasons that you would not return in the preferred plane, which is that either the plane itself had some kind of mechanical problem or there is this other concern that it was not properly retrofitted with the necessary security. And there were worries, if not threats. And they would have had to have gone to this match. I mean, this would have been a confrontation. The Secret Service says you cannot go back in this plane. And Trump would have been, you know, I mean, it's that interesting moment where, you know, the president can theoretically overrule the Secret Service, but not necessarily.

21:10and especially if the Secret Service makes it a matter of effectively national security. I mean, I suppose you could have framed that, said that in some way that was at least relatively close to the truth. Instead, Trump lies blatantly and said that had nothing to do with it. And we're just showing off Air Force, the new Air Force One to, I think they have it landing at some military base. And we're just showing it off. Right. We're going to let the soldiers come on board and have a look at it. I mean, obviously not. Obviously not true. Right. So why does he have to do this? Well, I mean, in part, he staked a lot on this absolutely ridiculous, preposterous thing of taking this gift plane from from from the Qatarians who who would have likely fitted it with all kinds of things that might be harmful to the the plane security and to the end to U.S.

22:25interest, but leave that aside. Pay no attention. And that is what this episode has become. Pay no attention to the obvious. I think the focus on the nature of the lie, of his need to do this, of his, you know, it's effectively a strategy and it has always been. I just deny it. I don't want that to be the reality. I deny it. I don't have to accept that. Well, he was asked by a female reporter, was there a specific threat that they were responding to by changing the plane? And he said, well, I'm the number one target. I'm the number one target. And then he added helpfully, and if I go down, you go down too.

23:09This is not how one hopes presidents speak. But of course, he does speak like this because he is the president and we shouldn't be looking for normality. We should be trying to understand who he is. But it was not unamusing that his grift force one that he is so proud of with its endless lounges and bedrooms and its nine half bathrooms and its four full bathrooms turns out not to be up to the job of flying an American president to a NATO summit in Turkey and bringing him back. So this will be interesting to keep our eye on this story, because I would say that this indicates that there is something wrong with this plane.

23:51Interesting. Interesting. And I also wondered if he got back on the old Air Force One and started kicking it. It's again, just going to the sort of childish thing that he would be stomping around going, I hate this plane. Oh, look at this horrible sofa, sort of kicking the table. No, I can guarantee that's exactly what he would be doing. I mean, he's strangely aware of his environment, or perhaps it is that loss of control over his environment. and he has this idea in his head of what things should look like and be like. I mean, so it's a level of taste, although it's, of course, at all times incredibly bad taste.

24:38But the idea of how furniture should look, of how things should be cleaned, I mean, it's a weird set of fixations almost in every situation that he is in. This is not the way it should be. This is the way I like it. I go to a hotel. Well, I don't want to wear those slippers if they're not in cellophane. So aides have to go out to get him the slippers in cellophane. This is not the kind of candy I like. This is the kind of candy. So it's all, I think you could say it's one, it's childish at this level. I want what I want when I want it. But it's also a kind of a particular, a particularity that is obsessive to a degree.

25:35Well, and I think probably also he doesn't want to be on the plane because it was Biden's plane. And before that, it was Obama's plane. And so that's all before that actually was his plane. And then it was Obama's plane. But that sense of obviously, I think what he likes about grift force one is that he's the first president to ride it and he's going to take it with him. Yeah, I'm sorry for interrupting, but which is perhaps the first time I've said that. I nearly passed out, Michael. I almost did a coffee spit. But I have a thing because I just flashed on that when he travels, when he's out on the campaign trail and he has to stay overnight, which he hates to do, but when forced to do that, then it's very particular about the kind of hotels that he likes to stay in, that he's willing to stay in.

26:28And it's always a chain hotel and it always is the newest chain hotel. Right, because he equates new with luxury or new with clean, perhaps. And yet we know from reports that he throws his ice cream cartons and his candy wrappers on the floor of his bedroom in the White House. He's a messy eater. Yeah, no, no. I mean, one of the great descriptions I had was in this particular hotel room, I think this was in Iowa, with literally the candy wrappers. This was compared to like fall leaves on the ground. You just went... Crunching through them. The poor cleaning stuff. That noise as you walk through of not leaves, but of the wrappers from the Milky Ways.

