Patrick McCann: Authentic Leadership, Social Mobility & Building the Law Firm of the Future - S10E27

19:57Patrick McCann:No, again, thank you for being so thorough. And I loved your London bus analogy. I think it couldn't be more spot on. And yes, you mentioned Lewis Silken. I would highlight people go and look at Rock Grawowski's recent episode. We've had him who made partner following his career journey at Reed Smith and with Linklaters and also on Osborne Clark. Go and check out Leanne Wright, who's a wonderful private equity partner, who has come onto the show as well. Two wonderful firms and rightly so highlighted. I want to now talk about something positive, the apprenticeship revolution. And we've also had Holly Moore, who was the first to get awarded a solicitor apprenticeship at ITV, come on the show and share her journey.

20:30Patrick McCann:But this route is really gaining momentum. So what impact do you think the apprenticeships are having on the profession from a positive perspective? And why should firms be embracing this pathway to qualification more?

20:41Andrew Keightley:I'm really pleased that you mentioned Holly. She is one of the people that particularly inspired the work that we do. I call out Amy Maron, formerly of BPP and also Mayor Crockford, DAC Beechcroft, as the first three people I can think that really role-modelled exceptional talent. And then of course, Joanna Hughes, with Joe Gubbie and I, the three of us, co-CEO City Century. So just one minute on City Century. So we've worked with over 50 firms, most of them in London, to bring in predominantly low SEB kids and fund them through the university and solicitor qualification route. They work for days, they study one day a week.

21:21Andrew Keightley:Six years later, they qualify as solicitors with an LLB, quite possibly a master's and the SQE as well.

21:27Patrick McCann:And we

21:28Andrew Keightley:are finding that we recruit somewhere between 130 or more than 130 every year now. We're working just over 40 firms at the moment and what we are bringing in is um i call them the mozarts of their schools we are bringing in the most talented kids um who are just exceptional it's just it just happens sometimes that incredible people exist uh george hannah at lewis silken is is but one um of the ones i would i would call that there are just some people who are special and what we are finding with that talent that comes in um first of all um they are it's more difficult to get a city century solicitor apprenticeship than it is to get a law place at Oxford and Cambridge.

22:08Andrew Keightley:They have to be so talented to get the job that you have that talent coming in. Then law firms can then find that they can mould those people, really work with them, make sure they rotate around. They become a really incredible resource. They are driven, they are grateful, they are pushy in the best sense, they are no respecters of hierarchy and they just want to get the thing done. They want to work, they're in and they want to work. And those communities are speaking to their younger brothers and sisters and more from those communities are coming in. Our application numbers are coming in. Our standards are coming up as well.

22:43I think they are seismic.

22:46Andrew Keightley:I think they are rewriting the junior lawyer contribution completely. And, for example, we're finding with the hijabi community, we've got a really strong word of mouth out. And you should see one hijabi woman helping another hijabi woman access this. And you're like, wow, that that is sponsorship. That is helping people up. That's allyship. And it's incredibly strong. And my my hope is that in a few years, those incoming numbers would be around 50 through traditional university, 50 through sister apprenticeship university. Here's the thing I put to you. If it is that the knowing of the law or the doing of the law, or that thing becomes slightly less important because AI can do some of that for you, then you might need another skill set in addition or instead of.

23:32Andrew Keightley:And I think that's where you want driven, connected, networked, passionate, clever, ambitious people. And I think the Solicitors Apprenticeships can bring a lot of that to you.

23:42Patrick McCann:And you're preaching to the choir here. We absolutely agree. And I think it's wonderful. And there's so many positives. And it's great that you mentioned George Hanna as well. He's also been on the show following your very kind introduction, actually, where we were all collaborating at an event at the Law Society last year. And Mayor Cropford, indeed, has been on the show. So, folks, go and check out those episodes from those inspiring individuals. So, let's stick with the talent pipeline. I've got others for you as well.

24:02Andrew Keightley:Oh, fantastic.

24:03Patrick McCann:Yeah, we want all of the hidden gems. Many firms still have concerns about attracting and retaining the next generation of legal talent. So, what do the younger and aspiring lawyers actually want from the employers today that perhaps the previous generations did not prioritise or were too scared to speak up about?

24:19Andrew Keightley:Well, we were definitely too scared to speak up about it. I think what we're hearing is sort of values, connection, purpose, sense of growth and the ability to have some sort of other interests, some sort of life alongside your work. I think that might change if some of the employers start reducing their pipeline numbers and the competition becomes harder because there are fewer jobs. Now, I'm really pleased to hear Paul Thwait at Stevenson Harwood and Julian Taylor at Simmons and Simmons saying, no, they're not reducing their talent pipeline numbers. I really hope that that continues. You know, we we have a duty to bring in talent, et cetera.

