How Olliers Solicitors Quadrupled Turnover by Rethinking Criminal Law - Matthew Claughton - S10E30

0:00Matthew Claughton:We have the experience. We love showcasing our experience, our content. We always try and make it educational and have authority and be trusted content. And we encourage staff to contribute content because it's good for them. It's good for their careers. It's good to showcase their knowledge and it benefits the firm as well. So we work hard on that. It's that calmness, the level of confidence and the ability to reset and go through things methodically that's really quite important. We make sure we match the right clients with the right lawyers to deal with problems as they arrive. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Matthew Claughton.

0:38Matthew is the Managing Director of Olias Solicitors, one of the UK's leading criminal defence firms. Since taking full control of the business in 2018, he's helped steer Olliers through major period of growth, quadrupling turnover, strengthening its reputation in a privately funded criminal defense and building a firm widely recognized for its expertise in pre-charge engagement, serious crime, fraud, regulatory work and crisis management. He is ranked as a leading partner by the Legal 500, has been recognized as the Legal 500 Northern Powerhouse Criminal Lawyer of the Year, and is widely regarded as one of the standout names in high stakes criminal defense.

1:15But this conversation is more than the rankings and results. It's what it really takes to be an outstanding criminal defense firm today, how to build a practice around preventing charges, not just winning at trial, and how do you lead through growth without losing standards? And what does it take to stay independent, ambitious and trusted in one of the most pressured areas of legal practice? So a very big warm welcome to the show, Matthew. Hi, you OK? Very much so. Very much looking forward to today's discussion. But we've got a couple of quick fire ice break questions before we get into it. Firstly, what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear on a typical workday?

1:53Matthew Claughton:OK, OK, beverage in the morning is always a coffee. But at the end of the week, nice hot summer day, it's got to be maybe a lager at the end of the garden. So that depends. It depends whether you're in the morning or at the end of the week. There we go. And on your footwear? Rob, I don't know what it is. I don't know. It's kind of a brogy thing. It's comfortable. So that's what I wear. And I'm also really appreciating the commitment to taking the shoe off to show our audience as well. Thank you. That is going above and beyond. Not everyone has managed to do that. But before we go down that rabbit hole, quick fire another question.

2:34What's one piece of legal tech or everyday tech that you're now relying on that you would have thought would have been impossible to dream of using many years ago?

2:42Matthew Claughton:Well, you've got to remember how old I am when I started. So I started in the 80s. We had no computer, it was typewriters, not a fax machine or anything like that. We were contacted by the police, by pagers. so the big thing for me in my career was the arrival of the mobile phone and I probably had one I was an early adopter I think around about 1990 and it meant that you could be contacted by the police in the middle of the night without them having to go to the pager and so on so that's a big one for me yeah absolutely and yeah for me it's how I run everything now off my mobile phone the smartphone and there was no internet but at least you were contactable yep Yeah, absolutely.

3:25I guess that leads nicely to the start of your career. Would you mind telling us a bit about your background and career journey and what drew you to criminal defence work?

3:34Matthew Claughton:I passed my degree in 1985. I didn't really know what to do. So I was not enrolled on a solicitor's qualifications, law size finals. I decided to take care. I became an advice worker and worked at a citizens advice bureau and got good at it. I got good at listening to people's problems, diagnosing them and delivering an answer. And I also used to represent claimants at benefits tribunals. And I realized I could make a difference for my clients. And I was only 21, 22, and it gave me a lot of confidence. And so I decided to do my solicitor's exams and then qualify as a solicitor. So I went from not really knowing what to do with my law degree to realizing I wanted to work with people.

