Redefining Justice with Top UK Defence Barrister & Leading Counsel Jeremy Dein KC - S9E28

0:00You are the person standing between the state and the individual. The starting point within our criminal justice process is to address the question of who we send to prison. That's the starting point. We have a prison population which is the biggest in the free world. There has to be scope for sending those people to prison, but they should become the exception rather than the rule. I regard the work of defence lawyers in this country as so valuable. And honestly, if the public knew how hard we worked and the way we worked and the ethical standards we adhere to and the commitment we show and the role we play in society, I think they would take a very, very different view.

0:44On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Jeremy Dean Casey. Jeremy is one of the most highly regarded defense counsel in the country, specializing in serious offenses, including murder, terrorism and organized crime. He has dealt with multiple high profile cases which have gained significant media attention. As described by Chambers and Partners, Jeremy is a fighter and no case is too complex for him. He works tirelessly to ensure the right outcome. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Jeremy. Thank you very much, Rob. I'm very happy to be here. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the Legally Speaking podcast.

1:21Very excited to get into today's discussion. Before we dive into your incredible career, we do have an icebreaker question for you, Jeremy. On the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law if you've seen it. I'm afraid I haven't seen it and that is all I can say about it. And with that you can give it a zero and we can move swiftly on to talking all about you. So to begin with Jeremy would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? Rob I've been at the criminal bar now since 1983.

1:58I was called to the bar in 1982 so a very, very, very long time ago, although it genuinely feels like yesterday. I was born in East London, believe it or not, because I know I don't sound like it. I'm a Cockney. I was born literally a few yards away from the Bow Bells in Bow Hospital. My father was as Cockney a character as you could ever come across, with the thickest Cockney accent you could imagine, and my mum too. and I grew up in East London, went to a state school, went to Queen Mary College in the East End, although I didn't actually live at home perversely, don't ask me why I did that, but that's what happened.

2:38I couldn't really prise myself away from my beloved East End and went to the bar. I was called in 1982, as I've said, and I've been on my journey incredibly now for four and a bit decades and and that's that's a very bare outline in my career path and it's been such a successful career path and you know we're really honored to have you on the show and so getting into a bit more detail then from sort of the old bailey to the bbc how do you actually balance the demands of being this top tier criminal casey i might add within your role as well as a legal educator from get my words out and media commentator because it's a lot of work thanks for those comments, Rob.

3:21I don't really see myself that way, actually. I see myself still as a little kid, you know, from sort of sitting on the stairs trying to find out how West Ham were doing in the days when there was no TV football. So it's been an incredible journey. And, you know, in situations like this, really is the only time I reflect upon it. Otherwise, you just get on with your daily life. I mean, it has been action-packed, and it remains action-packed. And that's the way I want it to be. And I think the answer is a lot to do with good fortune in the sense that, you know, I've got a wife who's incredibly free spirited.

4:00So, you know, I've got a lot of independence. She's very encouraging. I thrive on pressure. It's a bit of a love hate relationship. But, you know, with all the things that are going on, they just keep me exhilarated and they keep my sense of, you know, ambition and momentum. So I kind of just balance them out really. And I think, you know, for me, excitement and challenge are the food of life. So that's how I've kept it going. And, you know, at the moment, it's still at the same level it's ever been. I'm sure there'll come a time in the not too distant future when I'll have to calm it down a bit.

4:41But that point hasn't come yet. And I don't want it to come yet for you just yet, selfishly for us here on the show. and you're right you know the famous quote pressure is a privilege and you know i remember a mentor said to me very early on you know new level new devil as you keep going up or keep getting involved there's going to be new things new challenges new things you need to overcome and it's part of your growth isn't it i think it is yeah i think it is yeah and you've defended in some of the most high profile uk criminal trials so what's been the most challenging case if you can share and what did it teach you most about justice i mean i think every case is challenging, because if you take it seriously, which most criminal defence barristers do, then what happens is that when you're in a trial, it takes over your life.

