How Supermergers Revolutionise the Future of Law with Ashurst Perkins Coie’s Ian Bagshaw - S10E35

29:13But once you create a system which bridges that gap and you can use technology now to do that, then ultimately the results, you know, can be very accelerated talent development. And when people think they're on that journey, they own it. if people think they're not basically being developed as fast as they can they moan about it so the positivity of accelerating talent I think needs to be reintegrated into law firm talent development people need to be looking to accelerate it as quick as possible and a lot of the time the economics of modern law firms have pushed talent promotion out on a much longer journey in part because they're fortifying partner economics and what I'm trying to do is to accelerate the talent so they they make that decision for us if they can originate work and they can execute it they can be a partner earlier and the economics and the content speak for themselves so you automatically saying to people be the best version of yourself follow this path build a monetizable ecosystem so that you can start helping origination then executing on that and ultimately you know make it so we can't leave you out of the partnership.

30:27Don't make it so you're dependent on someone's decision to bring you into the partnership. Make it so it's obvious. And when you encourage people on that basis, it feels different. They feel supported. And everyone wants to pass the grandma test, right? Which is when you come out of university and you go back to your grandma's 70th or 80th, she just wants to know, like, are you doing well? Are you a partner yet? She's not interested in whether you're a partner at Latham or Clifford Chance or anywhere, but she wants to know that all the effort that people put into you early on is being rewarded by career success.

31:01I always apply that grandma test and say, look, everyone wants to do well in their job because they've spent a lot of time getting here. So don't mess around with antiquated learning when you can accelerate learning through technology. And that was the other point. We didn't want to churn because churn costs money. and if you hire someone you pay a recruitment fee you pay them a load of salary and they get pissed off and they don't do anything that's toxic for a culture it costs a lot of money it's bad for business so if you can basically bring people in accelerate their learning so they provide value for money and they're confident and happy then you get low churn high output and then they grow in the business that's good for business so this is all going back to solve a problem which is a win for me, a win for the talent and a win for the business.

31:50And if we apply that logic against our formula of talent experience, then we're only starting to see the fruit start to ripen now, because even if you accelerate talent, it still takes like years to get people into a position to perform at a partner level. But when you can see people are on the way, it creates a massive amount of pride. So always work on making people the best version themselves and giving them the power to drive their own career. So democratize knowledge, accelerate learning, and encourage people to be future-proofed. Because with technology coming into the business of law at a rapid pace, people need to be able to sell.

32:30It's not that they have an option to sell. There is going to be no career progress for someone who's amazing at drafting difficult contracts. Because if they can't find clients, they'll give them difficult contracts to draft. They won't have a business case to be a senior partner in a law firm. So you've got to coach people to sell and you've got to make the expectation is you've got to have a network because selection decisions are more and more based on human preferences about how you provide client experience, how responsive you are. And Harvey and Lagora don't differentiate anything because everyone's got them.

33:08It's like an operating system. So now it's about what you do with it to improve the talent and client experience. So my methodology is really simple, you know, kind of provide the foundations to accelerate talent in the right way. So they're future-proofed and therefore they ultimately become very confident, loyal and contributors to a positive business. So, you know, kind of that creates a great culture and low churn and big corporate memory creates a lot more opportunities in front of clients because clients don't want to see a lot of churn in relationships it all the time. But that was the point I just wanted to clarify because I'm quite passionate about that bit.

