Is Ebenezer Good?

0:00Simon, we need to talk about Christmas.

0:01Simon Mayo: No, we don't. Please. Well, the Kermode Mayo online store does. Black Friday's nearly here. Christmas is coming. We need to know what we've got in stock. I know what we've got in stock. Do you? Yes, things with our names on. Although in fairness, it may surprise you that I'm not actually in charge of it. That's a relief. The people who are in charge use Shopify, which is probably why the whole thing works. And the Shopify mobile app means the top production team can manage things like inventory, customer support and payments wherever they are. Shopify makes it easy to launch a store and start selling without needing to be an e-commerce expert.

0:35Simon Mayo: And if you're thinking of starting a business, now's a pretty good time to get it up and running before Black Friday when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to shopify.co.uk slash take to start your free trial. Go to shopify.co.uk slash take today to hear your first... Now at McDonald's, the new frosted cranberry splash with Sprite. Because there's no better time of year for friends, family, Sprite, cold foam and sprinkles. Now at McDonald's. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday.

1:18Simon Mayo: Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best you can in Questions Shmestians. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non-fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you.

1:58Simon Mayo: just be a minute mark you're reading notice number six and that looks like a pre-release copy of your latest book is that right oh sorry you're just completely engrossed in it it's it's quite compelling is it is that is that one of the the pre-release copies or is that yeah it is it's the one that i have to read fanatically to make sure there aren't any errors but there are oh anyway so they need to give us a quick thumbnail of the book what's it what's it about i don't want to i don't want to do that oh uh okay it's a cat and mouse story second mouse yeah it has like tom and jerry it's like it's a tom and jerry story inspired by the english civil war but set in 2026 Okay, fantastic.

2:50Simon Mayo: There we go. You see, you could do it. I'll unveil it in sentence form week by week between now and March the 11th. Anyway, how are you? You're looking tip-top. I am. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I feel like what I should... I can see no writing. Is there no writing on that shirt? It's a blank T-shirt. What's wrong with you? Yeah, well, it's clean and it came out of the wash and I picked it up and I just, oh, well, you know, maybe I'll just rock it. On the internet, people are going to take that blank T-shirt and write their own slogan on it. Like they do with the Donald Trump signing a thing.

3:24Simon Mayo: Very dodgy. Anyway, so write your own T-shirt slogan for Mark. Yeah, it would be very good. I'm nearly finished with... Oh, actually, I'll bring this up later on. When we've got the, you know, one last thing, because we're going to do a live... That's a live show which went out... Oh, yeah, but we haven't done it yet. I know we haven't done it yet. The timey-wimey thing, yeah. I've got a very good book that I'm going to tell you about, which isn't your book, but I haven't read your book yet because it's not out because you're just doing the subs on it. We should point out that just before we came on air, we had a very interesting discussion about 70s softcore movies like Confessions of a Window Cleaner.

4:01Which you appeared to be an expert in. Well, it was because of the fact that somebody had written underneath the review. There was a review of something in which I had mentioned Pasolini's Canterbury Tales and I had mentioned Robin Asquith. and somebody had said Robin Asquith was never in a Pasolini film no he was he was I mean yes he was in all those other things as well he was in all those confessions of a pop performer and you know whoops no trousers and all that stuff but of course Heather who works on the show is much too young to know anything about that and she was saying what on earth is all this and we were explaining that in the 1970s this is what passed for erotica basically some bloke climbing up a window and going, oh, and then falling in through the window and then having a pillow fight.

4:48Simon Mayo: It was a more innocent time. It was. I think the closest we got to it in our house was, you know, play for today or something like that, which my parents would always switch off because it contained fruitiness. Did you watch Bokeh of Barbed Wire? I mean, not at the time, I don't think. That was pretty twisted. Anyway. Moving on. Here we are with another tip-top show. And our first reference to Christmas will be in this show, I think. But anyway, Mark will be reviewing these films. Yeah, very exciting week. We have How to Rob a Bank, which is a sort of comedic action heist movie. We have Fjord, which I'll tell you more about, but I just like saying the word Fjord.

5:35And Ebenezer, this is the Christmas sparkle that you're bringing to the show. With our very, very special guest. is Rupert Grint, him off the Harry Potter films.

5:45Simon Mayo: And you appeared to interview him in a Christmas grotto. I know. We were surrounded by... Christmas. You were surrounded by Christmas is what you were surrounded by. In a very large room. But it was most entertaining. So Rupert Grint, who's never been on the show before. I'm so surprised. Which seems odd, but then you think they didn't offer any of the kids for the Harry Potter films. Right. and he hasn't really he hasn't been like the front guy for any movie he's he's done stuff with M. Night and someone on the television yeah but anyway so anyway you'll hear more with Rupert Grint in this show and in take two Mark what's going on there in take two we have now I say prima facie but would you say prima facie or prima facie I think I'd say these are words I haven't said out loud before, but I think I'd say prima facie, but who knows what the Romans said.

6:40Okay. You say prima, I say prima. I say prima, you say prima. Let's call the whole thing off. And also, there is an anniversary reissue of Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette, or Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette, or Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette, depending on how you feel.

6:56Simon Mayo: You can get Take Two ad-free, along with all the other exclusive stuff, by heading to our Patreon page. Just search come to my Patreon and you'll find us there. But we begin this week's pod by talking about another pod. Okay. Which is slightly odd. We've had an email from an Italian film writer, Violetta Bellocchio. Violetta Bellocchio. I think that's right. Would you say that? That sounds right to me. Pointing us to her Italian podcast, which is called Limbo, So here is a clip from an episode called, and so the episode is entitled, Perche Mark Kermode, Non a Più Arrabiato. Anyway, here's the clip.

7:43Simon Mayo: La stringa di ricerca Mark Kermode Rents. Rents è una parola che dovrebbe essere familiare a tutti voi. Rovigo, Ancona, Napoli, Torino. Rent, quel genere di rent Sfogo, incazzatura, invettiva Violetta Bellocchio there With the episode Why is Mark Kermode no longer angry? That's what it means Is that what it means? And here's the thing For all the people who get Mark's name wrong Violetta got it right Got it right And she's not even English Yeah, no, God bless her Do you know what she was saying? She's saying something like, the search string is Mark Kermode rants. Rant is a word that should be familiar to all of you.

8:37Simon Mayo: Ravigo, Ancona, Naples, Turin. A rant, that kind of rant. A vent, a blow up, a tirade. Anyway, so the fact that you, I mean, you do rant occasionally, but the fact that you rant less has been noted in Italy by the Italian film writer Violetta Bellocchio. Well, I'm just nothing but flattered. But the point also for Violetta Bellocchio and anyone else is that, of course, occasionally a movie comes along, like Melania, where there is a potential for rantiness, but you rant less, do you not? Yeah, I do. I blame that on your therapist, to be honest. Who's German. yeah well i'm still a therapist and still i'm not saying that makes a not a therapist i'm just saying we're sort of doing a little trip around the world at the moment aren't we correspondence at codamad.com tell us about a movie that's on and out how to rob a bank which is a sort of comedic heist film written by mark bianculli bianculli bianculli and directed by david leech now you'll remember david leech's name because he was the stunt performer coordinator who was an uncredited co-director on John Wick, along with Chad Stahelski.

