Legally on the Move: Festival of Entrepreneurs - Tre Lowe - E03

0:00Welcome to the Legally On The Move Festival of Entrepreneurs miniseries recording live here from the Birmingham NEC. We are going to be diving into some of the sharpest minds across the UK, some of the top CEOs, some of the top cutting edge businesses for an exciting fast paced series. So stay tuned, get excited and looking forward to delivering even more from the show. Welcome to the Legally Speaking podcast recording live here at the Festival of Entrepreneurs. and I am joined by name, title and organisation. Mr. Trey Lowe and I'm the founder of Sobo Club. And most people probably know me as well from Body Groove, make the body more, figure out to let the body...

0:42I'm actually shattered, I can't believe I'm singing that song. One of my favourite tunes growing up. It's a real pleasure to actually finally be doing this. And why I wanted to talk to you today is because we connected on Clubhouse and it's amazing how so many people from that era are here today. it's great it's like it's like a family reunion a little bit it is and it's been a huge year for you in terms of all things entrepreneurial personally just tell us a little bit about your sort of entrepreneurial journey oh my god this year has been crazy i mean probably going back to the last year or two i mean the apprentice which is crazy i've come from the music business ended up on bbc the apprentice which is amazing it was actually it was a crazy journey in some ways because what proceeded that was the death of my brother in 2020 which um really changed things for me before if he hadn't in the past i probably would never have gone on a tv show but after he passed i looked at the world from a point of view of i don't know how much time i've got yeah and i really want to make a difference and i've always been the biggest fan of lord sugar and the opportunity came up i'm like i've got to get on it i've got some great business ideas and i really want to get a chance to be able to pitch in front of the interviewers which is a scary process and Yeah, it's been great.

1:54So I did the apprentice to see me. I got married. Yes. Had a child this year and I'm 50. So you could probably see the bags under my eyes. I've just been going 100 miles an hour. Like I say, I look at life like each day is a blessing. I have no idea how long I've got. So I want to do as much as I can in a time that I've got. And my fundamental thing is I really want to make a difference in as many lives as possible. So yeah, it's been a busy period for me. And that's why we're grateful for you coming on a legal show. But I love your attitude of gratitude. And so I guess taking you back to the music industry, because we have a lot of people in and around the legal world listen to this.

2:27I want to talk about like copyrights, IP, and challenges you probably had back in the day when it comes to body groove. If people are thinking about releasing music now, what are some of the things they might be needing to think about to ensure that maybe they don't make some of the mistakes you may have did back then? Wow. I mean, our first record, actually, I want to say this. I don't know how the world has changed, but our actual first big hit record was a brand new moniker, The Boy Is Mine. Yeah. And it was a bootleg. Back then, we actually made a lot of money. I can admit it now, because it was 27 years ago, no one's going to sue us but we made a ton of money of selling it white label something you can't do so the equivalent of nowadays is just put it out there because what you will be selling is your name yes i do want to start then i know obviously you're a legal channel but i think for the creators out there don't let legality within reason stop your creativity yeah because what happened in our case is the record label rather than sue us which they had a perfect right to do ended up partnering with us because we took that track and actually made it popular and made it go back to number one and the record label rep in the uk became one of our managers so never be afraid to push the grain i would say number one but then legally speaking i think if you're an artist and it could be in any field really make sure that you've got your eyes dotted and your t's crossed yeah make sure you understand your paperwork make sure you've got a bloody good lawyer that's advising you because that could bite you on the bum years later yeah make sure you've also got a lawyer that's pushing for you because three points is not as good as seven points for instance you know and on your own you might think i'm just going to sign a deal because it's a deal yeah and you might end up signing a lousy deal a 360 deal which for those that don't know means that they own everything you do in our case back in our days it would be like you do a separate publishing deal separate record deal then your merchandise everything else you could do separately now they sign a lot of artists 360 which means only if you do if you can be independent be independent try and do a distribution deal if you're a bloody good musician or whatever creative try and own your intellectual property and license it out rather than sell it so in our case body groove we gave it to the record label to universal and it seemed like a lot of money at then but they own that record for your whole life plus 50 years i believe right which is a long time to own something that you've created so just be careful about what you're signing legally make sure it really works for you 10 years from there rather than i need the money i need it really right now So I just think be careful about what you're signing.

