Legally On The Move: The Lawyers Retreat is Back in Ibiza 2026 - Special Poolside Panel - E01

0:00Welcome to Legally on the Move, The Lawyer's Retreat Ibiza 2026, a special Legally speaking podcast miniseries sponsored by Clio. We're back here in Ibiza as the official media partner for The Lawyer's Retreat. And if last year taught me anything, it's this, when you get the right people in the right environment, good conversations quickly turn into real opportunities. Across this series, we'll be bringing you voices, ideas, and honest reflections from a retreat built around leadership, wellbeing, AI, growth, business development, and the future of law. So whether we're poolside, post-panel, or catching up in between sessions, expect practical insights, fresh thinking, and conversations that go beyond the surface.

0:45So let's get into it. Welcome everyone to this very special poolside panel conversation hosted by the Legal Screen Podcast. I'm your host, and this panel today is built all around one big question, and that is, is your law firm designed for where the profession is going or is it just optimized for where it has been? And we have four fantastic panelists joining me today who will all introduce themselves upon me asking the first question. So let's get into it. Okay, so we've all stepped away from our day today to be here out in Ibiza. So I'd love to come to you first, Stephanie. Firstly, please do introduce yourself briefly and then answer the question, which is what is one question that law firm leaders are often too busy to ask themselves.

1:36Over to you Stephanie. So hello I'm I Stephanie Boyce former president of the Law Society of England and Wales and chair of the Solicitors Charity. So I think the one question that individuals should be asking themselves who perhaps are too busy not to is time. To quote Oprah Winfrey time is the most precious thing we have and actually how are we using that time? So I think that's the question that they should be thinking about is time and how are we using that? Are we getting the most out of it? Wonderful. And please pass the mic to left to Emma. Please kindly introduce yourself and answer the question.

2:16Hi, I'm Emma Gray, joint managing partner at Black Aders with a Scottish law firm with officers in Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee and Glasgow. Well, I can't follow that with a quote, Stephanie. You've kind of stumped me a bit there. but I think it's absolutely about looking towards the future, the development of our people and the next generation of lawyers and how we can build something for them to follow on with and pre-empt what's coming next and be fit for the challenges of the future and equip our people with the best skills, the best training and the best opportunities to harness what's there for the future.

2:49Thank you very much and please pass the mic down. There'll be a lot of passing the mic around. And we have Alex, please introduce yourself to the same question. Hi there, I'm Alex McPherson. I'm managing partner of Ignition Law. We're a B Corp law firm that works with entrepreneurs and SMEs. I would agree with Stephanie. Actually, time is the most important question that people aren't asking themselves. It's finite. I think the Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson said, compare yourself, a bit like fitness, to who you were yesterday, not who other people are today. And I think it's the resource we've all got that's finite, that however you package it law firms, be it subscription, fixed fee, value-driven pricing, actually ultimately at the back end we've still got 24 hours in a day and that has to align with your culture and what you're trying to achieve in your firm.

3:35And the bit we're struggling with to get right is kind of almost what you don't do with it, how you delegate, how you bring in the right roles to make the most of the time you've got. Brilliant, thank you very much. And Sarah please introduce yourself, same question. Hi I'm Sarah Dodd, I'm the founder and owner of Tree Law, so the only UK law firm that focuses on all sorts of things around trees and I would say one question that perhaps we don't largely stop and think about as lawyers is what are other people doing in other sectors I think we get a lot of inspiration in tree law from other industries and other businesses so for example across our social media channels etc just trying to look at what works in other businesses can we apply that to law if people don't generally apply it to law why not think it might work give it go if it does do it.

4:20Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for those introductions and those reflections. And I think that's a really good place for us all to start and everyone in the audience and people watching online as well. You know, what is that key question that some of your firms might be avoiding? Sit with that as we go through this discussion and maybe share amongst yourselves afterwards as well. So I'd like to come back to Stephanie, if I may. You know, you've been through some incredibly complex moments throughout the profession. As you mentioned, you're the former president of the Law Society of England and Wales as well.