9:52Didn't you interview Chad Stahelski? Am I right in saying that? Or did you, was it Keanu that you interviewed? That sounds about right. I think that's right. Then went on to do Atomic Blonde, Deadpool 2, Bullet Train, and The Fall Guy. I liked The Fall Guy, although The Fall Guy fell, sadly. So this stars Nicholas Holt, who recently became one of an increasing number of people alongside R. Pat, who are now being named in the possible Bond casting. And maybe by the time this has gone out, I mean, I thought we'd put all this to bed, but no, more hats keep getting thrown into the ring. Zoe Kravitz, who did such a great job directing Blink twice recently and was very, very funny in the studio.

10:30That episode of the studio with her in it is just fantastic. John C. Reilly, Christian Slater, and, and it is an and, Pete Davidson. So Nicholas Holt is Ryan, who is the leader of this gang of masked bank robbers who film all their activities in a TikTok style and put them online as instructional videos on how to rob a bank. Like the heroes of Alias, Smith & Jones, which again is a very 70s reference, which Heather won't understand, I'm sorry. These latter-day Robin Hoods became very popular. You remember how that goes with everyone, with the railroads and the banks? They're sort of essentially raising a social media era finger to the establishment, encouraging their followers to overthrow capitalism and the rich parasite fat cats by stealing from the poor and redistributing, stealing from the rich and redistributing from the poor to the rich.

11:21That's the wrong way around. Stealing from the poor, I think that's already been done. To the rich. That's actually a Monty Python song. There is one of those. So John C. Reilly is the FBI agent whose department is being made to look foolish by these bank robbers doing all their stuff so publicly. Zoe Kravitz is the under house arrest hacker who invented a piece of software called, I think it's FIPOS, which stands for F-U piece of M, which caused a judge's home to be doxxed. It's a way of tracking stuff on the internet. And she's at home eating Cheetos when John C. Reilly offers her a pardon if she helps him track down these big bad walls.

11:58Here's a clip. You know, I've been doing this for 30 years and I've never come across a group of people

12:06Simon Mayo: as ballsy as this. Why are they posting it on social media? There's 15 banks now. They must have a pretty big pile of money. Why are they taking these risks? Maybe it's not about the money. What about bank robberies not about the money? My point is maybe they're making a point. What point are they making? That the system's corrupt and everything's broken? No, boo-hoo. Now, the film kind of owes a tonal debt somewhat to point break, which is a film that is actually raised directly in the dialogue. And both of them say it's a movie that they love and they wish they could be in. And this is no point break, but it's not bullet train either, which is a good thing.

12:49It's a kind of goofy, likeable nonsense. It has pretensions of being about something more. I mean, there's a kind of, there's a backstory about what motivates them and where all this, you know, anarchic stuff comes from and whether anarchy means overthrowing all order. None of that is very important, but there is more than enough flippant fun stuff for it not to be boring. I mean, I think objectively it is utterly disposable. The characters are two dimensional. They're most three dimensional when they're wearing Halloween wolf masks and making how to YouTube videos, which tells you something about the depth of the characterization.

13:25it lifts some of its riffs from Joker I mean all that stuff about you know anarchic anti-heroes who just want to watch the world burn but honestly compared to this Joker looks like like a crime and punishment style deconstruction of villainous urges or of you know like a das capital about late stage capitalism honestly I never really believed in any of the characters in How to Rob a Bank particularly when they were doing their sort of big backstory reveals and explaining how they got to where they were. I mean, there's one weird thing, which is that Zoe Kravitz's character has clearly been told that she's hungry.

14:01And I mean, hungry in a, not just a hungry sense, but hungry. And, but consequently, somebody said, I know it's a great thing would be if you're eating in every single scene, which is kind of fine at the first, but it's like, okay, I've got it now. We just put that little thing aside. But as a piece of sort of throw away Friday night popcorn, pulp fiction, and again, it isn't Pulp Fiction. It's the, you know, the phrase we always use, it goes down well with a cup of tea and a biscuit. This goes down well with a fizzy pop and a bucket of something noisy. One interesting thing about it was, I saw it at Sony and in the middle of the screening, an alarm went off in the screening room and they had to evacuate the building.

14:44But the alarm went off during one of the heist sequences. And the heist sequence is going and there's all this stuff happening and there's all this kind of flashy, flashy. And suddenly this red flashing light starts flashing overhead and this alarm starts ringing and this voice, which I can't quite hear, is going, leave the building. And I thought it was part of the film. I thought, wow, this is real 4DX stuff they've got in this screening room. It went on for about three minutes before any of us realised we were actually being told to leave the building. So then we all went down, then we all stood up, and we all came back up, 11 flights of stairs incidentally because you can't use the lift because you've been to Sony.

15:17It's very high up. And kicked straight back into the movie and it worked. So it is disposable, but it is functional disposable.

15:25Simon Mayo: Did you have any idea how to rob a bank afterwards? Well, I think the general thing is probably don't. Yeah, I know. But if you wanted to, it does tell you what to do, does it? Yeah, it tells you what to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but not in any way that anybody in the real world could imitate, because, you know, it's like it's a cartoon. It's like it's not. okay is it its connection with reality is at very best minimal okay so uh that's how to rob a bank still to come um after the break we got the box office top 10 the laughter lift mark reviews fjord and ebenezer good ebenezer good or is it that's the question uh so the chat with rupert grint is on the way.

16:13Hello, I'm Mark Kermode. I'm Simon Mayo. Simon, do you ever Google yourself?

16:19Simon Mayo: No, I know who I am. Yeah, very good. But if I did, I would obviously learn about my highly anticipated new novel called Notice Number Six. Very good. Nice plug. The point I'm trying to make is that the internet knows who you are too. Your address, phone number, and all sorts of personal information can end up online because data brokers collect and sell information about us. That's where your spam calls and scam emails come from. Which explains a lot about my inbox. Exactly. And this is where Incogni comes in. Incogni helps remove your personal information from the internet by contacting data brokers on your behalf.

16:54Their removal engine automatically sends removal requests to over 420 data broker sites. And it doesn't just do it once. It keeps going back because these brokers recollect your data even after they've deleted it. It can't remove the take, can it? So nothing can remove the take. But with Incogni Unlimited, their exposure scanner can find where else your information is showing up online. And if you find something you want removed, Custom Removals lets you submit the link and Incogni handles the process for you.

17:23Simon Mayo: And our listeners can get 60 % off Incogni with the take. Just go to incogni.com slash take and use the code take at checkout. Holiday drinks are now at McDonald's. Like the new Red Bull Frosted Cranberry Energizer, it's Red Bull meets cranberry flavours, topped with cold foam and sprinkles, made to charge your holiday spirit. Now at McDonald's.

