Crypto, Courts & Career Growth: The Next Generation in Law - Charlotte Hill - S9E30

0:00If you don't have a network, if you don't show a pipeline that you can bring in work in the future, typically you're not going to make partner. I mean, I now talk quite a bit about AI with deep fake evidence. You're trying to work out actually how to minimise things like that that you could be receiving from another party, particularly if they're used to litigating in other jurisdictions. I tend to find that sometimes riskier. So you have to work out where those pressure points are and just plan ahead. Every day I wake up to a new email because the market's rallied or it's crashed or there's a new coin out, a new meme coin.

0:31And I just think it's just so interesting that it means that I just really enjoy what we do. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Charlotte Hill. Charlotte is a partner at Pennington's Manchester Cooper, specializing in commercial dispute resolution, financial services regulation, restructuring and insolvency. Described as a next generation partner by the Legal 500, Charlotte is passionate about her work in the sector and has been awarded Women of the Year FinTech and Crypto Innovation UK at the City Wealth Power Women Awards. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Charlotte.

1:04Thank you so much for having me, Rob. I'm really pleased to be here. Ah, super excited to have you on the show today. And before we dive into your amazing career and all the things you're doing in and around the world of law, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10 with 10 being very real what would you rate the hit tv series suits in terms of its reality of the law if you've seen it i have seen i've seen all of them i absolutely wow um i would say the reality is now we're on probably a two or a three but pre-pandemic given that everybody used to be in the office and was walking around in their power suits and in court all the time.

1:45At that point, I would have gone about five or six. There we go. And very justified in your answer. And with that, we can move swiftly on to all about you. So to begin with, Charlotte, would you mind telling us our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? Yeah, sure. So I've always wanted to be a lawyer. Ever since I was 10 years old, apart from I think I had about one week where I wanted to be a surgeon because I'd watched Casualty one night. Then I thought, no, that's not for me. And yeah, I always wanted to go into the law. I didn't quite know what type at that time, obviously being so young, but I was always quite focused and ambitious and aimed for that, despite coming from a really ordinary sort of working class background, state school educated and the like.

2:24And so I spent sort of a couple of years going around universities. I think I went to Nottingham Law School, did a sort of a long weekend there when I was about 15 to look into it. Really put me off Nottingham because where they stayed was really smelly and one of those sort of old rooms that probably doesn't exist anymore. But straight away, I thought, right, Nottingham's not for me. And yeah, I was really kind of looking into the criminal bar to begin with, actually, and took some mini pupillages and thought, and after having some awful stories and things in court that I'd heard, I just thought that's not for me, sadly.

2:57And so, yeah, I know I went to did my A-levels, went to Cardiff Uni, read law there because I really fancied the rugby weekends and thought it was great fun. You know, great law school as well, but I kind of looked at for the social part as well. And I really moved on from there and found my first job straight out of law school in London at a smaller boutique litigation firm. Really cut my teeth on some really interesting cases just out of the recession. So it was a really interesting time. Lots of subprime lending issues going on and ended up straight into litigation, which wasn't what I thought having been through, having read law at uni and then been through law school, wasn't at all what I thought I was going to do.

3:39I remember being in law school hating learning about the civil procedure rules and thinking this white book is so dry. And anyway, yeah. And then I got into practice and suddenly I was like, this is fun. It's like playing chess. You know, we've got a strategy. We've got some fast paced work. I've got some deadlines. And that compared to when I was sitting in kind of the M &A and corporate seats at that time because of recession were just dead. And we were just article writing and things really, really stuck out for me. And so, yeah, I qualified 2013, I think it was, stayed at that firm for a few years, really cutting my teeth.

4:16Being in a smaller firm meant I could really sort of get stuck in and get involved in some of these cases. And I was running my own cases in litigation from day one as a qualified solicitor, which was brilliant. And then I moved to PMC, Pennington's Manchester Cooper, 2016 as an associate and have worked up through and now find myself as one of our 16 partners in our team in commercial disputes. Absolutely. And hugely successful and high flying. And I guess that leads nicely to what I was going to ask next. Typical day. You know, you are a partner, as you say, at the firm. What does that look like for you?

