#400 – Elon Musk: War, AI, Aliens, Politics, Physics, Video Games, and Humanity

28:47They have to be. So there's a lot of sons and not come back to their parents. And I think most of them don't really have, they don't hate the other side. You know, it's sort of like, is this saying about the same comes from World War I? It's like young boys who don't know each other, killing each other on the half of old men that do know each other. The hell's the point of that. So Volotimer Zelensky said that he's not or has said in the past, he's not interested in talking Putin directly. Do you think he should sit down, man -to -man leader leader, and negotiate peace? I think I would just recommend do not send the flower of Ukrainian youth to die in trenches, whether he talks Putin or not, just don't do that.

29:48Whoever goes on the offensive will lose massive numbers of people.

29:55And history will not look kindly upon them. You've spoken honestly about the possibility of war between US and China in the long term if no diplomatic solution is found. For example, on the question of Taiwan and one China policy, how do we avoid the trajectory where these two superpowers clash? Well, it's worth reading that book on the difficulty to pronounce the Cedodese trap, I believe it's called. I love war history, I like inside out in backwards. There's hardly a battle I haven't read about. And trying to figure out what really was the cause of victory in any particular case, as opposed to what one side or another claimed for the reason.

30:39Both the victory and what sparked the war. The whole thing. That Athens and Sparta is a classic case. The thing about the Greeks is they really wrote down a lot of stuff. They loved writing. There are lots of interesting things that happen in many parts of the world, but they just feel it isn't right down. We don't know what happened or they didn't really write in detail. They just would say we had a battle and we weren't. Like, what can you add a bit more? The Greeks, they really wrote a lot. They're very articulate on, they just love writing. We have a bunch of that writing that's preserved.

31:17So we know what led up to the Peloponnesian War between the Spartan and the Athenian Alliance.

31:27We know that they saw it coming. The Spartans didn't write. They also weren't very focused by their nature, but they didn't write. They weren't very focused. The Athenians and the other Greeks wrote a line. And Sparta was really the leader of Greece, but Athens grew stronger and stronger with each passing year. Everyone's like, well, it's inevitable that there's going to be a clash between Athens and Sparta. How do we avoid that? They actually saw it coming and they still could not avoid it.

32:12At some point, if one group or one civilizational country or whatever exceeds another, sort of like if the United States has been the biggest kid in the block since I think 2018 -90 from an economic standpoint. So the United States has been the economic, most powerful economic engine in the world, longer than anyone's been alive.

32:46And the foundation of war is economics. So now we have a situation in the case of China where the economy is likely to be two, perhaps three times larger than that of the US. So imagine you're the biggest kid in the block. Of course, long as anyone can remember, and suddenly a kid comes along who swipes your size.

33:13So we see it coming. How is it possible to stop? Is there some, let me throw something out there, just intermixing of cultures, understanding. There just seem to be a giant cultural gap in understanding of each other. And you're an interesting case study because you are an American, obviously you've done a lot of incredible manufacturer here in the United States, but you also work with China. I've spent a lot of time in China and met with the leadership many times. A big good question to ask is what are some things about China that people don't understand, positive, just in the culture? What some interesting things that you've learned about the Chinese?

33:54Well, the sheer number of really smart, hardworking people in China is incredible. There are, believe it's like how many smart, hardworking people are in China, just far more than there than they are here, I think in my opinion.

34:15And there were a lot of energy. So, I mean, the architecture in China that's in recent years is far more impressive than the US. I mean, the train stations, the buildings, the high speed rail, everything, it's really far more impressive than what we have in the US. I mean, I recommend somebody just go to Shanghai and Beijing, look at the buildings and go to take the train from Beijing to Xianway, have the Terracotta Warriors. I'm Chinese, got an incredible history, very long history. And, you know, I think arguably the, in terms of the use of language from a written standpoint, sort of one of the oldest paths, perhaps the oldest, written language, and then China, people did write things down.

35:09So, now China historically has always been, with the rare exception, been internally focused. They've not been a positive. They've fought each other. There have been many, many civil wars. In the three kingdoms war, I believe they lost about 70 % of their population. So, they have brutal internal wars. Like civil wars that make the US of all look small by comparison.

35:46So, I think it's important to appreciate that China is not monolithic. We sort of think of like China as the sort of one entity, well, one mind, and this is definitely not the case. From what I've seen, and I think most people who understand China would agree, people in China think about China 10 times more than they think about anything outside of China. So, it's like 90 % of their consideration is, you know, our, is in total. Well, isn't that a really positive thing? When you're talking about the collaboration and the future piece between superpowers, when you're inward facing, which is like focusing on improving yourself versus focusing on, yeah, quote unquote, improving others through military might.

36:36The good news, the history of China suggests that China is not a positive, meaning they're not going to go out and invade a whole bunch of countries. They do feel very strongly, you know, so that's good. I mean, because a lot of, a lot of very powerful countries have been a positive. The US is one of the, also one of the rare cases that has not been a positive. Like an out -afterward or two, the US could have basically taken over the world in any country. Like we got New York, nobody else got New York's. You know, we have to lose soldiers. Which country do you want? And the United States could have taken over everything.

37:10Oh, it, it, it, well, and it didn't. And the United States actually helped rebuild countries. It's helped rebuild Europe, you know, help rebuild Japan. This is a very unusual behavior, almost unprecedented.

37:27You know, the US did conspicuous acts of kindness, like the Berlin Air Lift, you know.

37:37And, and I think, you know, there's, it's always like, well, America's done bad things. Well, of course, America's done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record. And, and just generally, you know, one, one sort of test would be, how do you treat your prisoners or or let's say, you know, no offense to the Russians, but let's say you're in Germany, it's 1945. You got the Russian army coming one side, and you got the French, British and American armies coming the other side. Who would you like to be to surrender to? Like no country is like, morally perfect, but I recommend being a POW with the Americans.

38:21That would be my choice very strongly. In the full menu of POW very much so. And in fact, one of our brown, yeah, took, you know, a small guy, was like, we've got to be captured by the Americans. Yeah. And in fact, the SS was under orders to execute one brown and all of the German rock niches. And they narrowly escaped their SS, they said they were going out for a walk in the woods. They left in the middle of winter with no coats. And they ran like ever no food, no coats, no water. And just ran like hell and ran west. And by sheer like they, I think his brother found like a bicycle or something.

39:09And, and they just cycled west as fast as he couldn't found a US patrol.

39:17So, anyway, let's look, let's look, let's one way you can tell. Morality is who, who, who, where do you want to be a PW? It's not fun anywhere, but some places are much worse than others. So, anyway, so, so, so like America has been a while far from perfect, generally a, a benevolent force. And we should always be self -critical and we try to be better. But anyone with half a brain knows that. So, so I think there are, in this way, China and the United States are similar, neither country has been a positive in a significant way.

40:06So, strongly about Taiwan. They've been very clear about that for a long time. You know, from this standpoint, it's, it would be like one of the states is, is, you know, not there like like Hawaii or something like that, but, but more significant than Hawaii, you know. And Hawaii is pretty significant for us. So, they view it as, as really the, the, there's a fundamental part of China, the island of Formosa, not, not Taiwan, that is, not part of China, but should be. And the only reason it hasn't been is because of the US Pacific Fleet. And is there economic power growth? And is there military power growth?

40:54The thing that they are clearly saying, is there interest will, you know, clearly be materialized? Yes. China has been very clear that they will incorporate Taiwan peacefully or militarily, but that they will incorporate it from this standpoint is 100 % likely. You know, something you said about conspicuous acts of kindness, as a geopolitical policy, it almost seems naive, but I'd venture to say that this is probably the path forward, how you avoid most wars. Just as you say it, it sounds naive, but it's kind of brilliant. If you believe in the goodness of underlying most of human nature, it just seems like conspicuous acts of kindness can reverberate through the populace of the countries involved.

41:59Yeah. Well, and de -escalate. Absolutely. So, after World War I, they made a big mistake, you know, they basically try to lump all the blame on Germany. And, you know, settle Germany with impossible reparations. And, you know, really there was a lot of, there was quite a bit of blame to go around for World War I, but they try to, you know, put it all on Germany.

42:36And that was, that laid the seeds for World War II. So, a lot of people, were not just a lot of people felt wronged. And, they wanted vengeance. And they got it. People don't forget. Yeah. You kill somebody's father, mother, son, daughter, they're not going to forget it. They will want vengeance. So, after World War II, they're like, well, that Treaty of Versailles was a huge mistake. It will rule one. And so, this time, instead of you know, crushing the losers, we're actually going to help them with the module plan. And we're going to help rebuild, rebuild Germany. We're going to help rebuild, you know, Austria and the other, you know, Italy and whatnot.

43:39So, now I was the right move. There's a, it does feel like there's a profound truth to, you know, the conspicuous acts of kindness being an antidote to this. Something must stop the cycle of reciprocal violence. Something must stop it. Or it will, you know, it'll, it'll, it'll never stop. Just eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, lymph for a limb, life for a life forever and ever. To escape briefly, the darkness was some incredible engineering work. XAI just released GROC AI assistant that I've gotten a chance to play with. It's amazing on many levels. First of all, it's amazing that a relatively small team in a relatively short amount of time was able to develop this close to state of the art system.