5:24It really does, and it becomes the focal point of your life for that period of time, especially, obviously, when you're doing very serious cases. But I do think that the most challenging situation professionally was the Talisa case, the Talisa, who was an X-Factor judge and lead singer in N-Dubs, who was subject to the Sun on Sunday sting at the hands of the Sun on Sunday and Mazel Mahmood, the fake sheikh, because that case was very serious. She was at risk of going to prison for a significant period of time. She was set up by the Sun on Sunday and by Mazel Mahmood. The evidence against her was difficult to counteract, but morally and in terms of justice, it would have been a real travesty if she'd been convicted and there was just incredible pressure on me in that case because her whole professional life her reputation her personal life were at stake and so that case stands out to me as being one where which was exceptionally stressful and challenging and that leads nicely onto a question I was going to ask link to your mindset values and resilience and before I do that.

6:39I do remember that case. And our listeners will know the Legally Speaking Podcast also has our own event with the High Risk, the Great Big Legal Offsite. And we actually had the MC, Peter Dixon, of the voice of the X Factor in Britain's Got Talent. It was a fantastic event. So I'd encourage our listeners to go and check out that on the Legally Speaking Podcast website to learn more about that event. But in terms of yourself, Jeremy, you've mentioned that case, you're a fearless advocate, obviously known for, you know, unwavering, if I can say, moral conviction? How do you actually stay grounded while defending clients in a very emotional and perhaps very ethically charged case?

7:14That's a very good question. I think what you do is you just commit yourself totally to the case and you know that you are the person that is standing between the state and the individual. That is a very, very important role. I never lose sight of the significance of that role. And you just fight the case as hard as you can. And in a way, there isn't any room for emotion or sympathy or anger or frustration. You're so all consumed with the challenge that you face, that you just get on with it. And I'm very proud to be a criminal defence barrister. When I'm doing my cases, even now after, you know, so long, I know this is going to sound a bit cringy, but it's genuinely how I feel.

8:07I just feel very privileged to have been able to do a job, if that's the right word, which has such importance and which, you know, fulfills a major role in a free society. And whatever the verdict is, so be it. You know, that's not my responsibility. So I stay grounded by just getting on with it, doing what I'm there to do, doing the best of my ability, and grappling with the challenges that confront me. And there is no time or space to kind of get anything else at the time you're doing these cases. Yeah, and you're exceptionally passionate and dedicated to what you do, hence the amount of accolades and market recognition you've had.

8:49Steaming from that then, I'm just thinking about misconceptions maybe the public has still about criminal defence work? And how do you hope maybe your media work and extra things that you've done is changing that and maybe changing some of those misconceptions? OK, well, I think, again, Rob, that's a very, very good and important issue you've raised and one that's very precious to me because I regard the role of criminal defence lawyers in this country. I can't speak much about, you know, other countries, but I regard the work of defence lawyers in this country as so valuable. And honestly, if the public knew, if the public knew how hard we worked and the way we worked and the ethical standards we adhere to and the commitment we show and the role we play in society, I think they would take a very, very different view.

9:46And also, you know, especially for the lower echelons of the profession, the fees are not particularly good at all. And yet people get on and do such a fantastic job. So what my media opportunities have done is, I hope, enabled me to get that message across. Because there is nothing for criminal defence lawyers in this country to be maligned about. We do, you know, I'm very fortunate. I'm at the top of the profession. so you know i have time and space between my cases i know what my diary is in the future but the foot soldiers they run around all over the country day in day out they very often don't know what case they're going to be doing tomorrow whether they go from bristol to manchester to exeter they get their brief sometimes at 6 p.m at night because somebody else can't do the case So they do an incredible job.

10:39And, you know, someone like me today, and I'm grateful to you for giving the opportunity. And in terms of my media opportunities generally facilitate the message going out. Please, you know, recognize the fantastic work that we do. So I'm really happy that I have that opportunity. And you do it so well. And that's why we were so keen as well as legal educators and trying to our tagline of the show is inspiring legal minds. transforming legal futures is to bring information and stories and wisdom from people who have been out there that have done it that you know really know what they're talking about and perhaps can change misconceptions because the amount of work and dedication and things that go on behind the scenes as you just touched on there is is phenomenal and so maybe that leads me to the journey then in terms of how but well if i can just start sorry to interrupt you but if i can just add this don't know i just want to add this also what the public need to recognize you know I'm not really speaking about myself because I am right, you know, at the top.

