#369 – Paul Rosolie: Amazon Jungle, Uncontacted Tribes, Anacondas, and Ayahuasca

27:40It's like, it's like, go ask Jane Goodall if animals can show compassion. Go talk to anybody that works on a daily basis with animals. And so like to me, there's always a little bit of frustration in hearing people sort of like pleasantly surprised that animals aren't just, these automotons of just what's the word like programmed, you know, nothingness. First of all, what have you learned about life from Jane Goodock? She spoke highly of your book and you listress as one of the mentors, but what kind of wisdom about animals do you draw from her? The wisdom from Jane is so diverse. I mean, first of all, she's someone that, you know, the work that she did at the time, she did it was so incredible because I mean, she was out there at a very young age doing that field work.

28:31She was naming her subjects, which everyone said you shouldn't do. She broke every rule. She broke every rule. She was assigning and everyone said, you know, you're anthropomorphizing these animals by saying that they're doing this and that and she She was like, no, they're interacting. They're showing love, they're showing compassion, they're showing hate, they're showing fear and And she broke straight through all of those things and it paid off in dividends for her. Do you see the animals as having all those human like emotions of anger, of compassion, of longing, of loneliness, from what you've seen, especially with mammals, for different species out there.

29:09Do they have all that? It depends on the animal. If you're talking on the scale of a cockroach to an elephant, it's like a lot of these things. I wonder about this stuff all the time. I'll have a praying mantis on my hand and just go, what is going through your mind? Or you'll see a spider make a complex decision and go, I'm going to make my web there. You know, and you go, how are you? How are you doing this? How are you? Because he made a calculation there, you know, it's smart. I was in the jungle not that long ago and I was walking and all of a sudden this dove comes flying through the jungle Right up to my face Lands on a branch like right here right next to me.

29:43I look at the dove. Dub looks at me and she's like, hey And she's clearly like panting and I'm like, I'm like, why why are you so close? This is weird. She's like, I know and then and then an ornate hawk eagle flies up 10 feet away, looks at both of us and just like scowls and like sticks up its head feathers and then just like flies off. And the dove was like sweet thanks and then fluff flew in the other direction and it was like dude you just used me to save your life. Yeah the dove knew. See this is what because there's different you know there's Mike Tyson and there's Albert Einstein. Yeah and I sometimes I wonder when I look at different creatures even insects like is this my Tyson or is this Einstein yeah like because one or other kinds of personality like there is this a New Yorker or is this a Midwesterner or is this like San Francisco barista of the insects like there's all kinds of personalities you never know so you can't like project like you if you run into a bear and it's very angry they could be just the asshole New Yorker Yeah, sure.

30:44Yeah, sure. That's supposed to be what he's saying about New Yorkers, man. Exactly. Point wall made. So speaking about communicating with a dove, you first met the crew in the Amazon. You talk about JJ as somebody who communicates with animals. What do you think JJ is able to see and hear and feel that others don't that he's able to communicate with animals? When I say this is the most skilled jungle man I've ever seen and I know so many guys in the region He has libraries of information in his cranium that we cannot fathom It's just it's just stunning like you know, I have seen him use medicinal plants to cure things that Western doctors couldn't cure I've seen him navigate in such a way that he's not using the stars.

31:34He's not using any any discernible It's like when elephants, sometimes you'll watch a herd of elephants and they'll be like, yo, let's go, we're going this way and you'll see them sort of communicate, but there's no audible sound. They'll just decide that they're going that way and they'll all do it. JJ has this way in the jungle of, he'll stop and he'll go, wait, and he'll go, what is it? And he goes, there's a herd of peckery coming and I'm like, where? Based on what? Yeah. And he's like, just wait, you'll see. And he'll sit there. experience. You know, it's just experience. It's incredible experience.

32:09It's growing up barefoot in the Amazon and the gift is that he can speak fluent English. And so when I bring tourists and scientists or news reporters down there, he can communicate with them. He's actually good on camera because he doesn't care about cameras. And like, you know, for instance, we were walking up a stream a few months ago and I went, hey, look, Jaguar and he went, oh, and I was like, what? Jaguar tracks and he's like, no, look, look harder. And I was like, the toes are deeper than the back. And he was like, aha, and where are they? And I was like, by the water. And I was like, the Jaguar was drinking.

32:46It was leaning to drink. And he was like, that's right. He's like, now look behind you. I look behind me. And there's scat. There's a big log of Jaguar shit sitting there. And it's got butterflies all over it. Fresh? Pretty fresh. And then there's another one that's less fresh. And so he's teaching me as he does. He's going, look at this, is that one as fresh as this one? No. And then he goes, now look up, look up. There's three vultures above us. The kill is near us. The Jaguar has been coming multiple times to the river to drink as it's feasting on whatever it killed. And he's going, it's within 30 feet of us right now.

33:19And it's like, I'm like, oh look, impression's in the sand. He's like, I just drew 19 conclusions from that. It's like watching Sherlock Holmes at work. It's just like constructing the crime scene. Incredible. Does that apply also to be able to communicate with the actual animals, like read into their body movements directly, into their whatever that dove was saying to you, to be able to understand? Or is that all just kind of taken in the complex structure of the crime scene of the interactions of the different animals of the environment, so on? Like what is that that you're able to communicate with another creature, that he was able to communicate with another creature.

33:57He knows the intention of pose, he knows the habits, he knows the perspective. When when when he talks about animals, he'll talk about each species as if it's a person. So he'll say, oh, oh, the the Jaguar, she never likes to let you see her. And so he'll come back from the jungle and go, oh, I was watching monkeys in this. I this Jaguar was also watching the monkeys, but I was being so quiet, she didn't see me. And then when she see me, she feels so embarrassed and she go. And he'll tell you this story like, as if he had this interaction with like his neighbor. And you know, and he'll be like, oh, the Puka Kung God, it never does that.

34:32You won't see it do that. And so one time, one time he caught a fish and I, I was such a big fish. It was a big, beautiful, pseudo -platti stoma, this tiger catfish, this amazing old fish. And they're all excited to eat it. And I felt so bad watching this thing gasp on the sand. And I went, you know what, we don't need this. This is for fun. I threw back. Oh, no. And then I took my hand and I went, and I made like drag marks like so I could say oh it's it's snuck back in the water and so he walks up he looks at it and he was like I hate you what no I said I mean must have it must have just he went that's not what happens he goes it goes like this when it got he knew the track of a fish and I was like I you I was like all right JJ I'm sorry I'll catch another fish.

35:16So stepping back to that way you open mother of God yeah who was Santiago de Ran and what secret did you tell you. JJ's father was at some point he was a policeman. At some point when he was a teenager, he was working on the boats that before this little gold mining city of Puerto Maldonado grew. The only way to get supplies in was to take canoes up the Temple Pada River up to the next state, which is Puno, and where the mules would come down from the mountains with supplies. and then he'd pilot the boats down, but they didn't have motors at that time. So he would be pulling the boat. So he became this physically terrifying man.

35:57And I met him in when he was in his 80s, and he was still living out in the jungle by himself. And I mean, he's seen an anaconda eat a taper, which is the, you know, a cow -sized mammal in the Amazon. He'd seen uncontacted tribes face to face. He once killed an 11 -foot electric eel, opened the back of the things, Nick removed the nerve that he says was the source of the electric, then he cut his forearm, placed that nerve into his forearm, wrapped it with a dead toad, and claimed that it would give him strength through the rest of his life, and continued to be a jungle badass until the day he quietly leaned back at a barbecue and ceased to be alive.

36:38The man was incredible, but the secret that he told us was that if you want to find big anacondas. If you want to see the Yakumama, he was like, you have to go to the Bawayo, the place of Bullahs, the place that we came to call the floating forest. And so he sent us there and it became like this pilgrimage. And the Amazon, a lot of the creation myths are based around the anaconda coming down from the heavens and carving the rivers across the jungle. And if you look at the rivers, it looks like that. It looks like the path of an anaconda crawling through the jungle, it's even the right color. And so from the reference to the tribes of women, the Amazons to the Anaconda mother, everything in the Amazon is very feminine based.

37:22Even the trees, the largest trees in the jungle, the mother of the forest, the mud that they did aselva is the k -pop tree. And it's just this monster tree, these beautiful ancient trees. And that was the beginning of the transition that we made from me being like, I hate school, I want to go on adventures, you know, Jane Goodall got to do all this amazing stuff. I'm just a kid stuck here to Eventually becoming something that had to do with where my identity became the jungle where my life became the jungle The the secret that he told us opened that door because when we started working with these giant snakes it started getting attention It started getting people to go what are you doing?

38:07And it started, it started allowing me to have experiences that, that solidified and nailed down the fact that this wasn't just like a weekend retreat. This was, this was something that, that I was born to do. And gave you more and more motivation to go into these uncharted territory of the yaku mama yaku mama, which just to step back, what nations are we talking about here? There's some geography. What are we talking about? Where is this? So I'm in Peru. Yeah, we're in Peru. So which is a South American nation? Peru is a South American nation. Brazil has 60 % of the Amazon, which is unfortunate because anything that happens politically in Brazil has a massive impact on the Amazon.

38:53Peru has the Western Amazon. And Ecuador has a little bit of the Western Amazon. and the Western Amazon is where the Andes mountains, the Cloud forests, which is a mega -biodever as biome, falls into the Western Amazon lowlands. And so you have these, the meeting of these two incredible biomes. And that's what makes this like superlative, incredible, you know, glowing moment of life on Earth. So yeah, we're in Peru in the Madre de Dios, which is the mother of God, which I always thought was such a beautiful, you know, the jungle is the source of all life. And so we were with the S .A .A .A. people and they belong to a community that's called in Fierno, which was given by the missionaries who when they tried to go bring these people, Jesus, got so many arrows shot at them that they just called it hell.

39:41And so, so Santiago Durán helped unite these tribes that were sort of scattered through the jungle and get them status, government recognized status as indigenous people. So he was sort of a hero, he was sort of a legend for a lot of the stuff he'd done out barefoot with just like a rifle and a machete in the jungle. He had 19 children and the last one, I think the 20th child that he adopted was a refugee from the shining path that floated down the river and he just took him in. And this is just a guy that was everything he did, like when he died the whole region showed up. It was, he was somebody.

40:20So just the fact that I know him gives me street credit. Like the fact that I knew him, I can go, I knew Santiago and people would, no. I'm like, yeah, yeah. So you have to get integrated to the culture, to the place, to the, I mean, in every single way, which is, which is tough for you for the being from, from New York. Yeah. Yeah. It could have been tough, but it was, I took to it, you know, the jungle, they were very, you know, JJ's teaching me about medicines and we were doing bird surveys and, you know, taking data on McCaw populations and JJ was just like, you really want to, like, he goes, you got to sleep.

40:53And I was like, I only have a few weeks here. I don't know if I'm ever going to come back. I'm never going to sleep. So we'd be out every night looking for all the wildlife we could. I wanted to take photos. I wanted to see things. And then, you know, the exchange came with that he was like, you know, I'm terrified of snakes. And I said, I'll always work with snakes. I said, I'll teach you how to handle snakes. And then we just had this little exchange. And when I left, after my first time back in 2006, I said, how can I help? And they were like, look, we're out here trying to protect this little island of forest that is going to be bulldozed.

41:29And the more people that you can bring, the more knowledge and the more awareness that you can bring to this, it'll help. And so really at that age, at 18 years old, I sort of Started dabbling with the idea of that I could be part of helping these people to protect this place that I loved And of course at that time that idea seemed Like too large of a dream or too large of a of a challenge to that I could actually impact it So what was the journey of looking for these giant snakes Of looking for anaconda's What are anacondas? Anaconda is the largest snake on Earth. So you have articulated pythons in Southeast Asia.

42:12They're actually longer, but anacondas are these massive boas that give live birth and unlike a lot of other species. So an anaconda starts off a little two foot anaconda, just a little thicker than your finger, a little baby. And they're food for cane toads, herons, crocodiles, you name it. They're pretty harmless, defenseless, but as they grow, they're eating the fish, they're eating the crocs, and then they grow a little more, and they're eating things like capy barra, and they're eating larger prey. And then at the end of their life, a female anaconda, you're talking about a 25, 30 -foot, 300 -400 -pound snake with a head bigger than a football.

42:52And these things, that means that they impact the entire ecosystem, which is very unique. moves up the food chain to become basically the apex predator. The apex predator. Yeah. The apex predator of the rivers. And so that's not what's interesting. Just eating your way up the food chain, your way up the food chain, if you can survive. And like they, you know, they're constantly at war with everything else, but you know, so I showed up in the Amazon, I was like, so where are the Anaconda's at? And they were like, oh no, no, it's not like that. They're like, it's you, you have to find these things.

43:21They're, they're subterranean. They're living in the special swamps. They're people kill them. And so we went to the floating forest after we'd come back from an expedition. We'd called like a 12 foot anaconda and it's now it's become like this like classic photo of me and JJ with this anaconda over our shoulders and we were like, we, you know, we 12 days out in the jungle on a hunting trip and we came back and we showed his dad and Santiago looked at us and he was like, that's the smallest anaconda he died of. He's like, you guys are pathetic. Man, 12 foot. And he was like, look, you go to the go.

43:55He was like go he's like I'm giving you permission go to the boy. You'll go to the floating forest And so we went to this place and we reached there at night and it was me JJ and one of his brothers and his brother took one look at it and was like I'm out and he started walking back and Me and JJ get to the edge of this thing and and this is our friendship It's both this two idiots pushing each other farther and farther and like I like put a foot on the On the ground and it all shook and the stars are reflecting on the ground and what we realized is that it's a lake with floating grass on top of it.

44:28And there's islands of grass floating on this lake, very life of pie, and the tops of trees are coming out of the surface of the water. And so we start walking across this and JJ's going, these are big anacondas. And I'm going JJ. That's a two foot wide smooth path sneaking through the grass. And he's an anaconda that big. Yeah. He's going, they're listening.

44:54I like we're walking and we're walking and then it's like, maybe it's like 1 a .m. or something. And it was just like one of those moments where we saw it at the same time. And we're standing by the tail. And the snake was so big that, I mean, this must have been a 25 foot anaconda, dead asleep, with probably a 16 foot anaconda, like sprawled across her. And they're laying in the starlight and we're floating on top of a lake, standing there in the middle of the Amazon and J .J. just I could feel the blood drain out of his face and as like a however old I was you know maybe 20 years old I just said if I if we could somehow show people this we'll be on the front cover in National Geographic and we can protect all the jungle that we want and so I tried to catch it.

45:48Yeah so I jumped on the snake and the only The only measurement I have of this animal is that when I wrapped my arms around it, I couldn't touch my fingers. My feet were dragging, and to her credit, this anaconda did not turn around and eat me, because her head was this way. She reached the edge of the grass island, and she starts plunging into the dark. I'm watching the stars vibrate as this anaconda is going, and I had to make the choice of either going headfirst down into the black, which no thank you, or stopping and just keeping my hand on this thing as it raced by me. And I just felt the scales and the muscle and the power go by and then eventually taper down to the tail until it slipped away into the darkness and I was laying there just panting.

46:35And then I turned around and went, JJ, what the fuck? Like, where were you, man? He was just like completely white circuits blown and I had to go then like, I don't like take care of him. I was like, are you okay? And he was like, no, he just couldn't. And so we came back with that. And then after that, we were like, okay. Clearly, clearly the parameters of reality that we thought were possible are just a tiny fraction of what's out there. We now, that sort of recalibrated us. We were like, okay, we're rubbing up against things that are bigger than we thought were ever possible. And so we were like, okay, now we need to concentrate on this.

47:10So how dangerous is that creature? to humans. To humans not at all. I mean, my, our cooks father -in -law was eaten by an anaconda, but like, you know, then again, like, you see that. Sometimes it happens. It happens. I mean, come on. Every now and then, somebody gets stung by a bee and dies. Like, you know, it's once in a while it happens, but you got to have a really big anaconda really hungry. And like, anybody that works in the wild, I mean, just, you know, if you You walk up to a crocodile, even a giant crocodile. You walk up to the most of the time. They're going to run into the water. They don't want confrontation.

47:48They hunt in their way on their terms sneaky. You're not going to see him. And so with an anaconda, it's like, yeah, you're, I mean, the guy who got eaten, like if you're drunk and you go to the edge of the water and you go for midnight swim by yourself in an Amazonian lake, I mean, whose fault is that? But if you jump on an anaconda, try to, yeah, try to hold on. Then you're safe. Apparently, I mean, I think at this point, we've, you know, the research we've done, I think I've handled or caught, you know, over 80 Anacondas in the field, and not one of them has bitten me. They always choose flight over fight.

48:23They're like, just leave me alone, let me go. I'm just gonna crawl under this thing. They're not an aggressive animal. I mean, no snake. No, I actually like, I kinda like, the only time I get particular with like, you know, the words is like, people go, that's an aggressive, black mombas are aggressive. I said, no, no snake is aggressive. A rattlesnake is going to rat all to say, hey, back up. Cobber is going to stand up and show you its hood. And people go, oh, he's being aggressive. No, he's not being aggressive. He's going, don't step on me. Don't make me do this. They're actually being very peaceful.

48:53That's the way I look at it. Because if there was a cobra in the corner of this room right now, he would crawl under the curtain and we'd never see him again. Yeah, it's like Jenga's con before conquering the village as he always offered for them to join the army. Doesn't need to be like this. Yeah, join us. Nobody gets destroyed if you want to be proud and fight for your country then Exactly, okay, so how do you catch actually? Let's the back because there is in part you are a bit of a snake whisperer. So what what is it that? That others don't understand that you do about snakes was maybe a misconception.

49:37What have you learned from the language you speak that snakes understand? I don't know. It's just an animal that has many times in my life I've been responsible for helping. I started catching snakes when I was very young. I'd watched you were going to go out and catch a garter snake or a black rat snake in New York. Then I had a rule. I said I have to catch a hundred non -venomous snakes before I'm allowed to handle a venomous snake if I ever need to handle a venomous snake And then you know, it's on a trail one time. I think in Haramon State Park and some guy, you know Like some big hero he tells us you know, he's like back up I'm gonna get this and he like picks up a stick and he like goes to like assault this poor copperhead that's sitting on the trail And so like at like 16 years old that to go and like shoulder this guy out of the way And I like got the thing by the tail and used a stick to very gently just put it off the trail Copperhead was not going to do anything to him, but he wanted to, you know, beat his chest and show his wife that he was tough.