33:46Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. If you're spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it's time for a change. Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think. Clio's dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way so you can focus on what matters most your clients plus award-winning support 24 5 via live chat phone and email means help is always on hand when you need it visit clio.com forward slash uk to find out why thousands of uk solicitors trust clio now back to the show law firm's greatest asset is your people it's your talent so you know it's in absolute incentive to do that and i was thinking when you're talking through it's more on the entrepreneurial side the sort of good to great book um more focus on business but i think can relate to people and talent what you're ultimately doing if you're developing is you're putting energy inputs into these individuals you're building momentum and your flywheel your career flywheel is compounding and over time like you say it takes time but it's developing and suddenly it starts going going and going and going so i think it absolutely makes sense to to do that and really sort of bring out the best in your talent and then they will still stay motivated they won't stay stagnated they won't feel uninspired or stay in these comfort zones because comfort zones great but nothing ever grows there we know that and i think that's obviously why it's gone on to be so great for you and you're right sales is the lifeblood i think of everyone's life and everyone's business whether they choose to accept it or not and i think the red car theory is a great example of that go and have a look at that folks if you're not familiar with it and so again let's go back to some of your strategic thinking now Ashurst and Perkins coming together big combination what was the deciding factor in merging firms together and why was it this year the right time overall to be at the top table you need to be global I think that's you know kind of fundamental driver and both for legacy Ashes and legacy Perkins, you know, the combination creates a global footprint.

36:03And then when you apply that global stature, then what do you really want to be? You want to be focused on some key sectors to drive the business, not to the exclusion of other sectors, but focus on key sectors. So, you know, Perkins brought a deep technology expertise. expertise. Asha has brought a deep FIG and energy expertise. So when you look at the three key sectors driving the combination, it's a technology, energy, and FIG. And that will create, you know, kind of a strategy behind which other sectors flow. And then you've got to kind of, have we got the right culture? Can we develop the talent to make the best use of the platform?

36:48and that will come through, you know, over time. The fact that both firms were comparable size made this combination a little bit easier than, say, some of the other ones were, it's something big taking over something smaller, because here it's a merger of equals. So we start off with the position of a merger of equals, a complementary footprint, and a clear strategic focus into those three zones. And, you know, time will tell, you know, as with all these things, because you want a fast start to create an integrated business, a clear go to market strategy, and some repeat business clients. Because going back to that point about the red car, big laws about repeat business clients and driving into those clients to build global relationships, multi-partner owned so they're stable and then ultimately high quality consistent product and pricing for that you need properly trained people deep expertise you know and a desire to take what has been two businesses one with no non-us footprint of any significance and one with no us footprint of any significance put them together coach the partners to cross sell the combine firm to create a global business serving on a repeat business basis, a number of global clients which will drive success for both the business itself and also the talent within it.

38:23So kind of the starting gun has fired. The combination is just the start. It's a bit like when people make partner. They think they've summited the mountain and they get to that point and they realized, shit, the summit's like another two base camps up. I need to put my backpack on and keep walking. So the combination's done. Now making it work, achieving the strategy, building a truly global firm with a clear strategic identity, with talent and clients brought in. That's the proof that needs to be in the pudding. People are off to that and there's a fast start and it's all great. So ultimately, the combination was just the starting gun for the race, not even the last lap, just the starting gun for the race.

39:08New level, new devil. We say a lot on the show, but absolutely, you know, new, new, but exciting. You know, you embrace that, you know, you know, there's going to be opportunities, challenges ahead and you have that mindset of understanding that from your previous entrepreneurial sort of resilience and grit you had built up for over the years as well. more of a general market uh opinion from you now why are we seeing so many of these super mergers why are they becoming more and more popular and you mentioned sort of global um for some of the reasons from from what you're currently doing at ashurst and perkins but obviously we saw a no sherman go early we've seen so many other firms that i could list off go down that route what's your general observation why this is happening and do you think firms have to do it to stay relevant operating at that type of business?

39:49I think the market's fragmenting. Okay. So when you look at the geopolitics of the legal market at the moment, the majority of work in London for big law is going to require a significant US presence. Because, you know, New York, London are relatively piloting together now on a common journey. But when you look at the geopolitics, the kind of Chinese, Russian, you know, kind of rest of world impact in the corporate marketplace is relatively low compared to what it's been over the last 25 years. Most of the invested capital is US dollar. Most of the big companies operating in Europe are US. So therefore, having a US-Europe presence from a European perspective is now increasingly fundamental if you want to be at the big table.

