Will Mark lose his head over the GHOSTS film? with Jim Howick & Laurence Rickard

0:00Simon Mayo: Now, Mark, I don't know why all these trendy podcasters need to sell such tat in their online shops these days. You'd have thought the show would have been enough for them. I mean, look at this tea towel. Simon, I think that's our shop you're browsing, isn't it? Oh, so it is. Actually, those Kermit and Mayo director's chairs are very nice, and it's all incredibly slick and easy. That's probably what confused me. That's because it's powered by Shopify. Shopify is where you go to start your business. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, which means our top production team can concentrate on, well, whatever it is that they do.

0:34While Shopify does all the hard work, because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it.

0:41Simon Mayo: And Shopify checkout helps more customers finish their purchase. Then when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Simple. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. When you put your body in the hands of a surgeon, you assume your doctor will do you no harm. I'm looking at the surgery board for tomorrow going, these people are f***ed. But when your doctor's in it just for the money, something absolutely insane happens.

1:24One doctor says, yeah, I did a lumbar fusion. My kickback was$25 ,000. And the other doctor's going, well, I only got$12 ,000 because I did a neck. This is a story about a massive web of fraud and deception. Dozens of doctors all over Southern California. A fraud worth over$1 billion.

1:45Simon Mayo: Patients were committing suicide, losing their homes, losing their marriages. From Sony Music Entertainment and Western Sound, this is Dr. Billions. Available now on The Binge. Search for Dr. Billions wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad-free.

2:19Simon Mayo: film questions answered as best we can in questions schmestions you can get all that extra stuff via apple podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non-fruit related devices there's never been a better time to become a vanguard easter free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts and if you're already a vanguard easter we salute you

2:51Simon Mayo: So it's late at night on Monday, and I am very, very discombobulated by getting a text from Mark that says, Goal! With an exclamation mark. Now, Monday night was when Spurs were playing Coventry. They won. Yes, they did. But I got your text before I got the update on my phone saying they'd scored a third goal. So that was the first time that I've ever had a sports flash from you. Yes. Well, so what happened was, I'd come out of a screening and last projection is standing Dave Norris and his good lady wife, the good lady photographer, her outdoors, were in a pub that was showing me because Dave is a Spurs supporter and apparently once took you to a game in which they - Terrible.

3:45Simon Mayo: one of the worst experiences i've ever had in my life thanks dave but it was nice to get your update and i'm wondering if it's a service i can you know subscribe to that mark's mark provides sporting updates yes i can do it i don't know how that's going to happen how much more would i pay oh yeah i think i'd probably pay$1.99 a year to get sporting updates from you yeah and for that you'd probably just get like one text every now and then when i'm in the pub with dave norris But look, so last week, we didn't need to address the elephant in the room. Last week - Simon Paul, you mean. He is the elephant in the room.

4:22Yes. You were off. Where were you? I was in Marrakesh. Marrakesh. Riding on the Marrakesh Express. And rather than getting a tippity-top celebrity presenter, the production team took over and Simon Paul presented in your absence. Now, did you listen? Of course not. Okay.

4:40Simon Mayo: I don't listen when anyone else does the show, because what's the point? As I've said before, if they're better than you, then you feel insecure. And if they're truly terrible, then you also feel terrible. So there's no point. So I took it as having a week off. So, you know, I can only assume that it was, let me see, I've written it down here. Really okay. Really okay. Well, I am almost imagining that since he's now back in goal in the production booth this week, he will have inserted some emails congratulating himself on how fabulously it went. Yeah, they won't be making much of an appearance.

5:22Oh, really? Are you censoring? Of course. Are you literally going through and taking out the emails? Yes.

5:28Simon Mayo: Well, because it will just encourage him because he'll just be saying, Oh, Simon, you're looking peaky. Do you want to take a week off next week? yeah exactly or is that a cough I think the next time I go off Heather should do the reviews that would be fine that would be that would be a very good idea I'm fully I think there should be a production rota whereby everyone involved in the show gets to host one section of it yeah and then they'll end up with a greater appreciation of the fine art of film reviewing it's very good to be back however this is a very lovely thing it's fabulous to have you back thank you what are you reviewing when you get to review Honestly, this week's show is so packed.

6:08You know, it's more packed than the Northern line at eight o 'clock in the morning. We have reviews of Fatherland, which is the new film starring the brilliant Sandra Huller. All Rivers Spill Their Stories to the Sea, which is the new documentary by Jeannie Finlay. Clayface, which does exactly what it says on the tin. And Ghosts, The Possession of Buttonhouse, with our special guests.

6:30Simon Mayo: Jim Howick, who plays Spectral Scoutmaster, Pat Butcher and Lawrence Rickard, who plays both the dead caveman Robin and Headless Humphrey in Ghosts, the Possession of Buttonhouse, spinning out from the very successful TV show, of course. And in Take Two, Mark. Yeah, in Take Two, even more top releases. Wildwood, which is like a stop motion movie. Ali G, Who Is I? Yes, he's back. And Clara and the Sun. And because of that, we don't have a Three Questions, Five Questions, Your Majesty Film Club this week, because we've just got too many films to review. What does Clayface say on the tin? Does it just say there's a person with a clay face?

7:12Simon Mayo: Yep. So therefore it's a horror film, is it? Let me cover this when we get to it, because the genre is interesting. Is it like a papier-mâché thing, like a school project? That's what it is. It's exactly what it is. It's just about a school project to make a face out of clay. Or it could be a beauty treatment, like a boots number seven thing that you put on your face, and then in the morning you wake up and you're more beautiful. Is it one of those? It's like mud pack, isn't it? Is it mud that they, what are the things that people, you see them in movies that they, like he does it in American Psycho, that he puts it on his face and then it goes hard and then he peels it off.

7:45What is that doing? Is it taking the blackheads out or something?

7:50Simon Mayo: I got no idea. I imagine it would do that and get rid of all the creases and make your skin look stretched and young and vibrant. I don't really want my skin to look fresh and young and vibrant. I quite like looking like Carl from Up. You can get take two, by the way, ad free if you don't want the ads, along with all the other fun stuff by heading to our Patreon page. Just search Kermit and Mayo Patreon and you'll find us there all lovely and gorgeous. An email here before you start your filmage from Nicholas Carey, BSc MSC, PhD. Does he say, Dear Simon, last Last week's presenter was brilliant.

8:31Simon Mayo: No, what he says is this. Good morning. So are we really doing this again? Mark's Oscars accumulator story has now cropped up three times recently, including last week's episode, where it was charmingly dubbed Accumulator Gate. Gents, please, I thought we'd settled this. I actually had an email read out on the very last show you did in the previous incarnation, explaining why this story cannot be true. In a former life, I worked as an odds compiler for a major bookmaker and managed markets, including the Oscars, including the Oscars. So I can say with confidence, bookmakers do not accept accumulator bets on the Oscars.

9:12Simon Mayo: These kind of novelty markets are advertised as singles only, partly because the results are known in advance by a small number of people. If accumulators were allowed, anyone with inside knowledge could win enormous sums for a tiny stake. Which means, Mark, you could never have won the£20 ,000 you believe escaped you by failing to place an accumulator. The bet simply would not have been accepted. When I pointed this out previously, I expected relief that he hadn't really missed out on all that money. Instead, he seemed mildly annoyed that reality had ruined a perfectly good story. This has a ring of truth about it.

9:48Simon Mayo: It does. yet here we are years later and the tale lives on sorry mark the universe is not trying to tell you anything the entire premise is fake please let this be the end of it thank you for your attention to this matter nicholas carey ps there are also mathematical reasons accumulators aren't offered on awards markets but life is too short and this email is already longer than it needs to be so your story is no no but my story my story is what happened i mean there's a you can there There'll probably be a record of transmission of the Radio 5 thing. The whole thing went on. I mean, whether or not it turns out retrospectively that it could not have been done, Danny spent the entire morning, the whole show from like 6.30 till 9 o 'clock, humiliating me by getting people to write in saying, if you've done this.

