Will AI Fuel the Rise of Independent Lawyers? - Kenzo Onumonu - S10E38

0:00Stage matters, but I think the thing that matters even more is an understanding of your legal roadmap. A fractional lawyer is not just coming in to do a task and leave. They're coming in to own a function and be the responsible person for that function. It's not the same as going to an external firm. It's somebody that owns the entire process, owns the relationship and is accountable, which means it's taken off the incumbent's plate. somebody is doing a lot of legal themselves either using general purpose ai or it's taking up too much of their time and it's not their job and it's not their expertise that's where a fractional lawyer would be really good to come in if you're using a quorum lawyer after a month you'll see a data picture of exactly where they're working and exactly where that work is coming from within your business that will inform you as to what sort of legal you need on today's legally speaking podcast sponsored by Clio.

0:54I'm delighted to be joined by Kenzo Onumonu. Kenzo is the founder of Coram, a platform connecting experienced lawyers with scaling companies seeking senior legal expertise on a flexible basis. Kenzo trained at Bird and Bird before moving in-house. He gained experience working with high growth businesses and developing a broader perspective on how legal support can best serve growing organizations. From his experience in private practice and in-house roles, Kenzo founded Coram to address two challenges within the legal market, providing independent lawyers with infrastructure for success and enabling businesses to access senior legal expertise.

1:32Today, we'll discuss the growing number of lawyers choosing independent careers, the changing needs of scaling businesses, and the perspective on the future of legal services. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Kenzo. Lovely to be here and thank you for having me on. ah it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show and before we dive into all the great work you're doing a couple of quick fire icebreaker questions for you firstly what's your favorite beverage and what's your preferred choice of footwear on a typical work day oh uh preferred beverage i'm probably gonna sound super boring here but it's probably just kind of like um water and electrolytes on a normal day if i'm out a rum um yeah but just typical water whatever of as in my uh in my Stanley yeah um as I'm sipping my water now um footwear on a typical work day what would you go for so I work from home a lot and um yeah so it would be some sort of flip-flop Birkenstock combo sometimes one on each foot it depends that sort of thing like it okay and then one piece of technology legal tech or everyday technology you now rely on you would thought unthinkable at the start of your career?

2:44I'm going to go for as a toss up between Granola, which I think is just so underrated, and Calendly. So I actually love the story of Calendly. So a Nigerian founder, I'm Nigerian as well, called Topi Awatana. He bootstrapped that business and knocked on every investor door and kind of no one wanted to fundraise and then COVID happened. Everybody needs to go remote and his business exploded. So I love that story and I love his product. So I'll probably just say Calendly pips it. I love that. I love that story. And yeah, not to segue too much, but my Italian mother-in-law was born in Joss and yeah, Okka and Starbaga and all of that.

3:28We could have a real conversation. Oh, wow. Yeah, absolutely. But I think we should talk about your journey. So could Could you talk us through the journey from training at Bird and Bird to your in-house experience, including Deliver Room and then ultimately founding your own business? Yeah, absolutely. So I paralegaled at Travers first in the corporate private equity team. That's when I kind of, I guess, found corporate law and realized, look, I quite like this. And then when I trained at Bird and Bird, I only did three seats because I'd done quite but paralegal worker at Travers. And the second seat I did was corporate.

4:08And, you know, before I ended up leaving the seat, I got introduced to venture capital and realized that's where I wanted to be. Then I qualified into corporate venture capital and ended up doing kind of lots of transactions from early stage to more mature companies. And oddly kind of worked in the food tech space on fundraisings for food tech founders. So we did some stuff with Just Eat. We did some stuff with a company called Spoon Guru back in the day. And then one of my colleagues left to go to Bumble. And she had been interviewing that guru. And she said, look, like these guys are looking.

4:48Would you be interested in chatting to them? I thought, why not? I'll have a chat and went to see their offices and meet the team. And yeah, I actually applied for a corporate role. and they went with someone who was slightly more senior, who's now kind of a really good friend and an investor in Coram. And they sort of had a commercial role in the team. And I was about two years qualified and I thought, why not? I can learn something new and I'm sure I'll be able to do some corporate work. So then joined Deliveroo and wow, like what a fast paced environment to work in. I'm sure you've heard. The great thing about Deliveroo was everything you were working on was novel.