11:36And I and so I've had all the years of experience and I have teams to assist me. I mean, it does apply to me, but it applies much more importantly, so far as I'm concerned across the board. What the public also needs to recognize in terms of the work that we do, that we're dealing all the time with damaged individuals. You know, we're dealing with people who come from the most oppressive backgrounds. backgrounds, very often people who've been sexually abused, domestically abused, you know, the victims of violent abuse, psychological problems, psychiatric problems, all these things. So we're not only, you know, performing a very important role and working very hard, but the people that we're actually representing, the people we're dealing with on a day-to-day basis are hugely challenging.

12:19So there needs to be an understanding of the value of the work that defence lawyers do because because it's very important that you know that is recognised anyway that's what I have to say on that sorry I interrupted you and that was a very very important point and it also sort of touches on a lot of my why really in terms of my understanding that I came from probably what might be deemed more of a privileged background and you know I always think I can't change that but I can pass the baton forward and I can do good things such as this show and bring on voices like you and educate and do good with that to put more good into society, to try and make a positive impact, to try and make a change.

12:58And so I thank you for doing that. And that touches on a lot of the values and things that we support here. And I was going to ask just around the journey because we talked off there and I touched on, obviously, we partner with Clio, the world's largest legal technology company. We can't get away from technology as advancing in every industry and will continue to do so. So from your role as a criminal barrister, I think over 40 years you practice, where do you see it heading? Give us your more historical but also forward looking perspective and do you see technology having a large impact? I mean technology is having a huge impact on the criminal justice system and I've no doubt will continue to do so.

13:35I mean for a large part of my career, well firstly I was called in 82, I mean computers didn't come about, you know, in any meaningful way until well into the 90s, and mobile phones were sort of early 90s. So it's incredible to think that in the early years of my career, everything was done on paper. You know, we literally wrote everything out on paper and handed it to a typist. And if our clerks wanted to contact us when we were all over the country, you know, they'd have to somehow ring the court to get the court usher, you know, to describe the individual, you know, you can imagine what description was given, a lot allocated to me to try and find the bar and so on.

14:16And then obviously, as the decades have gone by, things have changed. The biggest innovation in the criminal justice process, technologically, is the digital case system, whereby in the criminal justice world, everything, everything in every case, bar very few, is uploaded onto one digital system so that the judge, the prosecution and the defence all have access to that system. Everything is carefully numbered. Sometimes there are thousands and thousands of documents. And increasingly in the criminal courts, it's paperless and barristers are working simply off the digital system. The challenge for someone like me is to try and adapt completely to that because I'm used to having files, post-it notes, coloured markers, coloured pens.

15:03So I'm a bit of a, I can work off the digital system in terms of preparation, but when I actually get into court, I still have, you know, the old-fashioned files and stickers and so on and so forth. But also, Rob, in terms of criminal justice process, investigative techniques are, you know, developing by the minute and trials are now characterised by you know all types of technological evidence relating to telephones you know CCTV and all kinds of things so the criminal justice system is moving very very fast in that respect even at a time when it's under huge pressure you know in other ways the only thing I just add sorry that my response is slightly lengthy but you've raised a really important issue is that juries are still stuck in little jury boxes with bits of paper and pens they don't get ipads or computers um so it's slightly odd that you know all this technology has you know found its way into the criminal justice process of the trial but the jury just sort of all crammed in to a little jury box trying to scribble on paper um and that's how it remains Do you think that may change?

