Crafting Careers: The Art of Workplace Design & Why it Demands Revolution - Niki Avraam - S10E02

0:00We need to remain adaptable. Look at how you can take the best from people. Will you engage them? Will you get them involved in the job design? Will you challenge them? Forward motion is so important for people. In the times that we're in now, you look at how you can create a supportive environment where you've really got people's backs. Bring what you have from your background. It's so important that organisations celebrate people's differences in unifying people. that we have that diversity, not just culturally, but in people's journeys and their lived experiences. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Nikki Avram.

0:42Nikki is an employment lawyer and law firm founder. She is also the head of WorkWell Europe, leading the transformation of workplace culture across the UK and Europe. With two decades of expertise in law, leadership and culture change, Nikki is passionate about preparing people for the future of work. Nikki's mission goes beyond the legal landscape. She believes individuals should have profound satisfaction in their work. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Nikki. Hello, Rob. Lovely to see you and great to be here. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, particularly after us collaborating live in person recently.

1:19But before we get into all the great stuff that you've been getting up to, got a couple of quick fire icebreaker questions for you. so what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during a workday favorite beverage is oh i'm gonna go posh i love champagne oh okay good good any preference of champagne bollinger's nice okay yeah yeah we can go with that and footwear footwear oh my god that is a serious question i take my footwear very seriously if i'm going comfort i'll go with an adidas trainer okay if i'm going kind of posh i will go with i love hills okay anything i've got i've got pair of jimmy cheese upstairs yeah anything from that to uh a lovely hilled boot with a bit of sparkle okay very very interesting good range there good question absolutely and thanks for sharing and with that we should probably move swiftly on before we don't get too much into a rabbit hole to talk all about you and your career so would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey to start with.

2:23Where do I start? So I am the daughter of immigrants who came over to England in the 1960s from tiny island Cyprus and I had a very entrepreneurial upbringing. We had lots of different businesses one after the other, fish and chip shop which we lived above, dry cleaners, hairdressing and we We were, as kids, I've got two older sisters. We were probably to everything, like staff problems, business rates, the highs and the lows, all the volatility that comes from running a business around the table. And so from back then, I really understood that it's not enough to have just innovation and entrepreneurial mindset.

3:06You have to have the stomach and the resilience to withstand the volatility that comes with running a business. So choose your hard is something that I learned from very early on. And I was fortunate. It was a great classroom. And when I entered the legal profession, I went in with that entrepreneurial mindset, which was unusual. It was like a superpower. I wanted to build as well as lawyer. And one thing I noticed when I entered the first firm, even as a trainee, I noticed that employment law wasn't a distinct standalone department. It was like annexed to commercial law. And I could see that it was building momentum.

3:47There was loads of legislation coming in from Europe. It was really exciting, discrimination, flexible working. There were so many things. And clients needed it. They needed help with their workforce. They were being sat with discrimination claims, with unfair dismissal claims, and not knowing what to do. And so I became really brave because I developed this purpose. I wanted to build that department to help the firm prosper. But also I saw it as a real vehicle for societal impact and I wanted to have that impact. So I slid a business table across to the senior partner, a business plan across to the senior partner.

4:27And I rejected the more traditional roles in commercial law, housing litigation that were offered to me. I was doing, I was quite fearless. I was inviting senior partners to talk about how I could help from an employment perspective. with their clients and I collaborated with the firm I was very involved in my own job design and I was so passionate and invested in what I was doing and I went on to do that in other firms I became a partner quite early on in my career building employment I fought some fantastic cases for individuals as well discrimination cases whistleblowing cases against the big banks newspapers and when it came to build my own firm which I did with my business partner 11 years ago Howard Avram it felt like not that new because I'd already cut my teeth I wanted a platform where we did law differently and one of the things that we did very early on was to decide that there was to be no possessiveness over clients that didn't serve clients properly or effectively we wanted to put the client at the center we we did a structure so that it didn't support lawyers being really possessive over their clients because that was at cross purposes and we wanted lawyers who had commercial now so they had that commerciality to really help businesses it was not just about writing caseless or even just preventing claims from arising this was really about working alongside the business while we're going to achieve their objectives.

6:05So fast forward to today, I realized that everything that I do is connected with this mission of really building invigorated, invested, engaged workforces. That is central to everything I do. And I do that through various means. I train companies. I speak. I do a lot of speaking about it, writing. I'm the head of Europe for WorkWell, the company where that is really in their DNA because we're addressing the fact that, you know, organizations have got something in common that they probably don't want to have in common and that is that lots of people are depleted and we believe and we enact the fact that that is not acceptable.