17:54Simon Mayo: OK, so it's the box office top 10, starting at number 10, which is La Bola Negra. Which I really liked. I thought was, you know, I mean, I didn't think it was quite the masterpiece that some people have thought it was. I think there are some problems in the later stages, but I think it is certainly one of the most interesting films of the year. And I know enough people who love it and really love it to know that it's working with a very big section of the audience. New entry number nine, I Play Rocky. I thought it was terrific fun. I mean, it's very cheesy and it's very on the nose, but it does the job.

18:30And I did spend the last 10 minutes of it in tears. And because the whole thing about the story of Sylvester Stallone refusing to not play Rocky is one of the great underdog stories. And since Rocky is an underdog story itself, it works really well. I thought it was really surprisingly entertaining.

18:50Simon Mayo: Brian Matthew, but not the deceased Radio 2 presenter, says, Mark and Simon, I feel like I've been waiting 50 years for I Play Rocky. As a former organiser of the UK Rocky Fan Club, I was delighted to see it on a double bill with the original Rocky at my local everyman. Great. While there are a few historical liberties, they are minor. The composite executive character played by Tracey Letts works particularly well, capturing the disbelief surrounding the film's unlikely journey to production. the story largely stays true to events although it overlooks stallone's stated influences especially marty and on the waterfront and his desire to move away from the anti-hero films of the era like rocky itself i play rocky leaves you feeling uplifted anthony ipolito is superb as stallone capturing both his mannerisms and determination and anna sophia robb shines as sasha whose support was crucial to his success the film is funny well-paced and affectionate without becoming sentimental most importantly it understands the central truth about rocky it was never really about boxing it was about redemption self-worth and proving you can go the distance both films capture that beautifully uh brian thank you very much yeah no i completely agree with that completely agree with that email it's number nine number eight is number seven in america is clay face i really liked it i thought it was closer to being a brian using a society style film than superhero movie.

20:15I liked it. It had a great central performance and I like just how physical the effects are.

20:21Simon Mayo: UK number seven is Ghosts, The Possession of Button House. Has this opened anywhere in the US yet? Well, it's nowhere in the charts. Okay, fine. Because somebody did write in and say that there is a US version of the TV show, which you and I didn't know about. I mean, I wasn't even familiar with the British TV show, as neither were you. But the movie does clearly work with that audience and it doesn't make any concessions to it's just like keep up you know we're not going to explain any backstory we're assuming that you're on board already and three weeks in the top 10 so yeah very good number six here 33 over there prime time i really like prime time the more i think about prime time the more i like it a couple of people have said that the less you know about the true story the more you will enjoy the film and the more you know about the true story the less you will enjoy the film.

21:09I knew nothing about the true story and I really enjoyed the film and I liked Robert Pattinson's performance very much. And I also liked the style of the filmmaking, which kind of felt absolutely of a piece with the overcooked subject matter.

21:25Simon Mayo: Number five is George Michael, The Faith Tour, which is a concert film. Yeah, it's George Michael, The Faith Tour. It does exactly what that says. Wicker is at number four, number nine in America. An incredibly strange movie. I enjoyed it very much. And I've had quite a few conversations with people who have been to see it going, and have come out going, that film is absolutely mad, but I really, really liked it. I think Olivia Colman is terrific in it. And it really shouldn't work. As I said, somebody described it to me as being a film about a woman who dislikes men so much that she marries a basket, which is not what it's about, but it is still quite funny.

22:02Simon Mayo: More on Wicker in the overflow car park in take two. The American number one is number three here, which is Godzilla Minus Zero. Nathan Gatton says, massive Godzilla fan. Watched the special IMAX screening of Godzilla Minus Zero on November the 3rd with a wonderful crowd. Loved it. I admit, as a Godzilla fan, it's a bit lopsided and lacking in places, but as a blockbuster film in 2026, it's a monumental triumph. To see a popcorn epic treat the audience as mature adults is special, in which the emotional rollercoaster of the human characters is just as gripping as the monsters bashing each other.

22:38Simon Mayo: And yes, it's rated R, but teenagers should see that. Does that mean it's a 15? Anyway, I'll carry on while you're looking it up. And yes, it's rated R, but teenagers should see this. 15 for strong injury detail. It's lessons about the horrors of war and how everyday humans are taken advantage of for the purpose of destruction are important conversations indeed. Godzilla Minus Zero is number three. I mean, I really enjoyed it. As I said, I watched it with my good friend, Rory, who's a big fan of this stuff. And we had a discussion afterwards about what we liked and what we didn't like. And Rory said, I think he's right, that by nature of the story, you lose the purity of the original analogy.

23:18But I think it handles that very well. I think it's surprising how much, despite everything that's going on on screen, you do manage to always be thinking of it as a story about the kind of aftermath of the nuclear tests, of the nuclear bombs, of a society being trashed. Incidentally, a couple of people below the line on the YouTube version of the review were complaining about spoilers. If things are in the trailer, kids, they're not spoilers, all right? Get over yourself. Mark. I know, don't go, never go below the line. Time is precious. Never go below the line. Why, why, why? Why? Because I feel somebody needs to keep an eye on this stuff.

24:04Simon Mayo: They don't. Number two here, eight over there. Steve says, this is Wild Horse 9, a new entry at number two. Long-term listener, fourth-time emailer. I was read out once at the old place. On Saturday, I took myself off to the cinema for a double bill of Wild Horse 9 and Prime Time. Coming out of Wild Horse 9, I felt a little underwhelmed. Having loved Martin McDonagh's films, I had very high expectations and went in knowing nothing about the film. I did laugh out loud several times and the still got it line was a real punch, but I just wasn't sure about the film, its tone and overall what I really took from it.

24:39Simon Mayo: However, today being Sunday, and I have realized that I cannot stop thinking about it. The slow nature of the film and the way that it addresses grief keeps playing over in my mind. The performances were understated. And whenever I think of the two characters, they loom larger and larger. Their professional relationship and friendship was so evolved and rang completely true. I know that come tomorrow, I will continue to dwell on this. Wonderful film now, I think, and I will be recommending it to everybody after listening to the interview with Martin McDonough and Mark's review. I need to go back and rewatch the film knowing the full story arc and the journey to Arkansas I am sure will benefit the film even further thanks for the show steve and hello to jason uh that's wild horse nine at number two well i think both you and i are big fans of wild horse nine i have thought about it a lot i love the fact that you cited the still got it line because that line in a way encapsulates everything about the film about the darkness and the light because it's such a dark joke particularly in the context of the narrative and in the context of history but it's also laugh out loud funny and um i've talked to a lot of people about this i think that the the malkovich oscar nomination is definitely on the way i really really sam rockwell ought to get a nomination for for what he does to support that that performance oh yeah no i'm i'm i'm a big fan of it it is very very funny it is laugh out loud funny or pretty much all the way through which for a film that is about grief and guilt and martin mcdonough said you know when he was talking to you that that it is a political film it is absolutely about the the the terrible stuff that they're involved in it is still laugh out loud funny and gay cheese being addressed um there is a i think this is in take two there's another email about wild horse nine which is a definite spoiler um because it it says that they've worked out precisely why it's called wild horse nine and that Martin was being disingenuous in the...

