LinkedIn Live - Burnout in law: Truths we're afraid to face - and how to change them

0:00Sally Clarke:All right, welcome everybody to today's Legally Speaking podcast live proudly sponsored by Clio. And today's conversation tackles a topic many in the legal world know all too well, but rarely talk about openly, burnout. So from billable hour pressure to toxic perfectionism, our guests know firsthand what it takes in terms of the legal industry, in terms of burning out and that best talent. And I'm joined by a phenomenal guest today, the wonderful Sally Clark, a former finance lawyer turned international burnout expert, bestselling author and co-host of We Are Human Leaders. And she's here to help us move from burnout to boundaries and ultimately, hopefully to brilliant.

0:44Sally Clarke:So let's dive into it. And thanks for joining me today, Sally. Such a pleasure to be with you, Rob. Thanks for having me. Oh, no, absolute pleasure. So let's go in terms of understanding burnout and law first, because we see the word burnout pretty much everywhere, but what does it actually mean? It's a great question. So the World Health Organization defined burnout for the first time in 2019 as a syndrome resulting from chronic workplace stress. So they really located burnout as being a workplace issue, an occupational phenomenon. And they identified three dimensions that we use to measure whether someone is experiencing burnout or not.

1:22Now, the first is exhaustion, and that's a really absolute physical, mental and emotional depletion. The second is cynicism, but not sort of in a kind of a fun, snarky kind of cynical way, but it's really about withdrawing from our work, from the profession, but also from our relationships more broadly and even from life itself. And the final dimension is reduced professional efficacy, which simply means you can't do what you used to be able to do at the same rate or quality that you're used to. And for those of us who derive a lot of our self-identity and our sort of sense of worth from our professional output, that dimension particularly can almost, it can be really quite scary to experience almost existential sort of in nature.

2:02And that's something that through my work, through my own research, I realized that there's a through line to a lot of burnout that I see that's not necessarily reflected in that definition by the World Health Organization, but it's this feeling of overwhelm and hopelessness, and often a deep sense of isolation, which is really often what stops us from reaching out for help.

2:21Sally Clarke:Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I try to say to people that there's a source of strength if you can find yourself to reach out to people you're going to sort of fast shortcut almost probably the challenges you may have and you're not alone okay so we've talked about what it is in terms of burnout but what causes burnout and specifically why is it so prevalent in the world of law yeah um so the world health organization said you know burnout's caused by chronic workplace stress so what causes chronic workplace stress especially in law um there's some sort of general aspects of our work lives that can really lead to chronic That is, you know, prolonged, relentless, ever-present stress.

2:59And that's, you know, a high workload, having just not enough resources or support to do the work that you need to do. It's that sense of relentlessness. It can also be in sort of extra things in terms of work culture. So if we don't have the best leadership around us, perhaps if there's some bullying and harassment going on, that can also contribute. And low levels of connection and belonging in the workplace can also be a real driver. I think there's a few extra things that the legal profession tends to throw in. One is that we're sort of inherently focused on avoiding all mistakes. So we're really often quite perfectionistic, so really quite critical of ourselves and each other.

3:39And I think that can also add a real sort of layer of self-criticism that can drive us to want to do things perfectly, but not have obviously the time or the resources to ever really be able to do that. And I think there's also a bit of a, in many instances, quite a cutthroat and competitive environment that we find ourselves in in the legal profession. Certainly in the large firm that I worked in, there was a sense of being sort of pitted against one another. So rather than a sense of sort of belonging and team connection, you felt quite isolated. It almost felt like that was on purpose. And I think that does sort of resonate through the legal profession that we sort of feel quite alone.

4:15We're perhaps overwhelmed and struggling, but we're reluctant to reach out for help, in part because our reputation hinges on us doing our work really, really well and sort of putting on that brave face on behalf of our clients. And so I think it makes it almost extra hard for lawyers, for legal professionals to own up to the fact that then just feeling overwhelmed and not coping.