4:53Talk us through it. there is no typical day and I know that's so cliched I'm sorry for saying it but it's just so varied you know I try and have one or two days where I work from home if I can to lock myself away and really get my head down um and progress some of my matters for my clients and strategize and the like and set direction for my team to go about um and do what they need to do but then equally I could be at a conference speaking um I do quite a bit of that I could be um traveling to meet a client somewhere, you know, could well be partner meetings, team meetings, talking about recruitment and firm strategy and the like.

5:31So it's really varied. But that's what I really like about it. Because I think if I had the same kind of work every day, I would definitely get bored. Yeah. And I like that mixture where it I mean, at times, it's obviously really challenging, right? We all have to juggle so many balls, but it keeps me on my toes, which is what I really enjoy about it. Yeah, I love that. And I like dynamic days. A lot of listeners know, you know, I wear a few hats across sort of, you know, businesses, recruiting, podcasting, getting to speak to great voices like yourself. And I think it keeps you energized as well, I find when you've got sort of different things coming at you.

6:03And I want to talk about the kind of leaning onto culture and team a little bit, because your firm were recognized in the lawyer's latest report as one of the top three of the top 50 UK law firm for female partner promotions since 2020. So managing your team as a partner at the firm, how do you create a more open and inclusive environment so others in your team can come to you when they need help? First and foremost, you have to lead by example. And I think it's talking on opportunities like this and other platforms where you're able to talk about what's been hard for you and what is a challenge as an individual, let alone as a female or different things that we all have going on that are challenges for us individually and so talking about what's hard talking about what's worked for us um and as I say leading by example and actually showing I mean I very much um I talk to my team about when I take time out and why I'm taking time out and actually the fact that I'm the same look I just need an hour to switch off you know I need to go to the gym I need to take my dog for that walk whatever it is I just need to clear my head and being really open and honest about that which then I hope encourages juniors to adopt a similar approach or at least to have that discussion with me or with somebody else in the team if they feel they need to um yeah i mean i'm so proud that statistic when that came out so proud i mean as a firm we've we've done amazingly i mean there's always more work to do on those sorts of statistics and generally in the de and i space um but we've got i mean our ceo is female um when you add in our heads of departments across um our strategy board we've got more uh females than male now only just but we've got more females and obviously we're very much growing as you say statistically with partner promotions and I was one of those in that promotion round that was mentioned and it's great having just a real mix of normal people working together to you know lead a firm and that I hope really does set that example for juniors to see that actually that is achievable if that's what they want to do and that there's a path through for them and one of the ways that we very much have worked quite hard recently is to enhance our parental rights responsibilities and the like.

8:14So, you know, a lot more people now across the firm can take a lot more opportunity to take time out and to share, you know, when you've got young children, which is one of the big barriers, isn't it, to particularly females going up to partnerships. Sadly, many still feel they have to step out and therefore career takes a sidestep. But we've now got many opportunities where lots of actually, in fact, most, I think the last three lots of parental leave in my team have all been males taking sort of six months plus off to be able to take that time with their family and to let their partner go back to work if that's what they want to do which is great and I think hopefully should become the norm for everybody going forward.

8:51Yeah because they are you know speaking as a girl down here they're precious moments aren't they you know and I think you don't get those back and I think there's also great initiatives like the future president a few years out Donna Denise Smith who's been on the show friend of ours over here he's doing great things with like Oblix support and, you know, really trying to help. So people, like you say, you know, understand that they can still have the career and have a family in conjunction. And I love that you talk about authenticity. You know, you're leading with authenticity, aren't you, with what you're saying in terms of because we're all human, you know, and I think actually leading with some vulnerability at times to say, I need this break or actually I don't have the answers right now.

