#88 - Bruno del Ama: Leadership, Spirituality, Growth, Fulfillment

28:58So there's that. And then those that get to the finish line, Then to your point, the finish line, well, you never get there because in that treadmill, you just keep pushing it forward and forward. And so I was really struck by kind of the ultimate example. Like if you take all of us, 7 billion human beings, and you go to what humanity would consider the front of the line, you meet Elon Musk. And he's like, literally, you know, in front of the 7 billion humans in terms of how we think about success. and there was this podcast that um he did in with a german journalist and the journalist asked him about death and he said what you know what do you think about death and elon said i think it will come as a relief and even if that was a throwaway comment which it could be it just to me shows a state of mind of somebody in the midst of ultimate success for him it's even worse because you know if he had one human being with less wealth than him, he could say, well, once I become number one, then I'll be happy.

30:03Right. And then he gets there and he's like, well, I'm not happy. You know, so that catching myself in that process of moving the finish line and realizing the futility and the mental mistake and the implications of that and the ability through, this is not an easy thing to do, but it's doable of reprogramming that. But obviously, the first step of reprogramming that is just realizing that you're doing it. Because most of us, I was doing it unconsciously, like it was just a thing. And I just was very fortunate to catch myself in that process. And so that to me is probably most of the most fundamental changes that humans need to go through, which is understanding, hey, like what is the game?

30:49If that's not the game, what is the game? Would you share what Sangha is, why you launched it, and how it operates? I was, at the time, a member of YPL, Young Presidents Organization, which is an organization of 40 ,000 CEOs around the world and the largest CEO organization globally. I was a member of the chapter in New York, which is the oldest original chapter and the largest chapter. and um as i was going through this journey you know a lot of my training and my ethos was very much in the business world and so i thought you know if i want to change my uh orientation and i want to learn about these new things i probably need to create you know new centers of gravity new things that kind of attract me to those new types of learnings and activities and and maybe cut loose some of the things that keep me anchored to to my old self that, you know, are just maybe not as meaningful right now.

31:49And so I decided to leave YPO. And just as I made that decision, somebody in my chapter in New York started a mindfulness WhatsApp group and a whole bunch of people from my chapter joined. And that was super interesting because I was like, wow, okay, hold on. There's, I guess, more people that have this orientation under the hood that I thought of they're either doing it or they're interested in learning more. which is true so you know the the i do know today because i basically i'm completely out of the closet with regards to my spiritual orientation uh most people are not most people in the business world are very private about anything they may do that may sound a little woo or a little spiritual because it's just not viewed as something um helpful in your career and so people are very private about that.

32:41And I got in touch with the person that started that group, this dear friend of mine now, I didn't know him at the time, Jonathan Krieger. And on that call, I said to John, John, why don't we start the main thing inside of YPO that keeps most people, people join YPO for the network, and they stay in YPO for this thing called Forum. So Forum is basically you meet with seven, eight, nine CEOs on a monthly basis. And it's sort of each other board of trustees, board of directors in their lives, because as a CEO, in many regards, you feel pretty lonely in a number of areas where there's a lot of things that you can't really talk to your employees about or your peers or your spouse.

33:22And so you have a network of people that are sort of in similar circumstances as you are, where you can discuss a lot of things. And so I said to John, why don't we start our own group of seven, eight people, but let's do it so that everybody in the group has this, you know, broader spiritual orientation in their lives. And let's give us room to change the format of how these things are run, because it's a very particular format to really suit our needs and sort of let it evolve over time. And so we've been doing this for the last four years and it's been transformational for, you know, right now we're, we were initially eight people, we're down to six, four men and two women.

34:05And it's radically transformed our lives. It's been such a powerful gift for every single one of us. And the extent of the transformation of every one of us in that group has been incredible from every dimension, you know, personal, professional, spiritual. And it just, I received the calling to make that available to others and bring that to the world. And so Sangha, what Sangha is, it's essentially your own wisdom circle, if you want. So this is a group of seven or eight very highly developed humans that are really committed to their own self-actualization, growth in consciousness, whatever your term may be for that.

34:51And so they commit to their own growth and transformation, and they commit to really supporting those in the group in their own journeys. And we bring a lot of social technology and really powerful structures as to how to train those groups so that they're really self-sufficient to do this on their own. And so there's no doctrine here. There's no teachings. There's no dogma. There's none of that. This is really incredibly powerful individuals that that have to be selected into Sangha, that they clearly see this as something in service to themselves and their journey, that they commit to helping others around them.