10:37Now, I entirely accept that maybe I couldn't have placed any of those bets. Yes, you did not lose money. No, but I didn't know that. What I do know is that for the three hours, It hit me so hard, I literally rang my wife to apologise to her for what a terrible mistake I'd made. And I do think it was the universe telling me not to ever place a bet. The old diehard Methodist in me still believes that. Whether or not those bets would ever have been acceptable. They would not. They would not. No, fine. It's a scam. Never let reality get in the way of a good story. and it was a very good story as originated by and practiced upon me by Danny Baker.

11:19Simon Mayo: And it was a scam. It was a Danny Baker scam. So whenever you try and tell the story again, we all know that essentially, although it happened on air, no accumulator would have been accepted for betting on the Oscars. Yeah, okay, fine. But the trauma is real. The struggle is real and so is the trauma. Exactly. But anyway, Nicholas Carey, thank you very much indeed for setting the record straight. I suspect the story will still appear again. I have never let reality get in the way of a good story. Correspondence at Codemayor.com. What is out there? What might we be wanting to go and see? All Rivers Spill Their Stories to the Sea, which is the new film from Jeannie Finley, who is this brilliant documentary maker.

11:59She made Orion, The Man Who Would Be King, which I loved, great hip-hop hoax, which was a story that was then retold, I think, rather less successfully in the feature film California Scheming. Sound It Out, which is about the Teesside Record store to which this has a dedication, Seahorse, Your Fat Friend. I mean, I think she's a great filmmaker. So this latest doc takes us to a beach in Teesside in Hartlepool, which in December 2021 was the site of a mass die-off. Now, this was in the news. I didn't know about it, but apparently it was quite a big news story. Vast amounts of crabs, lobsters, clams, fish washed up on the shore.

12:36And the documentary has got this footage of this kind of carpet of sea life lying on this beach, twitching in this really strange way. And the area spanned like a 40 mile stretch from Hartlepool down to Whitby. And it basically, that incident decimated the local, you know, inshore fishing. local fishermen connected this die-off to the dredging that was happening in the River Tees which is historically one of the most polluted rivers in the UK in preparation for the new Brexit bonus Tees Freeport and they were saying that material was dredged and then dumped at sea and then that's when the mass die-off happened here is a clip from the trailer for the film

13:23Simon Mayo: Dead lobster Oh man, it does smell it all, doesn't it? Never seen anything like this before. Ego system wipe out. You can see behind me all of the work that's going on, making sure ecologically we don't damage the river. It's just disturbing a historic sediment. Surely they realise that some of the things that they are tipping are toxic. What's going on, ladies then? The fishing community say die-offs continue. I just wish somebody had listened to us. Well, Jeannie Finlay did. And what she does is she takes us into the company of fishermen, particularly Stan, who is this really great local character who can trace his family's fishing heritage back for 500 years.

14:16And he says for centuries it was a good living. Now the catch has completely collapsed. there's one bit in which we see him catch um he goes out and he'd be as his catch is about she says how much is that worth he says 70 or 80 quid and genie says how much is the diesel costing he says well about 70 or 80 quid and the the film follows him his own health is failing leading this grassroots campaign to find out what happened how it happened how the establishment are essentially pulling together to protect big business and the argument of the film is to cover up the truth. I mean, I've interviewed Jeannie a lot of times.

14:52I think she's such a great documentarian. She said that for her, it's a film about power and political gaslighting, which makes it sound tough. But the thing is, it isn't. And the reason it isn't is because you spend the film in the company of people like Stan and his fellow fishers, and they are just great company. They're engaging, they're entertaining, they're full of gallows humour because this terrible stuff is happening to their livelihood. I think one of the phrases we use is It's a fun film about grief. And it kind of is. It's also, as with all of Jeannie Finley's documentaries, it's got this weird visual poetry to it.

15:26It actually starts with these images of the die-off, which were captured by this camera person, Adam Menden, who was there when it happened. And it's got this kind of weird, slightly horrifying poetry to it. And I think one of the things that Jeannie Finley does is she's very conscious of the way in which a documentary will play to an audience and will draw the audience into a story that they may not have had any interest in before. And I think she has this brilliant thing of making the imagery of the documentary fit the story. There's one scene in it, which is kind of like a meeting in which they're all discussing what they're going to do about it.

16:04And it kind of reminded me of Ken Loach's Land and Freedom, which I absolutely love. There's a scene in Land and Freedom, which they're having this sort of big political discussion. But they're asked why it is that they think that the government down south won't listen to them. And one of them says, because with stupid, thick fishermen and they're educated, it sticks out like a sore thumb. And that kind of thing runs all the way through. So it is very much a documentary about them and their experience and their sense of community and this community coming together. I mean, it's a real kind of David and Goliath story.

16:38The other thing that was really interesting was watching it reminded me at some points of Rose of Nevada, because one of the things that Rose of Nevada is about, is about how the fishing industry is holding this community together. In fact, there's a line in Rose of Nevada in which the character played by George McCoy says, what's going on? This other character says, well, we call it community. This is very much a story about community, and it's a real privilege to spend time in the company of the people. I asked Jeannie Finley how she had earned their trust, quite apart from the kind of connections that she has with them, personal connections.

17:10And she said, well, really interestingly, it was after Mr. Bates versus the post office that people started to realize, oh, maybe telling this kind of story through film or through television can have an impact. Because she said that the local fishermen could see that that had had a result. And so maybe there was a value in telling what is a small story in a big way. I think it's a terrific documentary. you don't need to know anything about it. I mean, as I said, I hadn't seen the news footage beforehand. I didn't know about it. But I felt after watching it that I had spent time in the company of these people, of a real community, really under threat, but just so much warmth and a solidarity between them.

17:57So I absolutely loved it. And it's been playing at documentary festivals and getting great responses. And it's finally releasing now, and I'd encourage anyone to go and see it.

18:07Simon Mayo: all rivers spill their stories to the sea. I was just thinking while you were saying that, it does sound like it's well worth checking out. Fisher people doesn't quite work. No, it's fishers, I think, isn't it? Are they fishers? Just fishermen and fisher women sounds better. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Fisher people said. I know, I know, I know. Suddenly you go, they sound like mythological creatures. But then I was thinking, where's that song? That song, I will make you fishers of men, fishers of men. Yeah. That's a hymn, isn't it? That's a Sunday school thing. It's a Sunday school, yeah. Well, I went to Sunday school.

18:39That's why I know it.

18:40Simon Mayo: Yeah. But that doesn't really help. Didn't you? But surely they'd be fisherwomen. No, listen, I don't know. Fishers, I think, is the correct. Maybe someone who's engaged can tell us precisely what. If there is listening, a woman who is a fisher, could you let us know what the correct term is? and what yeah and what you'd like to be called exactly uh correspondence at coveredermode.com still to come after the break we've got the box office top 10 the laughter lift and mark will be reviewing clay face which does what it says on the tin it's a beauty thing uh i think you know makes you look nicer in the morning uh ghosts possession of button house we'll be talking to some of the stars all rivers spill their stories to the sea you've already heard about but if mark wants to mention it again i will he'll be doing that also fatherland Quick reminder, we'll be at the Bristol Beacon on December the 6th.

19:35Simon Mayo: You can head to the address on our show notes for your tickets. More in a second.

19:43Simon Mayo: Hey, Mark Kermode. Fancy a fun quick-fire quiz? I thought you'd never ask. Great. How do you protect yourself from spoilers? Well, you never watch the end of the film. Well, a bit impractical, but fine. How do you protect yourself from getting wound up by noisy cinema goers? There's no need. I'm a very tolerant man, as you know. How do you protect yourself from getting bored of the exorcist? It's impossible. Anyway, shall we start this fun quiz? What's more fun than being well protected? Okay, is that part of the quiz? I'm doing the questions, thank you. How do you protect yourself from online scams?