40:52You want to be in the top 20, which will go down to top 10 in the course of the next decade of firms that matter. So I think increasingly firms that want to be in that game need a US partner. And I think the same is true for firms that historically have in APAC, accessing the US markets, particularly if you're in tier one economies in APAC, outside China and India, then you're going to be leaning towards the US because the US is the economic center against which Western facing democracies, you know, kind of basically pitch their tent and are taking invested capital. So we're increasingly becoming one market.

41:36And therefore, to operate in that market, the cornerstone is the US economy. And therefore, having access to that US economy is why these mergers are happening. On the flip side, you start to see a lot of entrepreneurial activity in the law where people are boutiquing. A lot of litigators are creating their own entrepreneurial businesses and they're focusing on a simple market, a simple strategy, and they're creating very high quality, very high cost businesses that ultimately are providing a clear focus that's not within a transactional firm. We do litigation, we sue anyone, this is what we do.

42:18So you're starting to see boutiquing come through. And I think increasingly you might see more boutiquing with the advent of clear workflow architecture leading to AI-driven client solutions. So whilst you've got kind of tech native firms like AI, native firms, you'll see the big firms becoming AI adoptive to try and compete with each other, which will change the business shape of big law. But you'll then see tech native firms coming in to really race with agentic solutions to replace manual labor production. So the market's going to be subdividing as well. Because the native AI firms will take over a segment of the market.

43:06Big law will focus on high value bet your farm work. So that market's likely to grow, but the competitors will shrink. Which is driving firms that want to be in that zone to merge. Because if you're not merged, you'd have a big US presence. You're at a competitive disadvantage if you want to be a transactional firm. And then firms will then focus on investment in adoptive AI strategies to improve consistent quality, reduce cost, particularly if that becomes a competitive element to the market. Inevitably, it will. And then you'll see other firms come through, which will be practice led litigation.

43:46You might also see in private equity where you've got a commoditized product, which you can speed up the delivery, reduce the cost if you're in a boutique. So the market's going to get very, very dynamic. And the valuable commodity is the same as it always was. It's judgment and relationships. But the question is, do you need to be in an institutional firm to run your practice? And the litigators increasingly worked out that they didn't, which is why they boutiqued. And obviously, you've had some amazing success stories. Quinn Emanuel started as a boutique. But there's lots of other boutiques in the London market and New York market that are coming through.

44:20You've got people who think actually technology can accelerate me building a business. So you've got kind of native AI firms and firms positioning to that, you know, AI dependent product development, you know, kind of business model. And then you've got the big, big law firms who are looking like, what do we do? But intuitively, if they've got high value relationships with repeat business clients, they've got a moat already, which is the judgment of a lot of partners embedded in a lot of clients. So that's why I think the market is dynamic. There's a lot of disruption from a lot of different directions.

45:00So it's no longer like the market it was 10 years ago, where it's like US firms versus UKET firms, because the market is now more closer to one. So you want to be a global firm in that market with a heavy US presence, because that's where the money comes from. Likewise, invested capital in law is coming through. So if you've got a business plan and an idea, you can probably get third-party investment to drive that business plan and make it more like a tech company. And ultimately, people will boutique him. Because don't forget, for all the Harvids and Ligoras, the cost of a licensed product from those guys is still a fraction of the revenue that people make from clients.

45:42And the last impact in the market is the clients themselves are investing in technology to insource the work. So you've got this moving target where the clients are also taking the products and developing, you know, agentic solutions. So they only outsource the most valuable work and they can insource and produce a consistent high quality work internally with, you know, kind of innovative practices and technology. So the target's moving, the market's moving, influenced by geopolitics, And ultimately, people's ambitions to be in the top tier at the top table, which is why you're starting to see the pace pick up as everyone starts looking at things going, if I don't move now, what will happen?

