Premier League to Legal Pioneer: How Neil Heaney Turned a Legal Disaster into a Global Goal - S10E29

0:00You can never understand what a client's feeling before they make that first call to you. We're always alive to the fact that people are coming to us with a problem. We need to be that reassuring boss. We're not going to solve their case in that first call, but what we can do is give them sufficient reassurance that we are the people that can handle things for them. We see that happen so many times where the clients have gone abroad, fallen into the trap of going to see a house. The real estate agent is pressuring them to sign a deposit there and then. They think it's a reservation agreement. It's actually a full purchase contract which binds them.

0:38So education is a big thing for us in terms of trying to get to clients before they get on a plane or before they sign any sort of document in any jurisdiction. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Neil Heaney. Neil is a CEO and founder of Judicare Law International, a specialist UK firm focused on international legal matters. He founded the business after being frustrated by the quality of legal advice he received when he himself purchased the property abroad. Today, Judicare handles matters across Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Before building Judicare, Neil was also a professional footballer coming through Arsenal and later playing in the Premier League for Southampton.

1:21This is a conversation about more than law. It's about what happens when someone experiences the legal system from the client side, feels let down and decides to build something better. We get into cross-border legal risk, trust, access, the right to expertise and how to look after clients when their legal problem is happening somewhere far from home. So let's get into it. So a very big warm welcome to the show Neil. Thank you very much. Pleased to be here. Oh it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Very excited about today's discussion. But before we dive in we always always like to start with something a little bit light on the show.

1:59So firstly what's your favorite beverage and what's your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day? Oh I probably drink too much coffee. Other than that it would probably be a pint of Guinness. shoes it would probably if it didn't have any meetings it would probably be a pair of training shoes there we go good stuff and that leads nicely on to perhaps you had different shoes when we talk about your background so would you uh tell us a bit about your background career journey from professional football into building a very successful international law firm yes so born and raised in middlesbrough in the northeast of england um grew up there family is still there I, as most children do, had a dream of playing football.

2:40I was very fortunate growing up playing in all the local sides and the regional sides. And I was scouted by Arsenal when I was about 12, 13 years old, which led me on a long career journey of being a professional footballer. So I signed for Arsenal at the age of 13. I went down there every holiday for school holidays and half terms and then I was fortunate to be taken on on the old YTS scheme which many may remember but probably a lot won't. Then I was fortunate again to get a professional contract and then to eventually get through and play in the first team and that led me on to a career of just over a decade for quite a few clubs professionally.

3:30So it was a heck of a ride, I have to say. Absolutely. And that's why we're so excited to have today's discussion. Such an interesting and different background into law. And that's where I want to stay really, because looking back at that sort of career in elite sport, that obviously, you know, what prepared you best for business leadership and dealing with pressure? Tell us what from your football backgrounds helped you in your professional life. Well, I think anybody who's played professional sport to an elite level or to any level really will understand the concept of pressure. Yeah. And I think there's, for me, there's, or my experience is there's two types of pressure.

4:10There's internal pressure, which is how you address, how you're going to react to be able to be the best you can be every day that the the pressures that you put on yourself really um so those are the internal pressures which i think in the main you can control yeah then there's the external pressures which is everything else which is the fans the media your own teammates how they demand things of you which of course is a little bit more difficult to control and so the the two types of pressures really and I think anyone who's been in a team environment they will understand those pressures or maybe not even in a team environment but we all feel those internal and external pressures and I think the control issue is I mean the concept of pressures it's you know it's subjective anyway I think the pressures that you put on yourself are the ones really that you can control so I think it's important to focus on those ones rather than external pressures and the noise that comes from from outside when I was playing I was very fortunate to play under some fantastic leaders and some fantastic teams and I think once you've been part of that you understand what it means to be within a team or to lead a team so the background in football and being in those dressing rooms under this perceived pressure of needing to win a game or you know a playoff final at Wembley or a cup final so being within that team environment it's stood me in really good stead I think for around for where we've gone to afterwards.

