Behind the Headlines: Child Protection, Legal Leadership & Making a Difference - Amy Clowrey - S9E31

0:00Nothing happens if nothing happens. At that time that I wanted to be a child abuse lawyer, the women I represented who had significant mental health issues, oftentimes that was as a result of them being abused as children and then their children were taken away from them. Thankfully, Switalskis did have a child abuse team, so I made a beeline to come back here when I qualified and I've been here ever since. So for me, all of the work that I'm doing, there's a bigger picture to it and there's hopefully some change going to occur as a result of it. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Amy Clowry.

0:33Amy is a solicitor and the director of child compensation team at Swatowski's. She is the firm's training principal responsible for qualifying solicitors, solicitor apprentices, and graduate solicitor apprentices. Amy was awarded Lawyer of the Year at the Modern Law Awards 2023 and Rising Star Legal 500 Northern Powerhouse Awards 2024. She is passionate about encouraging and supporting the next generation of lawyers into the profession. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Amy. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we get into your amazing career and all the great things you're doing in and around the world of legal, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law if you've seen it?

1:25Well, in my experience, Suits is a little bit sexier than life in the law here, but I can't speak for every law firm. But I would say I'd give it a five out of 10 to be diplomatic. Yeah, and that's what I've given it before. And I think that's a very valid five. And with that, we'll move swiftly on to talk all about you. So to begin with, Amy, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? Yeah, so I am a child abuse lawyer and I work for a large law firm called Switalskis. We're based in predominantly in Yorkshire, but we are a national firm. We've got about 400 employees and I joined Switalskis nearly 10 years ago.

2:06So I'm coming up to my 10th anniversary. And actually, I was seconded here during my training contract. So I feel like I've been here for forever now. But my legal journey started, I think, when I was probably about 14 or 15. And that's when I made the decision that I wanted to be a lawyer. And that predominantly stemmed from, I think, my mum and dad getting divorced and me wanting to understand the process. And that sort of piqued my interest. And then my dad would always say to me that I ask why a lot and that I'd make a good lawyer. So I looked into it and I thought, you know what, I think I would.

2:43So I went for it and didn't study law at a level because I was advised not to. And I was told that a lot of the universities prefer it if you've got a clean slate. I'm not sure how true that is, but that's what I did. And then I went to Huddersfield University because at the time there was only two universities in England that offered the combined undergraduate law degree and legal practice course. and that meant that I could get student finance for the whole of the course which to me was perfect because I couldn't really afford you know I didn't have savings like that and I didn't really want to get a bank loan so I opted for Huddersfield because it was closest to home and I had a great experience there and during my second year of university the university had a like a summer program where you could apply to a law firm as an intern so I did that managed to get a local internship and stayed there during the summer at the on the last day I knocked on the boss's door and said can I come back for free and he said no you can't but you can come back and I'll pay you so during university I worked there every hour that I wasn't working on my studies and then it was a given that I'd got a job at the end of it so that was brilliant I then started my training there and it was a high street firm but they didn't do every area of law so I was seconded to Switelsky's solicitors into their child care team.

4:10I had a brilliant time. I really enjoyed it. But I knew it wasn't the area for me because it sounds ridiculous doing the area of law that I work in now. But I found it too emotive. It was too emotional for me. I'd go home, I'd be thinking about the children being taken away from the parents. And I just found it too tough. So I decided at that time that I wanted to be a child abuse lawyer because I noticed that of the women I represented who had significant mental health issues oftentimes that was as a result of them being abused as children and then their children were taken away from them and I thought that's that's what I want to do um thankfully Switalski's did have a child abuse team so I made a beeline to come back here when I qualified and I've been here ever since and I'm I love my job and you're doing so fantastically well and I think there's a really good lesson in there as well for all aspiring lawyers or people looking to come into the profession or just generally if you if you don't ask the question the answer is always no and like you said at that time asking for that opportunity and actually no I'll come back and I'll pay you I think is you know sometimes being brave enough to put yourself out there and just ask questions is really really important so let's fast forward then to the present day you sort of touched on what inspired you from a personal circumstance to get into the area of law that you're in but tell us more about your day-to-day role and what that involves?