50:33But then in India, you know, I've lived in India for five years at this point in and out periodically. And snakes are always getting into people's kitchens. One time we had a King Cobra get into someone's kitchen, an 11 foot snake, like a monster, like a god of a snake. This thing stood up, you know, it would stand up and be able to look at you over the table. And this terrifying monster thing, giant gorilla dog thing, like we caught it with one of the local snake catchers and we brought it out and he goes, you know, I wonder why it was in the kitchen. Yeah, looking for food and they go, no, they eat snakes.

51:12King cobra, Opefio Fagus Hannah, they eat snakes. And he goes, she's thirsty. So we got a bottle of water and we got footage of this and we, she's standing up. She's going, don't make me kill you, don't make me kill you. You're scaring me right now. I don't want to kill you. We took the bottle of water, we poured it on her nose, and she started drinking. You could see her just drinking. And the snake just took this long drink, she drank a whole water bottle, and then said, thank you so much, and crawled off. And it's like, to me, the fact that people are scared of snakes, they have symbolic hatred of snakes.

51:47You know, you know, someone's evil and sneaky, we call them a snake. And like to me, it's like when I take volunteers or researchers or students out into the jungle and we find an Emerald tree boa or an Amazon tree boa or or a vine snake and it's like this It's one of the few animals that you can't really catch a bird and show it to people You're gonna scare the bird. It's feathers are gonna come out. You might give it a heart attack Snakes you can lift up a snake You know if there's a snake in the room right now I could lift it up and say Lex here. This is how you hold it and we could interact calmly with this thing and then put it back on its branch and then it'll go.

52:19And I've seen what that does to people. I've seen how the wonder in their eyes. And so to me, snakes have always been this incredible link to teach people about wildlife, about nature. Because they have naturally a lot of fear towards this creature and to realize that the fear is not justified, is not grounded, or is not as deeply grounded in reality. Of course, there's always New Yorker snakes, right? There's always going to be an asshole snake here in there. Coming for me, man.

52:49Okay, so back to me on the con. How do you catch in the con? Like what? How do you, because it's such a 25 foot or even 12 foot giant snakes. How do you, how do you deal with this creature? How do you interact with them? We had to learn how to do that because one of the first ones we caught that I would say maybe like a 16 footer, which is no joke of a snake, you know, girth of a basketball, let's say. You know, we're on the canoe and this is the early days, like, you know, now we're at a whole different level, but this is back when we were barefoot and shirtless and just guys in the Amazon. And JJ is like, you know, I just listened to him.

53:27He'd be like, get off the boat, you come from the top, we're gonna come from the bottom. So, okay, I just did as I was told. I came in, the snake is all curled up, dead asleep, She's got some butterflies on her eyes trying to get salt and stuff and all of a sudden I see the tongue So I'm like she's awake and I'm like guys guys guys She's and that like they're they're paying attention to not crashing the boat to getting over there And we're all trying to run snake starts going into the water So I run ahead grab this snake get her by the head. So you got her by the head You think okay? Can't she can't get me I got her right behind the head and it's about this thick the neck.

54:01What's that feel like? I'm excited to interrupt, like grabbing this thing with a giant head. It's exciting, it's amazing. It's scary. How hard is it to hold? It's not that hard to hold. The scary part is the moment of, it's like if you've ever done like a cliff dive or something, it's that moment where you go, do it, do it, the time, like do it. And if your body's going, do not do that. And then you're like, I gotta do it. And you do it. Because you can't just gently like flirt with it, you have to grab the pole. And it's like, it's like crossing the street when there's a bus coming. it's like you hesitate, it's more dangerous.

54:32You know, so like you just, you go for it and I got her and I was like, I got her. And then a coil goes over my wrists. And all of a sudden my wrists slap together and you feel this squeeze that can crush the bones out of an animal bigger than me. And the next coil comes very quickly over my neck. And now I'm on my knees with my arms tied. If I wanted to let go of the snake, I couldn't. And my shoulders are coming together and my collarbone is about to break. And I tried to yell for JJ and all that came out was, oh, there's nothing. And so that's what they do to their prey. So I attacked, as far as the snake knows, I attacked.

55:04She doesn't know that I just want to measure her. You started out as the big spoon, but then the snake became the big spoon. Very much became the big spoon. And I would say I was 15 seconds away from having my entire ribcage collapsed and then JJ showed up and grabbed the tail and just started unwrapping this thing. And then we got, but now we have a system. Now we know, I've always, I've done, I've gotten more head catches than anybody, so I'm usually point guy. And you get the point guy. I'm the point guy. Okay. The taking the big risky first step. Yes. So it could be argued that there's a similarly large risk for the tail guy because the Anaconda's defense is to take a giant projectile shit.

55:47So the person that gets the tail is going to smell like Anaconda for at least a week. Yes, it's the least buzzing. You're taking the most dangerous one there. They have the least pleasant job. This is fascinating. But what's really fascinating though is that because they're the apex predator, they're eating the fish, they're eating the birds, they're eating everything, and everything in this riparian ecosystem is absorbing the mercury that's coming off the gold mining in the region. And so anaconda can be indicative for us of how is mercury moving through this ecosystem. And this is a region where we've lost hundreds of thousands of acres to artisanal gold mining where they use mercury to bind the gold.

56:26They cut the forest, burn the forest, and then they run water through the sand, and the sand particles have bits of gold in it, not chunks, but just little almost microscopic flecks of gold. And then they use the mercury to bind that, and then they burn off the mercury, and that vapor goes up into the clouds. So just like everything else, it's all connected down there and then rains down into the rivers and so the people in the region are having birth defects from the amount of mercury that's in the water. And so we were starting at one point when we were doing most of our Anaconda research, we were learning things like these animals actually aren't just ambush predators, which is what most of the literature would tell you is that Anacondas are ambush predators.

57:04No, they actually go hunting. They'll go find clalix and salt deposits in no way there.

57:12They'll samples to find out if anacondas could be used to study how mercury is moving through the ecosystem. So that was really, it became, can we use these animals not only as ambassadors for wildlife because everybody wants to see the anacondas, but also, what can we learn from studying this very, very little understudy, PECS predator? One of the things you can learn is how mercury moves through the ecosystem, which can damage the ecosystem in all kinds of different ways. Yeah, it's brutal, man. The gold mining that's happening down there is, it's funny because we've been hearing a lot recently about the cobalt mines in Africa.

57:48And it's like, where we are in the Amazon, we were down there with ABC News. I want to say like a year and a half ago, with my friend Matt Gutman, who's the chief correspondent for ABC, and he wanted to see the Amazon fires. He wanted to see some wildlife. He wanted to see the areas that we're protecting. and then he goes, I want to see the gold mining areas. And I'd never gotten in so deep, but we met these Russian, you can't go with the proving, they will kill you. Like our lawyer's father was assassinated for standing up to the gold miners. There was two Russian guys though who had a legal mining concession somehow way out past the machine gun guarded limit of the pump us, which is where they do all this gold mining.

58:30And we got in there and took footage of the desert that is forming in what used to be the headwaters of the Amazon rainforest. And it's like there is a massive global scale ecological crime happening down there that you can see from space, from this unregulated gold mining. And the cops can't go there because they will be murdered. It's completely lawless. What's the machine gun limit? Exactly. It's the border of this area that they call the pumpus, which is where the rainforest has been cut and completely destroyed. And it looks like Mars. It's just sand. And inside of this area are gold miners.

59:07And we tried to get in there to film years ago, and there's just a lot of guys with machine guns who don't let that happen. And what the Russian guys had access somehow. They'd come down with a bit of money and they had a new system. And actually what was interesting is while I was in there, they're very friendly and really too friendly gold miners. And they, one of them while I was there, he kind of tapped me on the shoulder. He was like, look at those guys. He was like, those guys over there. He goes, I just heard them say your name. And he goes, that's not a good thing. He goes, they know exactly who you are.

59:43And he goes, I wouldn't keep posting to Instagram about gold mining in the Amazon. And I was like, thanks for the warning. And then in June, somebody pulled up beside me on a motorcycle and I got a more stern warning. warning, but they pay attention to the flow of information because they don't want the world to find out. Oh, the last thing they want is to be shut down, but the gold miners are notorious for you know, just whacking people and throwing them in a pile of, you know, gold mining leftovers. It's really like the Peruvian government has to get the military to go after them. The work we've done with gold miners, converting them into conservationists has all been like, I mean, I've seen the Peruvian Navy come down and literally blow up gold mining barges and, you know, it's a war.

1:00:29It's a war being fought in the Amazon. So it's possible to convert them into conservationists? What's that process like? What? Or is that like a, you say they're ingest? No, I say that in an absolute sincerity. We went up River, up the Malanowski River several years ago, and I think it was 2018, and everyone, everyone was like, you are going to die. Like, you will be shot and killed. And the reason we were able to do it with relative safety was that the gold miner that we were going with was the brother -in -law of one of my closest friends down there, our expedition chef and one of the directors of Jungle Keepers.

1:01:08And they said, look, you can go. Just keep a low profile. And so I went up with a photographer and we spent a week there and dead animals everywhere, deforestation everywhere. I mean, the things that we saw were so horrible. And we're living with these gold miners that are, you know, they're getting their gold, they're burning off the mercury. I watched the guy smoking a cigarette, burning the mercury off of his gold with the vapor going straight into his face with his child right there. I mean, unbelievable negligence of just sanity, just, and then towards the end of the week, the peruvian navy comes down the river and everyone starts scrambling.

1:01:45and I was like, I'm just gonna sit here with my hands up, because, you know, and they didn't even stop. They found the goldmining barge. You know, they have a floating thing in the river that just plums the bottom of the river, just sucks all the sediment up. And they stopped and they strapped a bunch of explosives to this motor and good lord, the sound of this explosion. And there was just hot metal raining down all over the place and then they just went. A bunch of guys in fatigues and they just kind of like, looked at us like, peace. And I sat there with this goldminer and I went, Now what?

1:02:15And he went, well, now I got to go get a new motor and I went, why don't you just do something else? And he goes, what else is there? And I went, look what we do. And I sat there with my phone and I was like, see this? These are pretty tourists. And we feed them food. And we show them tarantulas and macaues and things. And he looked at this and he went, wow. He goes, he goes, that looks like so much fun. And I went, it is so much fun. I said, we show people, we bring students to the jungle. He goes, so you're saying if I build you a lodge, you'll bring people, I said, yeah. And I came back a year later and he sat there with a chainsaw, a hand saw, and some nails.

1:02:51And he cut down like 17 palm trees and he built an ecotourism lodge. So you give them another channel of survival, making money. And that's what we've been doing through jungle keepers for loggers and for all kinds of extractors. It's just saying, look, what do you make? You make $15 a day destroying the ancient trees of the jungle. What if we paid you $35 a day to have a uniform and a job and health insurance and security and you just protect it and use all of the jungle knowledge you've gained as a logger to protect this place? Who are the loggers trying to destroy the Amazon? Can you say a little bit more about it as a threat to the Amazon rainforest?

1:03:36A lot of them are really close friends of mine. They're people that need to make a living. And they're jungle people who, you know, the rainforest is a very challenging, especially the Amazon is a very challenging environment. So you have these people who, they have a chainsaw, they have a job opportunity, they go out and they cut the trees. And a lot of these guys grew up fishing, they grew up in the jungle, they know how to do it. And so for them, it's a way to like, they also love it. So this is the thing, these are outdoorsmen. And these are guys that love the jungle. And so they, you know, in the 90s, we had the Mahogany boom, where they went out after the Mahogany, and you can almost can't find a Mahogany tree in the jungle anymore.

1:04:14And if you wanna talk about like carbon sequestration in the rainforest, the ancient hardwoods hold like 60 % of the carbon of the whole rainforest. They have an outsized disproportionate mass from that ancient density of the wood. And so these loggers go out and they cut the wood that's most valuable and then they bring it back to town and they sell it and then people like us buy it and put it on our kitchen floors. And so the thing is, when I got to the Amazon, it was, you know, loggers of the bad guys. And if you talk to a lot of like the PhDs that I worked with down there were, you know, always very at odds with the miners, at odds with the loggers.

1:04:56And then I'd be with JJ and JJ would sit down and he'd be like, hey, let's pour a drink. Oh, they have my sat, though, let's all sit down. like we'd all be chilling and throwing them back with a bunch of loggers. And then those, the opportunity through not vilifying these people came to be like, oh, these are, these guys are great. And then of course out in the wild every now and then something will happen. You'll see somebody's boat flipped over and you go help them out. And then that creates a certain type of kinship. So they're ultimately people who love the same thing you love. Often, yeah.

1:05:30Even if they don't love it, they're people that aren't necessarily looking to destroy it. I've met loggers who have looked at trees there about to cut and gone, ah, this is a shame. Start it up. You know, they're just like, this is where the paycheck comes from. Let's come back briefly to Anaconda's. Can you tell me this whole situation with discoveries eaten alive? There's some drama and controversy around that. Can you explain that whole saga with discovery with with your whole effort? Maybe outside of even the drama the initial thing Which I know feel you're sufficiently insane to actually do of being eaten by an icon.

1:06:13Is that actually possible to survive something like that? I mean if it anaconda swallows you while you're wearing the suit that they made maybe but that was In hindsight whether that was the result of look I go to the jungle and you start seeing these beautiful places, these incredible species, you start developing a relationship with these animals and then you watch it get destroyed. Every year we watch it burn. Every year places that are crucial to my soul I have seen leveled and turned to ash and at some point we started going, someone has to do something about this And you look to your right and you look to your left and there is no one because it's the middle of the Amazon and The rainforests have been being destroyed since the 70s.

1:07:04It's a cliche and So we started trying to do something about it and so I started putting a little bit more emphasis on On publicity a little bit more emphasis on getting the message out there And so I started trying to see how what was gonna work? You know you just start firing shots in the dark and seeing and you know JJ's going you have to help us do something in a Okay, you know, and so from 18 years old now now I'm 23 years old and all of a sudden This place isn't isn't far into me anymore. It's it's home And and so when you're trying to think of all the different ways you can bring attention to this place that you care about This being destroyed.

1:07:42Yeah, you're standing next to a boulder of progress of of destruction And it's about to roll onto the forest and just destroy it and snuff out all that life and no one's there to do anything about it And so you go, is there any way that I could put myself in front of this boulder and hold it back? And you're talking about, you know, the global economic reality. It's just a massive, it's systemic. So what's the most dramatic possible thing I could do? Exactly. So when you find yourself flown to LA as a 23 year old dude and you're sitting there with some guy who's like spinning a pan and got his feet up on the desk and going, what can you show us down there?

1:08:26And you go, I could show you the biggest anacondas in the world. And we could talk about mercury and bioaccumulation. And we could show people how these animals are misunderstood. And we go on a big expedition and we could be the coolest show ever. And he goes, yeah, not good enough. And so that's that that's cycled through a bunch of times. And someone at some point in one of those meetings said, you know, what if we show people that Anaconda really can eat humans. And I went, how is that a good show? You want me to feed someone to an Anaconda? And I said, I mean, and I kind of joked like, what if, you know, I said, the only way that's feasible is if you like make a suit with a breathing apparatus and let the snake eat you and then come back out safely and make sure you don't hurt the snake.

1:09:05And they're like, kid, you're on. And I was like, oh, shit. So I should mention a small tangent. I think I mentioned to you offline, due to travel troubles. So I traveled to the totally wrong part of the United States. I'm my way to Boston. And on my way to Boston, I did a conversation with Mr. Beast, Jimmy. And I got in chance to hang out with him for the day. And one of the things we did is have a lengthy brainstorm session with this team, or I was observing it. Sure. But it was interesting because he's probably way better at that conversation that you had with the guy in LA, then the guy in LA obviously because he's made, he's revolutionizing entertainment and he's also doing philanthropy, which he's trying to figure out how to help the world with that kind of stuff.

1:10:01So I would love to actually send him a message to see what his thoughts, just brainstorm. He's so strong at this. Literally taking the situation you're facing. Here's the place that I really care about is being burned down, it's being destroyed. What's the sexy video? Yeah. How do you get people to watch something that's, you know, we all change a channel when they show us the kids in Africa with the swollen stomachs. Nobody wants to see it. And it's like, with the rain forest, like we know, we know, we know. And I'm going, I could give data all day long. I could show photos of burning forest.

1:10:36And so I was looking for what would do it. So the Eatin' Alive thing, without spending too much time on a massive misstep was, I agreed to do it. They paid me at the time more money than I had made before, which I very much needed, because nobody pays you to be a conservationist. So I was a very poor 23 year old. It was like, yes, I would love that, please. And I thought, you know what, this is the start of a TV career. We got shafted so bad. I mean they used Somehow they changed our voices they changed the things we said they changed the message of the film There's one point where we had caught a 19 foot snake and I was holding her head and I said this is such a beautiful animal The queen of the Amazon.

1:11:19This is such a great moment for me. I kissed her on the head I said she's made so many babies look at the scars as talking about just the poetry of this incredible dragon And then the producer goes yeah, yeah, that's great Listen, if that was to bite you, what would happen? And I was like, oh, well, if it bit you, you know, you'd bleed out because it would last to rate down to the, that's what they put in the film. And so day of, they didn't show me the film until the night before I went on Matt Lauer's show. And I said, I am not endorsing this film. And they had called it expedition on the call sheet.

1:11:50They called it expedition EA, expedition Amazon. All of a sudden they changed it to eat in the life. And I went, wait, guys, wait, wait, wait. I said, you're going to make people think that it actually happened, not that we're attempting it. And they, and I say, I'm not, and then they called me and they said, you better, you're going on live TV tomorrow. They said, you let us know what level of control we need to show for you, right? There was very threatening phone call. And so I had to go out and smile for the cameras and endorse something that was a train wreck. And the scientific community was like, you're an idiot.

