Mark Evans of The Law Society of England and Wales on Justice, Legaltech & Wellbeing - S10E01

0:00There's a role for that human element. A lot of people come into the profession, but they're not all wanting to go into certain areas of law. And the big thing for me is if you look at statistics, 30 percent now of solicitors work in house. And that figure is going to be increasing year on year. How are we going to have that service in the high street or in the community? Some may argue to me, well, isn't technology the answer or isn't AI the answer? Well, I don't think it is solely the answer. a lawyer is, meeting and having that personal relationship with your client that the computer just cannot replicate.

0:33Justice is there for everyone and will continue to fight for a better system. Welcome to the Legally Speaking Podcast season 10. I'm your host Rob Hanna and on this exciting new season we have an incredible lineup of guests who can't wait to share their wisdom, insights and experiences with you to inspire legal minds and transform legal futures. On today's Legally Speaking podcast. I'm delighted to be joined by Mark Evans. Mark is the president of the Law Society of England and Wales. He is the 181st president and has more than 28 years of experience in residential, commercial and agricultural property transactions and succession planning.

1:11Mark's presidential themes include a professional fit for the future, championing our members and supporting solicitor well-being. His mission is to promote the excellence, diversity and innovation of the solicitor's profession, all whilst upholding the rule of law and access to justice. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Mark.

1:31Mark Evans:Hi, Rob. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to finally have you on the Legally Speaking podcast. Very, very excited for today's discussion. But before we get into that, we do have a couple of cheeky icebreaker questions. Firstly, what is your favourite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during a typical workday? Oh, gosh, that's a really good question. So my favorite beverage i do like um i just like water to be honest which is very simple but um water for me is yep absolutely if it was a hot drink i have tea or coffee no preference but water is my is my staple staple drink footwear um if i if i could wear trainers i'd wear trainers but obviously in the job wearing a suit i normally wear just a pair of traditional shoes but trainers would be my choice.

2:19Absolutely and of course a keen runner which we're going to talk about a little bit later on so that also makes a lot of sense but Mark you've had a fantastic journey up to obviously where you are today would you mind telling our listeners just a bit about your background and career journey to kick us off? Yeah so obviously you know it's hard to believe that I'm president of the Law Society of England and Wales never for one inkling did I think growing up as a child that you know one being a solicitor was possible but two actually going into the profession and and leading it and to put this into perspective obviously I'm from a small village in in North Wales state educated no background in law first generation to go to university basically never thought law was for me my dad was a steel worker my mum sort of worked in the local primary school as a volunteer and growing up I wanted to be in the police you know I thought the police force for me was a good way to go in but I wasn't tall enough and so I am quite tall now I'm over six foot something but but as a teenager I wasn't tall enough and when I was in the sixth form my history teacher basically said oh you know mark you're interested in law aren't you and I said Well, yeah.

3:38And so he got me a work placement with a friend of his at a law firm. And that really, that opportunity changed my life because I spent a week in the summer, basically, at a law firm, gaining experience, seeing, you know, real people and real problems. And I just loved it. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to go and do a law degree. And then it just snowballed from there. But it was the opportunity really to get work experience that changed my direction. And actually, bizarrely, once I did get a place to go to university, I then had a bit of a height growth. And then I could have actually joined the police.

4:15But by then, you know, the rest is history. Absolutely. I was just thinking because you and I have obviously met in person and done some collaborations. I was like, Mark's taller than me. So I understand no chance of getting into the police. So that makes sense, the growth spurt. Thanks for sharing a bit of that background and that break you got. You just need that one break, that little bit of experience, that one something, and then it can really change your direction. And from there, you have more than 28 years of experience in residential, commercial, agricultural, property transactions, succession planning, you name it.