5:31Well it's quite varied now because I'm a director as well as a solicitor within the team so I do lots and lots of managerial stuff. I'm the training principal for the firm and we've got I think in the region of about 17 trainees and apprentices at the moment so that keeps me really busy and I get involved in all of that. I'm also part of the AI committee so I get involved in that. Outside of work, I'm on the Law Society Council for Yorkshire and Humberside and the Yorkshire Union Law Society, so I do quite a bit outside of work as well. And sometimes that overlaps into my day job, so I quite like the variety of it.

6:11It keeps me sane. But generally, I think at the moment, I'd say my life is incredibly busy because there's been a lot in the press recently over recent months about child sexual exploitation so I've been doing a lot of media work and lots of new inquiries and just trying to manage that caseload but when life is a bit more calm generally the type of work that I do does mean that I am behind my desk I tend to be the one that's supporting clients and you know dealing with their police complaints, dealing with complaints to the council, hand-holding them through criminal trials, and generally trying to represent them as best they can through the civil courts as well.

6:56So it's a really on-hands approach that I have, and lots and lots of face-to-face work. Yeah, and you're fantastic at what you do, testament to obviously everything you've achieved and you're doing and the progression that you've received. I think what, from my perspective of of sort of recruiting for various law firms over the years, the approach to clients is so important for you as a legal professional. And your approach is about building a professional relationship with your clients at their own pace. So can you talk us through the relationship building process you tend to adopt? The kind of work that I do is really personal to an individual.

7:34And often it's not about you being the best lawyer for the job. It's about you being somebody that they can feel that they can have a relationship with and confide in. So a bit like the therapist patient relationship, sometimes there's a clash of personalities and you just don't get on. And I think I take that approach into my work. And I often at the beginning of a case before I've even taken a client on, I'll say this is about you liking me and the way that I work. And if that's not the right fit, then please let me know because there are other people in our team that I can refer you on to. Or alternatively, if another law firm is a better fit for you, then that's absolutely fine.

8:11And I take that approach generally through throughout the case and try not to put too much pressure on. You know, I wait for the client to contact me in terms of, you know, obtaining instructions. And when I'm providing, when I'm looking to take their statement, that can sometimes take months and months and months because they just need to do it at a snail's pace or sometimes there are other things that are going on in their life which makes it too difficult for them to engage with me at certain points and I just have to be really understanding of that and let them come to me and the other thing is with this type of work is that trust can be lost very very quickly so all of the people that I represent have been let down by people in positions of authority and positions of power and they see lawyers as the same as that.

9:04So building a relationship can be quite slow. But then if you don't say you're going to call when you've said you will, or you don't do something that you've said you're going to, you can very quickly lose that trust. So it's just making sure that you're 100 % in for them and they can call you for whatever they need, essentially, and recognise. But also recognising, I think, that it is a really difficult area of law. So you have to be really mindful of your own mental health and sometimes you know you do have to say I can't do this today for whatever reason and I find it quite helpful to to know when I'm going to have those difficult calls so that I can prepare for when I'm taking a witness statement and I think having an understanding of your own mental health and having an understanding of how vicarious trauma can impact your your working life is really important because then you can best represent your clients.

9:57yeah and again thank you for being so um in-depth and authentic in your answer and i think that comes out of that for me is is being human right it's that human to human connection with your clients and understanding their situation not obviously as a legal professional but you know maybe they may need to go at a certain pace or it might need to be at this point in time and you're actually connecting and i always talk about it's no longer b2b b2c it's h2h it's human to human connection in the world of service delivery now that people are craving and you're obviously doing a tremendous job of that.

10:23You leaned into a few things before, but one of the things we talk a lot about on the show is about inspiring minds of the future and transforming people's future. And you're mentioning around protecting your health and certain things. You may want to build on that. But my next question is around, you've had rapid career progression. As you mentioned, you have a dual role now in terms of solicitor and director. You've progressed very well. What's the difference between a good lawyer and a great lawyer in your area? I think it goes back to the same thing. I think it's about being human. You can be a really great technical lawyer, but quite often those individuals don't end up as directors because they're not as great with being human and being somebody that some people can approach within the firm.