9:23We'll come back to it. I think it just makes people feel like they're a safe space. And it's that human to human connection you have with people and you build trust and safe spaces. And then within that, people then can can grow. Okay, I want to talk now about switching lanes quite drastically to crypto and cybersecurity, because you specialize in an area I'm all in and fascinated on in terms of emerging tech and digital assets disputes. So that is sort of all things crypto, cyber. So where did your interest in these areas specifically come from? Do you know what? It's a really roundabout way how I've ended up leading the firm's digital asset team.

9:56it's not a kind of a clear path it was just it was about 2017 i just started learning probably quite late to the party sadly i found a bit of it earlier i would have invested in the bitcoin but i'm just thinking well this is really interesting and my background is financial services litigation fraud and asset tracing and a bit of insolvency and i could just see this new asset class coming through thinking well i'm going to be litigating about this one day you know there's no two ways about it this is coming at some point in the future so I better kind of clue up about it and so I just started um you know reading books listen to podcasts all the kind of usual sort of stuff just when you when you're interested in something quite genuinely and just from a pure um sort of tech industry perspective rather than from a legal perspective um and then yeah that's when I started kind of pulling the two together and thinking well here's some you know there's some common synergies here this is going to be really interesting and so it really just developed from there and then I remember going to um crypto con in Gibraltar um which was really good fun and met loads of people in the industry and that was about early 2019 I think it might have been um and just starting to get into it and so I've started speaking about it um you know talking to my team about it and realizing actually across our firm we had a lot of people that had similar interests and actually had a lot of expertise that they could bring from not just litigation but from all sides of sort of because we're a full service firm so all sides of the coin and could work you know build this team together and so yeah here I am years later as I say leading this multi-disciplinary team across multi various different offices we've got at PMC all about digital assets emerging tech and it's just a really interesting space and I think if you enjoy what you do then actually the rest just comes naturally and you know from a disputes perspective you know as litigators or disputes practitioners you know our expertise is is that is litigation for example actually it's not about a certain um industry necessarily some some do and some go in quite bespoke areas but i keep my practice quite broad on purpose and so actually you can quite quickly subsume yourself into these new industries and once you can talk the talk and understand some of the lingo it's brilliant fun you know it's always changing every day i wake up to a new email because the market's rallied or it's crashed or there's a new coin out, a new meme coin.

12:23And I just think it's just so interesting that it means that I just really enjoy what we do. Love it. And there's some really good lessons in there as well. And because we're recording just before 12, it's a GM to you in crypto language as well, right? GM, GM. But I think there's something, a lesson in there around, particularly in the world of AI that we're living now, that you were curious as a growth mindset, you're reading about you were leaning into where the puck is going the famous Wayne Gretzky quote that we all know just where the puck is going and as a result of that birth opportunities for you from a career perspective and actually probably put yourself out of your comfort zone like you said going to events speaking maybe where you're not the expert but start now and then grab our expertise over time and and you'll develop and I think there's a really nice success story there to where you are obviously now in terms of leading so people that are sort of observing things that are going on and looking forward to take action go to those events say yes to that speaking opportunity go and connect with somebody like Charlotte and you'll be amazed about what could happen.

13:18OK, just diving a little bit deeper then in terms of the types of works. I know it's super interesting for people who may be wanting a little bit more understanding of like what things you're involved in. Could you give us a bit of your diet of work that you're involved in and what some of the cases might look like? Yeah, yeah, sure. So from a disputes perspective, most of the disputes in this industry have been around fraud. So unfortunately, as we know, there have been so many scams and Ponzi schemes and the like that have come out using crypto for obvious reasons. And so the first one I was involved in that was reported was a case where I was actually defending one of the companies that had innocently received some stolen Bitcoin.

