JOSH BROLIN and AUSTIN ABRAMS talk Whalefall

0:00Oh, hello. I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. I love autumn, Mark. It's the perfect excuse to stay in and settle down on the sofa to watch films. Maybe we could do a job swap and I could do it all year? Simon, film criticism is not just watching films. No? No, there's research, there's analysis, there's writing, there's broadcasting. Fair enough. But while you're busy doing all that, wouldn't it be nice if somebody else was taking care of some of life's more stressful jobs? What, you mean things like your pension? Precisely. Well, that's where Vanguard's managed personal pension service comes in.

0:35If you're ready to save for retirement, but you don't want to choose and manage your own investments, Vanguard can do it for you. They'll pick your funds based on how you feel about investment risk and when you plan to start taking money from your pension. Then they keep your investments on track by adjusting them over time so you're always invested at a level of risk that's right for you. So you can relax and watch all the films Mark has grafted so hard to review. Careful. And Vanguard manage your personal pension with the added reassurance of updates along the way. Search Vanguard managed personal pension to find out more.

1:08When investing, your capital is at risk. Tax rules apply. Now, Mark, I don't know why all these trendy podcasters need to sell such tat in their online shops these days. You'd have thought the show would have been enough for them. I mean, look at this tea towel. Simon, I think that's our shop you're browsing, isn't it? Oh, so it is. Actually, those Kermit and Mayor director's chairs are very nice, and it's all incredibly slick and easy. That's probably what confused me. That's because it's powered by Shopify. Shopify is where you go to start your business. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, which means our top production team can concentrate on, well, whatever it is that they do, while Shopify does all the hard work.

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2:34We'll see you next time.

2:52Luchu.

3:0815 years. 1 ,000 episodes. You will take holidays and compilation shows and being taken off air because of David Cameron or cricket or something. Between two and five awards. He can't remember exactly how many. One television series. Just the one for some reason. It was COVID. Give it a rest. Redacting thousands upon thousands of words on a whim. Giving concise advice on how to use Snapchat. Writing and or discovering some of the best dad jokes in the world. He's the man of a thousand voices in hot takes and cold comfort. All of them the same. and ruling with an iron fist. He's finally taking his chance.

3:55He's evolved from producer Simon to his final form, the redactor. And now, meaning we don't have to find and replace the presenter's first name in the script. It's your host, Simon Poole. We ready, been ready, I waited, my time.

4:19Hey, Mark. It's finally happened. The very definition of bigging your part up. So just to be absolutely clear to the listeners of what has happened is that Simon Mayo has gone away. Unwisely. You know he's riding on the Marrakesh Express. and because we are so cheap. Well, look, I did an extensive piece of research with the audience and decided that the best possible host when Simon's not here is me. Okay, and how extensive was that audience research? It was thousands and thousands of respondents over an extended... No, how many was it actually? I just kind of looked in the mirror. And you said fabulous.

5:12I pointed at myself. So just to be clear, welcome to Kermode and Mayo's take. Yes. The world's top film show, Mark. Yes, it's Kermode and Paul's take. And you're literally in the presenter's seat. You're in the podcast central. Podcast central. Theoballs Road. Some of my favourite films up behind me. Yes, you've decorated your office with images of... A little bit of mise-en-scene. Exorcist 2, The Heretic. The best one. The Melania documentary. Amazing. Battlefield Earth. Based on a true story. Sex and the City 2. Yes. Yes. And The Hottie and the Knotty. With its fantastic moral message. Thank you for your attention to detail.

6:00And now, just because I'm... Clearly, because the way that this works, and just so you know the way that this works, is that Simon Mayo would drive the show. Yeah. Okay. Like literally would be in charge of everything. My role is the critic. And so you are now, you have your hand on the tiller. Yes, I do. And it's, I tell you what, I speak for the whole producer community of the world who look through a double glazed glass and say - I could do that. Why is he saying that? Why is he doing that? Why isn't he stopped? Well, now we're about to find out how easy slash hard it is. How do you think it's going so far?

6:37I think it's going fine so far, but we haven't got to the first junction yet. I also need to point out that, you know, for ages and ages, I had to apologise for the fact that my roof was being replaced. And I said, sorry if there's any noise. Well, the roof is fixed, as you know. Before that, there was the boiler. But now they're digging up the road outside because they're re-tarmacking the road. So if you hear any crashing and banging, it's not me banging my head against the side of the studio. It's the fact that they're now dismantling the road. on which I live. Roof expenditure, one of the most annoying household expenditures because you can only really see it if you've got a drone or you're flying in an aircraft.

7:14And nobody comes around and says, ooh, your roof looks nice. Come and have a look at my roof. Okay, good. Well, look, I just want to get serious for a moment, Mark, because we've worked together for 15 years. Is it that long? It's 15. It's 15 years. I had one child. I've now got two. I started off as a producer and now here I am kind of running the show. And I just want to say, it is such a privilege to work on this. And we don't often talk about this, like take a step back and talk about it. But it is an amazing show to work on. Not least because you're okay to work with and Simon's okay to work with.

7:48But the audience, I think, are the best audience in the world. And every time I go through those emails on a Monday, I am staggered, astounded and delighted by the new ideas and the new angles on films and not films that they send in. I think it's a real privilege to be right in the middle of it and to work with you and to work with Simon because I think our people are special. You see, I don't know whether... It's very hard to judge whether this is a sarcastic walk up the path to a punchline or whether what you're trying to do is ingratiate yourself with the audience. We've got plenty of punchlines coming up.

8:26There's no punchline. I just wanted to say that. They're great. Are you doing laughter lift? Yeah. Right. It's a cracker today. Just so everyone knows, you write the laughter lift anyway. So for the first time, you're actually going to write and present laughter lift. That's correct. There'll be no sandbagging. There'll be no exasperated sighs as punchlines approach. Are you going to cut my microphone off? Enough of that. Let's see. What are you reviewing today? Well, we've got a packed show. We have the new Street Fighter, the latest adaptation of the very successful video game. We have Forgotten Island, which is a Zip Zang Boom animation.

9:07And we have Whalefall with your special guests. Yes, they are Josh Brolin of, let's count them off, No Country for Old Men, Sicario, Milk, Avengers, Dune, etc, etc, etc. And Austin Abrams of Weapons and Resident Evil fame. They talk to me about their new film Whalefall, as well as The Goonies. and indeed if Josh enjoys acting more than having the squits. You can hear that a little later on. I'll tell you what, Mark. I'm looking forward to your review of... Later, Mark. I just wanted to say that... With that, I'm excited to learn whether it'll be a...

9:49Or a... Type situation. But I've got a feeling a lot of people will be saying... After you've... given us your review. Stay with us to hear Mark's verdict on that film. What do you think about that production, Mark? Do you recognise any of those sounds? So much, so much production. Well, I imagine, because as you know, I'm not a video game player, I imagine that those are sounds from the original Street Fighter video game. Indeed, sounds from the original Street Fighter game by Capcom, I think, which I used to play in the Tivoli arcade in Herne Bay in the 80s. Can't wait to hear if this is finally a good Street Fighter film.

10:21I'm not sure. Just looking at your face, I'm not quite sure that's going to be the case. And movie reviews in Take Two, Mark? In Take Two, the Influencer project, which is sold as coming from the creators of the Blair Witch Project, which is only partly true. And 25th anniversary, which is shocking, of The Others, 25th anniversary reissue of The Others. So, revisiting that chiller classic, that 12A certificate, genuinely frightening. Can't wait to hear about that. I showed it to my family about six months ago, and they absolutely loved it so I can't wait to talk about that. You can get Take-Two ad free by heading to our Patreon page, just search Kermode Mayo Patreon and you'll find us, it really is worth it and to celebrate I've hacked the system and I'm offering a 90 % off code that runs until Sunday.

11:08So that code is REDACT90 R-E-D-A-C-T 90 and it runs until Sunday. I'm so confident that once you've enjoyed our extra exclusive content you'll stay. Mark we're back on Christopher oh dear so you'll remember our Spaceman Came Travelling thread it was banned in South Africa in the 70s on that album because the South African authorities thought it was blasphemous we've had an email here from Roger dear Mark and Simon and the world class production team big tick you're going to have to stop reading out the world class production team stuff if you're actually presenting the program You have to get yourself into it.

