Building a Borderless Legal Career: Lessons in Versatility from Leading GC Samallie Kiyingi - S9E35

20:31Gregory Smith:And Cairo was amazing. because when you are open, people sort of welcome you in. And I made some amazing friends. And it's not the easiest city, but if you have people, and I think that's the theme that connects all the places I've lived. If you can manage to connect people and get a core group of people who are from that place and can guide you, it becomes an amazing experience. Legally, I've seen cultural differences as well because in terms of what I do, I'm common law trained. However, in terms of what I've done in various countries, some of it has been civil law. Some of the people I've negotiated with from different countries.

21:21Gregory Smith:And that as well has required me to also step back and not assume that the way I do it is necessarily the right way or the only way. And again, it's about sitting back. You observe, not for too long, but observe. You ask the questions and then you try and move forward in the most respectful way possible.

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22:22Samallie Kiyingi:If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Love that advice. And again, it just reminds me of so many things that I've been taught and pick up from people along the way. And two ears and one mouth has always been taught to me very rarely early on in terms of, you know, making sure you really are listening and that deep level of listening as well. Quickfire question, what's your number one negotiation tactic? You mentioned, you know, negotiating with different parties, different jurisdictions.

22:54Samallie Kiyingi:Is Is there a particular strategy you advise people to improve their negotiation or something you've done that's worked well for you?

23:02Gregory Smith:I never thought of it in that way. I try to be quite pragmatic when I negotiate. I mean, there are people that ask for something ridiculous and then, you know, you work your way to the middle. There are people that have that approach. I try and be more pragmatic because I just like getting deals done. And again, going back to what we were just talking about, it's also reading the room. Because if I am dealing with somebody like that, well, then I have to adapt. But my approach is if people can see that you're pragmatic, if people can see that you're a dealmaker, often they meet you halfway. In terms of difficult negotiations, I found that silence works wonders.

23:45Gregory Smith:particularly when the room is frothing and people are, you let them talk and talk and talk. And then they'll stop. And then I won't speak, not for a little bit. And then you'll speak. And I found that as a de-escalation tactic, that's quite useful. And I raised that as well, because one thing I have found, unfortunately, that sometimes I'm in these rooms and I'm the only woman. And sometimes in these rooms, I get interrupted a lot. You know, people just talk over you. And so, again, I'll allow them to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. And then they'll look to me to say something. And I will follow that with a pregnant pause.

24:40Gregory Smith:and at the point in time that they want to interrupt me it becomes very easy to say but my friend I let you talk without interruption for as long as you wanted to and at that point you know people sort of step back and think oh you know actually they'll wait until I finish before they think about interrupting again so that's something that I've used on occasion

25:04Samallie Kiyingi:and that's the power of a pause and i think that's a really good but it's so true isn't it i think you know it it is a really important tactic there and i love how you've just been out and that's obviously how you've been able to operate at such a senior level and been so so successful because you know these are really important skills these i talk about little touches but big impact that eq that level of ability to read the room know the stakeholders then to be able to sort of position yourself and it just makes all the difference doesn't it in terms of getting what you want out of these situations.

25:32Samallie Kiyingi:So yeah, loved hearing that. Thanks again so much for sharing it. Okay, so you've worked, and we've kind of touched on this, but I want to go a little bit deeper again for people that are thinking about careers and their futures, because you've worked in private practice of serious firms, Ashurst, Clifford Chance, before transitioning again into seriously senior in-house roles, Deutsche we've touched on, obviously Standard Chartered Bank as well. How did you find the transition, again, for folks that might be thinking about that? And what advice would you give to lawyers looking to make a move in-house?

26:00Gregory Smith:I would say it's a big transition. And for me, it was particularly big because I didn't move from a law firm into a legal department. I moved into finance. But I think even if you move into a legal department, it is a big transition. And if you are making that move, I think it's worth having a conversation with someone to say, okay, what are the five things or three things I need to have front of mind when I make that transition? Because there are two things. It's where you are in the organization. So that's one thing and where you might see yourself. And then there's what you actually do. So in a law firm, you are the fee earners.

26:37Gregory Smith:You are top of the tree. You know, even if you are a trainee lawyer, you are there adding value, adding to the bottom line in a very direct and real way. And the firm is structured to enable you to do that. So you have a lot of support from sort of the knowledge managers to sort of the admin support, et cetera.

27:01Samallie Kiyingi:You go in-house.