13:55And this poor chap who'd had, I think, roughly about eight million pounds worth of Bitcoin stolen had gone after 20 odd parties. And so my client was one of those parties that was caught up essentially in this fraud, but completely innocently. And so we defended that and we managed to get the case against our client discontinued. all of their assets had been frozen we got the freezer lifted client could then eventually walk away but it was one of the it was a I think it was the first reported case that had been contested because prior to that point in 2020 I think it was trying to think now which year we're in prior to that point it was just simply one party was going to court it was against persons unknown my bitcoin for example has been stolen can we freeze it can we protect it and ideally if I've got proprietary interest, can I get it back?

14:40So that was kind of the start of these sorts of cases. And since then, there've been lots of contested cases of similar vein where there's a fraud or somebody somehow lost their crypto and they're trying to get it back. The good news for me is that we are now, I mean, that's still around, unfortunately. And I've got at the moment, I've got another case where I've got 100 odd claimants that are looking to pursue a fraudster and get their crypto back. So that still goes on. But they are now just moving to more mature disputes. They're now just quite normal business-to-business disputes. I had one last year, last summer, actually.

15:18It kept my summer very busy, which I hadn't planned, but it was great. One of my clients is a UK exchange, and one of their contractors had, they alleged, stolen sensitive data in order to set up a competing business. And so we were having to deal with that. obviously get that data back and look to injunction we've got an injunction against that individual to stop them advancing a competing business and that was going on to a speedy trial and we managed again to compromise that and settle that then they now just move on to like I say business to business disputes normal contractual disputes all the sort of usual disputes that we as commercial litigators see the difference though is I would say and I think my clients would probably agree you can't unfortunately just have a normal a normal litigator who doesn't understand this space dealing with it or not as easily because you do need to understand the industry it's very different being in the defy world decentralized finance world offline you know there's nowhere it's really hard when you're trying to grapple with jurisdiction and things where you're going to logically claim what how you're able to do it how you're able to recover it all these sorts of things um and if you don't understand that the decentralized nature of it and indeed the type of people that tend to operate in this space, then arguably you're not going to get the same sort of results.

16:34And so that's where I think, and there's a lot of very good litigators now in London, particularly that are in this space. I mean, I don't know if you know, I'm part of the CIFAR network. I'm a director there, which was established many years ago now, which is exactly that. It's a group of like-minded lawyers, practitioners, experts and the like that all come together that work for the greater good to promote this industry that we have, because it's an amazing space. And actually, this sort of DeFi space, as we're calling it, will seem to become normal. It will become sort of the TragFy normal traditional finance.

17:09And we're all going to be talking about it like it's never been brand new in five years time, I think. Exactly. And that's the way I see it. Of course, it takes time for adoption, and it takes time for everyone to kind of see it, but it's absolutely going to happen. And that's why we want to have these sort of conversations and educate people and the professionals doing work in and around it and indeed the good work that you're doing and sharing your message. You've touched across a number of different work experiences you've had. Is there one particular memorable case you've had to date that you'd like to share with us?

17:37And if so, why? I don't think there's one in particular. The sort of work I enjoy the most, actually, I mean, I love working for big global companies for a whole variety of reasons. But the ones that really stick with me are the businesses that I'm acting for that are family-led businesses you know there could be massive corporate structures but you've still got that family at the top of the group that are controlling it and and for me actually being able to achieve whatever the result is that they're looking for um or to stop that piece of litigation before it snowballs or whatever it is is really satisfying because you know you you see the cash moving whichever way it's going to move and you've managed to mitigate the risk or bring in some damages or whatever it is for them.

18:22But actually seeing that personal effect on them as a family, as you say, that human element, that's what really makes it for me. And that's when you think actually that was worth those really long hours that myself and my team worked and all the blood, sweat and tears that we shared as a result. You think that, yeah, it really sort of makes it worthwhile. And it's that intrinsic value, isn't it? You know, you've helped out a family at the end of the day. in what it would be. You used the word there, which I wanted to ask you next, actually, at least nicely on around risk, because when you are advising on these big cross-border litigation, especially multiple jurisdictions, what is your actual approach to managing the legal risk?

