The Legacy Lawyers Leave: Rethinking Loss, Grief & Family Past Paperwork - Dr Kimberly Harms - S9E21

0:00You don't want to leave a legacy of confusion. You don't want to leave a legacy of conflict. You want to leave your family intact. Many, many of us are uncomfortable talking about death with our families or with attorneys. It's that discomfort. We don't like to tell our families that we're going to die. We don't like to think about a time after we die. We have to get over that discomfort. So it's procrastination, expense, discomfort, I think are the main barriers. Just think of it as your legacy of love. That's what end of life planning is. It's a legacy of love and understand that. I think that's the most important thing you can do.

0:33On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by the wonderful Dr. Kimberly Harms. Dr. Harms is an international speaker with 30 years of dental grief, conflict, and transition management experience. She is an award-winning, best-selling author, was the first woman president of the Minnesota Dental Association and has served as the national spokesperson for the American Dental Association for 21 years. Dr. Harms is passionate about challenging societal norms surrounding death and end-of-life planning. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Kim. Thank you. Thank you so much, Rob.

1:08Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into all the amazing work that you're doing, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series suits in terms of its reality of the law, if you've seen it? Well, I've only seen it once or twice. And all I really know about it is that my daughters, who are both attorneys, love it. And there are very attractive people. So I think that when it comes to just basic attractiveness of the people, probably not in the realm of reality.

1:45But I really can't speak about the legal things, but I would ask my daughters. They love the show, so I could ask them. There you go. Fair comment. And with that, we'll give it an informal zero and move swiftly on to talk more about you and your journey. So to begin with, do you mind telling our listeners about your background and career journey? Yes. Well, technically, I'm a dentist. I practiced dentistry for 30 years. I was a national spokesperson for the American Dental Association. I was president of the, in fact, the first woman president of the Minnesota Dental Association. so I've been very active in dentistry.

2:20I have my personal life. I've lost my mother and son to suicide, also my nephew, and I lost my husband, so I'm a widow. And what's happened now, I also lost my ability to practice because I have thalidomide has affected one hand, and my good hand went out after 30 years of practice. I had nerve damage in it, so I had to stop practicing. And so I've had to re-identify myself many, many times. Now that I'm a widow, I'm all alone. I've sitting here between menopause and death, and I've got to figure out what to do during this time. So I started writing books about navigating life as a widow, also about what we need to do to graduate from life with honors.

2:59I see death is on one side of that continuum, and I really work with people to help them redefine death. What is death? I think it's graduating. We're graduating your life right and prepare for it so living well now so that you can die with honors and have your family uh uh emotionally healthy when you go and and thank you for sharing that and and giving us a really good rich overview and you know i really admire everything that you've done and i just want to kind of go back to your career as a dentist because you spent as you said 30 years um you you know, practicing, servicing as the national spokesperson for the American Dental Association for 21 years.

3:45So tell us more about that. And how did your sort of career get started as a dentist to where it's obviously gone to today? Well, the reason I became a spokesperson and also president is that I have also a public health background. I was commissioned the National Health Service. And so we, because I had a public health background, legislative issues that occur many times are done in public health speak. You know, public health and private health are very different. So I could speak both languages basically and that's kind of what brought me to become a national spokesperson. But what it also taught me is how to deal with a crisis situation.

4:18When a crisis was occurring, especially around the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s, there was really a crisis about how do we treat AIDS patients? Can we treat them safely? Can they come to the dentist safely? All those issues helped me to learn how to deal with a crisis and how to learn how to manage an issue that was difficult or controversial. And so it was really a great opportunity for me to learn those things. And I use that in my family life as well. You have to remain calm in the face of adversity. If someone's trying to trip you up, you have to remain calm, which also works with clients, your lawyers that are audience, but with your family as well.

4:56My kids often tell me that they hated it when I would answer their accusations or when they were teenagers and they were getting a little bit upset with me, I could stay calm. So I think that that was probably the best thing I learned from my time as a spokesperson. Thank you for sharing that, Kim. And I guess as a end of life planning expert, you really do help people understand the importance of showing love to their families by setting them up with obviously a legacy plan. So could you explain to our listeners what end of life planning and legacy planning actually is? Yes, I focus on building emotional wealth and the emotional legacy that you leave behind.