20:16Ah, finally, a sensible question. Nord VPN's next-gen antivirus. Blocks, scams and phishing before they reach you. Fake texts, dodgy links. Your account is locked. Emails, same app as the VPN. One tap. the biggest protection in the game.

20:30Simon Mayo: Correct. Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app. Head to nordvpn.com slash take to get an exclusive NordVPN deal plus four months extra risk-free.

20:55Simon Mayo: Okay, the box office top 10 starts disturbingly at number 10 with The Social Reckoning in America number 13. It is interesting that this has not done well. I mean, I think it's underperformed quite impressively. I like the themes and I like the story. I do think the issue is that Aaron Sorkin shouldn't be directing. I think that he needs another director. When you look at what happened with Social Network, it is a better directed film. But I think you and I both, and this is like the old men in the room, both watched it with a sense of my word, yes, I do genuinely think that social media is destroying the world.

21:36And what was the phrase you used? We're all in big trouble.

21:39Simon Mayo: Yes. I mean, there are other ways of expressing it, but that's certainly one way of saying it. I think that I understand the criticism, which is, it does feel, you know, this is a few years ago now. We've already moved on. And the problems of what Facebook was doing, everyone is now concerned about what AI is doing. But the basic underlying theme, I still think, carries into 2026. I agree. I agree. which is that a very, very small number of people are doing very bad things and we cannot do anything about it. That's the thing. But apart from that, everything is fine. Number nine is Sense and Sensibility.

22:18Simon Mayo: Yes, everything is fine. That's reassuringly good. A story that plays out in the pre-internet age, and it's great because no matter what the problems are, no one is on social media. So hooray, two thumbs up. I really liked it. I thought it was good, and I thought Gorgeous George was absolutely fabulous. Resident Evil is at number eight. Terrific fun. and big discussion about whether or not it means anything more than what it actually is. But I really enjoyed it. And as I said, I haven't. Somebody said in one of the below the line things, why does Mark Kermode always say I don't play video games like he's making a point about how good he is not to play video games?

22:49No, the reason I say it is in the same way as I say it's based on a book which I haven't read, is to flag up that I'm speaking from a position of ignorance. It is not a position of principle. It is a position of admitting what you don't know, which incidentally is something which will come up in a review of a film coming up later on in the show, which is a spinoff from a TV program with which I am not familiar. I just think it is good manners to make people aware of what you are and are not familiar with.

23:19Simon Mayo: It's funny how our critics always have a funny voice. It is, isn't it? Yeah. Putting on those interesting phrases. Number seven here, number eight over there is Heart of the Beast. Number six here, number four over there is Whale Fall, thanks to Knight Gauntke on YouTube. Really? While I see what they were trying to do here, I honestly felt that the symbolism was very heavy-handed and the whole father-son arc and the convenient resolution was pretentious horse nonsense. i just adapted that one well it's it's actually a shame that you weren't here the week that we did this review which was last week um because the whole the whole issue with it is you know we've had the long discussion about the fact that jaws isn't about a shark or jaws is about a shark well it is yes it has been sorted yeah it has in the case of this this wants not to be about a whale but it is about a whale it wants to be about a father and son but it's actually about being swallowed by a whale okay that would see what's really interesting that is that i you know it happens very rarely that i have a dream that i can remember but i the other night i woke myself up because i was having such a bad dream oh no and the dream involved my child number one being swallowed by a whale no but but the intriguing thing is so that was all very upsetting but i haven't seen whale fall i did not listen to the show last week and i have not read a review so i have no idea why that particular symbolism should have happened but it was a very disturbing and very um upsetting to the extent that i made the decision to leave the dream and wake up that's how well listen i mean the fact that you can do that i had a nightmare the other day which was i was in a car park and i put the car into reverse and it started going backwards and i didn't have reversing mirror and I knew that I needed to put my foot on the brake to stop the car from running into things, but I could not make my foot move.

25:18And so the car was just going backwards, going backwards, and I couldn't stop it. And then I woke up in a panic.

25:24Simon Mayo: Wow, that does sound slightly terrifying. Yeah. And then I was buried alive. If anyone wants to, if we have any dream interpreters are listening. Me with my whale story and Mark with his reverse unstoppable reverse gear. That would be a good thing. Correspondence at codamero.com. Other Mummy is at number five here, number three in America. Yeah, well I didn't see it because it wasn't press screened. It was meant to be press screened. They had booked in a week of release national press show and then at the last minute they pulled it because they didn't want critics to see it. Simon Poole, however, in his enthusiasm to step into the presenter's chair, and I have to say, Simon, he was very enthusiastic did go and see it and his one sentence review is rubbish invasion of the body snatchers verity is at number four which i enjoyed i mean it's an absolute ripe nonsense but i did enjoy it and i thought it was it was good fun and it knew its own tone jailer two is a new entry at number three again not press screened this is an indian tamil language action comedy obviously a sequel to Jailer 1.

26:30It is apparently the highest grossing Tamil film of 2026. If anyone has seen it, because as I said, they didn't show it to the press, let us know.

26:37Simon Mayo: Number 10 in America. Number 2 here is Forgotten Island. Jessica in Leicestershire, 35 is how she signs. Mark and Simon, a cautionary tale. Having ignored Mark's warnings and failed to do any proper research, I took my five-year-old daughter to see Forgotten Island yesterday. My first clue that I'd made a mistake came before the film even started when a genuinely terrifying trailer sent me scrabbling to cover her eyes. Sadly, it turned out to be an accurate preview of the next two hours. Within minutes, my daughter was climbing into my lap and I was texting my husband. Have I made a terrible mistake texting during a film?

27:17Simon Mayo: Anyway, reassuringly, whenever I offered to leave for emergency ice cream, she firmly declined. To my great relief, she emerged apparently unscarred and this morning awarded the film quote 100 out of 10. Wow she also she also believes that 100 out of 100 is higher so her scoring system remains under review. The best moment came on the drive home when she turned to me and asked mummy since you're my best friend can we get friendship bracelets and charms when we do fun things together. So despite spending much of the film worrying I'd caused lifelong psychological damage Forgotten Island may now have a permanent place in my heart.

27:56Simon Mayo: Thanks for all the witterings and joy. Jessica, thank you. P.S., she says, after 12 years of listening, am I still a short term listener or can I finally be promoted to medium? I think you're a long term listener. I think once you're over the decade, Jessica, you're a long term listener. Would that be right? I think that feels right. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, it is interesting because I was talking about this when we were reviewing it. I think it may have been even slightly trimmed to get a PG. I mean, I don't think it was cut by the BBFC, but I think maybe the distributors did.

28:28I'm not sure. But it is, as I said, there are things in it that are genuinely scary. But what I love is that your beloved child was scared, but then really, really enjoyed it. Because I think that that, I mean, I did say it's not for the youngies, but I mean, I've had marvellous experiences being scared in the cinema from when I was very, very young. I mean, going to see like Ray Harryhausen movies and stuff like that. But there are things in it that are really genuinely properly creepy. So 10, 11, 12, that kind of age? I would say so. I mean, maybe a little bit, maybe sort of 8, 9, 10. The particular child here was 5, is that right?

29:08Yes, 5-year-old daughter. Yeah, I mean, a tough kid. I mean, honestly, if you come out of that as a 5-year-old, then well done, well done. But I was thinking like 8, 9, 10, something like that, you know, that sort of age.

29:20Simon Mayo: And obviously parents know their kids best. Yes. And obviously Jessica got away with it. But in general, it sounds as though, you know, it depends on your kid, obviously, as to how they're going to react to that kind of thing. And number one here and number one there is Street Fighter. You have an email. You start. I do. Okay, Gareth in Cardiff. Dear Mark and Redactor Substitute.

