Breaking Ground: How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices - Deborah Farone - S10E03

17:15Deborah Farone:So help is always there when you need it most. It's no wonder Clio consistently receives five-star ratings for its ease of use and top-notch service. If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Thanks for giving so many practical tips and suggestions with that as well. I want to talk about women's representation now within the law, because why does it still at the top firms remain relatively low? And what is the playbook for actually making this change, in your opinion?

17:53Gregory D. Smith:If I knew that answer, in fact, at the beginning of my book, Breaking Ground, I talk about how I can't really answer that. I'm not a sociologist, but I can see that there are effects of bias. When I consult with firms, very often I find that there might be some women leaders, but when I look at the compensation committee where power is really derived, very often there are very few, if any, women on them. And so I think that there is a bias that still exists. And I think that things can get better if firms realize that and realize that they need to work on it. But in the meantime, I feel that women can kind of grab hold of the tools, which are developing a niche, starting and building a network, and using these various techniques that I lay out in the book to be able to build their own success.

18:51Gregory D. Smith:There are firms that are still keeping an eye on what's going on as far as diversity. In the US, it's quite difficult because of our current paradigm that we have going on with our government. But I think that the smart thing is to realize that a diverse workplace is going to be a better workplace and to make sure that everyone is represented at the senior most levels.

19:14Deborah Farone:Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, encouraging that diversity of thoughts and bringing in that rich sort of experiences from different backgrounds is so, so powerful. Let's talk more about Breaking Ground. I think it's excellent. your new book, you know, Breaking Ground, How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices. And what inspired you to write the book initially? And what gap in the conversation about lawyers were you most determined to fill?

19:42Gregory D. Smith:At first, I didn't want to write this book. I thought, you know, men and women, what are the big differences in how they develop business? And I wasn't really clear on it. And I remember years ago thinking maybe there should be something for women. But it was kind of in the background. I thought, you know, let me help all people. Let me help all lawyers. Let me help everyone. And then I started hearing more and more from women, particularly over the last 10 years, that they were really having trouble figuring out how to develop business, that firms were not necessarily teaching them business development in the right way.

20:16Gregory D. Smith:They would do kind of one and done programs, and then everyone would run off and do their own thing. And I kept on hearing from women that they were having a tough time and they wanted advice. And I began to coach a lot of these women, some of them from Europe, some from Latin America. And I found that this was a universal kind of song that was being played. But I knew that there were also women, you know, who were incredible at it, like Annalisa Riale, who's in Milan at Chiamenti, who is just the gold standard of business development. People love working with her. And rather than pitching people and being obnoxious about it, she takes them to the opera because she was trained as a classical musician.

20:59Gregory D. Smith:And she loves the opera. And she invites clients and their families to go to the opera and go to dinner. And I thought, there have to be a lot of Annalises out there. And while there aren't a lot, there are some. So I wanted to find those extraordinary women who found it natural to develop business. And that's what I did. I thought, let me get the two sides together as if we were having a seminar, but having women tell their own stories. So I hope that's what the book does. It gives the stories of these women who have been, you know, ultra successful by any measure at developing practices, and hopefully others will learn from them and take lessons.

21:38Deborah Farone:Oh, they absolutely will. And I think it's an incredible book and everything you've put together, a lot of hard work, I know. I'd like to start at chapter one, because in your book, chapter one, you highlighted, for many women, the biggest hurdle isn't ability, it's access. Too often, they're not in the room for those formative moments, the casual lunch with the client, the walk back from a meeting where insight is shared, or the pitch where a seasoned partner asks for the business. So how does being left out of these informal but formative moments impact women's abilities to become rainmakers?

22:11Gregory D. Smith:I think it's huge. You know, in other industries, it might be a big deal. But I think in law, it's an extremely big deal. Because lawyers learn from precedent. And they tend to look for examples to make sure that what they're doing is right. They don't love rejection. In fact, Larry Richards, who's a social psychologist, has done a lot of great work on this, saying that, you know, lawyers are probably the least resilient of anyone in any profession. And so they don't like to hear no, they don't like to face failure. And so they're constantly looking for people who are setting precedent. But if you're not in those meetings where you see people pitching and you help them prepare and you go to the lunches where they're networking with people, if you're not invited, that leaves out a big portion of your training.