18:59It really varies depending on what the type of risk is and what the client's goal is. So it could simply be a case where you say to your client, you know, you're defending a matter and essentially say, look, you know, you're going to have to pay something here, or you're going to have to pay probably some large sums um you know obviously you're not telling your opponent any anywhere near that but you know when you're advising the client you know you are on the hook here so what can we do to minimize that for you and actually what is that risk is it just financial is it reputational is it you know it could well put your company into restructuring or insolvency processes trying to work out for them where the real pressure points are and then work out a roadmap in order to get them the best outcome for them at that time.

19:44And it's quite likely, particularly if you're defending an action, it's not going to be one that they ever want, sadly. But it's still trying to work out what that best worst outcome is for them, and then position them in a way strategically, as I say, to strategize to get them there at a certain point in time. The other way, of course, is the claimant is you've got other risks coming at you where suddenly, you know, there could be unknown pieces of evidence that come out. I mean, I now talk quite a bit about AI with deep fake evidence, you're trying to work out actually how to minimize things like that that you could be receiving from another party particularly um if they're used to litigating in other jurisdictions um i tend to find that sometimes riskier so you have to work out again it's where those pressure points are and and just plan ahead and do what you can at all times and i think always for me particularly when i talk to my clients i always say let's just take a step back let's just reflect you know like we can get into the detail we will get into the detail but high level let's just reflect on what we really want here um and then And we'll find a way through it.

20:40Today's episode is brought to you by Clio, leaders in legal tech and the team behind one of the most exciting AI launches this summer. Clio Duo is arriving this summer and it's already creating a stir. Built right into Clio Manage, Duo uses AI to help you draft emails, capture time, summarize documents automatically. It's smart, seamless, and designed to save you hours every week. Find out more and see what Clio Duo can do for your firm at clio.com forward slash UK. Now back to the show. I love how you're just transparent. You know, you gave an example there before where it's like, you are going to have to pay something here.

21:16And I think sometimes clients respect that, don't they? I think the worst thing that can happen is mismanagement of clients' expectations or, you know, the silver bullets that, you know, that just for whatever reason, it doesn't exist. And I think that's a really smart area where lawyers can learn from that in terms of, you know, not every case is probably going to be exactly this silver bullet and exactly that. But I think you're going to do your absolute best and tell them that, the strategy and keep constant communication and do absolutely everything in your power. But the reality is this. And I think that brings a lot more mutual respect.

21:45You used the word AI there. Of course, we're talking a lot about AI on the show and we'll continue to do so probably till the end of time, given the way it's going. But when it comes to your actual practice area, AI and indeed automation becoming even more prominent in legal practice, how do you see tech playing a really key role in litigation now and moving forward? I mean, it's here already, right? As in, generally, but for litigation in particular, and it's only going to grow. I'm fortunate. I'm on our firm's working AI policy group. So we've brought in a lot of people all across the firm to sort of develop this policy.

22:22And we're taking a cautious approach, I'd say, actually, you know, we haven't jumped in like some others have and brought, you know, all of the singing and dancing pieces of AI that should do everything that still doesn't, arguably. but we are bringing in and we're very much looking at business use cases and we are using AI tools for the right job and so for example our real estate team have got the most amazing piece of software that can analyze titles in seconds rather than weeks and I had a big property fraud recently where they had exactly that there was 150 odd properties they need to look at as to whether my client even owned the properties and if so what the terms were and the leases and the like and within about half a day they'd produce this most amazing schedule for me that I could then analyze and manipulate and understand in order to deal with this fraud um so you know we are using it litigation wise I mean we're using it in terms of we have you know the sort of AI research tools um we are looking to bring AI into our document management system to help kind of just you know summarizing things and checking compliance points and things like that um we're not yet using it for or I mean obviously we use it for things like doc review and things but we're not yet using it for testing of evidence and witness statements and the like and I know that's something I've been speaking actually with some of the judges about that at various different events with the LSLA and that's something that the courts are very much still grappling with and whether that's going to be even permitted and if so quite how and whether we need to be disclosing that and being transparent with our opponents and with the court so we're not yet using it for that purpose but I know other firms are and I've heard actually really positive things about it so I think it's here to stay and I think actually we all very much need to get on board with it because the problem is if we don't now even though a lot of it isn't yet perfect six months time we're going to be so much further behind and then trying to play catch up will be nigh on impossible exactly we've had Piers Linney from from Jagan's Den um co-founder of Implement AI come on and you know we've done a lot of collaboration together actually and he talks a lot about the ship has left the harbour yeah so you know that is not turning around whether you like it or lump it is going in that direction and now if you haven't adapted you need to at least start to try and play a level because it's just going to continually go at exponential fast speed so i think like you say is absolutely so so so true um okay we've talked a lot about sort of you know there are lawyers in the crypto space there are some in the dispute space i would argue there's room for more so some lawyers are perhaps hesitant in terms of engaging with crypto disputes.