27:28Well, and also there were reports when he stayed in London with the royal family that he'd left the bedroom in a terrible state. The royal cleaners were completely surprised that the American president would have left the room in this situation. but I guess it's a kind of weird passive-aggressive thing, and other people clear up after you. So another person that's got some clearing up to do, Graham Plattner. Platters has suspended his campaign and left the Dems in Maine in a mess with two weeks, just over two weeks, to find a new candidate to face down Susan Collins and try and win back the Senate.

28:12No, extraordinary. And it goes to where the Democrats are at this point in time, not only the broader goals to win back the Senate, but the more specific question of how did they get into this mess. Right. And there was an editorial board column in The Times today, we're recording this on Thursday morning, saying that the problem with Plattner is that the Dems are looking for personalities to mask the apparent fact they have no policy. You may be the first person to have read a... Well, I don't always agree with them, but I thought this one was a good one. In fact, what they're trying to do is say personality is not a platform.

29:02The Dems need a platform. And we really don't know what the platform is. What do they think about the economy? What do they think about immigration? What do they think about AI? We know that they think never Trump, but we don't know much else right now. I mean, it's a little off point because, I mean, this is a local race. This is, you know, Graham Plattner is not running for president or was not running for president of the United States. He was running for a Senate, a seat in the in the Senate from Maine to represent Maine in the Senate. That's how we worked. I mean, this is actually. You still have to have some policies that differentiate you from Susan Collins.

29:43Well, we do know what Graham – yeah, we don't know. But in Graham Plattner, I'm not sure that that would be – that's the most relevant issue to people in Maine. I mean, we do know that he was, that certainly in contrast to Susan Collins, that he was, I mean, he had staked out this thing that this is the, you know, I'm a working man. I represent that's who I want to represent. I represent a whole range of of of economic views that are that are antithetical to to corporate America, to billionaire America, to Trump America. And and to boot and very specifically, I I have taken a position against Israel.

30:37So there are very I don't know what The Times is talking about. Actually, actually, they're very only that they don't like these views, that these are that there are a series of views taken by certain by Plattner and by other of these insurgent Democrats that are, you know, clear policy views. I mean, they may not be policy views that are embraced by the rest of the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party might be lagging behind on this issue or the Democratic Party might be at an internal war. But there are real policy issues that are going on here. I think that the issue is that Schumer selected Janet Mills, the 78-year-old governor of Maine, to run for this seat.

31:26And I'm sure with a perfectly, you know, with a with a logic that that might have seemed obvious but was unchallenged, which is, well, she's a vote getter in Maine. And and why not? Without focusing on the fact that one of the central issues among the Democratic electorate is that is a generational issue. So so suddenly Graham Plattner became the contrast gainer. He was not a 78 year old politician, career politician selected by a by the by the rest of the geronocracy of the Democratic Party. And so I think we can put this part of this problem back onto Schumer, who is a problem for the Democrats, a larger and larger problem for the Democrats.

32:27And, you know, and then there is this this this other thing that there is a clearly a style. Dichotomy within the the appreciation of what a politician should be, you know, Democrats have been. I don't know. I mean, Democrats are fake. Plattner is real. You know, Democrats, professional Democrats have have become are and this is true in the Republican Party, too. And we'll get to Mitch McConnell have become this this this administrative class. and they bear, you know, little, little, they're, they just don't, there is just no identification with people who suddenly want to identify with politicians.

33:30And Graham Plattner offered that, I'm a real guy. Now, that became his problem. You know, the problem with real people is that they are real real and that they have real problems and the fact that graham plattner you know seemed well he seemed rough a little rough around the edges which people thought would be a good thing and of course it turned out i mean we can go further than that he seemed kind of like a drunk um and well he seemed like a reformed drunk it turns out he was a drunk right it seemed like he was a reformed that he'd had a, you know, I mean, people were making excuses for him saying he had PTSD from his service in the military, but he wanted to serve.

34:13I got an interesting text from someone who's involved in getting some of the veterans elected. You know, there's a whole group of young veterans who've served who want to carry on serving beyond the military. And I got this note yesterday about Plattner. Yeah, Plattner's a hot mess. He's a guy who did this running for largely good reasons to serve purpose. But of course, there is his ego, cover of Time. I didn't realize he'd been on the cover of Time. And he is deeply wounded. Well, that's because it's Time and no one, Time magazine actually doesn't really exist. It doesn't really exist. So. Well, that's why I didn't know he'd been on the cover of it.