26:42Simon Mayo: When he said he didn't know. That's interesting. The line that really sticks with me from Wallace is, what are we now, hippies? He says hippies.

26:55Simon Mayo: If you've seen the film, that makes sense. Otherwise it doesn't. Number one here, number four over there is Ramayana, Rise of a Legend. Ross says, I was surprised Mark felt the film needed an intermission as the screening I attended had one in my experience Odeon and Cineworld usually include intervals for Indian films while showcase and omniplex often don't as for the film itself I thoroughly enjoyed it despite some pacing issues and uneven VFX the score was excellent and Yush was outstanding as Ravana particularly in one standout scene that I won't spoil I wouldn't recommend it as a first Bollywood film as there are better entry points if you do see it in cinemas avoid the english dub it's about 30 minutes shorter because the songs have been removed and the ai adjusted lip syncing is distracting and ultimately undermines the film up with the usual and down with the rest uh from ross yeah well i'm glad to hear it did have an intermission when you saw when in the preview screening that i saw it didn't i did see it in the original language version in the 167 minute version originally they had said that they were going to press screen the english language version which is the shorter version and then they didn't and we were very very delighted that they didn't incidentally if if anyone missed my review of Romiano Rise of a Legend it's it was in take two last week and um it's I think it's terrific that it's gone in at number one I mean that is that is really really good and I'm really really glad that it was press screened and we were able to cover it because yes there are things wrong with it it is flawed my own feeling was that it did it felt like one and a half films.

28:31And I was interested to find out that originally they had talked about doing it as a trilogy and then put it just as a two-parter. Oh, apparently it is, that review is also on YouTube now. Thank you, Simon Paul, the great redactor, for just flagging that up. Because, I mean, there are flaws to it. It certainly isn't, you know, the greatest of those movies. But it was really terrific that it was properly press screened and really great that it's gone in at number one. Good for it.

28:57Simon Mayo: Correspondence at kevinamere.com. Ross, thank you very much indeed. Need more unmissable discussion of current movies in take two. And we'll be back after these charming and beguiling missives, unless you're a subscriber, in which case we just move on.

29:12Simon Mayo: Holiday drinks are now at McDonald's. Like the new Red Bull Frosted Cranberry Energizer, it's Red Bull meets cranberry flavours, topped with cold foam and sprinkles, made to charge your holiday spirit. Now at McDonald's. Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you?

29:52Simon Mayo: Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

30:03Simon Mayo: so our guest is Rupert Grint the actor still best known for playing Ron Weasley across all eight of the Harry Potter films a role he was cast for at the age of 11 and I think the spirit of him is with us still since the series ended his work has included film television and Theatre, recent major roles, Psychological Horror's Servant on Apple TV. It's an M. Night Shyamalan project. And Knock at the Cabin, another M. Night Shyamalan psychological horror thriller. We'll talk about that and all the other business associated with Ebenezer. You'll hear my chat with Rupert after this clip. Merry Christmas, sir.

30:43Simon Mayo: Merry Christmas, Uncle Ebenezer. You don't mean that. Oh, I do. Tomorrow is Christmas, sir. Christmas is for children.

30:59Simon Mayo: Merry Christmas. How you can continue to make excuses for that man and endure such rejection, I will never understand. Merry Christmas! Bombard! And a Happy New Year! Come back! Ebenezer.

31:16Simon Mayo: Who are you? You will be haunted by three spirits. I turn them on. That's a clip from Ebenezer, which stars, one of its stars is Rupert Grint. Hello, Rupert. How are you? How are you doing? Yeah, very good, thanks. We're feeling festive, because we're surrounded by lots of Christmas paraphernalia, my first Christmas tree of the year. Yes, yes. You've done a Christmas film. Are you feeling Christmassy in any way? Do you know what? The answer's no. Before stepping into this room, not really. I was still in kind of Halloween mode. Right. It's kind of a big thing in our house. But now, yeah. I mean, even being on set was just being in that kind of Victorian world has got a very kind of Christmassy feeling.

32:02Simon Mayo: So tell us how you got attached to Ebenezer playing Bob Cratchit. How did it come your way? It kind of came out of the blue, really. Ty West, I spoke with him. He's the director. He's the director, yeah. and he sent me this script and this kind of idea of this, because obviously it's a story that's been kind of told many times in very various different ways. And this, he was kind of pitching, this is kind of very kind of classic Dickensian kind of telling that really kind of captures that kind of darkness and bleakness of the time. And it's a story I've always loved. and in every four, I think The Muppets was my first kind of frame to this story.

32:46Simon Mayo: I mean, I hesitate to say, it's sort of like the definitive Christmas Carol, but this isn't really competing with The Muppet Christmas Carol. No, I think this one treads a much darker kind of road. I guess when you're kind of adapting something that's been done many times, that you're always kind of looking for new ways of kind of looking at things. And I think that Ty, he was very keen to, particularly with the character of Bob, to kind of feel this weight that he's having. Because he's a very kind of miserable existence. He's working for this guy who treats him appallingly. And he's got this sick son and living in this kind of quite poverty stricken kind of time.

33:32Simon Mayo: but to just kind of feel that weight and and for him to kind of uh feel that kind of everything is kind of pressing down on him and and uh that was kind of an important side to kind of show because because ty west isn't the obvious person that you would associate necessarily with doing a christmas carol uh because you primarily associating with with horror i suppose in the the x trilogy and so on but you've been associated with horror as well it was that his way is that why he thought of you? Yeah, do you know what? I think it possibly was. I just kind of, I guess it was the kind of, yeah, I mean, my last few things have all been of that kind of genre.

34:12Simon Mayo: Servant, I did this M. Night Shaman TV series. Yeah, maybe it was something in that. Yeah, they're from kind of similar worlds, I think. I'd be interested to know, what can you do with Bob Cratchit? Because he's such a well-known character. In a way, you're our way into it. If we relate to anyone, we relate to you and your family. Not that we are the Victorian working poor, but you're the most normal person there. What can you do with that part? What did he want you to do? Yes, well, yeah, you're right. He kind of is the audience as well. He's kind of the grounding. And I think in past kind of adaptations, he's this kind of quite kind of saintly figure who sees the good in everyone.

