She Breaks the Law: Closing the Gender Gap & Embracing Change with Priya Lele - S9E23

0:00We want to bring the true stories, the ones that people can relate, the ones that would actually inspire people to say, not how does she do it, but actually if she can do it, so can I. If you were to actually start with people, look at the pain points they have or opportunities that actually excite them, but then look at the way they work and the processes they follow and then think about whether Gen.AI could indeed be a solution. So that would be the classic human-centered design way of working. We want to share as different stories as possible, because as I said earlier, there's no one way to leadership.

0:55Priya Lele:in London, she has reshaped how legal services are delivered across continents. Priya is also the proud co-founder and chair of She Breaks the Law, a growing global community of 4 ,000 women collaborating to innovate the legal ecosystem. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Priya. Thank you so much for having me here, Rob. I'm delighted. It's a pleasure and I'm delighted we've been able to make this happen over many, many years of planning and trying. And before we get into your incredible journey and the amazing work you're doing in and around the legal community we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the podcast which is on the scale of one to ten ten being very real what would you rate the tv series suits in terms of its reality of the law if you've seen it on the scale of one to ten i have seen it i've seen it a couple of times and i reckon i would say two i think i'm being generous yeah That's a confident and generous two.

1:55Priya Lele:And need you say any more because we've got a lot to get through today. And I think through that tone and the way you delivered it, you justified your two. So to begin with, Priya, would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about your career journey and background? Of course, I'd be delighted to. So my background, I'm a corporate finance lawyer, and I began my journey many moons ago in India as a corporate finance associate. very briefly before I moved to the UK to do my master's from Cambridge. And following my NLM, I actually even did a short stint at the university itself as a research fellow, a little known fact, I suppose, before I started my career in the city.

2:34I was at Ashurst. I was a senior associate, again, mainly focused on private M &A, but also did a few bumpy takeovers and listed of some companies on the AIM market back in the day. I then moved to the knowledge management, and I often describe my career journey, Rob, as a combination of serendipity and design, if you will. So my move into knowledge management wasn't really something I designed. But, you see, when I came back from attendee leave, this was in 2009, a year after the financial debacle, and the aftermath was still sort of unfolding, if you will. As you can imagine, as a senior associate in M &A, in London, it was really hard to get business.

3:16So I just perceived myself with knowledge management, business management tasks, and what have you. And then the next thing you know, serendipitiously, one of the game directors was about to go on maternity leave, and the managing partner turned to me. So that's how I went into the knowledge management. But then to cut long story short, I realized that was also the time when I could start looking at things differently. It was the time when the entire industry was getting our heads around the more for less challenge and realizing that this wasn't something that we were going to go back to. We had to fundamentally change how we were doing things.

3:51So this was now by that time I was at BLP or BCLP, which is when I officially moved from knowledge management into innovation roles. So I guess my non-traditional legal role journey began properly at BLP. I was leading the innovation and process design initiative there. We mapped out hundreds of processes and we were looking at doing things differently using technology, the right resources, project management tools and what have you. That's also the time when, again, serendipitously, I suppose, my journey into client consulting began. And so once we were doing this all internally for our own legal services and how we were delivering it to our clients and how our lawyers were working, clients got a whiff of it and they loved what we were doing.

4:39So they were like, can you come and help us with our legal department and help us become more strategic, articulate our value to the business and help us become more efficient on our own transformation journey. So we set up a consulting business actually as part of BLP's offering. I then got headed into HSEF, Rubbers with Three Hills in London. And I was there for nearly seven years. So I guess majority of my career at HSEF and again, through different roles, both looking at things internally first on efficiency and on legal ops and legal tech, but then doing a lot of client consulting work, working with GCs, working with in-house teams.

5:18My last road was, I was the client solutions legal operations lead for UK, US and India. I recently moved to Sydney, I say recently, it's been nearly four years now. But I moved to Sydney as the head of legal transformation at a regional firm. And I got headhunted into Big Four or EY, which was where my last role and there I say my last full-time role was a director of legal transform and operate. Again, working with GCs and in-house teams on their transformation journeys. But as of March 2025, I'm an independent consultant and I focus a lot on my role at Sheep Xtero.

