Thriving in Law: Top Global Managing Partner Emily Monastiriotis’ Insights & What Comes Next - S9E38

0:00You cannot be in a position of leadership unless you have integrity. We were the first law firm to acquire a regulated legal engineering arm back in 2019. Naming RLLM Percy just is a nod to our legacy, the incredible history that Simmons has, but also a nod to innovation in the future and captures that really, really well. I think that's pretty exciting when you're in a room with people who are all different. That's when the real kind of creativity really comes to life. I feel so strongly about that skill set point. On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Emily Monasiriotis.

0:36Emily is the global managing partner at Simmons and Simmons. She specializes in international construction disputes and is a market leading expert on fire safety cases. Her work has been recognized in the lawyer top cases of 2024. Emily firmly believes in her three guiding principles, clients, people and technology. Earlier this year, she was named one of the financial news top 50 most influential lawyers in 2025. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Emily. Thanks very much, Rob. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we get into all the amazing things you have achieved in and around the world of law, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is on the scale of one to 10, with 10 being very real, what would you rate the hit tv series Suits in terms of its reality of the lore if you've seen it on the scale of one to ten is it is there a minus scale yes many people have given it a very serious minus so yes as much I'd like to think that there's lots of glamour that comes with the role and don't get me wrong it's a great role to have I'm not quite sure that I could ever describe Suits as being realistic but it's fun to watch it's good tv there we go you can give it a minus a lot and with that we'll move swiftly on to talk all about you.

1:51So to begin with Emily, would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey? Yeah sure. So I come from I suppose a bit of a different background and my mum, my mum's actually the original Shirley Valentine. So my mum is English and my father's Greek and she left England in the late 60s and moved to Corfu where my dad was a local waiter and they fell in love got married and I was literally born in the UK I think because my mum was too scared to give birth at a Greek hospital but I moved back to Greece when I was six feet old and I grew up I had Rob honestly I had the most amazing amazing childhood I grew up in a village in the south of Kofu very very close to the beach my parents were in the tourist industry which is quite quite it's quite a difficult life because you have to work kind of five months of the year to then live for 12.

2:42I went to an amazing tiny, tiny primary school. There were 30 of us in the entire school. There were six in my entire year. So very kind of sheltered, very happy childhood. I then went to Kofutam for my last three years at school. And then in 95, I decided to take the big step and to move to the UK because I felt it was a whole part of me that I didn't really know much about kind of the English side of our family. So I decided to move to the UK and I read English language and linguistics at Durham University and I often talk about the year that my resilience was born and it was definitely 1995 you can just picture leaving Corfu and actually I've just celebrated I don't know if celebrate is the right word my 30th year actually in the UK because I moved to the UK I say 30 years ago um I moved to Durham I didn't know what fish and chips were it was quite a um yeah quite quite an unusual year for me and I basically kind of ever since then lived in the UK I read English language because I really really want to improve my academic English the school that I went to I was totally taught in Greek but I was brought up thanks to my mum at bilingual I then kind of read and I did a law conversion course as an LPC I trained at a niche construction firm I discovered pretty early on that I wanted to be a construction lawyer which is always a great conversation killer when when people ask you what you do you say a lawyer they get quite fascinated then when you said construction law that used to usually kill the conversation i'm not sure it's got much better now that i say i'm a managing partner of a law firm but um anyway and then i yeah so i joined simmons about 10 years ago best ever career move really for me so a bit of a kind of different background potted history but i think just life just takes you where it does right you see opportunity and you go for it absolutely and we we absolutely agree with that on the show and you know growing up in core for me must have been awful like you said you know I'm having visions here of like places I need to go on holiday and that's top on the list and it's funny that you joke about construction because my my younger brother is a QS actually and in construction and so whenever he starts talking about things it's a conversation killer so it took me when you you referenced that what drew you to law originally though what inspired you to take the route to be a lawyer I've always wanted to be a lawyer so you know when people ask you that awkward question if you weren't a lawyer what would you be I literally I have no genuine answer i have to make something up it was one of these things that just really fascinated me i imagine tv probably have has quite a lot to answer for kind of i grew up in the la law um era and i just remember thinking it was like really interesting for me i wanted to move away from the village i was growing up in i wanted to achieve a career somewhere i thought law was pretty interesting my mum who's a massive massive hoarder about three two three years ago she discovered this note from when I was seven where I wrote worse the effect that I want to be a lawyer because I like to win arguments so I'm not quite sure what I thought at the time but I just never ever considered any other career that's I was I'm pretty determined person I decided pretty early doors that that's what I wanted to do it just how was I going to get there was a big question for me yeah and you've absolutely got there and you know it's tremendous achievements what you have gone on to do.