1:12:21We don't want to ever see you again. I lost a lot of opportunities. is PETA came, which you know, PETA whatever, but PETA came out, people were like, you were trying to hurt a snake, which I would never do. And then the American public was like, you know, you said you were gonna get eaten by a snake and you didn't. And so everyone was pissed. I basically had to exile myself to India for like six months and just, I mean, I had death threats coming through all my messages. People were furious with me. What gave you strength to that? How difficult was that psychologically? Just everything you care about, being completely kind of flipped upside down.

1:12:53I've spent so much time on the ground with the local people learning from the wildlife. It's such a devout and important thing to me. And it got turned into a side show. It got turned into a joke. And then not just a joke, it got turned into that I'm somehow bad to animals.

1:13:13I'm irresponsible scientifically. Jimmy Kimmel told me to have sex with a hippo as my next stunt. It was like, it got really ugly. And it misfired so bad. And when you hear these motivational speakers talk about, you just got to keep trying. And sometimes you're going to fail hard. It was like that one I got hit in the head with a baseball bat. That one was tough. And at the time I was like, I'm fine. And I was like, I'm going to go away for a while. And I learned a lot, though. Like at this point, I'm still glad I did it. Because, man, did I learn a lot about what a room full of people that you don't know who could look you in the eye and shake your hand and then say, trust us.

1:13:53Ooh, boy. Do you have on a human level of resentment towards discovery, towards the people involved? Were you able to forgive them? Nah, I don't care. It literally, that's what they do. They literally put out a documentary saying that mermaids were real. You know, it's a minute, wait a minute. They're not. Listen. No. As that did, I'm not even touching that one. This is true. I mean, it's true. There is a documentary where they duke a bunch of scientists who are like oceanographers and they like showed them ancient footage of, you know, mariners saying that seals were murmurs. Who cares? It's, it's, it's, it's, I was young.

1:14:33I got brought to Hollywood and I got spit out the other side. And that's on me. That's not their fault. You know, you, does that, you know, you don't, does that parable about the frog who gives the scorpion a ride across the water. And then at the end, he says, I'll give you a ride. Just don't sting me. and they get to the other side and scorpion stings them. And the frog goes, why did you do that? And the scorpion goes, I'm a scorpion. That's not their fault. It's in my nature. But now that you've become much more well -known and much more successful, what you do, you have a platform. Can you return to those people and use it the machine to get more and more attention?

1:15:10Is that something you work on? Or do you prefer to work completely outside? But I think that most of the success that we've had now in protecting the rainforest and it's the levels that we've reached are so far. I think back to those barefoot days of catching snakes with JJ on the boat. And now the massive ecological reserve we have and the team of Rangers and the converted loggers and all of that is because of the ability to communicate and to show people, but that's all been through social media. And so I'm open to the fact, you know, if somebody came and gave a sort of like Bordanian pass where they said, look, you can be yourself, you can swear, you can fart, you can smoke, you can do whatever you want to do.

1:15:53Go out there and show us the real thing I would love to. But now I know how those contracts need to be. I need to have right through refusal and they can't change them. And so I'd almost rather just do it like the way I think like Mr. Beast does stuff where it's like you just you get a crew guys and some seed money and go film the episodes and put it out. I mean, a committee never helped real art be better. It has to come from the source of inspiration. So you get, I think, you know, you get J .J. and a crew of people with a guy's in Africa that I'm working with right now doing elephant conservation and like, but you got to show real.

1:16:29I mean, look, that's why that's why, I mean, look, that's why Joe Rogan is important right now. That's why you're important right now is because it's not being filtered through this ridiculous system of polishing it and dumbing it down. Yeah, that's why Joe has been an inspiration. You don't need a crew of a bunch of people. You don't need a crew period. You don't need to use one or two other people. In my case, you don't need anybody. I've been doing this by requirement. I just need to be by myself. There's a few other folks now that are helpful to editing and so on, but it's just they make life more awesome as opposed to a boss that's a creative director.

1:17:10Somebody told me actually I was visiting LA. I think it was in LA that they were saying that now for all intimate scenes and Hollywood movies there's an intimacy director so when there's two people having sex there's a third person that ensures that unfilm so it's not real but there's still intimacy. There's a third person then ensures that like everyone is comfortable and the actors say that this like always ruins the chemistry of the scene. So it's a very Hollywood thing. I understand that it's creepy. I also understand. Thanks, Harvey Weinz. And it's usually I think comes from the director pushing things too hard.

1:17:52If you just leave it to the actors, they know their boundaries, they control their own boundaries. So the intimacy director is more for like the director pushing thing. I understand the logic. Let's make sure that we don't have anything happen here that shouldn't be happening. I get it, but yeah. But no, I think that authenticity is the greatest currency. And I think that in order for me to tell the stories that I can tell, like, what changed the game for me was, I want to tell you this story. Sure. So in 2019, I mean, the Amazon fires started popping off and we had just gone to film like a month earlier, which films like a small documentary.

1:18:36And they'd been following me as if I was on a solo, which you know, we did the best we could. I lived on my own. But as we were driving, we passed a spot where the flames were 70 feet tall. The forest was being destroyed. And I went out there with my phone, which overheated in like two minutes and said, you can't use it, but for a second I was out there in the flames picking up animals and throwing them off. So I try and just get them cooled off. I was trying to get snakes out of there. Everything was the birds are flying and I fucking lost it. I was red -eyed, I was crying and I was going, this is happening every fucking day.

1:19:10I was screaming and it's the first time that I'd done that because I've seen the burning so many times and I just lost it that day and I don't know what made me pull out my phone because usually in those intense moments I say forget the documentation. This is real life. We got stuff to do and I'm doing I'm not documenting and then a month later I'm home and I'm in New York and all of a sudden I see these articles like you know the Amazon's burning worse this year Then it was last year and blah blah blah and I was like this you know fucking and I threw it up on Instagram like eight o 'clock at night and I'd never Like I'd never cursed on Instagram.

1:19:45I don't know you know why I just Denver did and I my phone was on a hundred percent and I put on top of the refrigerator and I went to bed. I woke up in the morning and my phone was on the floor on 2 % and it was ringing off the hook and it was like the news. And they're like, are you the guy that posted that viral video about the Amazon and I was like, what? And that was the start. That's where it broke. And that's where we went from barefoot in the Amazon to all of a sudden, I was talking head for three weeks and going around on all these news stations. And all of a sudden I was like the spokesperson person for the Amazon and JJ's calling me and he was like, go, go, go, go, go, go, like get us, get us that support.

1:20:23And it was just, you know, so communicating with people and bringing them into that reality and whether it's, you know, Rhino poaching and elephant poaching or the Amazon being destroyed, it's like to me, it's like being able to take people into that is something that I would love to do. Yeah. And you do it directly with authenticity and your Instagram. People should definitely follow your Instagram. I think I think Rogan falls here in Instagram too. Well, the end of that story actually kind of involves him because yeah, because I went to all these news outlets and I was living in green rooms and traveling around and I was all strung out and I hadn't seen anybody I actually know in a few weeks which was starting to get to me and I finally got home and I went to like a family party and everyone was like dude you've been it's been crazy and I was like yep and then I left and my cousin Michael calls me and he's screaming and I'm going what what what what and he goes Joe Rogan just shared it, Joe Rogan, you shared it.

1:21:16And everyone was losing their shit and it was so amazing. And it was like, yeah, that's when it really took off. And what happened as a result of all of this is that a Canadian entrepreneur who started light speed reached out and several months later after COVID, after that boom, you know, I'd been in the game for maybe 13 years or something. Had no money, no savings, no job, no nothing. and after that great publicity thing, nothing happened. The waves came and everything got real exciting. Everybody reached out and they said, we care so much. Nothing happened though. We can run into battle, but if we don't have arrows in the quiver, what can we do?

1:21:59And I actually, I made a phone call to my friend Mosin, right at the start of COVID and I was going through divorce and I was broke and I said, I'm gonna get a job. I said, I give up. So this is stupid. I said, the Equatorial and Businesses done, Jungle Keepers has dried up. We're done. And then this guy, Dax, to still have a call me on the phone and said, listen, I'm in, what do we got to do? And so if the analogy was me and JJ and a few other people trying to hold this boulder back from just destroying the rainforest, all of a sudden, Dax comes in like a Titan and just puts his arm out and just goes, I'm gonna help.

1:22:33And he gave us the funding to start actually developing a Ranger program, to start actually bringing loggers to be protectors of the forest to be supporting smaller conservation things. And now we're protecting 50 ,000 acres of rainforest. We're protecting entire streams and ecosystems that I love. And we're soon going to double that. And it's like this whole thing. So yeah, the communication of these things is crucial. And I actually think it's incredible that social media has played such a big role in it. Well, I mean, just because I know Joe well, and I love him so much, I definitely think you should do his podcast but also just be friends with him I think you guys.

1:23:15He's one, you know, not the meme but he's one with nature and I'm much more with the, I'm one while I do appreciate and love nature. I also love technology and robots and so on so we're that meme type of way were very different. Well, either way, at some point, make sure you tell the guy thank you because it definitely really helped push us over that limit where, you know, if enough people see it, you get someone like Dax, who says, I can help and I have the resources to help. And that changed our whole lives. He's everything. Back to the jungle. You had a bunch of interactions with Jaguars. He's still alive.

1:24:01Like what? Man, dude, Jags, Jags aren't the Jags. I'll tell you this, Jags are not the danger. The falling trees are the danger. I'll tell you some elephant stories, and then you'll wonder why I'm still alive. But Jags, I've just one, you know, so JJ started and Santiago, his dad started challenging me to do solos. Go out alone into the wild style. You know, I'd have a hammock, a headlamp, three days worth of food, some fish hooks, some machete. That's it. And so like one of the stories that that happened early on was I was out there and it was raining and I was lost and this is how we test your jungle knowledge.

1:24:41Can you survive out there? Do you know how to find food? Have you listened to the things that we taught you? And there was one night that I was in a hammock and a jaguar came up and I was asleep when it happened and she came up right next to my head and she was And I could hear her smelling me. And then my first instinct was to turn on my headlamp and just the sound of my arm moving against the material. And she just, like she just, right here, I could feel her breath. And I just lay there in the dark. And that's one of those moments where you go, you really learn a lot about yourself. Because I wasn't scared.

1:25:20I felt like I understood the intentions of the cat if she was hunting I'd already be dead. She was curious and I was lost and I didn't know if I was ever gonna get out of that jungle, but what she did was Energize me because it was an experience like the giant anaconda where I said this is so wild That it's that it's so almost cinematically outside the realm of what I thought my life could be like that it made me like wait Because the previous day I was lost, tired, confused, kind of devastated tale between my legs. After that, I was like, man, you've been waiting for this your whole life. Go get it.

1:26:00And I woke up and I was like, I am going to navigate. Even though I've been in this swamp for three days, I'm going to find my way out of this swamp. And she just breathed fire into me where it was like, it was like, if that's possible, I could be six inches away from a jaguar's face. Then I got that energy from her. So you're able to start to really hear and feel the The jungle around you. Yeah, that was a Those assigned you know what you're doing. It really felt like a sign. I really did. How do you survive in a solo? So I'll hike through the jungle. What are the different components with different dangers?

1:26:34She said you had a hammock you had some food. What kind of food by the way we're talking about? Nuts stuff that won't go bad because you can't so you can't really start a fire in the Amazon like I'm a good, I mean, I camp all over the place. I'm a wilderness guide. Starting a fire in the Amazon is futile. In fact, a lot of survival manuals will tell you, don't do it because if you're really lost, it'll break your spirit. You're not going to be able to do it. That's dark. Yeah, they're like, don't even try it. But you can still get hyperthermia from, if you get wet and you lay out in the jungle, you could, you know, you could still, exposure can still get you.

1:27:09So you want fire. I even, in the beginning, I used to bring like ramen noodles, which is, which is, the nutritionally is irrelevant. And so I started bringing like nuts and then supplementing that with fish, which forced me to become a very good fisherman. And now of course, J .J. knows that he can like, they can cut certain roots and they bash it up and they put it in the stream. And the fish just float to the top and they take with them. So like he's got like, he's got all the cheat codes. Whereas like I'm sitting there with a hook and then he's like, he'll go, now find bait. And I go bait. And the most competitive ecosystem on Earth, good luck finding a worm.

1:27:44You can't do it. What does JJ do? He takes the machete, looks at his foot, cuts a slug of callus off of his heel because he's got this thick rhino skin, puts that on the hook, catches a six -inch fish, chops it in half, puts it on a big hook and in 15 minutes, he's got a four -foot giant catfish that could feed a family of 16, and he's happy. I'm sitting there, I'm like, I'm gonna try to like stick a beetle on a on a fishing hook and like, you know. Do you have just a line in a hook or is there a rod to? Just a line in a hook and then you just chop a rod and tie it to the, you know, you just chop a little sapling.

1:28:19So are you still able to start a fire or no? I like for the food that I bring to not be fire dependent. Sure. And so if I have some nuts, I can shove in a few, enough calories to get me through the night or like and leave a fishing line out and there'll be something there in the morning. But yes, I can start a fire, but a lot of times what I'll do is I'll bring a flask and not with alcohol but with diesel. And so you have a tunicand and you put the diesel and the diesel and the diesel with the local guys do. Everything I do, I'm sure there's going to be someone listening to this and it's like, how could you do that?

1:28:52And it's like, yeah, this is what we do down there. Sorry. It's a tunicand. You pour a little bit of diesel in it. It burns slow. You light it and you put your sticks. You make your pyramid over that and eventually that will burn through the moisture. And finally, you'll get a very reluctant little fire enough to burn, you know, to make yourself like a cup of tea or to pour that into the noodles, something, something, or you just need a fish raw. The how important is it the stage dry? Is it basically impossible? It's impossible to stage dry. You're wet all the time. You're wet all the time. What does that mean?

1:29:21That means infections are more efficient. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know if you saw the picture in my book where I have the yellow spots. Yeah. So yeah, there's a picture with your entire face consumed with yellow spots is basically I guess that's Merse. Yep. Oh boy. So how did that happen? What was the infection like? Yeah. And how crazy are you for letting that infection stay in you for a prolonged period of time without treating it? Or you had no choice? No, I did have a choice. I was 19 years old and I was taking care of a giant anteater that was orphaned. And this is like my dream animal. Yeah.

1:30:02And she was mine. And my job was to teach her the jungle. And so when I started like noticing that I had an infection and that I was I had I think I'd dangate at the time too I went back to town Probably picked up Merse in the hospital where I got tested Came back into the jungle and then got progressively sicker and sicker and white weaker and weaker as I was two weeks three weeks in the jungle And it got to the point where my vision went black and white and I passed out one day and and I don't know why but at the time I had shaved that day and And when I woke up the next morning, I couldn't open my eyes because the pus had come out of my eyes and out of my pores and my face, all those little micro cuts.

1:30:43And the pillow was stuck to my face. And I was stuck up river with no help at 19 years old. And also when you see that picture, you can imagine that I assumed that my life was over because I didn't know what it was. And I also didn't assume that, or at the very least, I figured I'd be disfigured the rest of my life. I didn't think there was any getting better from that. And so I remember sitting by the side of the river praying that a boat would come by, but it was the rainy season And there aren't going to be any boats because the river is psychotic and so It was a long time before I got back to town and I didn't want to leave the anteater But it became like I was like I realized I was dying and then I finally got a boat With some loggers a death boat just loaded with These guys were had had gone into the jungle and shot everything they could and taken all the babies and they were gonna go sell them.

1:31:31So it was like baby monkeys and two cans and birds and cages and pieces of crocodiles and anaconda skins and jaguar skins rolled up and it was just like I was just laying there with all these dead animals in the boat with all the flies on my face and got back to the hotel, called my mother, said, please book me a flight out like today, like today. And then I sat on the plane and somebody sat next to me on the plane and I had a hood on and I do remember that in my in the haze at this point I was having trouble staying conscious, but I do remember that she like looked over like trying to see what was sitting next to her and then she got up and never came back.

1:32:09And when I got to immigration in New York, you know, the cop, you know, what he like takes my passport and he goes, yeah, he goes, so what are you doing in Peru? He's looking down and he goes, yeah, he like holds up the passport, looks at the passport, looks at my face, he goes, bo buddy. What the fuck? And I said, no, that's what he was like, I'm trying to get home to go to the hospital. he goes, he stamps it, he goes, go, go, go, go, God bless, God bless. He's like, oh shit. Yeah. And then they put me in the room in the hospital with like the hazmat suits and they didn't know what it was. And I spent like five days on IV antibiotics with like four different things running through my veins.

1:32:39And the doctors are like, don't let it go that close. They're like, you want real close on that one. Yeah, that's what that picture. And I mean, people should check out the book just to see the picture. Because I imagine you just laying there, unable to see have a fever probably so you're like half hallucinating. Yep. And there's no there's no boat. There's no no way out. There's no help coming. Plus there is this creature who you've become a parent of. Yeah. That you love. Yeah. Boy that's a dark place to be as a 19 -year -old. I mean most people have never will never be in a place like that.

1:33:18Like where did you find strength in that in those in that place? I don't know. I just remember writing like a gobylet to my parents because I said if I die out here, it was really dark. Like it was, it was, it was terrifying. It really felt like it was the end. And I was writing, you know, if you find me out here, I'm sorry. And all that, all that type of stuff. And it was, you know, I don't know about strength. There was no strength. It was just like move forward. And at some point it was like, if you'll take me down, River, take me down, River, you know. And you just got lucky with the loggers with the death boat.

1:33:50Yeah, they found you Well, how did the infection start by the way? I don't know I really don't know I mean we always have some sort of little shit But the thing is now JJ taught me that there's like three different trees that can cure infections I didn't notice at the time. I didn't know the cheat codes now There's there's if you have a small infection you can use songa to the dragon and it'll it'll cure it right away Like let's see if a bot fly and it gets a little pussy as a fly living in your skin You put that on there not only will it kill the fly but it'll heal the infection Now, if you have a worse infection, you can go to O .H.