6:51We have a fundamental right to be invigorated by the work that we do and we operationalize that in organizations you know companies want to have a bigger conversation I want that the mission got bigger during COVID times actually I didn't just want to do law I wanted to invest in those organizations and really push forward and and help the movement of how we change the way that we work so that we're as effective as possible we untap our potential and we're ready for the future absolutely and thanks for giving such a comprehensive overview from start to where you are now there's quite a bit i want to unpack there the first thing that comes to mind is a mentor said to me very early on rob more gets caught than taught and i think going back to your environment of being in the fish and chip shop seeing that business run you know you're probably seeing a lot of things there you're catching a lot of things like you said about you know maybe staff not turning up supplier issues all those things And maybe that's getting built into you at a young age, sort of understanding maybe you need to be a problem solver, find solutions, need to innovate.

7:57And so I really see you kind of growing up in that entrepreneurial environment. It makes a lot of sense now for all the amazing things you're obviously doing and going on to do in terms of that entrepreneurial flair. And I love that you reference sort of resilience because, you know, it is hard, you know, getting over the line with some of these things. So if you're prepared to break the mold or do something slightly different, which you absolutely have and have been very successful doing, you do need to have a thick skin because not every day is fantastic. And I love your approach to collaboration.

8:23My listeners will be sick and tired of me saying collaboration is domination, but it's so true. And I love that approach when it comes to client sharing, you know, not having that perceptive nature and actually encouraging collaboration. Because as you come to that approach, you know, the client wins, you know, the internal culture wins. There isn't that sort of, you know, dog eat dog type environment. And hence why you've been super successful. You've obviously built up a high level of resilience and understanding of, you know, you are going to be in tough, maybe stressful situations. And you use that to propel forwards to all the other things you're doing.

8:52You've mentioned yourself a very unconventional journey. You describe it as that from employment lawyer to obviously leadership. And as you're mentioning, sort of workforce, you know, expert. what was the one moment you realized you wanted to go beyond traditional legal practice and what do you think holds so many people back from not doing that it's so important I think even if you follow what we might deem as a traditional trajectory okay you go into a law firm trainee you're an associate you reach partner you can do it in a different way and what I was seeking to do from the outset was to be entrepreneurial.

9:28So I was, that's why I say I was involved in my own job design and that wasn't typical. And we, we often think of Laura as something rigid. You have to do it this way or that, and you have to follow this path. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think there's more freedom now than there was back then. But one thing I, I, I remember a seminal moment actually that happened and really changed the way I led. I was a leader, I guess, from quite an early stage because I was building these departments and we were hiring people into them. But I remember this really big case and it had gone to the Court of Appeal.

10:07It ended up being a precedent for employment status, whether or not you're deemed an employee. and it had gone on for years so we won the case at a pill stage and I remember going back to the office champagne in one hand ready to celebrate with the team and walking in like we won yes so Victoria's wanting everyone to jump out of their seats and celebrate with me but there was a bit of a kind of glazed look where they were kind of yeah well done Nikki well done you know and I could see that they didn't consider it to be their win. You know, they were looking at me and congratulating me, but it was muted.

10:48And I just remember it so distinctly because it was probably the time that I decided to lead in a different way. I'd been a kind leader. I'd really been invested with the people that I was working with. But I think I was, in many ways, a bit top down, you know, thinking that all my passion and my strength could treacle down to everyone else. And that wasn't the case. I wasn't taking them on the journey and perhaps being a bit controlling over how they were doing things rather than just connecting them to the task. So I really started to look at that, examine it and think about why had I been so invested even early on in my career?

11:28Because I had been given that autonomy. I had been empowered and I decided to become that, an empowerer, an enabler. and I started to articulate how I thought we should we should work together I started to ask questions in career growth meetings I started to hold those meetings more regularly in the first place questions that I promote now when I talk to organizations like what are you good at that we're not using you know to really try and align people's strengths and talents with what they're daring. And so much wisdom in there. And, you know, ultimately, all of us need quality information. That's how you can make good quality decisions.