4:45What drew you to those areas of law specifically? I mean, in my training contract, I did two years. I did a varied portfolio of family and crime and different areas. But for me, I sort of felt more at ease in private client and property. As a student, I worked in a pub. I liked working behind the bar and meeting people. and this was an area of law I felt very comfortable with. I never felt as comfortable sort of in litigation as such. And also, when I joined the firm I was at, my senior partner at the time basically was winding down and looking for a successor. And so he sort of brought me under his wing and sort of introduced me to his clients.

5:29And actually, I liked them, really enjoyed it and so it was yeah sort of again by chance I'm married into a farming family and that was the area of work you know I was doing as well so yeah it felt really natural and you know I had a really good couple of decades shall we say in that type of work and what was nice is you know you start to act for generations of people you know grandmother and daughter and then grandchildren and it's a really nice area of law to be in. I love that and love the generations beneath and my listeners will know a lot about I talk about this but my late grandfather inspired me who ran his own law firm from the 1950s which is a sort of high street firm that span out across several offices and what most actually inspired me was after he had retired many many years he'd received Christmas cards and letters from clients but also the generations beneath them clients and beneath them just thanking for the work his law firm and he had done and the impact it had on their families and I thought wow what a legacy what a way even post-retirement people want to sort of be connected to you and that really sort of stuck with me.

6:37I mean for me you know I always remember example where I'd acted for a grandmother and then many years later you know the grandson said to me you know you she'd passed away by then and she said oh you knew my gran didn't you and I said yeah yeah he says I remember she had a dog and I could name the dog and you said oh yeah i love that dog you know and it's just that little connection it's you know law is the law but it's those personal connections that you establish with your clients like your grandfather had and you know it's uh it's a really nice part of the job and i think it's remembering it's also a very people and relationships business and you know that human to human connection yeah that's really important and things sometimes can also be a separator for you rather than seeing as a transaction.

7:22Mark Evans:And look, fast forward, Mark, you've been really successful. You're now the current president of the Law Society. And you've set out three, I think, presidential themes. Can you tell our listeners what those themes are? Yeah, and I think the themes have really come from the fact that after I left sort of private practice, I then I'm now a lecturer at the University of Law. So I'm teaching aspiring solicitors on a daily basis. So for me, I've really been focusing on the next generation and how we can support and help those entering into the profession, but also those within it at the same time as well.

8:01So my themes are really generic. Three themes. One is a profession that's fit for the future. So we're looking to basically looking at the challenges that we face, looking at how we can support people and getting more people from diverse backgrounds into the profession as such and retaining them in the profession. And obviously that will encompass technology and AI and all the things that go with it. But really, as a profession, looking to the future with optimism, how can we evolve and how can we survive in it? The second theme for me is really to try and overcome the negativity that is out there in the press and in the media about championing the work that we do as solicitors day in, day out throughout England and Wales, in every town, in every city.

8:50You know, unfortunately, the actions of one really have an adverse effect on us all. But, you know, if you look at the volume of transactions and the amount of good work like your grandfather did in the community and all of that, it's really, really championing that work. And then my final one, which is a real big hot topic for me, is supporting Slyzta wellbeing and having discussions openly about wellbeing and the impact it has on you as an individual. what firms can be doing maybe to help and support and what membership bodies like the Law Society can be doing to have those discussions in an open, transparent way and trying to reduce the stigma that, you know, mental health sometimes has around it.

9:36absolutely we'll talk a little bit more about mental health because it's something i'm very passionate about and you know i've done some events the the great big legal off-site which connected to league has been podcast we've had law care as our charity sponsor and think they're doing fantastic work to try and support um you know lawyers in and around the profession i want to talk about skills for modern practice because you're touching on there and i think i'm correct but according to the law society's annual statistics reports 2023 33 000 solicitors are expected to be admitted to the profession by 2027.