46:31And it's become an existential threat to a lot of law firms that if they're not in the zone of the top table, they'll never get there. and therefore it's now or never and then you've got individual partners looking at their practice going like do i need to be in a big firm to do my practice can i make my clients happier if i just focus on them and i can build a infrastructure and use technology to deliver a higher quality consistent product at a lower price they win i win because i get a higher margin i get an investment into my business and now you've got private capital in the mix and the disciplines of private capital will also change big law forever.

47:11So it used to be it's a trillion dollar cottage industry. I think in 10 years time, we may look at it and say parts of it are still a cottage industry. Other parts that have been financially disciplined through external capital and entrepreneurial behavior. And, you know, 10 years ago, being entrepreneurial was doing a lateral move to a US firm to build a business. That's not really looking at entrepreneurial now. When you look at some of the stories that come through entrepreneurial, it's like setting a law firm up or setting a business up or splitting your business in a MSO to take external capital so you can drive investment in technology because there's an arms race everywhere now.

47:53An arms race for clients, an arms race for third party capital, an arms race for adoptive AI if you're an institutional business and an arms race to build a native AI business if you're going after that segment of the market. So never been a better time to be in the flow. And it's never, ever been so dynamic, particularly in London, which is in any measure a top five legal market in the world. And maybe the other four markets, if it's five, are in the US, which goes back to that question, Why do people want to be in the U.S.? Because four out of the top five markets are in the U.S. London's a mega market, but New York is basically Texas's.

48:36California is kind of the Midwest is with Chicago. So you look at the success of firms that have come from left of center, whether it's L.A. or Chicago. You think, actually, maybe if I make a bold move, the next big mover can be me. So you're getting confidence, institutional push, technology giving you the appetite to disrupt, third party capital bring financial discipline to drive into the business. And then people work out, do I need to be in a big firm? And if I do, I stay. And if I don't, I boutique. And then I avoid native AI or costs because if I haven't got the technology and I'm not set up that way, I'll never win in that race.

49:23You can see all these dynamics and the SWOT analysis is forever moving. But ultimately, there's always a north star in this, Rob, which is clients always want exceptional service and value for money. And whatever you do in this business, you've got to hit that. Talent always wants great careers. Whatever you do, you've got to hit that. And to build a team, you need a strong culture. And to build a business, you need sustainable profitability, which is why I think the formula is the same. the journey is just going to look a lot different now because of all the dynamic components in the market which is why you're seeing so much frenzied activity yeah we really are and i want to go back to culture and then ask her a couple of questions around client expectations and tech but just reflecting on what you said there um firstly i always say boutique is beautiful you know you can be nimble you can you know you can react you can remove because clients like you say you think of the clients clients want fusion rather than confusion so if you can get your systems and your processes and your model correct um as a boutique you can be really powerful and punch above your weight and indeed profitable which indeed law firms are looking for and on the big the big law supermoder space you know it's step up or get out really that's kind of where we're getting to that's the table stakes now because if you don't risk anything you ultimately risk everything the firms that are placing their bets like yourselves like many others you know you see with the direction of travel and so you're taking that on and yeah just going back to our listeners that have been with us over the years, go back and listen to John Quinn.

50:48We've had him on the show and heard about how he set up Quinn, their journey, their lessons, that learning. That's a real inspiring one as well. Okay. Amazing story. Yeah, incredible story. And great podcast as well. I love John's podcast, Law Disrupted. So go check out his show. I want to talk about bringing it all together then because when law firms decide to step up, combine everything, this blend of people, cultures, histories, histories, ways of working, How do you then create a shared culture without losing the qualities which made each of the organizations successful in the first place?