34:56Simon Mayo: And I think that is kind of true. He doesn't hate Scrooge. He can see something in there that kind of has the potential to be good. But I think, yeah, I guess Ty's thing was to make him feel like someone who was really going through quite a tough time and to feel that kind of pull. And kind of being on set with Johnny as well was a lot of fun. Well, I was going to ask you, so you're on set with Johnny Depp, who plays Ebenezer, Surya McKellen. Yes. And being on that set, you've been on many impressive sets. But what was that like just to act alongside those folk? Because Johnny Depp is doing his thing and Surya is being Surya and it's amazing to watch.

35:46Simon Mayo: For you, what were you thinking? Yeah. Well, no, I mean, the same. I was kind of watching it as an audience as well. because I mean these are two very iconic people. It was quite daunting being in those scenes with both of them, I must admit. It was kind of quite an out-of-body kind of experience. But they're both such transformative kind of actors, I think. Johnny completely just disappears, really. And he's very unpredictable as well. And both of them actually, Ian as well, very mischievous, always kind of playing and finding kind of humour and fun. you never really quite know where it's going which is kind of a thrill to kind of...

36:28Simon Mayo: I was going to say, so you have to be on your metal if you're not quite sure what Johnny Depp and Serena McKellen are going to do next. Yes. It's like being on stage with Van Morrison. What on earth are they going to do? How do I follow that? I mean, can you react? Can you improvise at all here? Yes, there was definitely an element of that. You had to kind of be prepared what they would kind of throw out and Johnny is always kind of finding new things. Every take was kind of different. And it would be even kind of small things that you would be kind of playing at the door or like interacting with some kind of object.

37:02Simon Mayo: It was, yeah, you never really knew kind of what was going to come at you, which was kind of fun. You had to be alert. Yeah, you had to be alert and ready for anything. It seems that when you're doing a story like this, so it's published in 1843, it's never been out of print, which is an astonishing thing. So previous Bob Cratchits include Gene Lockhart, who was in the first one I could find in 1938. Yeah. Mervyn Johns in the Alistair Sim one in 1951. Kermit the Frog in 1992. Yeah. And Richard E. Grant, Recy fans. Gary Oldman, some of these are animated. Did you read the book again? Did you look at any of those?

37:44Simon Mayo: Or did you just think, no, I'm going to stick with the script and be my own Bob? Yes. I think I did the latter there. I think I just kind of treated it as its own new thing. And kind of, I mean, the text is very kind of faithful to the original. And yeah, I was just kind of being immersed in that world, I think, once you're in the kind of costume and you're on these amazing sets, it does have that effect on you. You kind of, you do lose yourself into this world, which is very helpful. And obviously it's a story that everyone knows. It almost feels like it's kind of always been there. It's kind of ingrained in...

38:23Simon Mayo: Is that why you wanted to be a part of it? You know, after the wizardry, I just wonder how you select, because obviously people are going to want you to be in their projects, how you choose what you're going to do and what you're not going to do. Yeah, absolutely. It always starts with the kind of the script. I'm kind of led by that. And the people involved just seemed like some really interesting, creative people. And Johnny, I've been a fan of his. You know, he's this kind of icon. And so it was, yeah, a real kind of thrill to kind of watch him just kind of completely transform was something to witness.

39:05Simon Mayo: And have you watched yourself in this film? I've seen I've not seen the full thing yet You don't like that do you? No I find it very difficult So I've seen it and you haven't Yes that's right You know more than me So why is that? I don't know it's something that I've always had It goes back I think I saw the first two Potter films I think and I sat through the premiere and various other screenings but ever since that I found it quite distracting Even when I'm on set, I don't like seeing the monitor or anything. I find it very distracting to kind of get in my head and then I kind of hyper-focus on tiny little things I'm doing and I find it better to just pretend it's not being filmed.

39:54Simon Mayo: Non-actors will find that incredible. Most people would think, of course, you want to see the whole thing with all the effects put in because, as you said, there's some horror and the ghosts are really, you know, these are scary ghosts. But you don't know that. I don't know that for sure but no I mean I have the experience of kind of being on set and I think that's I enjoy that element of it and kind of experiencing it from that side of the camera and yeah maybe one day I will kind of I do go back and I've seen I think now I've got kids as well not that they've seen the movie the Harry Potter movies yet but I'm kind of getting to a place where I can it's been enough time that'll be a surreal It's a surreal moment.

40:38Simon Mayo: That would make a good Instagram piece, wouldn't it? Yeah, I'll do something. And of course, as you brought the subject up, you're going back and you're putting the robes on again. I am, yeah. Something I didn't think I'd be doing. So this is Broadway? This is Broadway, yeah. And it's, yeah, it interested me because it's just, it's a character that I've kind of grown up with and I know very kind of intimately. and I think over the years we kind of became the same person. But it's also him in a very different time in his life. He's a dad now, so it kind of feels like quite a fresh new thing, which I'm quite excited about.

41:18Simon Mayo: Did you hesitate at all? Yeah, I think always, I mean, I think because I've spent so long kind of moving away and kind of being focused on doing other things outside of it, you don't really look back. but now I think it kind of feels like a good time to kind of re-enter that world. And it's back on TV and your message to the new Ron would be what? Well, yeah, I mean, I wrote him a letter actually before they started filming, just some words of kind of support and kind of handing over the baton because it was a huge part of all our lives And I really hope that they have a similar experience and enjoy it as much as we did.

42:03Simon Mayo: It's Harry Potter, the Cursed Child, and written by Jack Thorne, who writes everything, of course. And it's a great show. People are going to go crazy. It's a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to it. It's a great show, and I think it's going to be fun kind of going back and kind of experiencing it again in a very different kind of way. So we're sitting in a room with Christmas trees. What is Christmas like in the Grint household? I love Christmas. I think since having kids as well, it's just taken on a whole new kind of form. It's just so much fun. I mean, it's the usual thing. It's family and just making it as magical as possible for my two daughters.

42:45Simon Mayo: It's, yeah, it's so much fun. Is there any part of you at any stage of the Christmas process that is Scrooge-like and where you become bar humbug and you're just thinking, come on, do we really have to do this? Crack. I've had love-hate with crackers. I do like crackers and I always get them. Why would you hate a cracker? Well, I like the initial, I like the crack, but the... The context. Probably should rephrase that. Yeah, okay. In context, that makes perfect sense. It's just the context. It's just a lot of kind of... I just find them quite messy. and just never, the jokes. So yeah, I find them quite disappointing.

43:25But An Elf on a Shelf, never got behind that.

43:29Simon Mayo: Rupert Grint, thank you so much. And all the best for Ebeneez and all the best for Broadway next year. Thank you so much. And I suppose, happy Christmas. Yes, merry Christmas. Am I the first? Yes, you are actually, yeah. There you go. I like that. And we're speaking on the 11th of November and it still feels wrong, so I recorded that a few days ago. But when you're surrounded by Christmas trees and you're in effectively a grotto. And the message is writ large. The headlines take away from that, Rupert Grimm likes crack. He likes the crack from crackers and only scurrilous journalism would report it otherwise.