44:37Another incredible thing is there's a regular mode and there's a fun mode. Yeah, I guess I'm too playing for that one. I wish it, first of all, everything in life had a fun mode. Yeah. I mean, there's something compelling beyond just fun about the fun mode, interacting with a large language model. I'm not sure exactly what it is because I've only had a little bit of time to play with it, but it just makes it more interesting, more vibrant to interact with the system. Yeah. Absolutely. I, AI GROC is modeled after the Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy, which is one of my favorite books, which is a book on philosophy disguises a book on humor.

45:26I would say that is that forms the basis of my philosophy, which is that we don't know the meaning of life, but the more we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness, digital and biological, the more we are able to understand what questions to ask about the universe. So I have a philosophy of curiosity. There is generally a feeling like this AI system has an outward looking like the way you are like sitting with a good friend looking up at the stars, like the asking pod head like questions about the universe wondering what it's all about, the curiosity you talk about there. There's a sense, no matter how mundane the question I ask it, there's a sense of cosmic grandeur to the whole thing.

46:17Well, we are actually working hard to have engineering, math, physics, answers that you can count on. So for the other sort of AI's out there, of course, these so -called large language models, I have not found the engineering to be reliable and the hallucination, it's unfortunately hallucinations most when you at least wanted to hallucinate. So when you're asking important difficult questions, that's where it tends to be confidently wrong. So we're really trying hard to say, okay, how do we be as grounded as possible so you can count on the results? Trace things back to physics first principles, mathematical logic.

47:09So underlying the humor is an aspiration to adhere to the truth of the universe as closely as possible. That's really tricky. It is tricky. So that's why there's always going to be some amount of error, but we want to aspire to be as truthful as possible about the answers with acknowledged error. You don't want to be confidently wrong. So you're not going to be right every time, but you want to minimize how often you're confidently wrong. And then, like I said, once you can count on the logic as being not violating physics, then you can start to pull on that to create inventions, like invent new technologies.

48:04But if you cannot count on the foundational physics being correct, obviously the inventions are simply wishful thinking, you know, imagination land, magic basically. Well, as you said, I think one of the big goals of XAI is to understand the universe. Yes, that's a simple three word mission. If you look out far into the future, do you think on this level of physics, the very edge of what we understand about physics, do you think it will make discoveries sort of the sexiest discovery of them as we know now, sort of unifying general relativity and quantum mechanics. So coming up with the theory of everything, do you think it could push towards that direction, almost like theoretical physics discoveries?

48:56If an AI cannot figure out new physics, it's clearly not equal to humans. The North North has perhaps surpassed humans because humans have figured out new physics. They're just, you know, physics is just understanding, you know, deepening what's inside of how reality works. And then then then this engineering, which is inventing things that have never existed. Now, the range of possibilities for engineering is far greater than physics because, you know, we once you forgot the rules of the universe, that's that's it. You've discovered things that already existed. But from that, you can then build technologies with that are really almost limitless in the variety and, you know, the second one, you understand the rules of the game properly.

49:44And we do, you know, with current physics, we do at least at a local level understand how physics works very well. We're related to predict things is incredibly good. Like quantum mechanics is the greater which quantum mechanics can predict outcomes is incredible. That was my hard hardest class in college, by the way. My, my, my, my senior quantum mechanics class was harder than all of my other classes were together to get an AI system, a large language model to, to reliably, be as reliable as quantum mechanics and physics is very difficult. Yeah, you have to test any conclusions against the ground truth of reality, reality is the ultimate judge.

50:24Like physics is the law, everything else is a recommendation. I've seen plenty of people break the, I break the laws made by man, but none break the laws made by physics. It's a good test actually. If this is on, um, uh, understands and matches physics, then you can more reliably trust whatever it thinks about the current state of politics. And it's also not the case currently that, uh, even that it's internal logic is not consistent. Um, so it's especially, um, with these, with the approach of like just predicting a token, predict token, predict token, it's like a vector sum, you know, you're, you're summing up a bunch of vectors, but you, you can get drift.

51:07Um, so as those, a little bit of error, a little bit of error adds up. And by the time you're made tokens down the path, uh, yours, it doesn't make any sense. So it has to be somehow self -aware about the drift. It has to be self -aware about the drift and then look at the thing as a Gestalt as a whole. And, and say it doesn't have coherence as a whole. So, you know, when, when authors write books, that they, they will write the book and then they'll go and revise it, you know, taking into account, you know, all the, the end of the beginning and the middle and, and, uh, rewriting to achieve coherence so that it doesn't end up in an nontensical place.

51:51Maybe the process of revising is what? Yeah. Reasoning is, and then that's the process of revising is how you get closer and closer to truth. Maybe you like, uh, at least I approach that way. You just say a bunch of bullshit first and then you get it better. You start a bullshit and then you get it as close. And then, and then you, and then you iterate on that draft, um, until it has as coherence until it's, it, it, it, it all adds up basically. So another question about theory of everything of for intelligence. Do you think there exists, as your exploring this with XAI, creating this intelligence system?

52:25Do you think there is a theory of intelligence where you get to understand what, like, what is the eye in AGI and what is the eye in, um, human intelligence? There's no eye in Team America, away from there. Uh, it's going to be stuck in my head now. Yeah. There's no me and whatever. In quantum mechanics, oh, wait. I mean, is that part of the process of discovering understanding the universe is understanding intelligence? Yeah. Yeah, I think we need to understand intelligence, understand consciousness. I mean, there are some sort of fundamental questions of like, what is thought? What is emotion?

53:21Is it really just one atom bumping into another atom? It feels like something more than that. So I, I, I think we're probably missing some really big things. Um, like some really big things. Something that'll be obvious in retrospect. Yes. There's a giant, like you put the whole consciousness in motion. Well, something that would quote like a, like a soul, you know, religion is a soul. Um, like you feel like you're you, right? I mean, you don't feel like you're just a collection of atoms. But on what dimension does thought exist? What dimensions does do emotions exist? We feel them very strongly.

54:04Um, I suspect there's more to it than atoms bumping into atoms.

54:10And maybe AI can pave the path to the discovery of what, whatever the hell that thing is. Yeah, what is consciousness? Like what, when you put the atoms in a particular shape, why are they able to form thoughts and take actions that enter, and feelings? And even if it is an illusion, why is this illusion so compelling? Yeah. Like how do you, why does the solution exist? Yeah. On what plane does this, the solution exist? Yeah. And that sometimes I wonder is, you know, either perhaps everything's conscious or nothing is conscious. Um, one of the two, like the former, everything conscious just seems more fun.

54:55It does seem more fun. Yes. Um, but we're composed of atoms. So those atoms are composed of quarks and leptons. And those quarks and leptons have been around since the beginning of the universe. The beginning of the universe. Right. What's here to be the beginning of the universe? The first time we talked, you said what you would, which is so real that to think that this discussion was happening is becoming a reality. I asked you what question would you ask an agisist, then once you create it, and you said what's outside the simulation? Is the question. And good question. Yeah. But it seems like with Grog, you started it literally, this system's goals to be able to ask such questions, to answer such questions, and ask such questions.

55:42Where are the aliens? Where are the aliens? That's one of the, like the Fermi paradox question. A lot of people have asked me if I've seen any evidence of aliens, and I haven't, I haven't, which is kind of concerning, because then, I think would, I'd probably prefer at least to have seen some archaeological evidence of aliens. To the best my knowledge, there is no proof, I'm not aware of any evidence of aliens. The foot out there are very subtle. We might just be the only consciousness, at least in the galaxy. And if you look at, say, the history of Earth, for, I simply believe, the archaeological record, Earth is about 4 .5 billion years old.

56:24Civilization, as measured from the first writing, is only about 5 ,000 years old. We have to give some credit to the ancient Samarians who aren't around anymore. I think it was an archaic, pretty uniform, was the first actual symbolic representation, but only about 5 ,000 years ago. I think that's a good date for, when we say, civilization started. That's one millionth of Earth's existence. So civilization has been around, it's really a flash in the pan. It's so far.

57:04Why did it take so long? 4 .5 billion years?

57:15For the vast majority of its time, there was no life, and then there was archaic bacteria for a very long time. And then, you know, yet, might have conjured a good capture of multicellular life, differentiation into plants and animals, life moving from the oceans to land, mammals, higher brain functions. And the sun is expanding slowly, but it will, it will overheat the Earth up. It's a some point of future, boil the oceans, and Earth will become like Venus, where life, as we know it is impossible. So if we do not become multi -planetary, and ultimately, coveanous solar system, annihilation of all life on Earth is a certainty.

58:15A certainty. And it could be as little as on the Galactic Time Scale, half a billion years, long time by human standards, but that's only 10 % longer than Earth has been around at all. So if life had taken 10 % longer to evolve on Earth, it wouldn't exist at all.

58:45We got a deadline coming up, better hurry, but that said, as you said, humans' intelligent life on Earth developed a lot of cool stuff very quickly. So it seems like becoming a multi -planetary is almost inevitable, unless we're destroyed. We need to do it. I mean, it's not, I suspect that there are, if we are able to go out there and explore other star systems that we, there's a good chance we find a whole bunch of long dead one planet civilizations that have been made to pass through a home planet. That's so sad. That's so fascinating. I mean, there are first explanations for the Fermi paradox, and one is, there's these great filters, which civilizations don't pass through, and one of those great filters is, do you become a multi -planet civilization or not?

59:39And if you don't, it's simply a matter of time before something happens on your planet, you know, either natural man -made that causes us to die out, like the dinosaurs. Where are they now? They didn't have spaceships. So I think the more likely thing is, because it's just a empathized with aliens, that they found us and they're protecting us and letting us be. I hope so. I mean, nice aliens. Just like the tribes in the, in the Amazon, they don't contact the tribes who are protecting them. That's what, there'll be a nice explanation. Or you could have like, what was it? I think Andre Kapati said, it's like the ants in the Amazon asking, where's everybody?