6:10Yeah, and that's been hugely successful as well. I guess sticking to life just before law, because before you owned your own law firm, you're obviously a client of various law firms. So what was that experience like from a client side? And what feelings do you most remember having at that time? Out with the setting up of the law firm and the circumstances surrounding that, when I was playing football I didn't really as most people I didn't really have the need for any interaction with law firms or lawyers open there was a few examples when there was contractual negotiations or when I was being transferred to one club to another obviously there were lawyers involved my overriding memory of lawyers and law firms at that time was was incredibly positive as it remains today.

7:00I always had the impression that the lawyers that were working for me were doing exactly that. They had my best interests at heart. So overall my experiences of the profession of law firms and lawyers was always a positive one I have to say. And then there was a personal turning point because you I believe had a particular need for specialist legal help when you and some of your footballing colleagues fell victim to problems around overseas property investments. Was it easy at that time to find the right lawyer and what did that experience teach you about how exposed clients can feel particularly in those sort of cross-border matters?

7:38Yeah I mean unfortunately at the end of my playing career I and many many others hundreds of sports stars started to be offered the opportunity to invest in overseas properties largely off-climb. Unfortunately, in my situation, mine and others, we were caught up in a large-scale fraud in the cost of El Sol, which was for us to put deposits down on the properties that were not built at that point, so offline, as they were called. Unfortunately, they never materialized and the individuals disappeared. So at that point, this is probably 25 years ago, it wasn't so easy as it is today to go on the search engines and they'll give you 10 tests, then they'll give you the background to those firms and what they've done, etc.

8:33It was very different then. One of huge frustration that there wasn't really any single solution in the UK at that point that I could find that could handle cases of this nature, cross-border, criminal cases in the high courts in Spain. So it was very, very frustrating. And obviously that led to the genesis of JudyCare and how it actually came to be because I effectively had to go and find, I had to jump on a plane and go and find some law firms in and around the Costa del Sol at that time, interview them, find out what they could do for us and whether or not they could handle these cases and then liaise with the group of clients that I was representing.

9:20I say representing, I was effectively a spokesperson, really. And so very, very frustrating, Robin, very different to what it is today. But even the calls that we get from clients today where they've experienced similar things, the overriding thing is frustration. Yeah, and obviously, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Because certain people sit with frustration and perhaps just sit with that. Whereas it sounds like you obviously had that entrepreneurial side of you as well, that, you know, not just having that frustration, but you went beyond just being frustrated and complaining to actually finding a solution and actually building a business and solving a problem for others.

10:02So you sense there was demand. So would you sort of classify yourself as a natural born entrepreneur or was it just such frustration that you thought this needed to happen? And tell us a little bit about that story of launching your firm and what your firm's called. Yeah, so I think it was frustration. I think at that point as well, one of the overriding factors that I was experiencing was guilt. In that I'd been caught in this scam, this fraud, and I hadn't done what I should have done in terms of due diligence and looked into it too much. I just took it at face value. There were some incredibly high profile sports stars on the front of the brochure.

10:39and I really took the view that if they were on the front of the brochure surely their representatives would have done the due diligence for us and therefore it was a green line for us to proceed so frustration at not doing the due diligence and that's something that we profess every day to clients here who were looking to invest abroad but yeah I think as well at that point there was the money that was lost as well it was a significant amount of money that was lost for myself and the rest of the group so I think a bit of belligerence rather than entrepreneur spirit that I wasn't going to let it go and I think I wanted a bit of justice and I know sometimes Rob that's a lofty statement and a lofty ambition but that's how we all felt When we couldn't get that from anything in the UK, it meant that we had to go a different route.