27:02Gregory Smith:It's a bit of a shock. I remember I got to Deutsche and day one they're like, here's your laptop, here's your desk. And they just all disappeared. And I was just like, okay, I guess I'll work it out. And, you know, I had to recruit a team, et cetera. You know, so it was in a way, entrepreneurial is the wrong word. I mean, in my role was entrepreneurial. But what I would say is that you have to really switch on a commercial mindset sort of when you move from that. And you have to sort of, you know, roll up your sleeves a bit more. And so in that sense, it's a little bit harder because you don't have that support.

27:48Gregory Smith:but in another way it's far more exciting because you're in these rooms you're negotiating these deals and you know your job is to become a partner for the business or whoever you're advising

28:00Samallie Kiyingi:again beautiful advice and i love that and a word that kind of came to my mind was initiative you have to take initiative there like you said you're giving this laptop you've got to go out there then and actually go make things happen like you say go strategically recruit make sure you get the right people in the right timing of that make sure you've got the right buy-in etc etc etc so So, yeah, love that. We touched on it earlier, but I want to go back to that point in COVID because I think it's wonderful work that you did. And I'm talking, referencing here, obviously, your time at African Export Import Bank, where you played a key role in negotiating vaccines during, obviously, the pandemic.

28:32Samallie Kiyingi:So could you just talk us a little bit more about that role and what it involved? Because I know you talked earlier from a sort of skills perspective, how you were able to implement that. But I think it's wonderful work. So I'd like you to just tell us a bit more. Yeah. And again, that was really interesting.

28:47Gregory Smith:And given we're talking about careers and things that you can do, in a way, when that came through, I had no idea that I'd play such a big role. So the genesis of that deal was the president of the bank I was working for was speaking with the president of South Africa. And the president of South Africa said, look, Africa is getting left behind. We can't negotiate vaccines. And that's because, you know, vaccine companies were swamped. Everybody wanted vaccines and you had countries hoarding, etc. So the idea was, let's pull all our vaccine. Let's pull all our resources together and buy as one unit.

29:25Gregory Smith:So that was the idea. Great idea. And so my boss calls me and says, OK, somebody. So I've had this conversation. We've got this great idea. Can you document it? And I said, okay, so tell me a little bit about the structure. It's like, oh, you know, we just want to buy vaccines for everyone. And again, reading the room, there was no structure. And so I sort of went home that night. It's probably the first all-nighter I'd pulled in a very long time and put together a deck for my boss. And I said, look, thank you, sir. This is, you know, some ideas that I have around, you know, how it could potentially work.

30:04Gregory Smith:He took it away, discussed it with others. And that's kind of the structure we sort of went with. And because and again, that goes back to the skills that I had back from Clipper Chance and from Deutsche Bank and from Ashes, to be frank, in terms of being able to quickly pull together what was a structured finance deal. And from there, the other thing that I would say that sort of stands out from that was I looked at this deal and I thought, But great, I can structure it. I know when the money is going to come in. I know where the obligations go in and out. But we've got to deliver these vaccines.

30:42Gregory Smith:How do we do that? And so, again, going back to different skill sets and different things that you can pull from different areas, I went to my network. And I got in touch with the General Counsel of UNICEF. And I said, look, I hear you guys have got some expertise in delivering vaccines. You know, and we have a conversation. And he was absolutely amazing. And we ended up in a joint partnership with UNICEF as our delivery partner. And through UNICEF, I learned so much around vaccine delivery, around what some of our contracts should look like. Because, again, sometimes it's about recognizing the skills you have and also the skills you don't have.

31:29Gregory Smith:And that was a skill set that I didn't have, that they were so generous. And even just referring sort of advisors or consultants. And, you know, we had to store vaccines in certain facilities. They were just absolutely amazing. And I think that sort of collaborative element was one of the things that made that deal such a success.

31:52Samallie Kiyingi:My listeners know what's going to come next because I talk about it all the time, but that is just the best example of collaboration is domination. And it's such a beautiful example of what I also talk a lot about, which is NSN, never stop networking. And you never know when your network could come in handy. And what a great example there of that for yourself. And, you know, again, I talk very openly about we've been through pandemics, we've been through recessions. You could lose your job, you could lose your business, but you never necessarily lose your personal brand, your network. And if you keep working hard on those two, they will always carry you through through boom or bust markets.