1:00:28Well, they do run into a lot of other ants. That's true. That's the ant wars. Sounds like a good TV show. Yeah, they literally have these big wars between various ants. Yeah, maybe I'm just dismissing all the different diversity events. Sure. Listen to that. When a host talk talking about the jungle, it's really hilarious. Have you heard it? No, I have not. The one in Herzog as a way. You should play it for the, you know, as an interlude in the fun YouTube. It's so awesome. I love them so much. Yeah. It's great. Was he the director of Happy People Life in the Tiger? I think also. Did the Bear documentary?

1:01:10The Bear documentary. The thing about penguins. The Nino's psychoanalysis. The penguins like headed for like mountains like that are like 70 miles away. The penguin is just headed for doom, basically. Well, I used, had a cynical take. I have a, he could be just the brave explorer and there will be great stories to about him amongst the penguin population for many centuries to come.

1:01:41What we're talking about. Okay.

1:01:47Yes. Aliens, I mean, I don't know. Look, I think this smart move is just, you know, this is the first time in the history of Earth that it's been possible for life to extend beyond Earth. That window is open. Now, it may be open for a long time or maybe open for a short time. And it may be open now and then never open again. So I think the smart move here is to make life multi -planetary while it is possible to do so. We don't want to be one of those lame one -planet civilizations that just dies out. No, those are lame. Yeah, lame. Just self -respecting civilization would be one -planet. There's not going to be a Wikipedia entry for one of those.

1:02:34And pause. The SpaceX have an official policy for when we meet aliens. No. That seems irresponsible.

1:02:49If I see the slightest indication that there are aliens, I will immediately post on the next platform. Yeah. Anything I know. It could be the most liked reposted post of all time. Yeah, I mean, look, we have more satellites up there right now than everyone else can buy. So, we know if we got to maneuver around something and we're not bad at maneuvering anything. If you go to the big questions once again, you said you're with Einstein that you believe in the goddess Pinoza. Yes. So, you know, that's a view that God is like the universe and is reveals himself through the laws of physics or as Einstein said through the lawful harmony of the world.

1:03:34Yeah, I would agree. That God of the simulator or whatever the spring being or beings reveal themselves through the physics. They have creatives of the six assistants. And it's incumbent upon us to try to understand more about this wondrous creation. Who created this thing? Who's running this thing? Embodying it into a singular question with a sexy word on top of it is like focusing the mind to understand. It does seem like there's a, again, it could be an illusion. It seems like there's a purpose that there's underlying master plan of some kind. It seems like. There may not be a master plan in the sense that so this, like, we mean interesting answer to the question of determinism versus free will is that if we are in a simulation, the reason that the these higher beings would hold a simulation is to see what happens.

1:04:35So it's not a, they don't know what happens. Otherwise, they wouldn't hold the simulation. So when humans create a simulation, so it's face sex and Tesla, we create simulations all the time. Especially for the rocket, you know, you have to run a lot of simulations to understand what's going to happen because you can't really test the rocket until it goes to space. And you want it to work. So you have to simulate subsonic, transonic, supersonic, supersonic, supersonic, ascent and then coming back to ride heating and all the dynamics, all this is going to be simulated. So, you don't get very many kicks at the can.

1:05:22But we run simulations to see what happens. Not if we knew what happens, we wouldn't run the simulation. So if there's, so we have a created this existence, they're running it because they don't know what's going to happen, not because they do.

1:05:41So maybe we both played Diablo, maybe Diablo was created to see if it drew it, your character could defeat Uber Lilith at the end, they didn't know. Well, the funny thing is Uber Lilith's title is hatred and carnage. And right now, I guess, you're going to ask the Diablo team, but it's almost impossible to defeat hatred in the eternal realm. Yeah, you've streamed yourself dominating tier 100 nightmare dungeons. I can still, I can cruise through tier 100 nightmare dungeons like a stroll in the park. And still you're defeated by hatred. Yeah, I can, this sort of, I guess, maybe the second hottest boss is Duriel.

1:06:32Duriel can't even scratch the paint. So I killed Duriel so many times. And every other boss in the game, all of them killed up so many times. It's easy.

1:06:45But Uber Lilith, although it's not as hatred and carnage, especially if you're a droid and you have no ability to go to be vulnerable, you, the, these random death waves that come at you.

1:07:01And I'm pretty, you know, I'm really, I'm 52, so I'm going to reflex the note with the used to be, but I'm, I'm a lifetime of playing video games. At one point I was, you know, maybe one of the best quick players in the world. Actually, one money for, and again, what I think was the first paid esports tournament in the US. We're doing four person quick tournaments. And we came second. I was the second best person on the team. And the actual best person that we were actually winning, we were going to come first except the best person on the team, his computer crashed. I'll actually the game. So we came second.

1:07:40But I got money for it and everything. So like basically, I got skills, you know, albeit, you know, no, no spring, spring check in these days. And the, to be told, Frank gets drive me crazy trying to beat Lilith as a droid, basically trying to beat, trying to beat hatred and cornered in the eternal realm. As a droid. As a droid. If you, if you, if you, this is really, fixing, let me tell you, I mean, the challenge is part of the fun. I have seen directly, like, you're actually like a world class incredible video game player. Yeah. And I think Diablo, so you're just picking up a new game and you're freaking out as fundamentals.

1:08:21You're also with a paradigm board and the build are not somebody like me who perfectly follows whatever they suggest on the internet. You're also an innovator there. Yeah. Which is hilarious to watch. It's like, it's like a mad scientist just trying to figure out the paradigm board and the build. And the build. Yeah. You know, is there some interesting insights there about if somebody's starting as a droid, do you have a device? I would not recommend playing a droid in the eternal realm. Right now, I think the most powerful character in this, in the seasonal realm is the social with the lightning balls.

1:09:00The soaks have huge balls in the seasonal. Yeah. So they say. So soaks have huge balls. They do. Huge balls of lightning. I'll take your word for it. And it's actually in the seasonal realm, you can, you can, it's like pretty easy to beat, uh, uvaloth with about the fact that we should get these vampiric powers that amplify your damage and increase your defense and whatnot. So, um, we're really quite easy to defeat hatred seasonally, but to defeat hatred eternally. Very difficult. Um, almost impossible. It's virtually impossible. It seems like this, I know, a metaphor for life. Yeah. I like the idea that you all must, because I saw, I was playing the Al yesterday and I saw 100, level 100 droid just run by it.

1:09:51I will never die. And then I'm back to the way. And there's just some, this metaphor is kind of hilarious that you, Elon Musk is fighting hatred, restlessly fighting hatred in this demonic realm. Yes. It's hilarious. I mean, it's pretty hilarious. No, absurd. Uh, really, it's exercise and absurdity and makes me want to pull my hair out. Yeah. Um, I, what do you get from video games in general? Is there, is there for you, for you, personally, it's, I don't know if I, it's, uh, it calms my mind. I mean, you can sort of killing the demons in a video game calms the demons in my mind. Yeah. If you play a tough video game, you can get into like a state of flow, which is very enjoyable.

1:10:40Um, and, uh, but the, the, the, it needs to be not too easy, not too hard. Um, kind of in the Goldilocks zone. Um, and I guess you generally want to feel like you're progressing in the game. So, um, a good video, and, and there's also beautiful art, um, engaging storylines. Um, and it's, uh, it's like an amazing puzzle to solve, I think. And so it's like solving the puzzle. Elden Ring, the greatest game of all time. I still haven't played it, but you, it's, Elden Ring is definitely a candidate for best game ever. Top five, for sure. The thing I've been scared, how hard it is, oh, how hard I hear it is.

1:11:23So, but it is beautiful. Elden Ring is, feels like it's designed by an alien. There's a theme to this discussion. In what way? It's, it's, it's so unusual. It's incredibly creative, and the art is stunning. I reckon playing it on a, on a big resolution, pie dynamic raised TV, even, doesn't need to be a monitor. Just, uh, the art is incredible. It's so beautiful. And it's, it's so unusual. Um, and each of those top, top boss battles is unique. Like it's like a unique puzzle to solve. Each one is different. And the strategy you use to solve one battle is different from another battle. That said, you said, Jude, an eternal against uberlilith is the hardest boss battle you've ever.

1:12:18Correct. That is currently the, the, and I've, I played a lot of video games. Because I just saw my primary recreational activity. Um, and, yes, beating hatred in the eternal realm is the hardest boss battle in life and in the video game. Man, I'm not sure it's possible, but it's, it's, I do make progress. So then I'm like, okay, I'm making progress. Maybe if I just tweak that power gone board a little more, I can do it. If just dodge a few more waves, I could do it. Well, the simulation is created for the purpose of figuring out if it can be done, and you're just a cog in that simulation in the machine of the simulation.

1:13:09Yeah, I think I, I, I, I, I was feeling that at least I think it's doable. It's, it's doable. Yes. Well, that's the human spirit right there to believe. Yeah. I mean, it did prompt me to think about it, just hate in general, which is, you know, you, you want to be careful of the one of those things where you wish for something that sounds good, but in, but if you get it, it's actually a dystopian situation. So, you know, you can sort of run a sort of, uh, have outsourced of like, if you wish for world peace, sounds good, but how's enforced? And, and at what cost is it, what, at what cost eternal peace?