35:32And it's just a tool in their lives as they kind of try to make sense of what's going on and try to navigate the world in as much wisdom as possible. And how do you incorporate spirituality into your approach to business and life? and how is that reflected in Senga? I don't think about it as something, just the way you phrased the question, Alex, implies that there's sort of like a separation. You know, this is the spiritual life, this is the professional life, this is the whatever, right? And the way I live my life is I just live life fully, as fully as I can in its fullest expression. And that includes the fact that I do projects.

36:17You can think about them as business projects. That includes the fact that there's loved ones, including a spouse and family and friends. And it includes the facts that I work on myself in becoming better at life, which includes all of the above. So it doesn't really answer your question, but I just want to point out, I don't think about it as incorporate spirituality. I just sort of, I live life fully. And of course, to do that, there are certain tools and certain practices that just makes one, you be more present in life, be more effective, be more connected, you know, what have you. So I don't know if that's helpful.

36:56No, it's very helpful. We talked about the finish line that keeps moving. If that's not how you define success, how do you think about it? My perspective, which could be wrong, but my perspective is that the reason we're here and really our highest ethical calling, what we actually have to do is to grow as humans, to transform our consciousness, to become fully human. You know, we come here to become what we can be. And, you know, if you think about the great spiritual teachers across traditions, you know, Buddha saying, you know, your true nature is this Buddha nature and your calling is to become that Buddha nature.

37:44Or, you know, Jesus, the first word that he said in the Gospels is this word called metanoia, which was mistranslated. But what metanoia actually means in Greece is change your mind, change your consciousness. And so that calling, which is true across every wisdom tradition, and it's true across the great philosophers, and it's true across the great humans that we've had, you know, that's what we're called to do. And then what happens when one goes in that journey, this may sound crazy, but this is my experience. You essentially become supported by all of nature, like all of nature. Once we behave according to our nature, all of nature guides us and supports us and collaborates with that journey and that process.

38:34As opposed to feeling friction. That's exactly right. So most of us operate from a place of wanting and grasping and working towards the thing. And as we talked about through the hedonic treadmill, resetting and moving the goalposts and just continuing on that. and the game really is what am I asked to do here? What's the point of these? And the easiest way for people that are not really working through these, but they maybe have an interest or an opening, it's just to connect with our hearts and kind of ask themselves in our hearts deeply in a place of silence, not in a place I'm running meetings and more meetings that call in hyperactivity, but kind of take some space, create a little bit of spaciousness and just ask themselves, like, what am I being called to do?

39:28You know, what's the right next step? What I found in my own journey to be probably the single most effective access point to do that, that anybody can do is just journal. You know, even if it's five minutes a day with a simple question, like what's being asked of me today? Not what society is asking of me, my parents, my bosses, my spouse, my job. Fundamentally, substantially, what's being asked of me? You just journal on that question or a question along those lines, whatever comes from you for five minutes, 10 minutes, and that will show you the path. That's been my experience. The way that you're describing it, it almost sounds like once you figure that out, then there's a certain level of peace that comes with it.

40:20And you're working your way through the world, and it seems like everything's flowing in the same direction as opposed to constant conflict. Yes, because really most of us are at war with the world. When you start moving away from words or something else, it feels like peace. a better state which comes after peace is honestly fire inner fire oh wonder excitement and just incredible boundless energy to do any you know because as you go through that process and you're supported by by everything around you you know you You have crazy encounters and conversations and synchronicities and things that happen that just show up in your path as you're essentially moving from that friction of this is the direction that I think I need to go.

41:20So it was like, hold on, this is where life wants me to go. And as you go from upstream to downstream with the river of life, where everything becomes easier. And so all of that grasping and running and difficulty brings you to peace and eventually to fire, to grill, because as you open your eyes, really, and you allow yourself to see what's happening, it's a pretty wondrous reality that we're living in. And it's pretty magical. And of course, one has to be careful to say, well, my life, I live in magic, because of course, there's an enormous amount of suffering around us. but we kind of have to say that because if we don't allow people to understand that that possibility is not only out there but that is your highest ethical calling to live in wonder and awe and magic unless you know that that's not only possible but that's what you can do pretty quickly if you reorient your life.