5:57Again, to educate our listeners, because we are interested in construction and construction disputes. You know, you specialize in international construction disputes and very much market leading expert on fire safety cases. For our listeners who might be unfamiliar, which is sort of tell us a little bit more about your practice area and what it's all about. Yeah, so construction, the reason I wanted to do construction, just to start there, is because one of the, I had two main criteria. I didn't want to do anything that had kind of that human element, family law, divorce. I just, I just know my personality.

6:27I wanted to act for corporates. My second criteria was I wanted to do something that every case was different and had active law in it. And very much kind of construction was that thing for me. And because every single case is different, they all have quite a strong technical element to it. So I kind of trained, as I say, in a niche construction firm. I really got into the international side of the business and did a lot of work in the Middle East. so large infrastructure projects, so why a project delayed, who's responsible for delays, big defects, defects on projects. And I did quite a lot of negligence cases, and that's quite interesting, making a career out of other people's mistakes.

7:10But as I kept saying to clients at the time, that is why you're insured, that's why you have PI insurance, acting for architects, engineers, quantity surveyors, you could tell, your brother as well. and really kind of moving on to kind of larger international construction arbitration because I really wanted that kind of international element to my cases and obviously there were very very tragic events in Grenfell in the UK fire safety became a real issue here very difficult and legal environment very difficult and reg environment for clients in the UK and it was one of those areas that you felt that you had to kind of really develop.

7:49So I led the fire safety team and here at Simmons acting for a number of large contractors in the UK whilst also making sure I kind of maintain my international construction focus. I did some really fascinating projects around the world. I think the worst one was probably a sewage treatment facility I had to do in the Middle East but that was probably the less glamorous side of things. I did a really great oil field dispute in Kuwait in the early 2000s and road projects, bridges, all types of large infrastructure projects. And every case was different. Every client was different. And it was really, really interesting.

8:25Is there one most memorable case to date that you can share with us? And if so, why? Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to pick one of them. I think the case that I learned the most, if I could put it like that, was probably, it was the largest data center dispute at the time. And it was, data centers are now a really big area and a massive focus for us here at Simmons, but generally in the industry. And data centers started off many years ago, and this was the largest dispute in relation to a data center. And things like, when you choose experts, it was very difficult because there wasn't any expert who'd given evidence on data centers so we had to spend quite a lot of time interviewing different technical people because choosing experts for construction cases is is an art in in itself because you've got to have someone who he can who has deep technical expertise but who can then explain the very complicated technical issues to the lawyers and ultimately to the judge or the arbitrator so we spent so it's a really interesting case it was also quite a difficult case in that it was we had covid at the time and the hearing which was a lengthy hearing was straight after lockdown and it was strange coming kind of back into the city and being in rooms together so we had to kind of work and be very very flexible during lockdown it was it had an international dimension the lawyers from the other side were were based in asia we were based in the uk so there were lots of kind of practical issues there but it was one of those cases where I look back and we had such a great team the team here at Simmons were fantastic the barristers that we worked with the experts but none of it was easy it was all had to be pulled together and I think it was the case where I genuinely think I learned much more about any other area but also you learned about what good teamwork really looked like and it was actually I'm sure we'll come on to speak about AI because everyone speaks about AI it was like one of those moments where I really really realized how AI and tech is changing the legal world and and it really there was this incident that happened which really kind of changed my mind shift so I've got many fond memories many difficult memories it ruined quite a lot of holidays that yeah quite a lot of calls and sociable hours but that's the reality of being construction litigator working across time zones but it's for me it was kind of the one case that really stands out in my career.

10:54Yeah, and just as you were articulating that, I could see how I talk a lot about skill stacking, actually, from experiences that you get involved in, and just how you articulate everything involved, those sort of skills or those experiences that you can pick up just from that one case that you can then move forwards. And, you know, it's tremendous, the work that you've done. And again, that leads nicely to what I was going to talk about. You touched on resilience before. You know, I always talk a lot about, look, tough times don't last, but tough people do. And again, I love that you've reframed that in terms of teamwork, because we're advocates for teamwork, we is greater than me, absolutely.