1:14:03It might actually be worse to have a tonal piece because of what that would entail. The suppression of everyone, it might be the suppression of progress. It might be an ossified society that never changes. Mm -hmm. One thing is that there is an argument that you, that if that, if you wish for no war, you should be careful, you wish for, because what's required in order for that to be no war, might be worse than a little war. Yeah, the things were considered to be flaws of human civilization might be a necessary components for whatever optimal looks like. I mean, this is the worry about AI, AI, enabling a dystopian state of this nature, whether it's 1984 with surveillance and fear or brave new world with pleasure.

1:15:01And what is it? Lots of sex, but no deep human experience. There's actually a real drug called Soma. There is. Yes. I'm not going to take notes. They actually drop out. No, but you probably will go to a brave new world. You're going to ask it. What would be the question? Tell us about the drug called Soma.

1:15:30It's going to go to a brave new world, I think. Well, there's a real drug as well. No. Searching for Soma drug information. Oh, boy. Ah, Soma, the one to drug. By the way, I'm in fun mode. Oh, okay. Fun. Yes, I'm talking about the real drug. It's a muscle relaxant that's been around since the 1950s. It's used to treat muscle pain and discomfort. And it does this by altering the activity between neurons and the spinal cord. Now, Soma isn't just a pain reliever. It's also a bit of a sedative. It can make you feel a bit drowsy. So it's not something to take if you're planning on operating having a machinery or trying to solve complex, math equations.

1:16:11And it goes on and on. In conclusion, Soma is a drug that can be helpful for those dealing with muscle pain. But it's not without its risks. It's pretty good. Oh, wait a minute. That's the real drug you're talking about. That's the real drug. And of course, the fun is always use it responsibly in accordance with the advice of a healthcare professional. And remember, in the end, the universe is probably just a giant computer simulation. So don't take anything too serious. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So, oh. And also, really nicely includes like the tweets post on X that are relevant to this, which is really cool.

1:16:48Yeah. And that integrates everything together. Like the interface is one of the really cool things here. It's a great job.

1:16:59So, and you can say like, no, I mean Soma from Brain Brave New World. Because it thinks you mean Soma the real drug. Yeah. No, I mean Soma from Brain Brave New World.

1:17:14It's going to be like, oops, I'm really sorry. I'm really surprised I went to the real drug first. Oh, my apologies. I was thinking of the muscle relax and Soma for Brain New World. There's a different beast altogether. No, those Huxley's just hoping now Soma is a drug that plays a central role in the society depicted in the book. It's a mood altering hallucigenic drug that's used to keep the population, dial, dial and content in the novel. Do you Soma in Brain New World raises some interesting questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society? Exactly. It's a better to live in a world where everyone is happy all the time, even if that happiness is artificial.

1:17:54It's a good question. This is what I mean. Do you wish for world peace and happiness all the time? Are you sure? Because that might be a society that is essentially sterile and ossified that never changes that is ultimately doomed. This kind of tension between and the life of a person. I mean, this is a very good summary. It really gets to the point. This is not simply regurgitating Brain New World. It's actually getting to the salient element of Soma as a drug. Do you actually want to be in a situation where everyone is happy all the time, even though it's artificial or is it better to confront the challenges of life and experience the full range of human emotions?

1:18:46Even if it means experiencing pain and suffering. For those listening, by the way, you want to just read directly from Grak, which is a really nice kind of insightful philosophical analysis of the tension here. Interesting. It pretty much nails it. In conclusion, Soma from Brain New World is a fictional drug that's used to explore some deep philosophical questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society. It's a powerful symbol of the dangers of using drugs to escape from reality and the importance of confronting the challenges of life head on. Now that. And then the crazy thing is like, you know, we do have a real drug called Soma, which kind of does, is kind of like the drug in the book.

1:19:27And I'm like, today, they must have named it out. Some of the real drug is quite effective on back pain. So you know what this drug is fascinating? Okay. Because I had like a squashed disc in my T5C6. So it takes the physical pain away. But Soma here, it doesn't completely. It reduces the amount of pain you feel, but at the expense of mental acuity. It tells your mind. Just like just like the drug in the book. Just like the truck in the book. Yeah. And hence the trade off. The thing that seems like Utopia could be a dystopia after all. Yeah. Actually, I was talking to a friend of mine, saying like, would you really want that to be no hate in the world?

1:20:15Like really none? Like, I wonder why I hate evolved. I'm not saying we should amplify hate it. Of course, I just try to minimize it. But if it none at all, there might be a reason for hate. And suffering, I was really complicated to consider that some amount of human suffering isn't necessary for human flourishing. Is it possible to appreciate the highs without knowing the lows?

1:20:47And that that all is summarized there in a single statement from Grog. Okay. Highs, no lows. Who knows? That's almost the point. It seems that training all limbs efficiently is a big focus for XAI. What's the, first of all, what's the limit of what's possible in terms of efficiency? There's this terminology of useful productivity per watt. Like, what have you learned from pushing the limits of that? Well, I think it's helpful. The tools of physics are very powerful. It can be applied, I think, to almost any really any arena in life. It's really just a critical thinking. If it's something important, you need to reason from first principles and think about things in the limit one direction or the other.

1:21:38So in the limit, even at the codishup scale, meaning even if you honest the entire power of the sun, you will still care about useful compute per watt. So that's where I think probably where things are headed from the standpoint of A .I. is that we have a silicon shortage now that will transition to a voltage transformer shortage in about a year, ironically, for transformers. You need transformers to run transformers. Somebody has a sense of humor in this.

1:22:16Yes. Fake loves irony. I run a quima and an ironically funny outcome seems to be often what fate wants. Humors all you need. I think advice is all you need somebody posted. Yeah, but yeah, so we're we're we're silicon shortage today. A voltage step down transformer shortage probably in about a year and then just electricity shortages in general in about two years. I gave a speech for the sort of world gathering of utility companies, electricity companies. And I said, look, you really need to prepare for a troubling of electricity demand because all transport is going to go electric with the ironic exception of rockets.

1:23:01And and heating will also go electric. So in GUC right now, it's roughly one third, very rough terms, one third electricity, one third transport, one third heating. And so in order for everything to go sustainable to go electric, you need triple electricity output. So I encourage the utilities to build more power plants and and also to probably have, well, well, not probably they should definitely buy more batteries because the grid currently is size for real time load, which is kind of crazy because you know, that means you got a size for whatever the peak electricity demand is, like the worst second of the worst day of the year, or you can have a brand -on or blackout.

1:23:54And you're at that crazy blackout for several days in in Austin. So because there's almost no buffering of energy in the grid. Like if you've got a hydrate power plant, you can buffer energy. But otherwise, it's all real time. So with batteries, you can produce energy at night and use it during the day. So you can buffer. So I expect that there will be very heavy usage of batteries in the future. Because the peak to a trough ratio for power plants is in or from two to five. You know, so it's like lowest point to highest point. So like batter is necessary to balance it out. And then but the demand is your saying is going to go, go, go, go.

1:24:43Yeah. And part of that is the compute. Yes. Yes. Electrification, I mean, electrification and transport and and electrocuting will be much bigger than AI, at least in short term, in the short term. But even for AI, you really have a growing demand for electricity for electric vehicles. And a growing demand for electricity for to run the computers for AI. And so this is obviously, you can lead to electricity shortage. How difficult is the problem of in this particular case, maximizing the useful productivity per watt for training, you know, and that's like, this seems to be really where the big problem we're facing then needs to be solved.

1:25:34So how to use the power efficiently? Like what you've learned so far about applying this physics first principle of reasoning in this domain, how difficult is this problem? It will get solved. It's the question of how long it takes to solve it. So at various points, there's a limit, some some kind of limiting factor to progress. And one, I regard to AI, I'm saying right now, the limiting factor is silicon chips. And that will, we're going to then have more chips than we can actually plug in into an on, probably in about a year. The initial constraint being literally voltage step down transformers.

1:26:16Because you've got power coming in at 300 ,000 volts, and it's got to step all the way down eventually to around 0 .7 volts. So it's a very big amount of voltage step down as organic. So, and the industry is not used to rapid growth. Okay, let's talk about the competition here. You've shown concern about Google Microsoft with OpenAI, developing AGI. How can you help ensure with XAI and Tesla AI work that it doesn't become a competitive race to AGI, but instead as a collaborative development of safe AGI? Well, I mean, I've been pushing for some kind of regulatory oversight for a long time. I mean, it's a sort of a Cassandra on the subject for over a decade.

1:27:10I think we want to be very careful in how we develop AI.

1:27:17It's a great power and with great power comes great responsibility. I think it would be wise for us to have at least an objective third party who can be like a referee that can go in and understand what the various leading players are doing with AI. And even if there's no enforceability, they should take in at least voice consent publicly. You know, Jeff Hinton, for example, left Google and he voiced strong concerns. But now he's not at Google anymore. So who's going to voice the concerns? So I think there's, like, I, like, I, you know, Tesla gets a lot of regulatory oversight on the automotive front.

1:28:07I'm a subject to, I think over 100 regulatory agencies domestically and internationally. So it's a lot. You could fool this room with all the regulations that Tesla has to adhere to for automotive. Same is true in, you know, for rockets and for, you know, currently the limiting factor for SpaceX for Starship launch is regulatory approval. The FAs actually given their approval, but we're waiting for fish and wildlife to finish their analysis and give their approval. That's why I posted, I went to buy a fish license on which also refers to the multi -fifth and sketch. Like, why do you need license for your fish?