42:20We need that motivation. Peace doesn't sound very motivating. Peace in the context of war sounds motivating But the fact of the matter is that when we're in that war, we become addicted to things that keep us blind. You know, Buddha said something along the lines of, you know, we're we humanity. Society is like fish flopping around in small paddles competing with one another. That's a pretty odd description, I think, of, you know, our society. And so we become blinded by that. I have another friend that he had a real deep inquiry of why are we not surrounded by enlightened beings? Why are there not more people out there?

43:02And it's a really profound inquiry if you really think about it. And there's a number of things that cause that to happen. But the main one that he came to, which I agree, he calls it tribal resonance. So, you know, we are programmed as we come into the world to be in resonance with our mother because we need that to be fed and survival and happiness. And then we resonate with our families and then our classmates and then, you know, our jobs and our country. And we're basically social beings that want to be accepted and loved. Essentially, we're all looking for love. That's the operating kind of principle of the world.

43:46But in that sort of seal to fit in and resonate, and it just keeps us bound. It keeps us bound by the norms of our society and our jobs and how we run corporations and what it means to be a leader and what's acceptable for somebody to say in a podcast. And we kind of need to have a lot of courage. And that's why Sangha and these wisdom circles are so powerful, because all of a sudden, I find a small group of people in search of truth that we can allow our little group of six, seven, eight people to resonate with each other. That may be totally different in society, but it keeps us sane. It keeps us connected with humans and it gives us permission to go there.

44:34And circling back to our earlier conversation about leadership, what you described when you said fire, it's about having drive, having curiosity. a pursuit of growth. And as a leader, if you can identify that in the people that work with you and for you, and you help them realize that and achieve those long-term objectives, that's how you can probably get the most out of people. Yeah, that's spot on. So how do you move mountains, right? If you're creating a project, building an asset management company, building, Sanga, building, whatever, like you're building something. Well, the first thing you need to do is you need to bring, if you need other humans to support you, if you can't do it alone, if you want to do it with others, to bring just a lot more power and a lot more capacity, well, you have to tell them a story.

45:24Like, what are we doing? And, you know, fundamentally, why are we doing this, right? Like, what's the purpose behind this? And the corporate world has taken on that thing of purpose. and unfortunately it's a pretty void disconnected sense of purpose that lacks the energy of real purpose in most cases not in every case because you know the purpose of almost every corporation is make money and so they try to dress that up with whatever we're gonna increase wealth in families and we're gonna make them you know more effective and you know and and and that could be true and that sometimes is true, but you want to start with a purpose that's meaningful, that's going to motivate people.

46:12Like, what are we doing that's going to, you know, like have people, it's going to bring fire on people and then bring them into the fold, right? So a lot of leadership, there's really, I think the number one problem other than lack of real project fire and that's purpose. But some companies have that and some projects have that. is that we don't really trust the humans that show up to help us in that project. And the lack of trust manifests in all sorts of ways. And the truth is that when you bring humans with fire of a project and real trust of you, I see the potential in you and I see what you can do.

47:01I see your greatness. And you see more than they see on themselves. human beings just really react to that. And because of the truth is, is that our potential as humans, every single human is so enormous, and so much bigger than where we are today, that not trusting any human that they can't do certain things is kind of ridiculous, actually. And of course, we all, you know, that's not to say, you know, to be naive and to not understand where people are in their journey and their process and their capabilities. And of course, there's technical training. There's certain jobs that you require technical expertise.

47:41So all of that, of course, we have to live in reality and facts. But it's really that ability to just connect people to the purpose and to see their potential and to empower that and to really be a partner with them. Like my job in Sangha with my team is to help them in that journey of being the highest expression of the human being that they can be. And sometimes that may mean and will mean that their journey inside of Sangha or inside of Global X or inside of whatever project is like, OK, now you should go off and do this other thing. And it's going to be a massive loss for the business, but it's the right thing for you because you're just so powerful at this point.

48:27You can do so many things. And so, yes, you should now run for senator or you should now do whatever this other thing that you're being called into. So, yes, spot on. You know, leadership in humans, empowerment and capacity is just a beautiful field. What does balance mean to you? Yeah. Again, I sort of resist that word because balance goes back to that splitting of our lives into the professional and personal and family and spiritual. And I prefer to think about maybe integration. That's a better word than balance. You almost start from a balance perspective, as opposed to being imbalanced and trying to get there.