5:29so it was like okay cool we're opening the offices in uh kuwait i haven't really had this sort of service before uh and it was just like great and the pace was amazing and i worked for a really great boss lady called chantelle zember and she was very much kind of like as a lawyer you should be ambitious about your practice and the different verticals that you can kind of get involved in so although i started commercial i ended up in the corporate team anyway i was looking after ip i was doing options, incentives. So I got a real breadth of work. And then after a few years, I decided to join Entrepreneurs First.

6:06And that was nothing against Deliveroo, but I remember leaving Bird and Bird and a partner saying, you're now responsible for your own trajectory. And what they were really saying was, if you want to build a practice, it might be that you have to kind of move to get different experiences and that's that's what i've done i've kind of gone to different companies to get different experiences and entrepreneurs first it was very much working with their cohorts and doing early stage fundraisings and also kind of day-to-day commercial legal work as well um but that was a lot of travel going to different offices opening up a site in India opening up a site in Canada so that is still today probably one of the most electric places I've ever worked and yeah what they're doing is is wicked from there I went on to be a legal director at Wheezy and then general counsel at Modern Milton so kind of a full spectrum and you know lots of different legal verticals and lots of different legal experiences some fascinating experiences as well which I want to talk to but just that piece of advice that that partner at Bird & Bird said, you know, I say a lot on the show about if it's meant to be, it's up to me, you know, taking that self-accountability and you absolutely ran with that and hence where you've got to today.

7:25And with all of these experiences, with anyone's careers, your skill stacking, your network stacking, your relationship capital stacking, you know, all of them, it's propelling you forwards, isn't it, in terms of giving you these tools and experiences which makes you just a more rounded individual for your areas of expertise. So on that then, private practice and in-house, you've had some really good experiences both. How did your perspective on the role of a lawyer change when you moved from businesses? And when did you learn about the type of legal support businesses really value? It became evident that the role of the lawyer kind of needed to be multifaceted.

8:06That's super it's at Deliveroo. I remember kind of being on a project before and not knowing what I was doing in terms of, we've never done this before. But you always, from a legal perspective, will know more than the business knows. So your job is to kind of decipher, calm down and be rational and give kind of reasonable legal advice. So you kind of have to be a jack of all trades in-house. When I figured out kind of precisely what, you know, I believe lots of corporates need from their legal function was when I started leading legal teams and when I started working fractionally. That's when you sit really close to the decision makers and you're setting legal strategy, you're looking after legal budgets and you're looking after the legal function in its entirety.

8:54you quickly come to realize a few things that you may not have known when you're a junior lawyer kind of going through the motions in terms of legal's place in the business in terms of how legal can insert itself at top of funnel so that it can be a really great business partner when things get you know hairy or when decisions need to be made and one thing you touched on a a moment ago was sort of the nature of being independent and going out there on your own. So is there an increase or there is an increase we're seeing in experienced lawyers moving away from traditional law firms to more in-house careers and other ventures?

9:35What do you think is driving that shift and are flexibility, autonomy factors in the change between the private practice and in-house the real driving factors for that? I think the underpinning factor was probably COVID. The big unlock was you can completely be as efficient working at home. Once you have that as an anchor, then the question becomes, well, actually, can you work for multiple different businesses at home? And can you work from anywhere if you can work at home? And that's kind of like a flexibility unlock for lots of lawyers. And I think a lot of lawyers are realizing now that kind of with AI as a superpower, they can leverage their experience in ways that probably weren't possible before.

10:24So the why now question is a multiple of things. AI has given lawyers the ability to operate like this and get closer to kind of what a firm would produce with a boutique's firm. Legal teams are shrinking generally, right? So I haven't been a GC working with CFOs. One thing every GC will have to do is kind of justify spend. Typically, you go to a CFO and say, hey, we're really busy. Look, we need to hire. And they'll say, why? Show me some numbers and show me some metrics. And lawyers traditionally are quite bad at sort of metricizing legal output, which is incidentally what Coram is all about and what you can do there.

11:06But that kind of shift is, I think, is underpinned now because lawyers can say, well, I have AI, I have my experience. The only thing that's missing now is me connecting with businesses that kind of value that experience. And then I can craft a career in a direction that I want to craft it in. I can work deliberately in a sector that I want to work in. And yeah, now lots of lawyers want to work like that. They sure do. And it sounds good. Before we talk a little bit more about Coran, what you're doing. For lawyers who do leave these leading firms, what are the challenges they face once they become independent?