51:24That's a tough question. I mean, ultimately, you're talking about blending families of people, you know, and I don't use that word lightly families because you're talking about people who are deeply emotionally invested in the way they do things as the best way to do things. So, you know, you've got to kind of look at that and say, what's the best of all worlds? And I think that, you know, one of the things that law has done badly in my time in law is it's used other businesses as guides to what it could do differently. And the fact it hasn't, you know, like most law firms would say, well, if, you know, 10 years ago, if FreshPills do this, link letters will do that and now it's like if lathans do this or maybe we should do that or if kirkland do this maybe we should do that so the reality is they're guiding you know kind of behavioral discipline is what is my direct business competitor doing whereas actually if i look outside of my industry what is happening in a wider world that could really help my industry and i think personally like you know kind of people need to look at that more and more because the simulators for training are everywhere but law.

52:43And if you want to be an F1 driver, you're going to be on a sim. If you want to basically play golf, you'll practice in a sim. I do that very badly just to interject, by the way. We'll do it, but it's good fun, right? Because you're in a sim, you're willing to fail because you get 25 goes at getting it right. Because if you're basically out in real life and you fail, then you're going to have a big crash or you're going to lose a few balls. So the reality is like taking some ideas from the wider business world and bringing them in. And if you look at law, like most managing partners have never been a CEO of another business.

53:16Most CFOs have never really been a CFO of a non-legal business. And then most of the talent development, business development is legal centric. So you start to see some of the accountancy businesses and consulting businesses really transform. So I think bringing ideas in from outside the industry to benefit the industry is what third party capital is going to bring because that's what third party capital does. That's what private equity does. So I think those changes that are going to come through in the next decade are going to make life very interesting for people who are open minded and agile.

53:51So going back to this, bringing the cultures together, it's not so much blending the cultures. That's the key thing. That's one step. The other thing is looking forward and saying, look, in five years time, if we want to be this kind of business with these kind of clients, what do we need to do differently from within each of our organizations to get to the outcome and the behaviors of talent development the behaviors business development the behaviors democratizing knowledge need to be done to generate that outcome because when you put two businesses together you don't want the sum of the parts to be less than the whole you know you want the whole to be more than some of the parts so you have to have this strategy that says we want to be this together and therefore to get to that zone we have to come together and we have to behave in the right way so it's not just about blending uh the cultures to get the best of both worlds but it's blending the cultures to create a collaborative environment so you can set an ambitious adventurous strategy and execute it and i think that ultimately there's no point doing a combination unless you've got big ambition because it's a start it's not the end you know it's basically get you into that as you say the table stakes but once you're at the table you want to be eating the steak um so you therefore you need to be uh growing in line with that strategy and building a culture that drives you through to the end strategy and that's where the fun is going to be and that's why the combination itself is middle of the start yeah and i'm excited to see it and i say it time and time again our listeners be sick me saying it collaboration is domination i think if you really embrace that you absolutely will come together and the dynamics of this we is greater than me bringing these two together as a real powerhouse and getting that cohesion you're just going to continue to drive forwards okay i promised i want to talk about client expectations because i think you'd have a real view um having lived experience on this because you've previously shared happy clients happy people big wins so how should law firms be responding to the increase in client demands and expectations but as a follow-up to that what are clients now demanding in international firms that perhaps they weren't 10, 20 years ago in light of the revolutions that we're going through?

56:00I think, you know, increasingly they're demanding the same thing, but law firms are having to do different things to deliver it, which is the best judgment at the most cost effective price. And they want access to that judgment. So one of the things that's going to happen if you look at the big challenge within a law firm is like, how do you make sure all your team use their time to their highest and best use. Because at the end of the day, you know, there's only 24 hours in a day and seven in a week. So even though most lawyers are workaholics, you know, the quality time is 12 hours a day. So therefore, if you're a partner, how many of those hours are spent dealing with the client on the things that matter?

56:47Because as a proxy for success, the more time a partner is with a client, dealing with things that matter to the client, the stronger the relationship. And how much time do people spend doing the wrong things? So again, if you look at it in a kind of sporting analogy, if you play a position and you want to score goals, there is no point basically being in your own penalty box when you need to be in the other one to score the goal. So getting people to their highest and best position, and I'm still moaning about the Argentina game so you can see why I'm picking on that. Oh, I'm with you. I've been biting my tongue.