5:54Priya Lele:and what a illustrious career and so many great things that you you've been able to do and one thing i would say is you're early you know you're always early to where the forefront of innovation and change is happening and that's what i've always admired from afar in terms of looking at your journey you touched on legal services there i want to to go a little bit deeper because you've worked with some of the world's biggest law firms you've just mentioned obviously corporate legal departments what's been the biggest shift you've seen in how legal services are delivered today to perhaps when you first started out?

6:23Wow, that's a great question and I'm going to give away my age here. I started nearly a quarter of a century ago, yeah, 2001. It'll be 25 years next year and I can tell you for sure that one of the things that's fundamentally changed, I believe in so many years, is probably the best way to describe it is how the legal ecosystem has evolve. And as a profession, we've become more mature in how we deliver services and the consumers have become more mature in how they consume services. So whether that be, obviously, through the advancement of technology or process approaches, led approaches or the advancement of ALSPs, but it's fundamentally changed today.

7:07Back in the day when I qualified, legal services were are still exclusively the domain of qualified lawyers working in very traditional ways. And actually coming out of law school back in the day, we didn't even have a private practice versus in-house option. I think it was pretty much expected to go private practice first, even before you took in-house option. Whereas as a result of this evolution and maturity of a profession, today there are so many more career paths available and there are so many allied professionals that work hand in glove with law. And I think that's the most fundamental change.

7:43Priya Lele:And it's exciting, isn't it? I think back to a lot of our listeners will know, obviously, why I do this. My late grandfather ran his own law firm in the 1950s, very traditional and scaled that out. And all the things that you see today just didn't exist. But that's the, you know, if you have the growth mindset, embrace, speak to people like yourself, around people that are curious, innovating, then there's so many opportunities ahead of you. So let's go on to transformation then, because you're at the forefront of transforming legal service delivery with AI and automation. Of course, we have to talk about these things in the world that we live today.

8:12Priya Lele:So can you share an example of a successful project and what makes it so transformational in your view? Sure. I'll share another example, actually. We'll come to Jani later, I'm sure, but let me share an early example. This was back in the mid-2010s and we were looking at redesigning the way we were delivering M &A to our clients. and in particular we were looking at how cross-border M &A could be done more effectively, more efficiently, more collaboratively. So we created what we used to call these the deal hubs and the way I would describe it is like imagine that there's like an app on your phone except it wasn't on your phone but essentially a single place where you could go in, you could create your project, you could upload all your documents, you could start your dv process, you could allocate it, you know, you could create workflows, and you could make sure that you're actually collaborating in real time, because these were collaborative technology platforms, so you could all work wherever you are, irrespective of where you are in the world, at what time zone, you don't have to worry about, you know, version control, you don't have to block each other's email inboxes with multiple emails and things like that.

9:26And also early generation AI, which was back then very much machine learning or second generation AI, but essentially helping them to segregate, to go in there in the DD room and really look at and segregating the things, tagging things, making sure that workflows are working, et cetera, which was quite revolutionary at the time, right? It now sounds very basic, but it was quite revolutionary at the time. And also we had automated the generation of SBA and the suite of documents that go with it. So it was really like a quite a different way of working. In my view, the thing that made it transformative or revolutionary isn't so much that we were using new technologies and stitched them all together or what have you.

10:12It was how it fundamentally changed how oils were working and how it made them work better. So for me, something is transformative or reformative if it is actually enhancing the way people are working. So not only were they saving times, reducing email traffics and what have you, but they were actually working in better ways and seamlessly across jurisdictions.

10:37Priya Lele:Yeah. And, you know, talking seamlessly across time zones and jurisdictions, it's evening for you, it's morning for us here. And I think you give a great example there, though, as well. You talk about, you know, we talk a lot about tech for good on the show in terms of productivity, efficiency, but also in terms of legal professionals, you know, generally who embrace technology. This is good in terms of reducing the overall well-being stress and, you know, the long hours and things that have generally been a real problem within the profession for year on year. But obviously, you know, with technology, we're for it.