25:02Andrew Keightley:You can't just not have talent at the beginning and then suddenly have it at senior level. But I think that might change in terms of what people are saying that they want. But I think what I am hearing is that the ability to be able to challenge or change, having a flatter structure that allows you opportunity or at least a voice a little bit earlier. I would say it used to be back in my day that you would be prepared to forego things in order to get jammed tomorrow. So you'd say, I don't need to have a life. I work hard. Someone can be psychologically abusive to me or whatever, because I know that by the time I'm 30, 35, I will make a partner.

25:42Andrew Keightley:That jam thing has moved. It's later. There's possibly less of it. And it is less clear that you're going to make it. So I think what we're hearing from the younger generations at the moment is we want to see some of that stuff now. We're not really prepared to do the deal on the basis of deferred reward. So I think that's going to be a thing. My sense is what the younger people, the juniors are going to be saying now is I need you to, while I'm with you, which probably won't be that long, two, three years, you need to make me really, really portable in the market. you need to increase my skill set so that I can go to other places.

26:21Andrew Keightley:We need to be really open. I'm honest about that. I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to be a partner with you, but I will work really hard for those two or three years. I think they're going to be saying, I need to have some time in my week, in my month, in my year to dedicate to whatever I want to dedicate it to. I do want to be part of the conversation. and it is really important to me that I retain my health in the widest sense, which I completely agree with. From someone who opted out of being a lawyer, partly to have a less demanding life in order to retain my health, I definitely lost that in the last five years of my working career, my full-time career.

27:05Andrew Keightley:And I would urge everyone to really constantly, you've only got one life, you've only got one body as far as I'm aware. And it's really important that you look after that and part of the body is of course the mind. So that's what I think. And then I think choice. People just want a little bit more choice about what they do, where they do it, who they do it for, on what terms.

27:22Patrick McCann:I liken things to, imagine you've only got one car for the rest of your life. You know, you're going to get it serviced. You're going to make sure it's MOT'd. You're going to make sure that you're looking after it so you get longevity out of it, you get performance out of it. That is exactly how we should be treating ourselves. and thank you for sharing so many points as well. And I'd encourage folks to check the episode with Henry Nelson Case. He's a wonderful advocate as well for, you know, mental health and wellbeing and good things within the profession who also came from law and now giving back so much.

27:49Patrick McCann:We've joked throughout the conversation about Mr. Peake, William Peake, who's also been on the show, but I want to talk about leadership because again, you and I were both at an event recently at the professional training and he was on stage and I really liked what he was saying about leadership. He said, leadership isn't really about what you say, it's about how you act. And so if you're in a meeting and you've said certain things, you need to call that out. You need to be visibly seen to call things out, not just say things, because that's when you will lose and dilute trust. And he also said a great comment in terms of when he was interviewing people or people were interviewing him.

28:17Patrick McCann:One of the best questions he was ever asked was, when was the time that you had lost trust in your employer and what did they do to win it back? And he thought that was a great question to ask. That's a great example of leadership and his EQ and his intelligence and how he's leading a law firm and how he cares for people. so for you you've worked closely with many law firm leaders throughout your career appreciate you would have seen a high range but what separates truly effective leaders from those who simply hold

28:41Andrew Keightley:leadership positions yeah and just before i move into that and i mean no offense to anyone i still think you can be really successful financially without necessarily being brilliant i would say this is a this is an industry that is at least the commercial bit that is naturally profitable i usually talk about diamond miners you go down the mine and what you bring out has value in the market and you can sell it but do not confuse that the value of what you produce with your own innate brilliance so um there are a number of people probably me included who are fine and we are successful because the thing is successful rather than because we're naturally brilliant but but i can i can think of i think think of five before i get to william peak that i regard as being um really special leaders um and different reasons for each of them so i'm of Herbert Smith Freehills.

29:33Andrew Keightley:What he does is he creates excitement. He essentially puts on a show and he makes you feel like you are part of that show. He's a bit like the character, oh, what's the I Am Me, the circus thing, not Barnum, but you know what I mean, with Hugh Jackman. He's that person. He brings people together.

29:52Patrick McCann:The greatest showman type thing. He is the greatest showman, right?

29:55Andrew Keightley:In law, I don't know there's anyone that can come anywhere close to him for that. and you know now they've pulled off this amazing transatlantic merger which loads of firms have been trying to do and he does it right because that's just him so so it's that excitement and I worked there for six years very very happily and you know he was part of the reason then I will call out Gideon Moore who was a former managing partner at Linklaters and we overlapped by about three or four years and what I loved about Gideon and we didn't always see eye to eye but he listened and he might not go the way that you wanted him to, but he would at least listen.