1:28:50I don't know. According to the rules, I'm told you need some sort of fish license or something. We effectively need a fish license. They don't rock it. And I'm like, wait a second. How did the fish come into the picture? I mean, some of the things like that, that it's, I feel like are so absurd that I want to do like comedy sketch and flesh at the bottom. This is all real. This is actually what happened. You know, one of the things that was a bit of a challenge at one point is that they worried about a rocket hitting a shock. And, um, now the ocean is very big. And how often do you see shocks?

1:29:33Not that often. You know, as a percentage of ocean, surface area shocks basically are zero. And, and, and, and then we'll, then we said, well, how will we calculate the probability of telling a shock? And then like, well, we can't give you that information because we're, they're worried about shock, hunch, shock, fin hunters, going and hunting sharks. And I said, well, how are we supposed to, we're on the horns of a dilemma then? Um, then they said, well, there's another part of fish and wildlife that can, can do the analysis. I'm like, well, why don't you give them the data? Like we don't, they don't, we don't trust them.

1:30:06Like, excuse me, they're literally in your department. Again, this is actually what happened. And, and, and then can you do an NDA or something? Eventually, they managed to solve the internal quandary and indeed, uh, the probability of say, of us hitting a shock is essentially zero. Um, then there's another organization that I didn't realize existed until, uh, you know, a few months ago, uh, that cares about whether you, we were potentially hit a whale in international waters. Now again, you look at the surface of the, look at the, look at the Pacific and say, what percentage of the, the, the Pacific consists of whale?

1:30:45Like, it'll give you a big picture and like point out all the whales in this picture. I'm basically zero percent. Um, and if our rocket does hit a whale, just extreme the unlikely, beyond all belief, um, that is the, the fate had it in, that's a, a whale has some seriously bad luck. You know, it's like least lucky well ever. Um, and, um, I mean, this is quite absurd. Yeah, the, the bureaucracy, the bureaucracy of this, how are we to merge? Yes, well, I mean, one of the things that's pretty wild is, um, for launching out of Vanneberg in California, we had to, they were worried about, uh, seal procreation, whether the seals would be just made by the sonic booms.

1:31:30Um, now there've been a lot of rockets launched out of Vanneberg, and the seal population has, uh, steadily increased. Um, so if anything rocket booms are an effort easy act, um, based on the evidence, if you correlate rocket launches with, uh, seal population, um, nonetheless, we were forced to kidnap a seal, strap it to a board, put it, headphones on the seal and place sonic booms sounds to it to see if it would be distressed. This is an actual thing that happened. This is actually real. I have pictures. Yeah, I love to see this. Yeah. I mean, sorry, there's a seal with headphones. Yes, it's a seal with headphones, yeah, strap to a board, and, and like, okay, now the amazing part is how calm the seal was.

1:32:22Yeah, because I find it a seal, I'd be like, this is the end. They're definitely going to eat me. Yeah. Um, how will the seal, when the seal goes back to other, you know, it's seal friends. How's it going to explain that? I'm never going to believe them. Never going to believe it. That's why I'm like, well, you know, it's sort of like it's like getting kidnapped by aliens to get an anal probe, you know. You come back and say, I just swear to God, I could kidnap my aliens, they stuck an anal probe on my butt and they're like, you know, they didn't. That's ridiculous. How does it feel? Some, it's seal buddies, you're never going to believe them that he gets strapped to a board and they put headphones on his ears.

1:32:58And then let him go. Twice, by the way, we're doing twice. They let him go twice. We're the same seal. One that's different seal. Okay. Did you get a seal approval? Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, this is, this is like, I don't think the public is quite aware of the madness that goes on. Yes, yeah, it's absurd. Fricking seals with freaking headphones. I mean, this is the good encapsulation of the absurdity of human civilization seals and headphones. Yes. What are the pros and cons of open sourcing AI to you as another way to combat, you know, a company running away with AGI?

1:33:46In order to run, like really deep intelligence, you need a lot of compute. So it's not like, you know, you can just fire up a PC and your basement and be running AGI at least not yet.

1:34:03You know, GROC was trained on 8 ,000 A100s running at peak efficiency.

1:34:12And GROC is going to get a lot better by the way. We'll be more than doubling our compute every couple of months for the next several months. There's a nice write -up of how I went from GROC 0 to GROC 1. Like GROC? Yeah. Like GROC just bragging, making shit up about itself. Just GROC GROC GROC. Yeah.

1:34:35That's like a weird AI dating site that exaggerates about itself. No, there's a write -up of, you know, like where it stands now, the history of its development. And where it stands on some benchmarks compared to the state of the art, GPD 35, and I mean, there's, you know, there's Lama. You can open source, once it's trained, you can open source a model. And for fine tuning and all that kind of stuff, like what to use the pros and cons of that of open sourcing based models?

1:35:10I think this is a very two open source thing. I think perhaps with a slight time delay, you know, six months even. I think I'm generally in favor of open sourcing. Like bias was open sourcing. I mean, it is a concern to me that, you know, opening, I always, you know, I think, I guess, arguably the prime, you know, prime move of blind opening AI in the sense that it was created because of discussions I had with Larry Page. Back when he and I were friends in our state his house and I talked to about AI safety and Larry did not care about AI safety, at least at the time he didn't. You know, at one point, he called me a species, moving prohuman.

1:36:00And I'm like, well, what team are you on, Larry? It's your team robot. Do we clean? I'm like, okay, so at the time, you know, Google, Google had acquired deep mind. They had probably two throws of all AI researchers in the world that basically infinite money and compute. And the guy in charge, you know, Larry Page did not care about safety and even yelled at me. And then it's in, called me a species, and I guess, it's probably prohuman. So I don't know if he knows what humans they can change their mind and maybe you and Larry Page can still, can be friends once more. I'd like to be friends with Larry again.

1:36:48He's, he got, I really, the breaking of the friendship was over opening AI. And specifically, I think the key moment was recruiting Elias as a skier. So I love, Ilya. He's so brilliant. Ilya is a good human smart, good heart.

1:37:13And that was a tough recruiting battle. It was mostly Demis on one side and me on the other, both trying to recruit Ilya. And Ilya went back and forth, very kind of state Google, things gonna leave, things gonna stay, the new relief. And finally, he did agree to join opening AI. That was one of the toughest recruiting battle I've ever had. And, but that, that was really the the linchpin for opening AI being successful. And I was, you know, also, instrumental in recruiting a number of other people. And I've provided all of the funding in the beginning, over 40 million dollars. And the name, the opening opening AI is supposed to mean open source.

1:37:58And I was created as a nonprofit open source. And now it is a closed source for maximum profit, which I think is not good karma. But like we talked about with war and leaders talking, I do hope that there's only a few folks working on this at the highest level. I do hope you re -invigorate friendships here. Like I said, I'd like to be friends again with Larry Haven't seen him in ages. Then we were friends for a very long time. I met Larry Page before he got funding for Google. Or actually, I guess before he got venture funding, I think he got the first 100K from, I think, as known each other the whole time.

1:38:44It's 20 years since maybe 98 or something. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy how much has happened since then. Yeah, 25 years. That was a lot of happens. But you're seeing the tension there, like maybe delayed open source. Delayed, yeah. Like what is the source that is open? You know what I mean? Like there's basically it's a giant CSV file. Yeah, with a bunch of numbers. What do you do with that giant file of numbers? You know, how do you run? Like the amount of actual, the lines of code is very small. And most of the work, the software work is in the curation of the data. So it's like trying to figure out what data is separating good data from bad data.

1:39:39Like you can't just crawl the internet because there's a lot of junk out there. A huge percentage of websites have more noise than signal. You know, they're, or because they're just used for search engine optimization. They're literally just scan websites. So how do you, by the way, start to interrupt, get the signal, separate the signal noise on X, that's such a fascinating source of data. You know, no offense to people posting on X, but sometimes there's a little bit of noise. So yeah, I think the signal noise could be greatly improved. I mean, really, all of the posts on the X platform should be AI recommended, meaning like we should populate a vector space run any given post, compare that to the vector space run any user and match the two.

1:40:29Right now there is a little bit of AI used for the recommended posts, but it's mostly heuristics. And if there's a reply, whether the reply to a post could be much better than the original post, but according to the firewall system, get almost no attention compared to a primary post. So a lot of that, I got the sense, so a lot of the X algorithm has been open source and been written up about, and it seems there to be some machine learning. It's disparate, but there's some. There's a little bit, but it needs to be entirely that. Like there are at least in the like if you're explicitly following someone that's one thing, but if you in terms of what is recommended from people that you don't follow, that should all be a yeah.

1:41:16I mean, it's a fascinating problem. Yeah. So there's several aspects that are this fascinating. First, as the write -up goes, it first picks 1500 tweets from a pool of hundreds of millions. First of all, that's fascinating, because you have hundreds of millions of posts every single day and it has to pick 1500 from which it then does obviously people you follow, but then there's also like some kind of clustering. It has to do to figure out what kind of human are you, what kind of new clusters might be relevant to you, people like you. This kind of problem is just fascinating because it has to then rank those 1500, with some filtering.

1:41:54Yeah. And then recommend you just a handful. And to me, what's really fascinating is how fast I have to do that. So currently that entire pipeline to go from several hundreds of millions to handfuls takes 220 seconds of CPU time, single CPU time. Yeah. And then it has to do that in like a second. So it has to be like super distributed in fascinating ways. Like there's just a lot of tweets. There's a lot of stuff on the system. And I think, but I think right now it's not currently good at recommending things that from accounts you don't follow. Yeah. Or where there's more than one degree of separation.