4:46When leaders are under pressure, What separates calm leadership from reactive leadership? I think, well, personality is a big one, but I think it's also what separates them out is that empathy, curiosity, actually the bigger vision. You know, who are we there for? What are we there for? And I think it's remembering and going back to the values, your own personal values, but also remembering that you are part of a team. And, you know, for me, communication was a big thing. I absolutely believe that if people understand where you're going and you communicate that to them, they are more inclined to follow you, to understand and be part of that.

5:42rather than push against it. So, yeah, I think there's, I mean, and I could go on, you know, there's lots of things, but I think curiosity is a big thing that I think sometimes is absent, asking the right questions at the right time. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. So I'd love to come to you, Emma, next on the realities of running a modern law firm, if I may, because, you know, you're in a position many people in the audience here will recognise. You're leading a firm while also staying close to your clients and the delivery side of things. So what do people underestimate in terms of the reality of running a modern law firm?

6:21I think the impact that it has on your whole life. So I love getting up and looking at some of the things we've been through today on the lawyers retreat and are the right people in the right seats. And one of the questions that we looked at earlier today, do you jump out of your bed and do you want to go in and do what you do? Absolutely, 100%. And I love the way we are developing and evolving as a firm. The leadership team have all been there. They've all been trainees. They've all been through it. They've all done it. We're all having the client-facing roles and telling people about delivery and service and how much that means.

6:57But also very much that there is no one size fits all for who you should be as a lawyer or a leader. You can very much be yourself in this profession. and I think that's hugely hugely important to us as a firm and the culture that we are bringing to it the number of times that I've heard people say surely she can't be a lawyer or surely she can't be a managing partner I you know I lose count of and so for me it's bringing that to everybody that crosses our door and really important to me it's not just the lawyers in the law firm or the paralegals it's every single person that is at a touch point with you that you're building them that you're there also so we're there for our clients but we're also massively there for our people and our people i want them to want to come into work to experience something and to actually say i get to work here that is that's one of the things that is hugely hugely important yeah i love that and that's so important is it because people is ultimately what you are you are selling to the market alex we had a heard earlier um we had johnny obviously talking a lot about the the eos and sort of various systems so let's talk to you about sort of protecting time and indeed building system As someone who's built and scaled a modern entrepreneurial law firm, I think it's a great job what you've done, by the way.

8:06Congratulations with Ignition Law. How have you personally gone about protecting time to work on the business rather than constantly being pulled back into it? So, I mean, I think it's, and it was a great session that Johnny did this morning on the EOS framework. So I think there's a lot of work we still need to do on that, including around the difference between the integrator, the COO, if you like, and the visionary and I think what we have done relatively well is is working out what you're not going to do in that classic not saying it in an aspirational sense but the the difference between a billionaire and a millionaire is the ability to say no and actually starting to work out what you're not going to do and and I think probably labeling um as a leader things you're weaker at like I'm not good on numbers I'm not good on recruitment because everyone's in the door and they're they've joined before anyone and I think actually once you kind of give that permission and technically saying maybe you're going to lean into management, you're going to lean into growth and visionary elements.

9:08Often you can't monopolise all of the skills. So empowering people that maybe are stronger technically and actually labelling that and being open with clients on that actually makes different lawyers, different personality types feel empowered to kind of grow and develop and actually do what they do best. So I think it's quite a simple point, but actually starting to label what behaviours are important to you in your law firm allows you to kind of work out those two elements, what you're not going to do and who's best to do the things that you are going to do. Yeah, I wish someone had taught me that very early on because there's lots of things I was focusing on in my business, which it wasn't good enough for.