34:53That's an idea out there. Yes. But he carried on. He's deeply wounded. It's believable to me that he put himself on the woman who just came out publicly in such a way, especially if he was heavily drunk, as she notes he was, and then never had the decency or courage to speak with her after. If that is true, that she reached out and asked for an apology. And there is, of course, other stuff probably not yet in the public domain. On top of it all, I'm not sure he can hack it as a senator. If he was elected, he should drop for his own sake and others. Well, obviously, this is somebody who just came to this conclusion yesterday.

35:31No, no. This was before Plattner had dropped out. But it was just someone who's been very involved in looking for different kinds of candidates to address your point that a lot of, well, not a lot, but some Democratic candidates feel fake or feel like they're tied to a party line. A lot of Democratic candidates, a lot of also Republican candidates feel fake. I mean, they are, they have, you know, it's an interesting thing. In the age of mass media coverage, they've protected themselves in such a way, protected them, their lives, their language, their look, their feel in ways that made them opaque.

36:15And suddenly you have a media, social media, who wants a different kind of authenticity, a different kind of personality, a different kind of look and feel. So those people are at odds. And this is, of course, magnified by Donald Trump, who is, to say the least, real, appalling, of course. But he is... He's also a hot mess, a hot mess of a president. Exactly. And then we have all the things. I mean, what he has been accused of is certainly as bad or worse than what graham plattner has been accused of and that's a whole other issue of why the democrats are are in this in this position and confronting this at a level that the republicans don't seem to believe they have to confront right well it's a good thing that they're getting rid of toxic candidates.

37:22Eric Swalwell being another one. It is, but then it becomes the thing. What is a real person? And a real person seems to have to be a toxic person too, or else you're not real. I don't know. I mean... Well, it'd be nice to have some real people who aren't accused rapists. Of course, he's denied the allegations, we should say. Plattner's denied the allegations of rape, said it's not true. Yeah. But even so, even before PTSD, well, maybe it's not such a good idea to have your favorite son a PTSD survivor. Well, and the allegations are very similar to what Pete Hegseth faced during his Senate confirmation, right?

38:09Exactly. From the Republican side. I mean, think of RFK Jr. I mean, you can go down the list of Republicans that have shrugged, essentially just shrugged this off. Yeah. I mean, Pete Hegseth also accused, you know, Joni Ernst said that she was very concerned about it, looked like she was going to be a holdout and then was confronted with leaking details of her own messy divorce and quickly hopped back on the bandwagon to confirm him. but almost identical allegations. And again, both men clearly having had a traumatic war. So do you think that E. Jean Carroll will finally get some money out of Donald Trump?

38:53He's doing everything he can to avoid it. But it looks like yesterday, a judge made a decision that it's enough and it's time and Donald Trump has to pay her the$5 million she's due. I think that is that is in escrow. So the judge has ordered that to be released. So I guess it does go to her. I don't know if if the Trump side can appeal that and run, you know, and try to at least try to delay that that result. But it does sound like that's going to happen now. Now, and I don't know what, so the other judgment, which was 83 million. Is still wending its way through the court. So that is, she has yet to get that.

39:47But that also, by the way, is in an escrow account. Wow. Or I think he had to put up a bond for that. So this money is, all of this money is there and all of this money should eventually get to her, which is not going to make Donald Trump happy. Well, it'll go to pay her lawyers because this has been such a long case, right? Well, this is, I certainly hope her lawyers are not going to cost her$90 million. No, well, I hope so too. I hope so too. But no, E. Jean Carroll, who I think lives a relatively modest life, actually, will hopefully enjoy this. And she said she was going to give the money to women's causes and, you know, sexual violence causes.

40:40Now, the other thing, and I remember the moments during the campaign when these judgments came down and in which it appeared that Donald Trump would have to put up the cash or put up a bond or put up so much money to ensure the bond that it looked like it would force his – that it could come close to forcing his bankruptcy. and that he would have to be that there were certain major assets, 40 Wall Street building that he owns, for instance, that the court was literally on the verge of taking his property. Now, let's compare that to the$2 billion he has earned in the 17 months that he has been president.

41:45it. Hopefully, Gene Carroll will actually get some cash then. So would we give cash for a proof of life video of Mitch McConnell? How is it possible that he's lying there and no one has sneaked out a photo?