4:36Sally Clarke:Yeah, no, and really well said. And that's what I was going to ask in terms of, you know, so many are suffering in silence. You know, what are the risks of that silence, in your opinion? Yeah, look, it's drastic, because the long term health effects of burnout, that is the, you know, the physiological depletion that we experience are absolutely horrific. You know, I went through a burnout as a corporate finance lawyer. It took me probably a year and a half to regain that sense of physical, mental, emotional energy that I had experienced before. So it took a year and a half for my body basically to recover from what I'd put it through.

5:07There are also issues like, you know, it makes us more susceptible to heart disease. Our immune system is compromised. What I find often resonates most for lawyers is the fact that it can shrink our prefrontal cortex. That means burnout is actually really viscerally inhibiting our ability to be a great lawyer. So it's something that I think we really need to be mindful of. If we care about having a sustainable, long, happy career in the law, there will be stress, of course, because stress is kind of inevitable in life and it can be healthy for us. But really being very mindful of when that stress is starting to flip over into a chronic or ongoing sort of baseline or normal state for us that we really need to watch out.

5:50Sally Clarke:Yeah, we need to look after ourselves, you know, and this, you know, we need to put ourselves first. And I remember a mentor said to me very early on, because I was, you know, young when I first started my business, I was every minute, every hour, everywhere. And he said, Rob, just remember, there's a real power in the pause. I love that phrase. How good is that of power in the pause? And it's so true. And even actually, my I've been not for six for flu the last couple of weeks, but it's actually made me pause a lot. And actually, the thinking power and the chance to kind of recharge and re-energize and get back into things that I've been doing, it's actually, you know, through a setback, I think I've come back even more sort of, you know, positive and looking forward.

6:26Sally Clarke:So, okay, someone listening right now, that lawyer, perhaps that was in a similar situation that you were in, thinks they might be in burnout. What's your advice for them in terms of what they need to do next? I implore you, because one of the key components that often comes up when we're very close to or in burnout is denial. We don't want to acknowledge the fact because we're probably partly speaking for myself as terrified of slowing down, as terrified of what would have to happen if I really acknowledged that I wasn't coping in particular, because I had the perception that everyone else seemed to be fine and that it was just me.

7:00But really it's in the interests of you, your clients, your team, but also everyone else around you that you really acknowledge those signals that you're getting from your body, mind, or your soul, that things are not okay and act on those signals because it can be, it can have such a detrimental effect. I see a lot of people who, you know, as lawyers experience burnout, they end up leaving the profession. And that really makes me sad because we need amazing, bright people in this profession. It's such an important one in our society. So I think really being sort of a bit courageous and actually acting on those signals rather than just sort of sweeping under the carpet and thinking, ah, you know, I'll just, I'll just push through really need to not just push through the power of the pause.

7:45Sally Clarke:And it's so true, isn't it? Because that just pushing through isn't the best version of you either. And I think it's sometimes, you know, not letting that get in the way of thinking, actually, I'm just doing this just because I need to do X, actually the quality of what you do, if you do take these steps back and put yourself first and, you know, really think about how you can be, you know, the most valuable to the people that you are whilst looking so, so important. So I love that. Okay, but I want to kind of, again, there's gonna be a lot of skepticism, people are in like high pressure, you know, people are on millions of pounds, hundreds of thousands of pounds at young ages in law, like that they're earning big bucks, right.

8:18Sally Clarke:And so there is expectations that come with that. And there are client demands. So in your experience, what are the hidden cultural norms in law that quietly feed burnout and still exist today? And what can we be thinking about to try and eradicate them? It's such a big question, Roma. We're seeing, you know, what I'm seeing is in certain sort of small to medium-sized firms, we are starting to see quite a significant cultural shift, even a shift away from the sort of the billable hour model to look at ways that we can really change work culture fundamentally in the legal profession because all too often it is this kind of absolute race of just high stress, quite, you know, cusping on exploitative work cultures that we see where people are really just, you know, squeezed, the life is squeezed out and then someone new comes into a place.