29:47Simon Mayo: First time emailer, long time listener and enjoy. I saw Street Fighter with my 16-year-old son this week. We've been going to the cinema together for years, gradually turning him into an age-appropriate horror aficionado. After a run of bangers, including Weapons, Hocum, and Resident Evil, our luck finally ran out. Ran out. Street Fighter gave us terrible plotting, thin characters, baffling needle drops, unfunny dialogue, and strictly, oh, distinctly, meh fights. as a lifelong street fighter 2 fan even the easter eggs left me cold but the post-film conversation with my increasingly cine-literate son laughing over plot holes and dreadful dialogue became one of my favorite cinema experiences so bring on the good and by jove bring on the bad long live cinema in all its forms up with most things down with some things uh gareth from cardiff thank you very much indeed um and so actually the forgotten island email and the Street Fighter email, pretty similar in as much as the film might not be great, but the reaction of going with a child has actually redeemed both.

30:55Yes. I mean, Forgotten Island, I think, is really good. I do enjoy it very much, even though in America it just kept the devils out of the top 10 because it was number 10, but that's okay. I forgive it for that. But the thing with Street Fighter, I mean, I didn't enjoy Street Fighter very much. I did say I'm not familiar with the game. I was explaining, not as a principal point, but just so that everybody knows where I'm coming from. Thank you, below the liners. And I just didn't like it very much. But it is better than the previous Street Fighter movies, although a lot of people have said actually that there are other incarnations that I should check out.

31:30But I mean, the previous Street Fighter movies, it's a very, very low bar. But it did absolutely, in terms of plot, narrative, characters, score zero. and my problem is that if I don't care about the plot about the characters about the situations it is just people hitting each other and as I was talking about with the redactor last week I mean you're probably about the same age I remember really clearly on Saturday afternoon they used to have world of sport and world of sport used to have character wrestling in which people in funny masks and costumes who had names like like as I said one of them was actually called the Exorcist and then there was giant haystacks and all that stuff.

32:06And it was like half an hour of World of Sport would be these people in colourful costumes wrestling with each other. I mean, how real it was remains the question. While little old ladies in the front seat of the audience would scream and get emotional. And I would do exactly the same thing watching from the comfort of my couch. I mean, that had more narrative coherence than this did.

32:31Simon Mayo: okay Street Fighter the number one movie and a new entry it'll be interesting to see how far it falls does it fall next week do you think or is it going to hang on I think that's it I think it's open at number one and it will drop now we'll be back after these wonderful messages from lots of really top brands who will improve your life no end

32:51from the walls of Troy to the Tower of London from Himeji and Japan to the Magino line in the Second World War we've built fortifications for millennia. I'm Dan Jones and in my latest book Castles I trace 3 ,000 years of human history looking at these captivating buildings. It's an epic story of defiance, endurance and imagination. Castles the latest book from me Dan Jones available as an e-book, audiobook and in hardback at all good bookshops.

33:28Simon Mayo: Our guests this week are regular collaborators, writers and actors, Jim Howick and Lawrence Larry Rickard. The pair are part of Them There Comedy Collective with Matthew Bainton, Simon Farnaby, Martha Howe Douglas and Ben Wilbon. The group came together on Horrible Histories, went on to create Yonderland, Bill and Ghosts. And now we have Ghosts, The Possession of Button House, in which the original team back together. and again directed by Simon Hynde with Jim returning as Pat and Lawrence as Robin and also Sir Humphrey. All of this will be explained in greater detail in just a moment. You'll hear our conversation after this clip from Ghosts, The Possession of Button House.

34:13Hello little mate.

34:19You want to talk about what's going on in that head of yours? No?

34:28Some pretty cool kicks you got going on there They look like they're from America Look, I know it can be hard to talk about your feelings Especially to an old foddy-doddy like me, right? But I might surprise you Because you know what I do When the words are difficult to say I wrap them instead what's going on

34:58well in 82 I was a

35:04I've got it I've got it

35:06Simon Mayo: I thought there was going to be a big punchline at the end there wasn't my apologies that's the first time I've heard an excerpt of the film rather than the trailer played and I think we should do a radio play lads I think that's next up for us. I think if we did it as a radio play, we should probably take a little bit of the air out. Perhaps. Yeah. But that's the other pathos. Yeah. Or maybe just notice what the out cue is and then pick it up immediately. Jim and Lawrence, welcome to the programme. Can you just explain what was – we can talk about the movie more broadly, but what is happening there?

35:44Well, my character, Pat, is trying to, I suppose, connect with a teenager who has broken into the house and Julian has assumed his body in a Ouija board exercise game. And, yeah, each ghost is trying to sort of communicate with the lad because he's obviously in a sort of frightened position. And, yeah, that's Pat's attempt. And, yeah. And excruciating. Excruciating, yeah, see. Absolutely, yeah.

36:21Simon Mayo: Okay, so that's just a little clip. So obviously the TV show had a huge audience, but finished in 2023, and it was very much that was the end of things. Did you both think, did all of you, because you're part of a bigger troupe, obviously, was that really the end as far as you were concerned, or did you always think that maybe this was coming along the tracks? I think we all were quite genuine when we said it was the end. And, you know, we'd just done the final series. We'd done the backstories of the final couple of ghosts. You know, we finished with a Christmas special and it sort of felt like it had all been tied up with a bow.

37:03And there was talks of doing two more series and we sort of felt like it had come to a natural end. And I think we enjoyed making it so much. The temptation was to carry on doing it forever. But we felt the best thing for the show was to, you know, try and go out on a high. So we were sincere when we said, we think that's it. And it was, yeah, a production company, as production companies, of course, do. So I said, well, what about something else? What about something more? What about a film? And we kind of, I think we were reticent. And eventually they just said, look, get into a room together, spend the morning talking about it.

37:38And if the answer is no, then we'll stop hassling you. And we were sort of kettled into a room. And, but look, within, within sort of 20 minutes, we, we, we had a sort of kernel idea for a, for a story that we could all work on and form together. And, and all of a sudden, I think just being together after a year apart, which I think was the first time in year, in probably a decade that we hadn't worked with each other for a year. It was, we were kind of desperate to be in each other's company again, away from the work. So really, I think the work was kind of secondary to us wanting to be together again.

38:19And I think once we'd hit upon that central idea of, you know, one of them being possessed, one of the ghosts being able to get out of the grounds, we sort of got, we just got excited about it. Right.

38:29Simon Mayo: So, so with apologies to the people who are fans of the show and have listened and have watched it, you know, for years and know everything. Start again. So this is a movie. So people will be going to the movies. They might never have seen any of the episodes. yeah just introduce us to the concept and what is going on as we as we arrive at the beginning of your story what do we need to know about about ghosts who they are where they are and so on well yeah it's a big rundown country house in the middle of nowhere at the beginning of the series a young couple inherited from one of their distant relatives and it's a crumbling money trap but also more importantly for us it's haunted by a series of ghosts one of the couple allison has an accident which leaves her able to see and hear the ghosts.

39:14And that's sort of the status quo that runs us through the series. And at the end of the series, finally, the couple had a baby and decided that maybe a big old crumbling, slightly dangerous country house full of dead people isn't the best place to bring up a child. They've moved away. And the story opens literally like 100 days after that end of the series where the ghosts have sort of sunk back down into boredom and are really missing the ability to interact in some way with the outside world. And then their wishes are kind of answered and they wish they hadn't been. The ghosts themselves, their characters, they bookend the human timeline.

39:52So the earliest is a caveman and the most recent death of a ghost is 1994. So they span a whole history of attitudes and cultures. And is the 1994, is that Simon Farnaby's trouserless MP? That's right, yes. That's walking in dignity Tory MP Simon Farnaby, yeah. Right, okay.

40:18Simon Mayo: So to pick up the story then, you were all genuinely decided that everything was done and dusted and everything was tied up with a bow. You go into this room. Who is it, what is it that is said that within 20 minutes you think, actually, yes, we can do this? I think it was once we hit upon the idea of maybe, what if one of them can possess a body and that means they can do the thing we would never do in the show and would never have done in the show, which is take them outside of the world, take them outside of the grounds. In a sitcom, you want unalike people trapped together, but in a film, you want to sort of break out and paint something on a bigger canvas.