30:30Andrew Keightley:He would ask, he would ask you your opinion. Like, oh my God, someone's asking me my opinion. Amazing. So just making you feel like you've been listened to was important. Neville Heisenberg at BLP, he was managing partner there for probably 20 years. He was steely. He would say, he would explain it to you, he would say, this is the way we're going and this is why. and then he would say, he saw him say this at the partners conference and he said, and you either get on the bus or you don't, but do not stand in front of the bus because the bus is going. So either you're on or you're off. Do not stand in front of you because the bus is going to go over you and it was very, it sounds a bit maniacal and a bit violent but I don't think that's what he meant but he was like, this is where we're going, you're either in or you're out and that was really clear and true and some people stepped off, some people came on and worked really well.

31:18Andrew Keightley:I will call out Joe Farmer with him, I'm slightly obsessed at Lewis Silken who her leadership quality is to be really really honest and her journey is really long like where she's come from and where she's gone to and she is very reassuring she goes I just I'm just thinking about the next thing I got two more Yutunde Dania office managing partner Birmingham Charles and Hamlin she has an ability to connect with people I have very rarely seen she tells her story she looks at you she spends time with you in that moment you feel like you are the most special person in the world that anything can happen I would swim oceans to work with you today I have to say and then someone who I really love as a friend we're not necessarily that close we don't see each other that often we didn't really work that close together is Sam Brown and Sam Brown is a really kind but firm leader Herbert Smith Three Hills former UK managing partner and she was very open about when she had um of her mental health um experiences and so i call her and then of course we have to go to william peak don't we because we have to yeah you can't have a podcast without william and he does two things i think he definitely does the honesty bit and calling people to camp but he has star power there is something about the way he looks about how he presents about the words he used about his communication about the rooms in which he inserts himself that just go oh that's a star right if you were casting for a show where you needed the best most engaging managing partner you would cast william he has stopped i don't and i think it's a combination of those things that what he does um uh so those are that's my composite cracking

33:03Patrick McCann:examples thank you and i'm sure everyone will be rushing to linkedin and trying to connect individuals and of course i think with william obviously his stand-up career stand-up comedy may have helped him a little bit as well but just sort of summarizing there what i take from that and things that we like to talk a lot about on the show firstly kindness matters in leadership being present having that presence and genuinely caring being seen heard and valued and also not being afraid to be clear and be you know it's better to be clear than it is to be clever sometimes like you say if you're clear with people you give themselves the choice to whether you want to be on the bus or not on the bus and explain why you're doing it and we're no longer in this sort of b2b b2c world and to the point about connection we're in this h2h it's human human connection people are craving and people who understand that connect with people will be seriously strong leaders and being refreshingly open and honest with people and giving them that reassurance and also the excitement why to come to work so absolutely love that masterclass i'm going to go rewind it and listen to it again and i'd encourage all our listeners to as well because it's important because these are leaders that are shaping the future of the profession can i just

34:03Andrew Keightley:before you go to the next bit i'm really impressed with how you're running this podcast right you're really properly listening and you're summarizing and then you're adding to it i'm really um listening is not one of my skill sets and I'm really impressed really really

34:17Patrick McCann:thank you I'm thoroughly engaged and engrossed and it's taken us a long time to make this work and we wanted to promise to give a good interview and I'm genuinely honored to have you on the show and enjoying the conversation there's more for us to get through so let's stick at it let's go to diversity inclusion and it's something that we're all very passionate about and you've been a very strong advocate for inclusion and worked on various projects supporting lots of underrepresented groups within the profession what progress have you seen start on the good stuff and where do you think we still need to do a lot more

34:46Andrew Keightley:work right so i think we we're close to more or less ish having cracked or at least started to crack um social mobility recruitment um as long as we keep going and do more of it um there are more visibly queer people um in the industry so that's good and we do to some degree um see women progressing, but the model itself fundamentally has to change in order to really see progression, including from people who might have other commitments in their life or other challenges. The model currently, at least in the city, is 80 hours a week, six, seven days, 50 weeks a year, do that for 40 years, finish.

35:28Andrew Keightley:That model does not accommodate the realities of of people's physiology, people's anatomy, people's psychology. It doesn't. So not much will change if that doesn't change. What does need to change apart from the model, we have to give much more support to allowing non-white, non-heterosexual, non-public school people to build networks that create work. We have to properly do that. And we have to come away from the rugby and the cricket and the opera and the oh didn't we go to same school thing. Shout out to Sophie Pender at 93 % Club who is doing lots to bring people in to professional industries including law and then just because it's become really apparent to me since I was diagnosed a couple of years ago, there's a lot that I think we need to know more about and thank God for JJ Thompson for Richard Fisk and to James Snyder at Freshfields for their work with the Legal Diversity Network.