4:43Yeah. And get a good lawyer. Very sage advice. And I guess just to break it down for people then, say if Body Groove and royalties and how that works. So if with what you've done, if Body Groove is played on the radio or elsewhere now, what does that mean from a royalty perspective for you? Go nothing or something. That means a lot. My God, we get a ton of royalties for that record. So basically royalties are split in two. You've got the mechanical royalties, which the record label is. That's the actual master, the recording. And then you've got the publishing side of it. and they split in two.

5:12So in our case, the publishing is something that's renewed every five to seven years and Sony owns it. From the recording point of view, Universal owns it. But another thing to point out, actually, they own that physical recording, but you can get it recorded again. You can get it recorded so faithfully to the original that to a normal person they wouldn't know. But in that case, you would own the actual mechanical right. Because publishing tends to be renewed and not owned forever, whereas the physical master side tends to be owned forever. I don't know what the deals are nowadays, but that's certainly what it was in my days.

5:42So yeah, the royalties will come from those two angles. One would be from the publishing side, one's from the mastering side. The royalties are not as much as it used to be in my days, though. So say, for instance, you're on... Like Bodygoof has probably streamed over 100 million across all the DSPs. Yeah. And say from Spotify, you only get something like five grand for a million streams. Wow. Which is not much. Not much. So you see what I mean when I say if you own your copyright, you're now getting near 100%. Obviously, they're going to get a little cut. versus in our case, I think we own 16 % of it.

6:13So you're getting 16 % of whatever that five grand is. If you've got a big enough record to draw for Taylor Swift, happy days. But nowadays, not so much, you know? So yeah, that's how royalties works. No, I really appreciate that. And a lot of people in the legal industry are creatives themselves. And actually they have lots of things that they're building, be it podcast channels, be it media options, whatever it might be. So it's really good advice. Okay, now I want to talk about The Apprentice because you've been through that. And again, lots of lawyers or people who are legal tech entrepreneurs, people in there how did you get on it and again you did a talk on it give me some top tips if people do want to get on it so i ended up on the apprentice because like i said my brother passed away and i really wanted to make a difference i had this idea for a shop that would impact men that would promote testosterone yeah because modern men's testosterone levels are falling off a cliff yeah and there are so many environmental reasons and lifestyle reasons and modern reasons for why that is so i had this business idea anyway um my wife actually applied for the show and something in me just said trey you need to apply as well and it's weird right because going back to body groove if you ever watch the video for body groove you'll notice that me and my brother in the background but it's actually my brother's voice on that track but he didn't want to actually be on the video so i had to get someone in because he refused and then i refused because we weren't into fame right like back in our days fame wasn't as big as it is now yeah so my thought my thing was oh my god i'm gonna go on tv i love the show i love lord sugar one of my biggest idols but my god i have to be on tv but because my brother passed i'm like no i now want to be on tv because of the leverage that you get because i am someone who wants to be a recognizable face that makes a difference yeah so leverage was everything to me so i went and auditioned and i thought to myself the minute they know i've done body groove and i can come across competent enough they're going to be like oh my god and i learned actually later that the producer did punch the ear when i walked in because he's thinking how is it a guy that did body group has walked in to the apprentice like it doesn't make sense such an iconic track though yeah but it just doesn't make sense they've never had a musician on the show right okay and i'm the oldest person that's ever been on that show as far as i know not anyone talks about it because nobody's sort of a look my age like black don't crack it's one of those things but um yeah it was just a sense of purpose so i was like right i need to get as many eyeballs as possible yeah it's one of my favorite shows it's not a typical reality tv show as far as i can see it more as a business show than a reality tv show and i'm like yeah let me go for it and you know luckily i ended up all the way in the final five but because of the short notice nature of that i went on it i didn't have enough time to flesh out the business idea so i knew i'd probably get to the finals because i'm so bloody competitive yeah but i thought if i do get there i won't live to win it but the advice I'd get from the advisor would be prices and it really was because everything was like okay the product idea that you've got is rubbish but you as a person would invest in you all day long and I think that's great you know it's a great endorsement absolutely and the advice I'd give to people is really go for it actually okay I say go for it but be yourself because some people go in there and try and be a bit performative and try to be larger than life and something that they're not because they think that's what they see on the show I would say no be yourself just be yourself but turn up the dialing yourself a little bit yeah don't be a shrinking violet like really go for it.