44:07Simon Mayo: But I think the big issue is, oh, there's a number of issues, but what do you do with Bob Cratchit? Because he has to be our way into the story. But anyway, whether it needs retelling, We shall find out, as Mark talks about Ebenezer's. Is Ebenezer good? Very good. Well done. I imagine the first of many making that question. So first things first, the tagline on the part, you know, before he was Scrooge, he was Ebenezer. No, he was always Ebenezer Scrooge. That's literally how it works. also that's a weird tagline because it makes it sound like this is an origin story which it isn't i mean it is in as much as it's a christmas carol which is an origin story it does go back and it does go back in time but you don't say before he was scrooge he was ebenezer it's just silly anyway so cast includes rupert grint andrea riseborough sam claflin daisy ridley arthur i mean it's just everybody um and serena mckellen and as uh as rupert grint said this is a story that has been told many times.

45:13Indeed, when we did The Secret of Cinema on Christmas movies, and Kim Newman was the lead writer on that show, Kim had this theory that every great Christmas movie was in fact a riff on a Christmas carol because the template was indestructible and could be bent to any shape at all, whether it was the comedy of Scrooge or the muppetry of Muppet Christmas Carol, which incidentally I think is widely regarded as one of the best versions of A Christmas Carol, not in an ironic way, that it really is a fantastically good version, not least because Michael Caine plays it completely straight. There's a great interview with him in which he talks about how he realised that the minute he was on set with the Muppets, he was not to do jokes.

45:57What his role was to do was to do it completely straight, which is incidentally a lesson which I think others could learn from.

46:04Simon Mayo: Can I just say, are we about to play the Mark Strong butt game? Okay, well, hold your fire for a second, all right? Just a question, just a question. So you listed previous Bob Cratchits, previously Scrooges, obviously, you mentioned Alistair Sim, and that's probably the most famous one. Other famous Ebeneezes, Seymour Hicks, Reginald Owen, Albert Finney, George C. Scott, Patrick Stewart, Jim Carrey, sort of, Bill Murray, sort of, and of course, Michael Caine. Now, in terms of this, you said it's weird because Ty West is not somebody you'd think of immediately. But of course, actually, because it's a ghost story and because there's a ghost story at Christmas is quite a big thing.

46:50And the idea of the gothic trappings of those, it does make sense. I mean, this owes a visual debt. I don't know whether you felt the same thing. It looked like an old Hammer movie. Everything about the sets and the lighting and indeed the titles, the way the titles appear on screen is a sort of retro thing, which is something that, you know, Ty West has a background, not just in horror, but also in retro horror. I mean, things like House of the Devil. And I really like the X movies, the X trilogy with Mia Goth. But he's a good director and he knows how to do scary. And in this, the ghost of Christmas past, the white-eyed ghost of Christmas past is particularly effective.

47:29I think that is a scary ghost. And I also think that there's a very Edgar Allan Poe-ish moment in which a black bird, I think it's, is it a raven? I think it is, emerges from a mouth in a way which is, that's proper sort of startling horror imagery. There are also, incidentally, some quite literate horror in-jokes. There is a moment in which Johnny Depp, as Ebenezer, lies on his bed and gets pulled down into the bed. Which, of course, if you're a horror fan, you'll remember that Johnny Depp in A Nightmare on Elm Street died by lying on a bed and being pulled down into the bed. And that cannot have been accidental.

48:14I mean, absolutely, there's a geezer of blood in A Nightmare on Elm Street. so Rupert Green firstly what a lovely bloke that interview just made me think he sounds like the most down-to-earth famous person you've ever met right yes I think I mean he says this in he sort

48:30Simon Mayo: of has become Ron Weasley that the two he he is that guy and and I'm saying this in in a positive way you know he I get the impression and that's the first time he's been on the show that that's the guy he is yeah he's a dad he's obviously made a small amount of money through being in those extraordinary films and he's he's absolutely fine yeah and he's got a good life and he's you know he's got a wife he's got two kids got two daughters looking forward to christmas really nice guy he's got a tottenham hat on the floor because he's okay fine which i notice has been edited out of that interview for which i claim censorship it's the c word sentence it's been stamped yeah it's been Anyway, but yes.

49:16Nice guy. Perfect casting is Bob Cratchit because he plays it admirably straight. And actually that is a role which can appear pitiful, but he doesn't make it like that. I think he brings a sort of element of stoic melancholia to it. And certainly his performance is a lot less showy than some of the other performances. I mean, you mentioned, for example, Sir Ian McKellen doing his thing. We heard a little bit of it. And he was absolutely doing Sir Ian McKellen. as for Johnny Depp doing his thing yeah he is doing his thing that was the best way I could think of to refer to it really and his thing appears to be dying not of old age or greed or loneliness but have having swallowed an overdose of acting pills I mean if Jack Sparrow gave vent to Johnny Depp's worst acting instincts I think closely followed by his Buster Keatney thing in Benny and June.

50:13I mean, this is essentially, you know, it's Pirates of the Victoriana, isn't it? It's him doing, I mean, once again, that kind of slightly slurry, wobbly, in inverted commas, British camp accent in which all the syllables become soft, so tea becomes s, so it sounds a little bit drunk. And a huge amount of eye rolling, a huge amount of gurning, a huge amount of finger acting huge amount of just just stuff and i find it amazing that an actor who was as controlled as he was in films like well he's brilliant in edward i mean i think edward is his definitively best performance i thought he was brilliant in edward scissorhands um the fact that he should have descended into this kind of performance that he does now and in a way i think fear and loathing in Las Vegas was the turning point because in that film he is acting, he is making his body into the shapes of the cartoons, the company, the Hunter S.

51:20Thompson text. But after that he just appears to just go, okay fine now it's just going to be Jack Sparrow from now on. And I found his performance really annoying. Now I wanted to ask you a question. You said to Rupert Grint, it's like being on stage with Van Morrison and that is a loaded comparison because what you meant was you know the band don't know where he's going to go but everyone's watching him right but also there's the old maxim about there's two kinds of people in the world people who like van morrison and people who've met van morrison now obviously johnny depp's popular stock has been severely damaged by events yes my problem with this I don't think it's that.

52:05I genuinely think that he's very bad in it and very annoying. What did you think?

52:14Simon Mayo: Prior to doing the, at one stage, Ty West might have been part of that interview anyway. And these things change all the time. So it was just Rupert. And that was absolutely fine. Because if Ty had been part of the interview, obviously we'd have had to address the, you know, why he wanted Johnny Depp to be his Ebenezer Scrooge. and i as again you know part of the prep for the interview was reading again about the court cases and found that in and everyone will have their their own interpretation of this um i'm not ready to see johnny depp in anything that's my personal point of view um i don't think he emerges unscathed from all of that at all i don't want to go you know see people can look it up and they'll remember all the details uh and so on so um so i started off thinking am i am i ready to to watch this and after 10 minutes or so i was thinking okay this is captain jack it is jack sparrow he's disappeared he's gone into that's what the only way i could think of it was saying he's he's doing his thing that's what he's doing yeah and and i have never liked that thing Right.