12:08And how do you do that by asking better questions? Right. And to your point now, like you're saying, you're asking those questions, you're being curious. And I wonder when you went back with the champagne, I don't know, it was a muted experience. Was there Bollinger involved? No. Okay, fair enough. We'll accept that. Okay, let's talk more about how your your legal background may or may not have shaped some of your your sort of leadership views because you've worked for both employers and individuals has that shaped your approach to leadership and culture generally and if so share yeah as a lawyer and particularly promoting proactivity you know at how i've ran really making clear to clients that we are here to work alongside you we want to help achieve your business objectives when you take on that position you really are working in the bones of the organization and in employment law you see the functions of the workforce you know so what to see beyond even if we'd had a piece of litigation and I was going back to say look how do we not just prevent it how do we work better looking at the the cultural center and during covid you know companies were looking at why was their workforce so apathetic.

13:21You know, we were going through such a volatile time, but it was even beyond that, not just why people don't want to come to the office anymore, why are they not engaged? And I really started to delve into what is it that engages people? What is it that really untaps their potential? Because if you don't tap into that, you are missing out on all of that gold dust. so I say now you know in any occupying any position managerial or leadership look at how you can take the best from people and how are they going to invest will you engage them you get them involved in the job design you challenge them forward motion is so important for people in the times that we're in now you look at how you can create a supportive environment where you've really got people's backs so they can be all those all those buzzwords we hear so they can be agile or can be adaptable because if we are looking at the importance of skills and the way they are shifting and the way we need to upskill people need to feel safe in order to do that safety equals creativity in my opinion if you give people this safe environment where they can fail forward you know they're not judged the result of it the amount of creativity the amount of sort of enthusiasm.

14:41The culture is just an overall net benefit. And I love that you make it really specific to the individual. Again, someone said to me, you know, what is your what? And I think when you know what it is for that individual, and you can really double down and really help them get to the next level, like you say, and challenge them at times, maybe, I think that's a really good thing. Okay, let's stick on culture, because it is so important. And you talk very passionately about the power of ownership culture, you're probably touching on a little bit earlier but what does ownership mean to individuals working in a company and for the company in your opinion?

15:11Yeah you're right in that it starts with the individual and one of the things that was important to me and I could see working in the bones of organizations a level of agency and autonomy that is important we all need a level of control over what we do doesn't mean that we are all owning businesses or working in silos it means that we need space and and that comes in various forms the second thing I've already mentioned we need forward motion and we need challenge I've termed it as preferred discomfort and that just means that we intentionally pursue experiences and challenges that broaden our horizons because that keeps our invigoration going and we can always feel it you know when we know it's going to be a bit scary but we want to push through when you come out on the other side you feel that sense of pride and we've all experienced that even in our personal lives the third thing which is really important to the ownership culture is that we are not trapped by what we think we should be doing or what we thought we are in terms of how we've labored ourselves i call it the authenticity trap and then he's really saying that we need to keep an eye on how we evolve if we have a strong core which is made up of our mission and our purpose then we can be more adaptable and flex on everything around it so the work that I've been doing that that's so that's so important now is how do we operationalize that to serve those individuals and that comes in many forms how we craft people's roles, job design.

16:52And that also relates to something you were touching on, Rob, and that's that people need to be connected to purpose and mission. A part of job design is making sure that people are linked, even their day-to-day, to the mission, the purpose of the organization, and that there is an alignment between that and people's strengths and their talents and their passions. That's how people produce their best work, And that's how companies thrive. And the preferred discomfort is the way we operationalize that is, again, to create a psychologically safe space. But there can be that collective adaptability.

17:30And if we're going to focus, which I think we should be doing as firms, as organizations, on people's skills, increasingly, those skills have a short shelf life. We don't know what jobs are going to be there. Jobs are changing. So in order to tap into the potential, the internal labor market, we need people to be adjusting, to have that mindset so that they do feel comfortable to transfer. There are so many examples of organizations that are already tapping into that. yeah and i love that you talk about job design and you know actually giving people the the option because it may not come to so many people so so naturally i love that you've done it and continue to sort of advocate for it and i love the idea of an impact scale to your point people buying into the mission and the vision of the company but actually maybe on a quarter or on a biannual or an annual basis what's been your impact linked to the mission and actually let's quantify that so you can see your direct impact because you bought into this company you believe in the mission you want to go further with us this is your impact score almost like a rating score or whatever it might be and I think that's a great way for people to actually genuinely be infused excited and actually really see how they can amplify their impact okay life happens though Nikki there's lots of unexpected challenges when you're leading so many leaders struggle with those unexpected challenges that come your way how can choosing discomfort build resilience and innovation in your opinion?