32:23Samallie Kiyingi:And I think you just gave a great example of doing great things to have exponential impact through your networking skills and everything you've built. So thank you for sharing that. OK, let's talk now about Finance Foundation, because you are also an expert member of Prime's Finance Foundation. So can you tell us about the work you do there and the importance of it, please?

32:42Gregory Smith:Oh, absolutely. So Prime, for those who don't know, is an organisation based in The Hague, invitation only, so people are nominated to be a part of Prime. And essentially, it gathers together experts from all over the world who are sort of leaders in their field, in structured finance, in derivatives, in fintech. And it's not just lawyers. So lawyers are there, but also bankers are there, structure is there, insurers are there. and the idea behind it was, in terms of the gentleman that set it up, was when we had the financial crisis, there was a sense that everybody was going to sue each other, given all these securitisations and deruders were going wrong.

33:29Gregory Smith:And so he quickly pulled together these experts so that if people did need to do that, you had a pool of people who actually understood what was going on. The lawsuits never came in the numbers expected, but this group of experts remained. And so I'm an expert as part of that organisation, but I also sit on the management board. And a lot of what we do now is focused still around dispute resolution. So we have published specific dispute resolution rules that cater to structured finance, because sometimes the standard rules just aren't as tailored. So again, to facilitate faster resolution of arbitrations in this space.

34:14Gregory Smith:And the other thing we do is a lot of capacity building. So again, structured finance, derivatives, you know, it's not something that everybody necessarily does. And a lot of what Prime has done, particularly recently, has been in developing countries to help train their judiciary, help train sort of the lawyers there around these issues. So particularly when governments and governments do enter some of these structured finance transactions, that, you know, there's a ready population of lawyers who can facilitate so that you don't necessarily have to go abroad to get that expertise. So it's a fantastic organization, very niche, but in my view, very needed, because, again, these are things, these are instruments that we live with.

35:05Gregory Smith:They're part of finance. And it's just really important to have these experts that can not only be a resource if you need them, but also assist with capacity building. Yeah.

35:17Samallie Kiyingi:And again, I talk a lot about this specific is terrific, right? And having that level of expertise and having that sort of, you know, just so much better, isn't it? You can just drive so much more meaningful impact. And it's beautiful work that you're doing along with others. So thanks for sharing that. Now I want to talk about conferences because, excuse me, this is where we actually connected earlier in the year at Legal Tech Talk 2025, where we're introduced by a former Legally Speaking podcast guest and mutual friend of ours, Stephanie Boyce, who is former president of the Law Society of England Wells.

35:46Samallie Kiyingi:Definitely go and check out her episode, folks, as well. But at Legal Tech Talk, you discussed what it truly means to be AI-ready. Sharing, it's about having the right mindset, creating appropriate governance frameworks, and building AI-literate teams. What other factors do lawyers need to consider if they want to really be AI-ready, in your opinion?

36:09Gregory Smith:I guess on top of that, just use it. Use it. I mean, yes, you'll have the tools at work to use it. You'll have frameworks to use it, but use it in your personal life. You know, the more familiar and the more comfortable you are with AI, all forms of AI, the stronger that muscle becomes. It's all about the prompts, but it's also about being comfortable because you've got people who perhaps might use it more as, you know, an advanced Google. But it's just, you know, how often you use it, because that's probably how a lot of us started using AI. But the more you use it, and I would also say not just use it sort of at work and in your personal life, but take time out to train yourself.

36:57Gregory Smith:So a lot of organizations provide training, but it's specifically around sort of what you do. And AI is bigger than your job and your career. And so for me, train yourself. Use it. Go out of your way and invest time in learning and getting up to speed as quickly as possible.

37:19Samallie Kiyingi:Such great advice. And you talked very earlier on about sort of curiosity. And I think that's the number one thing I think you have to bring with AI and you reference sort of advanced searching there as a Google. But actually, you know, why, why, why putting in the why into the AI to really understand what are some of these trends and why is that a trend? And why is this? And then actually getting those learnings and then you can make better educated decisions to have more impact. And also at Legal Tech Talk, you kind of reference to junior lawyers. And it's something we're passionate about as well in terms of building their careers and thinking about what AI cannot do yet, which is build a network, read a room, exercise, real judgment and think creatively, if I can get my words out.

37:58Samallie Kiyingi:So how else can junior lawyers build their careers with embracing the sentiment of in the future of law, it's not necessarily AI versus lawyers. It's lawyers who effectively can use the AI.