57:21Yeah, let's not talk about too cool. The highest and best use is the dynamic that businesses need to drive to. So clients will now want more time on the judgment. They probably will pay less for repeat mundane tasks. So law firms have to work out in terms of this valuable inefficiency model that's been created by accident, where the human pyramid just basically keeps generating revenue that clients get billed for. they probably see agentic solutions to removing a lot of that cost from repeat mundane tasks. And if they don't devise agentic solutions, native AI firms will. So the challenge is to get to the highest and best use of the talent you have in your business so you're always relevant to your client.

58:11And I think that's why it's always been the case and it will always be the case. But law firms now have to get a lot more disciplined, a lot more focused on that because their clients are. For the first time in a long time, if you're the GC of a mid-market business, you were limited by maybe having two, three, 10 people in your legal team. But now if you build your own agentic solution to what you need, the limiter is the quality of that solution, not the headcount you've got. So therefore, you can focus more time on what you need to do. And therefore, when you do that, it's always the big questions, the bet your farm issue and therefore you want access to the partners so partners are going to find themselves probably transitioning to be more in front of clients more relevant to clients probably have time to do more of that stuff if they can get the human pyramid to agentify repeat mundane tasks and that formula is what all these firms are looking for and whoever gets there will win.

59:13And the firms that don't get there, they will lose rapid and they won't see it coming. It'll be, it's fine. It's fine. It's definitely fine. We're having a good year. And then they'll all have a Kodak moment, you know, where they'll think actually no one's buying film anymore. No one takes pictures with cameras. How did we not see this? The pictures are still being taken, but they're not on a digital camera, they're on a phone. So the reality is this is going to happen in the industry for sure in the next five years to 10 years. It could happen earlier. It depends on whether firms can grip the agentification and clarify workflow within their business to facilitate it.

59:55So clients are going to change the market. Law firms are going to change the market. And the reality is the majority of revenue is paid to law firms by clients. So technology licensing is a fraction of that and law firms need to focus more on client development, talent development to build that judgment and that client service, then perhaps they need to focus on licensing in very useful tech products, but ultimately that ones that kind of still require judgment to sell and require energy for law firms to sell. So I think focusing on the old school issues is still going to be the best strategy at the same time as removing repeat mundane tasks so losing that valuable inefficiency within the business model so it's going to be a great time yeah i love your optimism to be in business yeah exactly and that's the way to look at it and just picking on a few things there um we've and i think this is why we're so passionate about having these conversations and staying curious and educating people because the market is changing and bringing in leaders like yourself that are right in the thick of it right now because you can't afford to stay standstill you need to be curious you need to be alive to the market you need to be listening to your clients and would highly recommend folks check out jack newton's client-centered uh law firm book founder and ceo of cleo we've had him on the show multiple times every time he comes on it's a master class much like today and i also want to remind people to go back and listen to piers linney former dragons then investor and lawyer and friend of mine who's been on the show and he talks and mirrors what you're talking about there of the value pyramid it doesn't matter if you're a doctor a lawyer an accountant insurance tech is coming in and it's coming in an exponential rate and at its worse ability as of today so you as a service provider need to find a way to be ahead of that be that through the judgment and things you said otherwise tech will eat your lunch as they say so I think it's really important that we articulate that point in a structured way rather than a scaremongering point because I think you're absolutely talking to that as well Ian and I want to talk about now just you know i'm conscious of time but i just want a couple quick fire questions because i've got so many lessons i want to kind of you know a mentor said to me um i want to empty my head before i'm dead and i thought it's such a lovely mindset to have in terms of wanting to give back so uh i know we're stretching time here but i just want to get a couple of your reflections so think of a professional setback that became probably one of the most valuable experiences in your career and what did you learn oh there's been a few um you know i i think with any setback it's how you bounce back yeah you know and uh and setbacks a good phrase because it just takes you back a step and you know if you come back and uh move forward beyond that you know it's good but Like, you know, there's been so many and I kind of like to learn from every situation, whether it's losing clients, losing talent.