49:11Yes. If you're okay, that's a different question. If most people are out of balance. And so how do you go from out of balance to living in essentially the opposite of balance, which is in fire, right? In like total, like I'm like in fire, but in fire, there is power to the, to the word balance, because when you are in fire, you're also in balance. You're also in a place, you know, there's a quote from the Tao Te Ching that says something like the master stays at the center of the circle, yet everything gets done. And that's very true. That sort of describes what I was talking about of all of nature supporting you.

49:52More of a journey, if you're starting out of balance, how do you go into being in that place of being at the center of the circle and everything gets done? And what I needed to do when I started was to slow down and to reprioritize, to literally give up certain things and just create a little bit of space. Even if it's just that 10 minutes of journaling in the morning, asking that question. Super powerful. if if um a lot of us are in back-to-back zooms these days spend five minutes after a zoom call before you get into the next one going for a little walk taking a few breaths i mean even if if uh if i if i finish my call on the hour and my next call is starting right after i literally do a thing which i call the one minute meditation which is there's a breath technique for For example, I'll just explain the one I do.

50:55There's many ways to do these. But so pranayama, it's a way of calming the nervous system and really resetting from a fight-flight response to really being in a calm, present, balanced state. And so what I do is I breathe in for four units. It could be four seconds, but just a count of four. Hold the breath for seven and exhale for nine. Four, seven, eight. Exhale for eight. So in for four, hold for seven, exhale for eight. So if that's a second, that's 19 seconds. If you do that three times, that's a minute. So I do that between Zoom calls. If I'm going back to back, I just stay on my chair, do three times that breath, and I'm ready for the next call.

51:40That's kind of like a reset. So whatever your technique, it could be like a little walk. It could be a few breaths. It could be what's really powerful that's accessible for a lot of people is nature. And so if you can go, you know, ideally every day for like a 30 minute walk in nature alone in silence, without headphones, without music, without podcast, that's very, that's really powerful to connect us and relax our system. So I think just if we start from imbalance, bringing small moments of silence to our lives, just to give us a little bit of space for our true nature to start to, because the true nature comes through, we just need to give it a little bit of space.

52:25So, yes, creating a little bit of spaciousness, which, you know, what I just described doesn't take a lot of time, right? Ten minutes journaling in the morning, a minute between Zoom calls and maybe a 30 minute walk in nature. You know, that's less than an hour. And, you know, most of us can fit that if we reprioritize, you know, not watching that Netflix show or whatever. In my experience, daily life tends to force people to zoom in to what's right in front of them. And they get caught up in this task and the next task and the next task. And oftentimes, I find it helpful to, like you said, take a pause and zoom out and look at your world around you from a broader perspective.

53:11and then ask those questions of why am I doing this? Why am I here? How should I think about this? And it kind of those bigger questions need to be asked intentionally, because if you just let yourself go, you may not actually take the time to zoom out and view it from that perspective. I think that's exactly right. You know, one of the things that does exist in our culture is New Year resolutions. and within that some people do like a full year sort of review like a little bit of a pause and be like how was the last year you know where am i what do i want for the next year and so taking natural breaks like you know the new year to do um a little bit of a reflective exercise and you can go online and find a million types of kind of like year review type exercises those are really powerful.

54:07One of the things when I started this journey that I did, I did this exercise called the Lifeline Review or the Lifeline Exercise. I did it a second time and the power of that exercise and kind of the learnings that I received for that were so powerful. And I wonder how, it is amazing how very, very little time I had spent in my time actually reviewing my life. And, you know, we've worked really hard to build this life. We've gone through a lot of suffering and effort and sweat and tears. And we've sort of, this is the only data point that you have, or a series of thousands of data points that is custom-made for Alex or Bruno.

55:01Like this is really kind of, and if you think about it from our perspective, like our field, I don't think you'll find any successful active asset manager that wouldn't obsess about how they did in the past and the investment decisions that they made and the mistakes and the failures. That's a prerequisite to be a good investor. Yet we don't seem to be, I speak for myself, wasn't really spending very much time at all doing that with my own life. And what did I do? And how did I do it? And why am I where I'm here? And what are the decisions I made? And I think that exercise is incredibly powerful.