10:06You stated you want to ensure young people are aware of the routes they can take to qualify and are confident that their legal education and training prepares them well for their careers. So how confident are you that the current education and training framework, including the good old SQE, equips aspiring solicitors with the skills they need for modern practice? And where do you see room for improvement? Quite the question. Yeah, quite a question there, Rob. But I think there's this huge scope for improvement. If I set out a wish list, shall we say, ideally, I'd like legal education or law to be taught in primary schools and secondary schools as part of the national curriculum in England and in Wales.

10:47or certainly there to be more conversations to try and encourage more people into it. Obviously, now we've got differing routes into the profession. We've got the traditional degree route that people are going down. Now we've got apprenticeships and the growth in that. And clearly, you know, to qualify as a solicitor, you need the solicitor's qualifying exam. I'm really looking forward to 2026 to really having engagement with the solicitor's regulation authority. it's a five-year review of SQE you know so looking really at what's working what needs to be improved and basically feeding in the information I've had as a lecturer for my students for my constituents and also from other council members really to see now you know having looked at it for five years where are we, where are we going and having that dialogue with the SRA basically and you know so I feel as if I'm in the right place at the right time to express you know my opinions on it you know and you know I've got opinions that I will share.

11:55Are we in the right place? You know clearly I think there is work that needs to be done you know some of the aims with SQE for example haven't being met with regard to social mobility, the funding structure of it and, you know, the lack of data and information some of the times we've now got. But, you know, can we change things? Can we improve things? Yes, I'm sure we can. And certainly that's what I'll be lobbying for. Yeah, and you're doing a great job, it has to be said. And, you know, you're very proactive. I see you as a very proactive president and the things that you've been doing and the plans that you have and really to try and make those improvements.

12:32And touching on there, I want to talk about legal deserts because in the Law Society press release of your appointment as president, you shared, as president, I will raise awareness of legal deserts across England and Wales where solicitor numbers are declining and communities are struggling to access legal advice and justice. So how do you envision the Law Society addressing this issue and what practical steps can be taken to support solicitors in those underserved areas specifically? Yeah, I mean, obviously, a lot of the time the word legal deserts is used in connection with legal aid, where you have a shortage of legal aid providers in certain towns or in certain cities.

13:10But I'm using this in a broader spectrum. You know, the results are showing now that, as is happening in most high streets throughout England and Wales, many institutions are now leaving the high street. You know, if you look at the banks, for example, you know, how many high streets now has a traditional bank in there and other financial institutions? There's a growing age sort of, you know, in the solicitors profession in these areas with no younger people coming in or no succession. So there's going to be a tipping point where eventually in the high streets we're going to start to be losing firms as well.

13:49And, you know, once they've gone, it's unlikely they're ever going to come back. So what we need to be doing is obviously pushing for the value of having that community service, having local accessible legal advice on your doorstep and trying it in any way we can to encourage people to stay within their community. Now, obviously, to do that, there's different ways that we can be lobbying government and search, whether it be for improvements in grants or subsidies or helping with training for cybersecurity or whatever and helping firms stay competitive within their area. but the worry for me is there's a lot of people coming into the profession but they're not all wanting to go into certain areas of law and the big thing for me is if you look at statistics 30 % now of solicitors work in house and that figure is going to be increasing year on year which means that how are we going to have that service in the high street or in the community and some may argue to me well isn't technology the answer or isn't AI the answer well I don't think it is solely the answer to it you know and going back to what we were discussing before about that personal touch about acting for grandfather or you know the daughter and the grandson that's what a lawyer is is meeting and having that personal relationship with your client that the computer just cannot replicate no absolutely and again thank you for being so so thorough and thought out in in your response and it's very clear you know from your your time with being president you know lots of change is going to happen I'm very excited for that and I welcome it I just want to come back to the mental health and well-being points I know it's something that you really are passionate about and a chance maybe just to explain any plans to address mental health or well-being of solicitors that you maybe want to educate them on or things that you're thinking about that probably haven't been thought about before to really try and get on top of this?