11:37And as I say, that then became the genesis of Judicare, which has been in existence for around about, as an entity, it's been in existence for around about 19 years. but more recently, 10 years ago, we decided to make the jump to be a regulated firm here in the UK because I just wanted to build something more substantial and something that people could firmly rely on and I think that we've been fairly successful in doing that. absolutely hugely successful and I think one thing that we're very aligned on as a core pillar of the show and indeed Clio who sponsor our show is is access to justice so you know your point there is absolutely um you know something we we fully support and again for the listeners learning for the first time or watchers learning about JudyCare how would you say in a sentence or two what it is that you do who you help and where you add the most value we're rather unique in that we are an SRA regulated firm but we don't undertake any UK work.

12:48All of the instructions that we take are of an international nature and typically Rob it's UK clients who have wanted to buy an overseas property maybe as a second home or as a lifestyle change to move the family there so we assist those clients in doing the due diligence so when they find somewhere or even before that we try and educate them on things they should be thinking about questions to ask documents to receive before they pay any money to to anybody so it's it's the before and we presently are active in 15 different jurisdictions largely it's the key the jurisdictions where British clients have have tended to want to invest Spain, Portugal, Cyprus, Greece, Italy, Dubai these days.

13:47There's some more exotic ones like Barbados and Cape Verde and Dominican Republic, but it's usually the normal jurisdictions. So that's the before work as I tend to call it. And then we do the after work, which is where perhaps they've already invested and it hasn't gone wrong or something's not as it should be so they instruct us then to try and unpick things and maybe try and recover a deposit or if they've entered into a lending agreement with a foreign bank and that foreign bank have not given them the necessary information to make an informed decision and they found themselves in financial trouble we will then negotiate or litigate against those foreign banks in order to try and release those clients from the obligations.

14:42So it's a bit of a before and a bit of an after and everything that flows from that really Rob. So inheritances, foreign probates, wills. So it's a really interesting daily job. The inquiries are, as you can imagine, they can be extremely varied. So no day is typically the same. no absolutely not and and so with that you know you're you're super busy you know business owner surely and you've lifted all the different jurisdictions there and things that could be happening surely you can't know every case the firm has taken on and how those matters are progressing so how do you stay close enough to the work to ensure that the standards do remain high and indeed your clients still feel genuinely looked after and not just a number yeah i mean It's a challenge, of course, when we're in so many jurisdictions.

15:32But I think that's part of why clients come to us and trust us, I hope. Certainly all the feedback we get across the review platforms. The one thing that always stands out is that clients say that they feel listened to. They feel that we have a genuine interest in the services we provide to them. and that you know they get the overriding feeling that we're all in this together which is great for us and that's fantastic feedback. In terms of how do we manage it obviously we have lots of systems in the office to be able to manage that, that's partly my job and partly everyone else in the team but the lawyers that we choose in the jurisdictions and law firms that we work with They're incredibly diligent.

16:25So, of course, it's effectively two pairs of eyes watching everything. So if, for instance, we might miss something, the foreign firm usually pick that up and vice versa. So we find that it works quite well and we're able to do so. I want to go a bit deeper on that because that sounds very sort of purpose at scale, given the breadth of what you're doing. And you've obviously spoken about being super passionate and purpose driven when it comes to actually looking after your clients, in particular given what you went through and indeed so many other high profile sports people so how do you actually make that real when you're working through those lawyers and law firms around the world rather than always handling things directly do you have a sort of diligence process you go through in terms of electing the types of lawyers and people you collaborate with yeah we do i mean it's incredibly important that we select the right law firms in foreign jurisdictions to work with.

17:19Because I think clients in the UK when they come to us and instruct us, they see our foreign associate firms as an extension of us. So it's incredibly important that we have the right people. And I think long before we decide on their legal capabilities, I think, again, I go back to being in a team environment. Being in a team situation, I think over the years, has sharpened up certainly my ability, I think, to engage with people on a personal level first. We need to make sure that these firms buy into exactly what we're doing, the ethos behind the company, our why effectively. So it's important, really important that they understand that and they buy into that And to be fair, all of the firms that we work with in the foreign jurisdictions, they do really buy into that.