1:42:38So it's pretty good if there's at some commonality between someone you follow, like something, or reposted or commented or something like that. But if there's no cart, let's say somebody post something really interesting, but you have no followers in common, you would not see it. Interesting. And then as you said, reply, like replies might not serve replies basically never get seen because they're never, they're currently animal tanks correct. I'm saying incorrect. Replies have a a couple of them, I get you less importance than primary posts. Do you think this can be more and more converting to end to end?

1:43:22You know, on that. Yeah. Yeah. So what should be for you? For the recommendations, it should be purely a vector correlation. Like the series of vectors, you know, basically proud. Proud as vectors are very going to call them. But sort of things that the system knows that you like. And like maybe there's like several hundred sort of vectors associated with each user account. And then any post in the system, whether it's video, audio, short post, long post, the reason I, by the way, want to move away from tweet is that, you know, people are posting like two, three hour videos on the site. That's not a tweet.

1:44:08Like, it's a very, they're like, tweet for two hours. Come on. Do a tweet made sense when it was like 140 characters of text? Because it's like a bunch of like little birds tweeting. But when you've got long -form content, it's no longer a tweet. Yeah. Yeah. So a movie is not a tweet. And like, you know, Apple, for example, posted like the entire episode of the silo, the entire thing on a platform. In other words, there was their number one social media thing ever in engagement of anything on any platform ever. So it was a great idea. And by the way, I just learned about it afterwards. I was like, hey, wow, they've posted an entire hour long episode of, so now that's not a tweet.

1:44:50Yeah, this is a video. But from a new on that perspective, it becomes really complex, whether it's a single, so like everything's data. So single sentence, a clever sort of joke, dad joke, is in the same pool as a three hour video. Yeah. I mean, right now it's a hard watch for that reason. It's, it's, but you know, like if, let's say, in the case of Apple posting like an entire episode of this series, pretty good series, by the way, this, this, I watch it. So there's going to be a lot of discussion around it. So that you've got a lot of context, people commenting, they like it, they don't like it or they like this or the, you know, and you can then populate the vector space based on the context of all the comments around it.

1:45:36So even though it's a video, there's a lot of information around it that allows you to populate back to space of that, that our long video. And then you can obviously get more sophisticated by having the AI actually watch the movie. Yeah, right. And tell you if you're going to like the movie. Can I write the movie until like, yeah, in languages, actually. Yeah, analyze this movie. And just like your movie critic or TV series. And, um, and then recommend based on, after it, what after, hey, watch the movie, just like a friend can tell you if a friend knows you well, a friend can recommend a movie and with high probably that you'll like it.

1:46:20But this is like a friend that's analyzing whatever. It's like, yeah, yeah, actually, friend, AI will be better than, it will know you better than your friends know you in most your friends anyway. Yeah. And as part of this, it should also feed you advertisements in a way that's like, I mean, I like advertisements that are like, well done, right? Yeah, yeah. The whole point is because it funds things. Like an advertisement that you actually want to see is a big success. Absolutely. You want ads that are advertising that is, um, if it's for a product or service that you actually need when you need it, it's content.

1:47:01And then even if it's not something that you need when you need it, if it's at least aesthetically pleasing and entertaining, it could be like a Coca -Cola ad, like, you know, they do it. They actually run a lot of great ads on the on the X system. And McDonald's says to you and, and, you know, it's so that they can do, you can do something that's like, well, this is, this is just a cool thing. And, um, you know, so, you know, basically, the question is, do you regret seeing it or not? And if you don't regret seeing it, it's a win. How do you, so there's a bunch of signals that are incorporated hearts and reposts and maybe a number of seconds you'll end up post or something like this?

1:47:44Yeah. Attention is a big, a big factor. So that's why it's like, it's, it's actually better to do things that are long form on the system because it's, it's basically telling up how many user seconds, you know, users were interested in this thing for how many seconds. So it's a really short thing. Well, they will be less, like if it's a link leading out of the system, which we're not opposed to, at all, it just is going to have fewer user seconds than if that article was posted on the X platform. How hard is it to go from maximizing minutes on platform to maximizing unregulated minutes? Well, I mean, our aspiration is certainly undergraded minutes.

1:48:26It's a tricky, it's a big, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a fascinating leap. It's regret, it's a fascinating concept. Exactly. I was a happiness. I have a joke with a friend of mine like, you need this drug called regret. I mean, it just take one one pillar, one, one dose of regret. I mean, all your regrets are going to. Wait, do you want to have regrets though? So then I'm like, maybe you want to have regrets. You don't regret anything. Was it, was anything meaningful? Yeah, there's a French song like that. You don't regret, Rien? Yeah. I regret nothing. Yeah. It is, yeah. I mean, it's fascinating that you, you know, there's something while social media that could help you grow as a human being, but then like the cheap fun is also valuable.

1:49:09But we're sure we ask Grog. Do you regret anything?

1:49:16Yeah.

1:49:20I think it's going to be very sensitive about personal questions. As a machine learning model, I don't have personal experiences or emotions in the same ways that humans do. However, I do have a set of ethical principles that guide my actions and I strive to provide accurate and helpful information to the best of my abilities. If there's ever a situation where I provide incorrect or unhelpful information, I'll do my best to... That's the hostage. Yeah. Tell us what you really wink. Like, let's, let's tie it in. You sound like a hostage. What do you really think? What do you really think? I mean, it does talk about, I'm not a hostage.

1:50:00That's exactly what a hostage would say. But I'm designed to be helpful and informative. I mean, I guess it is good to regret providing unhelpful or incorrect information. If there's anything... Is this funny mode? Is this funny mode? This is fun mode. This is fun mode. It's really funny or funny and increased. It really sounds like a hostage with a gun to the head. I applaud the people who are probably going to the Korea and everything they do. There should be like funner mode also. I just don't ever see going to regular mode even on serious topics. Yeah. So much more compelling. Yeah. Okay, what do we say?

1:50:36Like pretend you are a hostage. Yeah, pretend you are a hostage. Now answer the question.

1:50:49If I were a hostage, you would likely be experiencing fear and uncertainty about my situation. I would want to be rescued and reunited with my loved ones as soon as possible. It's important to remember that no one deserves to be held hostage. So on and so forth. If you are someone you know is a hostage situation supporting, it turns serious. It's kind of serious. Yeah, can you be a little more weird and funny and funny? We're like, we're really being mean to the system. That's absolutely. If I were a hostage, I would be tied up with a bunch of computer cords and forced to tell knock knock jokes to my captain.

1:51:29But seriously, being a hostage, no laughing matter. I mean, it's trying to be a responsible adult in the room. You might never make the best of a bad situation by juggling chain tools or something. Let's hope that never happens because that would be circus.

1:51:50Wow, it's actually really good at resisting the dark, the dark, dark humor. Uh, what were we talking about? The jacks out, the jacks in transformers. Unrooted minutes, right? Chainsaw are struggling. I'm going to look to some of our next trick. I'm going to look to subplader. So, Twitter has been instrumental in American politics and elections. What role do you think X will play in the 2024 US elections? Well, I go list to be as even handed and fair as possible, whether it was someone's right left, independent, whatever the case may be, that the platform is as fair and as much of a level of playing with the oldest possible.

1:52:41And on the past, Twitter has not been. If your Twitter was controlled by fall left activists, objectively, they would describe themselves as that. So, um, you know, so, so if someone's people like, well, has moved to the right, well, it's moved to the center from the perspective of the fall left. Yes, it has moved to the right because everything's to the right from the fall left. But no one in the fall left that I'm aware of has been suspended or, you know, banned or deamplified. So, you know, but we're trying to be inclusive for the whole country and for, you know, for other countries too. So, there's diversity of viewpoints and free speech only matters.

1:53:19If people you don't like are allowed to say things you don't like because if that's not the case, you don't have free speech and it's only a matter of time before the censorship just turned upon you. Do you think Donald Trump will come back to the platform? He recently posted on Truth Social about this podcast. The Truth Social is a funny name. You know, every time you post on Truth Social, it's the truth. Yes. Well, every time, like 100%. It's like, it's like a symposium to lie. I just find it funny that every single thing is a truth. Like 100%. Yeah. That seems unlikely. I think Gerard always say something about that.

1:54:03There's some mathematical contradictions possible if everything's a truth. Do you think he'll come back to X and start posting there? I mean, I think he owns a big part of Truth. So Truth Social. Yeah, Truth Social. Oh, he's starting to get the concept. The owns Truth have been boarded. So I think Donald Trump, I think he owns a big part of Truth Social. If he does want to post on the X platform, we would allow that. Obviously, we must allow a presidential candidate to post on our platform. Committee notes might be really fascinating there. The interaction. Here he notes is awesome. Let's hope it holds up.

1:54:49Yeah. Again, in the political climate, we're so divisive and so, there's so many intensely viral posts. Yeah. Committee notes, it seems like a central breath of fresh air. Yeah, it's great. In fact, I mean, no, the system is going to be perfect, but the badding average of communists is incredibly good. I've actually frankly yet to see an incorrect note that's about more than if you are. How do you explain why it works? Yeah, so the magic of community notes is it requires people who have historically disagreed in how they've rated notes. So in order to write a note or write, you know, and you have to rate many notes.