4:22Matthew Claughton:and it was it was with individual clients it wasn't necessarily with for example contracts or conveyancing or anything like that had to be client focused where I really felt I could make a difference for an individual yeah absolutely and you have done that I mean incredible career which we're going to talk more about and I guess so why criminal defense for you though it's obviously one of the most intense very high pressure area of the profession what made you want to particularly specialise within that career area? I think there's something in me that's interested in the area so that was that was that was I definitely had an interest in crime and then when I started going to a police station or I mean I just thought it was so exciting being in the police station being in a prison being in the cells in the course that to me was really exciting and so you put those together and then add to that the fact that you can do you really can make a difference on someone's life and it's not anyone else you're on your own at the police station for sure you're on your own and it's for you to make that difference and when that individual has got the might of the state bearing down on them and you're the one person that they have to go to that's a it's a huge responsibility but it's also a privilege to be in that position so all those factors combined for me to by the time I finished my training there was only one thing I wanted to do and that was that was crime yeah absolutely and you know as I say you've done so much incredible work over the years but you've also said that you understand the pressure faced by the individuals under criminal investigation or indeed prosecution so for listeners who may not have been close to that world and you've lived it, what is the emotional reality for clients in those first moments when they realise they are going under investigation?

6:20Matthew Claughton:Well, I think it's probably most intense for the one in custody because they've been arrested sometimes for something really serious. They've been in a cell. They've asked for a lawyer. The lawyer is on their way, but maybe the police say, we're not ready yet. It's going to be some time before we need you to come down. And when they see you, you are the first person they see that is on their side and the only person at that point. And I think you see people then really, really at their most vulnerable. And that is when your job kicks in. And not only are you going to put them at ease, you're also then going to give the legal advice that's going to put them in the best possible position to deal with what they're up against.

7:09And sometimes, sometimes it could be

7:11Matthew Claughton:something that could lead to a life sentence. So that's your worst case scenario for these people. And that's exactly what I was going to say. This is life-changing stuff. So back to your point about the responsibility and pressure, but also the privilege for you to hopefully, you know, do your absolute best, I'm sure is something that most of our listeners will get to resonate with throughout this discussion. You have said that the most effective criminal lawyer is one who prevents their client from being charged. So I think that is such a strong line, particularly. Can you perhaps unpack that a bit for us in terms of the pre-charge engagement, what that actually means in practice, and why you believe it is where the best criminal defence work actually often happens.

7:52Matthew Claughton:What I would say is that the best day's work isn't necessarily securing an acquittal in the Crown Court. I mean, there are times when that's what you have to do. But far better is the day when you can ring your client up and say, your case is being NFA'd, which means no further action, which means it's over. And that's a client on the end of the phone really trying to digest, do you mean it's over? Do you mean, do you mean, it's, and I'm going to email you and explain it to you properly, but I wanted to ring you first so that you knew as soon as possible, it is definitely over. You've got your life back.

8:30Matthew Claughton:And that is to me where we can have the best impact. And it's, it's one of the things that sets us apart from other firms. The last thing you want is for someone to be arrested and then released under investigation, whether that's on bail or not, and asked to come back to the police station three months time and then gets extended for another three months and another three months. And all they're doing is relying on the police. They probably think, sometimes think, well, I didn't do anything. I'm innocent. Therefore, I won't be prosecuted. But the danger there is that they are sleepwalking into a prosecution.

9:09Matthew Claughton:And my position or stance on this is that no, this is the time when you don't forget about the police interview that took place yesterday, which was harrowing enough. Now go on the front foot, seek legal advice and look to instruct a lawyer who will be proactive in preventing you being prosecuted. And this is pre-charge representation, not just the police interview, but representing the client through to a decision being made. And it's where the lawyer, the legal team, will go on the front foot, look to engage with the police. That can be formally, pre-charge engagement, or informally. Let them know that you are there.

9:56Matthew Claughton:Let them know that they will be hearing a lot more from you. And during the stage of pre-charge representation and pre-charge engagement with the police, you can tease out weaknesses in a prosecution case. You could direct lines of inquiry. You could provide them with material that may be relevant to the investigation. Certainly that which would point away from your client's guilt. And this process would culminate typically in representations against charge in which you will argue, we will argue, that there should not be a prosecution because the charging standard contained within the Code for Crown Prosecutors has not been met either because there is not a realistic prospect of a conviction or a prosecution is not in the public interest.