11:04Priya Lele:It's amazing. But we still advocate for the human side as well. And, you know, again, our listeners will be sick and tired of me talking about it's not B2B, B2C anymore. It's H2H. It's human to human connection. And you talk a lot around human centred design, particularly in legal innovation. So for our listeners who might be less familiar with this, what does it actually mean and why is it important? Oh, it's so close to my heart. And I know it's close to your heart as well. So thanks for bringing that up. Human-centered or design thinking principles, put simply, are essentially a very powerful problem-solving methodology that put humans at the center of the entire process.

11:47in terms of very briefly the history. It obviously came from the world of physical design and often the iconic Apple mouse has given us an early example of using human-centered design to create something that was quite revolutionary and different at the time. And IDEO is often credited with starting the new generation of design thinkers, if you will. And of course, in terms of legal, the Stanford Legal Design Lab is quite a great organization and initiative. But in legal innovation in particular, how it helps and how I've used it over the years is that you could literally apply this methodology, this way of thinking, this mindset to create solutions that are new and evolving, to create solutions that because you are involving humans or users from the process of identifying the problem through identifying or ideating solutions through to prototyping and then creating and actually delivering, you're creating something that sticks.

12:53Quite often the classic people process technology formula sounds more cliche than it is. And people look at it just the other way around. So talking about Gen AI, most often people would say, right, we need to do something with Gen AI. Then they'll consider it right. So what are the use cases that we could apply? And then lastly, they consider now how is this going to impact people? Little wonder that it doesn't stick. If you were to actually start with people, look at the pain points they have or opportunities that actually excite them, but then look at the way they work and the processes they follow and then think about whether Gen AI could indeed be a solution.

13:30So that would be the classic sort of human-centered design way of working. They would get far better results.

13:36Priya Lele:And it's been talked about before, you know, PI is just as important as AI, that people intelligent, understanding what's important to the individuals and working that way. And also it just helps with adoption. It helps with them feeling seen, heard, all of the great things. So let's stick with worldwide legal innovation because it's only going in one direction. You've led that across UK, Australia and beyond. Does legal innovation then differ from region to region? And what lessons have you learned from working across these different areas? I'm going to answer the latter bit first and then come back to the first bit, if you will.

14:11Okay, go for it. What I've learned from leading transformation and innovation in different parts of the world is actually two things. First and foremost, and this shouldn't come as a surprise, but innovation is a journey. It's a continuum and there's no one size fits all because what could be innovative to one organization could be business as usual to another, right? So that's my first thing. And second thing is, because it is so based on an organization's individual journey and depends on where they are, it's less to do with regional nuances than to do with where that particular organization is.

14:50And it's factors like whether they have the resources, whether they have the buy-in, whether the size, the organizational culture, the agility required. That matters more to the success of the innovation initiative that you're leading rather than the region where they belong. That said, coming to your first bit, whether there are activity differences, I hate to make blanket or general comments. However, there are obviously some macro level trends or differences, right, we see in regions. So classically, for instance, in the US, we know that corporate legal departments and legal operations, in particular, large legal departments are ahead of the curve.

15:35Simply because they have the size, they have the bandwidth, they've been doing this for an all time. So they're definitely ahead of the curve and they're more innovative than, let's say, their counterparts in law firms. Whereas traditionally in the U.S., sorry, in the U.K. and Australia, for obvious reasons, for the market pressures, the market size, the law firms have had to evolve and become more innovative. And often legal departments actually look to law firms for advice on innovation than they would in the U.S., right? Because of the Silicon Valley and the VC investments, we see a lot of investment there and huge legal tech ecosystem.