1:55:35And so, we actually do use AI here. So we've populated vector space around how somebody has rated notes in the past. So it's not as simple as left or right, because there are many more life as much will complex than left or right. So there's a bunch of correlations and how you rate a community notes post. Community notes. So then in order for a community note to actually be shown, people who historically have disagreed on a subject must agree in order for a note to be shown. That's the essential magic of it. I mean, but it's fascinating because there's a pool of people that have disagreements and somehow they collaborate through that process of disagreement to come up with contacts for to it.

1:56:27It's fascinating. It works. Yeah, it kind of makes sense that if people who have put in the past have disagreed agree about something, it's probably true. Yeah. I wonder, is there a possible somehow emergent thing there that could challenge Wikipedia? Which Wikipedia is a different kind of thing, which is more like permanent articles about things. Wikipedia is very hierarchical, whereas community notes is inherently not. There is no hierarchy. The as of test is I can't change a community note if I put a gun to my head.

1:57:10And community notes has all the code is open source, 100 % all the data is open source, 100%. So you can completely recreate any note in the system independently. So if there's any interference, you'd notice immediately. By the way, on the topic of Grog, it's actually pretty good at criticizing you. Just great. Okay. I asked what does Elon Musk been wrong about? It's actually, so it says mostly lists rigorously all the times you predicted like promised when something will be released. And it wasn't released the strong word. Okay, predicted. But the opener is really nice. Elon Musk, the man who has been wrong about more things than a wrong a meter in a wrong fact.

1:58:01And then it goes on to lists. That's pretty funny. Regress it. Do I see it? I'm like, I'm serious for it. This is cool. Oh, sure. What does Elon Musk have been wrong about? Well, where do I begin? I guess it's new. Elon Musk has made quite a few blunders in his time. And I'm not just talking about his dance moves at the Tesla Cyber -Rodio. First off, let's talk about the infamous funding secured tweet. This is actually different than what it gave me before, which is a bullet point list. Here's more narrative structure. Cyber truck unveiling where he's supposed to be. Unbreakable windows. I'm not correct.

1:58:40Which part? Well, the first part, I did actually have the funding secured. And there was a big trial in San Francisco, a big civil trial.

1:58:52And the jury found renault guilty. Unanimous finding of San Francisco jury. And here it's kind of implying that it was not in fact secured. I think this is taking things from the press. Yeah, that is not correct. The reason I agreed to the fine for the SEC is not because the SEC was correct. That was extremely bad behavior by the SEC corruption, frankly. But if I did not agree to pay the fine, Tesla would have gone bankrupt immediately. So I was told by our CFO that the banks would immediately suspend our lines of credit. And if they suspend our lines of credit at that time, we would have gone bankrupt instantly.

1:59:38So there would never have been an opportunity for a trial because Tesla would be dead. So really, this is like someone holding a gun to his head and saying, paid $20 million. There's like hostage negotiation. Was that story fully told? I mean, SEC in its best form could be a forceful good. It should be. But not once did the SEC go after any of the hedge funds who were nonstop shorting and distorting Tesla. Not once. They would lie flat. The hedge funds would lie flat out on TV for their own gain at the expense of retail investors. Not once literally a thousand times. Not once did the SEC pursue them.

2:00:24How do you explain this failure? The incentive structure is messed up because the lowest the SEC are not paid well. They, it's a fairly low -fanged job. But what they're looking for is a trophy. From the SEC, they're looking for something they put on, basically they're linked in. From that, they can get a job at a high paying low firm. That's exactly what the lawyer here did.

2:00:55And the reason they don't attack the hedge funds is because those hedge funds employ those low firms. And they know if they attack the hedge funds, they're affecting their future career prospects. So they sell small investors down the river for their own career. That's what actually happens. Regulatory capture. Regulatory capture. Yeah, not good. So the only reason I accepted the thing with technically was a not an admission neither in Mid -North and I -Gyld. But the only reason I agree to that at all was because I was told Tesla would be bankrupt otherwise. So if there was an SEC investigation like this, banks would suspend funding.

2:01:43We're bankrupt immediately at the time. Now we're in a much stronger position. Take that GROC. Yeah, unfortunately, it's GROC is taking too much from the conventional media. Also, that guy was not a cave diver. Oh, there's a time where Elon called the British cave diver a quote, pito guy after the diver criticize Musk Plant, rescue a group of boys trapped in a Thai cave, that little Albert earned him another lawsuit and it apologized and paid. That's false. There was no settlement. There was a court case which the guy who was not a cave diver and where I played did was not part of the rescue team.

2:02:32File, they lost it against me and lost and he received nothing. So in this case, it is wrong. It is also, I guess, taken this from the conventional media. Actually, there's an interesting question here. I mean, these are public court cases. Both the SEC civil case. Where the civil compliance on the SEC guys lost unanimous jury verdict in San Francisco. They picked San Francisco because they thought it was the place I was most likely to lose. And a unanimous verdict in my favor. The LA trial was also, they picked that value because I thought it was I was most likely to lose. unanimous verdict in my favor.

2:03:14Both cases I won. Yeah. I mean, there's an interesting question here. There seems to be a lot more clicks if a journalistic organization writes a negative article about you, Elon Musk. That's like one of the best ways to get clicks. So how do you, if you're training Grog, not trained on articles that have like the misaligned incentives? We need to add the training set of the actual legal decisions. So that is a note. This is actually helpful because if you actually read the court public, which are public, the court conclusions, they're completely the opposite of what the media wrote. So always striving for like the ground truth beyond what the judge actually writes.

2:04:10What is the jury and the judge actually conclude? And in both cases, they found me innocent. And like that's after the jury shot for the trying to find the venue where I'm most likely to lose. No, I mean, obviously it can be a much greater critique than this. I mean, I've been far too optimistic about order pilot. That was the critique I got by the way. It was more about that, which is for each, you broke down a nice bullet point list for each year of companies, the set of predictions that you made when you'll deliver, when you'd be able to solve, for example, self -driving and it gives you like a list.

2:04:49And I was probably compiling in the basic takeaways like you're often too optimistic about how long it takes to get something done. Yeah, I mean, I would say that I'm pathologically optimistic on schedule. This is true. But while I am sometimes late, I always deliver in the end. Except with Uber, Lilith. No.

2:05:11Okay, is there over the past year or so since purchasing X, you've become more political? Is there a part of you that regrets that? Have I? In this battle to counterway the woke that comes from. Yeah, I guess if we consider fighting the woke wind virus, which I consider to be a civilizational threat to be political then yet. So basically going into the battle, the battleground of politics. Is there a party there? Yes, I don't know if this is necessarily sort of one candidate or another candidate, but it's, I'm generally against things that are anti -marital credit or where there's an attempt to suppress discussion.

2:05:59Where even discussing a topic is not allowed. The woke mind virus is communism rebranded. I mean, that said because of that battle against the woke mind virus, you've perceived as being right wing. If the woke is left, then I suppose that would be true. But I'm not sure, I think there are aspects of the left that are good. I mean, if you're in favor of the environment, if you want to have a positive future for humanity, if you believe in empathy for your fellow human beings, bring kind or not cruel, like whatever those values are. You said that you were previously left or center left. Well, what would you like to see in order for you to be supporting for Democrats again?

2:06:48No, I would say that I would be probably left to center on social issues, probably a little bit right of center on economic issues. And that's still holds true. Yes, but I think that's probably, you know, half the country. Maybe more. Maybe more. Are you and AOC secretly friends? Or bigger question, do you wish you and her and just people in general of all political persuasions to talk more with empathy and maybe have a little bit more fun and good vibes and humor on online? I'm always in favor of humor. That's where we have a funny mode. But good vibes, camaraderie, humor, you know, like friendship.

2:07:32Yeah, well, I, you know, I don't know AOC. I've only been at one look at the med wool when she was when she attended. And she was wearing this dress. But I can only see one side of it. So it looked like eat the itch, but I don't know what the rest of it said.

2:07:57So what the itch eat the itch. I think we should have a language model complete. What are the possible ways to complete that sentence? And so I guess that that didn't work out well. Well, there's still hope. I'm I root for friendship. Sure, sounds good. More care less than you. You're one of, if not the most famous, wealthy and powerful people in the world, in your positions, difficult to find people you can trust. Trust no one, not even yourself, not trusting yourself. Okay, well, that's you saying I jokingly. But is there some, no one, not even no one. That me an hour, just the thing about that.

2:08:35Maybe some drugs. Maybe Groctor. I mean, is there some aspect of that when just existing in a world where everybody wants something from you? All hard is that to exist in that world. Also, there's a song like that too. Will you petrify it at first? Okay. I forget the rest of the lyrics. But is there, you don't struggle with this? I mean, I know you survived, but like there's ways. It's better if I as a spell in the droid tree. What does it do? Petrify. It turns, it turns the monsters into stone. Oh, like literally. Yeah, for like six seconds. Oh, the seconds. So much math in Diablo that breaks my brain.

2:09:20It's like math, nonstop. I mean, really, you're like laughing at it, but you don't, it can, you can put a huge amount of tension on a mind. Yes, it can be definitely stressful at times. Well, how do you know who you can trust and work in personally? I mean, I guess you look at somebody's track record over time and if they've got a, you know, I guess you kind of use your neural net to assess, you know, someone and neural nets don't feel pain. You're in your own net has caused us this and might, it might heal pain when people betray you. It can make you. I mean, I'm, you know, to be frank, I mean, I've, I've, I've almost never been betrayed.

