#406 – Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D’Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness

31:04Who were you upset about? He goes, I'm upset because I just lost a friend. and after 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more. So it goes, looks at it, it goes. I mean, it's your question. What made you think you were ever friends with? Now the guy gets insulted, it goes, did you hear me? He goes, I just told you, 20 years, I've been friends with this guy, why would you say that to me? He said, well, I'll say it again. What makes you think he was your friend? He goes, what ever happened in the 20 years, other than chasing girls, because I figured that went our first, chasing girls and drinking together, and whatever else you're doing out on the street, whatever gave you the inclination that it was a friend.

31:59He goes, whatever, when did he risk himself to be a friend? When was it dangerous to be a friend? What was the friendship tested? When was it uncomfortable to be your friend? And you know what the guy said? You can figure out. You're a scientist. He said, he said, today. And today came for me. And today, today, today, today, today, kept common for me, today. And that day my friend, Billy, and turned out while I was fighting these whatever five six guys and where was Billy? He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was on a roof. He was my best friend.

32:50And so anyway they take me to the hospital and here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did do for me when he got off some roof, thank God. He did. He Lade me on the floor and started putting towels. And the towels, I vaguely remember this. They filled up with blood. I mean, completely like drenched, like you put them under a shower. I heard the bodega on a screamin', screamin', you know, like, wah, you know, whatever. And everyone's screaming and there's chaos. And I'm like, I don't know, I'm calm. Weird. I'm like real calm. And I'm just in this place. One thing's calm. I hear Billy, he's screaming, call the ambulance, call the ambulance.

33:55And nobody's doing none. Everyone's frozen. I'm starting to understand already. People get frozen in situations. People, the fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, just paralyzes people. And I was going into a fear business. I was learning. I was getting a learning, a rally PhD and a... Yeah, and all of a sudden genius, Billy genius, really, street kid, he jumps up on a freaking counter, jumps over the counter, grabs the phone, causes 911, says a cop's been shot and forget about it. It was crazy. All I remember after that, I tell you a couple things, I remember, lights being put onto a stretcher, bounced around, you know, rushed.

34:50I felt everyone's anxiety, except mine. I had none, but I felt everyone's anxiety, everyone's fear. Like it was all around me. It was like, oh, this is interesting. It's kind of interesting. I know that's stupid, but like, well, this is interesting. You really have an eye for fear. That's fascinating. You're really studying it. Well, they I had no choice. I got introduced in a crash course. And they they put me an ambulance. And this is what I remember to your point. I'm sorry. It took so long to get to it. I am although I'll probably do it again before this conversation. But I journey. Yeah, I would get there.

35:30If we get there pops. So I I had a cop say we we we my loser. And I'm like laughing to myself. I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne. John Wayne would have left. But I'm like, lose. You guys are stupid. You know, I didn't say that. But I'm like, lose me. My father's the greatest actor in the freaking world. Yeah. There's not no worry about it. You people, you people all uptight and whacked out here with fear. And there's nothing to worry about. Talk to Alice is my father. So anyway, so they're they're taking me to the and he said, we don't have time. I hear a couple of things every member.

36:17Don't have time. Take them to and they take me to the US public health hospital. Marina hospital was called at the time, but US public health and it's in Stapleton so it's close thank God so they're taking me and I hear the one a radio you know what we're saying is stuff about we gotta we gotta move we gotta move and I'm I start talking and they're telling me don't talk but I like to talk a lot you know And so again fear there's no fear when a fear has been removed It's the only time you really free in life and I know that sounds absurd But really it is the only time you really free in life I was when you close it death When you're devoid of things that normally hold you back, that normally influence you, in ways that are not of the influence that are always positive influence.

37:23Where you're in a pure place, where you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from fear, from anxiety, from joy. I'm like, hey, Joy can screw you up. And you're free from all these things. And I'm in this place. Just hold on. In the back of an ambulance, you're free. Yeah, I'm like, I said, just get me to talk to Atlas. And they say, we don't have time. No, no, no, no, no, you don't know. You have to get to talk to Atlas. You have to get him. This was the, dammit, this was the, you know what I mean? I finally figured, hit the number and I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden, I'm out.

38:01How many stitches did you? Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside it, or whatever. A lot. I look after 50, that number doesn't matter, no more. I know whatever, 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever. You know, so I was fortunate. I was fortunate. And of course, I was fortunate. They told me afterwards that Miss Mike Jogler literally by like a centimeter, I mean, whatever. And so then we wouldn't be having this conversation, obviously. I'm glad you made it. Yeah, I'm kind of glad too. And it just missed my eye, which thank God. It's bad enough I have a squat match for me with a patch. I mean, it's enough that I get this freaking thing.

38:48And look, it goes all the way. You know, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's pretty long. And I don't know. I was out and then somehow I sensed like they had the curtain closed, you know, and it's amazing how vivid this is. And the curtains closed and I see a shadow. I felt the presence I did and I felt him. He's a powerful guy. And I felt him and I just see like a shadow, you know, and all of a sudden the curtain gets pushed back. And I can't really see it's dark and you know out of it, but not completely out of it. And pushes the curtain back, comes in and his hand even knows all bandages, you know, whatever, but his hand surveys and felt safe.

39:51And I felt it felt warm and safe. I was happy. And he got there, you know. Do you say something? Yeah. Yeah. Remember, I gave you a little bit of introduction to my father. I you know him now a little bit, right? What he said about the job. He just said this is what he said. I remember the day when he said, yeah, that I do remember. I don't know if it was six or five people, but this I do remember. Yeah. He said they did a good job. You can have us call the rest of your life Eddie left

40:27Oh man, they did a good job You mentioned cost custom model legendary trainer and you also mentioned turned out he really cared about you in The book you write about a testimony he gave I was hoping I could read it because it speaks to your character, it speaks to his, it's just powerful. The testimony goes, your honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I've spent my whole life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, Heavyweight Champion, Floyd Patterson, and Light Heavyweight Champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character.

41:12I know No things about Teddy Atlas, this court doesn't know. Things you won't find, and has a rest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities of rare, and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes. Vall made mistakes. But I've come to know this boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone who could help a lot of people. Please don't take this young boy's future away. It could be someone special. Let's not lose him. Please. Those are powerful words from powerful men. What have you learned about life from Mr. Customado?

42:02He gave me a quote and he drilled into my head. I became his guy, you know. He loved me. I loved him. He said to me, Teddy, no matter what a man says is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. That's why I learned from Cus. Most of it is BS. And a lot of people say things. You just have to give them a minute to show you eventually what they really met by. I was learned from him that everyone's afraid. Because this way of saying to another great saying, you'll get kicked out of this. Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where fear is actually necessary to survive the situation.

43:12Anyone who says that they're not afraid, they're one of two things. They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor to find out what the Fricks wrong with them. He was right about that. You know, we live in a taboo society where that word to have certainly said it's taboo because it invokes weakness. You know we are just layers of what we so unlearn since we were kids we all are products of those layers. I learned that on my own to some help. At the end of the day you know fear. People will find their way of avoiding that term. So they use the word anxiety. They use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension, you know, a million different, right words.

44:20I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. And fear. Fear causes a lot of things of life. It caused a lot of problems and it also solves a lot of problems without it. We couldn't be great. If we all great and we ever have a chance to be great or at least to aspire to be great. How does fear connect to greatness? That's a profound statement. Without fear we wouldn't be able to be great. Now you couldn't be great without fear because fear allows you to be brave. The most important word for me in this whole conversation, right, neighborhood would be selfishness and it allows you to be for a moment less selfish.