9:10And so I think, you know, if leaders are thinking, what can I do? And I really do think there is an onus on leadership because young people entering the profession are really susceptible to the decisions that leaders make and the culture that they create. It's starting to, you know, the first place you can really start, I think, is to start talking about these kinds of issues, acknowledging what's going on, acknowledging that that's perhaps not as healthy as it could be, but we need to start talking about these issues and de-stigmatising them within the legal profession because you can only change what you've acknowledged.

9:41So starting with that sort of acknowledgement and then moving through perhaps looking at how we can shift our team culture to be a little bit more healthy. Do we need a little bit more resourcing? And are we ensuring, because from a leadership perspective, the wellbeing of your people is a critical driver to their performance, to their productivity, and ultimately to the services that you're delivering to your clients. So you want your people to be well. And it's this thing that I think is still, unfortunately, might be something we get rationally, but we're just not seeing it enough in the legal profession that leaders are truly leading from that place where rest is, for example, built in to the work so that we're getting, you know, those peaks perhaps of deadlines of, you know, of court time, all these things where we understand that there's going to be these peak moments, but the people also have the opportunity to rest, to have their parasympathetic nervous system kick in so that they can close the stress cycle and come back to work refreshed and ready to do amazing things.

10:40So I think there's a lot of different approaches leaders can take. If there's one place they want to start right now, it's really by starting to have that conversation about what's really going on and acknowledging the reality of the situation in their firm or organization.

10:54Sally Clarke:Yeah, really well said. And we're not robots, right? And we will work in a world and generations beneath us will walk in a world with robots like that's that's going to happen. But we're human beings. So if we've got things going outside of work, outside going on or there's other things happening or we're just not, you know, we're not at it. You need to recognize that as a leader and find a way of providing an environment and support so you can bring the best out of those individuals, because that also will ensure long term loyalty. And, you know, I recruit for law firms all around the world and I've seen it many, many times that, you know, somebody's been off sick or, you know, whatever.

11:26Sally Clarke:they're not flavor of the month and as a result of that they don't get given the attention as a result that they leave or actually if you take the opposite approach and genuinely care for you people then you're going to not only increase the the kind of loyalty but the output and the performance and the overall goodwill within the team build a healthier happier culture all of that good stuff okay one thing you touched on there which you know we debate a lot about here on the podcast is the billable hour so do you believe the billable hour is compatible with well-being or is inherently flawed? If I had to pick, I would absolutely go the latter.

12:00I think it's inherently flawed. It's something that was kind of brought into the legal profession. If I understand correctly, it was around the 1960s that it sort of became normalised in law. And I think it's this very archaic, very limited means of measuring productivity that doesn't actually genuinely measure productivity. It's a hassle for lawyers. It's a hassle for clients. And those, you know, those measures that are put on junior lawyers to sort of, you know, hit billable hour requirements. It's just archaic. And I think what I'm seeing in a lot of sort of a few of the firms that I've worked with in Canada, the UK, in Sweden, where they are shifting sort of values-based billing or other sort of modalities is that it's a real shifting culture that comes with that.

12:40I think it also takes a little bit of a mindset shift from the leaders and particularly those who consciously or otherwise feel like, oh, I went through that so everyone else has to go through this kind of horrific culture too. But I think it's really, you know, ultimately we can also bring it to clients in this very positive way as well, right, because it's something that's like we want the best possible service products for you. In order to deliver that, we're shifting to this way of billing and also taking that pressure off of our employees so that they can really perform. So, yeah, I'm absolutely against the billable hour and very much in favour of and championing those, you know, leaders who are starting to experiment with some other ways of doing it.

13:21Sally Clarke:Yeah, and well said. And absolutely, you know, it's time for change, because if nothing changes, nothing changes. And like you say, you know, years gone by, well, we had to do it. Well, why can't we change? Why can't we make things better? Why can't we innovate? You know, the cars we drive get faster, more efficient, get better, you know, us as emotional human beings, why can't we provide better well being better platforms and, you know, pass the torch backwards and help the next generation come through and have better, more fulfilled careers because it's the right thing to do. And I think it's better for all around humanity.