36:34Andrew Keightley:We need to do a lot more. Let's be honest, the legal sector is full of neurodiverse people, right? Across all elements of the spectrum, right? And the profitability of commercial has depended on those people, but it absolutely does, right? Hey, you can work 220 hours a week. Great, lovely, fabulous. Lock your room. His data room, go for it. there's more to harness but also to protect people in that field and then I think there's a there's a piece for me around how we, it sounds so selfish it sounds like it's just about me, there's a piece around how we allow people to exit the industry and whether we're getting that legacy piece right, whether we're allowing people to leave their mark on the sector as they wish, whether their knowledge is being passed down, whether their values are being shared with others etc um and and sorry the last thing um we just need to be less critical and less he says criticizing everything and less cynical if there's one mindset i would like us to change it's the bit where we bitch about everybody and we think we're better than everybody else that that would transform

37:44Patrick McCann:things today's episode is brought to you by cleo if you're spending more time managing your practice than practicing law it's time for a change cleo is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think. Clio's dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way, so you can focus on what matters most, your clients. Plus, award-winning support 24-5 via live chat, phone, and email means help is always on hand when you need it visit clio.com forward slash uk to find out why thousands of uk solicitors trust clio now back to the show context and empathy is really important and the legacy thing is is really what gets us out of bed and myself out of the bed you know my late grandfather ran a successful law firm in his own right you know man and boy came from a very working class family background always used to say to me laddie live live respected die regretted and it's something that I really, really resonate with.

38:51Patrick McCann:And I think to your point around some of the other issues you're mentioning there, I think COVID really changed the landscape. We went through a pandemic. Not many generations before us had experienced that. I think that really made people think about what they want from their lives more so than ever, if you think we've gone through that. And then bolt on now, which we've touched on, which we haven't really leveraged completely, is AI. This isn't once in a generation piece of technology. We've had Dragon's Den investors like Piers Linney, former lawyers come on the show he said rob this is once in a species revolution of the velocity of what this could be and you think of the anxiety and the impact and things that might happen and so you know we have to have empathy i think is so important and moving forward and sticking with leadership we touched on it but i want to come to go to sort of the the wider work that you've been doing in your thoughts because you've spoken very openly about the importance of visible leadership and representation so why does representation at senior levels matter and And what advice would you give to aspiring leaders from underrepresented backgrounds?

39:53Andrew Keightley:Just coming back on COVID and AI, we all need shitloads of therapy, don't we?

39:59Patrick McCann:And so actually, you know, that is a good thing. You know, let's be positive about it.

40:04Andrew Keightley:None of us have processed it. I think there's a tsunami of trouble coming our way. Anyway, let's leave that aside. And it's really difficult to talk about why legal representation is important without doing a bunch of cliches. But essentially, here's what I think. I think it gives hope because if they see someone, I was just talking to a senior partner from a law firm and he said to me, the fact that you have this role, Patrick, as a, I think we just, I think I might have used the phrase annoyingly visible queer. the fact that you and our industry have this role in itself is of worth so that's that's quite interesting isn't it and that is another reason why I took the role because I thought it's really important that younger queer people can see an older queer person essentially doing well so there's the hope thing I think it also just challenges the system seeing a black person over here an Asian person over here a person with disabilities over here a social mobility socially mobile person etc etc having James Smyther talk about you know autism and what have you that challenges the system because we're here we exist so I think that's important let me tell you this story um so I started doing my nails um I don't uh three or four years ago um and I was at linklaters doing something and there was a reception thing and there was a um there was a bunch of um get to know you day for like maybe first year students and one of them came up to me um you know split from the group came up to me and said to me I like your nails I said thanks uh and he said, that makes me think that I can be welcome here.

41:39Andrew Keightley:I just, I only came, I just thought I wouldn't be. I'm a black gay man from Manchester. I just thought I could, and I was like, oh my God, are you kidding? Come to LinkedIn, it's full of it. Loads of us come over here, right? It's central. But, you know, being able to do that is, I think, important, and it creates that connection. I have had so many conversations with people that wouldn't otherwise know me because of the way I'm role modeled and when I see senior people role model the response that they get let me tell you this example Paulette Mastin Reed Smith sorry Paulette Mastin CBE did a speech city century event that we did at the O2 there were about 1400 kids there she was the last speech she did a brilliant keynote speech she was about to go home I'll go back to work and I said no no you sit here and I said sit on the sofa on stage and I said watch this and I said if anybody wants to have their picture taken this is a bunch of year 12s year 13s if anybody wants to have their picture taken with Paulette please form a cue an hour later she was still getting her picture taken and and what I saw is for those kids they were like it could be me but almost more importantly what I saw as Paulette realising that she had made it, right?