42:04I'm interested in two things here. I'm interested in the fact that that people are so on top of this. I mean, and I think we've discussed this, or at least you and I have discussed this, that, I mean, Mitch McConnell is of little consequence at this point. I mean, he's no longer a figure. I mean, we've known that he's been sick for a long time, significantly sick. He's stepped out of any kind of, holding any kind of power within the Senate, and he's not running for re-election. So what's the issue about him? And I think, to answer my own question, I think he's profoundly hated and he's hated probably for, you know, an historic reason that he is the guy, one of the Republicans who could have stopped Donald Trump.

43:09And also understanding that Mitch McConnell was never a Trump believer. Actually, he was always a Trump hater and Trump hated him. And yet Mitch McConnell never raised a finger. And he very well could have. I mean, in the impeachment, after Trump's second impeachment, Mitch McConnell could have, was aware that he could have, and considered that he might well come down on the side of conviction in the Senate. And if he had come down on the side of conviction in the Senate, Trump would have been convicted and Trump therefore would have been been precluded from running for office again. So Trump, certainly the second Trump term is in Mitch McConnell's, was in Mitch McConnell's hands and is on Mitch McConnell's head.

44:09Well, and I'm sure that's true from the Republicans. I think a lot of Republicans hate him too. And of course, the Democrats, because he held up the appointment of Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court, thus delivering. Who was he delivering at that point? Was it Neil Gorsuch? But delivering the beginning of the conservative court. and, of course, his hostility to Obama once they won back the Senate in the midterms after Obama's first, well, during Obama's first administration. I mean, that's certainly true. My gut, though, is that the hatred here, and it's a hatred among Republicans. I mean, Republicans, you know, there's a not-so-secret underground of Republicans who would have breathed an incredible sigh of relief if Donald Trump had been convicted and if there was no second term of Donald Trump.

45:09And they couldn't do this because Mitch wouldn't do it. So there's a whole conspiracy theory that Mitch McConnell is essentially on life support. he's in the hospital they're keeping him alive so there's no need for a special election in kentucky where he's still got his seat until november the election in november special election in kentucky would produce another republican um well except that andy beshear your friend uh who's the governor of kentucky a democratic governor in a red state gets to appoint the senator. Except that's not true, except for the fact that that is not true. He doesn't get to a point that he doesn't get there has to be a special election.

45:55That was actually the law changed a couple of years ago, precisely in anticipation, actually, of this. So in theory, Andy Beshear, who's the governor, Democratic governor in a red state, has said, has demanded a public health update. He's been hospitalized now, Mitch, for three weeks. And the governor has finally said, what's going on here? We need some kind of progress report. Yeah, I mean, but to no real point. I mean, I guess the point is transparency and one has the right to know. And certainly that would be the side that you would want to, especially the Democratic governor, would want to be on, the Democratic governor who is himself likely running for president.

46:47So this is a bit of posturing because the truth is that if Mitch is dead or incapacitated or whatever the standard would be, in Kentucky you have to call a special election, that would result in another Republican. So the issues here are not really all that meaningful. There is not going to be any change in the nature of the Senate if Mitch McConnell, if there has to be a special election. So I really think it's just it is a person that Mitch McConnell comes out of this as a as a as a truly hated figure because of because he did not stand that could have stood in the way he did not stand in the way of Donald Trump's reelection.

47:46And the irony here is, of course, that Mitch McConnell hated Donald Trump and Donald Trump hated Mitch McConnell. And I'm sure Elaine Chao, Mitch McConnell's wife, also hated Donald Trump. She was his transport secretary. She also worked for under George Bush. And of course, she had a sister who died in a terrible scenario where she was in a Tesla which went underwater. water. She by accident backed into a piece of or a body of water on her property and ended up dying, couldn't get out of the car after spending the evening with some girlfriends. And Elaine Chao, who is herself the daughter of a billionaire, has been in China since her husband's been ill, which has led to all sorts of conspiracies.

48:38And Marjorie Taylor Greene, clearly anxious and fulminating for attention and missing her platform in Congress has been saying that it's very clear that she's a spy and that this is all very odd indeed. And Laura Loomer, who we know is the president's sort of whisperer of certain things, has been telling everybody that Mitch is now in a persistent vegetative state. So with friends like Laura Loomer and Marjorie Taylor Greene, what do you want? And this is becoming a kind of theme. Well, we don't have three yet, So it's just two, three makes it a theme. But this coming on the heels of the New Jersey congressman.