15:49Yeah so basically earlier in my presidency we launched Get Involved, a new strategy really to try and get people involved with us on a national level. Not you know normally people associate getting involved with the Law Society nationally as being on a council or on a committee but Get Involved is basically where you can volunteer to have your voice or express your opinion one of the drop downs on the get involved project is well-being so if you have a if you want to express your interest in being involved in discussions or round tables or meetings in 2026 you can register now to to your interest in being involved in the projects that i'm going to be developing um so you know when i've been in leeds or liverpool or Swansea, most people have been saying, well, how do we, you know, what can we do to, we've got ideas and this is what my firm is doing and this is what we're doing here.

16:47And it's collating all this information together. And so, you know, I'm hoping to have meetings here at Chancery Lane where we'll get key stakeholders together to have discussions. I've been for my council dinner in December. I invited Law Care and the Solicitors Charity and the Bar Council, Barbara Mills, to come and speak about well-being as that was our main theme and it's just raising the dial now and just having those conversations and actually saying do you know what we've all maybe had a wobble or we've all had issues as such and it's how we now talk about them and overcome them but also to start to think a little bit out of the box you know the traditional you don't have more than two weeks holiday for example whereas your firm often will cover you if you're off sick you know indefinitely but might say well I'm not keen on you having three weeks off in the summer so it's just having these new conversations so watch out for lots of things that's going to be happening in 2026 for you to get involved basically and and you know share your opinion And I think the key for me, the more diverse people who get involved in this, you know, and have these discussions, the better the benefits will be for us all.

18:04There is going to be a good chance that we're going to come up with a concrete plan before I finish my presidency. And I believe it. And I think that the message I'm getting here is that the door is wide open. The law society is wide open for everyone. Get involved. And, yeah, I just love your approach to all of this. It's all sounding very positive, but with all change and pushing for, you know, developments, there are challenges. And, you know, we've touched on a few already, but what do you think, or one you'd like to reiterate, what is the most significant challenge the legal profession is facing today?

18:37And how do you plan to address it as the current president of the Law Society? I mean, there's lots. I mean, you know, if we start to look at the challenges we face, it is huge, you know. and in my old 30-odd-plus years in the profession, you know, technology has changed, IT has changed. The one big issue that I think that hits more people and is more pressing is the burden of regulation as such. You know, time and time again, yeah, I meet practitioners saying, you know, that anti-money laundering and client checks and, you know, all the administrative tasks that they're now being asked to do.

19:19And, you know, as a property lawyer, you know, when I started, I view it that maybe I had sort of a jigsaw that was a sort of 100 pieces. Well, now it's over a thousand. You know, it's there's so many tasks that you have to do before you can even get into to doing the job itself. So it's looking how we can assist and sort of reduce regulation and look to see how we can sort of improve the day-to-day issues that are facing solicitors at the coalface. And, you know, there are some positive things here. We've got some consultations out at the moment on home buying and selling, for example. You know, we clearly are looking at changes in with the SRA and the Financial Conduct Authority on AML.

20:07so you know whatever your you think is an issue i'm going to go back to that word again get involved and and you know make sure your voice is heard so that you know we we can at least say we've tried to make a difference now clearly it would be for politicians or others to make decisions but we need to give it our best shot what i'm sensing from that is you're you're trying to move and reduce friction you know so business and things can get done and it's not so like you say it's heavily the regulations and slows things down and you know clunkiness so you're trying to make hopefully a far more seamless um experience for all involved which again has has multiple challenges which could be a whole podcast in itself you touched on before aid legal aid so the law society has been vocal about the crisis in civil and criminal legal aid can you tell us what reforms you believe are most urgently needed i mean the most urgent reform is investment in the system which there has been some obviously you know increases recently announced but I think looking to the future practitioners feel that this is maybe just you know a plaster rather than a fix you know and you know when you speak to people they want commitment and hope you know they want your commitment from government basically to say that things will be reviewed on an annual basis rather than you know decades before it's looked at again clearly you know we've seen increases in civil and and and you know housing and immigration and crime but also I'm seeing that many you know students and aspiring sisters are not wanting to go into those areas as well because they don't see the future in it you know and so we're seeing firms shutting down or so we're looking for me about making sure we reinstate access to early legal advice you know so that there is a mechanism for people to to take early legal advice to hopefully not clog up the court system that basically we want certain guarantees for legal aid you know to be there and obviously fair means testing as such to be in, you know, so that justice is there for everyone.