9:46And I think, you know, sometimes you need that harsh lesson a lot quicker. we've heard earlier a lot about purpose and why so I'd love to come to you now Sarah because you've built tree law around a very specialist area and a very clear point of view so what gave you the confidence to go so narrow rather than broad where you see certain other firms operate um naivety appreciate the honesty and it took me a while to be brave enough to say naivety but I think I'm only going to start a law firm once I haven't started a business before so yeah there was a huge amount of naivety I don't think you go into setting something up really truly appreciating the enormity of what you're going in to do but what I knew I was going into was something that I was hugely passionate about that I had a lot of experience in and if I felt like if anyone could build it I can and I wouldn't say that I'm a hugely confident person just generally across the board but I was very confident in my passion around that and I thought if I can't do it no one can and also if it fails i'll go and do something else absolutely yeah you can always get a job or something else i want to stay with you uh sarah because you know interestingly what would you say to law firm owners who perhaps worry about niching down and potentially thinking they might be losing business i don't know like i've heard a lot about niche micro niche you know niche down it's your it's just superpower be clear about what you do people know how to find you like let's be fair tree law is amazing for seo i mean if you're googling i've got a tree problem we pop right up i'm not paying anything on google ads um so yeah i would say have the confidence to do that and if it's something you're passionate about if it's something that you enjoy you're going to enjoy that journey in that process and you can start nation i guess grow i mean i was thinking like could we grow in tree law i was thinking maybe we could take on some family lawyers and go like family tree law?

11:40I don't know. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Okay, I've got a group question now. So quick fire and I'll start at the end, perhaps and we'll work down so we can pass the mic down in the meantime. We've heard a lot today about AI compliance, the future of sort of legal service delivery. So clients want faster, easier, more transparent experiences. Lawyers obviously want quality trust and control. So again, what should law firm leaders start to do in terms of modernizing their firms but without losing that human connection? Yeah well we've already started on that journey in terms of our adoption of AI we have a legal tech committee within the business and that's made up from very junior people right in the door who have got all the ideas to my joint managing partner so it's super super keen to harness it what we're also super keen to do is to ensure that our lawyers are equipped with the skills that they need because we will always need to be to be human and that's one of our sort of four pillars of what we are as a farmer never losing sight of being human and the skills in our private client division is hugely successful we need people to have the manner to be able to to treat and learn and our people are learning from the very very best in the industry seeing doing a computer will never be able never be able to to give the service that we give on that front but harnessing it and using it and getting rid of the crap that that we don't need to be wasting our time on and truly valuing the extra that we can bring that a computer will never bring but yeah we need to use it we need to harness it but we need to actually be understanding and and valuing and and charging for what we bring a computer will never bring love that thank you stephanie we'd love to get your your thoughts on that let me turn it to the profession because obviously you know the profession is more than just law firms and of course my background is steeped in uh in-house and and you know having not practiced since 2019 now because my whole vision if you like is to show the wider world that actually the law is more than just the strict letter of the law that actually touches every part of our lives we can't escape it um but it bothers me it continues to bother me how little people know about the law or appreciate about the law.

13:52So I think above all, it's about research. It's about doing your homework and ensuring that actually, whatever it is that you're signing up to, whatever it is that, you know, you are putting out or saying, if you're going to do it, do it, do it well, but do it with authenticity. You know, remember, I will say, remember why we got into this business in the first place as lawyers. And, you know, there's lots of noise out there at the moment and we've got lots of things coming at us but it's important that we remember actually the values and what those values are and you know let that be our north star guidance star whatever star but the whole point is let us remember you know and go back to every single time those values and that vision as well and just remember that the whole kindness and empathy of it sometimes we perhaps are chasing the bigger picture, but there's no clarity on what that bigger picture might be.

14:54And then we kind of wake up one day and find ourselves thinking, what happened? So for me, it's doing that research, you know, get the information. Don't just go with the noise and the headliners. But remember, before you make the bigger decisions, remember what we're in this space for. Why did we get into this space? and who are we actually there to serve? I love that. I said it earlier as well. We're drowning in information but craving wisdom. Some real great wisdom shared there. Thank you, Stephanie. We'd love to come to you, Alex, because with Ignition you absolutely are on that journey of sort of modernising in a modern law firm.