5:37And I think there are four steps to that. The first one is you gotta have, get your affairs in order. You gotta have all your documents in one place so your family's not, when they're going through the grief of your loss, you don't have to go and find all your documents or no documents. Get them all in order in one place. All my, everything I have, my titles of my car, my will, everything is in one binder so that it can find it. That prevents a lot of stress afterwards. Also a lot of conflict. 50 % of people go through conflicts around a death. And it might just be, did they die in a hospital or hospice?

6:08So get your affairs in order, have your health care directive there, have everything in one place. That's a first step. Second one is get your legacy organized. What is the legacy you're going to leave behind? Everyone can leave love. People need to feel loved. They need to feel accepted. Your family needs to know you're proud of them. In my case, because of the suicides, resilience is a big legacy I want to leave behind to my children and my grandchildren. How do you get through tough times? So define your legacy and take steps to leave a good legacy behind. Number three is talk about what happens after you die.

6:40Have a good discussion with your family. They need to know that they're going to grieve. Grieve is normal, but they're going to survive it. And that you want them to live their life fully and you want them to be happy after you die. You want them to live a full life and to flourish. And then the last thing is get your emotional affairs in order. Forgive now. Reconcile while you can. And apologize if you need to. Get those things in order now. It's important to do it now. And I think when you do those things, you have a great chance of leaving your family with a solid emotional legacy. Because the important thing is that your family stays together after you die.

7:21You don't want to leave a legacy of confusion. you don't want to leave a legacy of conflict you want to leave your family intact and that's what an emotional legacy is yeah and i i really sort of resonate with with that and you know i feel like particularly people in busy professions such as the law that are obviously so busy going out there doing everything you know actually having these affairs in order and ensuring like you say it's as smooth as possible probably not the right words that i'm saying i think is really important so And that's why we were really keen to hold the conversation today, given obviously you've had so many life experiences and doing so much to help people so they can ultimately, hopefully, you know, deliver that legacy, which, you know, to me is very important.

8:05So let's talk about the, you know, experiencing of loss. You know, you've been open about the losses you've experienced. How did your own experience shape your approach to end of life planning? Well, you know, I've been down in the bottom of that grief pit, just kind of sucking up the mud. And I had something happen to me, especially after the death of our son. Our son was a brilliant engineering student at Columbia. He was on top of the world. He was a jazz pianist, was in the jazz program there. He'd been elected to student government. Everything was going his way. And he was on top of the world when he came home for Christmas.

8:40And then he went back to school, and his girlfriend broke up with him. and he was gone at 45 minutes. That impulsive 19-year-old brain just broke. And so you can imagine our family was just completely destroyed by that. And I had something happen to me that really helped. I was walking out of my dental office one day, and you're trying to go to work. You're in the zombie phase. You're like dead on the inside. You're trying to look like you're normal on the outside. You're trying to keep going. And my husband's cousin came up to me, And he was wagging his finger and he came up to me and he wagged his finger in my face.

9:16And he said, don't you ever let your remaining children feel that they are not enough. Don't you do that to them. And that made me realize I wasn't in that pit by myself. When I was in that pit, I was dragging everyone down with me. And getting over grief, processing the grief is a very, very difficult thing. It sometimes takes years. But I was determined at that point that I was going to fight and kick and scream and claw my way out of that pit. And it's not easy. It takes some time. But eventually, with that goal in mind, because I think you need a goal, I was able to get out of that pit and live fully in the present.

9:54Now I've got six grandchildren that I need to enjoy, and I can live my life without that shroud. But it took work. It's been 15 years. So, I mean, it's taken a long time. probably took me five to six years after my son died. And then my husband, you know, I had to go right back into it again. And I had to realize I'm still here. And if I'm still here, I still have a purpose. And so finding that purpose and focusing on your goal of getting out of that pit, don't wallow in it because you can stay there forever if you allow yourself to. And it takes time. But I think it's so important, not only for you, but for everybody around you.