45:14One of the things I learned, I guess, partly on my own, everyone thinks my greatest This teacher was a great teacher, but my greatest teacher was my father, the one who never taught. And I realized one of the things to be better towards great is if you can submit less than we submit. See, one of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things I was always quitting in my business, it's kind of not a good thing. Every business, I think yours yours is just more clear. Yeah, it hurts more. In the moment at least. Yeah, in the moment, you're right. 100 % because something's hurtful a long time afterwards.

46:10And something like regret. We solitary sentence. And man, that's a powerful phrase regret as the solitary sentence. So boy, I you're full of good lines. You know, it wasn't easy to accumulate them. It was a little bit hurtful. But so it was submitless because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submissal, compromise ourselves less, we get to a better place. You know, again, one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you, that wind up hurting you in life and have hurt me in life, one of those boogeymen words is the word of convenience. That's attached to everything.

47:10You know, people, people disappointed not because they want to disappoint you or let you down or betray you because they want to betray you. They do because it's more convenient to do than the other thing. And all men once told me, he said to me, I was trying to, I was trying to rationalize something. I was trying to make someone excuse for something. I was trying to make myself better than I was. I was trying to say it was okay. And he just looked at me and he liked me and he said, Teddy. Tate knows such thing as being a little pregnant. I was like, yeah, because you're pregnant or you're not pregnant.

48:01Either you're real or either you're truthful or not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not tough. Either you're committed or you're not committed. Either you're in or you're out. That applies to a lot of things, including loyalty. That's quite a statement. But the life of humanity for me is loyalty. It's what goes through the veins of, you know, everything has to have some veins in some form and the humanity has veins What runs through the veins of humanity instead of blood to keep it alive is loyalty Without loyalty words without loyalty with dead We're freaking walk with vessels. I never understood what a ghost ship was You know why they think I don't I know what a ghost ship is this people People that empty They got no loyalty Therefore they got no humanity.

48:58Therefore they got nothing. Therefore, freak them. Freak them. Because and you know why they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why? Because it takes, it's hard to be loyal. It's actually hard. I'll be a son of a gun. You know, you're talking about, yeah, sounds great. Give it to me. Give it to me. You paint me with it. It's great. Yeah, loyal. Yeah, I'm going to, yeah, this is going to be, I'm on that team. I'm going to put me in coaching. I'm ready. Okay. Now, you have to, you're going to have to get hurt here. What do you mean get hurt? It's going to be painful. I mean, to be loyal, you know, you're going to be in danger because the person that you committed your loyalty to for a reason because obviously did something in your life, whatever, whatever.

49:50You're actually going to get hurt to be loyal to him. You're actually going to hold on a minute. Wait, hold on a minute coach. Hold on a cool time. I'm here. Let me think about this coach. I might need me more practice. I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Give me a little more practice coach. And it hurts to be loyal. It freaking hurts. But without loyalty, we're go -ships. We got no strength. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got nothing. I agree with you in a deep fundamental sense, but there is pain that comes with that. I have to ask you to introspect on this part of your life because of your value for loyalty.

50:43As people know, you and custom auto trained young Mike Tyson. And the interaction there between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways. Given your value for can you tell the full story of what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt from that?

51:20I guess it was the second time my life I felt betrayed. The first time was when I You know, it was whatever, young 17. And I got arrested. I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever. And supposedly. And the detectives separated us, that's what they do. And you know, they asked me who did whatever, who's gotten this stat, you know, or that particular obviously what we did. And it was me. And I said, you're sure? You know, I'd changed that. You want it because your friends changed it. And these cops, they were nasty, but they were cops. They were the way, you know, you're going to wind up with bikers and they're going to be doing this to you.

52:17And I won't even say the things because then why say them? Figure it out. But, they're trying to get what they're trying to get in. You want to change it? No. But I felt very betrayed. And especially when I was standing in the cell, it's like looking at the airplanes, leave the La Guadilla airport, and then open up his own one. I was making a deal with God that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I'd take a shot. Was party proud that you didn't give up your friends? No. Because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that rules are rules.

53:03You're just loyal and that's it. I didn't even know there was an option. I didn't think there... I know the cops said you could do this, but there was no option. My father never had an option. But the betrayal, the private betrayal was like... And so when cause We were partners me and cause yeah, cuz was retired This stupid kid goes up there and all of a sudden I start training fighters First I want to gloves cuz put me in the gloves. I want to gloves that I had injury whatever But bottom line is I still want to fight. I want to turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan and And cuz had a different plan Because, because was like, you can't and he had his set up a little bit, whatever, without getting into it.

53:54Hey, he did me a favor. And I like to think he knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was. He was doing himself a little bit one too, but he was doing it for the greater cause because he believed in this thing of boxing. He believed that it changed life. He believed that it was worthwhile. He believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook the big picture of boxing. Yeah, he believed it Yeah, he believed that to be a champion You had to be special you had to be smart you had to have character That you had to be a better person and that you couldn't make a champion of you didn't make them a better person first And and that that this you know this could strengthen people the sport could strengthen people in those ways so So he was married to it and he was old and he needed, there was no one in the gym, there was empty and there was a bumper police station, it was crazy.

54:54And he needed an heir to the throne, he needed to pass an answer so on and he saw something and obviously he saw that my career in the box was less important than having me become his answer to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy to continue that we could do a lot more for him and for everyone, not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like to keep it going. Like, it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And because it was afraid that it would die with him. And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of So he saw me as the little bit of the seed to plant for more things to grow before that plant died.

55:45And so he, all the sudden, he said, you can't fight. And I had people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight. And I could. But I couldn't. Right. Because I'd be just loyal. Well, these everything. Yeah, so I couldn't leave because. Yeah. And he kind of knew that. And so, you know, I couldn't leave him. And he said, you have an ability to teach. He said, knowledge means nothing. He said, see these per canager here per canager, per canager, the psychopedias, the whole set in our library. He said, you see these? Yeah, I see them. All the knowledge of the world, whatever. Is in these. All right.

56:26means nothing if you don't have somebody to convey it to people. Otherwise it just sits on a bookshelf and looks good because you have the ability to convey knowledge to people. You're a teacher. You will born to be a teacher. You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter because you don't need to take care of one person. You could take care of all kinds of people and you could do this and you could do that and you could do this. So we go on his venture took a minute because I didn't believe him at first, but finally we I am I'm there. I'm traded fighters. And then he gets me to buy it.

57:07And I was a teacher and I start teaching these kids and there's no one in the German's dad. And all of a sudden there's 10 kids 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, cat's go box and club, Which was never there Now it's there and I'm training fighters. I'm taking down the South Bronx to get experience one of his former fighters No, so whoever's down the South Bronx I'm taking down there to get smokers to get fights when they're ready after I'm wearing out dungarees I'm getting holes in my dog I was fashionable before it was fashionable to have holes in my dogries I could have made a lot of money with that because I was on my knees with these little kids nine years old 10 years old eight years old, 10, 12, 13, 14, all these kids.

57:52And I'm teaching them and I'm building a gym. And Klaus only came once a week because he was semi retired, you know, and he's home. And when he would come once a week, he knew, he couldn't give me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise. And he said, look what that was just doing. He's creating champions. And I was like, whoa. Yeah. Wow, I'm doing good. And then all of a sudden after four years of that, because I was up there seven years, eight years, eight years. After about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that they get this kid in prison and try out in prison from one of the guys that knew Kostya Matt Peresky.