9:21No, I love that. And we're actually recording in Black History Month, and it's something we do a lot to support, actually. We've had one of the world's first rappers and lawyers come onto the show. We've had some of the top presidents of the Law Society, and incredible people. And we're real allies and try to support and really encourage diversity, equity, inclusion. So I guess from your own perspective, in terms of going through multiple industries, property, music, etc., what do you think more could be done to support black emerging talent coming through? I'm glad you say that, right, because I also have a show on a political show a weekly show saturdays 69 i'm gonna plug it on gb news and gb news is a channel that does skew towards the right and i'm very much centered politically and socially and i'm glad you say that because i think we're now in the sort of trump era where people are like dei is dead and dei is wrong and people just assume if they see a black face you're probably not qualified you're only there because you're dei higher yeah i think that's wrong yeah so first of all i just want to say that I think there should be more encouragement of diversity, but with competency.

10:20Don't just put someone in that's not good because they do the whole movement a disservice. But I think the thing I like about diversity is you've got diversity of ideas and diversity of creativity. You know, if I look at, say, our journey musically, that was an amalgamation of growing up Nigerian in a Westinger neighbourhood with all of the myriad of cultures in my neighbourhood, which is Notting Hill. So it's something that diversity brings, whether it's ethnic diversity, religious diversity, it could be gender diversity. It just adds a richness that otherwise wouldn't be there because the old world was a much more sort of male, pale, stale sort of world and also socially, economically, much more of an Oxbridge-type world where, you know, mama and papa and they handed it on and you didn't get much creativity.

11:02I mean, can you imagine hip-hop existing in a world that was as rigid as that, right? Yeah. And I think I love the fact you're starting to see it in all sorts of spaces, even in banking and stuff like that. So I'm really encouraging of the DEI in and of itself. I just think it's great. But as long as it's not performative, I think there are a lot of organizations that talk about it, but don't really do it. There are a lot of organizations now that are scaling back because obviously whatever happens in America, you know, America sneezes, we catch a cold. So people are starting to dial back on it.

11:28And I think that's really, really sad. And I think for people of color or from sort of, you know, genders that are marginalized or underrepresented, like women, for instance, in the FTSE 100, 100 is not many women at CEO or C-suite levels. I think really lean into being better than you even need to be. Yeah. And it sounds crazy when I say that because I grew up in a culture, a Nigerian culture, where it was before the woke era. And I hate using that term, but for want of a better word, I didn't have this sense of complaining because I was black or it's not fair. Yeah. I grew up in a culture where my dad said to me, you've got to work three times harder because you're black.

12:05and I think that's becoming more true now as people are starting to dial back on the I think be bloody good yeah be as amazing as you can be but I think do more in terms of organize more be seen more like that's why I've gone near Brent is be known more become so so attractive almost as your own personal brand that people want to work with you and I think that's one of the biggest advantages of being someone of color or someone that's not the norm in whatever industry you are people remember you yeah so i walk into a space i'm even here like there's not that many black faces i love that yeah i don't feel intimidated by it i love it why because people are going to remember me of course i think lean into that strength don't lean into the fact that i'm a you know i'm a minority and it's going to be hard i think it's going to be easier yeah i actually think i have a massive advantage growing up with the sense of you've got to work three times harder and being fully self-expressed in my self-identity i'm very proud of it and just yeah going for it I have a crazy amount of confidence.

13:03Crazy. Love it. Yeah. Hopefully I answered your question. Barely any sleep. So I'm trying to like keep it all in my head. That's rather than being a new dad. It's like no sleep. And the key point about it is, you know, if you're not visible, you're almost invisible in the world we live in nowadays. So it's really key. But another thing to add to that though, be of service though. So when I say be visible, don't do the whole ego. It's not about you. Yeah. Serve with people. So be of service. My thing, I want to be known. I don't want to say famous because it's a stupid word for that I'm concerned.