11:11So I think it's about that and it's about thinking outside the box and using your initiative. I think it's clear that you're very good at doing that. And is it possible for you to share one of your most memorable cases you've worked on? Or if not, one that perhaps, you know, stuck with you and you would like to share? Yeah. So for me, I think the most memorable case is one that is actually being in the press. And she is a brilliant, brilliant woman. She's referred to as Erin, so I'll call her that during this conversation. And she was really badly let down by the authorities in West Yorkshire.

11:54But it wasn't just the police and the local authority. It was the NHS. It was the independent children's home she was placed in. and that case took I think seven six or seven years for me to deal with and it was really tough because she had quite difficult um difficult time you know at home um there was an ongoing trial and it was a lot of handholding for a real long period of time and we've got to the end of the case and not only have we secured settlement from all of the various defendants that sued but also she's she's going on to do speaking um and you know she's been involved in training other professionals so she's been involved in training barristers about how to cross-examine um survivors in court uh during sort of you know significant um trials where there's a number of defendants and and i think that is phenomenal very shortly we're going to be meeting with the local council to talk about how she can get involved with helping young people in the area.

13:00Next month, we've got a meeting with the police to talk about how her ideas and her thoughts for building better relationships and better protecting children in West Yorkshire. And I think that she's going to go on to be a real powerhouse. And it makes me really proud. So it's not necessarily just about the case. It's about the aftermath of it and what that case has led her to go on to do. And I just think she's brilliant. I just think she's going to go on to do incredible things. And it must be wonderful for you to see. You probably get a lot of intrinsic value from that as well. And, you know, like you say, and then the impact they're going on to give following their experiences.

13:42And again, thank you for sharing that. I want to talk about sort of high profile cases referring to Lambeth, because you lead the firm's work regarding the Lambeth Children's Home Redress Scheme, so representing, I think, 25 % of applicants on this scheme. Can you tell us more about the particular scheme and what did you learn from representing those particular applicants? Yeah, so the Lambeth Children's Home Redress Scheme was one of the first schemes of its type in England. It was one of the best ways for redress that I've seen because the damages that individuals received was not minimal. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't pennies.

14:22It was something that could change their lives. And I thought that was really great by that local council. They also received a letter of apology as well, which meant quite a lot to a number of them. And there was opportunity for counselling and whatnot as well. That case or those cases were really quite harrowing. And it was the first time I'd seen such widespread institutional abuse and, you know, significant people in significant places of authority that and their names coming up time and time again. And I thought I thought the work we did in relation to representing those those individuals was was good.

15:06and yeah it was a tough few years because it was really really pressurized there was quite a number of people that came forward so we had to really dig deep within the team to get those cases through but we you know we managed it and and it was it was something that I really actually really enjoyed that piece of work. Good I'm pleased I'm pleased to hear that And obviously it's great work that you've continued to do. And I guess talking more about your media work then, because you have been sort of here, there and everywhere in a good way. You also featured on a Channel 4 documentary. So what did you play?

15:44What role did you play in that particular documentary? And what would you like to discuss? So the documentary is about child sexual exploitation and rape gangs in England and Wales, really. but in my view it's probably not a national issue I think it's an international issue and within that that documentary I represented two of of the women so I represent Erin not her real name and Scarlett when it is that her real name but she's not um she's weird anonymity so I can I can share that and um my role within that documentary was just to share my insight about how the justice system works for those children that have been abused and are trying to get police to investigate their cases but also to discuss how the ongoing civil cases are impacting individuals and just to generally talk about my experience of supporting those women and what I've seen and themes that I've seen.

16:50um that that really did um i what i wasn't expecting that documentary to to get so much attention to be honest i i thought that a few people watched it but i didn't think it would be the whole nation and as a result of that we've been down to meetings at the house of lords and to have discussions about the ways in which um mps can you know make changes to better support victims and survivors of abuse and um i think there will probably be follow-up work now done as a result of that and i do think that that documentary then because it all happened in it and it was a very you know it's coincidence it happened like this but we had elon musk making representations on x about on this topic and calling out our government and then very shortly after that the documentary was aired um and as i say it was just a happy coincidence that that happened but because all of this lined up in such um a short period of time it really has got the nation behind us so we're now seeing much more conversation about what's going to happen in the future for not just the children of of today but helping survivors navigate life as adults um And so that I think has been is brilliant.