19:00Discomfort and working in our preferred discomfort is a muscle and it's one that we need to exercise and where we do exercise that it is easier to adapt to new situations to new challenges and that by the way is what leads to the great work the innovation because we've been brave enough to perhaps experiment and learn and then breakthroughs are made and if we celebrate that as organizations even having test and learn sessions or sessions where we are talking about why did this go wrong and what did we learn from it in a controlled environment then we're celebrating people working beyond their comfort zones outside of their comfort zones and we are really saying to people you are still safe here um if you adhere to the boundaries and you you test and learn and you stretch i talk a lot about the stretch that we can have in our job roles and again there are so many examples in different organizations google doing it back in the day they had a 20 margin for people to stretch in other words people doing other things beyond their job remit.

20:18And that led to Google Maps, Gmail, like I say, it was back in the day. But we can learn from things like that. We're not taking everything from the tech giants, but it's an example that it doesn't have to be radical. Talking about working outside of our comfort zone, it can be incremental. I used to do ridiculous things. As a junior lawyer, I guess I had freedom to turn up to work between eight to nine o 'clock. I used to talk at different times because it broke that autopilot mode it sort of woke me up and I was engaged I used to go to court and take different routes back to the office because that made me feel that I had a level of agency and also I was experiencing a different route and I and I just it just sort of shakes things up you know when you're in you know when you drive somewhere and you know where you're going you almost quite dangerously switch off while you're going there that's that autopilot that we don't want it's good to have systems it's good to have discipline consistency but we need to be awake and engaged in what we're doing today's episode is brought to you by clio are you frustrated with your current legal management software you're not alone and thousands of solicitors across the uk feel your pain however the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration.

21:42Clio is here to help as the intelligent legal work platform bringing together context-aware AI and trusted legal research to power the legal practice management. Clio's dedicated migrations team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information and if you have any questions you'll get award-winning support available 24-5 by live chat, phone and email. So help is always there when you need it most. it's no wonder clio consistently receives five-star ratings for its ease of use and top-notch service if you're ready to leave frustration behind visit clio.com forward slash uk to learn more and see why clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the uk now back to the show always be thinking about you know how can we improve do things differently innovate get better and even like you said just those simple ways it might be from a to b but how can we maybe we go there differently or how can we go there quicker or how can we challenge ourselves to do this in a different route or could we carry more loads love that love that okay I want to talk about authenticity now we've touched on it and I know it's a word that's banded around a heck of a lot so let's try and be practical and tactical in as much as we can with this in what ways can leaders bring personal but also cultural wisdom to the workplace in powerful and authentic ways I encourage everyone, leaders and beyond, to bring their wisdom toolbox to work.

23:04So what does that mean? That means that we bring our lived learnings from our lives and our experiences to the workplace. It doesn't mean that we sit at our desks and talk about everything that's going on in our personal lives. What it means is that we understand and we recognize that we all have unique backgrounds and we all have unique lived experiences. And if we think about it, we can apply that to work and to leadership in particular. And there is, you know, when I talked about my top down leadership and thinking my strengths could trickle down to everyone else. what was I doing? I was emulating what I had seen before and how I thought I had to be in order to be a sort of a tough leader when actually I understood that that wasn't getting the best out of people.

23:58So I started to look at what could I bring to the table as a leader? How could I develop my own leadership philosophy and bring that to the table? That is so much richer, that is so much more authentic and people will relate to that. And I talk about this all the time. The reason when I went into the workplace, when I went into law on day one, I understood the importance of looking after a client, of putting them at the centre. And part of it was, as ridiculous as it sounds, I was applying, I know it now, I was applying the principles of hospitality that I had seen growing up. all Greek separate family, loads of people coming around at the time, staying over, big tables of food.

24:42We always wanted to present the best version of our home. And when people came to my workplace, when they had chosen our law firm, you had to serve them with pride. And I would do everything for that client. If there was something that I couldn't do, I would find someone else that could. I love that. You're exceptionally client-centered. And I think when you have that approach and you genuinely treat them as a client in a relationship, not a number and an invoice and a billing amount, I think that really changes the dynamic and you go above and beyond as you share there. I know you have a three pillar strategy that you may be loosely touched on, but I want to maybe go a little bit deeper because you implement this in the style of practicing, I think related to decision making, aligning with personal growth.

25:24So could you maybe talk us through your three pillar strategy in more detail and give people a bit more of a snapshot? Yeah, this is really about how we operationalize the ownership culture in organizations so that it's not just fluff. We practice it and we really get the best out of people and people feel that they are connected to the organization and the organization in turn thrives. The first pillar is, I talked about it, job design, job crafting, how we align people's strengths and their talents and their passions to what they're doing, the job that they're doing, and how we link. This is job reframing, how we link what they're doing to the purpose of the organization.