40:53So it was something that excited us, but it felt like something you would want to do in a film, but you wouldn't want to do in a TV show. So it wasn't just like we were going into something that could be a 90-minute episode of the show. It felt like it was an idea that was right to do in cinemas in a bigger form. Yeah, we quickly sort of dismissed grand ideas of sort of, we could turn this into Ghostbusters. I mean, how big could a supernatural element be within our film? And we were very careful when we made the series not to have the ghosts as sort of spectral beings. And they could walk through walls and float from time to time, but we wanted to make them as human as possible and as relatable as possible.

41:35Simon Mayo: So compare and contrast the writing for a TV show and the writing for a movie. Are you all working on it together at the same time? Does it get parceled off? Do you write your own characters? How is it possible to write a film with so many people? Yeah, the series, the film itself really was a sort of a mini version of the series in that it was a sort of an amalgamation of our sort of different sensibilities, even though we sort of share the same tone and shorthand when it comes to the writer's room and everything else. We still have sort of different tendencies in terms of sensibility. And some of us are sort of more left field, I suppose.

42:15And some of us are more sort of conventional joke tellers and things. And so it really, really helps create a sort of universal sense of our overall tone. And really the film is no different to that. it was just a bit more of a sort of sausage mincer sort of situation in that it was an hour and a half rather than four and a half hours which is a series and um and we were really kind of blending

42:38Simon Mayo: in the room how do you make it cinematic how do you make a tv show cinematic do you i mean there is a i think we could say that you know there is a high speed car chase and there's things like that which you wouldn't get in a tv show but how do you make it live on a big screen from a writing I think we were very lucky in that the situation comedy we made was cinematic in its essence anyway. We didn't have sort of, we had a regular set in terms of the house, but the house was such an amazingly grand location. And it actually gave us a sort of cinematic experience in terms of sitcom. It wasn't sort of a regular set sitcom like you sort of found in Bottom or Blackadder the Second or sitcoms that we loved that sort of remained.

43:22almost in a theatrical set. So we were very lucky in that sense. We didn't have to sort of take an enormous leap. I remember when I was a kid watching the Rising Damp movie and I was amazed when they went outside. Like that was a huge leap for me because they never left the house. And all of a sudden you sort of saw Rigsby walking down the street and I was like, hang on, this isn't Rising Damp. So for a kickoff, I think we were in a very good place. Yeah. And then when we started talking about the touchstones of, you know, particular scenes and particular elements. You know, we're all big film fans.

43:56And so the things that we were referencing and then, you know, the references we then started to talk about with the director when Simon Hine came on board, you know, they were sort of inherently cinematic. But I think also because the kind of scale and the scope of the story was bigger, we knew that we were writing something which was going to be, you know, for a cinematic release. And so we kind of felt we were slightly, you know, unconstrained constrained and we could it was a little bit of wish fulfillment we could do all of the filmy things that that we loved and and reference a lot of the things that we loved growing up and sort of try and make something that that that earned its place on a bigger canvas even in those

44:34Simon Mayo: 70s sitcoms when you're watching it as a child you know when they go outside you notice that the film quality changes yeah absolutely hang on this is all completely different you mentioned tone uh Jim, this is a question for both of you. It's a family audience. There is a great strength in keeping that family audience together, but pushing it as far as it's possible to go. Is the tone of this film, would you say, is it exactly the same as the TV? Have you been able to push it a bit further? I think for the most part, I mean, really the tone only kind of changed in the sitcom when we, the times that we revealed each ghost's death.

45:11I mean, there were a couple of ghosts whose deaths were particularly violent. And one of them in particular was so violent that we couldn't actually explain it or really show it in any sort of detail. We just sort of, you know, it was the prelude to it. But I think overall, it's pretty much exactly the same tone. We haven't sort of made it any more kind of childish or any more adult. It was really the tone was set by what makes us laugh, really what appeals to us. just like the shows I mentioned before the shows that we used to love when we were growing up you know they weren't sort of tailored for kids or anything it just so happened that the function of tv in them days was sort of almost theatrical and and everyone would gather around and watch it together because there wasn't another chance to watch it so we what really appealed to us was to make a show that was universal in in a sort of theatrical sense this is for everyone to sit down and enjoy at the same time.

46:07Yeah, that sort of sets the tone for us.

46:10Simon Mayo: Partial buttock nudity included, Lauren. Well, yeah, it's alluded to. It's not alluded to. It's there. I mean, it's very partial. I think the sound effects do an awful lot of work for us in that sequence. All right, okay. So it's in the cinemas. It's out this week. I know you've been asked this a thousand times but as you were writing it and as you were filming it and as you've gone to the launch and as you're doing this promo presumably you are moving on again or if this is a number one movie maybe the ghosts will be back I mean we don't know there's certainly nothing that we're sort of hiding under our hats and sort of gently alluding to I think we've done And by that one year when we finished the TV series, we've done something together for the past, you know, like 17 years.

47:04And we loved being in each other's company. And it always feels like there's a tone to the comedy that we come up with when it's the six of us together, which is different to what it is when we're working individually. So I think, you know, we're all up for doing something else. We don't know what that is yet. Yeah, I mean, obviously, films, as they always are, once it's out there in the world, it's in the lap of the gods. It feels like this is us tying it all up with a bow in terms of ghosts. But we've said this is absolutely it before. So we're really wary of saying it again and people going, now hang on.

47:43But hopefully there will be something more from us as a gang. Jim? I feel like we would just miss each other too much if we didn't do something else. but as Larry says there's nothing really specifically in the pipe we've talked about ideas away from ghosts and we've you know nothing has sort of materialised yet but who knows I'm sure if this does well we'll be kettled into a room again

48:11Simon Mayo: the movie is Ghosts the Possession of Buttonhouse Jim and Lawrence thank you very much indeed for your time all the best to you thank you so much Jim Howick and Lawrence Ricard two of the stars of the new uh ghosts movie uh which is out and uh mark i guess a lot depends on so i was trying to give the interview for people who who know the tv show very well because it's been fantastically successful and those who haven't seen it and i'm one i've seen a couple of episodes but really my kids are the wrong age so yes we never really tapped into it yeah so uh how did how did you come to ghost the possession of button house as someone who's familiar or not familiar no completely unfamiliar firstly a lovely interview that was it was really nice it sounded very very genial um i went into this not having not having any knowledge of the of the series at all i know that the redactor and his family are very very very big fans of it in fact before we started doing this program he furnished us with photographs of the house and the place and the you know which his fam have have done visits and everything so it is absolutely much loved by those who know and love it and weirdly enough in in my case i went into um to a screening and actually and it is it is to do with your age and the age of your kids a large number of the critics who were in there were very familiar with the with the series and there was also a couple of people like me who weren't at all and the thing that everyone says and it has to be said this is true the film makes no accommodation for that it's just like get up to speed there's no point in which they do the thing about standing around and explaining what is going on it's like get up to speed the whole thing about the disgraced tory mp not having any trousers is never for example explained that's something that you have to know why it is that he doesn't have trousers i mean you can fill in the blanks but it's like it is definitely one of those things and this is a weird comparison but it's a bit like Twin Peaks Firewalk with me.

50:13We're not going to waste any time explaining what's going on. So the question is, does it work for the audience that know it? And does it work for the audience that don't? So the first thing that I did was I spoke after the screening to a few people who I knew, knew the series. And I just asked them, you know, tonally, is it the same as the series? Absolutely. It is like the series. It's absolutely got the tone of the series. Yes, I mean, it's cinematic and it's a wider canvas. But the tone of the humour and the jokes is absolutely that of the series. And it was funny, as you brought up, you know, sort of slightly edgy, slightly rude.