58:34And there's a state, there's a correction officer named Bobby Stewart who used the box and Cus had helped him out a little bit, a little bit. And I knew we had this gym now that was really starting to become something, because we were winning tournaments and everything else. The call was like, we got this kid Mike Tyson. He's 12 years old, he's 190 pounds, and he's a mess. But Bobby still got involved with him, you know, the form of fighter. And he's taken a liking to it and now where he didn't behave at all, and he didn't listen to anyone now. he's listening because Bobby's got a carrot and the carrot is hit, it's a box and now he's at the point now where we want you to take a look you and Teddy.

59:17I bring them down. What would you think when you first saw Mike Tess? Well, I want to see his birth certificate because he 190 pounds 12 years old and all solid. Yeah. Um, you know, really? But yeah, Just physically just as a physical specimen and and big guy. Yeah, and listen Because it was right. I was a teacher. He was right and he was testing me even that day He said what do you think? So I said we're anchoring or not in the bag Who the frickin's about that knocked the bank down? Yeah, we got to put them in with We got no one to put them in that way. I didn't have anyone that way. We got to test them Everyone's got to be tested and So you got to put them in responsibly, but let's put them in just respond But let's put them in Bobby Stewart form of profite at 14 profiles smaller than the Tyson He was when he was fighting was 175 but still he's 28 years old Tyson's 12 come on and and her work will Right, so we do we put him Tyson He recognized the moment.

1:00:23He understood this was an audition. This was a chance You know, this was that TV show change your life and he understood that if he passed the audition He could change possibly changes like it wasn't sure what how could he be sure what exactly but it was better than when he had and So he was on a dish. So he wanted he innately understood what we would want to see ferociousness toughness character the desire, you know, and of course ability. Well, we saw the ability, power, speed, but it was, it was unbridled, it was untaught, it was, it was raw. He didn't know really much at all, but we saw that.

1:01:12But he wanted to show more. He knew that was enough. Again, and need intelligence. He had to show desire, he had to show toughness. And so I was being responsible after two rounds, that's enough. Normally I don't put a guy into boxing to maybe four months, five months, six months, eight months. It depends what it takes to learn on the floor. Before it's responsible to put him in a ring to actually take on incoming live shells instead of blanks. Yeah, and So normally I wouldn't have men and I knew after today he wouldn't be in a ring again if I trained them I would teach him first and then he'd get back in a few months, but for this day.

1:01:53It was the only way It's kind of like I used to make this announcement because loved it He said what's training on fighter? What do you what do you look for training on fighter Teddy? You know, he asked me this ridiculous question just to test me and I say it's like going to make you He was like, oh, he loved it. I said, it's like, I said, it's like, go to Macy's window. And Chris, he goes, what do you mean, Macy's window? You know, Chris was like, boom, boom, boom. So what do you mean, Macy's window? Oh, you go to Macy's window and they got the window where everything you want to see. Everything in there.

1:02:23And it looks great. Oh, everything. And yeah, and then what? Well, then you ask what's in the warehouse? And they tell you nothing. And then Chris says, that's it. That's a trainer. And I wanted to see what was in the warehouse Because they saw what was in a way she's window. I saw the power. It's supposed to speak so He goes to rounds and he gets a bloody nose. Here's the weird thing not weird Very telling we knew what we were doing not breaking but we know what we were doing because He got a bloody nose because he got hit After that bloody he never got another bloody nose. You know why he didn't get hit Because he learned he was still strong, but he was smart enough Anyway, he goes two rounds and I saw and I'm being responsible because if he goes more it's not responsible I saw what I needed to say I saw a speed and saw power so I had ladder system and I saw I didn't believe him I thought he was lying to me.

1:03:21I'm just telling you I Do he was lying trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling tough It didn't matter because question me on and afterwards. What did you see and when I said he goes? Young master, you know, again, he wasn't paying me money. So he had to give me something, right? And that was better than that was currency. Young master, I'm not a master. Whoa, you know, young master, you know what I mean? I felt like that guy, Kung Fu, you know, like in a movie, like Kung Fu, Grasshopper, wouldn't you read it when you could take this out of my hand, you can leave? And that's powerful.

1:03:52Yeah, it was. It worked because knew how to work me. And he did. And it worked. And so, but you know what, I didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit. Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and impacted a lot of people. Yeah, cause you got the job done, but he did it his way. And he did it for a lot of a meery of reasons. And but at the end of the day, it was all good. and I just had to understand that eventually later on. But you do the same. You do things your way and carry some of him in you, some of your father in you.

1:04:38Yeah. That day, you know, that day was funny because when Kassar, what did you see Teddy when him, after two rounds, I got up and I knew I was going to train him. Obviously we weren't going to say no. And he's still out about four months to serve and we're going to work it out. And when I got up on a ring apron, that's my gym. I'm the boss. You know, people later on in a live call me a dictator, you know what I said? Yeah, you're right. I didn't deny. People thought, you mean I'm right? Yeah, I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss. I'm in charge. If I, you wouldn't be here if I was. What the freaking name you for?

1:05:18I'm not freaking a charge. You idiot. Yeah, yeah, they're right. Well, what do you think it's a it's a shared responsibility? No, it's my Responsibility that's why you're here. Yeah, I am in charge You shouldn't be here if you don't understand that So I get up there. I know that I'm gonna be trying them. I gotta show them who the boss is You know being really frank about this so I get up there and say that's it out No, no You know, I was a tight. No, let me go. I want to do another round. I want to do another one. I Said how did you hear what I said? Because I knew that you know, he was gonna test me.

1:05:56It's testing me. I said I said get out He got out, but were you impressed with the fact that you wouldn't keep going? Yes, and I recognized what it really was. So because they asked me what was that? Because I know what the young master saw so because they said what was that? I said it was um Who's an act? He goes you saw that? Then he really want to go I said no. I said he really want to go But he knew that we want him to go and he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy and that's just as good And cuz said damn right. It's just as good all that matters was not not How he got there, but then he got there.

1:06:42Yeah, that's all that matters that he got there that he got to the place to act like a fighter, to do what we want him to do, to be ready to preserver, to go beyond the comfort level, to do another round. He didn't want to, damn right, he didn't want to, but he knew we want him to and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it. And he said, you're right. He goes, now it's going to be your job to teach him, to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit, and we'll get to that place without being coerced to get there, to get to that place on his own. Instead of using the things that he had to use to get to that place today, those things are not going to be available one day.

1:07:35When you, and listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic because it was pretty good. You talk about a man being on his job or money, Lex, he says, how do you think he finishes the sense? He goes, because someday, because, you know, you're gonna have to make sure that he learns these things. Because you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ. What did you just say? He's 12 years old. Yeah. He's been arrested 30 times. He's getting out of jail, out of, you know, juvenile detention, trion. He's a mess and a lot of ways there's a lot of things we find out later a lot of problems weakness It's so he goes and you have that's part of your job That'll be part of your job and but he really said that he and then he turned to him He goes you want to come live with us young man.

1:08:29You want to be your fighter? Yes, I even that because said to me later. What do you think about that? I said And he said, yes. The way he said, yes. Yes, sir. Yeah. And he said, what do you think about that? And we're talking. I said, ain't going to be that polite in a little while down the road. Again, he knew that that's what he felt that he needed to project himself as to present himself out to get to where he want to get to. Because, you know, yeah. Yeah. Did you see what Cust was seeing in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world? No, again, the easiest answer would be yes. Teddy is just, Teddy Hales, genius.

1:09:08Wow, wow, Teddy is, wow. Right. No, no, no. But again, it was my job. And I just, my job, it was simple, simpler than causes, cause knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew, you know, rudiments of boxing, I knew what it took to be a fighter and how to execute it. The steps of executing it. So I took those steps. The rest of it, you get blurred by those other things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. It was just, get them into Jim, make them mentally stronger, make them face things, and teach him how to slip punches. And create holes and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches.