26:11When you create that alignment, we all know this from personal experience. when we are investor-connected and it's aligning with our strengths, we're going to perform so much better. And there are practical micro-actions that you can take as a business, having more career growth meetings, looking at yourself as leaders, as the ambassador of people's career growths. What are you good at that we are not using? How does what you do connect to the purpose of the organisation? People need to matter. It's a culture of mattering. We saw that term in Harvard Business Review. And the second pillar is preferred discomfort.

26:53Working in our preferred discomfort. So how do we create those environments to create the ability of people to feel brave to work outside of their comfort zone, to be collectively adaptable? Can we implement, test and learn projects? Can we look at in a law firm, what are the nuances, what's going on in the market, and can we delve into another area of law? As long as we're comfortable, and it's within the realms of our broader expertise. The third pillar is agility over rigidity, and not being trapped in what we were doing, what we think we should be doing. and look at how can we really utilize our skills so that they adapt and they align with the objectives of the organization and the different things that we can be doing.

27:51Airbnb created a brilliant thing, and this is early on. We've got five generations in the workforce today. So how can we all learn from each other? They created the Money Time Program where people share their skills. I can learn so much from a younger employee or worker who is a digital nomad or just is so much more engaged with social media, perhaps this is stereotyping and look at all the lived wisdom that an older person in the workforce can perhaps bring. so learning from each other being adaptable in that way having that transfer of skills and is really important to how we successfully thrive going forward because things are changing fast I love that insight and it's so true isn't it because you have such a different makeup of journeys backgrounds experiences at all different levels I talk a lot about the importance of having your 360 board of mentors, people above you, people probably at the same level as you, people underneath you that you can all learn from.

29:00I think building that culture is a great way to get the best out of the organization, isn't it? It's bringing the best out of everyone. You're getting knowledge sharing. It's empowering. It's a really great way to do it. So thanks for sharing that. You, again, had an unconventional journey. I want to ask about unconventional advice now. What is the most unconventional piece of advice you share with leaders that they first question, but later on then thank you for it the authenticity trap is something that um people always get cross about or they say well no i want i want to be myself um what are you talking about you're the one that's telling us to bring your wisdom toolbox to work uh but all that it means um is that we're prepared to shape shift in other words we go into even new environments you know i reached a stage where i've been to so many of the same type of event for example and I wanted to go to different networking events different communities so I could learn and bring that level of outside into my world that means that you you have to adapt in a way sometimes even copying people's different styles until you adapt and learn you have to try and do different outfits sometimes um you know we talked about growing up in the household that I did I was speaking a lot of Greek at home I was mixing with different people outside of the home I perhaps was changing the way I spoke in a way to connect with the people I was speaking to that doesn't mean you're fake or that you're not being true to yourself you are doing what you need to to be understood and to connect with people so that's what I mean about the authenticity trap and not being so bogged down with the various labels that other people impose on you or sometimes that you impose on yourself.

30:55Yeah, and that unnecessary pressure, perhaps sometimes you put on yourself as well. And again, I'm just sat here nodding, agreeing with everything you're saying, because it's so true. And we've had so many people on the show that would sort of attest to that as well. And, you know, you're very much finger on the pulse. Looking forwards then in terms of future-proofing careers, you highlight that one in 16 jobs could be obsolete by 2030. What skills should individuals be prioritising to stay employable? You know, it's difficult to have this, you know, set set of skills that everyone needs to adopt.

31:30But if I look at broadly, we've mentioned this so many times during this chat um we need to remain adaptable teachables uh teachability is something that i look at a lot um when i'm interviewing people and when i'm meeting people and i think it's being recognized by a lot of organizations i know siemens are when they're recruiting people they have however however they discern it like psychometric tests or whatever they're looking at people's ability to adapt people's ability to be teachable because we have to have that culture of learning um if things are going to be changing which they are at pace um even to even encouraging people to uh come on the journey how are we going to adjust adopt ai tools for example how does that how does that work with what you're doing um you know companies need to take people on the journey for that and in order to engage people in order for people to be ready for that they need to be ready to to get stuck in and to move with the organization that's how organizations are going to prosper and succeed going forward and the only way they do that is if people are able to do it with them because often you get companies moving or they've got latest technologies being implemented and they forgot i forgot to change their leadership patterns and they forgot to take people with them so all of the things that i'm talking about um it really links into that ability to move to learn and i'm i'm always disheartened by yeah for instance that the mid-career professionals, even lawyers who feel stuck.