11:24But as someone who has been sort of leading international disputes, super high profile matters, how do you manage the pressure that ensure that you remain effective at the moment of most complexity? Yeah, I mean, I'll lead others to work out whether I remain effective. What works for me and my resilience? I think first things first, I'm one of these people that I'm very good at compartmentalising. mentalizing and i also i recognize my own limitations and i know my own limitations and i'll just remind myself i am one person and i can only do what what what i can do i know i know my signs i know what i need to do to remain healthy to remain resilient and and to really kind of focus my my own mind and i think a lot of it is about really understanding yourself your limitations and your opportunities and we talk about i mean look you're in a high pressured environment right that's the most high performance but supportive cultures I often talk about that but it is it is a very very high performance environment and to get the best out of your people you need to make sure that you understand them as individuals but to do that you really need to understand what works for you and for me things like make sure that I exercise regularly but I have downtime with the kids at the weekend family holidays there's things that I know that I need to do to make myself resilient and but as I say for me the key is recognizing my own what is I need to do and really making sure that I try and find time to do so because time doesn't exist does it you have to make time you have to work out how can you make time in a pretty busy high performance world and I couldn't agree more and on the health point I made a conscientious decision this year to ensure that I run and so a lot of people who follow me and follow the show I've been running 5k every work day and I keep it in my calendar it's in a fixed time so or I find a time so once it's written down I have the time block to ensure that I can commit to that and actually I try to run before every podcast episode so I can bring my best you know hopefully the endorphins and actually we're a little bit delayed coming on today which allowed me to actually get my run in so I'm super excited and like really happy I got to do that so hopefully I can perform well for you today and talking about performing you um became global managing partner of Simmons and Simmons and took office I think as first of May of the year you started the role so what does a typical day look like for you assuming no two days are the same but give us a typical day yeah that's why I wanted this role Rob because no two days are ever the same it really honestly I can't in the past six months have been phenomenal I feel so privileged to do what I do and I love what I do but there are no typical days but that is what I like about it I've spent a lot of time and traveling actually because as you said it's kind of a global role one of the first things i did is i appointed a you our first ever uk country head in the phenomenal penny miller who's one of my great great colleagues here because i really wanted the uk to have its own kind of identity push forward we've got some really exciting opportunities in the uk we're moving building we're developing we've got great client relationships here in the uk and i wanted the uk to be really kind of well looked after but i wanted my focus to be on the international side of the business because I think that for me is one of our differentiators in the market, kind of our global network.

14:43And it comes back to the case I was talking about earlier, the data centers case. There's nothing like teamwork and getting to know people as people. And for me, it's been very, very important to be traveling around to all of our offices. I'm trying to get around all of them by Christmas, which is naming international national offices and we have and there's nothing like spending time and with with people in various offices seeing clients in different offices obviously i kind of chair our exgo so chairing the exgo we're not in a regular basis we have a very clear sector focus at stimmons so chairing meetings with our sept heads but spending time with people like i see i see my role as getting the best out of the amazing talent we have at the firm and the only way you could do that is really getting to know the people.

15:34Yeah, and that shows you genuinely care as well, investing that time rather than just being a number and just putting in the billable hours. You genuinely care about their development, their well-being, what they're trying to achieve out of a career of being a lawyer. And clearly, that's what sets you apart as one of the top, top legal leaders in the UK. Okay, so you are responsible building on that for basically developing the firm, driving its vision, its business plan. We talk a lot about the importance of being mission-focused in terms of having a company or a firm to really get people to understand their contribution, how it delivers on that and why it's important.

16:03Ours on their own show is to inspire legal minds and transform legal futures, hopefully with the content we produce. But what do you hope to achieve and what is your vision for the firm? Yeah, I think for me, kind of focusing on our areas of strength and if you think about kind of our global footprint, I'm a really big believer in our Asia part of the business and really focusing where I see opportunities for us where the law firms are pulling out because that's leaving a gap in the market that we can very readily kind of step into so i've literally just come back from singapore and tokyo and i'm planning to well i'm not planning i'm going to hong kong and china very soon so i've got a really kind of clear focus and very clear vision for the asia part of our business strengthening the middle east we've been in the middle east for 30 years now we've opened our doors in riyadh and we have our launch event coming up we've announced that we're opening the free zone in Abu Dhabi so the ADGM so we're opening targeting opening there later on in the year and then really strengthening our continental Europe offering so for me it's really kind of building on areas of strength I'm not interested in putting a flag in every single country I'm not interested in having kind of a two-person team somewhere what I'm really keen is to really focus on our sectors actually we're well known for I work for financial institutions, asset management and investment funds, health and life sciences, TMT clients, and also energy, natural resources, infrastructure and construction.