11:50It's them or us. Roger speaks the truth. All right. You can't be on both sides. You can't be a filmmaker and a film critic. You can't be a presenter and a production team. For the purposes of this program, you have to be snarky about the production team. That's a good note. All right. I'm going to start that again. Okay. Dear Mark and Simon. And then he says something which clearly isn't true. Long-term listener, several-time emailer, as yet never read out a Hi Roger. I'm currently spending a lot of time driving to and from my late father's house, sorting through a lifetimeed accumulation of stuff and as a result I've been catching up on the podcast.

12:22I particularly enjoyed the recent discussion about Christopher or Christopher Blur as I call him whenever Lady in Red appears. When my eldest son was about four, we had a Christmas compilation CD that's got to be now exclamation mark the Christmas album because there is no other. The spaceman came travelling came on. He immediately disappeared behind the sofa saying, I don't like it. At first we assumed this was remarkably advanced musical judgment. we later realised it was the spooky noises at the start of the song that genuinely frightened him. Now aged 26, if it comes on at Christmas, one of us will say, turn it off, he'll be scared.

12:57So there you have it. Not just a terrible song, a song that literally scared children up with the good stuff. Hello to Jason. Are there spooky noises? Well, I asked a musicologist friend what could possibly have terrified a four-year-old child. And I had this response. It's too long, but I'll give you the highlights. so it's ambiguity synthesizer sounds don't resemble familiar instruments so children generally prefer sounds they can identify lack of rhythmic certainty so the introduction drifts rather than establishing a strong beat, high sustained tones long held notes in the upper register, as you'll know Mark from your book long held notes in the upper register are often used in film scores to create tension, mystery or the sense that something unusual is about to happen.

13:44There's also large reverberant space in the production, expectation and delay, and then lyrically it's a cross between a Christmas carol, a science fiction story, and a supernatural visitation narrative. So to an adult, the central conceit is intriguing, but to a child it contains unsettling elements, so mysterious stranger arriving from the sky, nobody understands what's happening, story unfolds in a dreamlike way, repeated references to a message that will only be understood in a million years suggests something vast and incomprehensible, and so on and so on. But mainly, Mark, it's the key. Principally in D minor.

14:19Oh, the saddest of all keys? Just the saddest of all keys. There we go. Yeah, I think the main problem is that it's a song by Chris de Bourgh. I think that's the biggest underlying issue with it. Yes, that is the biggest underlying issue with it. But I'm not sure a four-year-old would have achieved a kind of cultural knowledge to make that judgment. I'm not sure. Sure, I think you can listen to a Christenberg song at any level of educational development and know immediately the smell of cheese. I mean, I think... Well... Anyway, I'm glad we broke it down. I'm glad we broke it down, musicologically speaking.

14:54Musicologically, Spaceman Came Travelling, this is the place to come. So something that hopefully doesn't terrify four-year-olds, Mark, tell us about The Forgotten Island. What a seamless segue that was. Okay, Forgotten Island. Big, noisy, colourful DreamWorks animation written and directed by Joel Crawford and Juan Manuel, pardon me, Mikado. Voice cast includes Her, H-E-R, Lisa Ciburano, Dave Franco, Jenny Slate, a bunch of other people. So in the Philippines, two misfit kids meet and bond at school. They are Joe and Raisa. They are chalk and cheese, best friends forever. One is an anarchic agent of chaos.

15:31One is studious and nerdy. Both are outsiders because they meet outside the headmaster's office where they've both been sent for very different reasons. So there are some very moving opening scenes. We see them growing up together. They're absolutely inseparable. We hear stories of the magical world of Nakali, which they're told about by an adult figure. This is a land of monsters and magic, which is apparently entered through an elusive portal which one could search for for the whole of their lives. They do search for the portal, but they don't find it until their last night together where one is going off to study at Caltech, the other is going to be stuck serving fast food, at which point suddenly the magical talismanic thing appears that opens up the hole and they get swept into a whole new world.

16:20Here is a clip from the trailer. Do you want to be best friends? Cool. I've never had a best friend before. Me neither. Want to come over to my house and hear my Lola stories? Let's go! Once upon a time, there was a magical Santa. Look! No way. A bright portal opened up. Alright, let's go! Wait, what? We can't! This is fate!

16:59And boom, next thing they are in the magical world. So the film is a very weird mashup of different elements. It's got the animation style ranges from, you know, the kind of Lilo and Stitch animation that we're all kind of quite familiar with to something which looks a little bit like Demon Slayer, Moogantrain. And then the themes of it swing from, on the one hand, it's like a coming of age story and coming of age bonding rituals. Then there's a whole other thing going on which is like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which is about memories and about what happens when you have your memories and what happens when somebody else steals your memories and whether or not identity is formed entirely by memory.

17:39So on one level, it's a story about best friend children growing up together and then spending their last night together before they're separated. Weirdly enough, I was at Act One in Acton over the weekend because they just did their fifth birthday. I did an onstage with Walter Murch about American graffiti. Of course, American graffiti is the classic, this is their last night together. After this, some of them are going off to college. Of course, as we know, it's kind of end of innocence. On the one hand, it's that. On the other hand, it's this kind of actually quite visually daring tale of identity construction.

18:14And it's got some genuinely scary creations in it that make it not fit for the littlies. It's weird because the BBFC certificate is PG and it's officially PG for threat, violence, injury, detail, language, dangerous behavior, and rude humor, for which I can only say kids today don't know they're born if that's what PG is. It says under threat and horror on the BBFC advice, a demonic creature menaces characters in sustained sequences of tension, to which I can only say, yes, that does happen. And it is, I think, genuinely quite scary. I don't mean that in a bad way, because I think animation is designed to do all these things.

18:54And if you've got scary monsters, they're designed to be scary monsters, and they are probably scary. And of course, I grew up anyway watching Ray Harryhausen movies, which had big, scary stop motion monsters so i'm all for that i'm just saying it's absolutely not for the littlies um it was quite an expensive animation and it doesn't look like it's a box office hit which is a shame because anything that's got an original ip nowadays is sort of is to be lauded because if you want to make an animation that makes its money back now what you do is you do something which has got an ip that everyone's familiar with or what you do is what disney are doing, which is that you do a live action remake of an already existing, you know, Disney animated, I mean, because that's weirdly the only way in which you can guarantee to make your money back.

19:38So it's, I, I laud the fact that it's, it's original. It takes some big swings. It doesn't hit all of them. It's kind of incoherent in places. And there are, there are times that you sense that it's kind of getting away from itself, but I enjoyed it. And I thought it was kind of big and romping and vibrant and kinetic enough that I was never bored by it. But I'll be very interested to see who it plays to. Because as I said, it's too scary for a very young audience, but it might find itself falling between two stools. I can't figure out exactly who it is aimed at. So parents should definitely use a little bit of caution if your little ones get scared easily.

20:24yeah go to the bbfc website and read their breakdown which gives you a pretty full analysis of everything that's in it but all i can tell you is look me 63 grow up on horror movies all the rest of it there is a demonic sort of presence in this film which i found genuinely creepy i mean like genuinely properly creepy in the way that there was stuff in demon train that i thought was it was genuinely properly creepy i agree with you i think children should be scared from time to time i don't think you should write them up yeah it's good for you character building After the break we've got the box office top 10 The Laughter Lift Street Fighter and my chat with Whaleful stars Josh Brolin and Austin Adams and a quick reminder there are only a few tickets left for our Christmas special which this year is at Bristol Beacon on December 6th Head to the address on the show notes for the chance to appear in a table read with Mark and Simon of some classic abridged Christmas movies that's the first Mark's heard of that so that's December 6th at 7pm we'll be back after these exciting, important and useful words

21:25Oh hello, I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. I love autumn, Mark. It's the perfect excuse to stay in and settle down on the sofa to watch films. Maybe we could do a job swap and I could do it all year? Simon, film criticism is not just watching films. Er, no? No, there's research, there's analysis, there's writing, there's broadcasting. Fair enough. But while you're busy doing all that, wouldn't it be nice if somebody else was taking care of some of life's more stressful jobs? What, you mean things like your pension? Precisely. Well, that's where Vanguard's managed personal pension service comes in.