16:17It might do. But honestly, the criminal justice system is so under pressure financially with the backlog and everything else. You just don't know because physically the courts are falling apart. The actual buildings, the buildings are in a terrible mess with one or two exceptions. The old Bailey's still a great and iconic building. But going out and about to the other crown courts, which I don't do a lot, but which a lot of my colleagues do. you know they're all got damp and the and you know that they're grubby and there are a lot of problems so i'm not sure there's you know much funding to improve the the lot of the jury i don't know but i doubt it yeah and it reminds me of when i was a young pup when so my late grandfather of listeners will know he ran a successful law firm in leicestershire where i'm from built up to one of the sort of leicester's second richest city in the uk actually in the 1950s due to the hosiery trade and was able to build a very successful law firm that span across the region.

17:16And I remember he said, go to the courts and watch. And even back then, you know, they were a little bit grubby. They weren't that great. They looked a bit wrong. And just thinking back to, you know, his generation where it was all paper and he would tell me stories of my late grandma at the time that was writing shorthand as one of the receptions taking notes. And, you know, they were literally just really paper strong. I'd go to the strong room. I'd go and get the deeds, the files and everything else whereas the modern professional coming in it like you say it's a lot of it's all online it's it's a big oh absolutely to what i mean you you very often you you you very often see in a court center you know in the corridors and so on almost all barristers just walking around with it i've just done a long case in winchester with my junior council you know i lugged up in my car on sunday with five six seven files and so on and he kind of you know breezed in on monday morning just with his computer yeah crazy and the same same material same material so that's just how it is a boring interesting fact i was born in winchester i don't know a lot about it so i think that's a first people would know there we go lovely place it's not boring it just shows how you know strange coincidence is absolutely so on sort of your career journey then what drew you to sort of criminal appellate work and can you share a case where your advocacy truly changed the course of someone's life um right but very you know very interesting um issues i i think what drew me to being a i wasn't so much drawn to criminal law i was drawn to being a defense i was drawn to being an advocate for the underdog i was okay you know i wasn't i i wasn't particularly academic at school I was a very odd pupil because I was unbelievably bad at certain subjects like maths, physics and chemistry, where I struggled really badly and woodwork and art and subjects like that.

19:18I mean, my art teacher, he was a very odd man. You know, I'm absolutely convinced that, you know, I was the most hated person he'd ever come. I was so bad at art. But I was very good at the arts. I was good at history and English subjects like that. And the one thing I was good at was public speaking, which was quite odd because quite shy. But, you know, I did grow up in a in a strong working class household. My dad was a waiter. It was very much a Daily Mirror household where the Daily Mirror would come through the letterbox, you know, a Labour household. and clearly as we all do you know like you I just was formed by my background and I wanted to be a spot I wanted to be an advocate for the underdog that's what I wanted to do yeah and so the obvious place to go for that was to the criminal bar and so that you know that's what drew me to that and you know I haven't really looked back because because it's worked It's worked well for me.

20:20And I still love being, you know, a spokesman for what I call the underdog. I mean, whether the individuals are always truly the underdog, you know, especially as you go through your career where you move into private work and so on. I'm not sure the underdog is necessarily the right word, but largely they have been. In terms of cases, I mean, I'll be honest, I need to think about your question in relation to a particular case. It's a really fantastic question. If I could just answer the question more widely and say that, especially in homicide cases, which I've done a lot on in the last 20 to 25 years, very often the issue is manslaughter or murder for a whole range of reasons.

21:14and if someone is convicted of murder when they should be convicted of manslaughter that's a really serious miscarriage of justice because the sentence framework is so different so i would say that i feel that the biggest impact i've been able to have is to secure verdicts for manslaughter just verdicts for manslaughter in very serious unpleasant homicide cases when my advocacy but for my advocacy there might have been convictions for murder so a person might have got a life sentence with a 25 year minimum term wrongly wrongly whereas the defense barrister and you're asking about me here has been able to get the correct verdict which is man's daughter with a fixed term of 15 years so i think and you know in the talisa case for example where i did win against all the odds my advocacy obviously made a difference there sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't work but it's hard to pick out individual cases i just think that you know the defense advocates can and does often make a big difference and secure the right result on the facts of the case and that you know gives me a lot of fulfillment for myself and for my profession yeah and i want to talk about the future of the profession because and maybe you know what legacy means to you because you've held various very senior leadership roles joint heads of chambers director of education the cba so what have these roles taught you about shaping the future of the bar what what they've taught me i mean rob again just to divert slightly when i came into the profession you won't believe how unpleasant it was it was so sexist and racist that unless you fitted the mould, which I did not.