1:34:22which is Phychus and Sipidon, you can use that. And that will completely heal. That will murder. It's like crocodile blood. It will murder infections. So like, forget Neosporin. That's a joke. These are heavy chemical compounds running through these trees, and they know all about them. And so, whatever it is. And now, at this point, that's no longer an issue. Because we know how to handle it, which is at that time. If JJ had been there, I would have been fine. Well, learn the hard way. So these are open wounds and then there's creatures that start living in them. That's basically what what is it?

1:34:52Well, that's separate. That's botflies. Yeah, there's there's a there's a creature that unfortunately very very very unfortunately likes to make its home inside the flesh of mammals. Yeah, and so the flies attach their eggs to mosquitoes the mosquitoes go and seek out one -blooded animals the eggs microscopic eggs fall into your skin and then begin to grow and sooner or later you feel a twitch and it's a worm living inside of you that's like vertical down in you and it's it's eating you and at first it's not a problem but when they get to about as thick as that pen it starts to hurt because you got a hole in you and they have a little breathing tube that comes up and they breathe and they go back in and then they eat and they come back up to breathe and you have a you have a friend living in you and it's had one of those I've had lots of those.

1:35:40It's tough to take them out. They have hooks. How do you have to love the jump? So how do you take it out to come? 100%. You got to you got to put an irritant. So like a lot of times, what we'll do down there is someone will take a massive drag of a cigarette and then they'll spit the, they'll power like exhale and get some of the some of the tar, which which also shows you how much tar you get out of a cigarette. And then with a knife, you put that right over the hole, and then you slap some Vaseline or something on top of it, so they can't breathe. And eventually over the course of a few hours, they'll come up enough looking for air.

1:36:22And then you gotta grab them with a tweezer and try not to rip them, because then you're gonna get an infection. And you gotta squeeze from the, it's a whole ceremony when people have botflies, we're all like, oh, it's botfly time, let's go and then like JJ will squeeze. He's got like pliers for thumbs. He can like take a piece of your neck and you think he's going to break your skin, he'll just squeeze until this thing comes out. And you don't want to get such an open wound right there. Yeah, you don't want to bathe for a day or two after until that closes, because otherwise you're going to have water sloshing around in a little pocket of your scythes.

1:36:53This is kind of gross. And that water might have other organisms in it. Water in your skin tends to, yeah. I mean, the jungle water's clean. We drink it, I drink the water, fresh out of the stream. Oh, that's interesting. Well, it's just a filled giant filtration system. All those roots, the whole jungle is constantly purifying everything. People might be thinking about that with the jungle. There's insects probably all over you all the time. It's not as bad as you think. I've been to Finland, Lapland in the summer, and the mosquitoes are horrendous, like devastating. The Amazon, in our area, if you're sitting in a hammock, reading a book, our research stations don't have walls or anything.

1:37:35You're good for about one mosquito every half hour, which really is not a lot. I mean, it's worse than New Jersey. It's really not that bad. Tell me a little more about the little baby antiter, Lulu. They you've rescued and had to sadly leave behind. Yeah, I just was always fascinated with giant antiters. This German shepherd -sized thing with wolverine claws and these giant pop -eye forearms and they excavate and in termite mounds and they have this long tongue. And their babies right on their back for the first six months of their lives. And so they actually have this incredibly intimate relationship with their young.

1:38:13And it just so happened that this animal that I was wildly fascinated with, there was an orphan on the river. And JJ was like, you love these things. And I was like, yeah. And so he went and he was like, hey, my friend, you should, he got me the baby. And we were like, we're gonna rewild her. And so I spent weeks and weeks and weeks just like with this thing on my back crawling through the jungle, teaching her to find ants, giving her milk, falling asleep with her on my chest, and their tongue is like 11 inches long at that age. And so when she wanted me to wake up, she'd fire it up my nose and it would come out my mouth.

1:38:46And she'd, and then if I tried to get her off me quick, she'd stick the claws in. And you know, all my clothes, I have like, I've old like, you know, now they're like, you know, like museum pieces with rips in them from, from Lulu's claws. Just able to also communicate emotion and feeling, She needed it. She needed it. So if this animal didn't have the physical touch, if I didn't hold her all day long, she'd throw tantrums. She'd go shred something. She'd go pull down the curtain. She'd go ruin the woods. She'd start literally having a traumatic response to not having intimacy, which was shocking.

1:39:21because again, on the scale of a cockroach to an elephant, you go, I didn't know that giant ant eaters had such intense emotions, like, but she did. And we, you know, and also taking care of her forced me to explore the jungle from the perspective of an animal. So I got to like be an animal. And so there's only a few times in your life, in my life, where I've gotten to do that, you know, one was with her another time, was living with the herd of elephants where I had to walk with them through the forest and like see how they interacted completely natural. And it's different. It's very different.

1:40:01And you realize like just like a person's public persona when they're out on the street in Manhattan is going to be very different than when you're on the couch with them on a Tuesday night. And with wild animals, it's very much like that. You know, like if we see you see a bobcat on a trail and it's going to look at you and and then go off and it's like, yeah, but what's it like when it's in the den? It's playing with its cubs. So that when it's looking at you, that's like the Instagram post that's making it. The actual stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So you've, besides Amazon, I spend a lot of time in India.

1:40:34Can you tell me where you learned hanging out with a herd of elephants? Well, what should, what do people not understand about elephants? That's beautiful to you. That's interesting to you. First of all, I think that elephants should have government representation as like a subset of society, like actually. They have intelligence? They are so intelligent. And when you look at an elephant, so there's this question that keeps coming up of, you know, are we smart enough to know how smart animals are? Can we interpret the intelligence that we're seeing? And I've lived with a semi -wild herd of elephants in India for a while and some of the things that I saw like changed how I view reality to be honest with you because you know you watch a matriarch of an elephant herd walk up to someone that none of us knew was pregnant and her trunk goes to a stomach and then she calls all the other ones over and they're interested in this little human that they know that there's something in there and they're and they're all conversing about it and you go whoa or that every morning we'd wake up and the elephants didn't want the stream water, they didn't want the lake water, they want puddles, they wanted the water from our well.

1:41:46We had like a stone well, you know, like a traditional. And every morning we had like run out of bed because all the elephants were gonna come and they were gonna rip the bucket off and destroy everything, but they wanted that nice cold, clean water. And so it was like caring for elephants that were wild, there was sometimes getting shot at by farmers because if they went to try and rob some bananas. So these are sort of like the Lincoln elephants that were half wild in the forest department was thinking about, you know, getting rid of them, which whatever that meant. And I made really good friends with this one elephant, and his name was Dharma.

1:42:20And Dharma had the, had the, the stuff doesn't, this is, it's hard to write the book I'm writing right now because none of it sounds real. He grew up around people because he was a tuskless male. So he couldn't hang out with the females because he was a grown -up male. He couldn't how to hang out with the males, the bulls, because he couldn't defend himself when they rough -housed and everything. So, Dharma would be like wandering around the forest, not knowing who to hang out with. And so, like, there was one night, there was a tiger calling. We just heard, you could hear it echoing over the hills.

1:42:52And what does Dharma do? 2 a .m. We hear Dharma show up. And he's the same thing. He starts throwing a tantrum. He starts pulling shit over. He starts, takes a chair, throws it. We had bananas in the truck. Dharma walks up to the truck. It's like a Jeep. He walks up to the Jeep, smells it. He looks at me. He's like, you're gonna get out of bed. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna get out of bed. I was like, you're a grown S elephant. The tiger does this thing again. He's like, I need bananas to feel better. Yeah. Pushes the truck up on two wheels. Oh wow. Looks at me. Is this how you want it to be? And so I'm up, I'm up.

1:43:27And I go and I'm like, please, please, please, please, please, don't make me run in rub in his face. And he's like, he puts it down. It's like, all right, well then, then hit me. I didn't do it. So he lifts it up again. And so in the end, there was no way for me to outsmart the elephant. He wins. There was nothing I could do. And so a lot of my job was taking him out into the forest and, you know, spending a little bit of time with him. I have this beautiful, one time I set up the tripod and I went and I was just just journaling. And he would come and he would just like play with my hair. And he'd be like, hey, what's up?

1:43:57You know, he just he wanted someone to, to interact with on an emotional level. And you know, when you think about elephants in terms of the fact that, you know, people go, you know, they, they use medication to induce labor. It's like, yeah, that's not that surprising. They, they, they hold the bones of the dead. It's like, yeah, they have the best smell of pretty much any animal. That's also not surprising. They probably know exactly who that was, that bone. But they can navigate to water holes and communicate in ways that we cannot really figure out. And so when you hear about people measuring elephant intelligence, you'll hear about scientists being like, oh, well, we gave it a bucket with a hole in it and then it had like a key and there was a rope and you're like, bro, this is all human stuff.

1:44:42Can you go walking with them for three weeks in the wild and watch how they deal with the problems that they encounter in the forest? And so elephants have become, especially recently with the work that I've been doing in Africa with Betpaw, I've just become so fascinated with elephants.

1:45:03The African elephant population right now is down at 2 % of what it was a few hundred years ago. We're really putting them on the brink of, there's some elephants that are being born tuskless because we've poaching has taken down the great tuskers to the point where now it's actually beneficial for some elephants to not have tusks because they won't have humans, but that's like we've created deformed elephants. And so like now I'm kind of very concerned with issues of elephants. And tusks of fundamentals, the interaction between elephants. Absolutely. I mean, with males compete with each other, but also elephants use their tusks.

1:45:39You know, like they'll break a branch and they'll be like, this is a good branch. I'm going to eat the hell out of this. And they'll like hang it on their tusk. And they'll like grab a bunch of other stuff. They'll like hold it, you know, ripping a tree up out of the ground. I just watched it two weeks ago as I was watching an elephant and he got down on his knees and stuck his tusk into the ground and like leveraged up. He like arcomedes to this root out of the ground and then was like, that's a sweet root. Now when he left, I went and I tasted the root and it was like sweet ginger and I was like, I have no idea what this is, but he knew it was good.

1:46:10Do they use tusks for sexual selection like to impress the ladies or no? It's certainly involved in how who has mating rights. Oh, who wins in the next one. Who wins? I mean, if you got the big tusks and there are elephants out there like the mammoth big tuskers that have tusks down to the ground. Like huge. And when you see them, it's like seeing something unique on earth, unique in history, because right at a point where we might lose those, there are only a few of them left. And then they're so prized by hunters. Yeah, it's interesting because I forget what the actual conclusion on that is, because there are some studies of the use of the value of beauty in evolution, like birds, Yeah, and peacocks and so on that there's no actual Value to it, but it plays a role in in sexual selection meaning value like It's much easier to understand competition like a tusk helps you defeat sure the competitor tool But I bet you there's a component to the tusk where the ladies go god damn it's a night Like there's a visual beautiful component.

1:47:13Maybe not but what if be what a beauty though as we're defining it though is is symmetry and the absence of yellow spots on your face and healthy looking hair. And so like I think to us beauty is sexually appealing traits that look good to mate with. So that 19 year old with Marissa, everybody in the world was quite left on that. Yeah. The least I really desire a lot from the universe. Okay. What do you mean speaking developing intelligence and something I think and work quite a bit on as with artificial intelligence is what the philosophical question that comes up is what is intelligence? What is intelligent?

1:47:57Humans, homo sapiens are often thought to be highly intelligent. That's the reason they stand out. So in your understanding of different species like the elephant, what stands out to about humans or are they just another animal with different kinds of intelligence? Well we're certainly unique because we have altered the entire planet. Yeah. You know, the term the Anthropocene. I mean, it's like we've literally created a geological layer of us. whereas other animals don't, and going back to elephants, it's like they also engineer their environment. If you're in a forest, like if you drop me in a forest on Earth, I could tell you in two seconds if there's elephants there, because this twisted branches and excavated Earth, and they're constantly gardening.

1:48:53But I mean, look at us. I mean, we're clearly unique in nature, which makes me not understand the anti -human sentiment that so much of environmentalism has about, like we're bad, we're damned, we ruin everything. And it's like, I've seen the worst, I've seen the burning Amazon, and I'm still like, I love being able to share ideas with you and travel to places, and FaceTime my family when I'm not around them. And it's like, I celebrate a lot of what makes us human. And it's almost like reality is this crazy video game, And it's like if we could just figure out the right keys, we can pretty much do anything we can think of.

1:49:34And it's like, I mean, poetry, art. I mean, you know, I'm the biggest animal lover in the world, but we are different. We really are. Yeah, the ability to puzzle solve great tools. I think it's the coolest invention humans have come up with. Is it fire? What's the most impactful? I feel like fire is, I feel like fire is kind of a gimme. I feel like the, they're really invented. They probably, like the wheel. Flying. I mean, flying. I mean, think of, think if you could go back in time to someone that never flew. Yeah. You know, a, a, a, an Egyptian king, a, George Washington, you know, and be like, you can fly.

1:50:21I mean, this is just, just on my way here. Yeah. And I fly way too much, but I was looking out the window at the clouds and going, this is unbelievably spectacular. It's just stunning. You know as a kid, you look at a cloudy day and you go, this is the world is like this today. And then you get in a plane and you fly above the clouds and it's sunny up there and you go, oh, it just it changes your perspective. It's like when people go to the moon and they come back and they tell you the pale blue dot, you know, just I say flying, I think the ability to fly. I mean, the fact that I could get on a plane and be in India in 22 hours is shocking.

1:51:01In terms of its usefulness, I would argue that's not in the top five, but in terms of its ability to inspire. There's somebody I forgot who told me this idea that there's something about the atmosphere your Earth's atmosphere that allows you to look up and see the stars. Like if we didn't have that, human civilization would not have happened. Meaning like being able to look up and see something out there would fill our, like something that allows you to look up versus just look down to like first, looking at your local environment, yeah, be able to like wander and see, holy shit, there's a big world out there, and I don't know anything.

1:51:46If you're able to look up and see that, that kind of humility combined with the ability to dream about exploring, maybe it just inspires exploration. It's kind of an interesting thought given how inspiring, for example, the extra upgraded super cool version of flying, which is flying to other planets. I mean, there's going to be hopefully possible this century, a child born, not this century, maybe this century, a child born on another planet that looks up and looks back at Earth and has to be educated by his or her parents that like, there's another place. There's another place or life is way easier.

1:52:38Oh, God. It's so easy. This water everywhere. Yeah, exactly. People go playing about earth, man. Earth is really, really, really good. It's really, really good here. Water everywhere. Oh, man. I wouldn't even leave. Given, like, right now, like if somebody said, like, oh, you could go to the moon, I'd be like, no, I'm good. If I died in space, I'd be so pissed. I love it here. Yeah, but you're still, there's a longing to explore for you. There's a longing to explore, but I really think I'm such a, like, my longing to explore is like river streams, oceans, jungles, like, to me. Yeah, I would watch the hell out of the live stream of Elon touching down on Mars.

1:53:22Like, I'd be like, this is incredible. It's an amazing that I get to be around to see this. I'm staying where I'll be right here. Yeah, but it's good that the human spirit pushes us to it's amazing that was possible and it does that for you Just out there questions that what's what's the most dangerous animal in the Amazon would you say? Mammal what's going on mammal dangerous mammal like dangerous in terms of you walking around doing the solo hike I'm gonna disappoint everybody with this, but it's it's humans. It's nothing. There's no if I'm out in the Amazon There's nothing that's going to attack me.

1:54:02In India, you might have an old leopard or a tiger that's missing a tooth that decides your prey, or you might have an angry elephant that's in must that just decides to flatten you. In the Amazon, there's real, Jaguar's won't even let you see them. And there's really nothing else. One of my friends, a brilliant scientist friend of mine, Pat, got attacked by a rabid a lot ones, but that's like a diesel house cat just having a fit, you know, it wasn't the worst thing in the world. Just the assholes looking them. Okay, what in terms of humans, you said that the tribes, some of them, uncontacted, can be exceptionally dangerous.

1:54:46What's your experience with them? What should people learn? Because it's such a fascinating part of life here on earth that there's tribes that don't have much or any contact with the quote unquote civilized world? I, most of the people that I meet don't actually really understand how, how isolated these people are or how weird it is that we're sitting here and that we have iPhones and airplanes and all this stuff and these people are living naked in the forest at this moment. And so the, the thing though, I also was recently somebody said something like this, like Paleolithic tribes and it's like, no, no, just by default, they're modern tribes living now.

1:55:31They just happen to be living out in the jungle and there's a huge debate about, do we try and contact them and bring them in? And there's two camps of people on this who they said it was the trauma of the rubber boom that sent them out that far into the forest and made them terrified of the outside world. And so that's also what made them so hyper -violent. I mean, there's one of the guys we work with on our team, Victor was in, I think it was 2004. He's coming down river and he had a load of Mahogany wood. And he's piloting this boat. And he sent two people, a husband and wife ahead to go start cooking breakfast on the beach so they could put the little kitchenette thing down and put the propane.

1:56:14I mean, he sent them ahead. As he's going nice and slow with the barge, coming down the river. They go ahead, reach the beach, they get out, he starts cutting some cane to start put making a fire. Tribe comes out, no warning, they just start screaming, they start shooting arrows. The man instantly gets an arrow through the leg and it pins his legs so he can't run. He tells his wife, go, save yourself and she does. She jumps in the water, there's arrows falling around her too. And as she's floating down the river, She looks back and the last thing she sees is these guys getting to her husband and beginning to rip him apart As Victor comes down the river.

1:56:52This is a guy we work with every day. He comes down the river and sees his friend Disemboweled opened up dissected his parts are all over the beach the beach is red And they only found out what happened because they found her later on holding on to a stick in the river and they're like what happened? And she was like, they just attacked. They don't want people on their land. On the sort of the underground WhatsApp chain of the Amazon, they, a few in August, like this was not internationally known. Some loggers went up and tried to steal a few trees from where the tribes were. And then everybody sent the pictures of what the loggers looked like after a few days because the tribes porcupined them with arrows.

1:57:34They were laying there on the ground, which is arrows sticking out of their bodies. And then eventually the authorities came out and looked and there was just these white But I'll show you the pictures later. There's just these white puffy bodies with like the skull sticking out And it was like you don't mess with these tribes. I wonder what are the what's the mythology around That they construct around who these outsiders are Are they gods are they demons are they humans? What who are they who are we to them? Well, you got to go back to the rubber boom. The rubber barons went down there and at the start of the industrial revolution, the only way to get rubber was to mine it from the trees that were out in the forest.