1:09:53This is a cause. And what are you going to do? I'm going to teach them to fill holes and fill them with punches with bad intentions. and that became the monocle. And then Tyson would say that, I'm talking about punch -up of bad intentions. Yes you are. How do you make a mentally tougher? So that part of the job, you said don't get a bloody nose, but the part of the job where it makes it mentally tougher, how you do that. Most important part of the job, to make a face things, make a face where his line to himself where he's submitting, when we start this conversation with submission. and submit less, submit less, submit less every day, submit less.

1:10:35Cause only come to Jim once in a while. And if I had him spawn, he would come because that was his, that was his, that was time. He wait. Now he came, you know, and put him life in cause, cause that life. He was losing a little life, but that made the light bulb bright again. It did. And it was great to see, I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when, when it all went bad and because took the side that the only side he could take, the side of the next heavyweight champion for the world. But he left me, his partner, the young master. And of the second time I'd give a trade and I'm like, for a while I thought everything because taught me, he said to me, was a liar and won't be any part of it anymore.

1:11:22until I got a little more mature and I got a little past that where I was able to understand. I was able to understand that just because so many that you perceived this great in every area is you find there be weak in certain areas. It doesn't mean that they can't still be what they want to hear. It's something that is something that can be understood or forgiven. It's hard, it's hard to get to that place and forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed because because told me the most important thing was loyalty because told me he loved me because I was Because because told people that the reason that he went to court was because I didn't give up anybody Even though men put me in a risk of going to jail for 10 years and he and Because felt that he admired those traits and so I assumed that he he would show the same traits and And he took a deal.

1:12:43He took a deal. He signed the papers that those so -called Feds are my sign. He took a deal to have the future every way chapters to turn down. And to let me go, to sign the deal, So to let me take, you know, take the weight for people who don't know, Mike was in a probabal with a young girl and he pulled the gun on him. I don't know if there is deeper things to say about that situation. But why do you think us made the decision to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from cost, cost a motto, like to break that when he valued loyalty. I served my purpose. I got him to the way he needed to get.

1:13:40Food life back in the gym. If I was in the gym at that particular time, Tyson never would have been in the gym. There would have been no gym to bring him to when they caught up and made that phone call to bring him to the gym. There would have been no activity. There would have been no boxing program. There would have been, you know, no train training them 24 -7 away I was where it caused wasn't capable of doing that at that point in his life. But then again, it's not poor Teddy. I get the benefit of a career, I get the benefit of knowledge, I get the benefit of a life, I get the benefit of learning, of becoming hopefully a better person.

1:14:17I get the benefit of being portrayed again. But... Well, that's a hell of a statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is. You can learn to forgive weakness. You know, when you realize how easy it is to be weak, and when you realize that somebody asked me, how did you get to the point where you could forgive? Right? It's a pretty good question, pretty simple, pretty basic, pretty important, right? And I didn't understand, I understood, but I did understand immediately, for me. I said, how can I not forgive somebody? It becomes easier to learn how to forgive when you're still trying to forgive yourself.

1:15:17When you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for your own inherent weaknesses and betrayals of people like my father in different ways that we forget very easily because it's handy and it's a way of surviving. It's a lot easier to figure it out, rationalize it to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out.

1:15:58And so that helped me figure out how to forgive cause. Because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understand why I did these things, where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came from, that they really existed. it, but they didn't exist for malice. They existed for me not being prepared to understand that I could be stronger, to want to be stronger. And then I looked at Cuss. He wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in life where he had been strong for a lot of his life. He was strong with me. He was strong with a lot of things in his life.

1:16:43And does everyone I want to deserve a pass in life where he got to a place where everything was in one basket, the basket of boxing. He once told me that he never got married because it would be, it would be in selfish to a woman to have gotten married when his whole life was boxing, that he couldn't give to a candy, couldn't give to a hog. He's going and and then I thought about it. He had no money really and Jim Jacobs and Bill Caden took care of the bills so he didn't really need money that way, but The one what was the pay off for that kind of life that kind of commitment that kind of sacrifice Really, what was the pay off the pay off?

1:17:32Was to have champions To have a champion that would keep your name alive life. You know, that word legacy, like what does it mean? Sometimes it's just a word. Sometimes it's more than a word. It's a reprieve. It's a pension plan. It's being given a pension on your way out for the rest of your life. For your life, wherever you're going, you're as what you left behind and for cause it was all about leaving behind a Mark a mark that of champion. Yeah, it was attached to ego. We all have it. Yeah, it was attached to Some selfishness at all, but yeah, it was also attached To wanting to leave something great behind To know that you were part of it that you existed for a reason that that you sacrificed for a reason.

1:18:38And all that freaking pain I brought my father. I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into a righteous search. I made it into I did. And I made it into I was so okay because it was righteous. But it still did damage. It still did damage. It's still hurt people. It's still betrayed my father's trust.

1:19:04and Cusped trade mine, but he didn't do it maliciously. He did it out of again.

1:19:17My father came home, this is how I'm going to connect it. My father came home from from work one night, 12 o 'clock and I was waiting out. And like I said, it was over 19 years old and he got mad at me because go to bed. What are you doing up? I said wait for you wait for you and He said well go to bed. I said no. I What were you doing? I said I was a gospel. You were there Why were you there so late? You know He answered me. He said there was a patient. It was just sick patient. I said And he must be better now because you're his doctor, you know, because my father could fix anything. My father, nothing got in the way of the truth, nothing, nothing, even blown his son's bubble.

1:20:08Matter of fact, he said to me, no, he's not going to get better, he's going to die.

1:20:19And so I said, nine year old kid, you know, you're a kid yourself, it's not in a bad way, but you want with you. And I said, I said two things. First I said, how, how, you're his doctor. How? It can't be. And then I said, I just said it almost angry. Then why were you there? like you should have been here with me. Yeah. And you know what he said to me? Because you don't give up on life. Go to bed and give up on life. And that's I finally connected the dots, this idiot that didn't graduate high school. I finally connected the dots. I was asking Custod to give up on life. You know, you don't give up on life.

1:21:14You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is or forms of life Doesn't have to be a physical form of it. It's life. It's having a reason to be alive It's having a reason to have tomorrow and Cuts just only reason to have tomorrow was to have another heavyweight champ and Teddy atlas Even though we were together all those years and we were partners and we trained together and we were we were You know, the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers Yeah, that's the only thing we didn't do and I felt like we did that yeah without cutting and And now here we are and still and he freaking betrayed me just and and I'm and then all of a sudden I connected the dice.

1:22:01I was like He didn't betray me in a in that cold sense he didn't give up. Give up on life. A year's later Mike Tyson apologized to you. What what what's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story? I want to be the great gracious guy right now say, Oh, I'm so you human that that you know a man's man enough to say sorry that said we're good. I want to be really that's that's that's that's the that's the best Presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there. He's a good guy. He forgives. He's a good guy He's a he's a stand up guy and he's a good guy. I'm not sure If he truly did it For himself that he really did it Because he felt that it was true.

1:23:12But if he's persuaded by other things, he was in the middle. I know I'm taking it too deep. I know, but what am I going to do? He was in the middle of 12 steps with getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps, which is just a commemorable, really it is. And he's taking his steps. The part of the steps was to admit or to apologize to all people you offended in life. Okay but Are you doing it for the 12 steps or you're doing it because you really truly Have come to terms were believing What you did Was that hurtful to me and that it matters to you that it was that hurtful to me and that you were wrong and doing it Did you do it for I know that's deep.