13:26but I want to be known because the more known I am the more I can disseminate all of my ideas and my ideas I believe are to make people great at what they do and who they are and I think if you're like that that's why nothing will get in my way because I don't care how many times I fail because it's not for me I really want to make a difference because like I say after my brother died I don't know how long I've got and I want people to remember me as Trey was that kind of person that wanted you to be your best and do well that's why I want to be known I love that My late grandfather used to say to me, live respected, die regretted.

13:55And I remember saying to people when I live at talks is, if you want to be known, create. But if you want to be trusted, educate. And so what we try and do with everything here is we try and educate people, right? And you build that trust and that voice of authority, and then you can go out there and do great things. It's amazing. But you've cut across so many different industries. And you're a successful entrepreneur. What are some of the traits you look for when either business partners or employing people or, again, people who might be thinking of going on an entrepreneurial journey? What are some of the traits you look for?

14:22I think generosity, like what I just said, it's not about me. Okay. That's what I loved about The Apprentice. I think even to this day, I get stopped all the time. I was not expecting that. And it's not just stopped like Love Island. Oh my God, you want to show? It's stopped like, Trey, you inspired me. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. Because I didn't necessarily set out consciously to be, let me be inspirational, because then that's like an inauthenticity. I was just being me. Yeah. And who I am naturally someone that wants to give. I want to point to other people. It doesn't mean I don't want to compete against you and smash the hell out of you.

14:50Yeah, of course. but I want you to also be your best. So I look out for qualities of real contribution, generosity. I like people who want to make a difference. I talk a lot about Ubuntu, and a lot of people don't know what that means, but it's this African philosophy of if I win, you win. And someone else said something else to me, it was a new concept, which is radical collaboration. That's why I'm doing it here with you. I'm not someone thinking, I'm too big, or I'm doing that, or mate, are you going to pay me? What are you going to do? Who do you think you are? My thing is no. I think be someone that radically, radically collaborates with other people, especially when there's congruency.

15:26Collaborate where, you know what, I want you to really win. Because even from a business point of view, people never forget that. Because I always remember how you made them feel. Exactly. So I'm a big networker and one of my companies, Sober Club, is all about networking. People always remember that. So when you're doing business, people always come back to you. So I look out for people who want to contribute, people who have a purpose and a vision beyond them. I love people who generally think about their contribution as what they're going to do is going to reverberate through time and I said that on The Apprentice you know there's no accident that me and my brother ended up being musicians, why?

15:55because music reverberates through time it's the biggest contribution you know I've gone through, can I sway on this or can I talk how I want? probably not I went through a lot of shit in my life medically and I deal with a lot of different medical conditions one of which is severe tinnitus and one of my biggest heroes is Beethoven because when he did the Ninth Symphony he had to be turned around by the audits because he couldn't even hear so even without realizing in fact he did because he talked about in these diaries he always had a lot of suicidal ideation and i've gone through that myself with my health but he recognized that his contribution was bigger than him yeah so there i was what 170 years later this young kid in notting hill going for the most horrendous suffering with tinnitus and other health and conditions thinking sometimes you know what maybe i've got to jump off a building his legacy fed into me and without those kind of people pouring into me i may not be here so i love people that think about their contribution as reverberating through time steve jobs is another one i mean all of us in our pockets has steve jobs legacy yeah i love that so i like people who think beyond themselves how am i gonna actually have a positive impact on society which is why i do the news channel that i do because i want to impact the world i see the way the country's going i want to be part of that conversation especially now with a young son so those traits generosity um integrity um even things like just aliveness and alacrity people who are like alive like you've got that look you're in red you've got everything's energy yeah everything's energy i love the whole energy of people who have this positive spirit people who are negative i run away from them i'm like no no don't infect any of that stuff it's you know you've got radiators or drains you will be around those radiators some people are drainers and another thing i think i showed you this right i always walk around with this right when I'm going to go talk.

17:36Do you know why I walk around with this? Why do I walk around with a rolled up toothpaste when I'm going to speak and do an event like this? What does this signify? You want to look on point? No. Excellent. So you know what's weird about this, right? We have more reverence for this little tube of toothpaste than we have for our life. What does it signify? I grew up crazy poor in Notting Hill. My dad on paper was a very wealthy man, but in practice he was poor because he was in property and he never let out his property. That's a different story for another day, right? But we used to roll up the toothpaste while we wanted to squeeze everything out.