33:16They feel that they're tired of the trajectory. They don't necessarily want to move beyond associate or even partner. And they're thinking, what else am I supposed to do? I've been doing this for as long as I can remember. But look at the wonderful skills that you adopt. You know, as a lawyer, I've developed a level of professionalism when I say I'm going to do something I do it I'm thorough in what I do I believe I deliver good work that's important I've got integrity I developed all of that as part of my service to clients as part of my lawyering being an officer of the court those are transferable of course they are and we have to be able to identify them to articulate that one and to use them and organizations have to learn how to tap into those and that leads nicely onto what i want to ask now around unlocking potential but just want to sort of build on what you're saying so i completely agree i talk a lot of people when i'm wearing my legal recruiting hand around career moves and actually skill stacking you know maybe this job isn't your final destination but there are going to be skills you're going to be able to stack on top of what you've already got that are going to be doubly transferable for x y and z and i think that's talking very nicely to what you're saying there and i say it all the time um to people as well and you're you're absolutely right having that continuous learning mentality and again if you drop the l from learn it spells earn the more you invest in learning the more you will earn and it's just such a simple thing to remember but always be learning every day what are one or two new things what are one one or two percenters i can be changed picking up in my work to make me a sharper better more competitive person particularly in the world of change that we're going through right now so let's get back to unlocking potential because i think that's where you're going there anyway because you really emphasize that statement.

35:02So what do people often get wrong about their own potential? And what actions can those individuals then take to unlock their true potential? People often look at themselves in a one-track way. And we've learned to look at even professions. I think generalizing stereotyping here again that generation z is so much better at looking at career development in a slightly different way so many talk about having portfolio careers I think I've got a bit of a portfolio career now but people that think you know that define themselves in terms of their job title their job description their profession and that doesn't mean you have to be any one way people used to say to me you don't you don't come across like a lawyer well what does that mean what does that mean what's important to me is that i align the technical with all of the other wonderful things um that were going to serve clients in the best way that were going to enhance the way i negotiated the case the way i crafted particulars of a claim or witness statement.

36:16Creativity, that's negotiating power. That's entrepreneurialism. That is all stacking, and that is your superpower. And I've met entrepreneurial accountants. I've met coders who are the communicators. And guess what? They are the ones that prosper going forward. It's important to hone your technical skills, but look at the way things are changing. look at what's happening with technology with ai you have to go above and beyond that and really look at um what skills are we tapping into and i encourage anyone not only to look like that wisdom toolbox that they're bringing but to identify what those skills are don't dismiss them because you think they're soft um or you think it all falls under the blammer of uh you know emotional intelligence and articulate them look at your strengths align what you're doing as much as possible with your strengths or work towards doing that and that that is your value statement whether you're going for a job whether you're transitioning to something else whether you're in a law firm going for a promotion and that is all part of it it's not about your pqe how many years qualified you are um it is not about you know dotting the eyes although that's important too you know um you bring all of this wonderful individual skill set with you and you need to sing about that and be clear about what that is yeah i always say to people a cv is not a description document people think it is it's not it is a sales document on there you need to articulate what you've done, how you did it and the impact you make and shout loud about it as well, because that is ultimately your showing off of the great stuff you've achieved.

38:08And to your point about these skills, yeah, don't dismiss them because maybe it is a soft skill, but actually these little things potentially have huge impacts. It could be a simple tweak that you've noticed. It could be a workflow. It could be a communication style. It could be a social media play, like you say, whatever it is, but don't hide behind that because ultimately it's also not what you say to understand as to how you say it. And if you position it in the right way, it will land with the relevant people and you'll be able to actually make that impact. You've referenced throughout this conversation, Cypriot background and the Cypriot family.

38:35And thank you for being so open about that. And I think there is a leadership lesson you've garnered from a Greek Cypriot kitchen. So could you tell us what's the timeless lesson from home that still guides you today? Oh God, I gave a speech called Leadership Lessons from a Greek Cypriot Kitchen. I first gave that speech about three years ago to a really impressive global audience of leaders. And I just thought, oh, I don't know how this is going to land. What a weird title. That was about something I've mentioned before, bringing the principles of hospitality to work and leadership. The fact that we were always trying to present the best version of our home, giving the best bedding to everyone, or, you know, passing across the remote control to give them a good experience.