16:11UK is quite unique and very aggressive as well because with initiatives like Law Tech UK, with initiatives like Innovate UK, we see a lot of investment being driven in legal tech, which is really good. That way, Australia is lagging behind. I don't see that level of support here. and obviously it's a very small market. Having said that, one of the reasons that I was actually driven to move to Australia, beyond the weather, of course, was that I honestly believe that given the size of the market and things, I believe that the legal tech and innovation ecosystem here punches about its weight, so to speak.

16:54And there are a lot of household names today, I can say within legal at least, that actually originated from Australia or New Zealand and they're now global. So I guess each of the regions have their strengths and weaknesses. And it's just been a, I consider myself extremely lucky, as you were saying at the initial, you know, stage of my interview that in my career, I've had the opportunity to work across continents, across countries and across different sizes of organizations. I've just been lucky, I suppose.

17:23Priya Lele:Yeah. And one thing you touched on there was ecosystems, right? And I want to kind of go a bit deeper on that, because as you said, you've had these roles at large firms, corporations, you know, including building sort of really innovative ecosystems. So to maybe help our listeners who might be thinking about this or wanted to get more integrated, how do you create an environment where there are things that actually change and thrive? I think for me, that begins with, first of all, acknowledging that change is hard, right? Yeah. Let's not kid ourselves about it. I mean, as human beings, we actually resist change.

17:56And I know lawyers get a lot of, you know, bad words about being not innovative or not change it out. I don't think that's anything particularly unique about law. I think change is hard. So first and foremost, I think it starts from acknowledging where people are and sort of, you know, baselining, so to speak, where people are. This helps with a couple of things. First of all, it helps with articulating where you are and where you want to get to. And it also helps later on in terms of majoring impact and showing impact. So it's very important to acknowledge where you are and start your journey there.

18:34Then I'd say, define the purpose. I'm a huge fan of Simon Sinek, of course, but define your why. Why do you want to change? And make sure that you communicate that across the stakeholders and you get the buy-in. Quite often what I see is that change is led by the top level, the execs, and of course they want to change, but it's not often communicated enough or not often defined enough with the people that it actually impacts. And that's what creates friction. So this goes back to the human design or human-centric approach. If you get the buy-in from the grassroots, it's going to be impacted. I think you get better results.

19:16so having defined your baseline having defined your purpose the next thing i would say is you need to find your champions and your earlier doctors i call them the walking talking billboards yes i love that because storytelling works right storytelling works as human beings we're driven by that and what better than to get another human being who are like them who they can relate to associate to telling them how effective it has been either for themselves or their clients and my last tip and i think you're going to like that as well if you like my walking talking billboard is i call this the magic key and that is your principle of your key stakeholders now in the case of law firm lawyers because i've worked with both right so in the case of law firm lawyers it's your clients in the case of corporate departments it's your c-suite or your business stakeholders.

20:08I call them the magic key because, you know, the classic, the way to an attorney's heart is through their client is absolutely true. So the minute you can get them involved in your innovation or change initiative, I have seen the stubborn of the people, the stubborn of the lawyers getting involved.

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21:13Priya Lele:Terms and conditions apply. Now back to the show. What you're talking to is what we talk a lot about and where a lot of people come from, particularly at the starting point about that why. And not sort of wishy-washy, but really asking those hard questions. What are you trying to do? And then I always, you know, facts tell, but stories sell. I think if you can really articulate the story and get that and also drive a bit of emotion because that also connects and you connect with people and it fosters an energy and inputs go into this ecosystem. It keeps thriving. And as you rightly say, get those key people of influence, those magic, magic points.

21:44Priya Lele:And you'll continue to go. Love it. Love it. Real wisdom there. OK, I want to talk now about something I know you're very passionate about as well, which is she breaks the law. So you're a passionate advocate for all things diversity and inclusion. This was established on International Women's Day, I believe, in 2019. And it's grown into a huge global network of 4 ,000 plus women. What inspired you to launch it? Gosh, such a great question. You know how I told my background and my journey in law? What I didn't mention is it's been a bit paradoxical. So I come from a legal family. My grandfather, my lawyer, my sorry, father, and even my mother later on was a lawyer.