42:58Andrew Keightley:That this is something that she had made. She was that person. She was that success story. And she was sort of owning it herself, which I don't think she had done until that point. And that's the sort of stuff that if you're a visible role model, I think makes a real difference. I get a bit emotional about stuff like that, but I have seen... No, but it's the passion.

43:17Patrick McCann:The passion I can hear in your voice coming through. And I think the one thing I respect is, you know we always talk about aba on the show always be authentic and to your point about you know to to believe it you have to see it and seeing these people in these um you know respective roles to the point that you said the fact that you were in the role i think is fantastic and you know i'd like to shout out trevor sterling and the work that he's doing with the be the ladder awards um you know he's very much you know if you can't see the ladder be the ladder drop it down help others climb up and i think these are the types of voices and conversations we want to be having on the show absolutely let's talk about the future of legal education now and slightly controversial because the introduction of the sqe has fundamentally changed the route to qualification how do you think legal education and training will continue to evolve over the

44:00Andrew Keightley:coming years i think number one um i'm really pleased to see um the change of leadership at the solicitor's regulatory authority sarah rapson um aileen armstrong but also beth black who's been brought in to look at the SQE and so I think we now have a regulator that actually is listening and wants to work with us I'm seeing great stuff come out of law firms out of SQEers and from the law schools about you know these are the areas that we should improve in relation to the SQE in order to make it work I don't think it's ever going to be an exam that guarantees success in the workplace I don't think there is any exam that does that and I was not a fan not sure I am a fan but it has allowed different people to come in.

44:41Andrew Keightley:So my Swiss Quiffer is 152 of those now underway, 52 have qualified who have come through paralegal routes that wouldn't otherwise have qualified the Solicitor Apprenticeship route would not have existed. Three or 400 coming through that in a couple of years, it will be two or three years, that'll be a thousand people that have come through that route through city century firms. So that opens the whole thing out. And I think we will get better at knowing what we need to do to pass the SQE, which I think means that pass rates for those who access suitable support in terms of course etc will go up um so it will become a thing that people will pass up i've always said i want the sqe to be hard but not harrowing and if we can get that right that's a thing so so i think that that will change for the better um and and some of the things that were problem i think you know we have already to some degree sorted but in relation to legal education training more um more likely i think we will get more people coming in through non-traditional routes successfully so I think we will hopefully get more career changes I think there will be a return to some mandatory completion I think in the age of hybrid and online and do it as you wish and we're not really following you and you don't have to sign a register I think that will change I think that will become a risk issue and a performance standard issue for a bunch of employers so I think we will have people coming back to some sort of mandatory you have to do it in order that you know you have and I would hope that that might include some light testing as well so it's not just I've been there but some testing um I think ethics will come that's going to be on there I don't think the answer is you need to have done a course when you're in NQ I think there will be something more involved which will involve reflection it will involve some sort of frequency um and it will involve some sort of reporting structure back into the regulator or at least your employer and then um I think with AI we We definitely need to learn how to use it.

46:33Andrew Keightley:We need to teach upwards to the more seniors how to do it. And then we need to somehow learn the stuff that we used to learn when we were doing the work that AI does. I don't know what the answer to that is. Whoever does that will become a very, very rich person. And then I think there will be a piece about how you work with people in a way that works across generations, including juniors upwards and seniors downwards. There's a there's a real communication disconnect, I think, happening more and more. And we know when people don't understand and don't connect to each other, things go wrong. And I think will become a thing, I think, for a number of lawyers.

47:08Patrick McCann:A massive thing. And I think, you know, I'd like to shout out Wendy Jepsen at Let's Think because I think they're doing a great job of trying to capture that cognitive learning and that sort of great wisdom and expertise, particularly in the AI world, to re-engineer and re-teach and learn people coming through the profession because it's absolutely needed. And I love that you talk to Ethics. We've had I, Stephanie Boyce, a good friend of mine, come on the show multiple times and it's something she talks up. about in great detail and is a great voice to be following, particularly on that topic.

47:34Patrick McCann:And more broadly, I think also, you know, organizations like NRG Lawyers, where I sit on the charity of Akil Hunt and work there doing, actually challenging law firms in terms of, you know, it shouldn't just be recruited in this dynamic. Actually, we are losing so much great talent and we should be opening the doors and holding these law firms accountable. So absolutely agree. And I love that you highlighted the SRA as well because, you know, we is greater than me, isn't it? The more we can collaborate, work together and actually drive in the same direction and feel people are listening to us to achieve greater things, far far better okay let's get into ai we've kind of skirted around it touched on it a little bit but i want to get your thoughts and i know you very openly said you sort of you know it came in a little bit late at the late later part of your career but you're absolutely at the coalface in terms of helping shape people's future careers so continuing to dominate the conversation how do you see ai changing the way lawyers will work learn and develop their careers yeah one reason i was

48:24Andrew Keightley:pleased to leave link laters was that i didn't have to be in charge of the ai training program I just thought that's just do a bigger thing, right? I will retire. I will watch Antiques Roadshow.