11:48Because whilst lawyers may have the expertise and the experience to rely on, what infrastructure or support do they lose when they leave these traditional firms? Great question. So if you think about what a firm does for you, I think I've heard quite a few lawyers on LinkedIn describe it. the human body, if you like. There are lots of processes happening that you're just unaware of, but you need them to function. And a law firm is exactly the same. Someone is doing your BD for you, someone is chasing your invoices, someone is responsible for making sure you have all of the research and precedence and everything that you need, and someone is responsible for ultimately giving you work.

12:25And when you leave and you go independent, you have to find fixes for all of those to manage your practice. So what we found that most lawyers were doing is using kind of like a disparate set of tools or nothing. And in terms of kind of the business development aspect, you know, not everyone has like a huge network that they can draw on and sort of say, look, I've now got five or six clients that I'm working with. So you have to find solutions for that. And you have to be really scrappy. And you have to basically think like a founder and an entrepreneur and go out and meet people and business develop and it's a super crowded market as well like let's not forget that so yeah you lose all of that infrastructure so it's the back end stuff and it's also the business development stuff and that's kind of what we've you know tried to recreate with quorum and that yeah that leads nicely doesn't it the the infrastructure gap in in quorum so for folks who may be new to quorum tell us exactly um what it is that that you do and the problem that you're specifically solving?

13:29We exist to allow really good independent counsel to serve companies directly. And the way we do that is we provide them with all the back-end infrastructure and AI tooling to effectively give them the power of an AI native firm. And then for companies that can't afford to hire counsel, or it doesn't make sense for them to hire counsel permanently, and it also doesn't make sense for them to use law firms exclusively, we provide lawyers that they plug in on a fractional basis to manage the legal function how simplistic is it it sounds fantastic again for people that may want to come and actually check out the platform you are providing the infrastructure is it as simple as plug in and play what are some of the time scales you know billing ops you know the network side of things talk us through like the the reality or some of the case studies you've had thus far where people have almost been amazed by joining the platform yeah so um joining and onboarding is super easy is um apply on the platform we review every application you'll get a response pretty quickly and then onboarding is tell us about your background tell us about your expertise and tell us whether you want to be on the storefront or not some people just want to use it for their back-end infrastructure um and then clients and companies come to the platform um because it's system of record for the lawyers the lawyers are kind of entering in what they're doing on the platform so they time record their um the data is aggregating there so when a client comes to the platform or prospective one and sort of says i need this really specific thing and i might need it today or next week or you know i'm looking for a general counsel fractionally our system will match them with a lawyer that has done something contemporaneously for a company within that industry or has that experience based on the input data.

15:18So it's kind of like a in real time engine that kind of brings you to a client. Great example. So just to go further on that then, because trust and quality are very important elements of Karim's model and you've been very clear on that. So how do you assess lawyers before they join the platform? Because you mentioned that maybe someone had done that work, but is it to the standard that would be required that would and ensure clients were happy. So yeah, tell us a little bit about that and what qualities or experience are you looking beyond the sort of lawyers, academic and sort of professional credentials for?

15:51I guess what we look for is experience, having handled, manage or work with the sorts of companies that come through the door or that are ICP and that we're going to work with. And those companies are typically venture backed and scaling really fast. and those companies kind of like operate in mess right so everything is jumbled up and actually kind of these lawyers need to be really comfortable operating in chaos but also senior enough to kind of be a good trusted business advisor and have a level of kind of experience that is broad enough that they may not know how to do everything themselves in-house but they know where to find the right solutions and lean on the network so for us it's less about kind of like academic heuristics or like anything like that it's more about have you been senior um or led a legal team in a scaling venture backed company um and you know have you had the experience of working within chaos and can can you demonstrate that we we have a call with everyone who joins so yeah yeah we give everyone a chance to sort of demonstrate that i think that's that's a really good way of looking at it isn't it because ultimately it's eyes wide open then people are aware of what they're getting into and also the experience matches what you're you're looking for you did mention before it's very competitive this space so what do you believe distinguishes Coram's model from the traditional law firm and indeed other competitors out there well I think for us um we kind of provide the infrastructure for uh the lawyer to operate in a fractional sense We do not require lawyers to be exclusive.