55:42How do you think about intelligence versus wisdom? There's a quote from Einstein that I'm not going to remember exactly how it goes, but it's something like, intuition is a sacred gift and our cognitive thinking, our intelligence is the servant. Yet we have created a culture that honors the servant and has forgotten about the gift. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that quote. and it sort of speaks to, I think, the right place of both intuition and cognitive thinking in that they're both tools, right? So these are tools. And for me, the way I think of wisdom is our ability to discriminate truth, which is much harder than we think.

56:40I, well, let's take somebody that we, humanity considers, and I consider to be one of the great wise people across human history, which is Seneca. Seneca said, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know anything at all, or I know nothing. That was not false humility. Seneca is, in fact, too wise. there's a very profound truth. And what Seneca is speaking to, which mirrors my experience, is when I was younger, I kind of thought I knew everything in a sense. I know how the system works. I know how to navigate the system. I'm very successful. I got this. I got this game. and now I actually think I really barely understand anything but this comes not from a place of despair this comes from a place of you know the great masters also talk about Jesus talked about you know be like a child be like a child doesn't mean you know have the children don't have wisdom But what children do have is just wonder.

57:55Everything around them is wondrous and an adventure and an opportunity. That's where I am now. I am in a place where I just look around me and I observe the reality of what's unfolding. and I am in constant awe of what in the world is going on and how does it work like this and what are these forces that are happening. And that's what I think Jesus meant of be like a child. It means that along with this other command, which is metanoia, change your consciousness. When you do that and you change your consciousness from this know-it-all person to like, oh my God, you really start realizing the deeper truth in front of our eyes, you develop the wonder of a child.

58:44And so what is wisdom? I do think it's kind of our ability to discriminate truth. But I said, I think it's really hard to do. So wisdom is a very, very scarce commodity, I think, in the world. I think it also has a lot to do with your frame of reference. Meaning, if you look at the world from close up, you may feel like you've got it all figured out. And my experience is as you get older, you realize how vast the universe is. And the more you zoom out, you realize how small you are and how little you actually know. And maybe part of wisdom is that realization that the universe of knowledge is so broad and so complex that you can't possibly ever know as much as you thought you did.

59:29Yeah, that's a beautiful way to say that. I love that analogy. One analogy that your example brings up along those lines is, imagine you're a cell in the human body and in the skin, and you kind of become a master. You figure it out. It's like, I know exactly how the game works. I know how to do it. When I get caught, I know how to navigate to generate and send the messages so that new cells are developed. And so I'm a master. I got these figured out. But the cell has no consciousness. It's like, well, I'm really part of this enormous system that's a human body. And a human body is part of this bigger system.

1:00:11And so I think that that is true. I think the more understanding you have, the more perspective you have, the more you zoom out, the more you realize, wow, this is pretty wondrous. Yeah. And then that also leads to that fire that you described, which is, you know, the universe is so vast. There's so much more to learn. There's so much more ability to grow. And that is what can drive you. And so that's a very different way of thinking about it than here's a specific finish line that I got to get to. And then let me move the finish line. This is more about growth, which is, I think, where we start our conversation.

1:00:46That's partially true, but that's more of an intellectual process of getting to the potential of wonder fire comes from the heart fire is when your heart really opens and it opens to love and you receive you become connected to something bigger than yourself that is the fire the fire is is that's income again going back to to einstein's kind of analogy you know the mind is the servant. The mind is here. It's a powerful tool. It's a very important tool to help us discriminate. But the real source of connection and truth, frankly, that when Einstein talks about intuition, what does intuition even mean?

1:01:37What is he referring to? The substance behind that really comes through the heart. And that's where fire and that life force, to use kind of the Taoist term or the Vedic kind of, you know, that that's where the fire comes from. And tying this back to leadership, when you're working with team members who may have limitations in certain areas, how do you approach their development? The first thing is love and compassion and understanding, because as you go through the journey, you realize that what I have been taking credit for all alone, maybe it's not entirely my doing. And maybe there's something bigger going on.

1:02:22And that's my belief today, against a psych connect or wine connects through those forces of nature and get supported by everything and these synchronicities happen. It's like, well, I'm not the one manufacturing this crazy coincidence of this person showing up or this, you know, incredible thing that just came into my life just when I needed it. And so, you know, that others are at different places in their journey, it's just part of the nature. And that was me at a different place. And so, the first place is just full compassion and understanding of where they may be. And also, the other side of it, full understanding of the potential of that human, of what they can actually be.