23:06I didn't look like a barrister. I didn't even sound like a barrister at that time. It was deeply unpleasant. I think what my roles professionally, you know, in the CBA and as Director of Education, I've seen a lot of changes in the profession. I've seen a lot more, you know, fairness. Women have been embraced much more. Ethic minorities have been embraced much more. You know, I think what being at the leadership end of the CBA has done has enabled me not just to play a part in opening up the profession over the years, but also to recognise the importance of giving everybody the opportunity to come to the bar, because, you know, it is a great profession, it is hugely important.

23:51And so being able to make a a minor contribution to the development of the profession has you know given me the chance i hope to promote the changes that when i came into the profession simply were not on the agenda it was just completely white male etonian it was actually you know quite repugnant it's changed out of all recognition now yeah i just challenge you on minor i'd say you've made a major impact from following your journey and what you've done i think the work you're doing is is tremendous and And, you know, just please keep doing it. A question in terms of toolboxes. You know, everyone has skill sets.

24:29And so I'm thinking top of mind here. What's one skill that you would never want to lose knowing that you've got to the top? As you've said, you're at the top of the profession and you were starting from zero again. What's that one skill that you would never want to lose that you've continuously always been working on that's enabled you to get to the top? I think the answer for me, the answer to that is simple, is passion. it's passion it's it's passion to like when i came into the profession i i felt that i'd made the wrong decision because i was so out of place i mean i'm not exaggerating i used to stand outside my pupils chambers in the morning by the river thames summoning up the courage to walk through the door i found it so intimidating but i just knew this is what i wanted to do and that passion So passion to to succeed, passion to do the job and passion in, you know, presenting defenses in individual cases.

25:31So you've asked me what the one skill or quality that I wouldn't want to lose that I feel has driven me forward is. And it is, you know, is passion. It's not intellect. I don't think, you know, obviously you have to be clever to be a barrister. You have to be clever to do your job. But I think as a criminal defense barrister, if you've got passion and a jury sees you've got passion, a judge sees you've got passion, your clients see you've got passion, their families feel that you've got passion, then you're on the road to having a meaningful career. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. Are you frustrated with your current legal management software?

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26:50Now back to the show. I couldn't agree more and passion is everything, isn't it? I feel like I'm passionate about doing this. I'm passionate about building community, passionate about helping people, but you can't hide it. I don't think you can hide the passion. When you really find your true passion, there's nothing that will stop you because, you know, let's speak off the record here there's a lot of shit days you'll have in your career and if you don't have that passion or understanding about why you're doing what you're doing then inevitably you might give up and i feel like you know and and so having that and energy is infectious and you know being and i think also when you bring that passion to your profession your craft whatever it is not just necessarily the law i think you attract the right people as well that come to you that can help you i'm sure you've had tremendous mentors throughout your career maybe oh definitely without doubt without talk about that and the importance maybe of mentorship is there anything you would say on that oh yeah i think mentorship is really crucial it's not always easy time wise to dedicate the sort of time that you want but i mean you know it's it's amazing really how young people you know how how much they they they cherish the opportunity just to speak to you or spend a day with you or whatever it may be it's quite embarrassing you know you get emails you you know, and you'd think that, you know, that you were offering like 20 million pounds just to spend an afternoon watching you at the Old Bailey.

28:09So I think it's very important to do it, you know, when you when you can. It's as I've said, it's not always. And there are also a lot of rules and regulations now about, you know, who you can take to court, whether they have to go through a complex application process and so on. But yes, of course, mentorship is, you know, we should all try and embrace that as something we do when we've had a lot of experience, without doubt, because experience matters. Absolutely. And I want to talk now about sort of the sentencing. We've had a host of barristers on the show over the years from Crystal, Casey.