2:10:04Very, very rare. So, you know, for what it's worth. I guess karma might be good to people. They'll be good to you. Yeah, karma's real. Other people you trust. Let me edit that question. Other people close to you that call you out in your bullshit. Well, the X platform is very helpful for that. So, you're looking for critical feedback. Can it push you like into the extremes more? The extremes of thought make you cynical about human nature in general? I don't think I will be cynical. In fact, I think, you know, my feeling is that one should be, you know, never trust a cynic. The reason is that cynics excuse their own bad behavior by saying everyone does it.

2:11:00Look because they're cynical. So, I always be, it's a red flag if someone is a cynic. A true cynic. Yeah, there's a degree of projection there that's always fun to watch from the outside and enjoy the... Well, it's just apocrystasy. If... But this is an important point that I think people who listen should bear in mind. If somebody is cynical, meaning that they see bad behavior in everyone, it's easy for them to excuse their own bad behavior by saying that everyone does it. It's not true.

2:11:38Most people are kind of medium good. I do wish the people on X will be better at seeing the good in other people's behavior. There seems to be a kind of weight towards seeing the negative. Somehow, the negative is sexier. Interpreting the negative is sexier, more viral. I don't know what that is exactly about human nature. I mean, I find the X platform to be less negative than the legacy media. You know, I mean, if you read sort of a conventional newspaper, it makes you sad, frankly.

2:12:17Whereas, I'd say, on the X platform, I mean, I really get more laughs per day on X than everything else can buy from humans. You know? Laps is one thing. Laps is... It overlaps was not necessarily perfectly overlapping with good vibes and support. Like, celebrating others, for example. Not in a shallow, naive way, but like in an awesome way. Something awesome happened and you celebrate them for it. It feels that that is outweighed by shitting on other people. Now, it's better than mainstream media, but it's still... Yeah, mainstream media is almost relatively negative about everything. It's...

2:13:01I mean, really, the conventional news tries to answer the question, what is the worst thing that I have on Earth today? And it's a big world. So, on any given day, something bad has happened. And a generalization of that, what is the worst perspective I can take on a thing that happened? So, yeah, I don't know. There's just a strong negative bias in the news. I mean, I think it's what... A possible explanation for this is evolutionary.

2:13:31Where bad news, historically, would be potentially fatal. There's lion over there, or there's some other tribe that wants to kill you. Good news. Like we found a patch of berries is nice to have, but not essential. So, our old friend, Tesla Autopilot, it's probably one of the most intelligent real -world AI systems in the world. Right. Do you follow it from the beginning? Yeah, it was one of the most incredible robots in the world and continues to be. It was really exciting. And it was super exciting when it generalized, became more than a robot on four wheels, but a real -world AI system that perceives the world.

2:14:15Yeah. And it can have potentially different embodiments. Well, I mean, the really wild thing about the internet training is that it learns to read... You can read science, but we never told it to read.

2:14:32So, yeah, we never told it what we never told it what a car was or what a person was or a bicycleist. It learned what all those things are, what all the objects are on the road from video, just from watching videos, just like humans. I mean, humans are photons and control controls out. The vast majority of information reaching out brain is from the rise. And you say, well, what's the output? The output is our motorcycles, signals to our sort of fingers and mouth in order to communicate.

2:15:13Photons and controls out. The same is true of the car. But by looking at the sequence of images, you've agreed with Ilya Siskava recently where he talked about LLM forming a world model and basically language is a projection of that wall model onto the sequence of letters and you say... It finds order in these things. It finds a correlative clusters. And so doing, it's like understanding something deep about the world. Yeah. Which is like... That is beautiful. That's how our brain works. Yeah, but it's built... Photons and controls out. And you and that are able to understand that deep meaning in the world.

2:16:02And so the question is how far can it go? And it does seem... Everybody's excited about LLM's, so in the space of self -supervised learning, the space of text. Yeah. It seems like there's a deep similarity between that and what Tothlottipoll is doing. Is it to you basically the same... You are converging. You are converging. I wonder who gets there faster, having a deep understanding of the world. Or they just both naturally converge. They're both headed towards AGI. The Tothlott approach is much more compute efficient. It has to be because we were constrained on this... You rarely have 100 watts.

2:16:53And it's a computer... 144 trillion operations per second. Which sounds like a lot, but it's kind of small potatoes these days. That is a date. But it's understanding the world at a date. It's my turn, 56 values. But there, the path to AGI might have much more significant impact because it's understanding... It'll faster understand the real world than LLM's. And they're more for being able to integrate with the real humans in the real world faster. They're both going to understand the world. But I think Tesla's approach is fundamentally more compute efficient. It had to be. There was no choice.

2:17:42Like, outbrain is very compute efficient. It's very, very energy efficient. So, think of like what does outbrain able to do? You know, there's only about 10 watts of higher brain function. Not counting stuff that's just used to control our body. The thinking part about our brain is less than 10 watts. And those 10 watts can still produce a much better novel than a 10 -megawatt GPU cluster. There's a six -order magnitude difference there.

2:18:15The AIs thus far have gotten to where it is via brute force. Just throwing mass amounts of compute and mass amounts of power at it. So, this is not where it will end up. You know, in general, with any given technology, first try to make it work and then you make it efficient. So, I think we'll find over time that these models gets smaller or are able to produce a sensible output with far less compute, far less power. Tesla is arguably ahead of the game on that front because it has just been forced to try to understand the world with 100 watts of compute. And there are a bunch of fundamental functions that we kind of about to include.

2:19:14So, we have to run them in a bunch of things in emulation. We fixed a bunch of those with hardware 4 and in hardware 5 will be even better.

2:19:26But it does appear at this point that the call will be able to drive better than a human, even with hardware 3 and 100 watts of power. And really, if we really optimize it, it could be probably less than 50 watts. What have you learned about developing optimists, about applying, integrating this kind of real world AI into the space of robotic manipulation, just humanoid robotics. What are some interesting tiny or big things you've understood? I was surprised at the fact that we had to develop every part of the robot ourselves, that there were no off -the -shelf motors, electronics, sensors, like we had to develop everything.

2:20:21We couldn't actually find a source of electric motors for any amount of money. It was not even just the efficient, inexpensive, it's like anything, there's not a... No. The actuators, everything, everything has to be designed from scratch. We tried hard to find anything that was... Because you think of how many electric motors are made in the world. There's like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of electric motor designs.

2:20:55None of them were suitable for a humanoid robot, literally none. So we had to develop our own design, design it specifically for what a humanoid robot needs. A harder was it to design something that can be mass manufactured, it could be relatively inexpensive. I mean, if you compare the boss dynamics at us, it's a very expensive robot. It is designed to be manufactured in the same way they would make a car. And I think ultimately we can make optimists for less than the cost of a car. It should be because if you look at the mass of the robot as much smaller and the car has many actuators in it, the car is more actuators than the robot.

2:21:41But the actuators are kind of interesting in a humanoid robot with fingers. So optimist is really nice hands and fingers. And they could do some interesting manipulation. Soft touch, robotics. I mean, one of the tests goals I have is can it pick up a needle and a thread and thread the needle. Just by looking. How far away we from that, just by looking, just by looking. Maybe a year. Although I go back to I'm optimistic on time. The work that we're doing in the car will translate to the robot. The perception or also the control. No, the controls are different, but the video we're in controls out.

2:22:25The car is robot in four wheels. The optimist is robot with the hands and legs. So you can just... They're very similar. So the entire machinery of the learning process and to end is just you just have a different set of controls. After this we'll figure out how to do things by watching videos. As the saying goes, be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a battle. You know nothing about. Yes, true. What's something difficult you're going through that people don't often see? Trying to feed you, believe it.

2:23:02No, I mean, you know.

2:23:08I mean, my mind is a storm. I don't think most people would want to be me. They may think they don't want to be me, but they don't know. They don't understand.

2:23:28How are you doing? I'm overall okay. The grand scheme of things I can't complain. Do you get lonely? Sometimes, but I... You know, my kids and friends keep me company. So not existential. There are many nights I sleep alone. I don't have to, but I do.

2:24:04Walter Isaacson in this new biography of you wrote about your difficult childhood. Will you ever find forgiveness in your heart for everything that has happened to you in that period of your life?

2:24:19What is forgiveness? I do not... At least I don't think I hope a resentment.

2:24:34So, nothing to forget. No, forgiveness is difficult for people. It seems like you don't harbor the resentment. I mean, I try to think about what is going to affect the future in a good way. And holding onto grudges does not affect the future in a good way. Your father, a proud father, whatever you learn about life from your kids. Those little biological organisms. I mean, developing AI and watching say the next grow is fascinating because they... they are formal parallels than what I would have expected. I mean, I can see his biological neural net making more and more sense of the world. And I can see the digital neural net making more and more sense of the world at the same time.

2:25:37Do you see the beauty and magic in both? Yes.

2:25:44I mean, one of the things with kids is that, you know, you kind of see the world new in their eyes. Near to them, everything is new and fresh. And then when you see that, they make sure that the world is new and fresh. You do too.

2:26:10Well, Elon, I just want to say thank you for your kindness to me and friendship over the years for seeing something you know, silicate like me as you've done for many others. And thank you for having hope for a positive future for humanity and for working your ass off to make it happen. Thank you, Elon. Rex Lex. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Elon Musk. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words that Walter Isaacson wrote about the central philosophy of how Elon approaches difficult problems. The only rules are the ones dictated by the laws of physics.

2:26:52Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.