23:01Gregory D. Smith:And unfortunately, people tend to gravitate towards others who look like them, who act like them, who they feel comfortable with, because they're not trained to look for diverse members to bring. And they don't necessarily think, well, what can someone else add to this conversation? So women do miss out on that. And I tell, you know, the people that I coach, make sure that you're asking, you know, for these opportunities, but realize if you don't get them, create them yourselves. You know, ask people out to lunch, do this, you know, get a partner together with you and or as a group of allies within a firm and go after clients that way.

23:44Deborah Farone:I love that. Take self accountability. Mentor said to me, if it's meant to be, it's up to me. like the more you can take that if it's not there go and create that opportunity and i think another thing that i learned very early on which again someone told me which i think builds on what you're saying there is rob more gets caught than taught so what they mean by that is the environments that you're in that you're maybe not in you're catching those turn of thraces you're catching how they take that you're whatever and these things actually really imprint on people that learning from being in the room that environment having that exposure actually lands sometimes a lot better than perhaps being formally taught things and both have their merit but the point being is like you said that you know you've got to get in those spaces and places become what may somehow and actually be able to catch that experience so you can take it to nurture yourself and keep building and building and building and that leads nicely on to talking about building practices actually because in the process of interviewing more than 60 successful women lawyers including two actually of our Legally Speaking Podcast alumni guests Priya Laleigh and Jordana Corfinia who are good friends of mine what surprised you most about how they build their practices?

24:44Gregory D. Smith:I hate to say the answer is that they all do it their own way. But in many cases, they do. Excuse me, they find ways that are authentic to them. That's number one, they do it in a way that that feels right to them. There's a psychologist that said to me, while I was writing the book, and it's in the book, she said, when you bring what you do naturally into business, it doesn't feel like you're playing a role. People really do believe you. So I think authenticity is a major part of it. I think also they build trust. They are constantly trying to build trust with clients. And that is so key. They don't see these relationships as transactional, as one-off.

25:31Gregory D. Smith:And because they don't, because they have a long-term perspective, they're able to build trust. And trust is a combination of a number of things, but mainly it's having the expertise, it's being authentic, and it's being empathetic. It's those three things. And if we look at the banking industry, they denote, you know, they've done lots of work on this, and they denote those three things. But people don't talk about it in law, which is fascinating, that what builds that trust. And I do think it's those three things. And so the women that I spoke with, whether they were in Botswana, or in Asia, or in New York, I think they were all very good at building trust.

26:16Gregory D. Smith:And it's incredible that you've interviewed two of my favorites. In fact, you know, when you talk about building things over the long term, which many of these rain making women do. I mean, Jordana and I have known each other since she interned for me when I was at Cravath. We then met later on, 10 years later in our new reimagined life. But those long-term relationships also matter. So I don't think it's one thing. There's not one easy answer. And, you know, there are very often books written. There are two that I can think of in the, in kind of in recent history, where they'll give systems, or they'll say, you have to be this kind of person in order to develop business.

27:04And that is, I think, absolutely wrong.

27:07Gregory D. Smith:You don't have to be a type of person. I think there are lots of different ways of doing it. And I think you have to do it in a way that's authentic to you.

27:14Deborah Farone:I think so as well. I think, you know, more believable, more trust, more enjoyment for yourself as well, going along with it, I think is important. I mean, it's a phenomenal resource, the book. I mean, playing devil's advocate a little bit, people are busy, there's lots of books out there. And you've obviously written this book specifically for an audience. So what would you say if people are sort of scratching around thinking of books, what sort of main pain point or sort of relief do you think your book offers to people so they should go out and absolutely give it a go and read it?

27:44Gregory D. Smith:I think people wanted real examples, whether it was men or women. You know, I always feel like, well, tell me how people are really doing it. Let me have the real tips. I don't want to hear the theory. So I do have a little bit of theory in there. Most of it's not necessarily from law firms. It's from educators in different areas, like Nicholas Christakis, who teaches at Yale, talks about connections and how you build connections. And I think it's fascinating, and I think it applies to law. But for the most part, I have stories from incredible rainmakers. They happen to be women. That's my sample.