15:27So how have you been able to do that and continue to do that whilst keeping that human connection? Thanks, Rob. And I echo all those two great answers. I mean, I think, I mean, taking a difference within that question, how do you modernise without losing human values? I guess it presupposes you've got human values I know there are many firms that maybe are still working on that. And I think that have you got human value starts probably with a clear mission statement with knowing what your values are without meaning to sound trite. Many firms are still trying to get that right or trying to reset that post merger, post acquisition, post aqua hire.

16:00And then I think you have to be clear what the behaviors are that link to the mission statement and the values to underpin it. then you've got the human values in the first place and and and you'll refresh them over time the the first part is how do you modernize and that that's the challenge where you have to accept that there's going to be change and it's going to be dynamic and and that that's nerve-wracking for lawyers because most of us myself included creatures of habit routine like structure like process and and it's a time where you have to accept there's some unknown unknown and i and i think one way that's it's it's it's it's easier is if you are like everyone on the panel very kind of mission driven and and values oriented just just just like you were saying this in your answer and then i think that makes it easier because you can actually go on a mission and you've got clarity as to what you're trying to achieve and also how people might diverge in the process which which is the other hard part of that dynamism.

17:00So I think that's the bit we're trying to navigate. You've probably also got to have aligned incentives to change the firm. You know, one of the challenges sometimes in incredibly successful traditional LLP firms is there may not be that buy-in at the top, which isn't to say they're a bad firm or anything like that. There might not be that buy-in to affect change. And so getting that in the organisation and aligned incentives to go on that journey, take that risk, fail together, is I think how you hold the dynamism and the clarity of human-led culture together. Thank you. Sarah, your thoughts?

17:35I think we've got an advantage here because we're relatively young still. We're coming up to our fifth birthday now. So I think the critical element of the business is the people. We've recently established or re-established our mission, our visions and values. And our visions and values are that we're fresh and passionate. We nurture both each other and our clients. We're growing and we're experts. And there's humanity linked through all of that. So I think we've got being human front and centre in the business. Yes, we're on a huge AI journey. But when we're inputting information into AI to get information out, you know, that is me as an expert with my network, my background, my experience, my knowledge, my passion.

18:18It's that that's asking AI to give me information. So I think although we might have stuff generated by AI and certainly are increasingly reliant on it, it is done in a very human way. So I think lucky for me, we have our humans at our centre. Absolutely. Just raise your hand if you've learned something or something thought-provoking so far during the interview in the audience. Yeah, me too. That's why I love doing these sessions. You'll also see, I want to bring everyone in the audience together now. You'll see some Legally Speaking podcast branded leaflets. just think about your own firm or your own business what's one thing you already know needs to change but you've been too busy to properly confront it because that's what these retreats these things are all about to sort of really go deep on some of the things that you're taking a time out of your business to reflect on it to then go back and actually unlock those challenges or problems that you might be experiencing so write them down and then share with one another later this evening actually have some intentional conversations Okay, coming back to our panellists, I want to talk a little bit now around perhaps people's views and perceptions.

19:18So we'll go right from the end again, passing the mics down if you may to Emma. Do you think some firms are still underestimating how quickly the market is changing? 100%. We see it across the board. And in terms of the people that are attracted to our firm, our lateral hires, they see that we are doing things differently. there's still an old-fashioned closed-off element to some aspects of the legal business the legal world so yeah just really um I think I suppose focusing on that we are future thinking forward looking and equipping everybody to moving forward I think is really important. Thank you and Stephanie probably from a broader perspective as you shared before in terms of the profession you know are people still underestimating how quickly the market is changing not just necessarily law firms, but broader?

20:08Well, I think there's that. But there's also the question of resources. You know, the profession is a very diverse profession in terms of what we practice, where we practice, who we practice. And I think there's an assumption that at all times that, you know, all firms have the same infinite resources and access to information and so forth. so those who are perhaps better resourced are absolutely you know they can do the horizon scanning they can invest in the up-to-date technology and and you know and the skill set and and so forth whereas if you are a smaller firm if you like perhaps struggling and we've got lots of firms at the moment who are in that position but actually they don't have the bandwidth to look at what's coming down the line.