22:00If you're ready to save for retirement, but you don't want to choose and manage your own investments, Vanguard can do it for you. They'll pick your funds based on how you feel about investment risk and when you plan to start taking money from your pension. Then they keep your investments on track by adjusting them over time so you're always invested at a level of risk that's right for you. So you can relax and watch all the films Mark has grafted so hard to review. Careful. And Vanguard manage your personal pension with the added reassurance of updates along the way. Search Vanguard managed personal pension to find out more.

22:34When investing, your capital is at risk. Tax rules apply. Hey Mark Kermode, fancy a fun quick fire quiz? I thought you'd never ask. Great. How do you protect yourself from spoilers? We never watch the end of the film. Well, a bit impractical, but fine. How do you protect yourself from getting wound up by noisy cinema goers? There's no need. I'm a very tolerant man, as you know. How do you protect yourself from getting bored of The Exorcist? It's impossible. Anyway, shall we start this fun quiz? What's more fun than being well protected? Okay, is that part of the quiz? I'm doing the questions, thank you.

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23:50Welcome back. It's the UK box office top 10, Mark, and it's a farewell this week. 13 weeks in the top 10. It's the UK number 10, still number nine in the States. It's The Odyssey. Goodbye, The Odyssey. Yes, I don't think there's anything left to say about The Odyssey, other than that if you haven't seen The Odyssey yet, what are you doing? Because regardless of what you think of it, it is one of the most important films of the year. I've seen it a couple of times now, and I think it's worth going to see for the Samantha Morton sequence alone, and I've said it before and I will say it again, I am now absolutely convinced that Samantha Morton is going to win Best Supporting Actress for her performance in The Odyssey.

24:27I'm absolutely sure of that. You've got money on it? No, no, no. I'm never betting money on it again because after that, the horrible humiliation of winning badly. The accumulator gate. Yeah, no, no. Yes, accumulator gate. No, that was God telling me not to bet and so I'm never ever going to do that again. I've just, it's not just that her performance is great. There's just something, I feel like it's the right moment. So there we go. I've probably now completely jinxed her chances. At number nine, it's Digger at US, number eight. This is probably Digger's last week in the top 10. That means it lasted two weeks.

25:02For a film which cost$165 million, it was greenlit at$125, but it probably ended up costing$165. That is very bad. and it's actually kind of disappointing because the film has really divided people the people who like it really really like it some people really really hate it i didn't really hate it at all i didn't like it i think it doesn't work i think it pulls itself together in the third act but i think it's got fundamentals but as you will know because you put it in the script last week um the good lady professor her indoors wrote an impassioned uh defense of it on social media which ended up saying, Kermode, you're wrong, because that is literally how she refers to me, Kermode, you're wrong.

25:43So on Thursday, we're recording this show on Wednesday. Tomorrow, we are going back to the Newland Filmhouse to both watch it together, not least because I suspect that's the last time we're going to get to see it, because it's not going to be in cinemas very long. And whatever reservations I have about it, I would say this. You probably do need to see it because it is a big, important, interesting film. And if you're going to see it, you need to do it now because it's not going to be around very long at this rate. I have to say the correspondence on this one generally has been favourable into the show.

26:23Yes, it has. And it may also be an age thing. Guillermo del Toro absolutely thinks it's an age thing. I can't lie about it. I didn't think it worked. But the good lady professor, her indoors, she said she thought it might be a great movie. And in the past, she has been right. For example, she was right about AI, but I am going to give it the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to go back and see it at the Newland Filmhouse tomorrow with her and we'll see. But honestly, go and see it, people. Go and see it because it is worth seeing it to have an opinion on it. So just, you were talking there about the failure of it commercially.

27:01So let's have a recap. It's directed by Oscar-winning director Alejandro Gonzalez in Yari 2. It's got Tom Cruise, Riz Ahmed, Sandra Huller, John Goodman, Jesse Plemons. Budget of 180 million and another 100 in marketing. More than Top Gun Maverick. Story by Jez Butterworth of Jerusalem fame. Yes. And it's going to lose Warner Brothers$245 million. Yes, that sounds about right. which is sounds a bit spursy okay that's a football joke which i don't get but i kind of think i do because of because of simon mayo i mean it is it is astonishing how much it cost and how badly it's done at the box office and i've seen a lot of people say there was a guillermo del toro i put a thing which said uh if you see digger you will want to you will want to beat critics up with your bare hands and i do you know i understand the thing about the film the film needs to be defended by people that like it.

27:59Critics haven't killed it. It's not the critics that are stopping people going to see it. Honestly, the worst thing about Digger is the trailer, because the trailer is profoundly off-putting, because the trailer does not know how to sell the film. And I think that is their big issue. It's not just that the... Because the critics have been divided. They've been generally kind of not great, but they've been divided. But there have been some people, I think Robbie, for example, really, really liked it. the biggest problem they had is that the trailer made the film look like either what on earth is that or i definitely don't want to see that i think the trailer is a disaster i completely agree also i agree with you i didn't know what the spoilers that they were worried about were that we weren't supposed to mention and no it was it was like so which part of this are we not allowed to talk about i think it would have been much better i saw somebody put a thing on social media which said um the minute they just start allowing whole clips of digger to be put online is the point at which interest in it will pick up because anything other than that trailer i think you can probably assume that there's a bit of fm dung's effect in there but of distancing that's not a spoiler surely is that what they were talking about because they were kind of four or five different twists in there if that's what i don't know i know and they were none of them were twists anyway because everything is set up at the beginning i mean literally the curtains go back at the beginning.

29:17It's like, it's not a twist. The debate continues in the Overflow Car Park of Love in take two. Number eight in the UK, nowhere in the US, Shaun the Sheep, the Beast of Posse Bottom, been out for four weeks. Absolutely loved it. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Big fan of Shaun the Sheep. If you're a fan of sort of non-verbal comedy, old school kind of slapstick, it's just terrific. I loved it. New entry at number seven, it's The Uprising. This is the new Paul Greengrass film, which he was talking to Simon about last week. In fact, the interview was so long that we split it over take one and take two.

29:50It's always great to hear Paul Greengrass talk about his films. I don't know that Uprising works as well as it should do. Simon certainly liked it more than I did. I am very interested in the story of the President's Revolt, President's Uprising. But I think the film itself is slightly confused. I think the problem with the film is it doesn't quite know what question it's asking. And Paul Greengrass said in the interview, the best way to make a film is to have a question that you're asking and the answer to it is the film. And I still don't know what question it was asking. But there are things in it that are good.

30:25I think the whole Robin Hood thing is an absolute red herring and should just be a great read. Here's Alex Addison, Dear Mark and Simon. After listening to your review, an excellent interview with Paul Greengrass. It was very good. We went to see The Uprising on Sunday. I liked it. The husband wasn't so keen. Too much shouting and violence for him. Looking past that, what I found fascinating is that more than 600 years after the event, the film's general premise felt very current. I think Simon is right. The rulers at the time had a giant database of personal information which they used to control the masses.

30:53Tech bros, anyone? The message I took away was how powerless we still are. In 1381, no one gave us stuff about the common people, and they don't now. For me, the only jarring note was the ending. It gave hope while I take a more nihilistic view. Kind regards, Alex. Yeah, I think that's perfectly fine. I think the fact that there was two of you, one was going with it, one wasn't, I think that's going to be fairly common. And I do think it's an important story. And I think the point that Simon made about the first thing that they do is effectively sack a data centre is exactly right. And Paul Greengrass had clearly thought that through because when he said it, Paul Greengrass went, yeah, exactly.