17:32We love an acronym, it's called ENREC, so I don't have to wheel that out. I speak entirely. But I just want when clients think about Simmons, I think it's really important to know the areas that we're really focusing on where we can give really deep sector expertise and make sure that we're building that out. I love that laser focus. And again, my listeners will be sick and tired of me saying it, but specific is terrific. The more you can be focused in on where you're delivering and communicating to your clients and getting client-centered, you will absolutely remain top of mind. You'll continue to trust those relationships will build.

18:05And I love that you also have a focus on the Middle East. We were out there earlier this year and did a whole series in Dubai, which was lots of fun. Folks can go and check that out. I'll leave you on the move. And we're also doing a podcast and paddle tournament in January 26th. If anyone's interested and wants to get in touch, get in touch with the show. So, okay, going back to leadership, because you joined Simmons, I think, in 2017. And now, obviously, you're the global managing partner. That's just huge success in its own right. But what are some of the key lessons from that journey that you could share with others looking to grow into leadership roles?

18:36It's interesting because, genuinely, I still have to pinch myself every day. I saw my email signature the other day, and it made me jump. I was, oh, no, no, that is me. But I've always seen kind of everything I've done in my career as a stepping stone to the next thing. And in terms of training with a niche construction firm, working for a more international firm. So when I joined Simmons in 2017, I was made head of insurance and construction in the UK. I was then made head of UK dispute resolution. I was then given an amazing, amazing role. I was international head of dispute resolution. I really kind of realized how passionate I was about the international side of the business.

19:14And then I was elected managing partner. so if you think about it's kind of a journey that's kind of moved and as I say everything kind of being a stepping stone for me one of the really important things is kind of stretching kind of what I talk about the kind of the boundaries of my comfort zone I never want to go outside my comfort zone where I feel I don't know what I'm doing but kind of constantly pushing myself challenging myself working out what is the next thing what is it I want to achieve I never ever if someone said to me 10 years ago you'll be the global managing partner at simmons and simmons i literally it just wasn't wasn't one of those things but when the opportunity came i i got myself comfortable that i'd rather go for it and not get it rather than not not try out and then but then the more i got into into the kind of election and the race the more i wanted it so it became kind of this almost existential issue for me but like it all it all ended well so it was all good um but you learn a lot about yourself um as part of a journey like that yeah and i I always encourage people with a growth mindset.

20:18No, what if it goes wrong? What is, rather than what is, what is the opportunity? Actually, if it goes right, I become a global managing partner of a top law firm. You know, I put my hat in the ring and I go for it. And I love that you talked about sort of, you know, because a mind stretch never returns. If you stretch that mind, you keep pushing yourselves. You'll continue to grow. Such, such important advice. And look, the comfort zone is great, but nothing ever grows there. So we continue to challenge yourselves. And talking of challenges, let's talk about some of the leadership challenges.

20:41It's all been rosy so far. And it all looks amazing, but obviously trying to achieve things, it can be quite hard along the way. So what have been some of the challenges and obstacles you faced in your journey to becoming managing partner? And how did you overcome them? And perhaps what have been some of your lessons? Yeah, I mean, as I say, it's interesting, as it comes back to the point I was making earlier, there's only one person, but it's very much kind of a leadership position rather than a management position, kind of inspiring the partners, setting the strategy, pulling people along the way.

21:11affecting change in law firms isn't easy you do get people who are resistant to change and that that's understandable I mean I'm one of them finding change quite difficult but one of the things that was very important to me when I was elected managing partner is that I didn't want change for change's sake and we are we've been pretty successful as a firm and and very much kind of for me it's about building on that success and just taking us to to the next level being more bold, being more ambitious, looking at kind of the opportunities that are available to us as a firm. So I've tried to, what I've really tried to do in my first kind of six months is that, that balance between continuity, but also change.