22:28Legal aid, lots going on and we'll continue to fight for a better system.

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23:12Mark Evans:If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Access to justice is where I wanted to go next, actually. And it's something we've been championing here on the show. And why also we're keen to partner with Clio, who sponsor our show, the world's largest legal technology company. They're very passionate about using technology to reduce the access to justice gap for tech for good. So how do you think technology and innovation can help close the justice gap?

23:46Technology has its role. And clearly, you know, from what we're seeing at the moment, you know, obviously we have an AA strategy looking at, you know, innovation and impact and, you know, integrity. You know, and so it's basically making sure that those using technology, there is some rules and guidelines that everyone is following. you know and there's an increasing you know over half of solicitors firms now are using some form of AI as such but also we need to make sure when we're speaking to government you know that there is again a level playing field across the country you know not everyone has the same internet access or digital you know broadband speed and even where I live in in North Wales the mobile phone signal is poor the internet signal is poor so you know there has to be access to you know um if it's there it has to be fully accessible um to everyone i think you know clearly um in my time uh in my career i started with a manual typewriter uh as such and how it's evolved and you know i think I think as lawyers, we do evolve just as we change the law changes, we will apply the advice to it.

25:05And so I think, you know, technology will have its position. What excites me is those who are coming after me, my colleague, you know, my vice president, Brett and Donna, who's deputy vice president. They're really into technology and AI and everything else. So I know, you know, this is going to be an issue that's going to be, you know, going on for a number of years. And I'm confident as a team, you know, we'll be able to lead on this. I completely agree. And yeah, excited to, you know, see breath in action. And Donna's a great friend of mine. And, you know, congratulations to her and all her great access and, you know, her OBE.

25:40And yeah, I think, yeah, her tech approach, I think, is all very exciting. And as you say, as a team, because we is greater than me, you know, real impact can be achieved. You're touching on it there, the sort of digital transformation within the legal sector is currently definitely going through one. What are your thoughts generally for the role of lawyers evolving alongside in AI and legal tech? What are your thoughts on what that future lawyer looks like? I mean, I go back on that. You know, you have to, we have to embrace what's happening. We're in a global legal market, even though we're, you know, citizens here in England and Wales.

26:17Many of clients now obviously deal with cross-border issues and everything else. So clearly, you know, there are areas within your firm or, you know, as an in-house where you can streamline things with the use of technology and data processing and that. But I go back to what I said before, there is still many areas of law that has that human element to it. And so I think it's going to evolve. But, you know, when somebody's, you know, coming to you having suffered with domestic abuse or, you know, certainly personal issues or a bereavement or an accident or, you know, they're looking to seek advice for you, sort of really confidentiality.

27:00I still think there's a role for that human element in it. Now, obviously, you know, the legal aid, I mean, legal advice, you know, streamlining as to where to go using technology as a first port of call is something that has got huge potential. You know, so it's like a filter system to say, you know, you put in what you say and this is where you need to go and this is the advice that you need to take. You know, it's like the hospital, you phone 101 or whatever the figure is, and you get a triage, basically. You get told where you are. I think many people don't realize the legal problems they've got and start off in the wrong direction.

27:46So that's where technology could be really, really useful in doing that initial triage to say, no, you've got employment issues here. you need to see this person or take this sort of advice, moving it forward. Yeah, and we're going to talk about employment law next. And you're right, actually. It's what someone said to me very early on before I set up my own legal recruiting business 10 years ago and got into the legal space from obviously more of the family side. They said people don't hire lawyers to answer their questions. They hire lawyers because they know the right questions to ask in the first place.