31:32All right, number six in the UK, Sense and Sensibility. I like this more than some other critics did. I thought it was actually a really enjoyable adaptation. I laughed, I cried. I thought George Mackay was fantastic and I thought it had just enough dirt under its fingernails to give it a bit of grit, but it was still kind of uplifting and yes, I enjoyed it very much. At UK5, US6, The Social Reckoning, another new entry. Dear Woodward and Bernstein, the film desperately wanted to be all the president's men but lacked any real menace or peril, making it hard to care about the outcome. As Mark said, Mr Mahogany shouldn't have been second choice director.

32:05He should have been the choice after everyone else said no. The cast was strong, particularly the leads, but Betty Gilpin was badly wasted. In Fincher's hands, this might have been gripping. Great writer, poor director. The constant time shifts were irritating, the dialogue overcomplicated, and the attempted humour rarely landed. The clumsy Francis-slash-Jeff-will-they-won't-they subplot was especially weak. What I wanted was a deeper examination of Zuckerberg, genius mastermind or awkward nerd overwhelmed by the monster he created. Instead, there was very little beneath the surface. The best thing about the film was spending two hours in air-conditioned comfort away from the Indian summer heat of downtown Los Gatos.

32:42From Mark Woodruff. Thanks, Mark. I mean, it is interesting that Sorkin is a much better screenwriter than he is a director. And as he said, when he said he was his own second choice, I agree. I think he should have been his own sort of fifth, sixth or seventh choice. I also think that the music, the more I think about the music in Social Reckoning, the more it's not just that the original score for Social Network was so great. I think it's just that the music this time around is so overladen, so explanatory, so leading you through that it makes the thing seem cheesier than it is. I liked it more than that email suggests, but I didn't like it as much as Simon Mayo did.

33:25It has pretty much tanked. I mean, when you consider this is its first week and the amount of publicity it had, the fact that it was on all the news shows, like it was on the Today programme, opening at number five is not good. So it's following on the heels of Digger. I mean, it's not quite in the same financial aspect as that, but following on the heels of Digger, it is a hotly anticipated movie that has absolutely not set the world on fire. And I do think that Sorkin needs to write, but he needs to get somebody else to direct. And number four is Resident Evil. Been out for four weeks now. Yeah, and doing very well.

34:01And we had a lot of interesting correspondence about whether or not it is about something. We had a great email last week with somebody explaining a kind of really, really kind of complicated reading of what the film is about. And I think it's great fun that people are getting that. I just enjoyed it. And I thought, as we'll see later on, anything when you're doing an adaptation of a video game is a difficult thing to do. But I thought Resident Evil actually got it right. Three here, four in the US, Heart of the Beast. And this I don't get at all. I mean, it's like, yeah, Brad, he's got a dog.

34:33Okay. It's just that. It's literally just that. And then somebody wrote in, I think it was when we did the last Hot Takes Cold Comfort thing, and somebody said, yeah, well, unless you've actually been stranded in the wilderness with a dog, you haven't got any right to review this movie. Okay, fair enough. If you're actually a combat veteran who was stranded in the wilderness with nothing but a dog, then I will take your criticism over mine. For the rest of us, it's just Brad Pitt and a dog. Sometimes that's enough. And sometimes it isn't. Two in the UK, two in the US. It's Verity. Which I enjoyed.

35:15I thought it was fun. I mean, from the pen of the Nick Sparks du Nostre, Colin Hoover continues to write books that are turned into hit movies. I mean, it's ripe and it's overcooked and it makes no sense. And it's absolutely got one foot in the old school, straight to video erotic thrillers camp, although it's got an A-list cast. And I thought it was fun. It was just weird that last week it opened at number one when Digger opened at number four. And things are really being shaken up at the moment in terms of what actually ends up taking money, which incidentally brings us to the number one spot.

35:59And I'm just going to preempt you on this. The number one spot is Other Mummy. and I would have reviewed Other Mummy were it not for the fact that the national press show of Other Mummy, which was booked in, was cancelled at the last moment. So we were all told, yes, you're going to see the film, you're going to be able to review it. And then literally at the last moment they said, oh no, we're cancelling the screening and we're not replacing it with another screening. So it was withheld from the critics. So I haven't seen it. You, however, have. So, Simon. I just went to the cinema, Mark. I just went to the cinema.

36:35I paid my money. Curse and Canterbury. Friday lunchtime. You weren't watching eight other films as part of the National Press screening. But as you continue to big your role up, not only are you a presenter, you are now a critic. Well, look, I'm not a film critic. I'm just an interested amateur. But what I'd like, shall I have a go? Can I have a masterclass? So, Other Mummy is the latest from director Rob Savage, who you may remember from Host, the screen life horror which took place entirely on zoom which i loved host loved host and as as everyone did and released over lockdown in 2020 and we all loved it he also made dash cam a year later and the solid i think we thought it was solid the boogie man in 2023 yeah slightly ruined by you for you by the overzealous security at the screening with their big powerful torches yeah oh yes god that's right there was a security guard literally shining his ruining the vibes amongst the aisles to make sure nobody was with his massively powerful torch um This stars a terrific Arabella Olivia Clark as eight-year-old daughter Bella, Jessica Chastain as Ursula Martin, Bella's mommy, and indeed the titular Other Mommy.

37:40That isn't a spoiler. We learned this quite early on. Jay Duplass in the well-meaning mess slash stubbly sad optimist type character he's so good at. In this case, he's stepdad Dado, Russ Martin, Bella's father, and Ursula's husband. The story is based on Incidents Around the House by Josh Mallerman. I'd not heard of that before, but it is based on that. Martin family life seems to be under strain. Bella begins encountering a strange presence in her home, a supernatural figure she calls Other Mummy because it looks exactly like her mother. We open to an epigraph attributed to Erebus, the Greek primordial deity of darkness, which says humans have one thing that demons don't, being alive, and that is what demons covet most.

38:20Here's a clip. Hey, sweetie. You're home. I had a lunch break. I thought I'd come home and eat with you. Where's Dad? He fell asleep in the office. I'll go get him. Let him sleep. He needs his rest. Cookie dough ice cream for lunch. What kind of mother would I be? How about scrambled eggs? And that for breakfast. That's right. I forgot. How about pasta? Your favorite. Do you want to know something silly? Yes. Sometimes I think about when you and I were one person. Do you remember that? So I was a baby in your tummy. Do you remember where you were before that? No.

39:07Josh Brolin: You were in my heart. We learn very quickly that the encounters with other mommy have been going on for a while before we join the story, but they begin to become increasingly disturbing. At first, the adults dismiss it as imagination, but as the encounters become more disturbing, increasingly impossible to explain, Bella's family is forced to confront the possibility that something genuinely malevolent has attached itself to their lives. So the underlying what if is what if the thing every child fears is that their parent isn't their parent anymore. So you can think about Coraline, Jordan Peele's Us and of course Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

39:44So the good things. It's a cracker of a performance by Arabella Olivia Clark. Savage conjures up an initial atmosphere of a kind of fairground queasiness. and I was hoping that that was going to build up and build up, but it doesn't. And of course Jessica Chastain is doing her best to wring meaning out of the script. You can kind of see why she signed on a bit, but unfortunately for me this felt like putting a Ferrari engine in a Ford Focus. The problem is that the atmosphere Rob Savage creates in the first act is far more interesting than the story that eventually emerges from it. What begins as a genuinely unsettling piece of domestic horror just gradually turns into a procession of jump scares, Loud, stabby musical stings, increasingly convoluted mythology.

40:30And I did think about a video that I'd seen by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, South Park. They had that famous rule about storytelling. If the words connecting your scenes are, and then, you're in trouble. They should be connected by therefore or but. This felt like an and then film. And then this happened. And then this happened. And then this happened. So for me, that's what stopped the tension building. It was quite frustrating because there is a good film in there. And he's obviously a talented filmmaker. I thought we were genuinely heading for an upsetting fairy tale. But it just was much more conventional that.

41:05Okay. So here's my question. Do you understand, having seen it, why they pulled the national press show? Yeah. It's rubbish. Oh, okay, fine. So you wouldn't have shown it to critics either? No, I think it just tips over into the critics are just going to tear this a new one. So let's let the people decide. Okay. And to be fair, the screening I was in was about half full at lunchtime on a Friday, if that's a bellwether of how well this is going to do. I mean, obviously it's going to do well, because it's at number one. Well, hey, listen, it opened at number one. My feeling about it is this. I think that having not seen the film, having heard your description of it, it doesn't sound terrible.