10:52Matthew Claughton:And on that basis, the case should be NFA, no further action. And the skill is to put the prosecutor in the position of a Crown Court litigator preparing the case for a trial and think, we've no chance here, this would not lead to a conviction. so you have to get them to think imagine the case a year or two down the line before the crown court and get them to realize that this case that it would it would end with a not guilty verdict and once you've done that your job is done because they should take the view there's not a realistic prospect of a conviction here let's move on to the next case and that's fantastic for your client that's the main objective um they get their life back they get they get to breathe they get to think about other things.

11:43Matthew Claughton:They get to enjoy their family. They get to do everything that everyone else can do. But it's also good for the system because it means the wrong cases aren't going before the courts. And the criminal justice system can focus on stronger cases that should be prosecuted. So that's what we do. It's one thing that really sets us apart from other firms and we're very very good at it. Absolutely fantastic at it and I love two things about that firstly is the proactive nature that you're suggesting there actually to to go out there and be proactive and manage this as best as possible and also the fact that you pick up the phone you know that's that human you could easily anyone could just send an email they're not a number you genuinely care for your clients you're going to follow up in writing perhaps it might be overwhelming on that call but you're taking the time to actually tell them and build that connection from your client and say, look, we're here for you and wanted to let you know firsthand from me.

12:37I really like that. And that's clearly why the firm has gone really successfully well. And let's talk about sort of the formidable reputation for being proactive that the firm has done on that pre-chart work and indeed trying to stop matters before they escalate. What do you think, in your opinion, separates a defence team that's genuinely good at one of these things and one of those that's just really reacting and already sort of just moving along with the parts? What do you think separates good from great?

13:04Matthew Claughton:You have to look at the case and look for the way through it so that you can see a way through it. And that's the way we train our staff. Look to pick out the weaknesses in the prosecution case. Take on board the material that the client is able to provide you with. The exculpatory material. Work towards engagement with the police. and then start to join all the dots together, put the pieces into representations and also put yourself in a position because our pre-charge lawyers are also Crown Court litigators. They represent people in the Crown Court. Imagine the case in the Crown Courts. And then, into that is a really expert knowledge of the role.

13:54Matthew Claughton:A defendant's lawyer has an expert knowledge of the role of the Crown prosecutor and what tests they're supposed to apply. So all that goes ultimately into representations against charges as to why they shouldn't be prosecuted. That's the key to it. It's also, I'm not sure quite whether your question would address this point, but it's also that high, high level of empathy and understanding of your client's predicament and the instructions that they're giving us. so and let's face it these clients choose us they choose us because they've got a story to tell they want to come to us because they believe we will get their point across and and and there's an outcome that they desire so these these are clients who really really do want to work with us and they've got a lot of input to give us these aren't the ones who are burying their heads in the sand.

14:51Matthew Claughton:These clients are up for it and they're up for the fight. Yeah. And as I say, you've done incredible work. It has to be said. You talk about empathy there. One thing I want to talk about now is judgment. We sort of talked a little bit at the beginning of the conversation around technology and the mobile phone and how that's come in. We're in a world of AI now. Well, I'm quite verbose about it. AI can do a lot of the work. People can shout about it and say it can't and this, that and the other. But certain things are really important that AI can't do at the moment where the lawyers should be focusing more of their time, which is on the the judgment, the risk balancing, that side of things.

15:20So you deal with very serious criminal allegations, the fraud, regulatory work, professional discipline, crisis management, a whole range of things. So in those kind of matters, how do you balance the sort of legal analysis, the client management, but also that commercial judgment when everything can probably feel quite urgent, quite high risk? Yeah, talk us a bit more about your view on that.

15:41Matthew Claughton:Yeah, I see what you mean. There may be urgent elements to a case, but you've always got to retain that sense of calm and you can't allow a client's anxiety to affect your judgment or affect the steps that you are are going to take so you always have to reset to and go through it methodically even if there's a level of urgency to it and um the client often needs to understand that and so that can can be quite an interesting challenge because the client may have different ideas about how to resolve the situation and ultimately it's for them to understand that we have the experience and it's the outcome and sometimes they have to be a little bit patient and so yeah it's it's that calmness the level of confidence and the ability to to reset and go through things methodically that's really quite important we can normally and i think this is really important.