1:23:59I know that I'm a freaking idiot. Um, uh, you're, you're, you're a Teddy freaking your, you're, you should be better than that. He's better than you. Yeah, maybe he is better than me. Maybe he is. Really. Seriously, maybe he is. And, and I took it. He put his hand. I took it. I, we hugged. He said, I love you. I, I, I, yeah. Yeah. I, but I want to believe. But what it cost tell me no matter what a man says is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along. So to this day today Was it really genuine or was it Reflexive of that moment for him to get what he needed to you know for that step or was it truly for what I needed to really, that he really cared that what he did to me caused me to do what I did because I did something that was pretty damn bad to him too.

1:25:03Is he able to deal with that and put that where it has to be put? Is he able to put that or is it just he did something he had to do and maybe he's sorry he did it. I know them. Look, I appreciate it that he, I would have rather been in a private place. Yes, so for people who don't know you were in the middle of commentating a fight and he walked up behind you and he said, you're sorry, he shook your hand, gave you a hug. I didn't know he said, I love you. Yeah, he's emotional. I get emotional a little bit too, but he's emotional and he can be, And he can be I can see why people have a fascination and a love affair with him right now because he was Because you know he was He was the media of the media or that went across the sky that is If they didn't see it their parents told him about it.

1:26:02There was a media that came across the sky one day And and and the media is walking around in the room now and that's the meteorite and then and it actually landed here And that's it right there. And now he's come a long way. And now he's more human. And he's lovable and compassionate. And he cries. And I get the fascinate. I get the love affair. I get it because we're inherently we're people that want to forgive. We're people that we want to be good. And part of being good is to forgive people and to show compassion to people. And so and when somebody's been damaged To acknowledge they've been damaged to acknowledge that you know they've been damaged and you care about them being damaged And how do you show care to admiration?

1:26:55You know in some ways almost through adulation and he's getting adulation from people like you know Which is to a credible level and it's because it's a phenomena But but I get it. I understand it and um I Don't know if he gets it. I don't know if underneath all of this. He's a complex guy. He's the sensitive guy I don't know and I am too And one complex guy talking about another complex guy I don't know if underneath it all where he's really truly at as far as that day that he said that to me Is that part of you that's sorry to Mike? I'm not sorry. Yeah, and that's listen, that's fair. I I know dimensions of Human nature too well to not know that He still has to have certain because I have those strong films what it's not fair for him to have them Then write it fair Now now he could look at it if he was to be held to his word that night that he just acknowledged is that what happened he deserved because of what he, you know, the position he put me in and he put himself in what he did.

1:28:13And I wouldn't change nothing, you know, still you're, you don't regret pulling the gun out of him. I regret that I had to. Yeah. I regret very much that I had to, that, I regret very much. I'm across the line. I hated him for putting me in that position. That, that, you know, how dare he think that somebody feels that that trivial, that the way I would feel about myself and the way the girl would feel about herself, that was 11 years old at the time, how she would feel about herself, how dare they think it's that trivial that, you know, that I shouldn't be ready to freaking to both die and kill for that.

1:28:57Why didn't custom auto see it in a deeper way and talk through it? The word came back to me, but of course, what does it mean? But the word came back to me that Cust said you were right, but if he took the side of Teddy, he would destroy potentially a great fighter. Why do you think that? Okay. If you were to try to understand the point he was making, why is that true? Isn't the part of greatness that you said is building the character of knowing what is right? What, you know, because he was afraid to go there where he used to not be afraid. Because it's kind of like you're never afraid of going up.

1:29:42And I get it. You know, when I try to fight it now, if I come out of retirement, and I try to fight it out. I feel in camp like I feel like I'm on death row every day that every day. I try to retrace my memory and say, did I feel this way when it was young? I don't remember feeling this way. I feel every day a dreadful feeling that if I don't get this right, I portrayed everything. I portrayed the fighters trust. I portrayed what I'm supposed to be. And then one day I tried to figure it out. Why do I feel this way so intense? I was in camp for two months training a guy for the world title a couple of few years ago fighting a hottest puncher in the world at the time and Donner Stevenson and the fight was Ukrainian and I was you know brought into training for that fight And he trusted me and changed his whole style trusted me.

1:30:38Oh my god. I went to bed every night like praying and dread, waking up, dread my stomach down to here, every day saying, what if I fail him? What if everything that I told him was gonna happen? Don't happen. What if I fail him? What if he trusted me and I betrayed that trust? And the thing was the, the cost was, he used to be stronger than that. And then I tried to figure it out why I got this way. And why it was so dreadful to me and why I felt like I was on that row every day trying to find it like did I do enough? They do right well well Will we accomplish what we we accomplished what I promised them we would accomplish what I keep my word and And then I started thinking what how did I become this week?

1:31:28How did I think and become I was a pretty strong Ficken guy How did I become this week and then finally I think I figured it out? You know why? Because I was always working to get up But once I finally got up now it was looking down And I finally hit me. I said, I didn't want to lose. I said, there was not no lose on my way up. Now, a sudden there's something to lose when you're up there. And you're looking down. And that's where he was. And that's where it cost was. Because, because was at the end of his rope, he was, he accomplished two world champs, all this stuff, right? Everything. He, and, and, and he did it right.

1:32:03Now, all of a sudden, it wasn't about moving forward. It was about not falling down. Holy cow. I was like, I got it because I got it. I got it. You didn't want to fall down. Oh my God. You didn't want to fall and he This was his last chance. You don't give up on life. This was his last chance to live forever To make everything he did worth while to have the youngest have it wasn't just heavyweight change. You got to remember He was the youngest heavyweight champ ever and to have dad It was okay to die now and Has loyalty So a name Teddy Atlas gonna get in a way of dad That's a tidal wave that they ain't no war that's been made high enough to stop that tidal wave and now I stopped myself Yeah, there is But, but it would have to be all for a big one.

1:33:09And you know what? Who will we to say that we could ever build that wall that big? Who is any of it? Who might it say? Do you think if you were to put yourself in the shoes of custom auto, can you see yourself having the big enough wall where you would choose loyalty? Now if I answer the way I feel, then I'm making myself John Wayne again. You don't have to answer that. I think loyalty is important. No matter what a man says, what he does in the end, that he intends to do all along. I didn't make that up, I'll cussed it. And when this whole went down, those words came freaking echoing into my freaking ears.

1:33:55I didn't want them. Cotton doesn't help. And they freaking kept coming into my ears. And what do you think? Still a immature kid at the time. You know, I was young. Still an immature kid at the time. What the f**k do you think my response was? You will full of... But I got past that. Do you forgive us? Have you found forgiveness? I'm a pianist. Listen, I forgive him because he gave me more than he took away from me. If I can, what kind of man am I to, if I can at least acknowledge that and be grateful for that? He gave me more than he took from me and I'm grateful for that. I'm also grateful for what I gave him that I did give him some.

1:34:53And at that point in his life, you know, a place to still have test tubes and chemistry experiments. You know, a laboratory where he could still create great fighter. And I helped give him that. I helped. I was part of that lab. and making sure that lab was there and just that there was the existence of test tubes in a place because you can't freaking tube experiments without test tubes. Now you're the scientist with the test tubes? Yeah, I guess so and I just hope that what I said earlier is really my thread through this whole thing when you say, can you forgive us?

1:35:52I'm still trying to forgive myself and if I can have hope that I can forgive myself, I think that hope has to start with the power to forgive someone else. How can I ever I'll forgive myself for all my failings and figure it out. If I can't start and practice it by forgiving someone else for some short comics. And for me, that's that's that's the only sense of sometimes a very hard thing to make sense of that's my north star. That's my compass. Because she's to make me laugh. You know me and him did everything together. We dry and we get lost in a city. We get lost in a bra and he get off frustrated.