10:31And that's what I'd like to encourage your listeners to understand if they're in that grief pit to just fight, fight, fight to get out of it. Yeah, no, really, really tough, you know, but in, you know, helpful words given, you know, everything that you have been through. I want to talk about the importance now of going deeper when you talk about setting up a legacy plan. You know, talk us through how you actually assist families in setting up a comprehensive legacy plan. Well, I wrote a book called Are You Ready? How to Build a Legacy to Die For. And the first part of it is building your legacy, all the legacies you can leave, education, faith, art.

11:13There's so many legacies. Love, of course, is the main one. So focus on those important legacies you're leaving behind and leave them intentionally. Second part is you have to understand that you're going to die. We're all going to die. And we have to focus on the fact that, okay, at some point we need to be ready for that. So that's where we need to get all of our affairs in order. Certainly the wills and all the things that you do legally need to be there. Your health care directive, your will. Letter of intent, I think, is very important because you need, if you've got something that's maybe a little bit different, you need to explain why you're doing it.

11:45And that will prevent people from thinking that other members, family members might have had untoward influence if maybe somebody gets a little more than the others. have a letter of intent, explain why you're doing things. But then I think the other part of the legacy is I recommend a grateful but not yet dead tour, which is going out and saying you're thankful for people that are out there that have helped you throughout your life. You know, make sure people know that you're grateful for who you are, for who they were and what they've done for you. And I also recommend leaving legacy letters.

12:16You know, the first Valentine, the most important Valentine was delivered after St. Valentine's death. So it was a posthumous Valentine. And I think we need to leave posthumous Valentine's. I have in my legacy book, I've got Valentine's for all of my family members, my son-in-laws, my grandkids. I have letters. I tell them how much I love them, how grateful I am for them. And then I send little Valentine's. So if they don't remember that I love them, when they see that I put all my stuff together in that one manual, the titles and everything to my car, everything they're going to need, they will remember how much I love them when they get those Valentines.

12:46So I'm just making sure they understand that they were valuable, they were loved, and I was grateful that they were in my life. And I think that is one of the most important things you could do to build an emotional legacy. You can make videotapes, legacy tapes, talk about your family, talk about your background. Books are fabulous. My daughter did a great book of my husband. She had him record kind of his life history, and she made a book out of it. There's so many things you can do to leave that legacy behind. But most importantly, the people that you leave behind need to have the tools to flourish after you're gone even when you're not there and that's a fabulous legacy yeah i mean just really really well said and you know that that sheer attitude of gratitude that you're showing and you know you're taking the time aren't you to to show people that you you cared and genuinely loved them with those with all those things that you're putting together and yeah i just think it's it's wonderful actually um okay let's talk more about sort of estate planning them because many people avoid the conversation about that because it can be quite uncomfortable.

13:50So how can lawyers, attorneys help their clients perhaps overcome this? I think it's important. One of the things is one of the reasons that we do this is we're in a death-denying culture, right? We kind of sometimes we think that if we plan for our estate, it's going to, we're going to die sooner. You know, we're not, it's not going affect your death. They're going to die anyway. It's not going to affect your death. So, but what it does do is it shows your love for your family, because when you don't plan, somebody else gets to plan and they, you know, the state gets to plan and that might not be what your wishes are.

14:23And it, and it causes more expensive, obviously, but also it causes dissension in the family. I mean, as, as lawyers, I mean, I, I'm a dentist and I sure know many, many families that have been destroyed because of failure to plan. And so we need to think of that. We need to think of planning our estate as a show of love for our family members and an acknowledgement that we are going to die, but we want to graduate with honors. We want to graduate with things prepared so that our family knows that we care about them and we love them. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio, leaders in legal tech and the team behind one of the most exciting AI launches this summer.