18:09Most people don't live life like this. I love that. This is my analogy of, and that's why people think, oh, Trey, you've gone from music to this. I believe in the power of reinvention. You've always got something left to give. You said it earlier, I think. You said it about your granddad, right? Most people, they've done surveys off at the end of life. You know what they regret? They regret what they didn't do, not what they did do. So this is my reminder always to keep squeezing out every bit of talent every bit of purpose, every bit of service. Because if we can do it for bloody toothpaste, and everyone every morning uses this, why do we leave so much?

18:40And so many people you know leave so much left to give. I'm going to start that business then. I'm going to marry that person then. I'm going to leave this bloody corporate job then. No, no, do it now. Squeeze everything you can. And most people are too terrified because they're worried about failure. Maybe they're worried about success, which was my brother's issue. But no, I want to squeeze every single drop that I've got. Because someone listening, maybe even to this podcast, just like I was inspired by Beethoven it might be inspired by me so I want to keep squeezing out everything I've got in service of other people and it's so important I love that and it's not one day it's day one right it's take action straight away exactly I love that and to your point earlier about you know collaborating with people we talk a lot about collaboration as domination and actually coming together with other people like we is greater than me and I just love your whole mindset and mantra so with that and supporting one another where can people go to find out more about what you're working on and tell our listeners where they can find out more and support you so guys you can find me at treylo and that is on linkedin is at treylo and instagram is at treylo i think on facebook at treylo and trust me guys i've got people that will look through my um all of my socials and i'll definitely get any message that you guys send but you can also go to sobo club.com as well and find that about our networking events and training company and that is s-o-b-o club.com and at the moment we've actually got an amazing training that's training people how to do this is the speakers training because most people's biggest fear other than that is this, holding a mic.

20:02And I really want people to get used to holding a mic and sharing their story because, you know, like when I was in the depths of hell, I relied on people who'd share their story to keep me going. So whoever you are, you've got a story. There's something you've got in you that's going to inspire, perhaps even save someone's life. Never be afraid to hold this mic and share your story. So yeah, that's where you can find me. And that's my company, SoboClub.com. Inspirational, amazing. chip. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. It's so great to finally make you in person after all these years. Thank you for the difference you make as well.

20:34Thank you. We appreciate that. So here we have it, folks, wrapping up the Legally Speaking podcast live at the Festival of Entrepreneurs, but from Trey and the iconic body guru for now, over and out. Good morning, everybody. Today, we are talking about who supports the CEO. So my name is Rob Hanna. I'm founder of KC Partners. I'm also the host of the Legally Speaking podcast, which is the number one podcast for law in the UK, ranked in top 1 % of shows in the world. And we're sponsored by an organization called Clio, which is a legal tech business with a$3 billion valuation. I'm joined by a star-studded panel today.

21:08I'm going to go from left to right for some short introductions, and then I'm going to get into today's discussion. So please finally introduce yourself. I'm Darren O 'Reilly, and I'm the co-founder of Pulse Up. Pulse Up is a high-protein, sutra-fruited shape. basically what our philosophy is when your foundation is strong your potential is unlimited and that starts with nutrition so we want to do is create a formulation and support people under busiest days we've been nominated our name food and drink startup of the year and in a short period of time we've shipped over 450 000 meals across the uk and ireland and then to about 28 other countries around the world uh hello well so my name is feta ru i'm a lady statistic We are the world's largest CEO, care, advisory and coaching business.

21:55Good morning, everyone. I'm Raj's CEO co-founder of our PITRO. Our products enable athletes at all levels to recover faster and perform better. You work with 300 Pro Sport teams across the world, including some of the greatest athletes on this planet. On the planet, we actually worked with NAPD and SpaceX on two missions so far.