16:46Matthew Claughton:We normally make sure we match the right clients with the right lawyers to deal with problems as they arrive. So that's quite an important element of it. That was where I was going to go next, actually. How do you do that? How do you make sure that you're able to match? What's the trick to that to ensure that seamless process for all involved? Okay, well, we've got 30 solicitors, so that's a good starting point. And a lot of firms simply can't do that and within criminal defense work there are sub-specialisms so you may have a lawyer who will deal with fraud or serious crime and not go not represent someone for example on an allegation of a sexual offense but they will be very good in the other areas and so we will we can normally match the expertise perfectly but in addition to that we often sort of think this is this is a particular temperament a client with a particular temperament that would be well suited to the calm nature of this particular lawyer so you can match them in terms of type of criminal defense or type of the allegation but also the personality and so because of because of that I think we can get a right lawyer for the right client, the right case every time.

18:09And the numbers prove that. I mean, the success story of the firm since taking 100 % of control, I think in 2018, correct me if I'm wrong, but the firm has tripled turnover and strengthened its market position, which is fantastic.

18:20Matthew Claughton:I think it might have quadruple turnover. It might be closer to quadruple. And it's really, it's gone up quite a lot in that period. I think by the time we get to July of this year, it might be times four. Wow. It's really, really good. So what do you think, what did you see then that needed to change when you took over and what key decisions have really helped drive that growth to perhaps inspire other law firm leaders out there? Okay. So in 2018, one of my colleagues, we were a similar age, around about 53, 54. And one of my colleagues said that he wanted to leave. he was going to cash out if you like one of the partners and another one said I thought I was going before you and I said that's okay okay if you let me take over and they said there's three of them then you can all go two of you can stay physically the one who wants to leave can leave and then I will have control and then it was possible for me to say this is what I want to do and I worked really hard at the core focus of what we were going to do.

19:29Matthew Claughton:And that was, we're great at serious crime, we're great at fraud work, and we are really good at pre-charge work, and that's an area I really, really do want to develop. And also I realised that there'd been a lack of recruitment over recent years, and if these guys were leaving and being essentially cashing out, I needed something at the end of it. So one of the other areas of focus was a strong youth policy. And that's exactly what I called it. And that core focus is still there now, being really strong on a youth policy so that we have continuity when I got that bit older, which I'm getting there now.

20:20No, you're still a

20:22Matthew Claughton:So that was crucial. There's no point me staggering over the finishing line as I paid out my former partners and shareholders and then having a firm withered on the fine during the period. So it was crucial that we had a thriving firm for me as I hit sort of 60s, early 60s and beyond. Yeah. So that was the idea. and in addition to core focus I'm losing track of the question there Robert stop me if I'm going off no not at all it's this the journey isn't it's the story so so we had the focus but we also wanted and to make sure and I say we it's kind of me but I was I was talking to other people but we also have the we need to make sure that the values were right and it all had to be about the client and the ethics and also being a byword for excellence so that was client service and so they were they're still they're still our values along with one or two others but that's it and so it was all about getting that right um and you know when we talk about focus not looking at an opportunity to recruit someone who's not into these areas of work somebody who might have or geographically not not conveniences and things like that not not taking on opportunities if they always go back to focus this is this what we're about no well we're not we're not doing that And so that was how I set it out in 2018.

21:54Matthew Claughton:And we've remained quite rigid with that since, despite what's happened since then, because we've had a lockdown, we have a culture of working from home, we've had the arrival of AI. But we stuck to that core focus and those core values. And they've held us in good stead. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. If you're spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it's time for a change. Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think.

22:34Clio's dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way, so you can focus on what matters most, your clients. plus award-winning support 24 5 via live chat phone and email means help is always on hand when you need it visit clio.com forward slash uk to find out why thousands of uk solicitors trust clio now back to the show you talked earlier about the training and you mentioned there obviously the recruitment obviously i've been running a legal recruitment business for over a decade now so i'm passionate about this in terms specifically lawyers as well and enhancing their careers and finding the right roles and having more enriched careers.