1:36:49He said, Atlas, you know, great trainer, but you turn you around, you spin you around and you're lost. And I said, me or we. And because I was the only one who would argue with him. And it was really funny sometimes. And I said, we owe me. We owe, he goes, I don't care. Because you're lost. I'm lost. What are you talking about? And then all of a sudden, because I couldn't give in. He just couldn't admit. He couldn't give in. You know what he said to me? All of a sudden, he goes, when I was an army, if I had a compass, I could get out of the woods. I said, when I'm in the woods, And when I know I mean we don't have a compass, because, because, just, just, don't argue with me.

1:37:34One time we're driving, I want to get back to Katskel, we just finished at the Bronx. It's been a long day, you know, visiting the murderous houses and everything else that he took me through for the 1800 time. And, and he would fall asleep, you know, he was getting older and he, and he was just fall asleep in the car. So what do you think? I went a little faster, right? Because before he went to sleep, he said, don't speed. So I don't consider myself, I try to be an honest guy, and I try to be a freaking, but, yeah, you know, it was a five or six, what did I say earlier? Try to do less submitting.

1:38:17Yeah, really? In all phases, try to submit a little less, try to lie a little less today, a little less. It's got to get stronger. Try to get a little better. So here we are and we drive and all of a sudden he's saying, what did I do? 80, 75? Probably. Probably did. You know, whatever. And all of a sudden he wakes up. He was speeding. I lie. No, I wasn't. Don't lie. I'm not lying. You lied again. You were speeding. Now come on. This guy, you know what I mean? He's unbelievable. So I got a freaking, you know, he's the, he's David Copperfield. I want to know the trick. I want to know how he freaking, he made this thing disappear.

1:39:14So I said, well you talk, how do you know? He goes, because I timed you. I looked at the post number and I'm like, what? I looked at the post number on the side of the road, where we were, whatever milder. And I never knew they even existed. I look and I said, yeah, there's little numbers. He started timing. And he goes, yeah, he timed it. And he looked, he goes, we couldn't have got from here today. And not a time unless you were going 75 miles an hour. And I'm like, all right, I'm with my man. All right, I'm impressed. Don't try to get the mileage to my power part, right? It's enough that you got me.

1:39:54That's enough. I'm, yeah, I said, and I'm not going to do that no one, you know, and just, he helped me in crazy ways where there would be times where I wanted to be, you know, where you wanted to be whatever, right? Convenient, weak, submit, right? And then all of a sudden, in my mind, I was there with the stopwatch.

1:40:24And I'd be like, you know, no, you know, way I was about to say yes to whatever that particular situation was.

1:40:45Yes, you're great. Thank you

1:40:51Just for the record never had a phone call like this. It's hotel security The question is he asked me is are you okay, sir? Are you okay? Are we okay? I think so I think so so far. Yeah, you know, I can only go like so far It's kind of like that old joke, you know where the guy some soft empire state building Yeah, he's going you know, Asia floor 70 floor 60 floor 50 and it gets passed to 50 floor and they're looking about the window and he goes, how am I doing? So far so good. I don't know where it's going to end, but um, so Mike Desson is considered by me to be one of the great boxers. One of the greatest boxers of all time.

1:41:35Heavyweight boxers. What do you think on the positive side made him great? I don't know if he was ever great. I know he was sensational. I know he was the greatest mix of maybe speed and power ever. I know he was one of the greatest punches for me. The side of the plate left or right. There's been great punches with just the right hand like Ernie Schavers and Deante Wilde and Max Bear. I don't know if there's ever been anyone who could punch as good as he did on either side with either hand other than Joe Lewis and a few others. I don't know if there's ever been such a combination of speed and power to that pure level that he had.

1:42:17And it was a pure level. I don't know. There was ever as good a fighter as Tyson was for maybe one night. He was great. He wasn't tested, but he might have been ready to be tested at one night against Michael Springs. When he took him apart 90 seconds, I think I saw great fighter that night. I don't think you can be great unless you have all the requirements of being great. What does it take to be a great fighter? Truly great.

1:42:54To not rely on someone's house this weakness to be strong, to be strong on your too often he relied on other people's weakness whether it's to by being intimidated or whether it's because his talent was so much greater than theirs that it was like putting a monster truck in there with a Volkswagen and the Volkswagen was going to get crushed. No matter how much horsepower the Volkswagen might have had under the hood and you put under the hood. It was going to get crushed. A monster truck was not going to allow it to be a contest. And to be able to find a way when your talent wasn't enough. He didn't find the way when his talent wasn't enough.

1:43:41And I'm not making statements if I'm not ready to put some evidence, you know like if we were in a courtroom exhibit a When he fought when he fought Buster Douglas Buster Douglas matched his will and didn't get integrity stood up to him He didn't do what most people did he didn't submit even a little bit not that night. He had in the past But Matt Knight didn't why because Buster had Post that a sicker weapon that night, his mother. Post his mother died a few months previous, he loved his mother very much. Post had always had talent, big heavyweight, talented, copounch, technically salad. It was all those things.

1:44:29Always was, but he quit and fights. He did less than he should have done. He never lived up to his ability. He gave in, he submitted. He wasn't strong enough. He never had a reason to be strong enough. When his mother died, he had a reason. Nothing could hurt him as much as his mother dying hurt him. Mike Tyson included. That night, Mike Tyson could not hurt him as much as his mother had hurt and by dying. That night, he had a reason to be strong for his mother and he was strong. He was everything he was supposed to be. And more. And he stood up to Mike. And Mike, for the first time, maybe ever, was in a fight where he had to overcome some.

1:45:11Where he had to be more than talented, more than a puncture, more than a guy with scintillating speed. And he wasn't. And then that night got followed by another night with Holyfield. Holyfield wasn't as town that is him, as big as a bunch of puncture. But Holyfield had the character. He was stronger ways to tie. He wasn't strong. He was stronger in a way where he could find a way. He was willing to find a way. He's willing to go to the cliff to truly die before he submitted. A lot of stuff is just worth. They're gonna have to carry me out on the shield. Yeah, sure. Okay. Yeah until it comes time to be carried out on the shield Sometimes there's people that actually mean it You think Mike didn't have that Well, all right He let's just say arbitrarily.

1:46:13I don't have his record from me. Let's say it was 55 and five. I know he had about five losses All right, let's say it was 55 and five right? A lot of narcos I have a saying a fight's not a fight until there's something to overcome until then it's just an athletic Exhibition contest. Yeah, who's a better athlete? Who's got more quick twitch fibers? Who's who who's more the value isn't better this? Who's who's more developed in those physical areas? But a fight is not a fight until there's something to overcome. Okay So if you go by my definition, not websters, my definition, but they think me in something.

1:46:59My title was only in five fights in his life. The five fights where there was something to overcome. And he didn't overcome it. Now I know people hate me for this, including Tyson. I understand hate me. Oh, you're a hater because you won't with him. You didn't make the money because this because that because you got the train. I think I'm better than that. I hope I'm better than that. I believe I'm better than that. I'm not a hater. I broke his fight for 25 years on ESPN where there was some people in the corner I did not like. And if they did a good job, this guy's doing a great job. And then there were guys that I liked and I had a friend's shipper.

1:47:41He messed up. We won't friends no more. Friendship gotta be tested. Remember that? So we won't friends no more. But why did I do that? Because it was my job. It was more important for me when it's all over with the only thing you're left with is I mean we're going to be dust all of us right? The only thing we're left with is what carries on a reputation. You know legacy whatever that is but our reputation. So we're left with and that's all our kids are left with. I want it to be as good as it can be. I've always had a ability. I've done a lot things long and I've had a lot of lacking. But the one strength I've had, I had a strength, is to understand somehow to us Moses, I guess, to learn the lesson that was important is not words in front of you for those five seconds for that moment in life.