21:50And I sometimes recognise for some people, the change that I've made have been probably a step too far for others than not enough. And I just have to kind of work out the mood of the partnership, how far can I push people to push us in in the right direction and it's interesting you when you put yourself up for a role like this you have to put your tin hat on at times because you do get direct feedback which is great like i'm here to learn and so you you do learn about yourself quite a lot people give you feedback whether it's wanted or unwanted that is absolutely fine and and i think for me really it's just kind of as i say just getting the mood of the partnership the mood for people and pushing people in the right direction.

22:33Yeah, and I love that. And look, the reality is nothing changes if nothing changes. And so you have to come in and make something happen. And ultimately, you'll find out as well, which have the people have the shared values, the shared vision. And you know, there will always be some change along the way. But certainly from the outside looking and everything you've done since going into the office has been absolutely fantastic. And it's been a great success story. So you know, wishing you lots of continued success. I want to double down on leadership because you are in a very high profile role you rightly deserve the opportunity so again for other people that are looking to aspire and thinking about how they might need to develop what leadership qualities do you think have been significant in your path to managing partner that team spirit i don't know if that's leadership quality but surrounding yourself with talent is yeah i've always had i've always had the a team around me which is very very and key people talk about authenticity a lot but I really think it's one of those values that is so so important in life like being yourself being kind of honest truthful curiosity and for me is always being kind of one of my driving principles kind of always be curious both about people but about business and kind of striving to learn things honesty and is very very important integrity I I mean, you cannot be in a position of leadership unless you have integrity.

23:56For me, it's kind of, again, one of the very strong guiding principles. But I do think that curiosity point for me is the thing that I've developed over the years, kind of constantly thinking about how can I learn, how can I improve, who are the people I can learn from, who are the people I can bring on the journey with me. And being very, very curious, I really think is what's made a difference to me personally. Yeah, and I remember very, very early on before I set up my businesses and answered to me, Rob, you think you know everything, you know, literally nothing. And you always need to ensure you're asking the right questions as well to get the quality information out of the people you're trying to focus on.

24:35I love that. OK, we're going to move into the techie AI bit. Of course, we have to. But sort of leading into more AI, let's start with sort of your client centric approach, because it's very evident in your strategic focus and commitment to understanding clients needs. What does strategic client focus look like, especially when technology is changing how clients define value? I mean, we live in a very, very fast paced world. You say changing nothing changes nothing. You can't change nothing. Look what's happening around you because you will be left behind. One of the things that I think really sets Simmons apart is our innovative approach.

25:12We were the first law firm to acquire a regulated legal engineering arm back in 2019. And it's creating that kind of culture, innovation and culture of tech. but it is more important than ever now to be really bedding down in client relationships and speaking to clients on how they are also transforming when it comes to the use of tech to the use of AI particularly generative AI because we are we need to be part of that client journey and that's what we've been positioning ourselves to be doing for a number of years and that's actually one of the things that's really fundamentally changing I think in law firms which I think is actually quite exciting and the skill sets that you now require to deliver client services and I think about the kind of our legal engineers our designers that we have at Simmons and how we've been pushing those boundaries for quite a few years now and how kind of really getting in and speaking with clients and helping them be part of their journey is really really important because it is different we look at kind of 10 years ago it was all about kind of legal technical skills and of course of course you have to have top top legal talent right without a doubt you've got to be top of your game when it comes to legal advice but now it's a lot a lot of the conversation is how do you deliver those services to clients as well in any more innovative way today's episode is brought to you by clio are you frustrated with your current legal management software you're not alone and thousands of solicitors across the uk feel your pain however the hassle of moving all their existing client and case data holds most back from switching, prolonging the frustration.

26:50Clio is here to help. Their dedicated migration team will be with you every step of the way while you transfer your information. And if you have any questions, you'll get award-winning support available 24-5 by live chat, phone, and email. So help is always there when you need it most. It's no wonder Clio is consistently receiving five-star ratings for ease of use and top-notch service. If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Earlier this year, we were at the Festival of Entrepreneurs, which cuts across many industries, not just law.

27:29And Piers Linney, who's been on our show before, former Dragon's Den investor, good friend of mine and lawyer, talks a lot about the value pyramid. Doesn't matter if you're a lawyer, doesn't matter if you're an accountant, doesn't matter even if you're potentially a specialist in a certain area, you as a service provider need to find a way to outpace the technology that is filling this pyramid. We've seen it at some sort of obviously lower levels with paralegal work, with contract review, et cetera, et cetera. Technology is only going to get better in the dial-up phase of this once in a species, not revolution opportunity of AI.