28:23Gregory D. Smith:And if you wanted to get scientific, that's who I studied for this. But I think that these are stories that relate to all lawyers. One of the people who helped me edit and proofread the book, she is actually in real estate. And she said, oh, wow, this gave me a ton of ideas of my own practice. So I think it deals with anyone who's selling a professional service, but particularly women, women lawyers. And I hope those stories really do resonate with people, because, again, that's what I remember. You know, I can easily spout off the story that someone told me. I have a lot of tougher time spouting out a theory or applying a theory.

29:06Deborah Farone:Yeah. And again, remember when people said to me early on, Rob, you can tell all of the facts, but it's the story. sort of work so facts tell but the stories really sell and i think that's so true you know because people can connect with stories they can connect with lived experiences they can really understand people's challenges their successes and everything else um we've touched on this some throughout the conversation i love your approach so just want to sort of go a little bit deeper in terms of the relationship building you know making sure it should feel natural not performative you know not fake so what are the small habits that can transform sort of personal connections into potential sustainable business in your view?

29:41Gregory D. Smith:That's a great question. I think, you know, you have to treat each relationship differently. I don't think you could say that for each person, I'm going to call them in three weeks. I don't think systems like that necessarily work. Some people don't want to be bugged in three weeks. And if you don't really have something additive to provide in the conversation, then it really doesn't make sense to do it. So I think you have to look at the people that you're trying to develop and create your own authentic way of reaching out to them. There's an incredible lawyer who I spoke with at Gunderson Detmer, which is one of my favorite US law firms, and was one of my favorite first clients.

30:20Gregory D. Smith:And she said to me, you know, I had my child draw something at a client's event, you know, to be creative and to keep them busy. And my client liked it so much, they took the drawing and they put it in their boardroom. And I was thinking, wow, she like took one of her children's drawings and she showed it to the client. And what a personal approach that is. And she wasn't thinking about business development. She was just thinking about relationship building and being nice. There was another wonderful woman who I spoke with who said, every time she's out, if she sees the client's product, she takes a photograph of it and she sends it to the client and says, you know, yes, I loved seeing your product in that store.

31:07Gregory D. Smith:So there are things that you can do that really do feel authentic. But I think instead of saying, okay, I'm going to send everyone X memo, think about that client and what matters most to them and know enough about those clients so that these women, I have a checklist in the book that I give out to clients on occasion, which has kind of the 20 or so odd things you should know about a client. But these people who I interviewed know those things. They know who the client reports to. They know what matters to the client. They know who reports into the client. All of those things. I think you really have to know your client and know who you're having the pleasure with and be able to, you know, market appropriately and build a relationship appropriately.

31:57Yeah.

31:57Deborah Farone:And I feel the more personalized it is, the better you know small touches i always say but big impact and you know a lot of people heard me say it time and time again but specific is terrific right the more specific you can be to that individual in terms of understanding what makes them tick or what's within their within their roles or certain things they like or maybe they've got a favorite sports team and you've got a discount code for a ticket you know all these little things could maybe add value and show that you really want to know about them and you care about them and i love that you say you know be kind be nice because yeah you know we're in we're in the world now where i think hopefully business environments are changing that we don't need to do cutthroat things to get results you can just be nice you can be kind you can just you know go out there and build these authentic relationships and good things will come from it okay i want to switch from books now to lecturing we touched on it briefly because you've done some huge lecturing at top top institutions you know canal law nyu etc etc teaching sort of you know the first i think university courses on legal marketing so

32:50Gregory D. Smith:what did you enjoy most about lecturing it's so nice when you see people's eyes light up and and you've taught them something, you know, that matters. And that to me is, that's gold. That's the greatest feeling. And so I really enjoyed teaching. And I love just seeing how different people learn, you know, not everyone learns through the written word. I mean, as you were saying, you know, sometimes people lead by example. And when I was teaching, I would invite people in to come co-teach with me, we would teach together. But I think, you know, what was so helpful about being an instructor and speaking at law schools and speaking at NYU was that you get the chance to learn how to work with adults in teaching.

33:33Gregory D. Smith:And it's a different thing. You know, when I give talks at law firms, I make sure that, you know, every 10 minutes we're kind of switching the tone or switching the activity or giving them something to think about or giving them like a, I call them mini projects where you have to write down X, Y, Z. And so I think by learning those things about how to keep people involved, how to keep them interested is really just so important. And again, I think it goes back to seeing someone's eyes light up and they say, wow, I really learned something. I really got something out of this. Or they follow up with the question, which is great.