1:48:58It's what's left behind you when those five seconds are gone. Whatever it is that you're dealing with, whatever that moment is, that moment, what you do in that moment, the action of that moment is going to stay with you and be you. It's going to become you. What what you face for that moment.

1:49:32It's gone. It's gone in the air in an instant. It's gone. It's done. Whether you think whether you stand up there and you get shot in the head and the guy freaking blows your brains out or you're freaking you're you stand up or you're fighting a guy who's like an unscary guy to fight, but your fight them and your beat them or he beats you up. But how you represented yourself in that moment is all that matters. That's going to look what happened. Don't matter. It don't matter that you guys shot in the head. I know that sounds absurd. But if you believed that was important to stand up and take the chance to get shot in a freaking head rather than to live like an empty vessel.

1:50:26You know what? That's all the freaking matters. And somehow that guy freaking wrapped into this freaking head of mine. Like that's what matters. That's all the matters. You know how many times I went and I, I, the things of whether it was this one with I didn't want to be there. I was scared to death. But I was more scared. I was more scared living with a grette. How I would have felt. Yeah. I don't want to be in solitary confinement of a life with that freaking guy in the cell next to me called regret. I don't think I want to be next to that guy. If I want to freaking go down that road, I'll watch Papillon.

1:51:08You know what I mean? and I get my fill from that, but I don't want to freaking live it. I'm afraid of what my chosen to think of me if I fail in those areas. Why? Because that's forever. When I'm closing my eyes for last time, I don't want to have that fear. I don't want to have that fear. You know, when I'm going down there or when I'm going up there, You know, I left because I was around guys years ago that used to when we talk about that, you know, and just, you know, and We get a kick out of this one guy who've been around the block a few times When he say they tell you I ain't worried about that.

1:51:59I got a friend in both places That's a good line and I And I thought it was a I thought it was good. Listen, my Tyson, you want me to say it was a great fighter? Then you want me to betray what I really, you know what I mean? You want me to do that? I ain't doing it for, listen, I could do it to be a bigotety atlas and I know it would work for me. I know it would be a great promotional work for me. I know it would make me more popular in certain areas. I know it. I'm not that dumb. Not that dumb. But I also know what else it would do to me. And I don't want it to do that to me. I think he was a great talent.

1:52:43I think maybe the night with Michael Spinks, maybe the night with my, maybe he could have been that fighter. Maybe he could, but he didn't really get tested. But he might have been ready no matter what. I have to be tested that night. That's how good he was. That's how, even though it was a guy who used to be a light heavyweight, I get it. But we're still a guy who beat Larry Holmes, who still had something left, Michael Spinks. So at a great puncher and an Olympic gold medalist, but at a special fighter one of the great light heavyweights of all time You know what Mike Tyson was he was a meteor He was a meteor that struck a cross and not too many meteor skis and we still talk about him Mm -hmm and and unlike hell is covered he came back and And he's walking around and he's he has become greater after his career more loved, more beloved, more odd and he's been forgiven.

1:53:35He found the fountain of forgiveness. I don't know, I wish I could find that where he has been forgotten for all his shortcomings, all the things that he may have done may not have done. We don't know, only him and God know. But he's been forgiven of all that and he's been not only forgiven. He's raised above it and and above that and been brought above that. He's been brought to the pyramids of the greatest athletes that in the world. In every way, in every way as a person, as a fighter, as a historian, as a figure, as a celebrity. I mean, it's even a philosopher. Everything. So I will take it back.

1:54:31All right. Oh, you guys out there. You forgive me. He's the greatest of all time. If you encapsulate all that, if you encapsulate everything, I just tried to describe an explain. If you put that all, he's the greatest of all time. Yeah, he is. But he still might be old five. You know record of 55 fights he might and Teddy Atlas's book Again, I got friends at both places. So it's okay. Where have I go? I have company somebody there will like me Despite me saying this he might be on five because of five fights where there was something to overcome Which really defines a fight? He came he didn't find the way Okay.

1:55:17Let me ask Teddy Atlas to introspect on the human nature here. It's part of the complexities of your feelings on this whole thing is that you know to some degree that if you were coaching Mike Tyson, he could be truly great. I know, Cole, I'm going to cut you right off because you has a million dollar question on which you didn't, but you did. You did. Because that's why I get paid. Why you get paid? I get it. You said the words out my mouth. That's why you all where you are. And that's why I'm here. The humility. I'm going to, I'm going to, again, full disclosure. It's important, right? I'm going to cheat.

1:56:03I'm going to take some of Cuss's wisdom. All right, a little bit of mine. Yeah. Um, Coast told somebody that if Teddy Atlas got his way, he might have been a better person, but we would have risked him not being a great fighter. Now I believe, and I thought, it's just, and I think he did up to that point in his life, that part of your strength of character made you a great fighter. and truly a great fighter and part of that battle to be a better person that that fight if you will, to be a better person to overcome the things to be a better person. Part of that fire you have to go through to be a better person.

1:56:50I really truly bought into it and I'm in for life. That is really the only way to be a great fighter. And I don't think that's what Kuzment. I thought he meant, I think he meant that Kuz knew more than I did of what was about to come and what would come and what the world was, but how people would try to steal him, how people would take him, how people would steal his guy.

1:57:26The last thing he had, really, the thing that he lived for, because he lived to have another heavyweight champ. The greatest fight ever, Cousin Cousin's mind, he could be. And I believe that Cousin knew that he could perform a guy that had the ability to be the greatest fight ever without fully completing the mission of what it takes to really be great, but that he wouldn't be around to have to witness it. And that he wouldn't, he was well, he would, uh, man, this is awful. He's willing to concede that he might be dead in order to have eternal life in order to have greatness. Which because does have greatness and part of that greatness is attached to Tyson and he deserves it.

1:58:22He deserved it. Constable is a great man. And I wouldn't be here partly without him. But that was part of the calculation. I know that's deep. And I know that's, well, God, I hate myself right now. But um,

1:58:40But because he knew he was getting out free. He knew he was going to not have to be there. He was getting off easy. I'll tell you how do you say someone's going to be dead to get off easy? Well, I'll say it again. Keyshield didn't hear me. All right. He was going to get off easy and not have to face where he came up short because he did his job because Because he put forward the greatest fight of all time and you guys screwed it up. And he knew that that might happen, but you guys screwed it up. And whatever that's your fault, that's on. I'll tell you that Tyson would be mad at us, but that's on Tyson.

1:59:22How can you say that, Teddy? He loved me. I'm not saying he didn't love you, but he loved him. He loved some other stuff, too. And I don't know if Tyson could ever come to Cripp's light with that. and it's not his job too. But it's my job not to hide from it. I know custom dimensions that other people just only think they know. The Kastna, the Kastna, the Samadhanam Sal, they, they, they, he reflected the introspective message to me. Kastna guides me. My wife was pregnant. We were living an apartment in Catskaw, in Kortiskaw, we went through all this, you know, and I was getting ready to move to stand out.

2:00:07And we stood with that for a little while before we did, you know, after all this went down. He sent a guy to me to the house, secret, whatever you want to call it, my wife, me. So I listened to him. Because said, if you leave, I'm a messenger, you know, whatever. If you leave, this was in the aftermath of what the God knows thing. You gotta remember, the text was a word of the state. He was putting causes custody, cause was looking to adopt him. Five years' recent, so he had control and he loved him. How dare I say anything less I won't But it made sense too But it was awarded a state still do you know what that means?