50:50What did you call it? Brief buttock nudity or whatever. Yeah, I mean, you know. But very, very fleeting. And as they say, they're absolutely right. The sound effects are doing most of the heavy lifting. As far as somebody who, so if you're a fan of the show and you're up to speed with it all and you want the show in a movie form, this is doing exactly that. And smart move, yes, don't send them on holiday. Don't do holiday on the buses or any of that stuff. The central device about, oh, we have a seance, we get into the other bodies, that enables us to get out of the house. It also does something else, which is that it enables, because it's a group of young people into whose bodies they go, and when we see the young people we either see them as the animated bodies of the young people or we see them as the older characters that they are so it's doing a kind of body swap thing so it's doing a sort of freaky friday thing it's doing a you know or a big thing you know it's the it's the the adult in the child's body or the child in the adult body it's doing all those things that the movies have done for a long time so that device it's not just a way of not getting holiday on the buses.

52:03It is also a way of enabling it to be a body swap coming of age thing at the same time, all of which works very well. Having gone in knowing nothing about it, I have to say that I think I missed the amount of affection that people clearly have for the characters. Because you know, sometimes when you're in a screening room, you can feel people being thrilled about the appearance of characters. You can feel, oh, here we are. I know where we are. I know I I love these characters. And I didn't feel that because I didn't know them and I didn't know the setup and I didn't know the stuff. And I did feel, okay, not knowing it, I kind of feel like I need to know it.

52:43I kind of feel like in order to appreciate it more, I actually need to have watched the series. I need to at least have some grounding in it. And clearly a huge number of people will have that. But the fact is, you know, they're smart. They're funny. They know how to make these gags work because they've been doing them for a long time and they they know how to do that kind of poignant thing about well on the one hand it's it's funny but on the other hand there's a kind of melancholia underneath it and the mechanics of how they expand it out into a a longer episode it was funny that you know it's an hour and a half as opposed to a series which is four and a half hours long so actually weirdly although it feels like an expansion it is in practical senses a contraction so i think the end result is if you don't know the series as i didn't it's fun it's fine it's you know it's perfectly fine if you do know the series it is clearly tapping straight back into exactly the thing that the series was delivering and the affection that you feel for the series will absolutely spill over into the film itself and again i stress that is the response of somebody who knew nothing at all about the series and did find at the beginning that they were going okay hang on hang on why hasn't he got any trousers on yeah so

54:01Simon Mayo: watch a couple of shows maybe before you go or just get some kind of primer but ghost the possession of button house uh is the movie let us know what you think and while we're already chortling so you know there's a smile on your face already let's get rid of that with the laughter

54:20No,

54:22Simon Mayo: stop that. Mark, what do you call a high-end patisserie with a rich and tender crumb that has won an Academy Award, a BAFTA Award and a César Award? I don't know. What do you call a high-end patisserie with a rich and tender crumb that has won a BAFTA, a thingy and a César? Juliette Brioche. good lord and mark what do you call an english director producer and screenwriter who also keeps you cozy and warm um old parker you're absolutely right and mark did i ever tell you about clearly all the comedy was used up last week it was yeah did i ever tell you about the time when i took child two into a radio two for take your daughter to work day no she was about six at the time, started sobbing immediately.

55:14Simon Mayo: All the top brass gathered around in their powdered wigs. What's the matter with child two? What can it be? Why are you so upset? They asked. Daddy, she sobbed. Where are all the clowns you said you work with? Okay, well, you see, here's what I think happened. I think that Hall deliberately wrote himself better jokes when he was doing it last week, and he's now set you up so that people will write in and go, can we have the redactor back? He was so much funnier in the laughter lift. So I think that what you need to do is for next week, you need to get Child 3 to write all the jokes. Okay, that might be a good idea.

55:52Simon Mayo: That makes him sound very manipulative and deceitful. It does, doesn't it? It does. I'm going to take note of that. Still to come, Mark's going to review Clayface and Fatherland. And in take two, we'll have more questions. And this week, we're asked about which film would be improved by removing one character entirely. Just search Komen O'Mo Patreon and join us over there. You can get both takes ad-free, plus our exclusive fortnightly extra show, Take Ultra.

56:26OK,

56:33Simon Mayo: here's an email. Please send yours to correspondentsatkoveno.com from Jonathan Faulkner. Thank you, Jonathan. Dear Collignon and Dominique, I hope my email finds the doctors in fine fettle and in no acute need of comfort. If, however, that need should arise, I would like to add my two penneths to the comfort film blanket discussion, or two cents, if you will. Fittingly, on its 25th anniversary, I would like to recommend the utterly enchanting Amélie, Le Fabre d 'Estaing d 'Amélie Poulain, A beautiful and life-affirming piece of cinema that provides its own quintessential comfort. Tickety-tonk and down with pustulent plutocrats, which is good.

57:17Simon Mayo: So what's this comfort film thing? Is this one of last week's things? Yeah, well, you and I sort of talked about it in the movie Doctors. You know, which films are an absolute comfort blanket? Which films do you turn to in times of need, in times of distress? Yes. Amelie has just celebrated its 25th anniversary and it had a reissue as a result of it. We were talking about it a little while ago. And it is certainly one of those films that people who love it, really love it. And the cafe where it's set is like a place of pilgrimage. People go there and have their photographs taken outside it because they love Amelie so much.

57:56I mean, it's like, for me, it's Mary Poppins or Silent Running or Jeremy or something like that. but I mean what your comfort viewing what would it be the thing that you literally put around you

58:04Simon Mayo: like a you know like a like a dressing gown uh I think if I it would probably be local hero I think okay yeah which is a brilliant choice also this and also the soundtrack is so amazing as well so I think it works on on a number of on a number of levels I think that's probably what I do yeah no local hero is a very very good choice um let us know uh if you want to chip in on this or have you're too penneth to use a very contemporary uh phrase what uh what else is out there what might be confused for a robert harris based book yeah although not by me so fatherland which is the new film from polish filmmaker paul pawlikoski whose works include ida which won i think it won the oscar for best foreign language film and cold war which he was nominated um so this follows um This is the third installment in a trilogy of historical films.

59:03It's co-written with Hendrik Handlukten and stars Hans Ischler and Sandra Huller. Now, I love Sandra Huller. I have loved Sandra Huller ever since the days of Requiem, years and years ago, which I just thought she was brilliant in. They play Nobel Laureate, Literal Laureate Thomas Mann and his daughter, the actress and writer Erica Mann. The film is set in 1949, finds Thomas and Erika taking a trip to Frankfurt, where he is going to receive the Goethe Prize. Goethe was born there. But he's also been invited to Weimar, where Goethe lived, to receive a second prize. Now, for Thomas, borders, current borders have no meaning.

59:45They cannot fence in Goethe's work. Yet for everyone else, they are altogether very real. The trips are fraught because on arriving in West Germany, he has sent anonymous letters accusing him of betraying the fatherland which he left in the 30s for America. Also being told that if he visits East Germany, he'll be ostracized by the America that he now calls home. Meanwhile, Erica's brother, Klaus, who is a writer and anti-fascist activist, has been calling his sister in various states of despair, even as she tries to persuade him to join them on this road trip. So she says it's going to be like a homecoming.

1:00:28But the overwhelming feeling of the film is that no one has a home anymore, that they are all in a state of perpetual homelessness. I'm going to play you a clip from the film in which you'll just get a sense of the tone of it. The clip obviously is not in English. I'm going to translate for you in advance. This is what happens. Firstly, you hear the brother saying, why did he agree to this trip? What's the point? Then you hear Erica saying it could be his last journey. Then they arrive at a checkpoint. She says, this is Thomas Mann, the writer. Then you hear kids chanting, we salute our Thomas Mann.

1:00:58The last line, which is actually delivered in English, which you can understand anywhere, anyway, is her saying, this whole trip was a terrible idea. Roll the clip.

1:01:07Simon Mayo: Tell me, why did he actually set this trip? What does it bring?

1:01:15Simon Mayo: It's maybe a last trip.