48:34Patrick McCann:Other shows are available.

48:35Andrew Keightley:Rather than having to take on that piece of work. So no one knows, right? But we have to master how to use the product and then how to do the stuff that the product can't do and market that intelligently. We seem to be saying that's all about judgment and that's all about empathy and that's connection. Whisper it. I think AI can already do that better than most humans. And we are fooling ourselves if we think we're going to pay£2 ,000 an hour because we can have a whole load of data and say, I think we should go this way. I think AI can do a lot of that. I think we have to move much more into business and operations and strategy away from legal.

49:15Andrew Keightley:I think it won't be long before we have lawyers who don't actually do law, I think. And we have to learn how to learn the stuff that we're not learning because we're not we're not learning it through doing informal working and then the big thing for me is we have to it feels like you're on a um on a slightly dodgy surfboard in a really choppy ocean and it's just coming everywhere and there's hell and there's and there's tidal wave and then it goes really quiet and then there's a whole thing going over here coping with that massive uncertainty coping with that um i think it's the biggest thing just the constant constant change let me tell you this story just in terms of speed and stuff when i was a junior um you could you'd ring up the junior on the other side and you would agree that you would send your letters to each other by second class post which would take an extra day so you'd get the letter on the monday you'd send your reply on the tuesday they would get it on the thursday they they would reply on the friday it would take two or three days it would come to you on tuesday so you have a week right between letters um so um there is a whole different way of working with it And so that was stressful, but calmish.

50:22Andrew Keightley:Coping with all of that, I think, is a big thing.

50:25Patrick McCann:A massive thing. And I think to the point about you mentioned about the£2 ,000 and, you know, I think law firms have to be really conscious of that as well. And I think one of my favourite quotes I've heard is very simply by obviously Richard Susskind. He says, the market will show no loyalty. I think that's so true, you know, in terms of the AI revolution, the tech revolution that we're going through. So, you know, you'd be fooled to think that clients are still going to be prepared to pay that, given, like you said, we say it softly, that some of the things that, you know, empathy and those various things that have been quoted AI can't do, it's only going to get exponentially better.

50:54Patrick McCann:One of the interesting shows that we've done recently, which was really well regarded, and it leads nicely onto human skills, what I want to talk about next, was David Pope, who was a voice coach for lawyers specifically. So as the tech is advancing, Patrick, what human skills do you think will become even more essential in a lawyer's toolkit? You know, are there particular skills or competencies future lawyers should be looking into to develop further?

51:17Andrew Keightley:Yeah, there's definitely a bit about how do you relate to people in a way that works for them. And I think that includes, you know, telling and sharing stories and listening and adapting. that ability to connect on a human level I think will still be important I don't know if that what the value of that will be compared to I can get it for free or for cheaper from from AI but I can think of someone like Charlie Moore who's a solicitor apprentice at DWF and she writes quite openly what she's 23 22 23 she writes quite openly about her life and who she is and what matters and she writes in a way that sort of goes there's got to be a better way and this is what we should be doing.

52:00Andrew Keightley:And I think I find that quite intoxicating. Adaptability, as I've mentioned, calmness, the ability to just stay steady while everyone around you is losing their heads. And then here's, I think, my big thing. The ability to emulate what a composite of successful people are doing, pulling this bit from here, this bit from here, this bit from here, and somehow emulating that. We all can point to 10 great people for different reasons. And it's them trying to pull those pieces together. I think that ability to sort of bring yourself up, I think, is a big piece for me. And then just the office basics as well, which I think we've lost.

52:46Andrew Keightley:You know, the timekeeping, the updating of your boss, the ability to answer the phone, the ability to tell your boss where you've got to, all of that stuff. I think we've rushed a bit too quickly to go and other computers can do it. And so I think that's a really big piece, just working out what is important for the other people with whom you work and how you can begin to deliver that.

53:07Patrick McCann:Yeah, and it comes to communication, doesn't it? Being disciplined. And I love that you're talking about picking from different pieces. I talk very openly about people should have a 360 board of mentors around them, people that are ahead of them, people beneath them, to the side of them, wherever it may be in using all of those skills. Yeah, absolutely. I always talk about the health squad around you.

53:23Andrew Keightley:It's incredibly important.

53:25Patrick McCann:Very, very important, yeah. And definitely storytelling. We all know facts tell, but it's the stories that are going to sell and really connect people and bring people in along that journey. Okay, so now, Patrick, you're building the law firm of the future. Switched roles. So if you were designing a law firm from scratch, 2026, what would it look like? What would you keep from the traditional law firm models, if anything? And what would you change?