41:41It sounds like some of it works and some of it doesn't. However, pulling the national press show at the last moment is a major mistake. And if I was the filmmaker, I would be really, really cross about it. because, as I said, I haven't seen it yet and I will catch up with it. I suspect that it will drop like a stone. It was number one now. I suspect that everyone went to see it in the opening weekend and then it's, you know, because the word about it isn't good. But honestly, distributors, booking in a national press show and then pulling it is literally like saying, we think this is a stinker.

42:17It's worse than not putting it in the diary at all. It is, it is. If you just don't show it, fine, fair enough. don't book a screening and then pull it because it just looks like you're panicking all right still to come mark reviews of these films still to come reviews of what we're doing a street fighter and whale fall with our special guests yep it's josh brolin and austin abrams and you can hear that after these messages

42:43hello mark kermode hello simon mayo quick question what's your autumn signature dish Why are you asking? Because I suspect the answer is a takeaway. That is deeply unfair. But is it? Sometimes it's delivery. Well, perhaps it's your pans that are holding you back. Food sticking, pans burning, uneven heat. That's unusually generous of you. Gordon Ramsay uses hex clad at home and in his restaurants. You could try them. They combine the searing performance of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick. so you get great cooking results without the usual cleanup headache. They're dishwasher safe and easy to clean.

43:22Plus, every Hexclad product comes with a lifetime warranty so they could genuinely be the last pans you'll ever buy. Upgrade to Hexclad and make everyday cooking easier. For a limited time, listeners get 15 % off with our exclusive link at hexclad.co.uk slash take. That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D hexclad.co.uk forward slash take. Offer excludes bundles and other items already on sale. Support the show and let them know we sent you. So you're not worried about hosting the whole family for the holidays? Why would I be? Wayfair had everything I needed to get the house holiday ready. What if Mike brings his cheerful dogs?

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44:32Welcome back. Our guests this week are the stars of the forthcoming film Whale Fall, Josh Brolin and Austin Abrams. Mark it's almost embarrassing to read some of these films out like everyone knows who Josh Brodin is don't they? The Goonies, No Country for Old Men, Milk, W or Dubya, how would you say that? Sicario, Hail Caesar Avengers Endgame, Weapons Dune, Dune Part 2 and then Austin Abrams you might know him from The Walking Dead or if you're a fan of Euphoria on HBO Wolves very annoying name for a film that and Weapons of course which he was terrific in and then Resident Evil still in the UK top 10.

45:08They star together in the new film Whalefall based on the novel by Daniel Krauss. You can hear my chat with them after this clip from the film. Think you're kind of scaring them a little bit if you want to slow down.

45:23Josh Brolin: You know I met this biologist once. He said that sperm whales have a vocal fold. Very strange. Her theory was that baby whales use it to cry out to their mommies. You know, the day you were born, you cried so hard you popped a little hole in your lung. Anyway, baby sperm whales quit crying when they grow up, just like you. They still have that hole in their larynx, totally asymmetrical, so they can eat squid all day long. But really, they could be making the loudest scream in the sea. That would get those lovers' attention, don't you think?

46:07That was a clip from Whalefall, and I'm joined now by Josh Brolin and Austin Abrams, who play Jay and Mitt Gardner in the film. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Introduce us to your characters and the world of the film. Sure. I mean, my character's name is Jay. He's someone that is, you know, kind of when you meet him, he's like recently lost his father to cancer and they had a really tumultuous relationship where I feel like he always, but he always wanted to be closer. Yeah. And then kind of goes, you know, I don't know how much I should say, but he, he, he like kills himself so that he doesn't have to go through like the rest of the process of dying from the cancer and then my character goes and tries to find him in the ocean.

47:00I feel like that was a terrible description of it. It's hard to describe. I don't know. Yeah.

47:05Josh Brolin: It's hard to describe. Josh, tell us about the ornery Midgardner. Is that what you thought? Ornery? Yeah. I think he is desperately in love with his son and unable to express that in a way that his son can really take it in and understand it. Do you know what I mean? I think he comes from a very old school mentality that has more to do with poking, you know, to display affection than something that I think he could understand. So, yeah, and the fact that his father is always with him, whether when he was living or after he dies, the whole reason why he goes down is not only to look for his bones, which is impossible, but goes down to where he knows he jumped off the boat to try and save face in some way or try to understand him in some way.

48:06Josh Brolin: I mean, that's the thing with tension, is that you carry it with you until, I mean, the best thing that could have happened to him is get swallowed by a whale and have to be in a life or death situation in order to have this redemptive moment with his father. Actors are often told, I think, to find things they have in common with a character. Did either of you find time trying to find things that you didn't have in common for the role? because Josh, your character, is a massive presence in the film, but he's not on screen all the time. I'm interested in, Austin, how you played against, essentially, not much when you were in The Whale.

48:45Sure. I'm interested in how you'd... It's quite an unusual narrative structure, how the two of you worked together, planned the role, planned the collaboration. I can't necessarily say what was planned just because it was more, I feel like, intuitive to a degree. but I mean there was certainly an understanding of kind of like if you're talking about kind of like the flash the memories of when we were together there definitely was like an understanding of like okay where's Jay at especially after just having that flashback and the audience just seeing that and like where's he at in terms of like how he's feeling about his father you know because the whale basically becomes like a symbol of that and whatnot.

49:33So that was important to keep in mind where the character was at. But yeah, I can't say there was a lot necessarily planned, at least between the two of us. I think it was a lot of feeling things out.

49:47Josh Brolin: But we talked about family a lot. In the beginning, we talked about our own experiences with our own family. And then we just let it be. You know what I mean? and then it just happened. I read your memoir from under the truck preparing for the interview and I was hoping you were going to talk a little bit about that as a father and as a son and what you drew from your experience. It was inevitable that it brought all that stuff up and even stuff that I didn't necessarily feel like I wanted to think about or wanted to, had to work on and with my dad or my son and my son and I talk about it. My dad and I don't necessarily talk about it But there's always a generational thing that we blame.

50:30We go, you know, they're from a different generation.

50:34Josh Brolin: That's why they're... And that's not always the case. It's just when you miss, there's nothing worse because society has put on you that you're supposed to connect more with your family than with anybody. And that's not necessarily obviously the case because I've had so many mentors in my life that are father figures that now as an older person, I look back and I go, oh, my dad did good, man. I gave my dad such a hard time when I was a kid because I was like all full of fire and all that. And he was like, hello out. When you were in the Cito Rats running around at that time. I mean, did you find yourself going back to the novel to help you build the character?

51:30Because we have actors on who, like Olivia Colman, for example, never does any background reading at all. Everything just comes from the script. But Daniel Krause's novel is obviously a goldmine of like...

51:41Josh Brolin: Goldmine, yeah. You just call it. Yeah, I mean, like, Austin lines like, it's 17 years of being met gardener's son the expectations and disappointments all of it on his back one more time it's like those notes must have been exceptionally helpful certainly certainly i mean especially uh for jay because jay isn't uh he's not he's not the best with his expression you know which is i feel really important for the story i feel like he's um trying to find his voice but that's a big part of why him and his dad are missing the whole time, missing each other. So it was really helpful to have the book and to be able to have his kind of thoughts and have a deeper understanding of what he's going through.

52:27Not to say that you follow whatever it exactly or something, but it's nice to have that as a place to jump off from. The film deals obviously with extreme circumstances, and I think it's a spoiler to say that you spent much of the film inside a whale. Don't, don't, don't. What interested you more about the project, the survival story or the emotional reckoning underneath it all? I mean, all of it. All of it. It was a combination of the both of them. I mean, just this insane thing of make a movie about someone being inside of a whale and how the hell are you going to do that? and then adding this like really deep personal story about, you know, just like a father and son, which is really, it's, I mean, it is father and son in this movie, but for me, it translates, I feel like, to anyone.