24:50So what would you say to those who might be unsure about stepping into this space, potentially future lawyers as well? Well, I think flipping, future lawyers, I mean, this is such a great space for them. I mean, assuming, and typically most of my juniors do, assuming that as a junior you have an interest in tech and, you know, these new modern ways of the world, like I say, this kind of DeFi space. Because I do think if you don't have an interest, just don't bother, to be perfectly frank because you'll only go so far if it's just because you think i should do this for my career um but if you're into it i think actually you know as you said earlier rob i think raise your hand you know come along to these events speak to to me to my peers to my colleagues um to others in this industry and actually just ask questions because we all have to start somewhere um as you say you know we're all human we're all perfectly nice and normal most of us are um and you know we will happily i mean i will chat to my heart's content you know about this, I could chat about this all day, this sort of interesting area.

25:46So I think just get involved and get stuck in. I think for those that are already, you know, have their own experiences in different areas, I think so long as you are using the right experts, who obviously understand the industry really well, and so long as you're using the right barristers as well, you know, as solicitors that can advocate properly for you to explain it properly, I think there is space. However, there are some people out there, unfortunately, that say they can they understand it and just don't because they just think it is just another asset class. And so we can deal with it like we can deal with sterling.

26:23And unfortunately, you just can't. It is just different. And unless you're going to invest the time and the energy and really understanding it properly. And actually, unless you're going to get into the industry and meet the key players in the industry who will gladly help you and educate you again from an industry perspective, a technical perspective. then I just think, again, I think don't bother because there's so many other areas of law out there, particularly litigation that you could get into. So if you're doing it just because you think you should and you need to jump on that bandwagon, I would say forget it.