1:58:14So the only way to do that, because you can't make a rubber plantation in the jungle. The rubber, when it's in plantation form, when it's a monoculture, I guess this leaf blight and it all dies. Henry Ford tried it, didn't work. What they did was they sent these people down who just whipped, burned, and slaved, raped, impilaged the people. It's one of the worst periods in human suffering that I've ever read about. One missionary said they were killing the locals the way you or I would kill a mosquito. They just went nuts. And so they sent them out and they would come back with rubber. And this would go to fuel the industrial revolution for hoses and gaskets and tires and all this stuff that suddenly we needed.

1:58:55And it was during that time that these gangs gangs of foreigners would go into the jungle to enslave the natives that these uncontacted tribes went back into the jungle and said, not us. And they have six foot bows and seven foot arrows with bamboo tips. They make the bamboo tips into razor blades. And so when those things fly, actually one of my rangers, one of the jungle keepers team, was present when the tribes had come out onto the river and he tried to help them because they're nomadic and they live out there. So there's an element of like brother, like you know, they're trying to be like, you don't need to be like this, like we're friendly.

1:59:40So they sent a canoe across the river with bananas and so he's up to his waist in the river and the tribes are right across the river and they shot and he sees the arrow coming right his head and as he moved to the side it hit him at the temple and sliced him back towards the ear opening him to the skull he's fine but let me tell you something when he goes and gets a crew cut it's the most badass skull you the scar you've ever seen man so he he always keeps it real short on that side but but even if you try to help them that they're not necessarily friendly. That's a tough lesson. Yeah. I suppose they have a point.

2:00:21They have a point and protecting them is a default of, you know, now that we're protecting all this ecosystems and all these other indigenous communities, it's like we all sort of live with this knowledge that their, the Oramanos, the brothers are out there and that's the way they want to keep it. And so we just have to be respectful of like, you don't camp on certain beaches at certain times of the year because we know that they might be there. You really have to be careful about that. Have you yourself interact with them? My interaction with them came on a solo where I pushed it a little bit too far.

2:00:51And I was planning to do a three week, this was like the big one. And I got dropped off by poachers up a river and I went past the point where they were like names. They were like, what tributary are we on? And they were like tributary. And I was like, okay. And I said, leave me here. And I remember the guy being like, are you committing suicide? And he didn't understand that. I was like, no, I have a backpack and I have like food and like, I'm going to like take videos and have a tripod and I was like, we're cool here. And they looked at me like they were like, goodbye. And I was like, I went up this river and, and again, like you just, you learn these things, like, you know, it was only when I'd been alone for a week that you realize you're, I guess that's saying they're like, oh, you're, you're born alone and you die alone.

2:01:36It's like, no, you're not. You're born into a room full of people usually at the very least your mother's there for everybody and And so you've been around people probably if you're a normal person every single day of your life You've seen dozens if not hundreds of people And all of a sudden you realize what a social creature we are Because on day six it gets weird for me. It got weird I know those people that can do it longer So what does that mean like longing for contact like lonely? Only? Longing for contact, the distortion of reality in the sense that like, you know, you wake up and there's no one there and you start to, you know, you're going up a river.

2:02:15So I would keep, I kept looking back down river and almost thinking of my life as something, it was almost like I had already died and I had gone to somewhere else and I was looking back on that life as like something that I had experienced and then there came this panic of what if it's gone or like what if World War three broke out? and I just don't know about it. My family in New York is vaporized and something, just you just, you're, you're, you're, you're, so actually, your ability to comprehend and interpret reality kind of requires other people. It's not just that you're lonely. You need that contact to actually just perceive the world, make sense of it, all of that.

2:02:53So you start basically hallucinating. I started kind of a, I started feeling very uncomfortable. It doesn't help also that like Santiago told me these stories where he's like, if you hear capuchons sounding not quite monkeys, if you hear capuchon monkeys sounding not quite like capuchons, he goes, it's the tribe and they're coming to get you. And then the guy who was shot, Ignacio, they showed me videos where we saw them on the beach and they're communicating in monkey calls. They're using it as codes that we don't understand them, even though we don't speak their language. But they're they're using animal calls.

2:03:28And so every every night you go to sleep and then you go, did that tin of moose sound off? And you're like, shit. You know, and it's really hard to fall asleep. And then like one night I messed up and I left a fish. I like cleaned this fish. I ate like this huge fish. I just ate it to my face. You're putting out like marathon levels of energy every day. Like, you know, Goggins would love solos. He'd go, this is awesome. You eat the fish raw. This one I actually cooked it, but you know, the skeleton was laying there right outside my tent, stupid. and then the middle of the night I wake up and I just could tell there was something there, you know, and then like you almost don't wanna look.

2:04:04It's like when you're a kid at the basement door and you're like, is there a ghost? It's like, yeah. I like unzip the tent and I like open it up and there's like 27 black came in outside of my tent, all looking at me like this and like some other heads are this big and they're like, there's fish there. Can we have it? And I'm like, holy shit. And like, you know, I was like, do I kinda like had to like scoots the tent back and like move back and let them have their fish. And there's a host of crocodiles outside of my tent. But no, so then there's, How many? Like 27 maybe. There's a lot. Big ones, small ones, medium sized ones, every type, they're all there.

2:04:40Their eyes glow in the night. You shine a light at animals and they have a tapetum lucidum. And so their eye shine comes back at you. If you shine a headlamp at a jaguar or a frog or almost every animal has a tapetum. So he's a crock. There's a whole lot of them. Yeah, I thought can we go back to the part of the conversation where you said the jungle is not dangerous the humans are the most dangerous What did they eat me know? Why didn't they eat you they wanted the fish is there some way of you interacting with them that shows that you're not social harm? I don't believe so I'm sure there's someone out there that thinks they can talk to crocs But because there's a there's a story of you grabbing a crock by the tail.

2:05:18Yeah, what did you learn from that? Learned to not always listen to JJ. So JJ was testing you to see how stupid it was. How do you hold the crocodile exactly? You have to get him by the head, like in Anaconda like this. So you're one of the world experts that's grabbing creatures by the head? I wouldn't say world expert, but I've done a lot of it. I also have, you see the head, there's like kind of a ball there. That's where crocodile tooth went in that side and came out that side of my mouth. That was a really good chomp. And the watch I was wearing at the time saved me because that, like that.

2:05:51Just real fast, just chalk. Just whack. Like somebody took a sledgehammer, you put your hand on the table and I just, blah, really hurt. Shouldn't have been doing that. How did that come up? Because I caught a crock that was too big. So usually when we catch little came in in the streams and we measure them to monitor the populations, you get it by the neck. And then I took the tail under my arm and I hold it. And you're talking about a little, you know, four foot crock, nothing. And I, this one I dove into a, into a swamp and I caught like a six foot spectacle came in and her head was big and I had it by the neck and I rose I couldn't get her tail under my arm Because her tail was all the way back there and she started thrashing And it was like probably crock number 375 that I'd caught and I just got a little cocky and I said, huh, she's you know, I just I just like grabbed her by a leg I was like I got this and she just just came back and tagged me and I went, okay, gonna go back to being safe.

2:06:47Just a linger on it. What is it one of the bigger predators in the Amazon? And is it going, are they going extinct? Black came in? Black came in, I believe they were critically endangered for a while because for a while, the fashion industry loved their skin, it's soft, and it's black. They're bouncing back a little bit now. You know like most animals if you leave them alone, they'll be fine. I mean Crocs have been through You know how many millions and millions of years on earth before us? I mean that's even the joke with with the joke But that's the grim reality of tiger conservation. It's there was a hundred thousand tigers in 1900 Now this 4 ,000 tigers left on earth It's not rocket science all you have to do is not bulldoze their forest and allow there to be some deer and Tigers will be fine.

2:07:40That's it. It's so simple. And that's like sometimes where I feel like I have the dumbest job in the world. I'm like guys, please stop killing the things that keep us alive. The Amazon regulates our global climate, produces medicine is home to indigenous people. It's beautiful. Rainforest is only cover 3 % of the planet's land mass. Like it's not that much to ask. If you leave their home untouched, they'll figure out how to have sex and multiply. Except for pandas, apparently. Because pandas, you have to convince. Yeah. Humpbacks, humpbacks, they went down to, they went from 130 ,000 down to, I think, about 8 ,000 at wailing times.

2:08:21And then when we banned wailing, since that time, where I think we're back up to over 100 ,000 humpback whales, they've bounced back. It's a success story. We're not going to lose them. Okay, so you're on the solo with the crocs looking at you. See, this is why you're good at this. You know, I would have lost. We would have been we're pretty happy with the fish. That was your mistake. That was my mistake. I don't understand how you're still alive. I mean, I it's really inspired when you come. We're going to I'm going to show you. You told me you're coming. You're 100 % coming. But you know, you should.

2:08:56If there's any place, I mean, sort of a grim joke, but if there's any way to die, that's a good one. I'm being honest. It's a cool one. It's a pretty cool one. It'll become part of the. Part of it. I mean, there's, I'm not even like joking. There's a, there's a oneness to the whole thing. All the stories, just reading your work, looking at your work, it seems like you are part of this machine that is nature, this incredible machine. We all die and we're all part of this big thing that humans do have the capability to also construct narratives and stories and myths and tell them to each other and share them with each other and have more sophisticated ways, therefore, to communicate love to each other.

2:09:47But animals do as well. They communicate love, of maybe more simply, maybe more honestly. Anyway, so you were the crocs and the fish. Yeah, so I messed up, I left the fish out, crock showed up at some extent, but in the end it was fine. I backed off, they had their way with the fish and then they all started biting each other. It was fun to watch. Is that a general search interrupt? Is that a general rule you wanna not leave? Yeah, just like if you're camping in the Northeast, you don't leave like you do a bear bag or a bear canister. You don't want to invite the wild animals. I really did mess up.

2:10:21I kind of was just like, you know, whatever. I do this every now and then I get a little too cavalier and the ocean has almost taken me down for that a few times. But yeah, so the crocs and then you keep going for a few days and my plan was to get to a point where I reached the end of the tributary and this had a very um You know, again, for me, this is like a pilgrimage. This is like me going into the heart of the very center and soul and essence of everything that I am fascinated with, like as close to God as you can get, because you're leaving every type of security, every human relationship.

2:11:03You're also pushing all your chips in. And so it's, every step I took further up, every time I got weirder and weirder and more intense and every day and every moment it changed. And I brought pictures at the time, there's no way to keep a phone charged. I didn't have like a power bank or anything. I brought pictures from home. I brought a National Geographic magazine, something just to, and there came a day when I was getting to the end, like to the point where the river was so shallow that it was just a trickle and I was walking on the rocks and the Andy's mountains were in front of me and I was like reaching the place and the music was swelling and then all of a sudden I saw smoke around the next bend.

2:11:53And I, I, like my spine is reacting right now as I talk about it because I knew, I knew what I was going to see because I knew that it was impossible for lagers to be out there. There's no motor that could take you. The boat would have run a ground miles ago. And so I went, and this is the other idiot thing. It's like, just turn around. Yeah. Just do it. I'm that kid though, when you see like a wet paint sign, like I walk by and I touch the wall. Yeah, yep. And so I went around the bend and I see a few naked people on the beach and they see me. And we're like a good distance apart. It's there on the other side of the river.

2:12:37But you know arrow in hand, bow in hand, the intention of pose, they're looking at me, they're clearly conversing. And that moment lasted for a long moment where I said, this is the part of the story where they are going to rip me apart. dissect me to see what I eat. I mean, every other story in the region that we've heard, that's the ending of it. If you're alone with these people, it's not going to go well. And I have nothing to defend myself with. And I just, I turned and I ran for like three hours, and I got in the river, and I swam for a while, and all my food got wet. I mean, everything, I just, you know, all this ran for dear life.

2:13:21And my get out plan, The thing after I crossed the mountains and came down into the next tributary was I had a pack raft. It's a tiny little inflatable raft. Good enough to handle rapids. And I inflated the pack raft once the river was like six inches deep. I inflated the pack raft and I went and I went for the rest of that day into the night. I went into the point that my headlamp died and I was just floating floating in a raft down the Amazon and hitting into things and I was like, I'm gonna pop this raft. So I got out of the raft, set up my tent, and I was like, I need some sleep. I was freaking out.

2:13:55I hadn't had food and hours and hours and hours. As soon as I fell asleep, my asshole brain comes up with the dream of that I hear voices. They're right outside the tent. I just, you know, sleeping was worse than being awake. So I woke up, got back in the tent, and then at one point it was really cool, because one of those, one of the same black came and that had come for the fish as I'm going down wherever he came right up next to me and the two of us were going. and he was just like motoring down river, this giant like 16 foot crocodile. He just like came up to me and like looked at me as I was going and it was funny because I wasn't scared to him.

2:14:29I was scared of them. And yeah, it took me like a week to get back to town. And again, the things you learn in these moments, the appreciation for your parents, the what a hug feels like. You know, when you are are faced with pretty much certainty that you're not going to get those things again, whether it's from Merseh or on -contacted tribes or, you know, I find that it brings you this new joy for life where you... Just being that close to death. Yeah, you go, you go, my God, this is all a miracle. It's sad because they're human just like you. So, actually, how different are they? If you were forced to interact for a week together where they can't, they're not allowed to kill you.

2:15:23Not allowed to kill me. How fundamentally different are they? Do you think? I don't think that's different. I think there are like any other Amazonian natives. They're tall. They seem to have tall genetics. And there's places, again, there's what is known. And then there's what we know down there like there's there's one community where I don't know whether it was like a bad Rainstorm or something but some kid from the uncontacted tribes did end up in a village and so we he learned Spanish or he learned whatever dialect they speak in that village and so He's told us a little bit about what life was like with them, but like They're just people They're just people they have their own culture.

2:16:04They know about medicines that we don't know about They definitely have hunting practices that we don't understand. They can hit a spider monkey out of a 160 foot tree with a bamboo arrow. We can't do that. I mean, they are incredible hunters and also like living naked in the jungle with the botflies and the mosquitoes. I don't know how they do it. Like sometimes at night and again, we don't have night vision, whereas almost every other animal does. And sometimes we'll be sitting on our, you know, at the research station at night and and we'll be just drinking and looking out and at the, we'll scare each other, we'll go, you know, and realize if they were out there right now, they could be looking at us and it's like, the truth is is that when it's dark out there, they can't see.

2:16:47It's not easy to start a fire with matches in a lighter and gasoline, they do it with friction. They have some beads on survival that we could really learn from. Not to mention that then you have people that believe that they are actually the guardians of the extinct giant ground sloth and what they're doing is, you know, living out there because they're protecting a secret population of previously extinct megafauna. But there's all kinds, I mean, it's like you go into the crypto world so quick. I've heard so many people be like, but then again, you have to be humble at how little we know about that world, about the world of life.

2:17:29Like you said, there's so much of life in the Amazon that we don't creature with no names. Tons of them. We could go out on a night walk right now and I could show you something that you know you. I've done it you you you pick up a bug and you go. That doesn't look right. That's not right. He's got three heads. Yeah. You know, and then you send it to to the the the greatest expert on that genus of insects and and they go look. I got no idea. And you're talking to a world expert and it's like, that's it. and 50 % of the life is up in the canopy. And so we started climbing the trees, like rock climbing, like what Alex Honol does.

2:18:07Like, well, like I'll climb up 50 feet and then I'll put a safety. Like I'm basically tread climbing and then I'll climb up another 50 feet and I'll have JJ belaying me from below and then I'll be like, oh look a snake. I'm like, JJ, pay attention. Like to get up there and the branches are as thick as this table. So you can like walk around freely. It's like total like avatar when they're in the floating out islands. like you can you can go run around if that's what you want to do. Pramele adds orchids, cactuses because up there it's against the sun so it's a different environment. Oh wow. Yeah.

2:18:38Interesting. And then you start seeing lizards and snakes and birds and things that aren't down on the ground. And so how many scientists have actually gotten to really spend time up there and really inventory the life. And that's why when you hear about you like it it's like a taxonomical discussion of how many species they're on earth. They're like between, you know, 10 and 30 million. And it's like, well, that's a big, it's a big swing. What about stuff on the ground? Do you mention some insects? What about bullet ants? So supposed to be the most painful bite in the world. You've been bitten by one?

2:19:13Seven or eight times, yeah. What does it feel like? Okay, so the first time that we ever did bullet ants, JJ said, you know, okay, this is what we're gonna do. He goes, you know, it's bullet ant roulette. We're gonna get a bullet ant, me and be like chopsticks, you pick up this bullet ant and they're big, they're big and they're tough. He goes, we're gonna put our forearms together and we're gonna drop the bullet ant and clamp our forearms together and just rub. And whoever it takes, it takes. Of course, JJ did not get stung and I did. And it hurts every bit as much as they say it hurts. It really let me have it.

2:19:50And then I was like hitting my arm against the table to try and kill it or get it off, but it was holding on and just like really injecting the venom. And yeah, really letting you have it. And then it travels up and it goes into your lymph nodes and into your ear and you get a headache. And I think the brilliant thing about the venom of a bulletin is that it makes you feel like this feeling of alarm. It makes you feel like something's wrong. You don't just go, oh, this hurts. It's like a beast thing. where you are, this really hurts on my hand. It's like, no, no, no, no, your whole nervous system is freaking out.

2:20:28And you start sweating and then you get cold and then you're tired and then you get a little blurry vision and it's like, that's actually that bad. I mean, now after six or seven, I get bitten and I'm like, kind of okay. So it's a full body, full mind experience. It's a full body, full mind experience, but then there's places in the Amazon where they stick their hand in a glove with like 70 of them. Right. And I think Steve did that, which I just don't understand and how you could do that without going into complete anaphylactic shock and dying, because one really sucks. Well, just like we said, with animals and with humans, there's different kinds.

2:21:00There's different kinds. Steve was definitely especially unique. The first of his species.