15:04Clio Duo is arriving this summer and it's already creating a stir. Built right into Clio Manage, Duo uses AI to help you draft emails, capture time, summarize documents automatically. It's smart, seamless and designed to save you hours every week. Find out more and see what Clio Duo can do for your firm at clio.com forward slash UK. Now back to the show. It sounds really straight forward. But I think like you say, you know, I think we need to have these conversations and to let people know that, you know, we need to be open. So we can ensure that these legacies do live on. And let to that, then let's get into some of the emotional roadblocks, because what are some of the most common ones that families face when making end of life decisions?

15:50Well, the first one is failure to acknowledge you're going to die. That's, I think, the number one. Second one is they think it's going to be expensive. And it's more expensive not to do it for your family. Okay, so it doesn't make any sense. But they think, oh, I don't want to spend the money on the lawyer right now. And it's a procrastination, really. And again, we don't like to think about our death. And so now we're not going to spend money to think about our death. I mean, that whole situation gets in there. But again, far more expensive to wait. And you have to think about it as like prevention.

16:22I'm a dentist. It's a lot less expensive to prevent problems from happening. You have to pay some money up front to prevent problems from happening, but it's far less expensive to do that same thing when it comes to estate planning. This is a preventive tool. You want to prevent conflict in your family. So think about it that way. The third one is that when many, many of us are uncomfortable talking about death with our families or with attorneys, It's that discomfort. And we don't like to tell our families that we're going to die. We don't like to think about a time after we die and we have to get over that discomfort.

17:00So it's procrastination, expense, discomfort, I think are the main barriers to having people do this. Yeah, no. And again, it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it? And that's why sort of educating and hopefully changing the narrative with all the work that you're doing will help. And I guess to that end, then, how can lawyers guide families through the emotional aspects of estate planning to ensure harmony and unity during these challenging times? Because as you've said, you've seen this has broken up lots of families. Absolutely. I think that, first of all, presenting estate planning as an act of love for your family is probably one of the biggest things.

17:40Also talking to them, I have a co-hosting a podcast called Rethinking Death.Life, that we have to think about our death. We have to come to terms with our death. That's a tough one for lawyers to talk about. It's tough for doctors. We have podcasts about doctors who can't talk about death. So it's really hard for lawyers to talk about it. But I think if they position it as an act of love for their families and a way to prevent confusion and conflict, because for me, I've got two daughters, two surviving daughters, and the worst thing for me would be for them to have a conflict over my estate. I mean, to fight because they didn't get grandma's pie pan, you know, pie pan or whatever.

18:21I mean, they fight over the most ridiculous things. But again, that combination of grief that they're already going through and conflict is a bad one. So let's take care of that now. Let's have the discussion now before the grief. Let's prepare your families now before you die, because it is an act of love for your families. Yeah, I love the way that you frame that. And I guess, you know, a big part of this must also be emotional intelligence. So, you know, how can lawyers, you know, who often perhaps focus on the technical and legal aspects of estate planning, you know, you advocate for a more compassionate approach.

18:55So how can lawyers incorporate emotional intelligence into their practice? I think to understand the discomfort and to present, I think that when you present it as legacy planning rather than estate, I think legacy has a different term. And also to change the word legacy to that emotional part. Let them know it's not just the money, it's the emotional legacy. And if you can work the emotional part into the estate planning part, when you're giving, for instance, when you're giving presentations, I've been, you know, some presentations made by attorneys about estate planning. And they basically just talk about the money many times, the ones that I've been to.

19:32So I'm sure there's many out there that are doing this emotional work now. But the ones that I've been to, it's all about the money, right? And that is important. But many people my age think, well, you know, I'm just, I'm going to leave them money. They can manage it. I'm just going to leave the money. They can work it all out later. And they're not thinking that that's difficult thing to do and might cause conflict. So I think bringing up when they're making the presentations, the estate planning presentations, bringing up the emotional component and the love that they're showing to their family as part of that estate planning presentation, and then talk about leaving a legacy, for instance, the legacy letters, the legacy videos, I mean, kind of incorporate that touchy-feely stuff into their estate planning presentations, and I think you'll get a lot more people in there, and there are many, many books out there that will help with that.