34:11Gregory D. Smith:You know, you want to hear from people afterwards.

34:13Deborah Farone:It's that intrinsic value, isn't it, you get from, Like you say, you're educating, you're passing on your knowledge, you know, they're genuinely enthused, they're excited, they want to go out into the world and impart what you've shared with them. And I think that's just hugely, hugely, intrinsically rewarding. And business development is obviously so important. It's the lifeblood of every business, really. You know, we're in 2026. What do you think business development will look like for the remainder of 2026? And again, we've talked about this, but how will authenticity drive growth over this coming year?

34:47Gregory D. Smith:I think it's more important than ever before. I think with all these lateral movements that we see within law firms and we know that laterals, you know, 50 percent of them only stay four or five years and then they're gone. I think that, you know, business development is going to be so important to those laterals, those people that come into a firm and are told you have to build a business. So I think there will be more concentration on that and how you get them into the stream of developing business right away. And also how you analyze who should be joining the firm as a partner and who shouldn't.

35:22Gregory D. Smith:So I think it'll be very important for that. And I've seen firms up their training programs immensely over the last year. And I think that will continue. And that's a good thing because I think the way you train someone when they're an associate and they're just starting out is different than the way you train someone on business development as a senior associate or as a young partner or as a more senior partner. So I am seeing firms really build out those programs per age group, or I should say longevity group within a firm. And I think that that's going to happen. And lastly, I think AI gives us a great opportunity with lots of different things, whether it's helping to write the thank you notes that you need to write or reminding us to do something or agentic AI pulling together various systems.

36:13Gregory D. Smith:You know, it has, I think, a very high potential for changing the way we do things.

36:19Deborah Farone:I couldn't agree more. And I can't believe we nearly went a whole podcast without mentioning AI, actually, even though we live in. And this has been a fascinating discussion, Debra. I really enjoyed learning about your background, obviously your book, which I highly recommend, and just so many great insights when it comes to business development, marketing, and as we go on. So I guess finally, before we let you go, for those that are maybe interested or inspired now about pursuing maybe a career in legal marketing, what would you say to those people and those individuals?

36:47Gregory D. Smith:Oh, well, they should certainly follow me on LinkedIn. I give lots of information about legal marketing, so that's number one. But I would also join the Legal Marketing Association. There are chapters in the UK. We have a European kind of chapter or there are chapters all over the US, which I think are very, very valuable. And then I think, you know, keep your eyes open, you know, read whatever you can read books, read my book, read Heidi Gardner's books, read David Ackert's books. I think they're all really worth reading and take it upon yourself to educate yourself. Just the same thing that we said about women in business development.

37:28Gregory D. Smith:I can't change the world and bias, but I can at least help individuals build their practices. And so I think we need to take responsibility and try to do it ourselves.

37:40Deborah Farone:Yeah, absolutely. And you're putting yourself out there and helping so many people and giving them lots of resources and getting touched on it there. But if people are interested, which I'm sure they are in terms of wanting to know more about your business or indeed grab a copy of your book, where can they go specifically to grab copies or get in touch with you? Are there any specific websites or social media handles? We'll also share them with this episode for you too.

38:02Gregory D. Smith:Absolutely. You know, they can always go to my website and there's order information there. My website is DeborahFaron.com or they can go to Amazon to get the books if they'd like, or PLI, the publisher, Practicing Law Institute. So there are lots of ways to get the book. I'm very active, as I mentioned, on LinkedIn. I also do some Instagram. So it's Deborah Ferron Best Practices on Instagram. um you'll also get pictures of my dog lucy mrs lucy doberman um she has her own handle as well

38:39Deborah Farone:so lots of different ways i love that and again human you know you'll connect with people in different areas you know that's what i love about it and this has just been really really nice deborah i've really appreciated your time it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show from all of us here on the legally speaking podcast sponsored by clear wishing you lots of continued success with your career and future pursuits. But for now, from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week's episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world-leading content and collaboration of The Legally Speaking Club over on Discord.

39:13Deborah Farone:Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There's a link to join our community there. Over and out.