22:14Tre Lowe:Good morning, everybody. I'm the CEO and founder for Arthur Barry. is a network with a neuromontic chip, which is AI on the chip. And we monitor major infrastructures like tunnels, bridges, anything that humans use basically have a big infrastructure. We actually monitor, so we monitor crossrail, tideway, Australian tunnels and automains, Singapore, Java flyover. And we make sure things doesn't collapse, basically. so we provide a huge amount of data and that data helps engineers to make a decision that it gives them not just data it's actually a prediction as well how days are going during that construction so there we have it folks i'm looking after bodies to looking after bridges everything in between that's what i love about event side is such diversity of business interests such interesting things we can learn from startup founders and entrepreneurs we're going to start from sort of solo founder to supported leader i'll come to you first for all this actually is you left the career in banking very successful one to build your business were now used by as you mentioned over a hundred elites for teams so what was the first moment you realized you couldn't do it alone as a ceo yeah so i think from from day one to be honest and actually i'm not i'm not a solo fan of a co-founder actually and i've got so much respect for anyone who's a solo founder of business because it's so far to do a hero and one piece of advice would be if you are starting any as far as founder here, would be to find co-founders.

23:45It's amplifying your network, your amount of work you do, people can live and breathe it, bleeding it with you as well. And then promote CEOs of the sector. So though I have co-founders, I'm still the CEO, so they have different roles in there. So my job is very different as well to theirs. We're operating from a blue ocean environment where no one's done what we've done before. You're constantly seeing challenges and issues that you've no idea what to do. and so you often have a problem today which you'll find a solution for tomorrow I've got to find that and it's not going to all come from me so I really value kind of collective intelligence around me and that can be in the call team that can be advisors that could be coaches and if my job really the CEO is to leverage for intelligence ask the right question and pull it together with expertise in different areas particularly where I'm weak in so for example I love even Martin Teard that's not something I've got naturally to me that can leverage expertise and that we can't be fine solution very poorly.

24:43Love that. I said it yesterday, we is greater than me. I think you could come together as we're talking about in terms of co-founders, super powerful. Neck, we'd love to come to you because, you know, the Steve Sports said there are 45 ,000 plus leaders globally. So from your perspective, why do great CEOs need strong advisory and peer networks to avoid isolation? Thank you. So even as a co-founder, I can say, you're out there on your own. you don't have all the answers. And I think reading how great CEOs have the humility to know that and they have that great mindset and they really want to know out and seek advice and perspectives from a diverse group of peers, quite frankly.

25:22And that's exactly what we do is that we bring together those CEOs from non-meeting businesses and create that safe space where they can kind of strategize with other people who don't have any best interest in their business, quite frankly, other than just supporting another fellow leader. It's that sense of community as well, I feel. And, you know, I said it yesterday, you're only one connection away potentially changing your life, maybe your business, maybe your aspirations. They can unlock that piece of gold. Darren, I was talking about actually the core coming on stage, but I'm coming to you, Adam, and as a former sort of very successful professional rugby player turned co-founder, what parallels do you see between needing a support team and going your business, basically?

26:00Yeah, it's a great question. I think the parallels are muscle. So I've been fortunate enough to be kind of coached and managed by some of the best coaches around is Mike Ruddard on our show. But they always did bring outside support to give examples of teamwork. And then by getting a great team, not one individual wins. You all win collectively or you all lose collectively. So when we look at building culture and the word culture, you're finding around a lot, particularly in Sardle. what you really want to be able to do is harness the right behavior pattern and understand what intrudence it can motivate people to be the best sell version of themselves so for example some people are really motivated by the flexibility of the time so if they have a young family you've been able to come in a little later free office or leave a little earlier but log on and maybe do that work last other people it's all around money other people it's around promotion and being able to do that so if you understand that motivates individuals and then give them the freedom to one whatever area the business is like it you said or certain areas of business i am definitely not the right person to be doing it but you need to be able to keep your freedom and motivation to be able to take complete ownership and that's how you build the right theme around it and also the right environment and it shows that you genuinely care i think they're not just a number they're a person and they change so from my own perspective having illegal headhunting business we don't say we place somebody once we place them for life and maybe when they first start they are interested in the money maybe they are prepared to do the hours maybe family like comes along and they're looking for that little bit more flexibility and as an organization if people stay with you need to understand that their top priority actually at the moment versus maybe what's on the the dial and that improves pretension it just improves the overall culture it's just win-win all around okay he but as again a founder yourself when did you realize you needed help?

