DJ Justice: Laurence Lieberman on Legal Careers, Music & Why Lawyers Should Be More Human - S10E23

0:00The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:Take the crowd on a journey. The big part of success in DJing or being in the band is reading your audience. You know, the signals, some of which are actually unspoken. I think it's useful and it's a similar sort of skill set to when you're working the room at a conference or you're in a pitch meeting or even presenting to a board on litigation strategy. Start the way you need to go on. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be shy about your little hobbies or passions or quirks. They are a part of what makes you interesting to work with. They're always going to be a value in the workplace, even if you're not sure yet how that's going to play out.

0:41Laurence Lieberman:On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Lawrence Lieberman. Lawrence is a partner in the London office of Pillsbury, where he specializes in complex, high value and often cross-border business disputes resolved through court litigation and international arbitration. He has more than 25 years of experience with deep expertise across technology, life sciences and financial services, as well as a longstanding work connected to India and Israel. Alongside all of that, Lawrence also has a creative side many in law may not expect. He is a lead vocalist, performs in a band and DJs under the name DJ Justice.

1:19Laurence Lieberman:So today we're not just talking about dispute strategy and high level performance legal work. We're also talking about identity, confidence, passion, and why keeping a hold of your creative side may actually make you a better lawyer. With that, a very big warm welcome to the show, Lawrence.

1:35The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

1:38Laurence Lieberman:Oh, it's actually a pleasure to have you on the Legally Speaking Podcast. Really looking forward to today's discussion. Before we get into that, we have a couple of serious icebreaker questions here on the Legally Speaking Podcast, which are, what is your favorite beverage and what is your

1:50The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day ah okay uh so favorite beverage i've got a bit of a soft spot for passion fruit martinis nice um for footwear on a work day i mean i tend to wear broves or something smart like that i had also do have a bit of an obsession with sneakers so when i'm not at work um i have got quite a big collection of sneakers particularly the brand why three. That's my thing outside of the office.

2:21Laurence Lieberman:Like it. Well, thank you for sharing both of those with us. And before we get too into that discussion, we must talk about you, of course, and your career. So to begin with, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey and also what drew you towards a career in law and very complex disputes?

2:36The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:Yeah, of course. So I studied law at university. I didn't actually find it particularly stimulating, if I'm honest. And I wasn't really sure it was it was the career for me. But then actually, you know, getting a job and working as a lawyer was just completely different. You know, it all brought it to life. So I trained at Simmons and Simmons. I joined DLA Piper on qualification. I moved to Taylor Wessing in 2008 as a partner. And then I've been at Pillsbury for about 18 months. And then as for my chosen area of practice, I mean, I just right from a trainee, I just always loved disputes. I loved the drama of it.

3:19The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:I love trying to persuade my opponents to my point of view. I love the process. I like going to court. And, you know, with no offense to my transactional colleagues, it feels like real law. It's breach of contract and it's taught injunctions, citing case law and so on. So that's my path so far.

3:40Laurence Lieberman:And what a fabulous path. And I mean, it's been all positive. And I know we'll come on some career challenges later on, but huge congratulations on what you have achieved thus far, because you spent more than 25 years handling major business disputes across technology, life sciences, financial services, also with a very strong international dimension across India, Israel, North America. I could go on. So I guess reflecting on that, what has that taught you about judgment, strategy and resolving high stakes matters across borders?

4:10The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:Yeah, gosh, I can't believe it's more than 25 years. I think I think perspective is really important. And as my career has gone on, I think that's become more and more central. So what do I mean by that? Well, you know, obviously in this job, it's really important to be obsessed with the detail of the case. Right. So in a document, every date, every word can change the outcome. But you also have to be able to step back and stand above it all and work out what matters and where you need to be in a month or three months or six months. And without that, you can't really advise the clients properly on what's important and what's just noise.

4:55The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:I think you also need to be open to pivoting when necessary you need to be resilient obviously it's a job which can be a hard slog at times and you always need to be thinking about what the client's commercial goals are and then I guess there's also the cultural piece particularly in an international disputes practice so you're dealing with clients from different parts of the world. So I think, you know, emotional intelligence and adaptability are really important as well.

5:27Laurence Lieberman:Yeah, no, absolutely. And thanks for giving such a sort of rounded answer when it comes to that. You joked earlier about the transactional side of law. For our listeners who may not be as quite as well versed in the world of disputes as yourself, how would you explain what you actually do day to day as a partner handling these kinds of complex matters and perhaps how that changes versus being an associate?