17:36We basically, if you think about us, like the infrastructure and like the Shopify, if you like, we're the rails upon which this system and this model scales across an entire industry. So we think that makes us pretty unique in that sense. And then if you think about what a lawyer is typically capable of doing, there might be a commercial lawyer or a corporate lawyer. if they're working with a company, they will have to go to a law firm and use a law firm if something falls outside their specialism. What we're trying to do at Quorum is think about the things that happen across every business as they're scaling and the things that every business needs.

18:17We're using AI native tools and specialists to build them so that these individual lawyers can actually attach those strings to their bow and say, well, I can do AMI, I can do IP, I can do all of these things. And it's backed up and done and underpinned by Coram's AI native lover. Okay, the matching side now going deeper, and this is the recruiter in me and just generally curious. How do you determine which lawyer is best suited for a particular company? Let's just say for arguments, say M &A case comes in, there's two M &A lawyers, similar experience, worked on similar things, both have bandwidth.

18:51How do you choose the difference between those two for one we don't show one option we show a couple and we do a percentage match and that percentage might be matched by how recently have they kind of done a transaction so our system rewards lawyers that use the platform um contemporarily like the more often you use it the more you're going to be surfaced and yeah as i said we give a number of options and it's really then just like a feel of the the individual that you're you're working with so it might be that somebody doesn't quite have the exact experience for exactly what you're looking for there were number two or three in the list um of as a surface but actually you get on really well with them and you like working with them so they're going to be your person and relationships and and that is just as important isn't it those sort of human skills and the uh you know the ability to uh define and sort of really nourish those relationships okay what are some of the misconceptions surrounding legal support you think might be a bit controversial here but uh go for it i think that if we look at the changes in legal ai and the fact that so many non-legal founders are building businesses in legal ai i think there's a conception and i may be wrong but that law is low-hanging fruit because it's largely language and llms are largely language processes that this should be easy right and i I think that kind of is a lot of what lawyers do and a lot of why lawyers are valuable.

20:22It's not kind of just, you know, obviously, as you know, reading contracts and spitting out advice. It's when a founder calls you at 11 p.m. or, you know, in the afternoon and there's kind of like a court-appointed defender, you know, bailiff outside the door. or, you know, the random things that you get as a, let's say you're a solo counsel, the things that go beyond law that you have to kind of be involved in, have the context for, and allow people to run as fast as they want to run, but safely. A lot of those things are looked over in terms of, you know, misconceptions. And also just people like working with people.

21:08A lot of the reason, you know, you might want a fractional lawyer is because you want someone to manage the legal function because you have other things to do, like, you know, grow your business. And since switching and becoming a founder, the things that we need to do as a business from a legal perspective, kind of, I can do them, but I sometimes don't have time to do them. Right. So it's about agency as well and owning outcomes and owning functions. Today's episode is brought to you by Clio. If you're spending more time managing your practice than practicing law, it's time for a change. Clio is the intelligent legal work platform built for modern solicitors, combining context-aware AI with trusted legal research to help you work smarter, not harder.

21:54Switching is easier than you might think. Clio's dedicated migration teams handle your client and case data every step of the way, so you can focus on what matters most, your clients. plus award-winning support 24 5 via live chat phone and email means help is always on hand when you need it visit clio.com forward slash uk to find out why thousands of uk solicitors trust clio now back to the show that example of the 11 p.m is a great example of being able to operate in chaos right and be able to sort of be agile and be able to still deliver and sort of not buckle under pressure we've obviously talked about fractional and the power of that and you know I'm staying on that theme with full-time general counsel now.

22:38There's often a gap, isn't there, between relying on external firms and hiring full-time GCs. So how do you see the legal support bridging that gap specifically? And what type of business model is likely to benefit the most from it? Stage matters, I think. But I think the thing that matters even more is an understanding of your legal roadmap and what's actually coming up and all of the legal work that you have. That will quickly tell you whether you need to hire someone, whether it should be fractional, and in terms of what sort of company, what sort of profile of company requires this. I would probably say it's at a stage where somebody is doing a lot of legal themselves.

23:23and that person is either using general purpose AI or it's taking up too much of their time doing legal and it's not their job and it's not their expertise. That's where a fractional lawyer would be really good to come in. Now, on Quorum, if you're using a Quorum lawyer, after a month, you'll see a kind of data picture of exactly where they're working in terms of legal vertical and exactly where that work is coming from within your business. So is it that your finance team is really relying on legal or is it that your people team are really relying on legal? That data will inform you over a couple of months.