26:55But if you've got any element of an interest, come along to, you know, CIFAR events and other events that various different communities organise and just get stuck in because we all want to share. We all recognise actually there's going to be so much work. Well, there's already so much work out there for us all. there's going to be a lot more so it's not as though we're all trying to keep it just for ourselves and we're going to have a battle it's not that kind of community so i think get stuck in and see what happens and the word that community it's something i'm i'm super passionate about and believe in and lots of people like to say to me rob i've seen another legal podcast are you are you worried or i've seen no i think it's good i think it's you know where there's where there's things happening shows us demand shows us interest shows us growth and people you know if you're good enough you're always going to be able to find enough anywhere and i think a good point you mentioned there is meant to be very early on every master's wants a disaster right just start like just start grapple understand learn as you go along and i think that's been a good theme throughout this discussion okay one of the things that get talks about regularly when it comes to crypto of course is regulation um so do you believe there's enough regulation surrounding crypto and if not what changes would you like to see the government actually implement a good question that there is more talk now about future regulation and the fca has finally started to sort of get its wheels in motion and and there's you know there's now going to be regulating stable coins and they're looking at um you know kind of all the etfs and the like which are now around for retail customers so there is regulation in place and there is going to be more regulation over the next coming years the whole aim behind regulation as we know is to protect particularly from the fca perspective to protect consumers and the real risk here and as i said a lot of the disputes that have gone on so far in this industry are about fraud and unfortunately they are you know joe blogs off the street who's invested his pension or something in crypto and sadly doesn't understand it properly and it has been you know it ruins their lives yeah so regulation does need to happen without a doubt and that protection needs to be in place the problem is a lot of the regulation that's been there so far or the little that there is has been stymieing business and has been preventing it from growing and testing and developing as it should as most sort of startup industries need to um to find out what works what doesn't work you know how we need to move different paths and things and so as a result a lot of businesses have either not not grounded themselves in the uk and when they were looking at jurisdiction shopping where to go they've decided not not to come here or they've left here and that you know that was particularly three four five years ago now and you know people were looking for licenses and the like and actually the fc were just taking so long they said right well we're out you know you're asking far too many questions or whatever it is so i think there's a balance to be had and i don't think we're there yet i think there is still more work that needs to be done i think the law commission have been doing great work though they've they've been lobbying um parliament but they've also been collaborating with industry with the legal teams and and as a result they've been feeding that back and having that bridge has been really helpful and I think that's the way this needs to continue going with the FCA as they do actually you know I'm seeking consultations and feedback but actually people putting in the time and effort to complete those consultations and providing that feedback because if we don't tell the FCA what is or isn't working for our clients and if our clients don't do that then they're never going to improve so I think again it kind of goes back to that collaboration piece that I think has to happen in order for the greater good to go forward yeah and my listeners will be sick to death of me saying it but collaboration is domination it's so so true and you were touching there around the the FCA so it's going to be my next question actually because you you have featured on other podcasts which again we absolutely support the the Legal 500 Legal Landscapes podcast where you discussed actually the Property Digital assets bill and the fca's evolving role as you're touching on there so for businesses what are the key developments they need to know aimed at actually tackling illegal crypto activity in your opinion i think it is understanding how they can operate within the legal framework within the uk and that isn't unfortunately that straightforward an answer um and the problem is a lot of these businesses are coming in at a startup point where clearly they don't have much budget to spend and this kind of advice isn't quick and easy and therefore it's not cheap and so you know unfortunately we have many clients that come to us and things start to go wrong and at that point they say well we need help and then you really have to help them unpick the situation and then build it back up properly by which point if you're looking at getting regulated or you're already regulated in some way shape or form you've lost the fca faith and you have to start to build it back up so i actually think it is starting from the ground up working with these businesses at whatever level and whatever budget they have to help them navigate their business case and whatever it is they're trying to achieve so you know if they are trying to sell into the UK market then suddenly they've got lots of FCA perimeter work around them that they need to be complying with and it's helping them build those blocks as they grow and again managing that risk because there's always a risk and it's just working out how we can reduce that as much as possible and indeed how our clients can show to the regulators that they're doing what they can within their ambit in order to protect the people that need protection while developing the business.

32:20I love that point. So, you know, the point you mentioned there is like doing what you can actually showing you're doing because doing nothing is a risk, right? And so, you know, what you're alluding to there is what, again, when I first started setting up businesses, it's getting the right infrastructure or getting the absolute best because otherwise you could be building on quicksand and that could potentially cause you catastrophic errors. Typically when the business first starts, unless it's a really key piece of IP or there's some form of technology that you know has got exponential growth, the business is worth nothing.

32:45But actually, over time, it's going to accrue value in some capacity. And if you've not got the right infrastructure or continually working on managing that risk, as you say, then you potentially are decreasing, depending on what your goals are. But if you're looking for an exit or acquisition or raising, these are super important things. And that's why getting good quality counsel is so, so vital. And OK, I want to talk about some of your wider roles. And there's a fair few here because you're the chair of the AMIR for Multilawes Young Lawyers Group, vice chair of the Cyber Insurance Association.