2:00:59There's rules Means the state still overlooking it. Mm -hmm. Have you ain't living the right life? You know You gotta remember he came out of you know, he came out of a jail So reform school, but if you ain't living with like he could be taken away from cause What's not living the right life? Well, he he wasn't a school normal. They didn't know about it. Um, he had some things that were going on. We won't get into that right now in school and different things whatever. And he had his train of put a gun to his head. That is so good. If a report came back to them that that happened, he would have been taken away from cause.

2:01:41That couldn't happen. Look, nobody knows this. I talk about it a little bit, but never probably, because why would I, I don't know, why am I doing it now? I don't know, because I am, because it's now, because it's now, maybe, maybe because it's now. I don't know. So he sent this man that, you know, that obviously we both knew, and he said, he is the deal Teddy. If no talk about this, once it's, you know, Disappeared basically you leave and he will give you 5 % his word Can you imagine he would? He will give you 5 % of Tyson's earnings for the rest of his career and But I don't regret it one bit because it wouldn't happen anyway.

2:02:29See that's where I I could be honest with my people So stand up guy because I don't shove it with a you know You know, in that place and tell cause there's shove it in that freaking place, you know, I was mad. Teddy, Teddy, don't get angry. Don't get angry. Are you out of you serious? Get out of here. Tell him to go shove it over. And you know, my wife is like, oh, but And then people like, why didn't you take the deal? It wasn't a deal. It was an escape clause. for cuss. It was a it was a it was an insurance policy that his you know this kid wouldn't be taking away from and thank God he wasn't I wasn't gonna go and say nothing they didn't have to worry about cuss for God who I was cuss for God why he went to court for me because of those because of those characteristics that he said he loved and he noticed and that he admired I didn't lose those characters.

2:03:33He forgot that that was me. He forgot who he was talking to. He didn't have to do that How about that's why I told him to shove it up is that not because of the other insult And then and then when people said to me all you would stand up because it was around a little bit It was around in the circles and then we'll be all oh stand up Teddy. He didn't care about the money I said stand up Teddy What are you talking about? How about just realistic, Teddy? How about I live in a real world that I was never gonna get that money? So I'm saying, I'm standing up to something that I knew never existed. So I ain't stand up, not that way.

2:04:13I am in other ways maybe, but don't put a medal on my chest for that. Because that never existed. It was never meant to exist. But he didn't even understand. That was the one thing that really disappointed me because I was like, because you really allowed this to get to you. Where you allowed it to really fog up your thinking to the point where you're smarter than that. You're better than that. That you would actually think you got a freaking off for me. A freaking pieces of silver. You really think that that's what you freak you like all that you told me that you love me and that we You have a some young master and all this and and you think you were gonna buy me And I was gonna and that was gonna keep me quiet How about I will keep quiet because I would always keep quiet So he thought maybe you might betray him It's not interesting.

2:05:19Yeah Why did he think that? No, no really fear. Yeah, but yeah fears at the essence of everything is a connected with everything fear of losing what he was gonna lose But it was more than fear It was him not believing in the things that he told me believed in He didn't even know that He believed in me because I was a stand up guy because I because I didn't sell myself because because I you know I didn't think in turn evidence I didn't make it deal I didn't do I've not and that's why he went to court that's why he stood up for me and I appreciate it and that was what he lived by and that was his you know those were the blocks of being a man oh so much for those blocks well it's like you said loyalty requires There's, you know, he would have had to take a risk on losing immortality that he would achieve by creating a great, have you won a championship?

2:06:23A hundred percent. But the only way you ever find out if somebody is hard, it's hard. It's the test. And it was cussed. This is Shakespearean, you know, this story. Cussed, told me, cussed, and it just coming different forms. Yeah. I said, all right, cussed. This was his test. And some people fast this test because they're able to pass that test because it's not really a test, not for them because it doesn't speak to their weakness. But it's the test that speaks to the weakness. That's the one. So this one, I get it. I get what it spoke to because, you know what? At the end of the day, I forgive you and I feel bad for you.

2:07:12I feel bad that you were putting that position after you lived your life that way, and that you taught that and you preached that from the mountain tops, that you had to be,

2:07:30that you had to be, I'm not going to use the word, but that you had to fail yourself and that you had to somehow know that before you died. I just prayed that you didn't know that. And you still don't know that because you were great. You were great. And you've given me some.

2:08:00You know, you give me some to to aspire to us to try to Trying to be last week. Trying to be better. And try to be as good as you want it to be. I wish I can someday. More importantly, I wish I could make my father feel good up there.

2:08:39Your grandfather now. Yeah, for your grandchildren. What if you give him advice on how to live a life they can be proud of?

2:08:54Just do everything you can to the best of your ability every day to like yourself. Thank you for yourself a reason to actually say I'd like to be friends with that guy. is loyalty one of the reasons one of the things that aspire to. Loyalty is your chance to have a fulfilled life. Loyalty is your chance to have strength, to have all the things you need to have a good life, to be a good parent, be a good husband, be a good grandfather, hopefully be a good role model.

2:09:54Royalty is,

2:10:02if you could find something to drink, to take into your body, to make you prepared for life to be all the things that you want to be, to be strong and up to be those things, loyalty would be the thing you would drink. And when I say loyal, I mean unequivocally, I mean, you know, unconditionally, not conveniently. Obviously, you know that. If you could be loyal, you could be a good person. You could be a person that you would actually like to be around, because you could be a person, you could rely on. And I think that's one of the greatest assets that a human being can have. And what do you do when you're betrayed?

2:10:56How do you overcome that?

2:11:00You think of what you learned from it. Use it as a roadmap to remember and to think back of how you got there. Now you got to the place where you got the trade and how that person got to that place. Try to remember that in your own journey. As it for you, mage, you cynical. Like how do you try, how do you take the leap of trust towards people again and again after that? Just by remembering that I'm still trying to forgive myself for the things that I came up short with. And if I haven't figured that out yet, it's probably okay to say they didn't figure it out yet. they didn't figure it out. And if I couldn't figure it out, and I'm still trying to figure it out, maybe I could get over that initial stabbing of what it feels like.

2:12:13It does feel kind of like a stabbing that you feel when you betrayed initially and that you could only think of anger, revenge, hatred. I know things, I'm not proud of that but I felt all those things. And I still feel them sometimes. And then I go back and say, hey, you're still working at forgiving yourself for some things. Try to remember that kid. I mean, it's an important thing. Forgetfulness is pretty important too. And I'm trying to remember why we forget. Why do we forget? Because it wasn't something you felt proud of.

2:13:03You think about your death? Are you afraid of it? You know, it's funny you asked that. I never used to think about it.

2:13:17I know people in both places, you know. I know you gotta cover. You're gonna be all right. Don't forget that. I know people in both places. Yeah. Both neighborhoods. I, I, I, um, I've been, I've been given credit for being brave in certain spots in life. I hope I can be brave when it comes time to leave life. I hope I can be. You know, and that's, you know, that's just, that's real and honest as you can be about it. I hope I can be. You know, so far so good. You know, when I've had to be certain things that would get to freaking death. I found the way to beat them for the most part. And so I figured when that day comes, I figured that out too.

2:14:34It's gonna be another test, maybe the last one. Teddy, it's a huge honor to talk to you. But it's my pleasure. Thank you for being the human you are for being honest, honest about the full range of human nature. And thank you for talking today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Teddy Atlas. To support the spot guest, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali. I hated every minute of training, but I said don't quit. So for now, and live the rest of your life as a champion.

2:15:18Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.