2:21:11On the point of on contact with tribes,

2:21:18It's interesting to think about what kind of civilizations have there been. This is something that you've talked about a little bit. Graham Hancock has written about ancient civilizations challenging the conventional, the mainstream thinking about the civilizations that have been there in the Amazon. on, can you steal men and criticize the idea, so the pro and the con of the idea that there have been advanced ancient civilizations in the Amazon? How much do we know? What are the possibilities of what's in the Amazon in this past? So like when Orianna went down, the Amazon, the reports were that there was great civilizations in the Amazon.

2:22:06And then a few hundred years later, when people got to actually check up on this stuff, it was all gone. And so was that because of disease that we wiped out all these civilizations and these communities of people potentially probably was he just wrong? Probably not. This is a guy that navigated by the stars back to Spain after building his own boat like, yeah, or did he, you know, or was he trying to just, I don't know, I don't know, but they're clearly is a long history of complex civilizations in the Amazon. 100%. There's no one that can deny that. The thing that I reacted to was that I've heard videos, I've seen moments and podcasts where the narrative becomes not, there's more ancient civilization information in the Amazon than we previously thought.

2:22:54True statement. We're discovering with LIDAR, and this is what Graham Hancock is talking about, that we're discovering constantly that there's more civilizations than we thought in various places. The place where I take offense is where they start to say that the Amazon, there's actually articles that are titled this, that the Amazon is a man -made garden, which is not true. So the actual, which I think is a really different idea, that the entire ecosystem, everything we've been talking about all the species, all the forestry and the different, just life, life, one of the most diverse ecosystems on earth is initially created by humans.

2:23:44It's ridiculous. Well, it's not, first of all, it's unlikely, but it's not ridiculous. So we can't, well, there's no ridiculous in science. But the complexity of life is very difficult to engineer. As you the more you study about biological systems and so on, it's very difficult to create the kind of things that nature is able to do. That said, I don't know if you've heard, but the entire earth, the world has gone through a pandemic recently. And if everybody said, of course, it's natural origins, viruses mutate all the time. And nevertheless, it seems more and more likely than this particular case.

2:24:29It was an artificial origin leaked from a lab. So humans are able to create stuff, at least modern technological genetic engineering. Made golden retrievers. Come on. You can't be that nice and that good looking. Used to be a wolf. Yeah, but so that bothers you because it it's a lot of you to think that We don't need to preserve the Amazon. We can always engineer it Yeah, exactly then just this is just to me that's a slippery slope like I totally um It's just it's so quick from I'm a fan of Expeditions to find ecological ruins and to learn more about the ancient civilizations to which I don't think is what he's putting out is that But then sort of like news articles, which I think they're trying to bait you, where they're going, was the Amazon manmade?

2:25:18And it's like, yeah, you know, because then you get, you're going to get a Brazilian president to go see, see what they said? It's manmade. So we might as well continue to engineer it and manage it. And it's like, there's such complex systems and interactions and such a, such a giant web of life there that at least in my opinion is clearly one of the most, authentically natural things. And again, are there things that we've engineered? Did the uncontacted tribes, sometimes they have banana plants that they've stolen, and we could see it from the air, that they have banana plants. We've made banana plants, that's engineered by us.

2:25:57We know for a fact. So, like, agricultural engineering. Agricultural engineering and stuff like that, but suggesting that the Amazon basin, you know, it's just a weird way to think about it. I've just heard people dismiss the protection of the Amazon based on the fact that they're like, oh, well, if people made it and it's such a giant leap from zero to 100, is there a slashing burn that the ancient civilizations did, of course? Are there areas that were affected by people, of course? I just get worried when we start talking about it was a man -made thing. Here you loud and clear on that and I personally think that's completely separate from wondering about what the ancient civilization had been able to accomplish.

2:26:47Oh sure. It's almost really sad because if all the humans I know are dying now, how long does it take before all signs of humans ever existing disappear? Oh, for the most part. From an alien perspective. How what timeline are we talking about? I mean like. I mean, there's there's a hundred thousand years like it could be less it could be less It could be like a few thousand because a hundred thousand is complete destruction Thousand like nothing but but then it could be in just a few hundred years Yeah, it starts becoming you're gonna the government of the alien civilization is gonna have to pay quite a bit of money to do the research Because they're gonna find other life first To find the dolphins and the phasen salon and to find the trees Maybe the trees are the interesting thing.

2:27:35Sure. The buildings are not that interesting. They're crumbled. But there must be examples of cities that have been left unattended for a few decades, and like how quickly the plants push up through the street and everything starts to get broken down. If you really look, you'll be like, oh, there's some interesting geometry here for the buildings and so on, but most of the most - The most - Either stuff. Yeah. All the stuff of the past 100 years, the airplanes, all that, all the technologies, all of the paperwork that all the hard drives, that's through all the information. I wanna actually know how long it takes like a 747 to like biodegrade.

2:28:10Like how, like if you just leave it there, sitting on the runway, society stops. Yeah. How long does it take for that thing to disappear? Like that's a weird thing. Lately versus to a point where it's on the identity of the Bible might be different, but. Sure. I mean, the point I'm trying to say here is as you've brilliantly put the Amazon churns. Yeah, oh yeah, and the fact that I wonder throughout its history What are the peaks of the awesomeness Well how many banana how many agricultural Einstein's of bananas. Yeah, we're there the creating different kinds of ideas different kinds of geometry different kinds of tools Well, yeah, look what the Incas did.

2:28:54I mean the Incas, you know, Machu Picchu I mean when they found when Hiram bigum found Machu Picchu was covered in jungle you could hardly see it and And I mean, the stonework they did, much like what the Egyptians did with the pyramids, a lot of it, we don't really understand how they did it. If you come to the jungle, you got to go to Machu Picchu because it's not far from there. And I usually, like, I'm the person, like, I won't, I don't usually go see, like, I've never been to see the Taj Mahal after living in India for five years, like, I'm just not. But when you look up and you see Machu Picchu, you go, either they were communicating with the gods there, or these people were so smart that they knew that anybody they brought, they were going to impress.

2:29:36They've built something there. But when you look up at that mountain, you go, whoa, with those giant stones, the beauty of it, you know, it's just stunning to imagine that there was this culture of people that could achieve this. And so through the Amazon, I mean, that's sort of up in the Andes, but there's all kinds of stuff in the Amazon. There are places where they say there's pure mints beneath the canopy that we just don't know about. I mean, it's endless. If you had billions of dollars, trillions of dollars, what would be the efforts in the Amazon for both conservation and for exploration?

2:30:18First things are tied together. Yeah, exactly. First arrest the deforestation. So we don't have losing species, losing indigenous cultures, losing the climate stabilizing services that the Amazon provides as a whole. Stop that. That's my first mission. Next, then we can play. And then it's like, let's go find, I mean, I've flown over the Amazon and assessed that. It's like, you see things where you go, we have to go see what that is. You know, weird lakes or shapes in the jungle that don't make sense that are that are that are strange. And like, so even at that level, you can see weirdness. You can see different signs of possible awesomeness.

2:31:01Oh, the jungle is so weird. And here's the other thing, is it most, until like the region I've been working in, you see where the researchers go. The certain biological stations, the certain places where like, oh, like this university has a relationship with this, this for the university, is this? So everybody goes to the same few study sites. And then they walk on the same trails, and they have the same guides. When you fly an assessment and you fly a few hours away from all that and you see a tiny little tributary and then you fly for 40 minutes over unbroken green just wild before you reach another tributary.

2:31:38Even if somebody could survive going up that tributary, had the expeditionary expertise and the ability to survive getting shot at by arrows, if they could get up that tributary. Now, cut perpendicular into the jungle, which I don't do on the solos. You can't, you can never, don't ever leave the river. But you tell me that in that span of 70 miles between tiny tributaries at the edge of the world, no one's been there. None of us have been there. You know, maybe somebody 10 ,000 years ago was there, but we don't know what populations of things are there. We don't know what ruins are there. And so there's so much undiscovered stuff in the Amazon that is just waiting, just waiting.

2:32:21What is the process of exploring that? So how does money get converted towards exploration? Is there safe ways of doing that? There's places where we've found out about things that have to be explored, but where you come up with, well, how do we do this without getting shot? And not only without getting shot, but also without endangering them too. Because how stupid are we if we go in there to people that are living in the jungle, not bothering us, and we go insert ourselves into there because we're curious about some rocks. That doesn't seem fair for the loss of life. And so like, yeah, that's something that we're working on.

2:33:03And like one thing, of course, is like light are and stuff, but eventually, eventually at the end of everything, it comes down to boots on the ground. Yeah, as somebody who has to ask that very question about how to deal with on contact the tribes there they're going to kill you But you also don't want to disturb their environment if you were an intelligent alien civilization Oh boy, and you came about earth How would you interact with it? Can you put yourself in the mind of an alien civilization? Because there seems to be some parallels here It is actually right. It's like my cosm of we're very aggressive human civilization very aggressive So if we were easily We get threatened easily.

2:33:49Yeah For stupid reasons because we start like a American military probably thinks it's like the Chinese or the Russians If we see any kind of flying objects that get very On edge. I don't know. I mean because you know part of it is like you just want to ask like that's the thing I just want to ask questions. Yeah, but you know But you don't know the same language. You're gonna get first of all. You send a boat of bananas. You send a boat of bananas, you get shot. I mean, picture if aliens landed in New York, how long would it take for one of them to get shot? So you'd be minutes. If you matter a minute.

2:34:22Yeah, that's because it's New York. It's everywhere else. Look where we are right now. Yeah, that's true. Maybe you were worse here. Yeah. But it makes me really, makes me wonder what is the right way to interact with intelligent life to snob like our own. I hope I dream of in our lifetime we would interact with possibly life on Mars or on one of the moons of Jupiter Saturn and like how do you interact with that thing? Well, there's very technical, biological, chemical processes, but also if there's any kind of intelligence, how do you try to communicate with that intelligence? Yes, we're not talking about like a cockroach, or talking about something that's clearly doing things, making things.

2:35:07Well, cockroaches possibly. How do you know the difference in a cockroach? Like, how do you know we were just talking just like a hell of a... Yeah. We don't know, we don't know. We have... Just like a race of like, philosopher cockroaches to chillin' on the rocks. Well, here on Earth, we kind of... There seems to be a strong correlation between size and intelligence. Like... Yes. It seems like the bigger things, the bigger nervous systems and brains, and so they're usually smarter. but that doesn't... I think it's brain, it's the ratio, brain to body. Sure. Because you have like crows that are up among the most intelligent.

2:35:41And it's like the size of the brain to the size of the body. But there also could be kinds of intelligence that would work completely. No, I did. We're not appreciating. Maybe cockroaches. It survived the longest. They had talked and she had about us right now. It's dumb humans. I like to. They got... These rocks are so great. Couple of hundred years. Exactly. Did you ever hear that Kurt Vonnegut where the two space travelers get lost? This really impacted me as a kid because my dad was an English teacher, so he's always quoting Dostoevsky and Kurt Vonnegut. And there's this two space travelers get like crash landed in a cave and on the walls of the cave are the harmoniums.

2:36:21And there's these kite -shaped animals and they feed off the vibrations of the cave and that's all they do. They don't hurt each other, they just do that. And so for like two years these travelers are stuck and they're trying to fix their ship and one of them starts playing music for the harmoniums And the harmoniums love him for the music and they all come around him and and he plays this music for him and finally they they fixed the ship And then the one guy is like all right, let's get out of here and the other guy's like you know what I'm staying He goes I found a place where I can do good.

2:36:53I'm not hurting anybody and they love me. Yeah I'm staying right here. Yeah, this whole ambition thing got going on. Always trying to build a bigger, bigger thing that might not be the ultimate conclusion of a happy existence as a civilization. That's one of the possibilities why we haven't met the aliens yet at scale. It's because once you get good enough at technology, you realize that happiness lies in a peaceful coexistence. It's possible. So where do you stand on like aliens now? Like there's a lot coming out about the pilots and the things people have been seeing. And again, like I kind of come in and out of this stuff.

2:37:38Like I'll be in the jungle for three months. I miss a lot. So like update me. Like, are we being contacted right now? Like, of course, nobody knows. But I tend to believe my intuition says there's aliens everywhere that even our galaxy, That's a bigger leap, but I believe our galaxy has probably billions, hundreds of millions of planets with life on it, like bacteria, type of life. And I believe there is, I don't know, thousands of intelligence, intelligence, civilizations that exist or have existed. The problem is there's a lot of time and it's very difficult to contact each other. So to achieve a kind of civilization that's able to actually send out enough signal or radiate enough energy, what we would notice, I think that's really tough.

2:38:37That said, statistically speaking, it seems like that should have been possible inside our galaxy or maybe nearby. And so I

2:38:47suspect that that once an alien civilization is just many orders of magnitude smarter than us humans, the way it would contact us is going to be very difficult for us humans to understand. We're very ego -centric. We want the message to be sent as like in English versus, you know, I think consciousness itself,

2:39:18Emotion, thoughts could be like fingertips, could be words in the story that the aliens are telling us. Or things that are just like a low dimensional projection of a much higher dimensional message that's being said by aliens. And it may be our striving to create technology, to create the kind of sensor that's actually able to hear some of the message. Maybe that's what AI is trying to do. So I think that bridging that barrier of communication between us and cockroaches, I think that's the biggest challenge. Interesting. Like the messages are all around us. They're here. I suspect the alien messages are here.

2:40:04The aliens are here. We're just too dumb to see it. So, first of all, the imagining planets where there are, like just picturing like a silent planet, but just like a planet of alternate life forms. Maybe it's not something that we can communicate and have a conversation with, but just like a planet of butterflies and centipedes and weird things. Unfortunately, for billions of years, it was bacteria. Yeah, it's a single so this is a procurriates and ecurriates, but they're not they're boring, but yeah, but animals of some sort in an environment of some sort imagine that would just be such an interesting beautiful Amazing thing and I'm sure they're out on that.

2:40:48I'm yeah, the kind of viruses they got going on

2:40:54But they could also not be biologically based that could be different chemistry so you have to be humble to that too sure But then, you know, depends on the day. Like, I think you caught me on that day today, an optimistic one. Sometimes I think that we're all we, this is all there is because you start, do you ask that question, the Fermi paradox, like, why aren't they here? You can't imagine an advanced analyst's civilization that would not be explorers. We're explorers. Why is that depressing to you, that the idea that, that, let's just say you found out right now that there isn't anything else.

2:41:33Let's just say that for example, say that the earth is the earth and the universe is the universe and it's sort of like the backdrop of a video game and it's just what's out there. Would that be tremendously depressing to you? I think it's exciting for an engineer. It's probably exciting for an explorer, but I would equate that to you're going out hiking for three days with one match. It kind of terrifies me that we only got one match. Really? Yeah, really. Yeah, all you got is one match. This, no, no, no, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Wait, wait a minute. You're going out. There's no more matches.

2:42:15But this is the only match you got. You know what's the next thing wish the planet? Like there's not, as far as we know, there's no meteor coming. I'm saying like, do you live in a, so I'm saying is that is your worry then that we need to have a backup plan? Yeah. Really? Well, they're so like what if we do what if we do mess it up so bad that I yeah, we can live here anymore Well, there's different ways to mess it up. There's there's ways to mess it up to make life really difficult Some of that max type of thing, but there's nuclear war yes with the Further and further advancement of technology that can destroy destroy all of our it just feels like that's going to be exponentially growing.

2:42:55Yes, it's gonna get worse and That it's a Listen, I'm very optimistic But it's a it's a heck of a Russian word we're playing. Okay, so I'm still curious about your your intention though Or like where you're where you're your passion for this comes from are you? Is your or maybe it's both but is it is it is it the need to have a backup plan? for humans which is which is admirable for your intense love of humanity and our consciousness and love and art and everything or Or is it also just that the raw fascination of imagining what's out there? Because the way you said that about like, oh you caught me on a positive day where I think it's...

2:43:39There was something in there that made me think that you need there to be.

2:43:48Yeah, there's... I think the kind of person that sees beauty and everything, But to me a universe full of diverse life Is more beautiful than one what it's just humans. It's just the earth life interesting. There's more beauty I mean I'm not egotistical about the awesome as the humans. I like If humans are not the smartest in our galaxy Not even close to being the smartest and that to me is I don't know that that's to me is exciting about the possibility of what the universe can create. Yes, I'm with you on that that it's wildly exciting to like if we found, even if it was just a distant inkling that we found out that there is a planet that has life, there's no communication coming from it, but we know for a fact there's stuff going on there.

2:44:45It would just change how we think about our entire reality. We know now. And it could be to me, I guess the little inkling of a thing that is depressing, if all there is is earth and human destroy it, then where the coolest thing that the universe has ever created. It's over. I'm interested to have this conversation. I'm really I'm really I'm saying like I would be interested to bring you to the jungle. And now I'm also wondering what your wilderness experience is, because I feel like for me, I'm so earth -centric to the point where I'm like, we differ in that, for me, this is like, it's a curiosity.

2:45:32I feel wonder, and I feel it's fun to talk about what's at the edge of space. There's the conundrums of space time. But I'm so to me, I'm like, what if the aliens are watching us or what if the aliens aren't watching us? But what if the challenge here is we've been put on on earth as the most intellectually complex of these creatures and and we're being observed to see how we manage it and it's like Yeah, we haven't made a good job of managing each other You know before Or Yana went down the Amazon. I mean, they showed up and just sacked the Incas. I mean, we do our history. I mean, I don't have to tell you.

2:46:13You just got back. But it's, I just, sometimes I wonder, you know, what the, is there a grand narrative with what we're doing to wildlife? Because it's like we have all these other species and we're struggling even here in this conversation to sort of quantify like, you know. And I think that most people don't think outside of the human framework. You know what I mean? Like just driving around for me, living outside of the jungle, even just for a few weeks, I get, you don't even think about the fact that there's other species around us. We really don't day to day. You look at TV and you look at, listen to the radio and it doesn't, it's not very consequential to the average person living in a city that there are these, you know, islands covered in walruses and that there's rainforests filled with birds and frogs and all these things happening and that You know the salmon are contributing to our fresh water and And that that life is literally given to us and made possible by these ecological systems to me That's where like the whole you know essence of my existence comes from and so like Yeah, thank you for that reminder because you're basically saying like the alien civilizations you dream about are here on earth those those those worlds are here.