53:44Andrew Keightley:I'm really pleased that I'm at this stage of my career, so I don't have to do that, if for real. Yeah, you can shoot your shot whichever way you want to go. I'm going to try and just do this short. I think if you get the law firm right, you should be uncomfortable within it. By which I mean you should have surrounded yourself with a structure and a network and a way of working and a team that are not like you, that don't think exactly the way you do and who annoy you sometimes and who get things wrong and also get things right. And you might get things wrong. I think you've got to be really uncomfortable in your law firm because that's where change and improvement comes from.

54:25Andrew Keightley:And so, you know, I'm always saying if you're recruiting, try and recruit someone who sort of vaguely irritates you a bit. You don't know what it is about them. There's something that isn't you're not used to. Yeah, there's an unfamiliarity in terms of stuff that I think we've got to keep. So I would definitely call out. I really want us to keep up that upstanding bit. You know, law is about something. I'm not saying we all have to turn into Atticus Finch to kill a mockingbird. But there has to be something like that, doesn't there? You know, like lawyers in drama shows, some of them are really decent.

54:58Andrew Keightley:So I want to keep that. I want to keep the discipline that we have, the diligence that we have. I want us to still be able to think forward a little bit. I think the staple work that we do, some of that's got to stay. Right. We still advise. We still represent. We still advocate. And we've got to keep our intelligence. We've got to keep as clever as we are. That's what that's what we are. We're brains. Right. We're walking brains. that's got to be kept the stuff i think we'd like to lose um is rigidity um i've mentioned circumspection cynicism um overworking i think we've just got to we've just got to lose that it's just not we we need not to be working people later hours a week um uh yeah hierarchy and um um cliques but by cliques i mean cliques that you can access because you have had access to money in order to get the experiences and the connections that allow you to be with those people I want to get rid of all of that so um you know I did do Latin at school as it turns out because I was a good comprehensive but um you know using Latin phrases or classical music or talking about where you where do you ski or you know which is your favorite part of Tuscany that sort of stuff I think doesn't help those

56:12Patrick McCann:sorts of keys i don't really like yeah and again to the point around um burning people out and working those hours you know if we're working through these revolutionary technology changes and getting these efficiencies let's pass them on to our people so they don't miss that wedding maybe they don't miss bedtime five weeks out of the seven you know five days out of the seven of the week they can be there more than just the weekends and actually people get the life with the career and get the right balance and absolutely on the comfort zone piece you know comfort zone's great but we all know nothing actually grows there could not agree more and ultimately you know this is a really important topic around us continuously being open to learning and being curious and sharpening our axes because that is what clients are ultimately going to be paying for so absolutely thoroughly agree really enjoyed that okay i want to talk about collaboration now say it all the time my listeners be sick and tired of me saying it but collaboration is domination i try and do as many facets as possible across the show in the community that i'm building i think it's so so powerful one of your strengths patrick bringing firms together to solve shared challenges so why is collaboration becoming increasingly important in the profession traditionally known more for

57:16Andrew Keightley:competition yeah thanks um i think this is coming sorry just to get psychological a bit not sure i was that popular a kid um and i to in order to make that kid's life a bit better i seem to have got myself into lots of group situations um uh so i have for whatever reason i i've done a lot of collaboration so I can think of Swissquiff, Diverse City which I set up, Queer City Law Career, CLS Training Committee which I chaired for five years and sat on for 15, City Century, you know now I'm at the CLS as well and so I'm about collaboration is so much more fun than than competition. I'm not a particularly aggressive type person I like to think I don't really want to beat the other side I want to beat the system and I want to beat the odds but I'm not really into making it worse and when everything that I found when I've done that is people really respond really well to that you do have to have one or two people at the middle who have the vision and do all the work let's be honest I've never found spreading the work equally actually works as there was someone that's not doing it but I think that's the key for the greater good to making stuff forward and I like to think that people do actually want to work together I I don't know whether that's what our politicians at the moment here and around the world and particularly across the Atlantic are about.

58:37Andrew Keightley:I very much hope that that all goes away come the next set of elections. But I think we should be about just generally being together and going, what can we do? And let's let's make that happen.

58:51Patrick McCann:Yeah, couldn't agree more. We is absolutely greater than me. I'll keep saying that until I'm on my deathbed. OK, let's get to the current chief executive. what are your priorities of the city of london law society over the next few years whilst we've

59:04Andrew Keightley:still got you yeah so so my main thing is our new newly settled strategy at the over the overriding thing is to elevate and amplify which that means you know we wanted to be doing more important work we want to be in rooms where we're maybe not we want to be doing stuff that's more significant as a whole as city law and we want to really amplify that and talk about that as well and And so we have four hours underneath that. We want to rally resource. We want to robustify representation. We want to reinforce our reputation and then we want to radiate responsibility. And so I think what that means is that I think what we've agreed is that we will try and lead us to a better place.