53:27Simon Mayo: So people listening to this who won't have seen it, which is pretty much everybody, you know exactly what he's going to do with it. And that's what he does. And if that's what you want, then that is what he delivers. But do you think it is a bad performance? I think it is a bad performance. I mean, I know that I am out of step with the rest of the world on Pirates of the Caribbean because I always hated him as Jack Sparrow. I always thought it was his worst performance. But do you think his performance is bad? Or do you think it's just that there is so much baggage that you can't get beyond that?

54:01Because I think, and I'm being completely honest about this, I really went in trying to just watch what was on the screen and thinking, he is really annoying me. And I really think it's the performance because I disliked Jack Sparrow, you know, when he was still incredibly popular.

54:21Simon Mayo: Well, I don't know whether I'd say it was bad because he is doing what he was employed to do. So Ty West obviously wanted that. That's what he wanted. And that's what he delivers because that's what he can do. I also found it annoying. I'd be very happy if I don't see him in anything. for quite a while so but whether it's whether it's but it's not like badly acted it's just he's doing it's badly acted i think he's doing that pantomime thing yeah i think it is and i think he could take a leaf out of michael cain's book and understand that less is more and uh and i i just think he i just i yeah and i and it was a shame because there are there are there are things in the film in the design in the other performances you know that are perfectly up my distrasse but i just couldn't get beyond him so i think i think your answer is yes we are playing the mark strong game because this is ebenezer with a bunch of really good people and really good actors but johnny depp yeah i think that's the way to look at it and rupert grint if you hate christmas crackers you're going to really hate this

55:36tight

55:41Simon Mayo: very good Mark as you know as you know I've just been over to Copenhagen to see the to see the family I couldn't help but remember back in the day a long time ago when child one asked me a bit of an awkward question really at the same age as the grandkids where does poo come from daddy and i said well you know after you swallow your food it gets mashed into a warm soupy paste and sloshes around your stomach and then it spends hours winding through your intestine with digestive juices bacteria and gases breaks it down into a thick brown smelly sludge and your body squeezes out all the useful bits and what's left sits fermenting in your bowel until it's finally pushed out as poo thank you daddy he said and what about tigger yeah i see i I was literally at Tigger's front door the minute you said, where does poo come from?

56:34Simon Mayo: I know. But, you know, we have to get there. And Mark, I just found an 80-year-old painting in my loft. I told her to leave immediately. How the heck did she get up there in the first place? Okay, that's good. That's better. Well done. Remember the Christophers. Remember the Christophers. And Mark, why is it so easy to break out of Bourneville Prison? I don't know. Why is it so easy to break out of Bourneville Prison? chocolate bars hey see Rupert's going to have hated all of those so well I don't think you'd have got the poo joke in a cracker because I don't think it was way too long may I come imagine just add a quick PS to the Ebenezer review if you're a podcast subscriber and you may have noticed that your podcast arrived late it arrived at 5 o 'clock and the reason was because reviews of Ebenezer were embargoed until 5pm on Thursday.

57:32And that suggests to me that even the studio aren't crazy about the film. Why would that suggest that? Because it's you holding back the review until as late as possible.

57:44Simon Mayo: Holding back the years. That one. Terrible. Okay, still to come. Mark's going to review, what are you going to review next? Fjord. Say it again. fjord also do some what's on and in take two more questions and this week we're asking the very english question which filmmaker do we believe has the best batting average hugh mark explaining that what he understands about sport could be written on the back of a postage stamp but sadly there's no time for that just now just search kerman of my own patron join us over there you can get both takes ad free plus our exclusive fortnightly extra extra show take ultra

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59:07Simon Mayo: Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

59:18Simon Mayo: Okay, so here's an email from Shea. yes says dear uh hello dr ann dr young and of course jason a few years ago i built iwitter.com okay so let's just oh hello thank you very much indeed shane is still a wonderful thing uh have a look at iwitter.com it's a wonderful thing where you can see a whole bunch of stuff about the show it's completely and it's got nothing to do with us it's just down to shane and people uh who listen to this podcast log on show where they are it doesn't reveal anything it's like roughly where you are in the country. You can't find anyone. You can't go to their door or anything, but it's a big community from around the world and it's a wonderful thing.

59:58Simon Mayo: So Shane says, I built iWitter.com and it was wonderful to watch your global community fill the map. My wife, who isn't nearly as into films as I am, was amazed to discover fellow listeners in her native Korea and even a couple in North Korea. I think they've kind of disappeared in a disturbing North Korean style. A few weeks ago, she excitedly told me that her favourite Korean podcast, Two Women Talking, had been discussing us two. How about that? Wow, so first Italy, now Korea. They were marvelling at the community that you've built, how engaged and welcoming your listeners are, and even cited iWitter as an example of a fan creating something that the community embraced.

1:00:43Simon Mayo: As a result, I have cloned the site for their listeners at toctoro.com, T-O-C-T-O-R-O. I thought you'd appreciate knowing that creators on the other side of the world are looking at what you've built and thinking we'd love a community like that. Up with blue waves, drowning orange blobs and all that. So I think I'm imagining that what we can do is we can put a link to this in the show notes. I think that's the thing to say. But I did look at toctoro.com this morning and it does look exactly like ours. Fewer listeners. But anyway, that's a childish point. Shane says, P.S. I finally saw The Devils and was blown away.

1:01:21Simon Mayo: More importantly, I realised I've dramatically underestimated Oliver Reed all these years. Yes, yes. Because he basically became a cartoon figure. Which of his films best showcased just how good an actor he really was? I mean, The Devils is great. Women in Love is an amazing film. We just watched that again the other night with a good lady professor. He's writing about it at the moment. I mean, when he was on form, he was matchless. And it is a shame that that kind of shambling caricature figure became what people remember because he was really good on camera. So go to iWitter.com and you'll find lots of people around the world who listen to this nonsense.

1:02:02Simon Mayo: And Shane, thank you very much. Indeed he's doing the same for TopToro.com. So you're right, Italy and South Korea. all being mentioned as people who reference this show, which is very nice, correspondence at co-remenu.com. What else is out? Tell us the title that you like to say. Fjord. I just like saying that word. I like the way it sounds, Fjord. So this is the new film from Romanian filmmaker Christian Mundiou, whose credits include Beyond the Hills and Four Months, Three Weeks and Two Days, both of which were exceptional. This is a co-pro between Romania, France, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, and stars Renata Reinsver, who was brilliant in The Worst Person in the World and Sentimental Value, and a frankly unrecognisable Sebastian Stan.