18:18And that's so important because should the client need to speak to a foreign firm or the foreign lawyers need to just clarify a point with a client, it's really important that they can speak great English and that the client feels that they are an extension of duty care. so that's really important and it's critical effectively to the running of the firm. Yeah, it's an extension of your brand and reputation so with that then perhaps in the earlier days what separates good legal partners from a risky one from any experiences you may have had over the years? Again I think it goes down to you tend to get a bit of a gut feeling about people, I think, in general.

19:03Yeah. And certainly when we're interviewing firms, it's easy, I think, to understand or you take for granted that they can probably do the legal work. But what sits behind that is what drives them. You know, is it the will to obtain justice, so to speak, or is it just to get billable hours? and I think over the years of interviewing firms I've been able to get a bit of a read on exactly the type of firm and the type of lawyer and the type of ethos that that we need really so it is difficult we get lots of enquiries from foreign firms who would like to work with us so the the diligence process it usually takes us about six months Rob if we're taking on a new firm to understand them I will then typically always fly and go meet them at their offices spend a little bit of time with them and I tend to get a bit of a feeling about who who would fit and work well because in some instances we have to work across various jurisdictions so even the law firms have to interact with each other so they all have to be of a certain a certain standard of course but they all have to have that really engaging personal traits as well which again is very important because they are an extension of us.

20:32Yeah and I say it time and time again rapport wins the war really really important and you know with that then having a really multi-jurisdictional international business what are some of the biggest differences and challenges when working with these international firms and indeed practitioners perhaps compared to dealing with UK lawyers and I can imagine there's some jurisdictions that it's not necessarily just legal difference but perhaps might be commercial communication style differences cultural tell us a bit about that all of those I think you have to be alive to certainly cultural differences in some jurisdictions even by their admissions you know that the judicial system and the courts are not as robust or as quick in dealing with cases as we're used to in the UK.

21:21So cases can run on for 10, 11, 12 years. And so it's cultural differences and are really important to be alive too. It's not a criticism of foreign firms, but I think a lot of overseas lawyers will take the view Rob that if nothing is happening on the case we don't need to communicate with you so if nothing happens on the case it might go years that's not good enough for UK clients it's not what they would expect so it's working again I go back to selection of the phones it's getting them to buy into a culture of listen even if nothing is happening just drop us a quick email maybe jump want to call with a client just to keep the reassurance factor with the clients so those those are some of the the differences certainly the cultural aspects religious aspects as well um which we have to be alive to you know dealing with a managing partner in a firm in cyprus is very different to dealing with a managing partner a firm in the middle east or in morocco or in the Dominican Republic.

22:34So it's being alive to that, being respectful to it. But again, that comes with the time that you spend fostering these relationships with these foreign lawyers, that they buy into what we're doing, and therefore it's a lot easier to cross those issues and to head them off possibly if they start to drop the standards, which, to be honest, they don't. No, and that's pleasing to hear. And yeah, we talk a lot about the importance of nurturing relationships over time to really get the best optimal output of them. And you were touching on obviously the expectations of UK clients because they're often perhaps deeply nervous about foreign legal matters because everything feels a little bit unfamiliar, a bit harder to control to understand.

23:21So I know you mentioned about the contact, but how do you make sure things really do run smoothly? And just as importantly, how do you help them calm those worries that they may have? One of the most important things that drives me and drives what we do here is customer care. And what's that client journey like from the moment they touch the business? What's the first call is so important. I suppose you only ever get the chance to make a first impression once so make sure it's a good one so we're always alive to the fact that people are coming to us notwithstanding people who are buying a nice house or a secondary home people who are coming to us with a problem we need to be that reassuring voice we're not going to solve their case in that first call but what we can do is give them sufficient reassurance that we are the people that can handle things for them.