1:01:23We're doing music. This is Thomas Mann, the writer.

1:01:40That's all true. It was a terrible idea. That last line, as I said, in English. So this premiered in Cannes, where Pawtkowski won Best Director. And like its predecessors, it's Black and White, shot by Lukasz Jarl. I think that's how you pronounce the name. forgive me for my terrible Polish pronunciations, in Academy Ratio, which is this format which once again kind of highlights the sort of stark loneliness of the proceedings. I mean, it's a story about people in quiet torment, people who often appear to be sort of stupefied by the position in which they find themselves. It is a film about children living in the shadow of a parent whose reputation hangs over them like a cloud, which is actually quite interesting because I've been listening to the Michael Douglas autobiography, And he talks a lot about growing up in the shadow of Kirk Douglas.

1:02:29Is it good? We'll get to that later on when we do the one last thing. But yes, the whole thing about the son is, Klaus is much more overtly political than his father, who seems to want to exist in this kind of elevated state above political boundaries. And the son is angry and the father is kind of weirdly emotionless. And then Erica has this relationship, this old relationship with this character, who was then close to goring and who attempts to engage her in conversation at a dinner party and she winds up slapping his face and the whole thing is about all these sort of buried issues that are sort of hidden behind polite behavior and and smiles even when real tragedy raises its face uh raises its head and i mean i think it's i mean i'm a really big fan of this director the main the main thing that you get is characters sifting through the rubble of something.

1:03:24Like it's not just the buildings that have been decimated. It's the idea that the whole idea of the Germany to which Thomas declares allegiance has disappeared. It's been destroyed by war and riddled with guilt and carved up by the post-war world. And I thought it was really poignant, really kind of profound. weighty despite the fact that it's incredibly short running time i mean it's just over 80 minutes and you know a good a good five or six of those minutes are the credit and it i think it will leave you with the feeling that whilst whilst there might yet be redemption in the world yet it will have to dig itself out from under a mound of sadness and the reason i i'm i'm so impressed by it is that it manages to do all this without ever looking like it's doing all this i mean i'm very aware that when i'm talking about it i'm describing it as if it is an issue film and it isn't i mean it is because all those things are raised the issues of history the issues of art the issues of uh you know parents and children and guilt and grief but it never feels like that what it feels like is spending time with these characters the same way that actually weirdly with the genie finley documentary you feel like you are spending time with fully rounded three-dimensional characters and i thought it was it was really impressive particularly for a film that is so fleeting in its running time to have packed so much of an emotional wallop so i would recommend people go and see it's called fatherland are we going to struggle to find it do you think no i mean it'll it'll because it it's you know it's got lots of accolades and very very good reviews it will be playing on wherever it is that you go to see your local art house you know cinemas and incidentally if you have the choice of seeing this at your local independent cinema or at a multiplex go and see it at your local independent cinema because this is exactly the kind of film that absolutely props up independent cinema so as well as our four reviews this week

1:05:24Simon Mayo: such good value we have four what's ons so we're going to do them back to back in the interest of time kicking off on the kentish coast hello it's larishka from deal by the seaside here in kent We may be a small town without a cinema, but that's not stopping us from holding the fifth Deal Film Festival from the 23rd to the 26th of October. Our theme is the incredible film talent associated with the town and highlights this year include guest appearances by Brenda Blethyn and Oscar winning costume designer Sandy Powell. Live music from Richard Bundy and Anna Phoebe. We even have a northern soulmate.

1:05:59Come and find out more. Hi Simon and Mark. I run a video shop in Bristol called 20th Century Flicks and each year around this time I help put on a horror film festival called The Big Scream at an old abandoned IMAX. Last year we did an exploitation two-nighter called Six Feet Down Under and this year to mark the passing of 10 years since Brexit we are doing three nights of Euro slasher movies called European Slaycation. We're showing Blood and Black Lace, Deep Red, Baby Blood, Paul Verhoeven's The Fourth Man, Stage Fright, The Strange Vice of Mrs Ward and the UK premiere of a 4K restoration of Who Can Kill a Child.

1:06:34It's October the 22nd to 25th and you're both very welcome to come along, although admittedly it's not for the faint of heart. Hi Simon and Mark, it's Gareth James from Emmanuel Evangelical Church in Newport. We're celebrating our 160th anniversary with a special screening of a mystery family movie about the life of Jesus. I can't reveal the title, but everyone is welcome. It's completely free and there'll be plenty of free popcorn. Join us at 3.30 on Saturday the 24th of October at Emanuel Church, Pilgrim Wendley in Newport. Louise Pankhurst here, organiser of London's Home Movie Day. This year's event will again be held at the Brilliant Cinema Museum in Kennington and it's a family-friendly free event for anyone who loves film and particularly for those who have home movie collections held on 8mm, 9.5 or 16mm Our archivists will inspect them for shrinkage and damaged perforations but if all okay, we'll project them Also at 1pm we'll be showing some wonderful home movies from the 1970s Plus we'll be taking a trip down advertising Memory Lane That's the 24th of October at the Cinema Museum And remember, you don't need to bring a film to participate in the day's activities

1:07:54Simon Mayo: OK, so thanks everyone for the videos So that was London's Home Movie Day at the Cinema Museum, 24th of October Save the Cinema Museum, wonderful venue so now let's talk about uh beauty products which you can put on your face at night and you emerge a whole lot more beautiful afterwards this is called clay face clay face so firstly the stuff that i don't really know or understand and know about or understand so third film in the dc universe soft reboot of a previous franchise the dc extended universe blah blah blah blah blah continuity i don't really understand any of that stuff what i do understand is that directed by James Watkins, who as helming CV includes Eden Lake, which is really nasty and terrifying, Woman in Black, scaring everybody with its 12A certificate, Speak No Evil, and Episodes of Black Mirror.

1:08:41He also wrote My Little Light, which is a horror film from Welsh director Mark Evans. Now, you'll remember Mark Evans' most recent feature was the Welsh language Effie O 'Blino, which I absolutely loved and that starred tom reese harrys who stars here in this film as actor matt hagan who gets on the wrong side of a vicious mobster and ends up having his face disfigured by the by the mobsters hoodlums naomi aki who is absolutely brilliant in everything um is dr caitlin core she is a scientist working on a formula exactly what you're talking about the kind of beautify formula that can regenerate cells, can cause cells to regenerate themselves.

1:09:23And their paths cross when she treats Matt's disfigured face, but he effectively overdoses the amount of treatment that he is getting. And his face heals, but as with all superheroes, it does something more. It turns his skin into like a clay-like substance that can melt and transform. form. It's an ability that he learns can be controlled or triggered by his emotional state. When he's in control, he can wreak vengeance on those who wronged him by changing his face. When he's out of control, things get really, really ugly. Meanwhile, the doctor is dating a cop, John Borelli, played by Max Minghella, who is investigating the murders that ensue in the wake of all of this.

1:10:14Here is a clip from the trailer. What do you want, Mr. Higgins? I want my life back. I know you. You're famous.

1:10:29Simon Mayo: It's a tragedy what they did to him. Boo! I'd like to volunteer for human trials. This isn't cosmetic surgery. and even if it kills me I'll be better off than I am now except maybe he won't so the original script for this was written by guess who Mike Flanagan no no no no no but actually but well done yes it should have been Jack Flanagan yeah Mike Flanagan Midnight Mass you know live chat carry exorcist martyrs coming up who was impressed by the Batman animated series two-parter feet of clay, apparently, and wanted to make a standalone movie that was, quote, a horror-leaning thriller tragedy.

1:11:18So he was originally involved, but then he went off to make Exorcist Martyrs, which we were talking about last week because the trailer for it has dropped. And I said the most interesting thing with that is that they've asked Mike Flanagan to do an Exorcist sequel. And brilliantly, he's making a sequel to Exorcist 3. So that's just, hooray, good for you. So he went off to do that. And then the project came to James Watkins, who had worked with Hossein Amini, the writer, on McMafia. And the script was then sort of fairly substantially rewritten, as far as I understand, but obviously, I said, originally by Mike Flanagan.