28:18I think that's the key point to your point around they don't necessarily know the issues. and that's where the expertise and that years and years of training and understanding that wisdom and that advice really does come true and so let's talk about employment law then because we are seeing rapid shifts in employment law from flexible working to AI related rights which developments do you think will be the most transformative for solicitors? I mean as in the employment field there's been some huge sort of you know changes and announcements obviously the government's decision now to give unfair dismissal rights at six months of employment obviously marks a significant shift from where it originally committed you know we have concerns still about you know day one rights in employment and obviously that could overwhelm potentially employment you know sort of tribunals obviously there's all the issues regarding protecting workers rights, giving certainty to business and individuals.

29:21And also, you know, I'm sure you're aware of, you know, the backlogs in employment tribunals continue to spiral. They're concerning. And obviously, as employment law and changes are going through Parliament, obviously, we must ensure that the whole system is properly funding and resourced, because otherwise, it's not going to, you know the changes aren't going to sort of have any true effect so as I say there's a lot going on at this moment in time. There is and you're right if nothing changes nothing changes ultimately and you know it's a really key point that you make. I want to switch lanes now so I want to talk about something you and I share a passion over which is running because you have launched the Legal Runner community and I'm a big fan of community as well and I think it's amazing what you're doing but for folks that might be new to this can you explain what Legal Runner is and what motivated you to create it and do you have any merch with you today?

30:17I do have some merch which I will show you uh afterwards yeah um so so basically um the background to it was my father had been in a care home with dementia and basically he'd been there for about five six years and I was visiting him and his health was deteriorating and I felt physically and mentally drained and so at the end of 2019 2020 I decided to do something about it and I decided to take up running I couldn't run 10 minutes on a treadmill and so I actually signed up to do a Chester triple in 2020 which was a 10k March, a half marathon in May and a full marathon in October 2020 and I thought if I sign up and I run for Alzheimer's Society I'm committed I've got 10 months to train to do it and I did it.

31:15Covid happened so I had to do the virtual London Marathon and I had to do the virtual half marathon but I lost two and a half stone I felt incredibly great from starting running and all of that was on my own because it was with COVID training on my own in isolation and then I got involved with my local park run and basically did you know volunteered there and what I began to realize is that I started to talk to people when I was running and you know completely strangers I would open up and talk about my father and dementia and baby loss and all these issues that I've never talked about really and then I realized that wouldn't it be great if I formed a running group for the legal community where people understand you and the work that you do without having to explain it because if you're running for somebody on a 5k let's say half an hour having to explain what a lawyer is or what a lawyer does or having the conversation we've had now just wouldn't happen so to create a running group for the legal community and I mean everyone in the legal community solicitors barristers staff support staff you name it Silex where we can just meet up and run and it's just flourished that we've gone from nothing I've got a website I've got twelve hundred and fifty members on LinkedIn I've got forty five regional contacts it's now gone international I've got people in Australia and in Canada and in Mexico as such and you know there and and every shirt that you buy goes all the donation goes to law care the mental health charity for the legal profession so so I got in touch with law care and I said I've got this idea what do you think you want to be involved and so designed the shirts they they've got their sleeves now so I'll show you what we've got.

33:13I've got three colours. We've got the red, which obviously for me, me matching with you there, Rob. Absolutely, that's a bit of our colours, red. There we go. We've got a blue if you're interested in the blue. Or we have our final colour here is a green shirt as well. Now, ultimately, my aim is for the other colours of the rainbow as such to come in maybe in 2026, 2027. to match the pride flag, basically, so that when we all get together as a group, as such, we can show our unity and support for other communities as well. But yeah, it's just really great. And the fact is, and I know you find the benefits of running, it's such a good stress reliever.