1:03:03And you see that with the great masters, like the great masters meet these people like Jesus, you know, the 12 people that he chose, you know, it's, it's the fisherman and the tax collector and, and the prostitute. And, you know, and it's just, it just, he sees the beauty and the potential. And just those two things, just those two things are already an enormous source of transformation. And the other thing that gets missed in leadership, because it's not observable with our eyes, but it is felt, it is a felt sense, is our own transformation. So the first thing a leader needs to do is to transform him or herself and grow.

1:03:48And when that happens and the leader is operating from a higher level of consciousness, that vibration and that love and that compassion is felt. You walk into the room and people feel it. And the fact that you know their potential, this is not an act, this is not a performance, you know it, they feel it. And so people respond to that. What's really interesting about the deepest level of leadership is that a lot of it happens really in silent ways, but there's a lot of work behind that. There's a lot of work behind our ability to show up in a room or a meeting or a presentation or a conference when you're just coming up and vibrating at a different level.

1:04:37And, you know, and then the rest is just tactical. And we can all figure that out, right? Like they may need, you know, some investment and some professional development in certain areas or maybe a coach or maybe. So those are more tactical things that when you're showing up with the combination of love and compassion and potential, then the rest is tactical. We can all solve the problem. You just mentioned a coach. We know most elite athletes have coaches throughout their careers. What are your thoughts on having a coach? It's interesting you mentioned elite athletes because when I was going through that journey of trying to become the best leader I could and...

1:05:19I had this sense of like, I should maybe hire a coach to, you know, to work with. And there was real resistance in my system. This is also a long time ago. So we're talking about maybe, you know, 15 years ago or something. And, you know, I grew up in a household where if you work with a psychologist, like that's, well, there's something wrong with you. And it was a huge stigma around that. And of course, like a coach just felt like another version of that. And so hiring a coach essentially is admitting a weakness within. And I was at this event and I was meeting this friend of mine. And I sense he sort of knew and he had maybe worked with coaches.

1:06:05And I asked him, I'm thinking of hiring a coach, what are your thoughts? And to the wisdom point, this was a person that I thought held some wisdom. him and he said he knew i was from spain he said uh bruno do you like tennis i said i love tennis you know rafa nadal and now carlos haykras they're like huge heroes of mine and he said okay what would you think if so this was 15 years ago what would you think if rafa nadal did not have a coach and it was so clear like it's like what i would that would be a massive mistake and he said well what makes you so special right because the other thing he said is he said do you think okay do you think rafa nadal would be one of the 20 best tennis minds in the world and i'm like okay i mean he's an incredible not only he's an incredible tennis player but he's an incredible mind and problem solver and and so yeah he very well may be one of the best 20 tennis minds in the world so the fact that you know somebody that can problem solve that he's at that level of like literally, you know, the 0.0001 % in the world.

1:07:12Still, it's obvious that that person needs a coach, that that's helpful. Made it very clear, like, okay, yes, I can. And it's not so much that I need a coach, but if I want to be the best leader I can possibly be, yes, let me enlist somebody that can be a bit of a mirror and bring him into the process or her to just support me in that journey. And so, you know, it's not for every context and every moment, but as a general principle, having a team of people that support you and that type of, you know, coaches these days have really great training and it's a very helpful process. And of course, it's like everything in life.

1:07:55There's people that are better and worse at their craft, but if you can find a really great coach, it can be life-changing. And it was in my case. Well, Bruno, this has been inspiring. I've enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I've learned a lot and I hope our listeners have as well. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Alex. Pleasure being with you. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please visit our website at insightfulinvestor.org to access past shows and learn more about our podcast. If you have questions, feel free to email us at info at insightfulinvestor.org.

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1:09:25Listeners should be aware that guests featured on the Insightful Investor may have current or past associations with Evoke Advisors or the host, including as an investment manager of a private fund opportunity by Evoke or access through an affiliated Evoke fund or as a client. Participation as a guest on the podcast should not be perceived as an endorsement or testimonial with respect to Evoke Advisors, the podcast host, or their services. Similarly, the inclusion of a guest on the podcast does not imply that Evoke Advisors or the host endorses the guest or any company with which they may be affiliated or employed.

1:10:04Evoke has neither paid nor received compensation from guests for their participation.