18:11And it's one of the reasons. And to be honest, it's really the only reason that I try and get involved in press work is to spark change. You may have recently seen there's been lots of stuff in the media about South Yorkshire Police and the failure to investigate their own officers as perpetrators of abuse in South Yorkshire. so this last few weeks I've been spending quite a lot of time speaking to the media about that issue because I'm trying to ensure that this is taken off South Yorkshire Police and given to another police force or another body to investigate so for me all of the work that I'm doing there's a bigger picture to it and there's hopefully some change going to occur as a result of it Today's episode is brought to you by Clio Duo, the first fully integrated legal practice management and accounting solution built for UK law firms.

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19:47Now back to the show. It's your voice, but for others, right? You're trying to make a positive impact and use your your skills in your toolbox but also like you say the amplification through media outlets and that's why we fully support here as well we want to champion people and support voices in and around the legal world that are doing things for good to create change to make something impactful and yeah we commend all the the work you're doing and we'd like to talk now about the next 100 years project because you featured in that and that's been headed up by the the wonderful well future deputy vice president law society darnelly smith and also previous guest of the of the show and You shared paving the way means leading by example, being part of positive change and ensuring all inspiring lawyers are encouraged and supported through their journey into our profession in order to harness the very best talent.

20:34I love that. So what initiatives or projects have you been part of or do you support in terms of people helping them on their legal journey? So in relation to the 100 Years Project, that is sort of a separate project that's being run by Donna that I just absolutely support. And I think she's phenomenal. And I can't wait to see what she achieves as the DVP and then on to become vice president. I think she's going to be absolutely excellent. And she really is a changemaker. So that is exciting times. um but in in terms in terms of general initiatives um i just you know anything that sort of comes through my door that i think is is could could spark positive change in the workplace or the wider profession is something that i will get involved in um so for example i'm just going to go back now to my jld days to sort of give you an example of how that started but you know when the junior lawyers were being struck off for really minor offences and we spent a lot of time lobbying for change there or you know in the workplace lobbying for mental health first aiders or lobbying for trauma training so it's all very small things I think that I get involved in which I hope that in the long run will you know all knit together so that we have a better profession for aspiring lawyers coming in um yeah i just i yeah i think that's probably sums it up yeah and it's it's commendable isn't it that you you give time to give back to hopefully make it a better profession for the for the next generation and i think that's a real role model trait that you um you possess and obviously i know you're doing a tremendous job internally in terms of helping the next generation become better um lawyers within the profession you shared also no you're most welcome and that's why we're really keen to have today's discussion and I was going to say you've shared previous also gone so I was just going to say to add I think that those of us that have managed to build our way up through the profession have a responsibility to make sure that it's inclusive for the for the younger generation coming through and that's why I continue to get involved in these initiatives because otherwise we'll end up going back to you know a really

22:59you know middle class profession and I don't want to see that happen I think diversity is key and diversity ensures that we can better represent different clients. And that actually leads nicely onto what I was going to ask you next actually in terms of you shared previously I believe being from a low socio-economic background with no connections or contacts, I found it difficult to find my home in the legal profession. So with that, what advice would you give to those who come from a similar socioeconomic background to you looking to break into the profession? I found it really tough, actually, because even things like knowing which type of universities to go to, you don't have that information when you come from a lower economic background.

23:48Because there's nobody discussing that at the dinner table, if that makes sense whereas um it might be now that that you know if i had a child that i could have those discussions with them about what the best universities are and you know i'd be looking at stats and grades for them um and i think it starts really really young so for anybody that's thinking about going into legal sector from as early as they possibly can i'd be trying to reach out to to meet people there are so many people in the legal sector that will give up their time for free to help people. There are so many initiatives out there to get people into the profession.