38:11Gregory Smith:Absolutely. And that's exactly what it will be. And I think actually that's what it is. I don't think I, as you say, you know, the train has left the building. And I think going back to mindset, AI should make you better. So it doesn't, it shouldn't take away your creativity. So I wouldn't say go to AI for the answer. No, go to AI to help you be better at whatever you're doing. And as a junior lawyer, I think that's where it becomes key. How do you use it to become better? I mean, yes, it'll help you deliver things, you know, faster, more efficiently. But I think in terms of that mindset and thinking, okay, how can I use this to learn?

39:04Gregory Smith:So number one, how can I use this to make me sharper? because I actually had a conversation with, this is outside of law, with a journalist who uses AI. And I go, okay, that's interesting. He was very honest. He said, look, AI writes far better than I do. I'm like, really? I was like, yeah, it does. But he says what he says is he still writes, but AI has made him a better writer. And I thought that's how you use it. So he uses AI in a way to challenge him, to improve him. It's almost like that mentor who, you know, as a lawyer used to sort of, you know, mark up your contract in red pen to all you can see was red.

39:49Gregory Smith:You know, AI can do that. So I would say use it as a tool to sharpen yourself as opposed to a tool that will just get things done faster or give you the answer. Yeah.

40:01Samallie Kiyingi:And I think if you do it the way that you're suggesting, you'll have self-development and you'll keep building. Whereas if you become ultra reliable and actually your level of thinking, I think you may potentially run the risk of going backwards in terms of your creative thinking and being relevant and, you know, actually bringing something to the table. Because like you say, you're building that muscle and you're kind of flexing it time and time again and you're getting used to way of using this technology is propelling you forwards. And I think that's the exciting thing of this. And it kind of leads nicely onto mentorship.

40:27Samallie Kiyingi:It's been a theme throughout the discussion. I know you've touched on mentors, but just a chance for you maybe to share a little bit more. some of the mentors who have really shaped your career and journey into law? And how do you approach mentoring the next generation of lawyers?

40:42Gregory Smith:So, I mean, we talked about my mom, I guess that was sort of mentor number one, in terms of, you know, just somebody that you can sort of look up to, but also sort of, I mean, she was my mom, but sort of ask questions, you know, silly questions. And the other thing I'd say is that my mentors haven't necessarily all been lawyers. So I've had sort of mentors from industry. I've had mentors from the media. And again, it's this idea that you can learn from the wisdom of others who've experienced things that you haven't necessarily experienced. One thing I would say is that I was probably late to the game in terms of formally seeking a mentor.

41:23Gregory Smith:So a lot of my mentors were informal. I knew them here and there. And then And it was just like, you know, do you mind if we meet up for coffee, et cetera? It wasn't a formal, I didn't approach it in that way. It was quite organic, which was quite nice. But I would say if I was starting my career again, I would probably be more intentional about seeking mentors. And seeking a mentor, it's not a one-way street as well. You know, it's actually a two-way street. So it's not you get a mentor and they give you all this stuff. But it's also about you actually contributing to them as well. So, you know, it's a conversation as opposed to a lecture.

42:01Gregory Smith:And in terms of sort of my approach to mentorship, I mean, I try and take sort of that approach where really it's a conversation between me and sort of whoever is coming, you know, seeking a mentor. A challenge I find is time because of the roles that I've had. And so it's much easier when somebody has, in a way, sort of framed the discussion, sort of, you know, why are we having this conversation? As opposed to let's have coffee and just see what happens. So someone who's potentially done homework or someone who has a specific question, it's much easier sort of as a mentor to sort of engage with that and assist.

42:55Samallie Kiyingi:and respectful of time i think if you're intentional and you come ready and prepared i think you can have a far richer conversation and and again i talk about this a lot but you know i learned very early on the word learn if you drop the l it spells earn so before you earn you must learn and it's so important and i think mentors are great for that and we talk very openly about 360 board of mentors maybe people ahead of you same level of you beneath you and then like you were talking about cutting across different industries you might just get that nugget from someone else or just that turn of phrase or that idea that could spark something into you or that one connection that could change your life all of that things um love it so mentorship absolutely so so important okay let's talk about guiding the next generation again because you've been recognized among the 100 most influential people of African descent under 40 and awarded general council of the year in 2021 number of accolades how do you continue to inspire and indeed mentor the next generation of women?