23:13But when you're hiring senior criminal defense talent or indeed any talent, what are the non-negotiables beyond technical ability? Is it judgment, temperament, client care or something else?

23:23Matthew Claughton:I think we look at the track record of the lawyer. Then we spend a lot of time talking to them. And do we think they'd be a good fit for lawyers? And is it absolutely obvious that they care about clients, that a client is not a commodity, a client is not a sum of money. It has to be, do they care about the clients and do they care about the quality of the work that they can deliver and will they fit into and share the core values of all years? The core focus is less important because we decided to focus and we would be speaking to then because it was part of our focus, but would they align with our values?

24:08Matthew Claughton:And I think that's the key thing. And that's half our recruitment. The other half is the youngsters who join us, and that's part of our youth policy. And these are people that we will train up. And at the moment, a significant number of them have joined from our intern scheme because we place a huge amount of emphasis on attracting young entrants to the profession and I don't just mean all years I mean the criminal defense profession so every year we have a series of week-long intern programs and that's eight people for eight weeks one week each We've been doing that since, I don't know if it's 2019, 2020.

24:56Matthew Claughton:So this aligns with the new world. And we've recruited about 10 trainees from that program. Last year, we had five trainees with us. There'll be more at the end of this year. Some qualified last year. We've got two at the moment. And in my time, I've had over 50 trainees. So that's a big thing. and once they are training with us we work really hard on making them as complete a criminal lawyer as possible as soon as possible and you can't substitute there's no substitute for experience but we work really hard on on skilling up our lawyers and we have some we have some fantastic accreditations uh that we deliver a couple of them are industry first internal accreditations the law society does a brilliant police station accreditation it also does a good magistrates court advocacy accreditation but we specialize in pre-charged work so where the law society doesn't deliver one we created our own that mirrors the police station accreditation it's got you have to pass exams submit portfolios be be shadow someone and then be be monitored and then we get them to a good level of being accredited to deal with this area of work.

26:21Matthew Claughton:And then we introduced that about three or four years ago and then a couple of years ago we introduced Crown Court accreditation. So again, that means that our lawyers are accredited internally to represent people in the Crown Court. And when you look at those four accreditations, that's covering to a high standard the main basis of criminal defense work. Nothing on appeals. It's good, really, really good that. And then we added two to client care accreditation last year. And the next thing is an AI accreditation. But that's going to be annual because that changes so rapidly now. So we really work hard on bringing our youngsters on.

27:06Matthew Claughton:and I think that youth policy is a really strong selling point for the firm. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you're proactive again as well in terms of if you don't see it, create it. And yeah, I love that you genuinely care about people bringing in that are aligned with your values, not just necessarily the best talent, you know, but actually are they going to be the right fit? Are they going to genuinely care, be right for our clients, the reputation that we've built? Because you're building a very, very, you know, specialist firm with an excellent reputation and you're seeing the results because a lot of firms talk about the growth, but not all of them actually go on to achieve growth.

27:39Even more so in recent times of competition, you're seeing more and more firms merge, go bust, whatever it might be. So how have you kept Oli as independent, specialist and ambitious without diluting what the firm really stood for in the first place?

27:53Matthew Claughton:We have our focus. We have our values. The last value is independence, and it's been a great independent law firm. So it means that I don't think you can take your values. If you can't be swallowed up by a bigger firm and take your values with you, because they would then be determined by the bigger firm. And so that was the key to it. And it wasn't so it wasn't about making being hugely profitable. That that came that came away from the focus and the values that came with the professionalism with which we should. run our cases um it came with a decision things like the decision to have a client acceptance policy on the publicly funded work so for example the days of representing um a shoplifter who may have committed an offense in hull it's like we can't do that on a publicly funded basis so and and we can't represent the the burglary in leeds and so we really had to trim down what what we what we were prepared to accept on a publicly funded basis, on the basis that they would be just as well, if not better, represented by a local lawyer who had the time to deal with them, not one who's travelled at a huge expense and little remuneration and needs to get back to the office.