1:02:52You know, I once crashed my girlfriend's car at the time, whose dad was a big client of Eversheds and wrote it off. And the valuable lesson there was to make sure I was insured because I was on my way to a work meeting claiming petrol allowance and I crashed the car. and it was only insured for domestic use. And the insurer said you're on business use. And I was like, oh, no, that means it's uninsured. So lesson one is don't write off your girlfriend's car if her dad's a big client of the firm on an uninsured basis. So I started checking. I wasn't so cavalier with insurance details from that stage.

1:03:32I think law is based on relationships and people remember what you do for them. So I've been lucky to really work with a lot of talented people and help them in building really successful careers for themselves. And people always talk about that. When I get together with people, they rarely talk about the deal, like the complexity of the deal, the bill. They talk about where I am now and why I'm there. And I think law firm success historically has been built on pay it forward, pay it back. and ultimately it's a talent business and if you're not interested in talent you're missing so much of the fun so if you can pay it forward by helping people on their journey they'll always look back fondly on that experience and I think for me as a talent business I've loved paying it forward and I continue to do that and that's the best part of the job So always learn from your mistakes, some stupid, some avoidable and some, you know, kind of intentional as in bad decisions.

1:04:46But if you understand why you went wrong and avoid it in the future, then you're creating a pattern of success because to repeat mistakes is a pattern of failure. So I think all these setbacks are just that. They're setbacks. And historically, for me, looking back, the highs have never been really that high as I thought they were at the time and the lows were never that low. So it's very hard to do anything catastrophic in a good culture. And therefore, even when you think something's catastrophic, it never really is. And when you think something is exceptional, it never really is. So keep a perspective on everything.

1:05:23and remember you know if you can pay it forward and help people then ultimately uh emotionally that is far more important those moments are more important than how much comp you get paid you know kind of how many deals you did in a year because like no one's ever mentioned to me my merger market stats when i catch up with them they always mention that when we did this we had this much fun or when we did that do you remember this event so it's a very personal human business and And if you appreciate that, you see the full picture. And like a lot of what we talk about, a lot of what's reported is like the pep, the hires, the clients.

1:06:01And it's like, come on, you know, at the end of the day, everything's rented other than the people. And if you don't appreciate the people, how much are you missing? So I think the setback and the culture go together and pay it forward is a principle that I always try and live by, you know, because ultimately it's great. It's a great feeling. Makes me want to get in the office every day. There's only so many SBAs you can draft in a lifetime. But there's always a new experience helping someone build a successful career. Yeah, I love the intrinsic value I can see that you get from that. And yeah, once you reach teach, right?

1:06:38It's that simple. And these mistakes absolutely make you. I talk about this a lot. You know, we're no longer in this B2B, B2C world. We're in this H2H, that human to human connection. And when you're catching up with these clients, these people, you've built that human connection with them. And the work speaks for itself. It's actually, I would say rapport wins the war. You've built up that capital with them, the relationship capital and all of that good stuff comes your way. So, yeah, really good lessons for that. And I think one of the point on that is, you know, that point about when you reach your teach, I think that's right at an early stage of a partner career.

1:07:15And then as you get a bit older, you then start realizing you start getting taught. Because if you engage with talent at all levels of the business and all jobs, then people start bringing new ways to do things. And then it gets quite interesting because, you know, being reverse mentored now, I probably get reverse mentored more by my LBAs than I mentor them. You know, they're telling me like lots of different things on how they do stuff, how to get stuff done. And that's really interesting. But can you really do that that quickly? Or can you really do that if we give you this tool? So I think the interesting part for me now is being taught different processes to achieve the same outcome.