43:49Gregory Smith:Big question. And these questions, I mean, they kind of make me blush because it's just like, I was just doing my job.

43:57Samallie Kiyingi:Very, very well.

43:59Gregory Smith:But what I would say is this, and this is something that has got me through difficult periods because, I mean, we do these jobs. They're not always easy. Everybody's had hard days, hard clients, hard deals. how do you inspire yourself? So, so, so when it comes to inspiration, I start with myself. Am I inspired by me? So I start there and sometimes I'm not. And so I'm just like, okay, fine. I've got to work on that. Because if, particularly if you're in a leadership position, if you are not inspired by yourself, you are not going to inspire other people. the energy you bring to that room and what you convey.

44:46Gregory Smith:And it's not just what you say, it's sort of how you are. That makes a huge difference. So, you know, if I am walking into a room and I'm like, okay, you know, I've done all this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I feel, I guess, confident in myself. And I guess, again, I'm trying to find the right word to use, but feeling quite satisfied in terms of the hard work that I've put in and the results that I've received. It makes it easier to sort of inspire myself and then inspire others. I think the other key thing is having a sense of purpose. Why is it we do what we do? We work all these hours, et cetera, et cetera.

45:33Gregory Smith:I think if you don't have a sense of purpose in that sense, a it's hard to be inspired by yourself or by what you do and it's also hard to inspire others so i'd probably say that those are sort of my two top tips i feel like i've met like my my my idol

45:51Samallie Kiyingi:and person that i would just like resonate so well with everything you've just been saying throughout this conversation because so many things that i've have picked up from mentors and um advisors over the year i remember someone saying what is your what rob you know i'm really leaning into that and you know everything is energy and i strongly believe everything is energy you've got to bring you know my view i'm i'm very pro that and try to put good energy out too because i think that's then reciprocated and like you say you know also in terms of inspiring yourself and you know we have ambitions with this show and where we want to take it and not resting on our laurels i'm going to continue to push very hard and you know hopefully that transcends to our community and they want to kind of uplift and support and champion and help and you know collaborate further.

46:30Samallie Kiyingi:So like you say, the more energy and effort you can put into things, that sort of flywheel continues to kind of pick up more and more pace and more and more things you can go on. And, you know, in terms of inspiring yourself, you know, if your goals aren't scaring you, they perhaps aren't big enough, right? So if you want to kind of like, you know, we talk a lot about comfort zones and actually getting out of that comfort zone to go on and do, you know, bigger and braver things. This has been a wonderful discussion. I've thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. So if I could just leave with one final question and it's advice, what would your advice be to aspiring lawyers who are interested in pursuing a career in finance and banking law, given where we are in the world today with the times changing at the speed of knots?

47:10Gregory Smith:Gosh, all these big questions.

47:15In this current environment, I would say what you need to do is

47:21Gregory Smith:focus on how is it that you are thinking strategically. The knowledge you have is accessible to everyone via AI. So being the smartest person in the room in terms of knowing things isn't going to get you ahead in the way that it would have in the past. So strategic thinking. And I say that because often as lawyers, sometimes we don't start thinking about strategic thinking until we get a leadership role. And I would say, my friend, start now.

47:53Samallie Kiyingi:Such powerful advice. And yeah, the harsh reality is we've had people come on board. Knowledge is going to zero. So, you know, that is, that is, you know, whether you agree with it, disagree with it, that is a fact because you just referenced that. It's that level of human. That's where the human insight, that strategic thinking, that way of looking out and being able to see where the puck is going and how you can pull things together and utilize all these brilliant tools and things coming. Yeah, fantastic. Thank you ever so much. This has been a wonderful discussion. If people would like to know more about your career, or indeed get in touch and learn more about Prime's Finance Foundation, where can they go to find out more?

48:26Samallie Kiyingi:Feel free to share any websites or any social media handles. We'll share them with this episode for you too.

48:32Gregory Smith:Wonderful. So yep, LinkedIn, absolutely. Prime Finance is having a conference in New York at the end of October. So feel free to check that out as well.

48:40Samallie Kiyingi:Well, it just leaves me to say thank you ever so much once again for joining me on the Legally Speaking podcast sponsored by Clio. Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. But from all of us here on the show for now, wishing you lots of continued success with your future pursuits. Over and out. Thank you for listening to this week's episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world-leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. there's a link to join our community there over and out