20:22Yeah, no, absolutely. And I guess we should talk about your book then on that note. You know, Are You Ready? How to Build a Leggy to Die for, was the number one bestseller on Amazon. Love it. Yep, love it. And Barnes & Noble. So it was also named one of the most inspirational books for 2024 by Pacific Book Awards. So what do you hope for readers to learn from diving into your book? I really, my mission. Okay, my mission as a widowed, you know, survivor, losing a son, losing mother with all the things I've been through. My mission is for people to understand that everything that we go through, everything that we go through is completely useless unless we can pass on what we've learned.

21:02And so I'd like for people to quantify in their brains all the things that they've learned in their life and find ways to subtly pass that on to the next generation. because we can help make, as one generation, we can help make the other generation stronger. And so doing it, the first part of the book is on building legacies. There's 15 different legacies, lots of stories, people from many cultures. My favorite is Rwanda. Rwanda, when you talk about resilience, I have 65 libraries in Rwanda, and they are the resilience and forgiveness experts. The second part is on death and dying. We need to come to terms with death is something that's gonna happen to all of us.

21:40We can't escape it. And let's come to terms with it. think of it as a graduation. We talk about how people perceive death and it's very different across the world. And then the last part is that list, everything you need to know, the list of all the things you need to get together, to put together in that legacy binder, including legacy letters, legacy love letters, along with the titles of your car and your healthcare directive and all of those things. So it's a really, it's a comprehensive book on what we need to do before we die. Yeah, no, and I highly recommend folks go and check that out.

22:11And you touched on it there, but I want to talk a little bit more about the libraries because you, you know, co-founded 65, I think, Eric Harms Memorial Libraries throughout Rwanda. So, you know, how did the initiative come about and what impact has it had? Oh my gosh. There's a, when I was, I was, was a grief counselor and one of the things I learned during that time is it's called warden's tasks, tasks of mourning. So when you're going through grief, the things you need to do to get through the grief, and I have that in the book to include in some of the letters to help people get through grief.

22:42The first one is accepting the law. So accepting when my son died, very, very difficult thing. Secondly is processing the grief, which can take a long time. Everyone's different with that. Third one is coming to terms with your new reality. And then the last one is where the libraries come in. And that is finding a spot, finding a way to honor that loved one in your heart. Now, I'm a little bit of an overachiever. You don't have to do 65 libraries in Rwanda. You could just come to terms in your own heart. You don't even, you know, you don't need a bench. You just need to come to terms. But that has really helped me to come to terms with the death of my son and now my husband.

23:16My son loved libraries. He loved, he was a Latin scholar. He just loved classical literature. And I had a friend who was on the Board of Books for Africa. And after Eric died, she said, you know, why don't we do a library, a memorial library in Rwanda? Because Rwanda is the symbol to me of resilience and forgiveness. When you take a look at the genocide, they have, they're just the most amazing people and the best grief counselors in the world. Because we started doing libraries in Rwanda. We started with seven. And now we have 65, including four law libraries, comprehensive law libraries, donated by Thomson Reuters for the lawyers in Rwanda.

23:54And if any of your listeners are attached to any African countries, you can get a donated law library donated to that country for a minimal amount of money. It's just amazing that Thompson Reuters does this. And it really gave me, first of all, they're the best grief counselors. They embraced me over my grief, yet they had lost their entire families. I have a group of women who were intentionally, you know, infected with AIDS, you know, during the genocide. And some of them even had children. You can imagine the horror that these people went through. yet they have learned to forgive, to reconcile, because they wanted their children to have a better life than them.

24:37And so these 65 libraries are serving, you know, 350 ,000 books all over the country and computers. And it is a joy of my life to be able to go there and visit these libraries and visit the people that it's impacted. And I feel then that, you know, it's my son's legacy. And it gives me great joy to provide a legacy for him. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, And the work you're doing is incredible. And I guess given your background in dentistry and leadership, how have you found any connections between health care, legal planning, and end-of-life discussions? Well, I think they coincide, especially as we get older.