1:07:54And for me, trying to get the client outcomes consistent, but letting people with much more tech nativity drive the creation of these processes, so long as the outcomes are consistent to what I need to apply my judgment and then democratizing the knowledge to make that happen quicker, makes it a different job it's almost like now i'm in a different job than i was at ym case and it's uh and that to me is that's why i think it's like a second career um you know because it just feels like a different job yeah and i could just get the energy from it as well and we talk a lot about 360 board of um your 360 board of mentors you know people above you ahead of you beneath you because that next generation particularly has so much creativity and you know once you think you know everything we know nothing so i think always being open to learning is so true.

1:08:41Agreed. Okay, so next generation coming through, you've been relentlessly focused on giving back, helping, developing. It's been a real theme and classic great leadership that you've shown through this conversation. So I'm sure there's going to be a lot of aspiring solicitors listening to this. So if they're wanting to train, qualify, or break into an international firm like Ashurst Perkins, what do they need to do? What are three top tips for them? I think firstly, get agile. Now, be willing to learn, understand that you're continuously learning. So that coachability factor once you're in the building is what's going to differentiate you.

1:09:21Hard work, less so, because as agentic solutions come forward, repeat mundane tasks, which differentiates people as a safe pair of hands. They'll be agentified. So be coachable and accelerate your learning. I think the second is own the application process. So position yourself so that you are relevant, you understand the business you're applying to and why you're applying to it. increasingly the quality of applications is very very high the differentiator is you know kind of do you understand why you're applying to ashes perkins as opposed to you know a kind of magic circle firm or a different u.s firm and having that kind of interest in our core sectors is a is a clear differentiator and then the third point is um you know one that we have to do as a business And I think that don't be put off by this.

1:10:18But our viewpoint is, you know, talent is everywhere. Opportunity is not. So the fact that you may not see someone like you in this building doesn't mean there isn't someone like you in this building. So as my grandma said, never assume. Put yourself forward, make a case and never assume that this isn't a place for you because you don't know anyone like you that works in this building. Because most importantly, having a clear meritocracy is very valuable to a business that wants to grow. So candidates get themselves coachable, they prepare well, and they always apply to what they think is the right organization, even if it doesn't necessarily have people on the inside that they can see like them.

1:11:05Ultimately, almost all organizations want to operate a meritocracy and therefore applicants from a wide and varied group of people will drive that forward. so I think never assume be coachable and prepare prepare prepare prepare prepare absolutely and that's why we try to have such a diverse range of voices on the show and instantly that brought my mind back to Trevor Sterling who's been on the show who was the he talks a lot about if you can't see the ladder be the ladder you know and climb up and send it back down and he was the first black partner of any top 100 law firm in the UK and he's really built the ladder and has his own awards now and I'd highly recommend folks go and check him out okay final piece of advice before we let you go Ian and it's a sentence I'd like you to complete actually so okay if you had to complete it how would you finish this the future of the legal profession will not be shaped by the firms which are the biggest but by those who disrupt the trillion dollar cottage industry the most I like it I like it Ian this has been marvelous even better than I expected and I was really looking forward to today's discussion so if our listeners would like to know more about yourself or indeed ash has perkins um where can they find out more feel free to share any websites or any social media handles where people can go to find more information uh we'll make sure we share them with this episode for you too i think just linkedin for me personally all about the journey and then uh you know you sent to the firm's website uh and linkedin profile for everything to do with applications and background fantastic it's been an absolute pleasure having on the show today um highly highly insightful thoroughly enjoyable conversation so i'd just like to say from all of us here on the league speaking podcast sponsored by cleo wishing you lots of continued success in the second wind shall we say of the career journey for yourself and everyone involved ashurst perkins but from now from all of us on the show over and out thank you for listening to this week's episode if you like the content here why not check out our world leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord.

1:13:12Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There's a link to join our community there. Over and out.