33:12Vice Chair of the Law Society's Civil Justice Committee. I've probably missed a load as well, but just talking through each of those roles, what projects have you contributed to and most proud of? Oh gosh, yeah like you say I've done lots and this goes back to I think some of the the early bits we were discussing sort of as a junior, I was always really keen to get involved in networks. I recognised really early on the value of a network and I just love meeting people and picking their brains actually. I'm just really nosy, probably why I'm a good litigator. I have a thirst for for information and for knowledge so uh yeah i got involved i mean i got involved really early on with um the junior london solicitors litigation association and led there as the president and then went on to the main committee when i sadly got too old i couldn't be part of the real fun ones but so from the lsla that then opened up a whole other raft of doors for me and that's when i first learned about the law society council having a role available and so i represent at the moment civil litigators all civil litigators across the country apart from personal injury which is a terrifying number of people trying to represent and advocate for them um but actually being involved in the law society and that's how i know dana dennis smith really well as well um it has has been really really interesting because you sit there and you learn about i mean you know i'm a litigator in london i do cross-border fraud commercial dispute type work you know it's very bespoke when you and i realized that and i on that when you then look at actually what say for example all civil litigators do and you hear about the guy in wherever up north that is a one-man band or two-man band having these really awful experiences to do with you know court backlogs in the county courts or whatever it is and it's really eye-opening and actually being able to advocate for everybody in that sphere um and to try to push forward reform for the greater good has has been yeah i've been really proud of doing that i think it's been an amazing um experience and and again it's kind of opened other doors so as you say on the civil justice committee which then we're inputting into you know sort of all the um cost reform and funding reforms and changes in the cpr and various different things so again that kind of brings it back for me for my job and what civil litigators do then we can then have an influence on that and share our experiences to then shape it for the greater good for our clients who choose to litigate in this jurisdiction.

35:34And it speaks to so many things that I talk about, which is the two I's really in business, which is either having good quality information or good quality influence. And you do that through what I describe as NSN, never stop networking, right? And you're continuously doing that and building around and wrapping around networks. And even for our listeners that know for the show, you know, even though we're 400 odd episodes in, we first started our first ever episode, to remember to this day, with the London Young Lawyers Group, because we knew that was an access community at the time that was ran by the brilliant Oliver Haddock, who's now running the careers edit, and obviously Nicola, who's fantastic.

36:04And, you know, that was a way to kind of build and get noticed and network and new opportunities come up the back of that. And like you say, the more you kind of immerse yourself and get into this networking and growth mindset, the more things come your way. Absolutely love it. And I know you do a lot to help the next generation, particularly, you know, something passionate about yourself. So is there anything in particular people listening to this that you do in terms of helping them that's worth just flagging? Yeah I think there actually is Rob. Myself and Maria Miller a barrister at Maitland Chambers created a network called A Mindful Lawyer.

36:39Three years ago now I think honestly I lose track of time. Time just I would have said a year ago but it's definitely we've definitely had at least three years worth of events now and ironically we started this network after a couple of glasses of wine and some dinner and Maria won't mind me sharing her story with you which was that she said this has been lovely Charlotte but I now need to get home my at that time her one-year-old daughter you know has gone to bed you know I didn't get to see her tonight but I'd love to get up early and spend some time with her tomorrow before she goes to nursery I go to work yeah and actually we then said well why do we always have to network like this why does it have to be into an evening having some drinks I mean don't get me wrong I absolutely love doing that I'm all for it but you know why do we have to do that all the time why can't we network in the morning or at lunch time or whenever throughout the day that suits us and why why can't we do something that isn't always having a few drinks and then not feeling the best the next day and so we created a mindful lawyer with a view to doing just that networking differently essentially and it was aimed particularly at and it is aimed particularly at what's all levels but I particularly wanted to to do this to help my juniors because the new um cohort of juniors coming through typically you know want different things now they don't want to be working necessarily such long hours they don't want to be going out of an evening eating and drinking getting in late feeling tired not being able to go to the gym you know it's just a different um sort of vibe i suppose as to what i grew up when i was training mine was a very different thing but you know accepting that and embracing that and actually encouraging that is something I really wanted to do.