49:18Tom Keene. Tom Keene, who was mysteriously in the hospital for, or mysteriously out of commission for weeks and weeks. Yeah, he missed 146 votes. Yes, and who has just returned to announce that he was suffering from depression and had been, as we used to say in New Jersey, institutionalized. Can you think of any other job where you disappear for three weeks, nobody knows what's happened to you, and then your mate, so John Thune in this case, Senate Majority Leader, says, it's all good, I spoke to him, he's absolutely fine. He's absolutely fine. I mean, if you disappeared from the podcast, Michael, that would make no sense.

50:10If you disappeared from the podcast and I called and said, well, where's Michael? Where is he? And someone said, oh, he's absolutely fine. He's absolutely fine. But you just disappeared. You would be, we would stop doing the podcast. How is it possible that these politicians get away with this? No wonder people feel that they're not represented properly. No wonder. No one can do this in a job. No one can just disappear for three weeks. You know, I'll bet CEOs often disappear for four weeks. Not without telling their shareholders what's wrong with them. You know, I would not be so sure about that.

50:50But, I mean, the John Foon thing is interesting because if Mitch is dead or in a vegetative state, or in some other way incapacitated. And John Thune has said, I spoke to him and he's fine. Well, the disparity there is going to be pretty hard to spin. As a matter of fact, so hard to spin that I would think that actually it probably is, there is probably some way, John Thune knows that there is some way to spin this, that Mitch is probably, you know, not in great shape, but he'll emerge to walk with two people supporting him on each side and he'll wink or something or blink. And that will be a stand-in for a living Mitch.

51:54Otherwise, I don't know how Jonathan could have said that. Well, John Thune said, I spoke to him, which he may well have done. We don't know that Mitch McConnell, and very specifically, they didn't say Mitch McConnell spoke back. I mean, John Thune might have said, Mitch, I've been told you can hear me. It's John, your friend. We're all rooting for you. We don't know that Mitch responded. I hope your friend, Governor Beshear, gets to the bottom of it. Do you think he stands a chance running for the Democratic leadership? Well, I think, I mean, my friend, my friendship is based on a dinner in the Hamptons.

52:31You know, the politicians come through the Hamptons because this is where the money is. And occasionally I get invited to a dinner with a politician. Why? I'm not sure, because believe me, the money does not come from me. I think you're probably one of the interesting guests. And he was, no, I mean, I found him a very, you know, reasonable and approachable and intelligent and all of the good things that you can, that you might say about a man who was going to assume a, you know, an administrative driven policy driven office. And that, I guess, is good. But the other side of that was he was boring to a fault, spoke in policy paragraphs.

53:32It was like everybody – I mean, it was a small dinner, but everybody looking at their watches or checking their phones. Oh, that's not good. So he was boring to a fault. So he does all the things that you want a serious president to do, but he's too boring to be elected. Yeah. And I think that is the thing. That's the moment that we are in. Logically, you would say, what does it matter if he's boring? If he is a command over the job, if he's a reasonable person, if he has thought this through, great. But that's not the reality. The reality is that you want a PTSD drunk. Well, we also want proof of life videos of Mitch McConnell.

54:24So if you have one, let us know, please. So we will be back on Saturday to discuss a question that both of us are very vexed by, which is, has Donald Trump won the Epstein files? So we're going to get into that on Saturday. Has he beaten the rap? has he beaten the rap we have a ton of limericks I discovered an entire email channel which I didn't know about which has got loads of limericks in it but I've just chosen one for today and this is by Alexandra Corker Hamill I love the beast nightly and daily the elephant rather acts snaily I join in the laughter about guys they are after and wish we would have an old bailey old Bailey being the symbol of justice in the UK.

55:17It must be a British limerickist. I think it's a British limerickist. Well, if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast if you haven't. We're independent media. The reason we can bring you these conversations is because we are genuinely independent and your support makes a huge difference to us. You can become a friend of The Beast. You can be a BeBeast tier member with all sorts of benefits. But please subscribe if you haven't. And big thanks to our production team. Michael, take it away. Ryan, Rachel, John, Neil, Heather. And Max the Intern. Max the Intern.

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