24:17We do know what we do and we have the experience. And in some instances, I suppose you don't know what you don't know. So it's just giving them a little bit of an insight into what would happen should they instruct us and trying really to make the whole process not as scary as they've probably envisaged in their mind. because when they pick up the telephone to us, I'm very sure that they've probably been thinking about that call for weeks, if not months, and worried about the call and the implications to them, what might happen to them. Are they at risk in the UK for all their property or their assets if they've been sued in a foreign jurisdiction?

24:59So the feedback that we tend to get across all the review platforms is just that. People felt that we were reassuring, and that actually, you know, we could handle that issue for them. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. If you're spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it's time for a change. Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder. Switching is easier than you might think. Clio's dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way, so you can focus on what matters most, your clients.

25:44Plus, award-winning support 24-5 via live chat, phone, and email means help is always on hand when you need it. Visit clio.com forward slash UK to find out why thousands of UK solicitors trust Clio. Now back to the show. I love that you're exceptionally client-centric as well because I strongly believe particularly in this world that we're going through the tech revolution company mentioned we haven't said AI yet on a podcast it's crazy but it's uh it's so it's so important and you know because your firm gives UK people and businesses access to legal expertise basically around the world as I say we keep listing all the multiple jurisdictions that you've been able to operate in are there cases where that access has made all the difference when maybe the client might otherwise have been completely out of their debt because I think JudiCare has recently highlighted a hard thought Supreme Court win in Spain over these property dispute which feels like a strong example of the kind of outcome act state in this space so tell us more about that.

26:43Yeah so in terms of the the Supreme Court decision that case we took that case on probably about 14 years ago and it's gone through various stages and first and foremost the backstory to it was a client had invested some money into an overseas property in Spain the developer had not delivered the project and the communication that started to be sparse so we looked at the case there were some breaches in the contract so we moved against the developer in Spain through the courts in Spain to recover the investment. Unfortunately, halfway through the litigation, the developer filed for bankruptcy.

27:31But what we needed to do, because we'd already potentially seen that that might be something that might happen in Spain, there was also another piece of legislation which foresaw that if a developer had taken a deposit into their accounts through a Spanish bank then the Spanish bank also had some responsibility and some liability. So we ended up going after the receiving bank in Spain using the legislation in Spain. We successfully won the first case at first instance that was about nine years ago unfortunately the bank appealed to the appeal courts that was another three or four years we were successful in that appeal and then unfortunately the bank tried again so they filed an appeal to the supreme court in spain and that was another few years of uh of a battle with them and in recent weeks we've had the decision that it's gone in our favour and the bank's claim was, the bank's appeal was dismissed.

28:40So after a very long fight, we will recover all of the clients' money. You know, it's a life-changing amount of money for them. And I think it demonstrates again the resilience that we and clients jointly, we give this impression that we're in it with them. We won't abandon them if things start to get a bit rough and we're in it right till the end. And I think that that's a perfect example of a long case where we've stood with the client and finally we've had the successful judgment. So I think that that's one of our real highlights, certainly in the last month for sure, in that case has gone from that very difficult position from the client to when we're able to write them a nice check.

29:27shoulder shoulder all the way through and so important isn't it because that's what clients ultimately need and expect because you know international property and cross-border legal issues can be full of a lot of misinformation delay false confidence you know lies so what do clients most get wrong from your experience at the outset and what should they be asking much earlier when we speak to clients we always try to say to them if you're buying a property abroad just on the property issue then have a mindset and approach it in exactly the same manner as if you were buying a house in the UK you would never use the lawyer of the real estate agent you would never not get a survey or evaluation you would never pay a deposit without getting a lawyer to look at things yet so many times we see that happen where the clients have gone abroad maybe they've had a few drinks, they've fallen into the trap of going to see a house, the real estate agent has put pressure on them to sign a deposit there and then.