5:47The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:I mean, I suppose, I mean, taking the last question for I essentially run my own business in some ways. And so I'm responsible for getting the work and managing the work. And ultimately, the buck stops with me. So I'm, you know, I'm responsible for the running of the case and the outcome. And so that's a different dynamic and a different pressure to, you know, to being an associate. And at least when I was an associate. In terms of the day-to-day job, I've got in mind an arbitration that I ran for most of last year, which was all to do with damage to a facility that manufactured high-end optics and mirrors.

6:33The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:And so in a big, technical, complex case like that, there's obviously lots of competing deadlines. So let's say you've got to be filing a witness statement or an expert report or a written submission. so I'll meet with my team usually at the start of the week and we plan what's going to happen that week so who's going to take responsibility for which work stream timings to produce internal drafts getting client comments and then finessing everything before it goes out the door to in that case the tribunal and and the opposing lawyers so that's the kind of high level planning piece and then obviously we need to get into the meat of it.

7:12The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:So what facts and evidence do we need to prove, for example, a breach of contract? So we interview the client, interview witnesses, and draw out the story. So we get them to explain the emails they sent or the WhatsApps they received and understand a little bit about the context for that, what they meant, what was their intentions and so on. Then we need to make sure everything is consistent with the case theory and the pleaded case. There's a lot of cross-referencing and careful cross-checking. And all the way through that process, it's really important that we bring the client along with us.

7:48The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:It's very easy to get really stuck into the detail of it. So we speak to the client regularly. We report to the client on developments in the case, on challenges that arise, on the merits as the merits change, on budgets, how are we doing against our budgets, the costs that are incurred, and all of those sorts of things while the piece of litigation or arbitration unfolds.

8:12Laurence Lieberman:I love that. And again, thanks for sharing it. And I think just from the last couple of responses, I can see why you've been so successful in the sense of you're exceptionally client centric. You know, you're always understanding what are their goals? How can you best be of service to them? How can you add value to them? And then, of course, you take accountability as well and have that leadership frontage. In terms of, as you say, you are ultimately running your own business. You're responsible for the work. You're responsible for, you know, ultimately the delivery. And I think those are two key messages for people to get.

8:36Laurence Lieberman:If you want to be sort of doing high stakes law in the city of London or otherwise, you need to have those leadership. You need to be able to take accountability and you need to understand the commerciality and really what your clients are trying to do and be of service and be of value and build that trust. And ultimately, you know, you'll find yourself on a great path that Lawrence finds him. But I do want to change gears just ever so slightly where we don't normally do this on the show and have, hence why I was really keen to have today's discussion to the other side of Lawrence Lieberman. because you started DJing at the age of 19 and you were already on the decks in your first year at Cambridge running your own club nights and now singing in a band too so where did this love of

9:12The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:music and performance first come from yeah uh no it's lovely to be to be talking about that with you so I was you know I was thinking a bit about this in advance of the show and it's quite an interesting look back because you know I was actually really self-conscious when I was growing up um i was in a few school plays right but everybody was in a school play i didn't do it because i loved that or i sought the limelight so actually i was really nervous um when it came to live performances um i guess i got properly into music in my in my teens and i had quite an eclectic set of bands and artists that i was into from you know billy joel to iron maiden i didn't sing publicly i wasn't in a choir or anything like that and in fact i you know we all sing whatever whatever in, you know, at home or in the car or whatever, but I never thought I had a particularly good voice.

10:03The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:And then for the DJing side of things, so that came long before I started singing in a band. So I turned 18 in 1990 and that was really the time that, you know, house music and clubbing really took off in the UK. and me and close friends just just fell in love with it um i started my uh collection then i spent far too long in record shops in london i mean and at university in cambridge and i ended up spending

10:36Laurence Lieberman:most of my student loan on vinyl yeah i can imagine i bought my decks in my first year at

10:42The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:cambridge i taught myself how to mix how to match the beats how to work out what tracks flowed well into each other of course all this was way before youtube showing you how to do it uh and then i dj'd a parties at college and i started my own night at university called fluid and i played with a guy called matt bowls who's still a friend and he's now a partner at ssq the legal recruitment company and and fluid was really successful so it went from there and then in terms of the the band and joining a band. So that came out of a drunken dinner of dads from my son's reception class at junior school.