21:05And one of the things during my time in office that I was quite vocal about is how do we share those resources across the profession? So we've got the bigger firms who are creating, incubating and creating and all sorts, but we've also got the smaller firms, the mid-sized firms, who, as I say, perhaps don't have the resources, the knowledge, the know-how um how can we share that um and i think that's something that we're still working on and something that actually we have to think about and we should be doing and should be better at well said alex over to you yeah i mean building on that last point i think um think about smes and thinking about uh the mid-market area of law i think certainly what we see at ignition where we'd be kind of mid-market now, I guess, at 60-odd of us, is building on Stephanie's part, I think smaller firms represent the vast majority of the roughly 9 ,000-odd law firms in a country there or thereabouts, and actually, it's not, there's an awful lot at the smaller end, and a lot of those are one and two sole practitioners, and I think certainly what we see is challenges would change in that area where at least in some respects those firms are trying to trying to keep the lights on you know one is that one crisis could be existential the resources um go into into fixing one issue whereas with a degree of scale you get the clarity on some of the points we were talking about earlier so i think that's definitely a change where it might well be the case that firms want to do all the right things want to invest and want to affect change and grow profession but but it's another thing if you're you know if you're running it for 600 ,000 pound turnover desperately trying to keep the lights on and worrying what's coming down the track how you have the the luxury of the fact that change i think one area is how you support and champion those firms um with the dynamism that's coming and and the maybe the lack of resource that they have just by virtue of size and that's quite an interesting area to try and soul for the profession to keep people coming in, keep people setting up firms and doing that in a collaborative, collegiate way.

23:16Yeah, no, absolutely. Well said. And Sarah, I'd love to get your thoughts. I think from the AI session that we had today, it feels like the market is changing at breakneck speeds. And I think to stay ahead is really hard. So, yes, I think I have to conclude that I think we're probably all underestimating a little bit how quickly the market's changing. Yeah, no, absolutely. Again, appreciate everyone's sort of authenticity and honesty. And we're going to sort of do a quick fire, well, quickish fire before we look to close the panel. Tom Blamford took us to 2035 in his session, which I thought was really interesting.

23:46So I'm going to take us back there. So let's all imagine it's 2035. A law firm leader looks back and says, that decision we made in 2026 changed everything. What do you think that decision might have been? Staying with you, Sarah, passing it down. What decision might have been made in 2026 that changed everything? other than booking for the lawyers retreat 2027 you're welcome kirstie and kate oh that is so hard that's so hard i don't know it's gonna have to do you know what i think it's probably gonna be something that i couldn't anticipate i think i only look back in 2035 and think oh my goodness that thing maybe that small thing maybe that massive thing that we did i had no idea the enormity of the ripple effect of that decision so i could say yeah you know going deep on ai or setting better strategy or really aligning with our values.

24:35I think, yes, all of that. But I think looking back, it's going to be something I just couldn't anticipate. So that's as good as I can anticipate. Yeah, no, again, appreciate it. And we don't always have the exact answers, and that's what we appreciate about these conversations. You've done this before, Rob. It's a very good question. I will go with two elements. So I reckon the doubling down on culture. So I would say lovely office, staying true to, you know, the mission statement, ours being helping entrepreneurial lawyers and clients to thrive. That's kind of got the dynamism we were talking about earlier.

25:12So sticking to our guns on that, that's a non-negotiable culture, each strategy, breakfast logic. So that's sort of not affecting change. the Warren Buffett idea, you know, compound over 10 years to 2035 by sticking to your guns on the things that actually matter. I would take a flyer and say we're overinvested in AI and it will be a bit like the aviation industry in the overall macro. It breaks even with state subsidies. And some of the valuations don't make sense to me in one sense. I think it will get consolidated. law tech will come into play with tools for lawyers so it's keeping um at the forefront it's innovating in the mid-market to build some stuff that's proprietary and quite interesting that protects revenue diversifies revenue but i reckon the place that with ai we've got a really nice um ai tech or legal engine that we're doing a bit of stuff with they're looking at ai in a different place to kind of drafting it's more use of it as a bd agentic ai for helping the client journey, helping with admin.