2:47:31For me yeah. Yeah. Now I agree with you. I think I agree with you and I think that's actually the way I think most of the time. You know I think I'm on mushrooms all the time genetically somehow because when I go out in nature it's just the beauty even of nothing you talk about the Amazon man just basics of nature. Yeah. feel you feel me with awe. And the other thing that fills me with awe is our own mind, like the biology of these things firing, basically, not our own mind, but biology of any living organisms, because it's like an ecosystem. These cells came together, they somehow function They delegate, they mostly operate in a local way, but they, first of all, it's just like you said with the anaconda, you start out as a tiny snake and you become giant.

2:48:26When you're tiny snake, you're prey for everything when you're giant snake, you're predator, or you're prey to no one. Just that whole process, starting with a single embryo, single cell is human and through of the embryogenic process, constructing this giant human that's able to have limbs move about the world, think about things, write books and so on. Just to say that that is incredibly beautiful. And all of that is here on Earth, yes. And so actually, I was being sort of poetic about aliens and so on. I think I can spend 99 .99 % in terms of filling my mind with awe and beauty just looking down here on Earth.

2:49:07For sure, I agree with you. Yeah, and they shouldn't cancel out. I think it's beautiful that there's people that are fascinated and obsessed with looking out into space and that will travel there. I mean, just to me, the idea of, I mean, I have a little piece of media right at home that I hold and it does amazing things to my mind because I'm like, everything I've ever touched is from this earth. And I'm holding this thing that's been places that we can't even think about. And it blows my mind and I love it, but when it comes to intelligence, I think it's like, I'm so concerned with the fact that we're at this moment in history.

2:49:46And it's interesting to me that we had the internet and now that with the emergence of AI, and more and more, I feel like we are starting to resemble an ant colony, where there's more and more connection, and there's more and more interaction globally between everybody. In the next 10 years, we're going to have to decide, are we going to let our ocean ecosystems just collapse? Are we going to just take that 3 % of rain forest and just let them log the shit out of it until it's gone? And it's like, we're going to be in a very different reality then. Then it's going to be a very dystopian future.

2:50:16Or can we keep the good things about Earth, transcend that, realize that we have these incredible alien species around us that are animals that we grew up with, that we wouldn't be here without, that we owe something to. and I feel like at that stage, then the outward look becomes something else. It's almost like we've proven that if aliens came up to us, that's when I'd feel good. Aliens would come up to us and they said, you know, this Louis has the thing where he goes, God comes back and he goes, what did you do? He goes to pull the bears of brown. He's like, I left food for you. It's like, if the aliens came and were like, you know, and they interviewed the elephants and they said, how are you feeling?

2:50:57And the elephants would be like, listen, fuck these little primates. You know what they've done to us? And it's like, I mean, I've seen people break an elephant. I've seen it all with that stuff. And it's like, if anybody was to ask them, they'd be screaming. And so like, to me, it's just, you know, I have trouble looking out into space. I have trouble looking out into normal life as a human, because I'm so concerned with trying to make sure that they're okay because not enough people are doing that. Well, the interesting thing about all the development with AI and just that we're living more and more of our life online, I think we're actually learning what's missing when it's online.

2:51:44Like, I think people realize that online interaction is shallow, but we're just learning that that's a reality. Yeah. That we need that human connection. And I think there's going to be the swing back to like sadly AI systems of the future might be able to live fulfilling lives online, but us humans have to have a deep connection with Earth. And like with each other physical connection, I think there's going to be a phase somewhere in the century where we go back to deep physical connection. And there will be a digital world that we visit that would be separate. And that's the you have a discussion with that with Twitter, with Instagram, with all these social networks that they don't, they seem to be dividing us, they seem to not be bringing happiness and you have to try to figure out like, okay, so how do we use them in a way that does connect us, does educate us, grow a knowledge base, but also keeps us, keeps our lives fulfilling in a deep human way that we're for good and for bad genetically designed.

2:52:51They can't overcome. They can't escape these meat vehicles. Yeah, but to me that's so reassuring. Yeah. It's like when you're like, I have, you know, we all of those friends are like, you know, we got to live forever. And it's like, I don't know, man, do you? Yeah. I don't know. Is it that bad that this is how it works? Like that we don't understand it? Yeah, the that's often from the tech sector, the discussions about immortality and so on. I think that's somehow trying to escape the beauty of this earth for sure. That there's something to do for right to look at. Yeah. And I, perhaps like you, are worried about the unintended negative consequences of trying to escape the way things are on this earth because this is an incredible mechanism.

2:53:38How many times in the past has new technology come out that people have hailed as, you know, blast from here? It's not going to work or it goes against nature. and now, well, heart transplants are pretty cool. Yeah. You know, and you could say what you want about like television and like, oh, it's, you know, it's your brain. It's like, yeah, but also how many times have you sat in a room full of people being entertained and all laughing and interacting and eating popcorn because of the television is there? It's not one or the other. And so I feel like with AI, we'll learn our way through it, you know.

2:54:09There's like with the with the legged robots, especially and humanoid also so anything on legs four legs of two legs I remember like the first time I interact with a legged robot. I Saw magic there like That this two can have consciousness this two can have this life like quality that a human being loves about other human beings, about other living creatures. Now while I'm still I grew up in the place with no internet in a time with no internet, so I still like biological dogs better. I noticed the magic in robotic dogs and it makes me wonder. The way same way we were just talking about aliens looking up it makes you wonder about other aliens civilizations.

2:55:05Now the deep love is for dogs, for other humans. Yeah. But there's still this wander. I struggle with that. Like you said, the whatever's going on in here, the idea and there's so much talk about the fact, like at what point does an artificially intelligent robot become something that has, and it's like I get very uncomfortable with that. It makes me, I don't know how to handle the things because I don't know enough about it probably, but it's like I don't know how to handle like I don't know how to handle either nobody knows anything about it because It's really Everything is terrifying here because it could be as simple as consciousness It's easy to fake So what if you live in a in a world time to 20 years from now where Your toaster there's a bunch of robots in your room that are faking consciousness And then you fall in love with them and you have a deep connection with them And then you actually have a deeper connection with your toaster than you do with any romantic human partner you've ever had.

2:56:09And you start to... I was upset about the dogs. I was like, at least the robot doesn't take a shit on the floor. I was like, you just took it way worse. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, and then they start to... I don't know if you've seen AI porn, but it gets pretty intense. Like fully AI porn. Yeah, yeah. They're fake people. Take people that can things I've missed in the jungle. Boy, do I have a lot to show you? Or not? Can you show you? Not show you. Let me ask you about a touchy topic. Climate change. What's the effect of climate change on the Amazon? Maybe species diversity? what is something that people should think about?

2:57:02Because there's different views on, I think most people believe that climate change is human -caused and that it's happening, but there is different perspectives on the degree of damage that it's going to do over the next several decades and what our response should be as a society. And so it would be amazing to hear your perspective on it in small slices of your experience or in large. To me there's no denying the fact that we are experiencing changes. I think anybody that doesn't agree with that hasn't been outside in the last 20 years or has an interviewed old farmers who will tell you that it changed or you know, that I think a lot of us can agree with that.

2:57:52where I deviate is that I am not a climate scientist. I am not qualified. And so I just like everybody else I'm listening. And what happens to me is I see that the someone like Santiago de la J .J. father will tell me it's totally different than it was when I was a kid. The seasons have changed and moved and like in New York when I was a kid, like we used to get like white Christmas, like we used to get snow. No, I was in shorts, like I came off the plane right before coming here and I was in like shorts for a second. I was like, this is a different reality, but my ability, my interpretation of climate change, you know, I feel like it's just as dumb as those people that go like, you know, it's really cold.

2:58:40I thought they said it was getting warmer. It's like, it's a very rudimentary thing. And so as someone that's fighting for the preservation of biodiversity, I don't feel like I'm any more qualified than the average person to, I can only provide anecdotal evidence of the stuff I've seen. What I do do, though, and I always make a stronger lineation here is that I can speak to the fact that I've been places where the ocean fisheries have been depleted and the local fishermen can tell you and the scientists can tell you. There's no more fish here. I've been to the places where the rainforest line is being pushed back in Borneo and it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller and I've been in the Amazon and I've walked through the killing fields and through the fires and I've burnt my lungs on it and I'm a big believer personally in instead of trying to take on all of it.

2:59:38I've tried very hard in my life to pick one thing. And to me, that one thing is protecting as many wild heartbeats as I can because they're under constant fire. And so climate change, you know, there's so much arguing over it. And like you said, the degree to which we we affect it and and and how do you you don't mean like I like to have provable data points like, you know, I can show you tropical deforestation. I can show you the decline in tigers over the last hundred years. I can't prove, you know what I mean? Like I can't answer that question. I don't think if probably you can better than I can.

3:00:16No, I think one of the criticisms I'd love to get your opinion on is one of the criticisms that somebody like Jordan Peterson provides. Yeah. Is that the climate is such a complex system. There's so many variables that making conclusive statements about what's going to happen with a quote unquote climate in the next 10, 20, 50 years is a nearly impossible task. Therefore, as he would say, as people like Björn Lomburg would say, the kind of fear mongering that is done, saying we should spend humongous amounts of money to change the trajectory of everything we're doing in terms of energy, in terms of infrastructure and so on.

3:01:04in terms of how we allocate money is not justified because predicting is very difficult. And instead it's better exactly what you're saying which is focusing on local problem, local saying we need to protect the Amazon. What are the things that attack in the Amazon this year? In the next five years, how can we stop the deforestation? How can we stop different things? and then humans are exceptionally good at coming up with solutions for that, especially when you put money behind it, you put attention to it, and that's the way we solve all the different problems that are projected for the climate change in its worst -case scenarios to be realized on the surface.

3:01:51So that's kind of the case he would make. And I should also mention that one of the reasons I was fortunate enough to discover your work is first a friend mentioned that I should definitely talk to you and I googled you and I saw that somebody recommended that Jordan Peterson Absolutely must talk to you on his podcast. Wow. I think it was like a Reddit post. Okay. Thank you for Reddit poster That's that's great. Oh, interesting. And then I looked and Jordan hasn't yet. I thought My goal is for you to talk to Rogan and to Jordan Peterson for different reasons, but for the same reason they get connected to a human being that deeply cares about the Earth.

3:02:31And I think that's probably the right lens to look at the effects of climate change. In terms of focusing on the different things that are threatening the diversity of species in this most magical place on Earth, which is the Amazon. But also as you talk about with elephants and tigers in India and Focusing on how to solve those problems. I don't know if there's any comment you want to make on folks like Jordan Peterson Who are sort of raising questions about how much do we really understand about the climate? At first of all, I'm such a Jordan Peterson fan and I think the guy is heroic for a number of reasons and I find his Use of language and his use of theology and the message that he puts out wonderful I cringe a little bit when he says, I feel like, and I might not even be accurate on this, but I cringe a little bit when I feel like he dismisses that there is an ecological emergency happening right now.

3:03:30Now, I'm not talking about climate change specifically, but I've heard him say, you know, environmentalists upset me and he goes, well, what do you mean by the environment? Everything and it sort of seems to outrage him. And I kind of agree with him there, because so are you telling me that we need to halt our global process and and and and progress and economies and everything I don't know I don't know and so so to me I don't that doesn't bother me because he's exploring what the hell are these people talking about when you say you have I have I personally have friends and students and people filling my inboxes.

3:04:08I have young kids telling me that they've become vegan and they write a bicycle and sometimes they don't watch TV because it uses electricity. And they're just becoming so terrified of that they're killing the earth. And so it's this Doomsday anti -human sentimentist thing that were evil. It's almost like a new religion about your evil. And so to me, it almost makes me in a totally different camp where like climate change and the right left politics and, you know, I consider to family, I consider thanks giving dinner and listen to listen to the climate thing go back and forth. And I'm like, I'm not even, I'm not even here.

3:04:49And that might actually annoy some people in the environmental mental field that might feel betrayed by me saying that, but I don't care. My job, and it's not just the Amazon, and that's one I wanted to make, is that my career has taken place largely in the Amazon and also in India and now a lot in Africa. But it's not even just these exotic places either. It's people realizing that the salmon runs in Canada and the butterfly gardens in our backyard is that despite diversity everywhere. And I strongly feel like the idea of jungle keepers, the idea of stewards of nature. And so for me, my job, my one thing, and I try to tell this to these kids that message me and that my inboxes are full of this where they go, the climate is burning and elephants are in decline and tigers and this and that, like, oh my guys, look, first of all, calm down, first of all, like go outside, go get laid, do something, have fun.

3:05:50Next, pick something that you can affect. And it doesn't have to be with the environment. Do something good on Earth. Go help somebody that needs food. Go help your elderly neighbor. Whatever it is, practice, practice with being effective at one thing at a time. And so for me, like I said, from those early days of sitting there with JJ on the side of a river and going, someone has to protect this. My concern is that we've lost 70 % of the wildlife on this planet in the last 50 years. That's a huge problem. Wildlife maintain the ecosystems. And so I have a very clear cut, very definable, very measurable, and provable thing that I'm fighting against.

3:06:32And it's a very, to me, it's a very like small ask. Don't cut down the 3 % of the world that has 50 % of the biodiversity in it. maybe let's keep some wild tigers for future generations and because tigers have their own inherent right to exist here. That's my thing. In terms of when we get to, you know, I get attacked for, you know, you should be a vegan. Okay. You show you you have me roll into a village in the Amazon when they offer me spider monkey and you tell me that I should be a vegan and you you see how much they respect you and you tell them that you're a vegan. like, but no, so for someone like Peterson, I think it's actually good that he's, first of all, telling everyone to make their damn beds and exploring it through a different lens.

3:07:18He's coming at it from a totally different thing and saying, are we just being alarmists here? What, again, imagine if, imagine if there isn't a problem and they're making one out of it and all the implications that that could have for progress. It's like, so I think what he's doing is perfectly reasonable. There is a podcast though where he's he's It was a great one though where he's he's discussing animal intelligence Mm -hmm And and I could really see that that you know the human Syke and theology and religion is so much his world that that the really the idea of animals being intelligent was novel and it was and it was Fascinating.

3:07:59Yeah, that's why I was loved the two -year -to -talk just I don't know and I hope I'm not out of line here, but he is so focused on the human mind That I think he forgets that there's other Life out there. There's this whole machine of intelligence of like kind of intelligence out there This entire trillions of species tiny and big just just moving everywhere. And we're actually part of it. So to look at human psychology is distinct from that, is it missing at least some of the picture? Some of the picture. I do believe though, I would agree with him on that humans are unique. Human psychology is unique.

3:08:49We just are. But I also, you know, he's in such an interesting place because usually you have, you know, environmentalists mentalists who are like, you know, nature, nature, nature, and then you, and it's very anti -human. And then you have the other side. And it's like, he's, he's, he's on this path where he's, he's starting to explore what those, like, diverse intelligences mean. And that, that to me is really amazing because I love hearing what he'll do with that. And I think also on top of that, I think if you're aware of nature, deeply aware of nature, it gives you another perspective on the evolutionary history of humans.

3:09:27It's one thing to be and evolutionary biologists and kind of study it from a philosophical perspective. And it's the other to really, I think, experience it and deeply know it to see, I don't know, the fact that we came from fish should really be cognizant of that. That's something else. That's like, I don't know, to realize that we're part of a computing machine that created intelligence. We're part of the thing that started bacteria and is now creating AI and I don't know, Doug Gondotas, I don't know what else is impressive about it. The other great human achievement. The other great human achievement.

3:10:08I was thinking, well, what's interesting about Boston? But I feel like we keep scratching up against this thing in this conversation that it's so easy. I think something like 50 or more percent of the humans on this planet live in cities. And I think it's so easy for people to forget that we share this planet with so many other things and and and I think that that sort of that we're in a in a way we're almost like ecological orphans and that we've left the the things that actually make us feel at home and that's a bit of a stretch because I don't know if everybody feels that way but for me I mean professionally as an expedition guide when I take people into nature I see what happens to them and they leave going I mean it doesn't have to be the Amazon it could be you know upstate New York, but it's like if you do it the right way, if you remove the fear of breaking an ankle, seeing a snake, being bitten by a mosquito, all that stuff, if you can get people to a peaceful moment and you're fly fishing.

3:11:11A lot of times they'll take that moment and they'll talk about the rest of their life. If they don't live in that, those of us who spend our lives doing that, but for a reason, because it's the only place we feel sane. And you are kind enough to suggest that we might travel together for a time at some point. If we do that, if we journey together, where would you recommend we should go? So what I would want to show you is, is sort of, I'd want to take you to church, I'd want to take you to take you to, take you to see the giant trees, take you to meet the old, the old gods. Really. There's places when you walk in off the river that are so deep in the far that we, you know, and again, this is, now we do this.

3:11:56We have the boats. We have the rangers. We protect this ecological corridor now. And so it would be taking you to meet some of those loggers that we converted. It would be taking you, we'd have to go to the floating forest, meet some of the trees that I love the most. Go piranha fishing. And like, really just spend my ideal trip for you would be to spend five days of, you know, airplane mode phone completely living out comfortable. I'm not saying I don't want to, you know, I don't want to torture you. I'm saying go and live comfortably on an expedition in the Amazon. And that means a few days at this research station, maybe go up river three days and camp up here just on the edge of where the contact is are and then come back and then and see the jungle keeper station, but along the way seeing all the special sacred places, it would be almost like saying like, let's go see all the treasures of Italy.

3:12:52It's like this is one of the most beautiful things on Earth and I've had the incredible, almost unbelievable fortune to be responsible for protecting it. And I think it's a privilege to be able to share that with people. to be able to witness what this earth has created. It's been just a gift just even to follow your Instagram. The window you create on this part of the world is just really beautiful. I do want to ask on that, maybe it's like behind the scenes a little bit, but how do you keep the equipment dry? Like how do you, how hard is bringing the equipment to the cameras? You're an incredible filmmaker and photographer, so how do you make it work?