24:26So I would be trying to build a network of people from a really young age. And that's kind of what I did really. So I fell into the JLD through the Huddersfield and Halifax Law Society, JLD at the time, which we co-founded. That then led me to become the national representative of that law Society and go on to be on the National JLD, which was incredible. I think is really the reason why I'm now director at Spitalty is because it gave me so many soft skills that I wouldn't have learned in my day job. And it gave me lots and lots of confidence because I was speaking to key stakeholders and really important people that I might never have had that opportunity to do.

25:13So I think that's the thing I think is most important is building your network. and also one of the things I have found and I was thinking about this morning is that taking opportunities before you're ready for them because actually you're never going to be ready you you'll always think you'll always that self-critical voice in your brain will always undermine you and always tell you that you aren't ready for something when actually no one's ever ready for it and we're all always learning and as a lawyer it's one of the things that I love the most you will always be learning in your job until the day that you retire um so any opportunity that comes your way take it and learn as you're doing it um is probably one of my other top tips yeah and things that i just fully support and our listeners will be fed up with me talking about it but i talk about nsn which has never stopped networking and you know the comfort zone is great but nothing ever grows there and you've put yourself in environments then you've gone and skilled stacked and actually acquired life experiences outside of the existing role which has actually enhanced you overall as a professional as you've gone through your journey and it's enabled you to push forward and do great things and the reality is when it comes to fear you know most things that you're looking for to achieve is the other side of fear so if you can just get over that and actually go and take action then you'll be amazed about the growth and opportunities that come for it and talking of other opportunities and exposure that you've had the the Sunday Times because you recently featured in there too highlighting the ongoing concerns with with gangs and the importance of learning from past failures to protect future generations.

26:47So tell us more about that particular feature and what did you discuss in that article? Essentially over the last decade of working at Spital Skates, during that we've just found failing after failing where you will have a report commissioned, those recommendations are never implemented and then the same, there's a cycle, children are just being failed. So I think we need to be looking at in depth, looking at what has gone wrong within our society as a whole, not just in relation to the police, but in relation to council, the government, why we have not tackled these issues. And only then will we be able to learn from the past mistakes.

27:25And if we and if we implement the recommendations of any report that we've had commissioned, because the piece in the times relates to failures over three days where children have been abused and more recently we've found that there's children that have been abused by police officers and that there was corruption within the police force and generally just failure to or an unwillingness to investigate. Now we've had lots and lots of reports over the years so for example in Mothering Weather J report and then we've had the independent inquiry child sexual abuse that had lots of many different reports for each strand of abuse it looked at but the overarching report had 20 recommendations and only three of those recommendations have been implemented so far and we're over a thousand days since that that report and recommendations came out and then more recently we've had the Baroness Casey report and that's got some recommendations within it as well so what's happening is we're having report after report and we're not learning any lessons because we're not implementing these recommendations so nothing's actually changing it's essentially just just talking with no action um so what we're trying to do over um as a result of all of it's trying to force the government to take action so that change is implemented and that we don't have the same cycle of abuse go on for another 30 years um because otherwise we're just continuing And ultimately what that leads to is adults and a society that have been really failed and let down and have ultimately have quite significant mental health issues as a result of that.

29:09So we need to intervene and we need to make sure that the government's being held to account. Yeah. You know, as a mentor taught me very early on in life, you know, nothing changes if nothing changes. And that's the point that you're referencing there, you know, and holding people accountable as well to ensure that things follow through. You've touched on mental health and rightly so. And it's something that we like to discuss openly here and fully support on the show, because you are a mental health and physical health first aider. So how do you advocate for positive mental health practices within the workplace?

29:45I became a mental health first aider. One, because I think it's important for myself to understand mental health and have some awareness of it, both positive and negative. and I also think that leads into the type of work that that I'm doing so I'm dealing with people that have got mental health issues every day so I think it's really really important for me to have a basic understanding of that like I'm not obviously medically trained but to be able to have mental health first aid training to be able to signpost them to um to people is really really important and actually it means I can give them a better level of client care but then in the workplace I think that also means I can help my colleagues so I mean only yeah only yesterday did somebody come to me and say you're in mental health first aid or I'm struggling we talk to me and it's having that open and transparent sort of conversation that I think leads to positive change in relation to mental health because it means that people feel that they can come to you and discuss what's going on and aside from that generally speaking I you know I'm a real advocate for flexible working and especially in the type of work that I'm doing if for example somebody's had a really tough time on a client with a client for a couple of hours and they need a half an hour to just go and decompress that's fine I'm also a real advocate for trauma-informed training so any lawyer that's dealing with you know emotive areas of law I think need to make sure that they're trauma-informed not only to better represent their clients but to better understand when they are perhaps suffering from burnout and they need to take a rest.