27:58So you need to find a way to ensure that human touch keeps like client-centered, strategic, and add value. And I think that's going to be the biggest challenge for a lot of organizations. And of course, you're doing fantastically well in terms of embracing technology and AI and looking forwards and being early to it. Because I think, as you say, the ship has left the harbour. People will be left behind. So let's dive in a little bit more on some of the initiatives and sort of leveraging tech, because you have spearheaded quite a few to leverage and enhance legal practice, embracing the firm's development and adoption of AI.

28:27Can you tell us a bit more about some of the initiatives and the impact it's had on Simmons & Simmons as a firm? Yeah. And I remember I was at the International Executive Committee. Sorry, I nearly fell into Simmons speak, the IEC. A couple of years ago, where we met in Milan to try and decide whether or not we were going to buy a Gen AI or build our own. And with the benefit of hindsight, you don't have the benefit of hindsight. You've got to make the decision in the main and work out where is our investment going to be. But again, we had a phenomenal team of partners who were advising us. our head of TMT, Alex Brown, Drew Winlaw, who joined us from Wavelength.

29:05We had an amazing team of advisors where we decided that the right thing for us to do at the time was to build Percy, our own in-house LLM. And it was absolutely, even now, the benefit of hindsight, the right decision for us, not least because it created that culture of innovation pretty early on. And we've been helping kind of build Percy and roll it out to the rest of the firm. And the fact that it's kind of proprietary system it's our system i really think differentiates us and in the world because if we're all using exactly the same tech in the same way how do you differentiate yourself and and for me kind of that that kind of curiosity that innovation the fact that we decide we decided to do something different and that's something that i again challenge myself constantly i don't want to do what everyone else does i want something to be different i want us to be innovative I want us to be find creative ways of working with our clients and really kind of that was that that moment where it was I really think it was the right decision to make it felt the right time it's proved to be the right decision Percy won an amazing award very recently we're very proud and also it's kind of I don't know if you know the story but it's called Percy because Simmons and Simmons was set up by twin brothers one of whom was Percy so I just think naming our LLM Percy just is a nod to our legacy, the incredible history that Simmons has, but also nod to innovation in the future and kind of captures that really, really well.

30:34I love that. And I love legacy and that story. And I love that when people are going left, you go right. And it's something you're talking my language to and why the whole show was born. You know, we could have stayed a very vanilla legal recruiting business and just did what everyone else was doing. But we went out and built community and hopefully deliver value to people and and build brand and all of that good stuff. Okay, let's double down more on AI then, because you've been ahead of the curve as you referenced when it comes to AI. What are your thoughts on how tech is shaping what clients expect today, and how law firms must respond?

31:06Because I still think there's hesitation by too many law firms. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's shaping. I think it's revolutionizing services and fundamentally changing and how you offer services to clients. And I think those who don't believe in AI or think it's a hype or like you speak to people that I was the dot com type bubble. I just I think they're going to be left behind. Right. And I think the world, the change is real and the change is happening here. And what I need to do is make sure that we've got an amazing team in-house that can help us kind of deliver those solutions. But the really, really interesting bit, I think, when it comes to AI and the point that we were discussing earlier around change in law firms is, yes, it's got to be led by the front.

31:52Absolutely, I as managing partner, ultimately the buck stops with me and our leadership team and the senior people in this organization. But the thing that I think is really, really brilliant about tech and AI is it gives juniors the opportunity to fundamentally change this firm. because real change when it comes to tech and AI is going to come from genius it's not going to come from people of my generation if I could put it like like I'm so far behind I've been spending kind of time in airport lounges learning more about agentic AI our team here pulled together some really great resources for me because I need to educate myself I need to make sure I understand the technology and what it can deliver but it's what is really really good is it gives genius kind of that opportunity to really shape and one of the things that we've done here at simmons is we have what we call our ai champions which are those people at the firm you can really go into every practice group work out how we're going to deliver different services to our clients and fundamentally shift how we deliver services and what are the types of technology that we need to invest in what can we do with our current technology that revolutionizes and changes what we do with clients and that is the job of one two people it really is everyone and i really genuinely believe that everyone in the organization has got a role to play here and i was speaking to someone just in singapore last week that come from a computer science background like you want people got those different skill sets and we've just launched our ai internship here in the uk i think we're the first law firm to to offer that and having kind of different people different view points and different skill sets is really important but i people talk a lot don't they about kind of oh what does it mean for junior lawyers they're not going to be trained i just think it's such an exciting time to be a junior lawyer and bring something different to the table couldn't agree more and i love your approach to sort of diversity of thought and i i also encourage people and agree particularly on the junior spectrum to have a 360 board of personal mentors people above you people the same level but also people beneath you more juniors because they have so much skills i'm involved in some legal tech startups where i sit on the board and when they sort of you know the the ceos come in the the young ceo there's so much wisdom and knowledge and skill set that I pick up learning from these people in a tech first world.