24:02Let's say you trial for three months. That will inform you as to what sort of legal you need and what level of requirement you need. It might be that, oh, God, this is like crazy. We definitely need to hire. But at the end of using a quorum lawyer for a couple of months, you'll know definitively and there'll be data to support that. um what we see most of the time is that in that sweet spot that fractional lawyer is the most fit for purpose thing that you could do because a fractional lawyer is not just coming in to do a task and leave they're coming in to own a function and be the responsible person for that function so it's it's not just it's not the same as going to an external firm it's somebody that owns the entire process owns the relationship and is accountable which means it's taken off incumbents play yeah and that's a key point isn't it they do take that full accountability for it um okay again getting your sort of view on this from your experience do lawyers underestimate the commercial potential of working independently and what should a lawyer consider when assessing whether an independent career could be financially viable for them they definitely underplay the commercial reality because I think just like basic economics if you take out overheads there'll be more left at the end of the day right so if you're by yourself and you're working from your laptop and you know you've got a couple of thousand pounds worth of professional indemnity insurance if you've got four or five clients and you and you're on a retainer of three to four k a month or something like that along those lines that is far better for you than working in one job where you've got a salary, where you don't have the flexibility to upscale, downscale and do all of those things.

25:49Now, is it for everyone? No, because I think lawyers are inherently risk adverse. We surveyed this before we launched. And we said to people, sort of, what would be the biggest blocker? The two things that came up were, I'm risk adverse, and I don't have a client base right yeah and i think the only thing that can qualify against risk aversion is data and our testimonials of other lawyers who have been in the same position and have done quite well and we see now that there are quite a few fractional lawyers in the market and some of them are absolutely killing it and having you know and are not looking back so i think kind of um the risk aversion point can be qualified but then the network point is one that is really make or break if you don't have a network you need to generate one you need to build one and that is broadly on the lawyer right so what we do with quorum is we do all of our go-to-market and business development efforts are kind of platform wide so we want to put eyes on the lawyers that are working through the platform and that's kind of what you get as part of quorum again that's the the value you add isn't it in terms of what what you get coming to a platform like that to really help you boost and like you say get off there and hopefully remove that um concern or a risk aversion that some lawyers may have we've touched on it we haven't really gone deep on ai yet so it's obviously rapidly changing the way legal work is being delivered so what are your thoughts on ai affecting the role of senior lawyers and the fractional legal market I think it's going to be a real tailwind for the fractional legal market, like a real tailwind.

27:38Because I think kind of just using us as an example, you can position yourself as I can do this one thing excellently. I can also do all of these other things because, you know, I've got this AI native law firm behind me. And yeah, it breaks down the barriers that were there in terms of kind of I can only do X. So I think it's going to be a real tailwind for fractional lawyers. And I think more companies are going to choose to go down that direction because it makes economic sense for them, too. I think senior lawyers now are going to be OK. But I think companies are probably likely to not need as many senior lawyers as they did, you know, five years ago.

28:18We'll maybe thin out in terms of kind of what legal teams look like. Now, that's a theory. Another theory is that actually AI will create way more companies, which will create way more legal work. right so you'll need more lawyers i think there'll be more law but i think there will be more optimization in who needs to do that law at what price and how many people need to to kind of look at something um before it goes up yeah and like you say it's it could go either way i think with all of these things we all just need to be curious open to learning you know getting our finger on the polls having these sort of conversations debates and all of that good stuff um building on that tailwind you said you sort of mentioned there because you previously shared although the ai tailwind is strong and is fundamental to how we think the market will evolve legal is still very much about people and relationships so as the technology is going to continue to evolve produce more legal work as we're sort of alluding to there what human skills do you believe will add the greatest value?

29:23That's a really, really good question. I think it's the human skills that already add really good value. I think it's kind of being able to understand and assess kind of like the emotional outcomes that, you know, your client is potentially kind of interested in. It's being able to organise and be clear and have clarity in how you deliver your legal advice. and it's being able to ultimately really work well in chaos. And by that, to use an example, if you're working for a client and on day one they have really bad processes, you need to speak to seven people for context. It's about kind of that calmness that you should get from your lawyer that sort of says, here are the steps that we're going to do to make this run smoothly and seamlessly.