27:53Tre Lowe:Well I wish actually somebody in a trash told me that that you need another founder because I am a sole founder and I founded the business 12 years ago but I was very fortunate you know from the age of 18 as an engineer actually worked in a NASA from Berlin arm which is very successful in terms of chip design and app designs and work with amazing engineers throughout to actually help an architect what cortex people uses today in their phones and i think the major things for me is always we needed people to connect and people to advise us and to read it in a certain way. And it doesn't matter from your founding wishes, they probably don't understand exactly what you're doing to people around you.

28:45Tre Lowe:But somebody who's like a Tudor Brown, which is the founder of Arm, I'm still in touch with them. He advised me on regular basis. Professors during universities that I worked with, like Andy Terrell and David Cardwell, Davis Howard. just like they've been really, really there for me when we have technical challenges and need certain people in the company from technicality. And strategically, you're looking for, as you said, basically, where are the holes, where are the locks, and you're trying to put a really good team around you to help out in strategic decisions and critical decisions and when you take it.

29:33Tre Lowe:And I'll say I've always heard people who are better than me and they understand things that I don't understand because you need really different people around you. So your team is a core and having the right team is crucial. Yeah, and that leads nicely onto the next part of the discussion, which is the right kind of support because advice is great but bad advice is actually devastating and i'm talking from experience and i say specific is terrific so raj at vitro and you know scientific rigor credibility absolutely to what you're about so how do you choose the right advisors and experts to support you so i think again it's that point about understanding the gaps that you have in your of your kind of own team and your own knowledge but also finding the right people as often as either the hiring is going to fall with difficulty as well.

30:25And one of the things that we do is firstly look to our own network for the relevant individuals, so we have a referral to that. And then what we'd like to do at High Cove, is almost try before we buy. So can you work with them for a short period of time, be how they fit in? Because lots of people come to start, especially when you see your high growth saying, we can take you to the next level, we can do this, and we want 1 % of the business. And it's like, you don't know what outcomes are going to come from working with them. So we often have a period of time all working together before we commit.

30:56And actually what we've seen is a lot of our advisors at startups are investing. So they're a great way to start as well. So they've actually really believed in what we're doing. They've got money into the business. We then work with them for a bit. And actually our chief strategy officer at the moment, she started as just an investor. And that's a great way to do it. And they've got skin in the game. And when it's the bad times, they still care. You know, they don't go running because they're invested in it. And I think that's important. Okay, Rebecca, coming to you, you've launched the scale, tons of brown.

31:20is very successful, chief of now of his prestige. How should CEOs go about thinking, building an advisory board or indeed leadership team that truly challenges rather than being just a yes? Yeah, I think it's so beautiful because you don't want to create an echo-tober of just people that are validating your own thoughts. You know, KKMG did a study 20 years ago now that actually diversity brings higher performance in teams that you do want to bring people to compliment you and that will challenge because one say you know you don't want to just keep doing the things that you're doing you have to think outside the box business is moving so quickly today and you know the pace of innovation change you need that talent nothing changes if nothing changes and i've seen it time and time again people are taking the same result or they keep agreeing on the same principle as we need to bring in that new energy that probably are going to you know provide feedback even if it's from a negative or constructed way and you need to find a way of actually utilizing and have fuel it to take the business forward.

32:20So, Darren, coming back to you, why is it in force of people outside of your business who challenge you from a leadership? Oh, look, it's critically important because everybody can strategize, but sometimes you need to be able to see the wood from trees. And for, like Taraj's point, we've been fortunate enough to bring on some really good board advisors as well as investors. Frank's involved in business. So, for one, he's the killer. He knows exactly what he wants and how he wants to go about it. but he also has scalability. He's managed organizations of the four or five, six thousand people. We're a lean team.

32:55Like when I say lean, we're really lean. But he's also able to help bridge the gap from uncertainty to certainty pretty quickly because he's seen where other businesses have made that estate. We're extremely fortunate to have somebody like him in the business but I would really encourage everybody in the room if you're looking for support. Use your network, reach out to people. It was a call that I reached for Frank that are engaging Spire. Then I introduce it to another person on our board and the main thing is be coachable. Be able to listen to what these seasoned entrepreneurs and CEOs are able to advise you.