11:23The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:And someone said, I don't know, let's form a band. And everybody said, yeah, that's a great idea. And I said, I'll tell you what, I'll sing. And then we found a bass player and a guitarist and a drummer. And I actually thought it was a joke. And I thought it was one of those great ideas that comes on a night out but wouldn't actually happen. but we we got together a couple of weeks later in someone's kitchen and we had our first rehearsal we were pretty rusty but you know the basics were there and then we got a bit more confident um and we played uh some events for friends and family and some work events and we've done quite a few uh a few charitable events and yeah i took to being the lead vocalist pretty quickly and i and And I found a confidence in performing that I didn't really know that I had.

12:12Laurence Lieberman:Brilliant. And I love it. And I love the sort of rich diversity of that and the honesty. It's funny that you said from a drunken night, it brings memories of a friend of mine who had their own bar, which is called the After 9 Bar, which meant anything that was discussed after 9pm could never be happening. Ordinarily, it's probably BS or someone who's a little bit had too many, but that didn't quite work out for you. Actually, the other way is probably After 9 and then the band does happen. So good for you. and i love the story of your own decks as well i just have visualizations of when i was saving up you know scraps of pennies coins what have you to try and buy my first ever decks which i think were newmark tt100 which i was obsessed with and i think roger sanchez was the first first song i had when i was trying to do it and uh yeah just uh absolutely loved uh loved it and you know loved hearing your story so you've mentioned obviously you've hosted these nights you've done these parties across london you perform live you've built up loads of experience behind the decks i've actually seen you live as well at one of your events which we'll talk about a little a bit later on which was brilliant um hosted by actually a former alumni guest of the show buddy eastwood who give a shout out to buddy who kindly connected us is there one memorable funny or i guess chaotic story from a gig or a performance that still sticks with you and if so

13:16The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:why so i can really fortunate uh to have had some some pretty memorable experiences given that you know i'm in an amateur band that only started in in 2019 and then you know covid we didn't play for a couple of years um but i've been i've been really lucky in some of the some of the um events that i've done and a huge highlight for me was playing the main stage at the roundhouse at the taylor weston christmas party in 2023 and roundhouse is a venue that i've always loved and i've you know been to been to gigs there for for a long time and uh we were asked to play and i mean just doing the sound check there was overwhelming you know looking out from the stage to that empty room uh and just thinking about all the music legends that had performed there we had a dressing room backstage and so on and then we ended up playing to an audience of about 400 people and it was a real like pinch me moment um so i think that was you know that was probably my most memorable music performance wow i could just imagine the energy you get from that sort of

14:24Laurence Lieberman:performance as well and probably the pre-nerves and the excitement and i guess one thing we haven't talked about which has sort of escaped us but i want to come back to is your dj name because i love it dj justice um so where did that name come from i could hench a guess but tell our listeners anyway and does the lawyer in you ever show up in your music persona i did a law degree uh

14:46The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:so it was it was sort of inevitable that my my dj name would be would be legally related um and so So DJ Justice, I'm not sure if I came up with it or mates of mine came up with it. But DJ Justice was the name that I was given at university and that's stuck. And last year, together with Chloe Gibbs, I started this club night called Dance Floor, where all the DJs and the guests are from the legal community and we raise money for charity. And I play under the name DJ Justice there. so I don't you know even use Lawrence Lieberman it's DJ Justice for that so I think that's my

15:27Laurence Lieberman:DJ name for good now yeah I love it we love it and yeah I love the events and I would encourage folks to check out I know you post and share on LinkedIn when they're happening so definitely do follow Lawrence we'll get his details at the end of the show to hear about those if you're in the legal community because I think they're brilliant events you put on and all for a great cause as well yeah this all sounds fun but there is a serious point to this point of discussion as well is around the earlier parts in your legal career where you actually kept DJing relatively quiet because of your concern about how it might be perceived professionally.

15:57Laurence Lieberman:So what was behind that thinking at the time? Talk us through it.

16:01The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:Yeah, it's interesting. So as a junior lawyer and a non-partner, and then even as a junior partner, I didn't really talk about it at work. I mean, I look back and I guess I was climbing the ladder and trying to cultivate a professional image. And I think I thought it just might be perceived as a bit alternative, a bit underground or, you know, associated with late nights in smoky rooms and just not very sitting. So I just didn't talk about it very much for a long time.