53:20I don't know if you ever have that, do you ever, I don't know if you have that relationship with someone like in your life, in your family, where it feels like it's like you have such a deep love for them, but you're just not connecting, you know? It feels like there's kind of like... It was with my dad, who was definitely a man's man. X-Forces, firemen from another generation, one-time baby, taught me how to saw wood and change plugs. We were fine doing that kind of stuff. But I don't think men, certainly of my vintage, would think about exploring those emotional realms with their father. He would have just said, why are you asking me that?

53:55Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. because the expression was through the things that he passed down to me. Yeah, yeah. His knowledge, his emotions and the way he was in the world. Yeah. I think that's what this film is about really, isn't it? Inheritance of stuff. Yeah, definitely. I feel like, you know, inheritance of kind of the things that he struggles with, you know, and then how that then affects Jay, you know, And then he feels kind of stuck inside maybe his dad's idea of what he should be and feels trapped.

54:36Josh Brolin: Or rebellion of. You go the other direction. Yeah. And you resist everything. So it's also a movie about how to get out of your own way. Yeah. Where are you making it? Where are you poisoning your own cup? Do you know what I mean? And you go, there is something that's valuable here. But because you're so reactive, you're not seeing the value in something. And it's finding that balance. How am I getting in the way of expanding or growing or deepening an experience because of some cosmetic behavior that I can't get beyond? You know, which I've definitely experienced. All sides of it. Yeah, I'm sure.

55:21You described in your book acting as a borrowed life. Do you still feel that way?

55:28Josh Brolin: Borrowed life in that you're borrowing somebody else's life and you're filling it with the color of your own personal experiences. You know, people say, oh, do you lose yourself in a role? Which I think is foolish. You know, it's like you use your own experiences and you bring it to. It's like you have a hollow shell of this character, even in this. and you're like, what am I bringing to it? How do I fill it? You can't help but fill it. And that's, especially with this, so uncomfortable because I'm looking at my relationship with my son. I'm looking at my relationship with my father. You can't not do it.

56:11Josh Brolin: Otherwise, you're not doing your job. Otherwise, go be a plumber. Go, you know, not think about those things. Think about copper, PVC pipe, you know, Which I have total respect for, but it's like you don't have to do that. Why am I putting in this pipe? Who's going to poop differently? How do I help them get through that moment? You sound like you're enjoying your work more than you did in 2006, where you described...

56:44You said you had diarrhea on the set of No Country for Old Men, and you enjoyed that more than the acting. Has that changed?

56:52Josh Brolin: I put that in the book. Did I? Did I really? I think I did. Yeah, you went 12 times in a day and you thought it was 12 times. Yeah, I don't think it was 12 times. But that was a bit of exact, you know, when you write, you exaggerate a little bit. But yeah, I was sick that day. I remember it. I remember the little house. Somebody gave me a little house. I had a little house right in Santa Fe. It was really cool. I miss those times, man. I don't miss diarrhea so much, but I miss those times where you go like, you weren't making a lot of money and you're and not that i'm it's it's not about the money but it's small and we didn't think no country was necessarily going to be some film that was lauded as 20 years later that people are still talking about it was a cute little with a guy with a funky looking haircut that was you know what i mean you know and these little guys that made these funky little films and then you and then you've and then you finish and it comes out and And I feel that way about this movie.

57:48Josh Brolin: And I'm not paralleling it. I'm just saying that when I saw that, I felt the same way about weapons. You see a movie and you go, what? For real? Obviously, I have no vision because I didn't see it. I think this is a special movie, but not what I just experienced. When I saw weapons, it was like, wow. And I feel the same way about whale fall. But I did feel that way when I read this book. I really felt I mean you described it early on I mean I was sobbing at the end of this book and I wasn't sure exactly why which was even better Some things just speak to you don't they? Last question, a selfish question from me, a few years ago I took my two small children to the Oregon coast and we went to Astoria and Cannon Beach on a Goonies pilgrimage and we took them to the museum there where you can have them blissfully locked up for a few minutes in the jail oh really i didn't know that yeah yeah yeah that's funny i can show you some pictures is it is it talking about inheritance is it is it strange knowing that something you made as a teenager and it comes across in um in under the truck that you didn't really know like i mean spielberg was there and you knew it was kind of a fun film but yeah something that people are still talking about so affectionately 42 years later is that strange is that a strange feeling you've become part of other people's family histories.

59:11Josh Brolin: That's strange. It is strange. Is it strange? And then they bought, I don't know if it was the case when you went there. I don't think so. Cause I think it happened more recently where they bought that house and that house now looks exactly, they've transformed it back into exactly what it looked like when we did the film. You know what I mean? So the fact that it's like in the zeitgeist, it's like part of people and not only just with one generation, with several generations, now you know i don't like admitting it but it's the truth that i showed my kids the movie recently and i don't like that my kids they never really knew what i did until that moment you know they were like why does everybody keep coming up to you and saying hello i was like i'm just a super friendly guy you know and and then i showed them goonies recently they didn't necessarily know it was me but it's so fun watching it just has this enlightening yeah moment it's just golden pupils you know what I mean it's cool I know you have to leave you're getting all uncomfortable I'm getting a nod from an administrator right on thanks man alright thank you so much guys you too Austin Josh terrific film had a great time there thanks buddy thank you Josh Brolin and Austin Abrams talking to me about their new film Whale Fall it's quite disconcerting Mark when you're doing those interviews because I've attended dozens of them but until you're in the seat with the lights and a man there winding you up giving you five minutes and two minutes and one minute It's a real art.

1:00:39There's like a real performance element to it, which of course, Simon does extremely well. But it was all new to me. What do you think? Okay, so just to quickly recap what you just said. So Whalefall, Austin Abrams is a scuba driver, Jay, for Jonah, we imagine, who goes searching for the remains of his dad, played by Josh Brolin, who has jumped off a boat to his death in the opening act. As I said, it's not a sport. It happens at the beginning. The dad was ill, didn't want treatment. the sun has got these unresolved issues and while searching for the remains jay is swallowed by a sperm whale and then attempts to escape so it's an adaptation of a novel by daniel krauss which i haven't read you called it a gold mine so the novel is great yeah it's really good you have it there okay krauss also shares a screenwriting credit with director brian duffield who made that caitlin devour film no one will save you which i liked very much no one will save you was remarkable for the fact that it had five words of dialogue.

1:01:35There's also, I was put in mind of J.C. Chandler's All is Lost, which is Robert Redford shipwrecked at sea after his boat gets hit by a big crate that's floating in the sea. That had a whopping 51 words. This has more than either of those, although it's hardly dialogue heavy. It leans more into monologues, most of which are spoken through underwater breathing apparatus, which I have to say has a kind of Bane-style kind of... But it doesn't matter if you don't understand everything that's being said, because the thing is the path that is trod by the film is very generically familiar. So there is a, there's a survival movie format, which goes, someone trapped in a deadly situation is basically visited by the ghosts of the past.

1:02:22And through conversation with the ghosts of the past, sort of finds the way out of the current situation. So it requires the person to be externally trapped, unresolved in a conflict, near-death experience, and that causes them to find the resolution of the inner conflict that then allows them to escape the external conflict, and then they go back into the world, usually physically damaged, but spiritually enriched. So if you think about something like Danny Boy's 127 Hours, that is absolutely that format. The thing with this is, this does adhere to that format in very textbook fashion. Young man, unresolved father issues, swallowed by whale while looking for his father's remains, and while in the belly of the beast, revisits fights with his father during which he learns the lessons his father tried to teach him, and then uses those lessons to survive.

1:03:18Now, the first thing I did when I came out of the film was I did the, has anyone ever survived in the belly of a whale? And the internet tells me that no, that hasn't happened because there's no breathable air and the corrosive acids would break you down in five seconds. However, my friend and colleague Tim Robey said, yeah, but no astronaut has ever survived what Sandra Bullock survived in gravity. That doesn't mean it's not a good film. To which the answer is, yeah, fair point. Whether this is a good movie is a matter of debate, and it kind of depends on how you define good. my main question is this is it about a whale or is it about a father and a son and i think that unlike jaws you know i always said jaws is not about a shark and steven spielberg said it is about a shark okay unlike that this wants not to be about a whale it wants to be about a father and son but i think it's actually about a whale now you from that interview think it's about inheritance and stuff, to use the phrase which you so eloquently, it's about inheritance and stuff.