1:02:51Now, I last saw Sebastian Stan being Donald Trump in The Apprentice, right? A friend of mine, a colleague of mine, watched the whole of this film without ever realising that the main male lead was Sebastian Stan, who I also didn't know was Romanian, Romanian-American. And so none of this, and completely unrecognizable. So this film is the Romanian entry for the best international feature at the Academy. So Sebastian Stan and Renata Rainsworth stars Mihai and Lisbeth. They're a conservative Christian couple who are coming back to Lisbeth's Norwegian hometown. They're relocating there. The story is apparently loosely inspired by a real life story of the Bodnaryu family, renamed in the film, it's fictionalized in the film, who in the real life case, their children were taken away from them by the authorities.

1:03:49Now, I didn't know about the original case. In fact, I didn't know very much about the film at all, other than the name of its director in the start time. So in the film, Bihai and Lisbeth are accused of physically abusing their children of slapping them or hitting them. And the children are removed from the family home by the child protection services. And this all happens because one of the children is spotted with a bruise on their face and a mark on their shoulder. And the film is deliberately kind of vague about exactly where these bruises have come from. We We see several scenarios, some at school, some at home, which could have produced the bruises.

1:04:32But it soon becomes clear that the progressive Norwegian community has an innate distrust of these conservative Christians and their values, and essentially bring the full force of child protection against them in a way that it's hard to unpick whether what they're motivated by is a desire simply to protect the children or a hostility to their values. Here is a clip. The film plays out in many languages, but here is an English language clip. Apparently we risk prison once we admitted that we slapped them.

1:05:15Simon Mayo: Elizabeth, we can't sit like sheep and watch these people abuse our power. I brought a lawyer. Who plays by the rules. She's doing her best. Her best. The best is not enough if you want to have the children back. What do you want me to do? Nothing. You did your best. Now I take over.

1:05:36Now, I have to say that watching this, I was reminded of, you remember Anatomy of a Fall, Simon?

1:05:41Simon Mayo: Yes. Yeah. So you remember that there's had that brilliantly kind of balanced ambiguity all the way through. So in that film, Sandra Huller played a wife and mother who was accused of pushing her husband out of a window. and the film deliberately leaves open, you know, the question of what you think happened. And I thought it was great. In fact, you and I discussed it afterwards. And I think a number of people had different views about what had actually happened. In the case of this, the same ambiguity is at the heart of it. I mean, a major theme of this movie, incidentally, is language. You remember there's the whole thing in Anatomy of a Fall in which she's testifying in one language and then she switches to another language, which because it's to do with, she can only explain herself in that.

1:06:26Well, that language shifting happens also in this film. And it kind of embodies what is a cultural clash as well as everything else. So for example, does the word hit mean the same in different languages? At one point we see the father being shown a statement of what he has apparently said. He said, I didn't say that. I slapped. I didn't hit. They said, well, no, but it means the same thing. It doesn't mean the same thing. and but it so what this does is it opens up a kind of wider conversation about what all these things what the words and the actions mean i mean essentially it becomes a brilliantly balanced meditation on cultural difference on the way in which not just words and and beliefs but also actions mean different things in different places at different times it's not just a question of what happened, but a question of how we interpret what happened.

1:07:27And I think it says an awful lot about the power of the filmmaking that I found myself, and I'm sure other members of the audience will find themselves doing this too, aligning emotionally with a political and personal philosophy from which I am completely alienated in real life. And if it is true that, as Roger Ebert says, you know, cinema is a machine for creating empathy, then this achieves that on the highest goal of making me feel empathetic for people and arguments which are completely at odds with my own theological and political beliefs. And, you know, quite often people say, well, Mark only liked that film because it aligns with his politics.

1:08:10This is a perfect example of a film which doesn't do that at all. It absolutely doesn't. And the power of the filmmaking is that it makes you genuinely question what happened, how it happened, and what it means that it did or didn't happen. It helps that the performances are utterly astonishing. I mean, we all know that Renata Rainsford, like Sandra Huller, is one of the greatest actors of her generation. But Sebastian Stan was a revelation for me, partly because had I not known that it was him in advance, I would be had been exactly the same as my colleague who watched the whole film and said where was Sebastian Stan only to be told that that was the man he'd been watching for the last you know two hours as for the director I think he's at the the cutting edge of challenging cinema cinema that feels real but also isn't afraid to have moments of surrealism I mean this is a very down-to-earth drama, but it is a down-to-earth drama which does not rule out the possibility of transcendence.

1:09:16I mean, there is a sequence in it, and it's so fleeting that at least one critic that I spoke to didn't even notice it. But if you see the film, there is a moment in it which actually mirrors, weirdly enough, a sequence from The Devils in which Sister Jeanne has a vision of Father Grandier as Jesus walking across the water to her. And when you see the film, there is a very, very throwaway moment that is then repeated at the end of the film, but in such a subtle way that you barely even notice that it's happening. And it is, I think, it was a sort of an opening the door to the possibility of transcendence.

1:10:05I mean, clearly, as you can hear, there's so much to say about it. There's so much to think about it. And people will think totally different things and people will interpret the events in totally different ways. And I'm also certain that we'll get some correspondence next week who say, Mark, that isn't what happened in the film. It's not because the whole thing about it is to do with that ambiguity. I thought it was really masterful and really very, very impressive. And I can't stop thinking about it.

1:10:31Simon Mayo: When you've seen Fjord, let us know what you think. Correspondence at covenomode.com. Thanks for the what's-ons that you're sending in. Some as audio, some as video. Let's just bring you one this week. This is Charlotte. Hi, Mark and Simon. I curate the classic comedy film night, I'll Say She Is, at the Cinema Museum. As part of an ongoing Martin and Lewis season, on the 16th and 17th of November, I'm going to be welcoming Jerry Louis's son Chris Lewis to present two really rare screenings. The first is of his father's so-called home movies, these very naughty, experimental and hilarious films made outside of the Hays Code in the early 50s.

1:11:11Simon Mayo: It's the first time they've ever screened in the UK, only the second time they've ever screened publicly and you won't find them anywhere online. Trust me, I've tried. On the 17th, Chris will be returning to present The Nutty Professor, his father's most acclaimed film. Both events will be preceded by a book signing and followed by a Q &A with proceeds going towards the Cinema Museum's fundraiser to secure its permanent home. You can get more information at cinemamuseum.org.uk cinemamuseum, one word .org.uk Charlotte, thank you very much indeed. Correspondence at codomail.com is where we are. That's it for this week.

1:11:47Simon Mayo: It's been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Dom, Eric, Josh, Heather and Avi the redactor was Simon Poole, who amazingly is not on holiday this week. In take two, we're directing you to the Overflow car park for more chat about current film releases, giving you some film viewing suggestions related to one of this week's new releases, which is Courtroom Dramas inspired by Prima Facey. Other pronunciations are acceptable. Mark will be, yes, doing lots of stuff. Don't forget, we're in Bristol in December. Mark, what is your film of the week? My film of the week is absolutely Fjord.

1:12:20Simon Mayo: thank you very much indeed for downloading and listening to this podcast another one has landed just alongside

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