16:36Laurence Lieberman:That's valid. But there was a turning point where you mentioned before we sort of jumped on here today when you were actually at Taylor Wessing because you were the managing partner there asked you to DJ. And what did that moment actually mean to you at that point in time? And how did it then change your confidence in bringing more of yourself into your legal career?

16:56The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:It was quite a seminal moment. So this was when Shane Gleghorn became a managing partner at Taylor Wessing in 2018. and he wanted to put on an inaugural party at the office and he asked me if I DJ. And, you know, by that point, I'd been a partner for 10 years and I felt like I didn't really have to prove myself anymore. And I was in my mid 40s and I was just at a time in my life where I wanted to be more authentic in the workplace. and you know and all of that also coincided with a time when the profession generally was evolving so you know it was it was around the time that well-being and mental health was being spoken about much more so there was just a lot less stigma around revealing your full self and not feeling judged about it or that it might negatively impact your career so I agreed to play uh and it was very amusing because as people sort of walked into the um the the venue to see me mixing house music on turntables there was just lots of double takes in the room when they thought that's that's that litigation partner on the on the deck uh so it's great it was great no and it's

18:17Laurence Lieberman:great that it's happened and it's great that obviously you've carried that forth now and you know are opening because i want to talk about of you know a bit of an identity crisis potentially within the legal profession you know a lot of what i do day to day is helping people with legal careers new opportunities thinking about things from all spectrums sort of junior to senior why do you think so many lawyers still feel pressure to hide parts of themselves that do not necessarily neatly fit the traditional image of a lawyer whatever you might deem that to be and do you think the profession underestimates the cost of that yeah um well look i mean i suppose

18:51The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:the first thing to say is it's so much better these days uh than it used to be but you know a lot of lawyers i think particularly in private practice still worry about bringing their personal life to the office uh i guess that's partly because it's a it's still a very competitive profession uh and a lot of i suppose particularly up-and-coming lawyers don't want to you know risk promotion issues or progress by not fitting into maybe to management's perception of the sort of keep your head down, work hard, be conservative, legal professional. And I think that's a real shame because it can take its toll.

19:33I mean, obviously in this job, you have to be technically

19:37The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:excellent. You have to build a practice. You have to work the long hours when needed. But certainly, you know my experience as b that it's really liberating to to to talk about you know your interests without fear of judgment or repercussions i and also i think it you know it actually makes you a more interesting hire and that feeling of openness can also remove some of the stress from

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20:44Laurence Lieberman:So help is always there when you need it. Ready to leave frustration behind? Visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and discover why so many UK solicitors choose Clio. Now back to the show. You know, ultimately, what is the differentiator between you if you're a full PQE associate and you've been working on litigation arbitration matters you know maybe there is this interest or hobby you've had that's maybe given you some extra transferable skill sets or networks or things that might be valuable to that next part of your career or journey or indeed the people you may meet through those passions as well and I think you have a more fulfilled career because I think you know work and life should go hand in hand I know we talk a lot about work-life balance but I think if you can just get this sort of you know ability to be more authentic and to be yourself you'll have far more enriched careers and i think the key to that is being in environments where it's accepted lawrence like you said you know you would see it as actually oh that's an interesting part of the profile um i'll be quite interested to meet that individual i'm curious to understand why they were interested in djing what have they learned from that what would be valuable skills that potentially could come to the firm or otherwise so thanks for sharing that one thing you haven't shied away from which again i appreciate the the candor is um the pressures you know and you know performance related to you know big ticket um legal work because you do work on these very high pressure disputes and you know you also perform live which you've touched on what have music and performance taught you about handling your nerves reading a room you've talked about eq a little bit timing and ultimately delivering under that pressure yeah so it's funny because i um long

22:16The Legally Speaking Podcast Host:time ago now but when i was applying for all of my training contracts um i went for an interview what was then Masons, now Pinsome Masons. And as part of the process, I had to do a short speech on the application of DJing to a career as a lawyer. I do think the big part of success in DJing or being in the band is reading your audience and responding to the signals, some of which are actually unspoken often. And I think it's useful and it's a similar sort of skill set to, I don't know, when you're working the room at a conference or you're in a pitch meeting or, you know, even presenting to a board on litigation strategy, right?