1:04:27I think it's about the mechanics of becoming whale food, for better or worse. I think we should discuss this because I think the stuff inside the belly of the beast is a strange mix of absurd and claustrophobic. On the one hand, there's the absurdity, which is that there's light everywhere because the plankton is lighting up, which is very convenient so you can actually see what's going on. But it's also, I just don't know whether I believe that any of this could actually happen. That's the absurdist stuff. On the other hand, I believe it well enough because I'm watching it on a big screen and I'm getting a complete claustrophobic panic attack because I need to get out of the belly of this whale because I am absolutely terrified about being trapped in confined spaces.

1:05:09And yes, during the course of the drama, the whale does become an embodiment of the dad. It becomes an embodiment of the unresolved issue, which has swallowed this young man and from which he must escape, incidentally, in a sort of slightly jawsy fashion. But I think that it is still about the whale. And I think that that's the problem with it for me, is that for me, it is a film about a boy who gets swallowed by a whale that has a bunch of father-son stuff in it that is probably in the novel and is probably more powerful in the novel. But when it comes to the film, it's about being whale food.

1:05:52Now, I would like to hear what you think. I think your mileage will vary. I think if you think about your dad a lot and things that he taught you, and if your dad has passed away relatively recently, as mine did, I found that part of the story quite emotionally resonant. There's definitely, I mean, he's not a, he wasn't Mick Gardner, but he certainly was from a similar generation. And I think that brought me quite close to that story. I agree. I think that the adaptation of the novel is not entirely successful and does not convey some of the emotional depths that you get from Daniel Krause's novel.

1:06:34He's a terrific writer, by the way. He wrote No Shape of Water. Yeah. And the book is, I found the book very emotionally resonant. And I agree with you on the inside the whale bits. The psychopath squid I thought was unintentionally comic. Is that in the book? And in the novel, it just dies quite quickly. Okay, fine. It doesn't keep coming back. It is not, no. It's not a kind of sequence of battles to the death inside the belly of the whale. So I thought that was not entirely successful. I think the sound design's good. The score is good. I think the Inside the Wales Belly actually was, in terms of the craft of it, was successful.

1:07:20I think Austin Abrams is a terrific actor and I think he's conveying Deep Panic, I think, was really good. Yeah, he is a good actor. But he is really good and I enjoyed it. I think I called it terrific at the end of the interview. I'm not sure. You did? On reflection. I think it's terrific. I think it's a good, solid film if you like, you know, scrungy, wet, claustrophobic environments and a bit of a by-the-numbers father and son story running alongside it. I think it's, you know, it's worth it if you like that kind of stuff. But it is, no matter what it may think it is, and no matter what the book may be, it is about being swallowed by a whale.

1:08:04Yeah, it is. the sperm whale, the father of the sea as it's known. For better or worse For better or for worse Alright, well, that was Whale Fall that's out on Friday and it's rated 15 for strong threat, injury detail and an extremely violent squid So it's time now Mark to have a whale of a time in the laughter lift

1:08:31Right, four jokes in here by the way Mark, see if you can spot the listener one Are you ready? I thought you were going to say to see if you can spot the jokes. Okay. Oh, hey, Mark. Hey, son. What's the difference between a roll of Andrex and a pair of curtains? Um, I don't know. What's the difference between a roll of Andrex? I knew it was you, dirty boy. Oh, I see. Oh, hey, Mark. I saw my doctor yesterday as I had a nasty little rash on my posterior, so I showed it to him, but he completely ignored me and kept scanning his shopping through the self-checkout.

1:09:05Sorry, run that one by me again. I saw my doctor yesterday as I had a nasty little rash on my posterior, so I showed it to him, but he completely ignored me and kept scanning his shopping through the self-checkout. Right, OK, fine, there we go, yes. And you've actually brought along your own laughing. Well done. Oh, hey, Mark. Digger's been inspiring a lot of discourse this week and last. It stars Tom Cruise, of course. I'll tell you what I know about Tom Cruise. Very little.

1:09:34OK. Come on, not bad. Is that the listener joke? Oh, hey, Mark. Not sure if you knew this about me, but inspired by my love of the game Street Fighter, I recently started a karate dojo in my hometown called Pool Contact Karate. Initially, I hired four teachers, but the demand was so high that I had to hire a fifth, Mark. Even then, I had too many students signing up, so I asked them to put in extra hours. Now I've got one, two, three, four, five. Sensei's working overtime.

1:10:08was that the listener email no the listener email was it was it that one it was okay i thought it was that was ktane jones sent that in okay well done that was the ringer very good come on they're good everyone in the studio loved it didn't you guys give me another little chuckle yeah they're doing double thumbs up mark Well, I've never heard it called that before. All right, still to come, Mark's review of Street Fighter and some what's-ons. We'll be back in a minute.

1:10:57brings a plus one. We'll see how extendable this extendable table really is. And extra chairs are on the way. Okay. What if there's a blizzard and everyone has to sleep over? Ready to go with extra bedding and towels. From guest-ready essentials to holiday decor you can trust, Wayfair delivers.

1:11:16Josh Brolin: Real value shows up in reliability you don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all-season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence-inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride no matter the road season after season firestone all season tires for durability you can count on just like people count on you firestone always dependable since 1900

1:11:51all right welcome back everybody i tell you what all of that stuff that you've just heard about definitely go and buy it and or make use of it if it's a service what do you think yes uh i i i endorse these messages whatever they were so street fighter is out this week mark there have been other iterations of this tell us about the new shiny street fighter movie yes well i should start by saying i have never played the game of street fighter but you have you're a bit of an aficionado. This is, I believe, the third live action feature length Street Fighter film. So originally, the Felipe brothers were going to do this, and then they went off to do Bring Her Back instead.

1:12:33So it went instead to Kato Sekurai, who is best known for collaborations with Eric Andre and maker of that film, Bad Trip. So the plot, if we can call it that, opens in the, is it 93? Estrange fighters, Ryu and Ken Masters, are recruited to enter the World Warrior Tournament, but the tournament is going to bring a whole bunch of elements together in which they'll all have to face their demons or something. The point is, it's not plot heavy. I think that's fair to say. Plot is not the biggest part of all this. What it is, is it's big, noisy, shouty, punchy. And for me, it comes from... I mean, bear in mind, because I don't play video games.

1:13:27So I'm thinking like when I was a kid, on Saturday afternoon, you used to watch World of Sport, right? And they had a wrestling thing on World of Sport in which you'd have wrestlers in like masks. And there was one guy called The Exorcist and there was another guy called Giant Haystack. He didn't wear a mask, but he wore a costume. And they would hit each other for like half an hour, while little old ladies with handbags would sit in the front row and shout at them. And then if you fast forward a few years, we get to things like Night of the Bloody Apes, which was a video nasty thing, which was a Mexican wrestling movie, which is people in costumes hitting each other, but just with a kind of video nasty trapping around it.

1:14:05And then fast forward to this, in which there's a dazzling assortment of international fighters in mask and a ton of CGI effects hitting each other for two hours. While old fart film critics like me sit there watching it and trying to think of a new and interesting way of saying that video games don't really translate to the big screen, but at least this is better than the one that had Jean-Claude Van Damme and Kylie Minogue. And the one after that, which was ranked 44th in Rotten Tomatoes, 100 worst films reviewed of the 2000s. I mean, this is better than that, but that is a low bar. Here's a clip.

1:14:49Josh Brolin: I've got good news, y 'all. Gathered here are the world's best fighters. I won't deny I'm a street fighter. But only one of which will be crowned, the world champion of street fighters!

1:15:06You win! Perfect.

1:15:10Josh Brolin: You're not a warrior anymore, you're a sideshow. What's up MTV? I'm Ken Masters. This is your shot at redemption.

1:15:23Josh Brolin: Who are you gonna show?