22:23And yet, coming from a legal family, I had to fight my way into law school. My father, a successful lawyer himself, was dead opposed. It came from a very good place, of course. He loved me to bits. The reason he didn't want me to take up law as a profession is because he said, and I

22:43Priya Lele:believe he genuinely believed, that law was not a women-friendly profession. I was obviously a rebel. I got my way. I got my way into law school. But I guess somewhere that desire was always there to prove my dad wrong and to help create law become a more woman-friendly profession. And to be honest, he wasn't very far off. I mean, this was the 90s and I was born in late 70s. And this was India and litigation. And he was probably not that far off. And he said it wasn't really a woman-friendly profession. but even in my own career journey as I you know charted my own path and I moved from countries and continents and I moved from traditional legal practice into you know innovation rules or I you know moved in different environments I often felt alone I even felt like an outsider so I guess She Breaks the Law came from this desire to create a community where everybody belonged where all women from diverse backgrounds could come together and share authentically, learn from each other and develop together.

23:47It was about breaking those barriers but not alone together. And then it was just a chance meeting, to be honest, at the end of an innovation conference in London. I happened to meet my co-founders and share our views and we just clicked, so to speak. So we started She Breaks It All with two main purposes. One was to try and break down barriers and silos because often there are just lawyers and not even in our profession, lawyers and non-lawyers, and we hate that, obviously. We need all to work together. There are also organizations that are competitive. There's not much collaboration. So we wanted to break down silos between disciplines, between organizations, between geographies.

24:31And the second was we wanted to shine a light on relatable role models. Often, especially when it comes to women leadership in law, the narrative tends to be quite negative. Obviously, people look at the leadership level in law firms, of inequity positions in particular, which is quite awful, frankly. But that just tells one part of the story. We believe that leadership is in more than one forms and we want to shine a light on all forms of leadership. So that's how she braced it all.

25:03Priya Lele:I love the origin of so many things that I've been told. Thinks back to actually launching a Legally Speaking podcast in terms of no one's going to be interested in legal podcast way back when when we started or it's not possible to launch a podcast or it's not the right thing to be doing and you know to your father to say something to you and it kind of sparked something in you and it's kind of driven you forward to be the change so if you can't see it you need to go out there and be the change and you know again listeners will be very familiar with me talking about we is greater than me and if you want to go fast obviously go along alone but if you want to go further obviously you need to go together I think you're doing a great job of that with um she breaks the law I want to go on to she shares now because this is a part of your community it's a signature initiative i believe so would you mind telling us a little bit more about it of course and before i do that though just something very similar to what you said there are a couple of philosophies or mottos i believe that have really uh inspired me and my own journey which is like you say the go far and fast bid the other thing is you know you can do so little alone and you can do so much together uh holland keller's you know um well and and she shares i guess is is all about we rise we're lifting others so that's another one which is very close to my heart and yes she shares is one of our signature initiatives and it's actually one of the the one that's most closest to to my heart because we have number of things the network obviously which is she connects um she develops we do a lot of skills-based um programs and trainings as well but she shares is an initiative where we it's all about that you know shining a light on relatable role model and we purposely look to bring those stories to light that are both well known but probably known in a different way and also unknown what i mean is often we see successful women and we we think about them like wow i have no idea how she does it like amazing three children three businesses it's impossible i can never do it right and and that's often not the truth the truth is she's just about had as messy if not messier life as you have, but she's stuck around somehow.

27:04She's been resilient. She's either found mentors or she's done something differently. So we want to bring not the airbrushed version, but we want to bring the true stories, the ones that people can relate, the ones that would actually inspire people to say, not how does she do it, but actually if she can do it, so can I. So that's what she shares is all about. And this year, for instance, for our In That Women's Day initiative, we asked for nominations and we're recognizing six changemakers and again, getting them to share their stories and they come from such diverse backgrounds you know one is a legal tech founder in india another is a is a community builder in the uk and yet somebody else is is is one that created a movement within a law firm in the us so we we want to share as different stories as possible because as i said earlier there's no one way to leadership no and it's