30:31What they think is a reservation agreement, it's actually a full purchase contract which binds them. So education again is a big thing for us in terms of trying to get to clients before they get on a plane or before they sign any sort of document in any jurisdiction. It's just to take a step back and just to adopt the mindset of what you would do in the UK. Think, would I do that in the UK if I was buying a property? And if the answer is no, then why would you consider doing in a jurisdiction that you don't live in with a real estate agent you've never met, with a lawyer you've never met, pay money to a developer who you have no history with whatsoever.

31:14When you start to use that mindset you can see that there's many red flags that clients need to be aware of and that's not everyone Rob of course but I think if you adopt that mindset you typically won't get into much trouble notwithstanding if a developer goes into bankruptcy for financial reasons that's just one of those things and they'll be redress but but to have in mind to take a sensible view before or you just jump. It's so true. I sort of, a bit of a segue, I always talk about the way you act online is how you should act offline. You know, and similarly, like the way you're going about a house purchase here in the UK, you know, you should probably do a similar, or at least make sure you're doing those due diligence in the same way, or indeed instructing the experts rather than cutting corners.

31:58So, you know, really good advice. And, you know, we've talked about your frustrations and how you entered the world of law first as a client, not through necessarily the legal route. What do you think law firms still do not fully understand about how clients actually experience legal problems? Over the years, certainly the law firms I've encountered do some fantastic work for clients. And I think, you know, they do get it. You can never understand what a client's feeling before they make that first call to you. One thing that you can absolutely affect is how that client feels when they put the phone down and they have spoken to you.

32:36just to be that reassuring, calm and authoritative voice and to make sure that they feel that when they've spoken to you, they feel a lot better than before they did. Now, obviously what flows from that is, do they then want to instruct you and trust you, etc. Law firms can affect that decision by how that client feels when they put the telephone down. I love that they always say don't you it's not what you do for them it's how you make them feel and I can relate to that from my instructions with lawyers or professionals over the years or in the world of work for uh yeah more years than I care to mention that I've been been in and what we also love about this conversation is the bigger mission and you know Clio's mission that support our show is to transform the legal experience for all we support that here on the show we're looking to inspire legal minds and transform legal futures globally and you know your recent work particularly around building communities networks for firms and professionals suggest your thinking beyond just individual cases so what bigger gap in the market are you trying to fill for UK clients or indeed for UK law firms who need that trusted capability that international capability because Judycare I think has recently been publicly linked with its Jlaw network aimed at helping UK firms support clients with international legal needs so again tell us more we've always added their network rob but we've actually given the name to it now um so we launched jlar very recently and it's been incredibly well received i have to say um because we don't do any uk work we're effectively the perfect complement to uk firms who don't have any international capability but do from time to time have the need for you know perhaps one of their clients has an inheritance and there's an asset in France or in Cyprus but they don't really know how to do it.

34:33So rather than just putting a thumb in the air and going on the internet and trying to find a firm that might help, by working with us and joining our community, you know, we're there to answer questions, we're there to assist their clients but also to just keep them informed and abreast of certain things that happen in international jurisdictions, international markets. So we're just there to support them and let them know that should they need us or their clients, then we do have that international capability. And of course, they get the added bonus, so to speak, of instructing a regulated firm in the UK with all of the guardrails and the safety nets that come with that.

35:21So, GLA has been really well received, I have to say, and it's been quite enlightening and really welcome to us, yeah. We absolutely fully support community. I think it's so important for all the reasons you've just highlighted there. And I think if you can be in a community, the access to that information, those worries, you know, supportive networks, all of that good stuff, invaluable. Okay, I want to switch lanes back to football, just for some quick fire questions before we close on some legal stuff. so going back to the arson days who's your favorite player you ever played with favorite not best player ever played with matt letizia best player you ever played with matt letizia most memorable moment as a sportsman what was your favorite moment oh good question um probably two that stand out one would be um playing for england at under 21 level which Back then was a real highlight for myself.