1:15:28The path I'm on now is not the one of combat. Maybe it's Ken's turn to be champion. or maybe not so essentially it's an 84 minute squeezed into just over two hours it looks like a live action version of a kind of comic strip manga feels like a very extended pop video with banging music smashy bashy punchy action and jokes lots of jokes only some of which land now to be fair in the screening that i was in there was a few people who were laughing a lot at the jokes they were laughing at the camp humor and they were generally being sort of swept along by the kind of garishly coloured action of it all.

1:16:03I wasn't one of them. Because despite all the kind of kinetic set piece stuff and everything being cranked up to Eleventy Stupid, the problem for me is I never knew or cared about or got involved in the story or the characters and therefore never felt any pain and therefore no gain. I mean, yes, there is some swishy fight choreography. There is much flashy, bashy direction in the style of somebody like McG. and you really you couldn't accuse the film of not trying really hard to be distracting but i mean in terms of narrative development it makes the masters of the universe film look like citizen cane um it it will almost certainly find an audience and i'm not one of them and more than once i found myself kind of drifting in and out of it and just think just losing track of which fight sequence was was going to the next one because the thing is all the fight sequences seem strangely inconsequential, which I suppose is due to the fact that it comes from a video game in which all the fight sequences are essentially inconsequential.

1:17:05The other thing that's weird is that all the bits that visually echoed the video game, and there were certain sections in which the camera will pan along, like you can imagine it on a video console and the action moving and you're going through certain levels. All it did really was remind me that cinema is not the best place for interactive video narratives to play out. I mean, every now and then people get it right. I think Resident Evil does a pretty good job of getting it right. I didn't enjoy this. I think it is the best version of this that we've seen. And I'm absolutely aware that there will be people who like the original, like you, for example, who may well really enjoy that part of it as as a film it pretty much left me cold but it wouldn't surprise me if it finds its audience i'll probably go and see it yeah but then is that is that the problem because older fans who are familiar with the ip traditionally are much harder to get into cinemas they're quite happy to sort of wait for streaming so i don't know i don't know it's weird isn't it this way the studios pick their ip and all this the money they they put behind it yeah And I don't know how much affection there is anymore for Street Fighter.

1:18:18I just don't know, because I'm not that audience. I know, I mean, I'm sure you're a fan of the game, that the previous incarnations on screen, the live action incarnations, have not been good, right? No, they're all rubbish. Rubbish, fine. And this is probably, you know, the top of that pile. But as I said, that is a very, very low bar to pass. yeah I the ticket tracking for it pre-sales running about half of what Mortal Kombat 2 sold at the exact same point prior to release so you know so maybe maybe interest has just simply dried up yeah yeah I do remember watching World of Sport on a Saturday afternoon with my grandparents the wrestling then sounds like it was infinitely more entertaining in this film yeah Cat Weasel he was another one I do remember there was literally a character called the Exorcist and the funny thing about it was Kendo Nagasaki but the Exorcist seemed to have fundamentally misunderstood who the Exorcist was because the Exorcist wrestler was the baddie there was quite a transgressive wrestler called Adrian Street he used to wear sort of glam rock androgynous costumes and giant haystacks would always just come on and just plough everyone down.

1:19:41What was his real name? Nick McManus. Giant Haystacks, I can't remember. Big Daddy was Shirley Crabtree. That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you got Rollable Rocco. Rollable Rocco. He was another one. Davey Boy Smith.

1:19:57Those were the days. Those were the days. Before we finish, we've got four Mark IV Watsons. Excellent. So, first of all, there's a special screening of one of your favourites. hi Simon and Mark it's Ryan here from the team at Earth in Dalston on Sunday 18th of October we're screening one of Mark's favourite films of last year Rose of Nevada with a live score performed by the Cornish sound unit featuring the films director Mark Jenkin and his collaborator Dion Starr tickets are available via the Earth website and Dice and you can also visit the BFI website for details of further screenings elsewhere throughout October and as always we'll put a link to where you can get your tickets.

1:20:40That will be fabulous because Rosa Nevala with the live score is really, really terrific. Yeah, it does sound special. And here's Ian Whelan. Hello, Mark and Simon. I'm here to tell you about the extraordinary production of the Grand Central Cinema Club, Lights, Camera, Mayhem. A joint production between Mangleford Features and Arclight Theatre Company. It's based on Alan Nolan's best-selling book. Yes, it's a play, but it's also a cinema-adjacent musical theatrical extravaganza. It's fun for kids of all ages, even older balding ones like me. Let me set the scene. Dublin 1937, the golden age of the silver screen.

1:21:19Movie loving kids, the Grand Central Cinema Club are asked to hide Hollywood Princess Dottie Bright because this pampered princess of a child movie star is in danger of being kidnapped by the Chicago Mob. It runs for four shows only at Dublin's amazing Civic Theatre on the 17th and 18th of October 2026. And the good news is, all the tickets are free. But of course, booking is essential. For more details, visit the Redline Festival website or get your tickets from civictheatre.ie

1:22:03I mean, 10 out of 10. That's fantastic. Well, by the way, you've got to see it. If you're listening to this, head to our YouTube channel and have a little look. That is 10 out of 10. That's the best we've ever had. Can you top that? Correspondence at kermitomeo.com. Here's a message from the Bath Film Festival. Our 36th annual festival kicks off on Friday, October 16th, with a screening of Martin McDonagh's new film, Wild Horse 9. We've also got exciting premieres, Olivia Colman in Wicker, Paul Giamatti and Julianne Moore in the debut. We've got Cannes prize winners like Fjord, Fatherland and Minotaur.

1:22:40And one thing we're really proud of at the Bath Film Festival is that it is F-rated. That means that 50 % of the films are directed by women. Total of 40 films, loads of exciting events, and you'll find all the details at Film Bath. www.hackson.org.uk Fantastic. Sounds good, that, doesn't it? Very good. Wicca, the debut. Very good. Might head down there myself. I hope they're coming on December the 6th, if they're in Bath. Oh, yes, so they can roll onto the show. They can, exactly, yeah. And finally, some Dutch horror. Harlem. No, not that one. The original Dutch one is having its very first horror film festival beginning the 19th of October.

1:23:23It runs all week across the city. Screenings include Haxon, Friday the 13th. hello to Jason the Rocky Horror Picture Show Wes Craven's Scream and even the second greatest film ever made The Exorcist Tickets are on sale via the website harlemhorrorfilmfestival.nl That's Harlem with two A's by the way the Dutch way Just in case Mark is wondering what the greatest film ever made is the correct answer is Badlands Mark It's Terence Malick's Badlands It's a good call It's a very good call It's a good call It's not bad I think we've reached our quota of Exorcist mentions in this week's show So thanks everyone who sent those videos in.

1:23:59If you want us to publicise your screening or your special event, send us a video to correspondence at kermodeandmayo.com. That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Dom, Eric, Josh, Heather and Avi. The redactor was Simon Poole. In take two, we're directing you to the Overflow car park of love for more chat about current film releases, giving you some film suggestions. This week's film, this is about usurpers. Films about usurpers. not quite sure how that got through Mark, what's your film of the week? Well it's a funny week, it's not a great week but I would say in the week that it's not a great week Forgotten Island probably Next week Mark will be reviewing Clayface, Ali G Who Is I, I will Fatherland, I've got the t-shirt look Girls on Top sent me a freebie, my first freebie Sandra Huller, well done 15 years, my first freebie Fatherland, Making Marry Antoinette, Clara and the Sun and Tad and the Magic Lamp and All Rivers spill their stories to the sea.

1:24:54It's a packed show. And to be a busy boy. That's eight reviews, Mark. An Octo-take. It's crazy. You can't possibly watch it. It's crazy. We're going to have to have a discussion, I think. Yep. That's it from me, and that's it from Mark.

1:25:23how sturdy it is. But what if everyone's plus one brings a plus one? We'll see how extendable this extendable table really is. And extra chairs are on the way. Okay. What if there's a blizzard and everyone has to sleep over? Ready to go with extra bedding and towels. From guest-ready essentials to holiday decor you can trust, Wayfair delivers.