13:52Sally Clarke:Okay, we've talked a lot about leadership, but I want to talk now a little bit deeper on that because you teach a three selves framework, I believe in your leadership session. So can you actually walk us through that and why it's been so transformative? Sure, Rob. Yeah, so it's something that I derived through all of my research that after going through my own burnout, sort of really wanting to understand what I could have done as an individual to fortify myself against chronic stress and prevented that sort of debilitating experience from happening. So the Three Selfs framework, it does exactly that.

14:22It's really a program that we take ourselves as individuals through in order to really foster a strong sense of self-awareness, self-knowledge and self-compassion. So self-knowledge is really knowing who you are at a very deep and fundamental sense, what your core values are, how you want your life to look and feel, what really matters to you, because that really helps you drive really healthy decision making for yourself and others around you. The second layer is self awareness. And this is becoming very attuned to the signals that you receive from your body, mind and soul. So it's these kind of daily practices that we can do to sort of really stay in touch with those signals rather than overriding them and just pushing through.

14:58The final layer, and it's really foundational, this one, Rob, is self-compassion. And that's really ensuring that you derive your self-identity from other aspects of your life than just work and doing this quite intentionally and using some time and energy to do that. It can feel a little counterintuitive and even countercultural, but it really is the foundation layer to creating a strong sense of self. And so your identity is not just derived from your billables or from your work, but you've got this sort of stronger, more fortified sense of self. That then helps you really steer and navigate through challenging times too, but with that sort of sense of alignment with who you are, driving good decisions and driving healthy decisions so you can have that sustainable long-term career.

15:42Sally Clarke:Yeah, and that's what we all want at the end of the day. You know, it is a marathon. So, you know, you don't want to, you know, be chugging through and you look at generations gone past that have and perhaps have suffered a lot in silence as well. Let's open up the conversation. Let's provide some tools. Let's provide some empathy. Let's provide some platforms where people can genuinely flourish and have a far happier workplace and not just people saying can't wait for the weekend you know because that's ultimately what's the point yeah it's so sad it makes me so sad and I think there's a level of cruelty almost to those people who say well we did it so you know we went through that so you have to too I think that's quite cruel in fact because if there's a real opportunity here to create the irony is there's an opportunity to create not just better outcomes for those individuals but also for the firm itself higher performance better products and services delivered to clients when people are living healthy, well lives and being able to sort of really perform at their best, be their best selves.

16:34And I think it's really, it's unfortunate that it still hasn't really sunk in. I think in our profession that that is the case, that wellbeing is the driver of great performance and outcomes.

16:44Sally Clarke:Yeah. And I can understand to a point because of, you know, my late grandfather, he, you know, very traditional, you know, what we're doing now, me being a t-shirt without shoot and tie and top, you know, and very much if you're a minute late and all, and I get that to a point, but, you know, to the point of what you're saying as well, don't get bitter, get better. Like, let's not be bitter about the fact that this is now really at the heart of importance and should have been many, many years ago. And let's make better environments. And let's not be bitter about people perhaps having a slightly easier and hopefully more fulfilling way of into a career, because I think it's just the right thing to do.

17:15Sally Clarke:Okay, let's talk about so burnout to wisdom now, because you've got lots of it share being an expert on this. And we've kind of touched on this, but I want to go a little bit deeper. Burnout isn't failure, it's feedback. What do you mean by that? So burnout is really an opportunity, I think, in a lot of ways. And it might sound like I'm a very optimistic person to frame it in those terms when it is such a debilitating experience at the same time. But it really gives us an opportunity to sort of reassess. It's really like a last, particularly sort of the deepest point of burnout. I collapsed at an airport at one point, and that was really the signal for my body from, well, OK, something needs to change.