26:15And I think that's probably the area that it's easy not to, it's easy to get distracted by on the drafting and the kind of super tools. But I think those will get consolidated. So I think not investing in AI that actually drives up margin, revenue, admin, diligence, all the stuff where you can take time back, get yourself off the laptop as many hours a day in the less productive areas of law. I think that's the area not to overlook the use of AI on the next 10 years. Thank you. So I think for me, I think we have to decide what type of profession we want to be. I think increasingly we're going to have to demonstrate our value to not just the public, but to politicians, to regulators and so forth.

27:04And, yeah, demonstrate our value and what we bring up against some of the challenges that have already been mentioned. and why actually the public, our clients, customers, whoever, should come to us and the value we will bring to them. So I think it's a culmination. I think we're going to have to do some deep thinking and really insightful thinking in terms of we're seeing that things are changing very quickly, whether it's technology or whether it's the pressures that are coming from politicians or whatever. but what type of profession do we want to be because I go back to the point about us being a very diverse a very dynamic profession in terms of where we practice what we practice who we practice but we still have some fault lines you know increasingly access to justice and indeed the rule of law is being constantly eroded we're supposed to be you know custodians guardians of the rule of law.

28:04But yet we're seeing that tension. We are a profession that, you know, we get lots of people into our profession. It's very diverse at the junior end, but we still have those sticking points, mid-tier, senior tier, as to who gets ahead in our profession. So for me, it's absolutely that broader thinking as to who or what do we want to be as a profession. Thank you. Thanks, Stephanie. For me, I think the one thing we could really do wrong now is to lose sight of the role we play in developing the next generation of the profession. If we adopt AI too quickly in many senses and slash training numbers and don't bring people through the profession, then we're going to hit a point where senior leaders have nobody to pass down to.

28:59And from a traditional law firm model, well, where is the next generation coming in to take our role and to pay us out our equity in a law firm, essentially? But for me, keeping that key, bringing people through and doing the things that a computer can't do. You'll get the sense that I'm very much a people person and I think it's very important. So yeah, for me, that would be making decisions too rashly and losing sight of what we need to keep going as a firm and to survive beyond this generation of expertise because we have the partner level, the senior associates that know the difference between right and wrong in terms of what AI is generating.

29:43But junior people are not getting the opportunity to learn. I mean, even we're speaking earlier today about comparison tools. I'm a commercial real estate lawyer to trade and I learned how to mark up leases by, back in the day, doing comparisons of documents who said what in one color of pen who'd come back said something else what is your fallback position where do you give in on that that's that's that's going to be lost so for me it's really important that we are are not losing sight of that and bringing people up in it because ultimately we're people we're human and people do want to deal with with humans in a sense yeah and i talk very openly about this on all my podcasts people who listen will be bored to tears and be telling me it's no longer B2B or B2C, it's H2H, it's human-to-human connection, we're all craving that and even more so in the AI revolution.

30:31So I've got a task for everyone who's been in the audience, pick, and I'm picking on the panellists here, after at some point this evening, ask one of them a question with something that has resonated with today just to get their answer and really go deeper with the conversation because I've learned a lot from all four of you so I'd just like to extend a huge thank you to our panellists, to Emma, Stephanie, Alex and indeed Sarah for joining me live here in Ibiza for the full side panel conversation and yeah thank you to all of you a huge shout out also to Kate and Kirsty for hosting another incredible lawyers retreat here in Ibiza and to everyone who's been watching live as well thank you for joining but for now let's get some food and as I always say over and out.

31:09Thank you for listening to this week's episode if you like the content here why not check out our world leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord. Go to our website, www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com. There's a link to join our community there. Over and out.