1:11:51To do the music, guess who? Jack Thorne. No, but you're close. Volker Bettelman, who appears to now be scoring every single movie ever made by anyone ever. He's good. He's good, and he's very, very busy. His dance card is firmly ticked. So this ended up costing something like, was it like 30 million, 30, 40, something like that, which for a DC movie is not a big budget. And it is, I didn't see it as, I mean, in fact, I don't think I even knew before I went in that that's what it was. I just, I've seen a poster. I'd seen a Japanese poster for Clayface and it looked to me, it was somebody pulling his hand down over his face and his face melting.

1:12:35and it looked to me like a brian yusner type body horror and actually it is much closer in style to the body horror of yusner or for example more recently films like the substance than it is to a superhero movie and i think at the time of we're all suffering from superhero fatigue it is it is a smart idea to put to make a film like this that is positioned in that horror tradition that horror tragedy tradition that mike flanagan was talking about you know like obsession and back rooms are the kind of films that people are interested in now i'm not sure that people are thinking yeah wow we absolutely needed and i mean i knew nothing about the clay face character at all because i'm not a comics aficionado once again i'm not saying that to distance myself from comic aficionados i'm saying it to to admit to an ignorance so it's rated r in america um which obviously usually the you know the big the big superhero hits are usually pg-13 here god bless it it's an 18 and um you know so it's a it's an 18 rated superhero movie although it's not as i said not a superhero movie and i did an i did an on stage with uh james watkins which was really interesting so i was told in advance by the film company that i wasn't allowed to say that i'd seen the film because the embargo hadn't lifted and i said well i can't not say i've seen the film he said okay but just don't review it i said well so can i so i had this conversation um in which i wasn't allowed to say that I had enjoyed the film very much because obviously I had because it's right in my wheelhouse I mean we talked about comparisons with Cronenberg's The Fly which is a lot of in there um Brian Yusner's Society which there is a lot of in there um one of the things that James Watkins was saying was that he wanted the effects to have heft you know to have weight and so although there is a you know ton of CG they were working with physical makeup when they were doing the stuff.

1:14:26And this has got a very nicely squishy, rubbery feel to it. I mean, there are some genuinely wince inducing moments. If you've seen the trailer, there is a moment in the trailer involving an airplane toilet, an eyeball and a pair of scissors. And that's just in the trailer. I mean, that's not, yeah, that's not, yeah, it's, it's definitely kind of wincey wincey. And it really helps that the two central characters are played by people who are, I think, really fine actors. I think Tom Reese Harris and Naomi Aki are both terrific. And what they do is that they make it a character drama. It's a character drama.

1:15:05It's got all this other stuff going on. I mean, Naomi Aki is already a star. I think that Tom Reese Harris is going to be a huge star. I mean, I think he's really got an amazing career ahead of him. There are touches of Sam Raimi's Darkman, that whole kind of loss of face theme and the way in which, I mean, it's also you get this in The Invisible Man, the way in which if somebody loses their face, they also lose their moral compass, which I think is a really interesting thing, which also, I think, piles over into the internet age of what happens when people are allowed to do things anonymously.

1:15:37And the answer is it brings out the worst in people. When you don't have a face or identity or a visage, what happens is you lose any sense of responsibility. Also, I mean, as is the way with all of these things, there is a credibility issues later on because the whole thing that he can change his face is fine. As the movie goes on, there's more and more that gets involved in that. And there's points which you go, okay, hang on, that doesn't make any sense. That said, the liberties that they take that don't make sense actually enable a terrific identity swapping sequence in a nightclub that really, really plays well.

1:16:15And it's one of those cases in which I think, okay, fine. Listen, you've made that sequence so entertaining. You made it make so much fun that I'm going to forgive you for the fact that that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's kind of, it's, you know, sometimes you just decide I'm going with this. I'm going to go with this because it's got a kind of brio to it. It's got a sense of joie de vivre. The other thing is that I think that James Watkins as a director, he, I mean, he knows how to do, you know, nerve jangling set pieces, but he also understands that nothing hurts unless the characters are people that you believe it.

1:16:47And this is what I was saying earlier on when we were talking about the Street Fighter movie. I don't know who these people are. I don't care who these people are. I don't know about the narrative. I don't care about the narrative. In the case of this, I do care about these central characters. And the fact that as somebody who grew up watching Videodrome, watching The Fly, watching Brian Yusner's Society, recently loving Substance and incidentally thinking that all that stuff is great because it's fleshy metaphors. It's, you know, long live the new flesh. It's David Cronenberg. I was really, I really liked the fact that for me, this didn't come from any kind of superhero universe.

1:17:26It came from that universe. Now, how that will play with people who are familiar with the source material and familiar with the wider DC universe, I have no idea. But for me, as the kid with the VHS of Videodrome, I really enjoyed it.

1:17:45Simon Mayo: correspondence at kevinamore.com just before we're done an email from andy who says uh long-term list the second time emailer i'm a bit behind on the pod so while not exactly topical this will give you a chance to plug your bristol live show christmas extravaganza so maybe it has a chance of being read out as you can tell andy we're kind of cheap like that i have just listened to the episode where Mark enjoyed listing obscure Bristol adjacent place names. Imagine my excitement on hearing the ridiculously named place I lived in for most of my childhood, which is called Ball's Green. I thought you'd be, and this is important, it's Ball apostrophe S green.

1:18:27Simon Mayo: That's right. So it's the green that belongs to the ball. To the ball. I thought you'd be amused to know that someone very much in the style of a cheeky minion, I think it might've been my younger brother, used to write the words are your in front of the place name on the sign hey much to my father's consternation and our teenage delight my dad in general has a decent sense of humor but i suspect his inner pedant was annoyed by the grammatical error this created with ball apostrophe s and so on are your balls green from that point of view didn't work from our point of view it was brilliantly silly and still makes me chuckle after all these years love the show steve uh thanks to you both for your good humor and company throughout the years uh that there was an old joke about back in soviet union days about the about the soviet leader who was called and they said oh yeah that's his first name was may your balls with her andropov that's right that was

1:19:31Simon Mayo: a good Soviet era gag I think for the older listener so we will see you in Bristol on December the 6th Andy along with all the other are your balls greenians who will doubtless turn up in droves that is it for this week a Sony Music Entertainment production this has been this team this week's team Dom, Eric, Josh, Heather and Avi the redactor was Simon Poole back in his box In take two, we're directing you to the Overflow Car Park for more chat about current film releases, giving you some film viewing suggestions related to one of this week's new releases, which is Ghosts. And don't forget, we're in Bristol in December, which I've mentioned enough times and now I feel kind of debased.

1:20:12Simon Mayo: Mark, what is your film of the week? Clayface. Okay, so next week we have... No! No? No! What is your film of the week? all rivers spill their stories to the sea and i'm very pointed about this clayface is going to do what it does um it you know fatherland's got you know great stuff behind it all rivers spill their stories to the sea is the kind of movie that i want to really really get behind because i think it's really important so my film of the week is all rivers spill their stories to the sea on the subject of balls green do you remember the song that everyone used to sing in the playground which went, do your balls hang low?

1:20:49Can you swing them to and fro? Can you tie them in a knot? Can you tie them in a bow? Do you get a funny feeling when you bounce them on the ceiling? Do your balls.

1:21:04Simon Mayo: Next week, we'll have the one and only Ashton Walters in the studio with us. He'll be talking about his directorial debut, Animal. Tell me how excited you are for that, Mark. You've got 21... I'm really excited. I'm really excited. You've got 21... Don't talk over the gag. Sorry. You've got 21 seconds. I don't understand why I've got 21 seconds. So solid crew. Never mind. It's pop music. Okay. I met him at Customs in Berlin. He was nice. It says here, Mark Flounders, we fade down. That's exactly what we're going to do.