17:52But it's sort of a desperate signal that things are not OK. and as much as that can feel really scary at the time and it certainly did for me it's also empowering because it means we can start to change decisions that we're making and start to create you know a career that's actually a bit more aligned with who we truly are what we you know need and what we want in our lives as well my mission today is also you know I quit Laura as a result of my burnout because I just simply couldn't see a way forward but I really think there is so much scope for people to be able to sort of channel that experience especially if you're not in that sort of full completely devastated burnt out crispy state yet if you can change the trajectory slightly and start to really embed those practices of looking after yourself prioritizing your own health and well-being you can actually track away from burnout and I think seeing it almost as it's not a failure it's a data point you know it's this kind of information that our body is giving us and if we act on it we can have really sustainable and, you know, very successful careers as well.

18:53And I think that's one of the things that's also permeated through this profession is this idea that burnout's just the price you pay. It's absolutely not. And I think increasingly we're going to see that people are able to do a lot of hard work but also create these sustainable, high-performance careers where they are still looking after their own health and wellbeing and really having the sort of end of things there.

19:17Sally Clarke:yeah no well said and completely agree and I think one thing that you do well is you actually blend yoga mindfulness and leadership so what role you know do the body and self-awareness play in having sustainable careers in your opinion it's such an interesting question Rob because I remember very clearly when I went to like therapy or coaching or something very soon after my burnout and they said I was asked something like where do you feel that in your body and I was like in my body, I just felt like it was cut off at the neck. So I was very intellectually driven. I'd always, you know, had some academic accomplishments, been told from a young age, you should be a lawyer, very driven by my intellect and quite stuck there.

19:58So it really took me quite a while to almost build a relationship with my body, if you will, to sort of like start to listen to those signals, to notice when I was holding on or clenching or sort of, you know, riddled with tension. But that's a really important process that we all need to do, because I think the body is really the wisest tool we will ever use, even AI. You know, it's such a brilliant, miraculous system that we are in. And I think where we can start to sort of lean into its wisdom and act on it, that's a really powerful way of ensuring that sort of long, sustainable, successful career.

20:32Yeah.

20:32Sally Clarke:And we only have one body, right? And we have to look after it. And that's the key as well. And it's all too late. You know, health comes secondary to, you know, other things. And ultimately, you can't pour from an empty cup. And I really kind of want to stress and emphasize that, that, you know, now the conversation is changing. Now there are people like yourself out there that can help educate, inform and also, you know, create and recreate environments where things can get better. and you don't have to stick in, you know, a very moped out, very unsatisfied career, deeply unhappy, because it's a knock on effect.

21:04Sally Clarke:You know, if you're not happy at work, you're not happy at home, similar and vice versa. And this is this, this again has to be the real conversation. Okay, I've loved you being so open, authentic and sharing your journey really appreciate that that's only going to help others tuning in and watching this. So if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about how the legal profession works, what would it be and why? You know, I think it probably would be reduced or getting rid of the billable hour and billable hour targets. I think if we treated the legal profession much more as understanding that we're delivering a really important service to our clients and shifted that sort of performance metric to something that's quite different.

21:43And there's even there's firms who don't even they'll have sort of that performance is more at a team level. I think that the billable is really just creates and sort of seeds a really unhealthy culture in the legal profession. Another thing I'd really love to see, if I can add one more, is I'd love to see a lot more support for people who are growing in their legal careers. So, for example, at every step that someone's making in terms of becoming entering into a leadership role, that they're really supported in that. because all too often I think isolation and loneliness goes hand in hand with burnout in the legal profession.

22:17But if we have good leaders, if we start to build, you know, environments of psychological safety where we can talk about what's going on, be real with each other, that is going to really have an impact as well. So I think focusing on it's not just great lawyers that become partners, but great lawyers who are also great leaders.

22:34Sally Clarke:Oh, I love that. And one thing I talk a heck of a lot about on the show is collaboration. I think collaboration is domination. I want to talk about sort of we talk a lot about men's ship as well, but I want to talk about allies now because I don't think this is talked about a lot. Like if you spot, you know, or how do you spot maybe if a colleague might be going through through burnout and how maybe do you approach that conversation? So you come as a point of support rather than potentially as someone as, you know, accusing or them taking it the wrong way. What advice would you give to that so we can be better allies to one another in the industry?