34:07And I think it's exciting. And we should encourage and kind of empathize with these people to get that wisdom shared because you can move further so much faster with those skills. Okay, you talked about Percy, and this links nicely, actually, to there is risks, there's safety, there's governance when we need to think about AI. So what are some of the risk law firms face when adopting AI into their workflow without doing due diligence yeah and i think again i i have endless discussions about this because obviously hallucinations are a thing right yeah yeah we spend a lot of time trying to make sure that person doesn't hallucinate but ultimately when you got work given to you by a paralegal by a trainee by newly qualified you always used to check it right why now suddenly you think that just because tech is helping you produce something that you don't need to check it i just i don't understand how people think like that and again you've got a prompting how you prompt kind of gen ai and how you ask ask for the source reference it's such an obvious thing ask it to do something and ask it to set out where the reference is and then you go and check the reference it's no different to when you've got someone to do and to do as a legal research in times come, but also really understanding the limitations of the technology and really using the right tools for the right type of task.

35:30I think, and again, I'm going to speak about our AI champions. They've spent a lot of time creating really clear prompt libraries for our different parts of the business. And it's an education piece. And it's really, I also don't subscribe to this notion that AI takes away critical thinking. If anything, you need even more critical thinking now. And again, I just think I worry less about kind of the development of juniors and the development of kind of that AI is going to take away from critical thinking. If anything, you've got to be on the ball now. But you need to understand the technology and you need to understand its limitations and it's constantly moving the pace so six months ago it may have hallucinated if you prompted it in a certain way it's like less likely to be now and it's just kind of constantly changing so that's why you have to be on top of your get on the top of your game like when you look at this thing another point to make rob which i think is really important one is we're not a tech company right yeah we are a law firm looking to help our clients to deliver premium work for premium clients.

36:38That's kind of one of the things, constantly looking at solving our clients' most complex problems. And AI helps us, but we're not a tech company. And I think people sometimes forget about that, that our use of AI is to help deliver legal solutions to clients. Yeah, no, and that's a really important point. And, you know, the thing that I love about your approach is it's looking forwards, not backwards. You know, you're always looking about where we can improve, where we can get better. And ultimately, it's a tool, right? And every tool gets developed and improves. Like human, as you go through your own skills, your own journey, you're developing.

37:09These are continuously developing. So yes, you may need to go back and check it. And yes, maybe you should be checking it because like you say, juniors, when they first started, you would check their works. But these tools will get better and better and better over time. So that time gap will be sort of reduced. So then you'll need to continue thinking about that value pyramid, how you can get up there, how you can keep adding that human touch, that value to your clients, to your people. I touched on mentoring, but I want to get your thoughts now, particularly around talent and culture, because you've also championed mentoring inclusion across the firm.

37:37What's one thing you think law firms get wrong about talent and culture? Not treating people as individuals. OK, love it. I think that's really important because everyone makes assumptions like are people driven by money or driven by status or driven. People get driven by different things. And as I said before, it's like, how do we get the best out of our people? How do our people here at Simmons think? I love working at Simmons. I feel so supportive. I'm reaching my own potential. And we can only do that if we understand the drivers of each people and treating people as individuals. I talk a lot, kind of the partners here around kind of the notion of active management.

38:19And that is what I mean. I treat that person and understand what it is that drives that person. Yeah. And I couldn't agree more with that. And also, if people share personal information with you, which they're happy for you to know, rather than did you have a good weekend, if they have a daughter, say, how was your weekend with Jennifer? What did you get up to? Those little things of showing they're not a number, but you know and care about their life as well, I think is super, super important. It's also more interesting. It's a much more interesting question, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's important.