3:13:48I don't know, it's not that hard. We, we, it's not that bad. It's what? It is what the new iPhones are waterproof. And if they don't get, I'm telling you dude, it's been such a weapon, it's been awesome. If you drop it in the river, my one thing is you gotta have a tether because I drop it all the time. And so I'll be hanging off a boat, and I'll be trying to take a video, and I'll be like, here we are in the Amazon, you can see the lung and fulc. That's the biggest thing. But we shoot on cannons, and I don't know, it's worked out. It's not that bad. Oh really, so you can keep the equipment dry.

3:14:20I keep the equipment dry, and I actually don't, a lot of people put their shit in silica at night, and like keep it dry, and then they take it out. And I find that when you do that, the temperature change creates moisture inside the camera. So what I do is I never do that. I just keep my cameras in my backpack with a zipper. So they're more or less exposed to the elements. And so it sort of always has a little bit of equilibrium. And that's it. I mean, I shoot on some pretty fancy equipment sometimes. And and it's great. But I mean, the awesome thing though now is that like with with with a cell phone, I mean, like, I like, I like put my phone down on the ground a few weeks ago.

3:15:00I'm like, let this I know like walk up to it and stuff and it's like you can get video footage that you can literally put on Netflix Like it's just like it's getting really exciting and that's where like Right where I deviate from the the nature people that are like we need to go back and live in cabins I'm like dude. This is awesome and I love taking slow -mo Like no way it makes you re -appreciate but just by yourself just re -appreciate over and over and over and then you can also share it with the world Well, that's the thing is sharing it with people. There's nothing better than like like teaching a kid to catch a fish, you know, and like, and like, in a way, Instagram has allowed us to do that where it's like, I can have this crazy -ass moment that is so unique and then put it up for people to see, you know, or, I mean, I remember one of the most recent things that got people, you never know what's gonna get people excited.

3:15:49I literally just like, there was like, you know, 3 ,000 butterflies on the beach and they were like black, red and blue. Beautiful butterflies. And I just like, panned the phone across it and then jumped in the river and swam away. And threw that up on Instagram and people went berserk. They're like, this is the most amazing thing. They're like four different accounts to reach out to try and share it. And I was like, butterflies. They're everywhere. This is 4 ,000 species of butterfly in the Amazon. But sharing that with people is beautiful. How do you find the thing to shoot? How do you come up with the butterflies?

3:16:19How do you notice the thing that's beautiful and say, I'm gonna wait a minute. Like pause, this is beautiful. Let me take a picture of this. Because sometimes you might get used to the beauty, right? Or like sometimes simple crazy things like like leaf cutter ants. Yeah. They're just walking by. It becomes pedestrian. It's like, well, I mean, just like when you're living at the elephant camp and it's like the elephant comes out and he starts like trash in the water bucket, we're like, we're just stop. We're trying to watch picky blinders here. Just leave us alone. It becomes normal after a while.

3:16:54Yeah. Um, but no, in the jungle, I don't, I don't, that's never a struggle for me because as a photographer, it's like whenever my eye hits on something, I went, I've never seen that many of those butterflies, all the same species together. And like this, oh yeah, I'm trying to get this one thing that the butterflies do is in the dry season, the salt deposits, you'll get like three or four, maybe five thousand butterflies all coming onto this one area of sand because they'll be like some leaching, there'll be some some salt deposit there or something. And they'll all be wings flat against the ground with their perboscis on the sand.

3:17:33And if you go walk near them, they will vortex up. And you have a rainbow vortex of butterflies and you can like go run through that. And it's surreal. and I want to what I want to do is get the shot where I guess leave the phone recording in slow -mo facing up And leave it there for an hour let the butterflies come in and settle and then disturb them So I get the bottom of the vortex of the bug. I'm like these are the ways I think where I'm like How can I show people the absolute mind -blowing? You know with an eye perfection. It's amazing. I mean, that's what I have You know, I'm sure that somebody else could do it with you know a red and and and nail it But it's like that's what I have in the jungle because I have to travel light and I you know Yeah, I think that that really that works.

3:18:21I have the same thing when I travel in Ukraine The equipment was just the suit is that suitcase over there with a foam Yeah, he's just showered full of equipment and You can you can you can go to war zone. It doesn't matter. Yeah, doesn't like I I Has to do with the you're talking about like with the like protecting your camera or not It feels like the more you protect stuff, the more it's gonna get it Damage yeah, like so like see like my cameras. They're all missing. This is like that. This is amazing to me So all my cameras are missing the They all how you can see the metal through the paint nice so all this and so like they're all because I'm constantly like I'll like slide in and like take a picture and like they're banged up But these they're good.

3:19:04They're good machines I think they get tough over time if you put them to the music David Goggins cameras if you got to you got to make them suffer every day. Yeah. All right. What's your view on hunting? So you really hate poachers. I really hate poachers. How do they operate? Who are they? What are they up to? What do they do? Poachers to me are the people that are going in and annihilating wildlife for profit without any, you know, the people that are going in and and machine and she's got an elephant to take its tusks. The people that are sneaking into protected areas in Africa and shooting rhinos so that they can cut off their horns before the animals even dead while its baby is beside it.

3:19:53So, and there's a difference between a poacher and a hunter. I'm a hunter. JJ's a hunter. I work with an organization called VetPaul in Africa and they use United States veterans who have come back, post 9 -11 veterans who have come back from the war and have these skills. And they've been using these guys to protect the last black rhinos, white rhinos, elephants. And so we've, I've gotten to see this play out on a private reserve in Africa where these incredible people have decided to protect zebras, wildebeests, all types of Impala, giraffes, several herds of elephants, white rhinos, black rhinos.

3:20:35All of this stuff is protected. And what's interesting is it's a hunting preserve. And so it's been very interesting and challenging sharing my work there with the public because for instance, I went to a very high profile photographer recently and I said, you have to get over here and see this. It's amazing what these people have done. It's this reserve called Buffalo Cloof And they've, you know, there's rescued families of elephants. And they have, you can see a black rhino every day if you want to. This is, this is, oh, they're critically endangered. And it's because of the work that Vettpa does protecting these animals from poachers.

3:21:13But what people don't understand is that hunting happens all the time on the reserve, not for the elephants and the rhinos. Those are, those are special. And they will never be hunted there. But things like an Impala, things like an Inyala, a wildebeest, a zebra. There aren't as many predators as there used to be. So if you leave those animals unhunted, you know, without the wolf to chase the herd to thin off the ones that are old and dying or sick, well then you just have animals that are old and dying and sick walking around suffering. And so on and reserves like this, they hunt and they take the old ones and they use the funding from hunting.

3:21:53No one's going to pay you $30 ,000 to take a picture of a buffalo, but they'll pay $30 ,000 to hunt a buffalo. And so these reserves responsibly and ethically on foot can go hunting and manage. And again, if they were hunting rhinos or if they're hunting elephants, I'd be out in a second. They're hunting non -indanger species. They're hunting non -indanger species and hunting game species. And the difference is that a poacher is going to, and so those are responsible hunters that are ecologists and conservationists. Whereas a poacher is someone that will come in and kill recklessly and murder an animal for no reason for a part to sell I Would love to travel the other actually So let's we'll talk offline.

3:22:37I would love to make that happen if you allow me I'm I'm a hundred percent serious man I've tremendous respect for your work and I've been watching you since the beginning. I would love to do that together

3:22:50I've been I've talked to Joe quite a bit about it. I really love the idea of eating the meat that I've hunted. It's mostly what I eat is meat. Not for dietary. I don't have any weird constraints on my diet and so on. I just really enjoy eating meat. It's really good. And there is a part of me that's bothered by factory farming. Yes, sure. That it's very easily accessible meat, but there's something deeply wrong with it. Part of the reason I love fishing and eating the fish that I catch just seems to be more ethical but also a more intimate deep connection, honest connection with nature. You get to see the killing of the food that you're consuming versus removing that from the picture, not even thinking about it, not thinking about that this came from I mean, and yeah, I love the idea that you kill I kill one animal and I eat the animal basically for the whole year.

3:23:54Yeah, an ethically slaughtered animal whether it's a fish or a deer or whatever else. To me, that's oh god, I'm gonna I'm gonna use the wrong religious term here, but there's a there's a I want to feel like I want to use the word like sacrament, but it's like there's a there's a there's a a deeply profound ritual And honestly, honestly, if you teach a kid to grow a vegetable, you show a kid how to grow a carrot. And the miracle of like, wait, I put a, this thing just grew in there, it just appeared because there was sunlight. And it's like, yeah. To me, yes, when you feel that fish tug on the line, to me, it does something that awakens a deep primal something, the satisfaction.

3:24:40And then when you eat that, you feel good. And so I think the other thing, like sort of functionally speaking, is that aside from the fact that I think it's one of the original We were so disconnected like we should be hunting we should be Gathering walking more I mean look at like what what we discuss now like people are like oh you got to get your steps in for the day And it's like that never used to be a problem You know people like well should should we be eating animals? And it's like what do you think we do here on earth like I'm not sure how you got so confused, but Walmart did it to you.

3:25:17Like I don't know, like what, living where I've lived, and I mean, from 18 to 35, I feel like I've grown up, I've lived more outside than I have inside. And it's just to me like showing people these things, I can see this miraculous wonder in their eyes when they realize that they can reach out into the world and interact with something. And so when I hear these like frantic people talking about, you know, whether or not it's right, it's like, no, of course it is. Not again, factory farming is awful, but I try to stay, I try and walk the line. I'm worried about wild animals. I'm worried about wild ecosystems.

3:25:53The other thing that's sort of important about hunting is that if people's livelihoods depend on salmon and elk and ocean fisheries, Well, then they'll fight to protect it naturally because it's part of their life. And it's if everybody's going to Burger King and everybody's getting chicken wrapped in plastic, they forget that the fish are there because they're too busy watching sitcoms. And so then when the conglomerate comes in and builds a dam, nobody really cares. And then you just end up with a few hippies and signs standing next to the river and it becomes silly. So we forget the meaning.

3:26:33You mentioned that I waska reveals the boy. Oh boy. Oh, no. The darkness that's there in the jungle. There's beauty but there's darkness. So what is it that I was gonna reveal? What is the heart of darkness? Fuck it opens the heart of darkness right up. I'm gonna show you a picture of our shaman and then I'm gonna ask if you want to do I waska here? not here in that sense. It can only be done in the jungle. Anybody that tells you, I've heard people be like, oh, I did I was getting Brooklyn last week. And I'm like, no, you didn't. I actually told that to my native friends. I went, hey, guess what?

3:27:15I said a bunch of green goes, keep thinking they're doing I was getting Brooklyn. And they were like howling laughing. They're like, you can't do it outside the jungle. And I was like, exactly. I've never done I wasca. I would love to have done or eaten whatever mushrooms. Sure. It's a wonderful experience. I think it's wonderful. But I awasca. Oh, man. Yeah, see I had done mushrooms. I thought I was like, okay. Yeah, I was like, I got this. I had my notebook. I was like, I'm going to journal a little bit. And then, but you quickly, I quickly, quickly realized how out of my depth I was and how unprepared I was for what was happening because you sit in a circle with these native guys and there's one, you know, he's got the feathers and he's old and he's got a face like the map of the world and he's He's smoking his fat old tobacco thing and he calls you forward and you kneel before him and you're gone Is it too late to back up and everyone's you know is one candle and he blows smoke over the over the cup And he hands it to you and you're like again, it's these these these Like these things that you can't argue with it's these facts You're like as soon as this goes down.

3:28:23I'm gone. I know it and as a moment in my life that I I have to either embarrass myself in front of everybody or I'm going forward with this and then I went sat. You're sitting in the dark and it's again so we're on a platform with a palm -thatched roof and the jungle is all around you. So all those 10s of millions of frogs and insects are, and I'm like, all right, cool. And I remember I like, you know, I tried to like light a cigarette or something and I went, oh, that's not going to happen. And then I put my hands on the floor and like my experience, I mean, like we've done mushrooms, you know, it's like it's interesting, it's introspective.

3:29:06No, this was like somebody unzipped the universe. I, you know, I spent a lot of, without boring people with it, I spent a lot of time in like, unconstructed dream space, like floating between nebulous. There was a long period where there was no physical shape where I lived without a name. It's like you get brought so deep down, so elementally lost in the universe where I truly felt like I was experiencing moving through places like that asteroid that I have. like it's like a piece of, your piece is something detached from the earth. And so I got back from it and had an interesting new appreciation for life.

3:29:54I strongly suggest that people just do mushrooms like a normal person. Unless you're ready. So it was really intense. It was really intense, but to be fair, the shaman who did it was like the old school guy. Yeah. And he was getting up there in years and he had forgotten and overboiled the brew. And so we came back and I was like four in the morning and I had all this crazy shit. I'd been on journeys and years down there. And so when I came back and I had like hands, I started crying. I started absolutely weeping. Gratitude. Gratitude that I was alive. I was going to get to see my people again.

3:30:25I was like, I'm going to see my parents again. I'm going to get to talk to you. So I kind of thought you might have been gone. I was gone. I was gone. I was a dimly conscious something floating in dark space and spent what felt like years down there. And so when I really did feel like being reborn, which I was like cheap trick, like, yeah, you. But no, the way it moves you through the jungle, the way the jungle moves through your skin, there are moments of absolute majesty and incredible discovery that happened along the way. And on the way up, the jungle brings you up and the shaman brings you up.

3:31:03And you get to move through the forest in a way that it's almost like you're inhabiting the consciousness of animals. Very, very, very like I didn't think that hallucinogenics could do this to a brain. You know, mushrooms are like, oh, I can feel like I can feel music like the cool, you know, you guys want to watch Marshall Penguins. This is transformative. Like what? Yeah. Did that change you? I don't know. I think it definitely, it definitely, I almost feel like it showed me the thing that I was scared the most of. And it's that it was like that it's all just cold dark, nothing. It like brought me to like the basement of the universe.

3:31:43And I felt like the point of that was to come back to this place where there's all this life and light and love and all this amazing stuff that we experience on a day to day basis and don't take for granted. And so just like almost dying, this was like fully dying. Like they're you know, but the great part is is that usually it's not that intense this guy had overboiled the brew He'd also I saw the vine afterwards Most I wasca vines are like as thick as your arm. This one was like as thick as a garbage can It was like the oldest I wasca vine you can imagine and Like four in the morning. I like crawled over to my friend Chris who's a tough New York City firefighter We were like holding each other just like weeping just like thank God we're back and And then we had to go looking for the shaman.

3:32:30Where the hell is this guy? He's gone. We found him in the morning and he was laying in the stream naked, like ET at the end when he's like laying, like in the, yeah, he kicked his own ass with that brew and he retired after that. Oh shit. So we really got like, we, the somebody turned the dial all the way up on us and so we got blasted. So it's not supposed to be that bad. But I think you're somebody who's fearless in sort of diving into those kinds of places. I think I also retire from ayahuasca. I could be fearless with other things, but I think I'm good. It sounds kind of to me personally kind of exciting.

3:33:11Well, I think that you have a severely fearless aspect to you. I mean, you're when you come up with something that intrigues you, like if somebody told you right now that you could go physically into deep space. I feel like you would do it. Yeah, I do. Yeah, if go to Mars, yeah. Right. And some of it is, I don't even know if you have that. Some of that is more Goggins like, I want to see where my mind breaks by pushing it to tough places. There's a curiosity of exploring the mind, the limits of the mind. I feel like you're not a cold plunge. That's like you're not coming back. Right. Right. And that's okay.

3:33:58So, no, I have, I do. I have, I'm with you on that. I love seeing my limits. I absolutely love seeing my limits. I love getting my ass kicked. I love being shown how insignificant I am. But when it comes to something like that where you got to push your chips in, it's got to be something for me. It's got to be a hill that I believe in before I die on it. And it's like, like to me, the promise of exploring space isn't enough. But like even just the way, I mean, you said, you're like, I'm going to Ukraine. Here I go. You know, there, there's a certain, um,

3:34:35dedication to, to curiosity at any expense. And I think that that is something that maybe we share in very in different directions. Something tells me with those crocodiles outside, I would have gotten eaten. Something tells me there's something trying to preserve you in this world. I'm not sure exactly what that is. Somehow you keep surviving. What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing? Why are we here? Like, do you ever ask yourself for that question? I feel like that's every day. I feel like I'm someone that lives with that a lot. And I think that it actually takes me away from the human world a little bit.

3:35:16I feel like I've always been a little bit apart because I think that other people do mushrooms and they go, wow, I really made me think about how amazing it is here. And I feel like on a daily basis, I find myself where I'm like, I can't believe that any of this is possible. You know, I, and that goes, that goes from how delicious something tastes to being able to talk to, to, to, to someone in your family or have a full, as time's rum in the Amazon and I, I miss home and I even just face timing with someone like, oh, this is possible. Yeah. Like people were rubbing sticks together to try and survive saber tooth tigers not that long ago and I'm over there like, yo, mom, look at this.

3:36:01It's wild. Like I'm in a constant state of awe. And so I actually hope that this is a testing ground, and whether it's aliens or God or whatever it is that this is something crucially important. That would be nice because it feels like it is. Yeah, I hope that too, that the universe almost created us to see what's possible. And that I'd like to believe that beauty and good is possible. And those are the things that make me say that it's impossible for it to just mean nothing. And I'm very... And just like you said, there could be life forms that we can't even understand. And I'm very open to the idea that there's meanings that we have no idea about.

3:36:59The few things I know are the things that I love and some of the things that I love are being pushed to extinction, so I try to protect them. But that's my mission. But I'm saying in terms of what are we doing here? I'm just always amazed at the simplest things. I mean, the, you know, that we can sit here doing this exchanging. Yeah. Using our imagination to fill in the gaps, exchanging feelings, experiences, images. Yeah. It fills you with awe. And every once in a while, you get a little glimpse of something like a deeper meaning that might be there. You know, you don't, you don't really know what it is, but you get a glimpse.

3:37:41I've never known that. You keep searching. And then it's over before you know, Paul. Hopefully for you got many more years. It was dark man. You're an important important and a beautiful man. Well, thank you so much for talking today. Thank you for being who you are for everything you're doing. I hope to see you again soon many times and maybe one day soon in the jungle. I hope that happens. Thank you Lex. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Paul Rosley. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Jane Goodall.

3:38:14If we kill off the wild, then we're killing off a part of our souls. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.