59:39Andrew Keightley:Definitely one where all of our firms are making really significant, possibly obscene amounts of money and profits. But we also want to improve stuff. We want to do that in a way that's respected around the world, that attracts clients, that attracts other people to come and work with us, but also that gives back to society in the bigger sense, but also back into the sector. And what we have to do in a competitive world is just make it very clear around the globe, around the world, that London is where you do your law. You do it in London, right? It's better, it's more secure, you've got better minds there, it works at a pace, it absolutely adapts to what you need, and you get to do what you want to do, but you do that in a way that, you know, you can sort of sleep at night.

1:00:25Andrew Keightley:I have a theory that in theory, the only person that you have to sleep with every night of your life is yourself. You want to be sleeping with someone who respects you. So I think that's what I want us to be, just going, yeah, done a great job, brilliant work, clients are really happy, made lots of money, did it in a good way.

1:00:45Patrick McCann:I love that. I remember when someone said to me before, Rob do you know who you need to be kindest to? I was like thinking family and he's like know yourself and absolutely you know it's so so true. Okay before we let you go Patrick a couple of quick fire well not quick fire questions a couple of questions I want to ask. Firstly around the future proofing of the profession you know I've been running now for the last three years the great big legal off site we've had some incredible speakers Don and Denise Smith OBE incoming president of Law Society and various other people speak there and it's all around future proofing law firms and trying to really help educate the legal profession on where it's going.

1:01:17Patrick McCann:So if you were advising managing partners and indeed on the in-house side, general counsel or legal leaders, what are the three biggest areas they should be focusing on to ensure long term success? Yeah, I think you'll like number two.

1:01:28Andrew Keightley:Number one is you should focus on your people and delivering a proposition that actually works. Side note, it is not delivering massive profits. That is not the answer for most of your people. Second is collaborate before compete. And I would say actually just collaborate, don't compete. and then um the third is the core of what we do um you know that that will change of course it will but we have to know that recognize it and work with it and not lose it completely you know i speak to someone saying i don't want the cls to be just representing the equivalent of very overpaid estate agents it has to be more than that and i think that's what our firms want as well so

1:02:09Patrick McCann:that's what i would say great points and i would encourage people to go way back into our archives We've done over 500 episodes. And listen to Jessica Hampson, who's one law personality of the year many times over, but runs CEL Solicitors. And she has been from day one people before profits. And her law firm has never been so well regarded, the amount of accolades, the growth, the happiness, even their culture in the law firm and the office space and the say that people have on the space and things that matter to them. So go and listen to Jessica. Follow her on LinkedIn. Wonderful leader. really, really, really stands in light with a lot of the things that you just said there in terms of not just thinking about the profit per equity partner and pure profit.

1:02:46Patrick McCann:Okay, final piece of advice.

1:02:47Andrew Keightley:What's this legal personality of the year award about, which I know not. Excuse me. Excuse me. Is someone going to have me one from the side?

1:02:54Patrick McCann:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, this has been an absolute masterclass, as we knew it was going to be. Final piece of advice, Patrick. If you had to complete this sentence, how would you finish it? the legal profession of the future will be shaped not by the organizations that resist change but those that um kick the heck out of it so that the change itself says what the fact just happened there we go love it all right if our listeners or indeed watchers which i'm sure they will want to follow you learn more about the work all the great stuff you're getting up to where can they go feel free to share any websites any social media handles resources we'll also include them in this

1:03:29Andrew Keightley:very special episode for you too now i'm i'm not henry nelson case right so i'm not across all the socials apologies you can find me most safely on LinkedIn and I'm Patrick McCann I'm wearing a red jumper McCann is MCC a double n but just be warned I do post quite a lot I think I post I think I like the stuff I post but you can definitely mute me once it gets too much

1:03:54Patrick McCann:we will not encourage people to mute you I think what you're doing is fantastic your content's brilliant this conversation has been brilliant so it leads me to say thank you so much Patrick I'm So pleased we finally had you get you on the show. So from all of us here on the League's Bean podcast, sponsored by Clio, wishing you lots of continued success with your career. Hopefully we've got many more years left of you in and around the league profession yet. But for now, from all of us, over and out. Thank you for listening to this week's episode. If you like the content here, why not check out our world-leading content and collaboration of the Legally Speaking Club over on Discord.

1:04:27Patrick McCann:go to our website www.legallyspeakingpodcast.com there's a link to join our community there over and out