30:19whether you have ai or not those things are fundamental core tenants of kind of just being a good business advisor and a good lawyer i think with ai what's going to happen is the people who are really good at that are going to be able to use ai to configure that so that's seamless and then the businesses that they work with are going to get such a premium service because they've effectively used ai to get an order building on what you were saying before around the future outlook i want to sort of get your deeper thoughts on the legal team of the future because if technology continues to enable these lawyers to produce more and be more productive how may that actually change the overall structure of these legal teams and could we possibly see teams of senior lawyers supported by technology and fractional expertise actually replacing the larger traditional structures i think that um that is one thing that could happen but I don't think that I think there's a kind of tendency to think that because one thing could happen it will happen in every instance there will still be teams of 20, 30 in-house lawyers that's not but it might be that some businesses choose a different model when Uber arrived, black cabs didn't disappear right?

31:33We still use them they're still parallel, it's just some people prefer this technology, some people prefer that technology So I think that it might look like you have one senior lawyer as, and I was speaking to a CLO who raised this. It might be that you have one senior lawyer that is advising the board and close to the management. They have a group of fractional lawyers that they're managing, or they have a small number of permanent hires they're managing. What I think is going to be universally harder to justify is bodies without data. I don't think you're going to be able to sort of say, oh, we're just really busy.

32:11Like we need more people. It's going to be scrutinized in terms of why, what can we do in terms of AI to avoid this situation? Are there other options? And I think one of those other options is quickly becoming, can we get someone in on a fractional basis to manage this thing? And then can we see with data after three months, whether we need to hire someone permanently before we make that decision. And again, very, very important, valid points. When it comes to your own, looking back now, building a legal tech business, because you've gone from being a lawyer, operator, to obviously building this legal tech business today.

32:51What have you found most challenging about the transition and how have you been able to overcome them? I think the build part was actually the most fun part because I'm not a product person. so I didn't spend too much time kind of looking at other products and sort of saying okay well WordSmith have this and Harvey have this so we must have it I just looked at what makes our lives as fractional general counsels difficult and how we can use technology to kind of amplify that and and make it easier. So that part was kind of fun and good. The challenging part is the market education. When you're kind of doing something that hasn't really been done before, and don't get me wrong, kind of alternative legal service providers and the axioms of this world have existed before, but when you're trying to say to companies, this is a different thing that you can do as opposed to, you know, the status quo.

33:54There's a market education piece there. So you can build whatever you like and be all well and good. But actually, the thing that's hard is convincing and telling people, oh, actually, this is an option as well. And most lawyers are not, they're not naturally kind of good at that, right? We don't get trained to sell in the same way we get trained to review documents, right? So that's the bit that candidly everyone on my team is still learning and we're still kind of looking for our funnel and our way to kind of give that motion. We're doing really well so far. But yeah, that was definitely kind of a really nice challenge to have, but a challenge.

34:36Yeah. And again, it probably leads nicely to where I was going to go next, actually, because you're touching on that. How has building Coram changed the way you think about lawyers, clients and the wider legal services market? To be honest, it's excited me about the wider legal services market. The more I build, every day we spend doing this, the opportunity has become like way more obvious. And the more people we speak to that kind of get wow moments from what we show them, whether that be a demo or it's kind of onboarding, it gives us more of a tailwind to sort of think actually why hasn't this happened before and what can we do to kind of like accelerate this and go even harder so I think two things the legal industry is kind of proud you know a lot of people worked really really hard to practice law right Right?

35:29So I'm having conversations in private that are kind of like, actually, there's quite a lot of anxiety about AI. And then in public, it's kind of like, everyone's embracing it and it's amazing and that sort of thing. So I think the two things I've discovered about the legal industry is that maybe not everyone's being as honest as it seems in terms of kind of how it all feels right now at the moment. But two, it is an industry that will embrace change it's done it before right the billable hour is younger than the fax machine so that doesn't have to be like the status quo it has been through rapid change before and it's survived and it will survive this one i think it's definitely open to change but we're proud we're not good at talking about kind of like the things that terrify us about it and i think that's why we tried to hold an open space on the show to to have that you know and be our authentic selves because not all of us have the solutions or no, but leaning in and coming together and all of that good stuff, we can all try and get through and hopefully see the opportunities.