31:23And I regularly will pass initiatives that I think are positive onto that HRT Morton Management Board. I recently sent one a couple of days ago about mental health supervision for those that are dealing with mental health. So areas where individuals might be struggling with mental health issues. um so i think it's keeping on top of what's going on in the world and what new initiatives there are um and making sure that if you think that if you think that as an individual that that something is important and will make a difference to you and the people around you then you should i think you should advocate advocate for that um because that we talk about um delegated responsibility quite often you know there's a number of people that probably should put their hand up and say this is something that could happen or this is a change we need but actually because everybody thinks it's somebody else's responsibility nothing ever happens and so I try not to do that I try to always say this is what I think and if that's not you know followed through on then at least I put my hand up and said I think we are you know I put my piece forward and my opinion forward otherwise I just don't think you know like you say nothing happens if nothing happens.

32:36Yeah and And I think you're taking responsibility and being proactive as well and genuinely caring and creating safe spaces to allow for those conversations to happen and for the changes to happen, as you allude to there. And so I guess that kind of brings us, dovetails nicely into training because you're also Swetowski's training principal responsible for qualifying solicitors, solicitor apprenticeships and graduate solicitor apprentices. So how do you support those who are still on their journey to qualifying? Well, firstly, I always meet them at the very outset so they know that I'm approachable from day dark.

33:12We are a big law firm, so I can't see everybody face to face because there's just not enough hours in the day. And, you know, I've been traveling my whole life. But nevertheless, I meet with them quite regularly to check how they're getting in. I check in with the line managers and the HR team. I have a brilliant and brilliant talent manager who helps me with all of that. We also brought in internal training. So we get the directors or senior members of the firm to provide training to junior members. I invite them to tell me what they need training on so that we can make sure that that's given.

33:55and it might be things like how to manage difficult clients or how to time record effectively or um how to manage their own well-being how to good advocacy for example it's all things that they might not be taught um at law school or during the sqa um so we try and do that um they also i also make sure that they have socials regularly um i'm not invited as you can imagine um of course um but you know they they meet every few months to to get together so that they can build a rapport and then i've also brought in um a buddy scheme so they have a year one um trainee or apprentice will be matched with a year two apprentice or a trainee so that they can support each other and i found that's been quite brilliant because not only is it helpful so they can ask questions that they might not want to ask me because they feel that it's a silly question which there are no silly questions and I'd be quite happy to ask answer anything that they have but um it's something they feel more comfortable with so try and do that as well um and generally if if there's any issues that they are facing then I advocate on their behalf um to either the firm or the um the if it's if their apprentices quite often the the law school that they're with as well.

35:17Yeah and it's tremendous that you go to that level of effort as well and everything that you do you know to stress that you're obviously running your own cases doing all these other things and wider roles it's super commendable and I want to touch on before we look to close the wider roles you're involved in because you are a committee member of the Civil Justice Committee of Law Society so can you tell us more about that and your role? So the Civil Justice Committee of the Law Society essentially looks at anything that might impact civil justice at a national level. And I would say that that particular role isn't as hands-on because the Law Society staff are brilliant.

36:00So they essentially run it and we feed in our expertise into that committee. And the chair is one of my colleagues, John McQuater, who's an absolutely outstanding lawyer in personal injury and has been doing it for quite a number of years. But it's not just about civil personal injury type work, it's any civil litigation. And then what we do is we feed into the law society our expertise and they will then go away and lobby the relevant bodies that we've recommended that they do to facilitate change. And change has been a good theme throughout the discussion as well and making a positive impact that you're absolutely doing.