28:46We've had through to Redline Chambers and a whole host of people come on. And I want to get your thoughts on this as someone who's at the top of the game as well. in terms of the sentencing policy and prison reform in the UK and what changes you would actually like to see maybe in the next few years? Well, the question of prison reform is one that's very close to my heart because I think the state of our prisons is truly, truly, truly shocking and unacceptable. I mean, I've had recent experience of this in a trial I've been doing in Winchester were a defendant of good character. He was on a serious charge.

29:25He's 64 years old. He's never been in trouble before. But on the night before he was due to be tried, he was transferred from Wormer Scrubs Prison to Winchester Prison. He was put in a cell with a drug addict. He was up all night watching TV, talking to himself, just being very disruptive. Throughout the whole trial, my client was in a cell with this person so he barely slept during his own trial he was woken up at five in the morning and brought to court in a little van in a sort of cage type thing not given any breakfast just treated like an animal and that encapsulates the state of the prison system the prison system is a complete shambles the accommodation largely is out of date and inadequate and inappropriate for housing human beings in this century.

30:26Prison staff are not properly trained. Most of them have no interest in rehabilitation. They don't even know what it is. They just lock people up. A good proportion of them were working in Sainsbury's or Tesco's and then decided they wanted to become prison officers. Resources are too limited. Rehabilitation isn't readily available. Reoffending is too high. We operate a system of human dustbin in this country. The prison system just needs completely erasing and we need to start all over again in terms of how many people we send to prison, why we send people to prison and which institutions. You've got mentally disordered offenders, people with personality disorders heavily mixed up with arch criminals.

31:17There's no discrimination in terms of sifting. It's a shambles. It's chaos. And it has to be revisited in a big way. And this government, you know, are not doing anything too seriously. Releasing people after 40 % is just, you know, papering over the cracks. So I feel very strongly about the prison system. And in terms of sentencing in policy generally we send too many people to prison we have a custodial obsession um and we're not creative enough in our in our sentencing options so you know i'm loathe to be too critical because you know i don't like being critical but obviously i have very very strong views on these matters and we want people to share their views and you know thank you thank you for being candid but we also like to feel like we we we give people solutions or suggestions or thoughts for the future so flipping it onto a perhaps more positive lens in terms of change or things could could be do better is there like one or two actionable things that you would like to see that's actually achievable that's just low hanging fruit no well i i i fully understand why you're asking that question because as i was speaking i was thinking i'm not saying anything constructive i think I think, Rob, the starting point within our criminal justice process is to address the question of who we send to prison.

32:49That's the starting point. We have a prison population, which is the biggest in the free world. so i think the government should or whoever the government is should should instigate a consultation and or you know some form of operation targeting the question of who we send to prison there should be much more rigorous guidelines on who we send to prison we should really only be sending people to prison if they are dangerous okay fine if people commit offenses of dishonesty and other types of offences that are not, you know, on the face of it dangerous, there has to be scope for sending those people to prison, but they should become the exception rather than the rule.

33:30At the moment, you know, we're just sending almost everybody who commits any offence which is vaguely serious to prison. Once we start sorting out the prison system and we're drastically reduced prison numbers, and in conjunction, we look much more closely at constructive options to replace prison, which is the second of my proposals, then I think we can start to make progress. But whilst we have a custodial obsession, we're just not going to get anywhere because we're going to be refuelling the commission of crime by triggering anger and frustration amongst a huge number of people who are going to prison, not being educated, not being rehabilitated, coming out and re-offending in a big way.

34:17So the starting point is look again at the concept of imprisonment and frame developments in the criminal justice process around that. Completely agree. And I'm just pausing for thought on that because you put some really good context to it. Access to justice is something we're very passionate about here on the show. What does justice mean to you in a very, well, both narrow and broader sense? What does justice mean? To you. Yeah, I know I keep saying it, but, you know, that raises, you know, really significant issues. You know, for me, justice is a very, very, very wide concept. So I don't think the criminal justice process always throws up justice.